How many have facial hair and still go out?

[Billie Jean]

I do. I've been out dressed a few times to a club and wear a goatee, that is up til yesterday when trimming I made a slip. I still have my mustache. I'm undecided as to shaving it off too. Billie Jean

[NathalieX66]

Hope I',m not too judgemental here.
In New York City where I'm nearly at, people percieve such things as being edgy, folks like that kind of stuff here. The variation of ideas is what propels this planet forward, thankfully. You rule in my book. :thumbsup:
I'm someone who wants/needs to be a girl....sometimes.
Therefore I've taken steps to remove the beard permanently via laser and electolysis. Don't get too excited, my beard was so heavy it was making doing makeup too challenging and problematic when I go out in public. My company president was ridiculing me in company meetings after a day of stubble (it was so dark & heavy) , so I went and did something about it. I am happy now.

[Launa]

I hate facial hair unless I'm feeling like a dude for the day. I would consider electrolysis one day down the road

[JessHaust]

I've been out dressed a few times to a club and wear a goatee

I'm guessing that 'passing' does not interest you?

[Billie Jean]

I'm guessing that 'passing' does not interest you?The facial hair is much a part of my male persona. Not everyone who dresses cares about passing, I just like to wear dresses. My ex wife did my makeup for me a couple of times and I looked good but not that passable. However when I was around 13 or 14 I was more passable and wore my sisters clothes and put on makeup. She had the same hair color as me and a partial wig that made me look like her. After the long post, what I'm trying to say is I'm not that passable but still enjoy going out in a dress. I still put on makeup every now and then. I am toying with the Idea of doing it sans the facial hair. Billie Jean

[JessHaust]

Well, wether I pass or not, I'm trying to emulate what I perseve as a pretty woman, and as such I would think it would work better with out the facial hair.
I wore a goatee for many years, at the same time I supressed my CD feelings. The goatee helped to re-emforce the supression. By having it, I had a reason why I could not dress. It's gone now, and so is the supression.

[Billie Jean]

I probably would go out more often without the goatee Jess. From your avatar you look as if you do a good job of emulating a pretty woman. I have had the beard for most of my adult life shaving it off 3 or 4 times but the stache I've had since I was 19. I think that you are great for doing it your own way and who knows maybe I'll become clean shaven too. I haven't had any problem from others when out, infact some of the GGs at the club gave me compliments and quite a few hugs. Billie Jean

[JessHaust]

I went 30 years with mine and I know its hard to part with. If you do go clean, keep in mind that at first it will look really bad to you, but hang in there. Within a week or so you will get used to the new look. Now I look back at old pictures and think I look bad with the goatee, at the time I thought it looked great.

[Sara Jessica]

This is a tough one.

I admit difficulty in getting my head around the whole facial hair and female clothing thing. Not so much because I don't "get" it, I do. It's simply another variation of expression. But the issue I have is that when we step into the public eye, we are a representation of our entire community whether we like it or not. The Muggles will have perceptions and make value judgments which could affect how they perceive anyone who is full time and doesn't have the option to take off the clothing and revert to their comfortable male mode.

There have been discussions with others in these pages who present pretty much as guys but incorporate a fair amount of female clothing into their presentation without going the entire hair & makeup route. Again, I admitted way back when my difficulty in understanding this but I think I managed to come around. I think one big difference is the facial hair thing. While these other individuals come across as being mostly androgynous in their presentation, whether it be a more utilitarian version of a skirt with flat boots or perhaps something more overtly feminine, the difference was facial hair, or lack thereof. That is the crux of the matter, that facial hair and female clothing really adds to more of a genderf*#^ look in the eyes of the outside world.

Androgynous and gender*#^ are two very different things in my book. I'm not trying to be judgmental. I'm simply being honest with my opinion and trying to keep an open mind. Yet I fear that such presentation may never mesh with my world view as to how our actions do in fact affect others who are full time.

[Michelle 51]

I had a mustache for 36 yrs and a goatee for the last 10 of those.My daughters one who is 35 had never seen me without a mustache.Needed to go out more than the macho look so shaved it off to go out for the first time a yr ago and said I'll grow it back.Never have.People comment quite often who haven't seen me for awhile that I look 10 yrs younger now because a lot of gray was showing up in it so it was a win-win deal.Wife hates me clean shaven but she's getting over it.

[BillieJoEllen]

I've seen three men around the city who go out dressed and all have a full beard. Personally I think when that is being done it sort of reflects badly on our community. Trying not to be too judgemental. Just saying.....

[Miranda-E]

I've seen three men around the city who go out dressed and all have a full beard. Personally I think when that is being done it sort of reflects badly on our community. Trying not to be too judgemental. Just saying.....

How were the 3 men acting that reflected badly?

[Acastina]

I do. I've been out dressed a few times to a club and wear a goatee, that is up til yesterday when trimming I made a slip. I still have my mustache. I'm undecided as to shaving it off too. Billie Jean

I'm reminded of an old Shel Silverstein cartoon in Playboy years ago, a feature about the gay community on Fire Island, NY. Two guys talking, one with his back turned. His friend says, "On the one hand, if you want to be a man, you've got to stop running around in dresses and high heels and makeup and such. On the other hand, if you want to be a woman, the mustache has to go."

[Marleena]

I've had a moustache since about 16, facial hair since then. I had a goatee until recently. Shaved my face clean about 3 weeks ago, I started playing with makeup and now it's clean shaven for me.:) My Marleena mirror says YAY!

Oh..haven't gone out enfemme either way, but my confidence is building now.:)

[Crysten]

Agreed. If we're at least *somewhat* passable, and acting accordingly, people don't have to explain to their 5 year olds why that "man with a beard" is wearing a dress and heels. Most kids wouldn't notice (even if adults did) if you were halfway passable. People resent having to explain stuff to their kids forcefully - and yes, you are FORCING them into that position, and they resent it. Rightfully so, I would never go out like that, just from simply respecting other people's space. I really don't want to give them something to "deal with", I just want to get about my business.

[abigailf]

I would call that a Freudian razor slip. Something inside you wanted to slip up so you would need to shave it off. I say cut the 'stache. You can always grow it back.

[Kristy_K]

I myself wouldn't go out with facial hair. Considering I am not really passable I would think that was mocking the people that wasn't passably.

Or you have so confident and don't care what anyone thinks. Which is great. If you have any extra I will take it.

Other wise you are just plain crazy. Either way you are just being yourself and that is what this site is all about. Just being you and enjoying life.

Hugs,
Kristy

[Billie Jean]

First of all there are lots of judgemental statements here. I have never walked around in a mall where 5 year olds saw me and I could care less if you want to pass. Crossdressing is about wearing what you want. I look no more like a freak than anyone who isn't passable, clean shaven, and wearing makeup. I also stated that no one at the club even acted repulsed and lots of them complimented my outfits. I had several women hug me and tell me they wanted to see me back again. I also know I'm not the only one on this forum who has gone out dressed and had facial hair. I wasn't trying to pass just to be me. Billie Jean

[msginaadoll]

You are right people are judgemental. Heck we all are. We decide what we like what we dislike, etc. I think what is happening is people are judging what they like or can accept for themselves and place it on others. Sure if you wear a beard or mustache and present in feminine attire you will get more looks. But if that is ok with you then it is ok with me. As for community, you are welcome in my community anytime. I respect your right to dress as you want and how u want. There is a variety of folks here and crossdressing since that is the forum title covers a variety of things. I dont feel I have the right to limit it based on myself. Its a big umbrella and room for differences.

[kathie225]

In crossdressing I find an individual expression and celebration of "self" not realized elsewhere in my life. I do it to please me not others. My mustache does nothing to lessen the personal enjoyment derived from my attire and activities while dressed. I simply present myself as a male who enjoys dressing in feminine attire. No secrets or hidden agendas.

[Asche]

I have a beard and mustache and go out "dressed" all the time. I have no interest in "passing," so I don't see a problem.

As for explaining to 5-year-olds: I don't think the 5-year-olds have a problem with it -- most of what grown-ups do makes little sense from a 5-year-old's perspective, anyway. If the parents have a problem, they can ask me, or let the kid ask. I'm happy to explain that it's just something I like to do, like playing baseball or dressing up as a pirate.

As for "reflecting badly on the community": what has "the community" done for me? I go out "dressed" to the post office, to the grocery store, to the barbershop, to church, etc., and I talk to people the way I always would. On the rare occasions when people ask me why I dress the way I do, I try to explain it in as simple terms as I can. If I am accepted (and I seem to be), I think it has more to do with how I treat people and my willingness to act like a normal person (regardless of how I'm dressed) than how well I conform to some CDers' standard of acceptable dress.

[Butterfly Bill]

I've had a full beard since 1970, and have been wearing clothes bought in women's departments in public since 1994. Many people have liked the honesty.

[JessHaust]

I was never trying to be judgemental, but sorry if I can across that way. We are all here for simular reasons, but none are exactly the same. Some of us want desprately to be women, some want only to wear the clothes, some... well there are lots of reasons. Mine has alwys been about creating the look. But thats my thing, if yours includes facial hair, and you feel you can pull it off, then go for it.

[Billie Jean]

Gina, Kathie, Asche, Jess, and Bill I appreciated your input. I think that we as people are biased as to they way we think and I also appreciate all the other ladies input as well. The fact is the world would be very boring if everyone thought the same as the other fellow. Some pass and others just are guys in a dress and heels with or without a beard. I plan on getting back to The Lipstick Lounge soon. They are an excepting crowd who welcomes all humans. My decision to be clean shaven or not will be based on my own feelings. We all share a common thread as to being blessed to be bi-gendered and I love you all. Billie Jean

[AnitaH]

I've had a mustache since my late teens (several decades ago) and throughout the years that I was suppressing myself and only dressing at home on rare occasions it was OK to be a man in a dress, but since I have accepted this part of me and gotten serious about my CD and making attempts at being in public that stache has gone and is not coming back. It makes taking care of that part of my face so much easier. I have only had a couple of comments and all good. Most people, including family members, didn't seem to even notice the change. I must say that I have been trying hard to be more accepting of the differences in people and not be judgmental. I needed to shave my face but you do what works for you.

AnitaH

[Billie Jean]

You call it judgemental? I call it common sense. If you want to dress in public, make the razor your friend.


You can do whatever you want. But in doing so, you also have to accept the consequences of your actions. You have to accept that if you wear women's clothing in public, with facial hair, you may run into someone one day who doesn't like it...someone who doesn't like it a whole lot. I think you can figure out the rest on your own.You are entitled to your opinion but as far as if someone physically attacking me they might be the one paying the consequence. Just because I dress doesn't make me weak, a thirty year Shorin Ryu pacticioner and permitted concealed weapon carrier. Besides where in any post did I say I went where anybody would care? Billie Jean

[Rachel Morley]

Well .. not me me that's for sure. I can't imagine doing such a thing as it would severely restrict my ability to have a good time in public. I prefer to blend in and look as close as possible to a GG.

[Sara Jessica]

I have a beard and mustache and go out "dressed" all the time. I have no interest in "passing," so I don't see a problem....As for "reflecting badly on the community": what has "the community" done for me? I go out "dressed" to the post office, to the grocery store, to the barbershop, to church, etc., and I talk to people the way I always would. On the rare occasions when people ask me why I dress the way I do, I try to explain it in as simple terms as I can. If I am accepted (and I seem to be), I think it has more to do with how I treat people and my willingness to act like a normal person (regardless of how I'm dressed) than how well I conform to some CDers' standard of acceptable dress.

Oh, I see, it's all about you.

What you fail to recognize is that we are in fact part of a community. One which is really on a cutting edge of something great in terms of public acceptance. Yes, your presentation and interaction with others might contribute to a "live & let live" attitude among some Muggles but most are likely to see your presentation as nothing more than shocking.

This is a perfect example of why some on the TS side of the fence feel a need to attempt to divorce themselves from the larger TG community. Their daily full-time presentation is difficult enough without having to overcome perceptions that are perpetuated by others who have no sensitivity to what they go through. And to add insult to injury, those who choose to present in such a manner can simply revert back to male mode at the drop of a hat, taking on no long-term personal responsibility or ownership for their actions. Male privilege is invoked and it all goes away. Unfortunately, the Muggles are not at a point where they can discern the differences in our community. We all get lumped together in their minds, for better or worse, and the woman who is living full-time pays the price.

Speaking of privilege, this is not about passing privilege. We have a variety of "passing" (or "blending") abilities in our ranks. Instead, it's about being respectful towards women and at least making a reasonable attempt at emulation when out in public, notwithstanding the variety of hurdles all of us have to overcome. The beard? That's a hurdle that can be shaved off. And if one presents as that guy-in-a-dress look, then at least losing the facial hair takes away a huge part of the shock value. I guess that is precisely where I'm drawing the line in what I am trying to convey.

[Kristy_K]

Billie Jean I am happy you have the courage to be yourself. If you can go to your club the way you want to and have a good time at, then you should. This forum is about other people and there ideas and thoughts. What works for some doesn't always work for the next person.

Have fun,
Kristy

[Asche]

You have to accept that if you wear women's clothing in public, with facial hair, you may run into someone one day who doesn't like it...someone who doesn't like it a whole lot.
You don't have to "wear women's clothing in public" (with or without facial hair) to run into this. They'll take exception to your being white, or black, or female, or on "their" street, or in a car that's in front of them when they'd rather have open road. Or to your simply existing at all. (Cf. James Potter's excuse for tormenting Severus Snape, in Order of the Phoenix: "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.") I've experienced a lot of the latter.

At some point in my life, I had to decide whether I was going to spend my whole life hiding from the bullies in a bomb-proof bunker, or go out and do what I want and enjoy whatever years fate was going to allot me. And I decided that taking my chances and being alive was better than cowering in the questionable safety of a coffin of my own making.

I've spent the past few years walking around town, taking the train, shopping, and pretty much living my life "dressed," and nobody's even given me a hard time about it, let alone tried to kill me or beat me up. On the rare occasions when anyone says anything at all, it's to compliment me.

Maybe someday someone will decide to kill or maim me for wearing a skirt. But it's more likely that someone will kill me by smashing their car into mine on the Throughway. Or pull along side me on the West Side Highway and shoot me for no obvious reason (as happened to one neighbor.) Or lose control of their car and hit me while I'm walking on the side of the road (as happened to a friend of mine.) Or I'll die of cancer, or choke on a fishbone. That's life for you: no matter what you do, you'll never make it out alive.

This way, at least, when it happens, I'll be able to say to myself with my last, dying thoughts, "at least I got a few good years in."

[Billie Jean]

You don't have to "wear women's clothing in public" (with or without facial hair) to run into this. They'll take exception to your being white, or black, or female, or on "their" street, or in a car that's in front of them when they'd rather have open road. Or to your simply existing at all. (Cf. James Potter's excuse for tormenting Severus Snape, in Order of the Phoenix: "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.") I've experienced a lot of the latter.

At some point in my life, I had to decide whether I was going to spend my whole life hiding from the bullies in a bomb-proof bunker, or go out and do what I want and enjoy whatever years fate was going to allot me. And I decided that taking my chances and being alive was better than cowering in the questionable safety of a coffin of my own making.

I've spent the past few years walking around town, taking the train, shopping, and pretty much living my life "dressed," and nobody's even given me a hard time about it, let alone tried to kill me or beat me up. On the rare occasions when anyone says anything at all, it's to compliment me.

Maybe someday someone will decide to kill or maim me for wearing a skirt. But it's more likely that someone will kill me by smashing their car into mine on the Throughway. Or pull along side me on the West Side Highway and shoot me for no obvious reason (as happened to one neighbor.) Or lose control of their car and hit me while I'm walking on the side of the road (as happened to a friend of mine.) Or I'll die of cancer, or choke on a fishbone. That's life for you: no matter what you do, you'll never make it out alive.

This way, at least, when it happens, I'll be able to say to myself with my last, dying thoughts, "at least I got a few good years in."I feel the same way. I travel a lot by motorcycle and commute almost daily. that by far is the most likely way I'll be injured. Like I said in the post to Marcie, I'm not worried about gouing out in a dress to a club and I m well capable of self defense. A side kick to the solar plexus with a three inch heel would be very effective in stopping an opponet. I say live life like you're dying not die living. Billie Jean

[Kerigirl2009]

If I was going out and presenting as a woman I would never have facial hair. I think this is one of the things that wierds out some people. Just my opinion. Now I go out underdressed nearly everyday and then it is ok to have facial hair because I am still presenting as a man on the outside.

I am seriously thinking about getting permanent hair removal.

[Katelyn B]

I could never go out with facial hair, even in drab, I hate it on me (though not on others), hate the way it looks, hate the way it feels, and hate the way having it makes me feel. I guess nothing (well nearly nothing) shouts MAN as much as sporting facial hair, which is about as far away from "me" as you can get. However, if that's what makes you happy, great, as long as you like it keep doing it.

[JessHaust]

Unfortunately, the Muggles are not at a point where they can discern the differences in our community.
.
I just Love this term!!
I think I will now always think of non-TG/CD people as 'Muggles"!!!!

[Billie Jean]

I work with the public both in healthcare and retail. You'd be surprised at the amount of women who have facial hair. Not all of them shave it off before being out in public. Not saying people don't look at them funny. I only go out fully dressed to the club and usually put my skirt on right before I go in. They have quite a few who have a beard and dress that come in. If you want to pass in the general public then I say yes by all means shave,but if you don't care about passing then its your choice, after all the country where I live is still allows freedom of choice. The transgender laws are changing and giving me that choice. Billie Jean

[BillieJoEllen]

In answer to Miranda's question as to how the three men I was talking about acted. The first one looked ridiculous and was out shopping in a retail boutique.She had little girl clothes on and barrettes and hair ribbons in her own hair.She was very flamboyant and wanted people to notice her. She got her wish. While I don't want to deny anybody their freedom I would prefer that somebody like that would stay in their own house.
The second one was just walking the city streets. I heard (I did not see her do this) that she would purposely cross streets just to be able to walk past children. I HAVE however seen her purposely walk near groups of people. She was dressed ok and nothing outrageous but she did have a beard.
The third was obviously wearing women's jeans and a shirt. She was acting very macho but also had barrettes and hair ribbons in her hair. She was also wearing frilly socks and Mary Jane's. She didn't command very many looks because I believe the people we were around knew her and were used to her.
Like I said earlier, I would prefer people like that to stay inside because they give the perception to the community that we are all like that.

[Kaz]

I just Love this term!!
I think I will now always think of non-TG/CD people as 'Muggles"!!!!

There is more in this than meets the eye! Weren't the wizards divided in their world because they could not tolerate diversity amongst themselves... and as for mugblood... those who were not 'pure'...? I do not think Harry Potter is really a strong metaphor for 'us lot', but I am always interested in how we divide up between ourselves... Me I LOVE diversity and welcome anyone from any persuasion. I taught a class a few years that included a Palestinian and an Israeli... the subject was Knowledge Management (!!) and they were both very early twenties.

They found it hard to talk to each other (lots of baggage)... I got on well with both of them and I am still in contact. Good people, the both of them...

Severus was a good guy but he had a role to play... Harry and his friends were relatively innocent, but drawn in to the relative persuasions of others...

I don't have problems with the ideas of different projections in fantasy.. so I shouldn't in real life... but I don't think I look that good in a skirt with a beard.. oh yeah... and no hair!

[Sara Jessica]

Muggle is actually a simple way to describe anyone who is non-TG, just as in HP it describes anyone who is not magical.

[Asche]

What you fail to recognize is that we are in fact part of a community
If I understand you correctly, I am not part of your community. My gender expression, if you will, is not acceptable in your community -- that is, to you and those who think like you. You have drawn a boundary, and I am outside of it.

Some might say, why not conform and be accepted? But if I wanted to belong to a community that requires that I hide an essential part of who I am, why would I prefer a TG community over the cis-gender male world? (Actually, I prefer neither. I'd rather seek out real-life communities that are happy to have me as I am. Which I have done.)


This is a perfect example of why some on the TS side of the fence feel a need to attempt to divorce themselves from the larger TG community. Their daily full-time presentation is difficult enough without having to overcome perceptions that are perpetuated by others who have no sensitivity to what they go through.
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I can see that it might be painful to feel that other people are lumping you together with people that you and they see as weird or shocking, and that makes me truly sad -- I do not want to add to your pain. On the other hand, it bothers me that you seem to be joining ranks with those in the cis-gender society who would condemn as unacceptably gender deviant not only people like me, but you, TSs, orthodox CDs, and pretty much anyone else who posts here.

I can't help thinking of the Stonewall riots, which are widely considered to be the beginning of the Gay Rights movement. It was not the accommodationist gays, but rather the "flaming fags," the hustlers, the drag queens, in-your-face-gay people who led the movement, especially in its early days, and to a large extent were responsible for making being openly gay at least tolerated in the USA. (Actual acceptance took a lot longer, of course.)

[Billie Jean]

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT...
You go to a club and you're NOT the only CD in there with a beard?
Please list the name of this club, so we'll all know to avoid it at all costs.Unless you live in Nashville then you should have no problem. I hope you never go to a club that doesn't suit your narrow minded ways. After all you too are just a guy in a dress. Billie Jean

[Melanie Sykes]

I have facial hair, sometimes go out dressed in ladies' clothes, and I don't think that's a crime against the TG community.

Some members seem to be implying that I shouldn't dress in the attire of the fairer half of the population unless I'm going to shave off my beard first, and I know that the "I wear what I want" argument won't cut it with those. Well, I have a number of reasons for doing this. Firstly, I'm a cross dresser, and as others have said of themselves, it chose me, I didn't choose it. If I could take a pill to stop the desire, I think I would, because as much as I love cross dressing, I hate the fact that it takes over so much of my mind during my waking hours. I also hate that I spent 12 years of our marriage deep in the closet and now that I'm out to my very-lovely-but-not-very-accepting wife, I feel incredibly guilty about the years of deceit. But I can't change that now, so I just have to dress when I can without rubbing her face in it. As I also have a full-time professional career and two children, there's no way I can dress more than a small percentage of the time, but not dressing at all is out of the question.

My facial hair is slow-growing, neat, looks great in male mode, and is adored by my long-suffering wife. Shaving my legs now and again is pushing the limits of her tolerance, and losing the beard would make it even worse; she'd be constantly reminded of my penchant for pretty, instead of just when the legs come out at night. And personally, when in male mode, I much prefer myself with the facial hair.

That said, I would love to go out beardless when dressed. I'm aching to shave it all off and to try out all kinds of makeup and a lovely wig. I'd love to shape my eyebrows and wear false lashes. I'd love to look into the mirror and see a beautiful and clean-shaven woman looking back. Many of you look gorgeous en-femme, and I'm incredibly jealous when I look through the photos section. But considering the limited amount of time I get to dress, and the many weeks my beard looks a terrible mess before actually looking anything like a neat, short beard, shaving it off is too much of a compromise.

As for mitigating factors, well, I don't wear clothes which would appear ****ty on a GG - my attire when I do go out dressed is smart, as it is when I'm in male mode. I look in the full-length mirror and I see someone who's taken a bit of care in their appearance; still a guy in a skirt, but a least a tidy-looking one. Last night I was browsing the sale items in Marks and Spencer whilst dressed in heels, a skirt and blouse, and a family of 3 came along. The mother came into my aisle first and I was expecing her see me and steer away her husband and son before they saw me too. But she didn't. She just browsed along beside me and let her son run up and down the aisle behind us. I obviously didn't scare that particular family. I'm well-behaved, polite, I've chatted to people and I've always been very well treated in return.

When I go out, I'm not representing anyone else - just me. I only have one life, and I can't spend it all worrying about how I'm representing a huge group of people who just might be into the same thing I am. Does my wobbly cycling prejudice surrounding car drivers against cyclists? Almost certainly, but my motivation to cycle better is not to make cyclists look like a good bunch of people; it's so I don't get killed. No-one has ever yet threatened me for simultaneously wearing women's clothes and facial hair, and to my knowledge, it hasn't made anyone physically sick. And by the way, I was reading a high-fashion magazine in a hotel the other week, and there was a Calvin Klein advert encouraging women to wear men's boxer shorts with the waistband showing as a fashion statement. Should women be allowed to wear boxer shorts without also growing beards?

In closing, and changing the subject a bit, I do really want to say how much I love this forum and all of you wonderful people, bearded or shaven, for contributing such interesting food for thought so regularly. The other day there was a thread about the number of cross dressers as a percentage of the general population, and someone asked the question about who all the people are who browse this site without logging in. Well, one of them is me. I don't have time to log in very often, but I do browse it a lot from my phone. You lot keep me sane. Thank you :-)

[Sue Too]

I agree with Sara Jessica. I guess i support you RIGHT to dress en femme with facial hair but I wish you would not do it in public. Whether you know itor not you are reflecting on the entire crossdressing community. It is a slap in the face to those we are trying to emulate. Go ahead and do your thing if it makes you feel good. Dont give any consideration to you "sisters", but I hope you dont live around my town.

Susan in Phoenix

[Billie Jean]

This is wrong on so many levels...Whats wrong? That you try to make everyone conform to your point of view or that I don't care what you do. As for you being narrow minded, thats the way you appear in your posts. Everybody on here doesn't see it your way so you start an attack, like posting that I might meet up with someone who would attack me for having a beard and wearing a dress. If that worried me then I wouldn't do it. If I offend you then you are the one with the problem not me. To quote the late George Carlin, "Don't be skeered its only a beard." Billie Jean

[JessHaust]

Ladies, really!
Billie Jean asked for our opinion. Some of us gave her ours. Most say no, we would not go out dressed with facial hair, myself included. That should have been enough, there is no reason to try and bend her to your will. What she asked for was simply an opinion. And opinions are just that, we all have them and they are your own, there is no requirement or prize for getting others to share yours.
Look, this is already a group on plenty of peoples hit list, let's not turn on ourselves!

[linda allen]

I've seen three men around the city who go out dressed and all have a full beard. Personally I think when that is being done it sort of reflects badly on our community. Trying not to be too judgemental. Just saying.....
I would have said pretty much that, but since you already said it, I won't have to repeat it.

If I can't at least look like a ugly woman, I'm not going out in public.

[linda allen]

I don't really care about "community" but of course it looks bad. If you aren't out dressed in public, sure, have a ZZ Top beard if you want. If you dress in public, and have facial hair, you will be looked upon as a feakshow. It's that's your goal, fine, whatever. If you're trying to "pass" in public, do the right thing and shave. Women don't have facial hair. period.

Yep, "freak show". .

[Sara Jessica]

If I understand you correctly, I am not part of your community. My gender expression, if you will, is not acceptable in your community -- that is, to you and those who think like you. You have drawn a boundary, and I am outside of it.

Just because I have drawn a very personal boundary and expressed my opinion as such, it doesn't mean you are not part of the greater TG community. Your presentation goes outside of the gender binary and I subscribe to the theory that lumps many diverse expressions under an umbrella named TG. And like I said, there are those who are TS would would just assume not be under said umbrella because behavior of others hurts their ability to secure equal rights on so many fronts. Behavior which is perpetrated without any regard for how it affects others.

My opinion is deeply rooted in personal observation of a dear friend and her struggles when it came to loss, and her daily struggles in being perceived as trans by The Muggles. While I was a "respectful-part-timer" (in presentation, full-time at heart & soul) before I knew her, witnessing what she was going through led to a personal resolve to always be the best I could possibly be and to never do anything which could possibly harm those who live my dream on a day to day full-time basis. This is the reason why I have expressed my opinions here, hopefully in a manner which shows you respect for your place in the larger community but at the same time trying to point out that bigger picture.


Some might say, why not conform and be accepted? But if I wanted to belong to a community that requires that I hide an essential part of who I am, why would I prefer a TG community over the cis-gender male world? (Actually, I prefer neither. I'd rather seek out real-life communities that are happy to have me as I am. Which I have done.)

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I can see that it might be painful to feel that other people are lumping you together with people that you and they see as weird or shocking, and that makes me truly sad -- I do not want to add to your pain. On the other hand, it bothers me that you seem to be joining ranks with those in the cis-gender society who would condemn as unacceptably gender deviant not only people like me, but you, TSs, orthodox CDs, and pretty much anyone else who posts here.

Ya know, that cis-gendered society is what it is. We live with a gender binary from our earliest days and I don't see that changing any time soon. I celebrate the differences between men and women and am not one who is looking to blend the teams. Like I said, I get those who are on the androgynous side of the fence with their mixed-mode of presentation even though I don't see that going mainstream in any way, shape or form (men just don't go there in high enough percentages). But like I mentioned, I just see that bearded-man-in-a-dress as being shocking to the average person.


Whats wrong? That you try to make everyone conform to your point of view or that I don't care what you do. As for you being narrow minded, thats the way you appear in your posts. Everybody on here doesn't see it your way so you start an attack, like posting that I might meet up with someone who would attack me for having a beard and wearing a dress. If that worried me then I wouldn't do it. If I offend you then you are the one with the problem not me. To quote the late George Carlin, "Don't be skeered its only a beard." Billie Jean

I don't like that it was intimated by anyone that you could be attacked for appearing as a bearded man wearing a dress. I think we all run that risk, albeit a small one provided we don't stray from well-travelled & mainstream areas. The only thing I could think of that would affect your presentation in this regard versus mine is that you are more visible as an outlier to the gender binary.


I have facial hair, sometimes go out dressed in ladies' clothes...

I really liked your post as it conveyed a sensitive explanation as to why you do what you do. I truly have empathy for your situation. Maybe this is because of your longings that don't come across in some of the other's comments. Still, I hope you are able to give some thought to the fact that your actions do affect others whether you like it or not, whether you care or not (and I get the sense that deep down, you do care).


My facial hair is slow-growing, neat, looks great in male mode, ...

And I'm sure it does! Even though I am personally anti-facial-fur on so many levels, I can acknowledge that when done right, some guys just look terrific with a well-manicured beard.

But the first thing that entered my mind as I read this part of your post is that it should be followed by .... "and not-so-great in female mode" ;)!!!

[meganmartin]

Oh heavens NO, that kind of defeats the point.
I shave,shave, shave and scrape then cover up Heck when i am dressed i try to remove as much body hair as possable even the hair that can not be seen. It is all part of a female feeling.

[Kali]

This thread is going nowhere, fast. This issue really doesn't even require discussion. If you have a beard and want to dress in female clothing in public, shave it...end of story. It really is that simple. In 2012, I don't think there are many traveling carnivals left where you might find a gig in the freak show.

Let me paraphrase that for you:

"This thread is going nowhere, fast. This issue really doesn't even require discussion. If you have male genetalia and wish to present as a woman in public, don't. End of story. It really is that simple. If you don't fit the social norm as I define it, you are a freak of nature. In 2012, I don't think there are many traveling carnivals left where you might find a gig in their freak show."

And people wonder why there is so much push back against LBGTQ acceptance. Like any other group we have our own selection of the bigioted and opiniated who do their best to reflect badly on everyone else. You will conform or you wil be ostraciszed.

There will always be people who, regardless of their best efforts, will always look like a man in a dress. In your perfect world it would seem that anyone that doesn't pass with perfect ease had better not be seen in public, otherwise someone might think that they are a man in a dress and must be up to something. And by not "passing" they will hurt your imaginary community.

Bigots are bigots, regardless of their attire.

[Kali]

Right. Whatever. I don't need to "judge" anyone. It's very basic common sense.
You want "anything goes" acceptance? That's fine, but it's completely 100% unrealistic in our society today. For the record, I've not once said anyone is hurting the "community". Others have said that, and it does apply, but I haven't said that.
Do whatever you want...nobody can stop you...but as I'm sure you know...there's a price to pay when you do that. You'll be ostracized for the most part, on this forum, and you'll definitely be looked upon as a freak or mentally ill by society. If you're good with that, more power to you.

You do realize that the vast majority of society looks on crosdressers as mentally ill, whether they wear a beard or not, right?

Kristine James, who is a member here, and the person behind the long running Empire conference told me about putting a bearded CD on the cover of one of her publications. It raised a stir, but she knew it was the right thing to do. I believe that person, and perhaps others with facial hair, are regular attendes at her public conferences.

When you start making absolute statements such as the one you made, you come across as an angry, petulant child. You've decided that your way is the only way, and that not fitting your mold means that you will be ostracized even in this forum (I don't think that word means what you think).

There is a lot of space between "acceptance" and simply not caring about something. Your poor behavior only matters to me if it directly affects me, otherwise I don't care about your behavior. So a person who chooses to have facial hair is separating themself from the TG "community" simply by the act of appearing in public that way. They clearly aren't interested in presenting as a woman. Only someone who had a chip on their shoulder about the subject would equate that behavior with their own

And if you truely believe that the sight of a woman with facial hair means that they belong in a freak show I can do little but feel sorry for you. You're very opinionated for someone who is too scared to even put a state in their profile, which speaks volumes as to your own comfort level with who you are.

[Kali]

But know…there is a price to pay for that. If you’re willing to deal with that, knock yourself out! Sure…you can single me out and call me “judgmental” “bigot” or whatever if you need someone to blame, and it makes you feel better. Enough said.

Nice quoting, did you bother to read the entire post?

If that person is out and about in a dress and facial hair, they are not representing anyone other than themselves. That person has no impact on anyone other than themselves.

You took it upon yourself to make blanket statements about how things had to be, not me. You singled yourself out. Getting called on that then backpeddling doesn't make you look any better.

It's clear that you simply don't get it, and that further commentary is pointless. Enjoy your carefree non-judgemental life.

[Kali]

You are good at twisting things, I'll give you that. I guess the difference between us is simply that I live in the real world, not some fantasy world, where I come up with threads like: "My wife is fully on board; perhaps more on board than I am." Everyone knew it was fantasy. Pure fantasy.

So after the personal attacks you made in PMs made you look even more foolish you decided to continue cyber-stalking me and post a personal attack in the public forum? That's really sad and I do feel sorry for your pitiful, closeted life.

And by the way, my wife has an account here. She finds it mildly funny that you think she's a fantasy. The FAB Forum, which she has applied to join, requires voice verification.

[Billie Jean]

Stick a fork in this thread. It's done.You're done. WAHH WAHHH WAHH, I'm telling mommie you won't play my way. You are the Archie Bunker of crossdressers. Billie Jean

[MissMarcie]

You know what's really cool about this forum?
The ignore list.
It really works well.
I recommend it.

[Billie Jean]

Then use it and talk to someone who sees it your way. You picked the fight and it seems it was the wrong place and time for you. Get back in the ozone. Billie Jean

[linda allen]

I can only wonder why other threads get closed (or posts removed) while this one stays open. Some pretty mean things have been posted here and it's pretty obvious that nobody is convincing any body to change their minds.

But just to recap my opinion - A "bearded lady" belongs in a circus sideshow.

[MrsKali]

Im wondering who "everyone" is? and if "anyone" is interested in how we are exploring this feel free to email me.

[Kali]

I can only wonder why other threads get closed (or posts removed) while this one stays open. Some pretty mean things have been posted here and it's pretty obvious that nobody is convincing any body to change their minds.

But just to recap my opinion - A "bearded lady" belongs in a circus sideshow.

The threads get closed because they get nasty. For example, you could simply say "I don't believe crossdressers with beards should appear in public." That would state a clear opinion.

However you choose to use the much more inflamatory "A "bearded lady" belongs in a circus sideshow" statement, which is designed to offend the original poster. Then you act all surprised when people feel offended.

FWIW, the circus bearded lady was almost always a genetic woman, not a guy in a dress. And studies have shown that something like 40% of women have significant facial hair, which causes most of them no end of anxiety and has engenedered entire "beauty" industries. So facial hair on a woman is far from uncommon. And outside the US and parts of Europe, rarely commented on.

As the Italians say "Donna barbuta, sempre piaciuta"

[MissMarcie]

I can only wonder why other threads get closed (or posts removed) while this one stays open. Some pretty mean things have been posted here and it's pretty obvious that nobody is convincing any body to change their minds.
But just to recap my opinion - A "bearded lady" belongs in a circus sideshow.
Linda...I Agree 100%.

[Asche]

Just because I have drawn a very personal boundary and expressed my opinion as such, it doesn't mean you are not part of the greater TG community.
TG is a category, not a community. "Community" suggests some measure of interaction on a regular basis. I have encountered maybe a half-dozen TG men in real life, and those only in passing. The closest thing I have to regular interaction with TSs and CDs is here, and, at the risk of sounding nasty, what I've seen here has not given me an overwhelming urge to seek them out in Real Life.


Your presentation goes outside of the gender binary and I subscribe to the theory that lumps many diverse expressions under an umbrella named TG. And like I said, there are those who are TS would would just assume not be under said umbrella because behavior of others hurts their ability to secure equal rights on so many fronts. Behavior which is perpetrated without any regard for how it affects others.
I don't agree that how I choose to dress hurts anybody, least of all people in the category TG. If anything, the opposite. I think it is those who are willing to be seen as weird, shocking, and in violation of social standards who are actually changing things. And I know that "the way it just is" can be changed because I've watched it happen.

I have watched 3 major equal-rights movements go by (civil rights, women's liberation, and gay rights), in each case from when it was a wacko fringe idea that only nut jobs would support to being mainstream, and in each case, it was not the nice, polite, don't-make-waves people who moved things along, but the "radicals", the people who shocked and frightened and weirded out polite society. It's hard to remember now, but when Martin Luther King, Jr. was doing all the stuff that made him famous (organizing and leading marches, sit-ins, etc.), he was generally seen as a dangerous radical and a threat to civil society. A lot of people compared the Civil Rights movement to the Mau-Mau. Then along came Malcolm X, the Black Pather party, and other militant groups, not to mention the urban riots of the 1960's and suddenly polite society decided that MLK wasn't so bad.

Not that I would put myself in those categories. Nobody seems at all shocked or weirded out by my presentation (note that New Yorkers are not known for making any secret of what they don't like.) The most I can be said to be doing to change the world is to show the people I meet that a man can "dress funny" and still be an otherwise perfectly reasonable, friendly guy.

[MissMarcie]

I think it is those who are willing to be seen as weird, shocking, and in violation of social standards who are actually changing things.
I disagree. I believe it is this type of individual who is making it more difficult for TG's to be accepted.

[Nigella]

Once again because members see a thread as a boxing match, this one has gone to pot. If you want to fight, go down the bl**dy gym, sign out some boxing gloves and have your cat fights there, keep them off this forum

Thread done