Female enough!?

[Kelsy]

Let me just start by saying that I am envious of every girl here that has
had FFS with great result. The one thing that really sets me on the downward
path to serious depression is the thought that FFS for me is unatainable. I have convinced myself that in order to live full time as the woman I am and to live successfully in my target gender I need - NEED the surgery. I have strong male gender markers (no one ever mistakes me for a woman) that will have to be mitigated in order for anyone to take my presentation seriously.
I have shopped the qualified surgeons for the best price and have made my choice but the complete regimen of procedures is still out of my reach.

I have decided to do as much as I can with the savings I have scraped together, sooner rather than later, because I fear that the money will evaporate. I will spend every last cent I have to get some work done.The catch 22 I am in is that the further my transition progresses the more it jeopardizes my ability to earn the funds needed to maintain the costs of living and all that transition entails and in order to succeed in changing careers an acceptable female presentation is crucial!

At any rate I am meeting my surgeon next week and I am going to commit to the procedures I can afford and try to lay out a longer strategy of getting more as things allow. So much is up in the air. My plan is to have the surgery and go full time this summer. As much as I hate having to baby step my way through transition I really have no choice and if I had the money I'd would have done all of this buy now. I am not certain what the result will be surgically but it will have to be "female enough" for me. Somehow I hope I will be able to save for GRS.

Now I am under no illusion that my work of finding my place as a woman is in it's infancy and I truly fear failing and don't want to even think about what that really means, failure is not a workable option. It scares me to think of it.

So why write any of this? I think It can help demostrate how difficult GID and transition can be and the desperation that can follow many in the community and these problems are just a portion of what you have to face. This is a high wire act and I would not suggest attempting it without a net!!


Beg, borrow, steal, live and be happy

Kelsy

[Zenith]

What are you doing and who is doing it? Good choices here can maximize your resources.

[Kelsy]

Dr Zukowski in Chicago. He gave me the full plate menu of procedures but I have narrowed that down to lower face work, jaw line and lift everything, Face ,neck, lip, eyes. I have excluded for now brow bossing, hairline advancement, cheek implants
and fat transplants. I have also left out chin work and trachea shave only because they are bundled. I think a trachea shave is
pretty important and need to discuss this with him.

[ReneeT]

Kelsey,
Are you on hrt? If so, how long? Have you completed electrolysis? This things can make a big difference even without ffs

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kelsy to help you there needs to be pictures from multiple angles... with hair pulled back....

You self assess that you have male features and I believe you, so i know it's hard to look at and post but it's impossible to speak directly without that feedback..btw there is site called ffs-support on yahoo that is filled with girls that post detailed pictures..and even more girls that will give you brutal and honest feedback..

You nailed it with the catch 22 comment...

I shared your feeling that without ffs, transition was not something i could do, and i saved up for it..i was blessed with good income at the time
In fact, it was reading about and seeing results of ffs that "rang my bell"... I kept seeing pics online of all the lucky female looking women, and then i found out they all got ffs...
OMG, I took so much comfort in my inability to pass as a woman (especially at 6'2), and had repressed my feelings as illogical and impossible...
So i totally get how you are thinking..

I can't say every case is the same, but my understanding is that FFS is more about the brow and nose than anything else...shaving your brow bone so that it's shape and size is mathematically and aesthetically similar to average females is a necessary component of truly being taken for a woman...Dr O is a huge proponent of this and i think he is right...so much so that truly attractive women such as Julie chose to get her brow done even AFTER other procedures...

Also, many women have very strong jaws..in fact, i think you have seen my pic, i have a VERY strong jaw, and i didn't even get ffs to correct it (i did get the side of jaw shaved down a little)...but my square jaw went uncorrected, i didn't need it, and my mom has a very strong jaw, i look just like her...

i can think of the manliest ts woman i ever met, she had ffs with dr O, is 6'3" and she passes with ease now..incredible...her face would be impossible on a guy..

I have a girl in my group that lives as male, had jaw work and a face lift done with dr leis in philly and in my opinion it was a waste of money, there is almost no difference!

Finally, and i really mean this with my heart, it would be a huge mistake for you to skimp on surgery, drain all your resources, get something done, and then be unhappy with results...
for example, if you have a significant "adams apple" there is almost no bigger tell that you are not genetically female....

As to the face lift, I don't see that as an inherently feminine procedure, especially on a male face...It will just give you a more attractive MALE face...
this is not about being pretty , its about your femaleness being reflected back to you.. this procedure carries the risk of extreme disappointment

I think you should seriously engage in this conversation...probably not here, but in an ffs support group..
you need to be fearless, patient and clever... If you are making money and able to save $$, then you are better off waiting..
If FFS is your ticket, live off rice and beans, take the bus to work, whatever it takes...and take even more time to evaluation options...rank what will make you look female in order of importance..and measure that list against your resources

[Stephenie S]

FFS may be the single most important thing you can do to speed your transition.

There is not much question about this. Your face is right out there for all to see, all day every day. It's the first thing most people will notice and may be the single thing they gender you on.

Beg, borrow, or steal the money you need. Most docs have access to places like GE Credit to help you pay for this. It ain't a place to scrimp.

Remember, many people spend 20 to 40 grand on their cars quite regularly. Drive that old heap another few years. Get the surgery.

Have you seriously considered any of the other docs? Thailand can save you considerable money (sometimes as much as half) if you shop carefully. There is no reason to fear going abroad. Thailand's health care is fully equal to our own, and some of the docs there are real artists.

Dr Z is considered quite good for soft tissue work but it sounds like you may really need more than that. And whatever you do, DON'T skip the tracheal shave. Thanks to the popular media, many cis-gendered people use that as a gender marker. I do hope you have consulted with Dr S in Boston also.

Good luck with this.

S

[Zenith]

Kelsy, about all I can say is "What she said", to all three excellent responses so far.

You will lose jaw definition on hormones as the masseter muscle atrophies. Give it time.

Your lifts are anti-aging and not purely feminizing, I would not prioritize there on limited funds.

Steph is dead on that a prominent trachea is a marker for those questioning. It's not beautifying but it needs to be a priority.

The key areas people see (as Kaitlyn mentioned) are nose and forehead.

Zukowski is one of the most cost effective surgeons, but don't let him pressure you with his "bundles". Make sure you are getting what you need.

Good luck and feel free to ask lots of questions or link us to your pics in one of the closed forums...

[Kelsy]

Thanks everyone,
Some very helpful comments. I won't bore you with my background financially speaking because it is a long and problematic story. I will literally have to beg and borrow and I am open to selling anything that I own that is not nailed down. this is how important this is to me. Grs can wait FFS cannot and I can't get to one with out the other.

When I go full time my buisness will fold or be reduced to such an extent that I won't be able to live and save so my career shift is already being explored, My wife's buisness is taking off and I might be able to plug in there she has pretty much garunnteed that If She decides to leave me we can still remain friends and possible buisness partners.

So to answer some of the comments - I am on Hrt Officially for a year and a year unofficially. My face has changed some of course I can't see it day to day but I have been told that it has become softer and thinner. I am having electrolysis and laser treatments which I started last June and I am seeing real results now. my hair growth has slowed alot. no hair on my body some fine hair on my legs and arms. I have to go without shaving for four to five days to grow enough for my treatments
I have had laser skin resurfacing to remove sun damage areas and age spots etc.

I met with Dr Speigel who I loved and I have seen the results of the work he does and it is very good. I got a quote fom a surgeon in Belgium his name escapes me at the moment Van something any way his was the cheepest quote but requires travel and a long stay though I seriously considered that. I have not considered Thailand It just seems so far and the travel has got to be cost prohibitive but I don't really know.I sent a complete set of pictures for evaluations. Now that was sobering and a bit embarrasing for a couple of reasons. one I hate the way I look and without make up and glasses and some hair I shudder that anyone would see me in the raw so to speak. I also have this horrible fear , not of an honest critique but of an outright "forget it - not happening" reaction.

I am not the youngest here but I am not letting that get in the way I have waited and struggled for so long that This is my time and I am going to get through this. Maybe I can look forward to 30 peaceful and happy years. I have missed being the young woman but I just might catch the tail end of the middle age group and that's ok atleast I am going through puberty not menopause!

I will post some photos a some point when I am feeling brave for now I consider them medical records kind of like xrays. When I do get surgery I will gladly post befores and afters.

It is extremely difficult to get to support groups from where I live and I do appreciate the support you have shown me here I hope I can contribute something helpful in return.

Kelsy

[Kaitlyn Michele]

FFS support on yahoo is filled with before and afters....

[Zenith]

Oh Dr. Bart from Belgium, I got a quote from him too. Ghent is pricey though.

[Aprilrain]

I would argue that if you have limited funds and your face is as masculine as you say that brow, nose and trachea would be money well spent. Like everyone else is saying a face lift is more about looking younger, not about looking female.

[Kelsy]

Yes Dr. Ghent! for the same procedures offered by Dr. S and Dr. Z Ghent was 10,000 to 14,000 cheaper. Every surgeon that has examined my photos by passed nose work but my hairline is well receded and Dr Z was offering hair transplants in conjunction with advancing the hairline. Dr Ghent suggested a air bag implant to stretch the scalp and was confident that he could advance it considerably. but that takes time and my vacation in Belguim would have been nearly as expensive as the surgery

My age is a big factor and all three agreed that a face lift and neck lift would go a long way in adding a more youthful appearance. The trachea shave is a must and the lip lift is essential, squeeze in eye lid lifts and a 37 percent peal and my looks would change a lot. I may reconsider jaw bone work and spend the money elsewhere. I agree the brow bossing is a major male marker but I can't do it all.

Originally I was going to try to do it all in two seperate sessions lower face and upper face. Picking and choosing is not what I want to do but certain realities are moving me to get as much as I can now while I have the opportunity and worry about the rest down the line. At least I will have started and will gain the confidence to make the leap!

[Zenith]

No you goof, Ghent is the city. Dr. Bart is what he goes by, look up his FB page, I am on it.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Kelsy,

I deeply and profoundly understand about failure not being an option.
My failure would have resulted in my death.

Passing for the fulltime person is something that is beyond important in which to survive in society.

Are you on HRT?? HRT will soften the features in your face after a period of time.

Between FFS and SRS the smart money is on FFS every time Kelsy.

People will always see your face and not your vagina.

"Hey everyone, I'm a woman just look at my vagina!!!""" Hey kids, it doesn't work that way.

Your face is your calling card and you are doing the correct thing in which to survive and thrive as your true self sister.

Take your time Kelsy, think it through then work your plan.

You know I know about the realities of life.

Your going to be just fine sister!! :O)


Julia

[Kelsy]

LMAO, Dr Bart Van De Ven, !!! ooops

[Kelsy]

Kelsy,

I deeply and profoundly understand about failure not being an option.
My failure would have resulted in my death.



You know I know about the realities of life.

Your going to be just fine sister!! :O)


Julia

The horror of the thought of failure is something I have to actively push from my mind. I really scares me
and I can't go there!

I know you know and I know I will

K

[Hope]

The horror of the thought of failure is something I have to actively push from my mind. I really scares me
and I can't go there!

I am full time.

I need FFS... and like you can't afford what I want / need.

I also am not willing / able to fail at this.

But that last bit is what makes the rest of it possible. We all know girls who get comfortable part way, or give up and declare that they are comfortable weather they are or not. I can't imagine being one of those girls, and so I am pushed, driven, and compelled to succeed. This takes 200% of everything you have, you have to be that committed, you have to push that hard. And if you do, you can do it. You will do it. I know the need to be 110% passable, and will one day be there. I am 95+% passable right now, which is nice... but anything less than 100% is failure in my mind.

But then there is the other reality. The other reality that when you start looking around, REALLY looking, looking like you don't do until you start living this life, you start to notice a LOT of manly looking women. You start to notice a lot of square jaws. You start to notice a lot of brow ridges. You start to notice a lot of really tall girls. You start to notice girls who have all 3... you even start to notice the occasional adams apple, though that is a lot less common... and you notice these things on a lot of girls who are 220% passable... because they are cis. The idea of pass-ability never entered their heads. They may occasionally get asked if they are trans, but I doubt it - and if they do, they giggle at the ignorance of the person doing the asking. I have a lesbian friend who gets called "sir" on a semi-regular basis, more often than I do.

The truth is that a LOT of pass-ability comes from confidence. A LOT... maybe 75% of passing is believing it in your own head. I know you don't buy that right now, but it is true, and one day, you will know it too. For right now, just trust me when I tell you it is true. But here is the rub: you don't get that kind of confidence from a surgeon. You don't get that kind of confidence from clothing. You don't get it from reading web forums. You get it from going out, and living your life. Which is almost not fair. Because you have to endure a LOT of really frightening experiences before you get the confidence you need to make it non-frightening. You have to walk into the ladies room 1000 times before you feel like you belong there, and the first 100 times you feel like you are about to get arrested, you get hassled, you get funny looks, you don't know how to behave to blend in... You have to go through the ugly stage in front of the world where you look like a weirdo, or a 16 year old trapped in a 45 year old's body, or like an 85 year old trapped in a 30 year old's body, or like a tranny... but then when you get your act together, and you start to look like who you are... and you have been in the ladies room enough to feel comfortable there, and you get called "Ma'm" most of the time, even wen you are wearing grubby jeans and w/o make up ... when your drivers license gets an F on it... when YOU start to believe - really believe ... then you start to pass... just like all the other manly girls.

But you will never get there sitting on the sofa. Go out, live your life. Make a fool of yourself. Once you know you can withstand the onslaught that comes with looking out of place - you will feel so much more comfortable with yourself.

Now with that in mind - take this advice from a fellow poor-ass girl with brow ridges, a square jaw, a moderate Adams apple, and a HORRIBLE hair line:

Get a good wig. The difference between me in my wig and out of it is night and day. Spend $300, it will last you a year, maybe longer if you take good care of it. you can save a lot towards FFS in that time. Seriously, get a good wig. The first time I got Ma'm-ed" in public was the first day I bought my wig. I'm not joking. If you have a crummy hairline, get a good wig. I hate mine, but I rarely go out w/o it.
Learn to do your make-up. Getting make-up right is critical.
Start HRT. Start hrt. Start HRT. It will help with LOTS of things, including your hair line, but it isn't magic and it doesn't help instantly. The sooner you get started, the sooner you see results.
Start beard removal. Seriously, nothing is worse than having to let your beard grow out for a few days so that you can go in and get zapped... unless it is trying to pass as a girl while you do it.

But most of all: Go out and live.

You CAN do this, but you can't do it painlessly.

[Zenith]

I would also tell you to relax and get out there. Yes, very few of us can stand up to close scrutiny. I can't. BUT, when seeing a woman "TRANS" is not something that pops into the average person's mind. Really. It will be fine. :)

[Hope]

I would also tell you to relax and get out there. Yes, very few of us can stand up to close scrutiny. I can't.

<cough>Bullshit</cough> Girl, that is in your head. You were passable BEFORE FFS.


BUT, when seeing a woman "TRANS" is not something that pops into the average person's mind. Really. It will be fine. :)

This however is absolutely true. We are such statistical anomalies, we are so rarely seen in the wild, that when people encounter one of us, their first thought is that we must be something else. You can use this to your advantage.

[Starling]

I'm not fulltime yet, but I do go out in the daytime around people. I wear a "capless" monofilament wig (about $125 retail), give myself a close shave, wear only lipstick (and sometimes light powder), and try to dress modestly and appropriately, but femininely--if that's a word.

The wig I wear is about my fifth, and it suits my face so well I've bought two more of the same. It's also comfortable enough that I can forget it's on. I get an occasional gimlet-eye, but very often seem to pass without notice, even across a counter. It's a combination of my presentation, my age, which feminizes, and my determination not to let a queer look or two keep me from what I'm doing. After all, I've gotten plenty of those as a male. Haven't we all, at one time or another?

:) Lallie

[Jorja]

I'm not fulltime yet, but I do go out in the daytime around people. I wear a "capless" monofilament wig (about $125 retail), give myself a close shave, wear only lipstick (and sometimes light powder), and try to dress modestly and appropriately, but femininely--if that's a word.

The wig I wear is about my fifth, and it suits my face so well I've bought two more of the same. It's also comfortable enough that I can forget it's on. I get an occasional gimlet-eye, but very often seem to pass without notice, even across a counter. It's a combination of my presentation, my age, which feminizes, and my determination not to let a queer look or two keep me from what I'm doing. After all, I've gotten plenty of those as a male. Haven't we all, at one time or another?

:) Lallie

And you are always going to get those "queer" looks. That is life! Unless you sense trouble or see an angry crowd with pitch forks and torches, smile, go about your business, and act like you own the place.

[Kelsy]

I would also tell you to relax and get out there. Yes, very few of us can stand up to close scrutiny. I can't. BUT, when seeing a woman "TRANS" is not something that pops into the average person's mind. Really. It will be fine. :)

I think Zenith that the premise of my original post is just that. If I wait to be perfect I'll be dead but I'll look great!!! My point is I want to do what I can now so I can get on with it !! I'm stepping out next weekend and hope to meet some interesting folk should be fun plus I'll be getting together with Dr Z at a meet and greet, meet some of the Z girls and have some reserved time for a one on one! You have a whole lot going for you and you look wonderful. I am going to get there or die trying!!

K

[Traci Elizabeth]

I agree with a lot Hope wrote and will second that NOTHING is more important than your confidence. I think Real Life Experience (RLE) as a woman is the soundest advice one could give & as a requirement under the Standards of Care does wonders for your mental state.

Most of us want to be attractive, sexy, and accepted 100%. But the truth as Hope stated is that very few women are beautiful sex pots. Women come in all sizes, shapes, and levels of attractiveness. Some sound like bull frogs while others sound like mice. The point being is that women fall all over the "human" spectrum. So it is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to try to be that "perfect" woman.

What will make you a woman more than anything else is your confidence and your ability to know beyond any doubt that you are a woman and that you live your life as such.

The rest is just "fine" tuning and a lot of us don't even need that.

I have been on HRT for over two years now and I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that I have NOT been called sir ONCE since my transition.

I will grant that I had a very female looking body to begin with but it does not change the fact that confidence conquers all. I never thing of myself in terms of "once" being a male. That concept is so foreign to me.

I am not naive and realize that some of you look like Mr. Universe, have a low bass voice and have as much hair as early man BUT that does not stop you from fulfilling your destiny of womanhood.