Acting with decorum whilst crossdressing. Promoting our cause.

[Beverley Sims]

My thoughts are about exhibitionism by some more militant girls out there.
Going out dressed with a beard or face stubble does not sit with me as it looks like a man in a dress. There are some who are desperate I suppose and these people need support. All they get is ridicule. To push barriers, saying I am a man dressed in womens clothes is just making a political statement and sets our cause back a step I feel. Men wearing skirts. The Scots have that market and they do it well. The only time I use a bit of exhibitionism when trying on clothing is in a small shop where the staff and customers have encouraged and or requested it. Then it becomes a bit of theater. The first sign of disapproval...And SHOW'S over folks!
Does anyone have any views in this area?

[Stephenie S]

Come on dear. There's jerks and idiots everywhere. And the fact is that we can wear what we want when we want to and to heck with the clothing police.

[Foxglove]

It's not something I'd do myself--go out dressed and unshaved. But I think most people in this world would say I have no right to comment on how someone else is dressed. And I think they'd have a point.

[Eryn]

Well, my take on is is "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." I try to blend when I go out, but I'm on the upper limit of height where that is possible. What's a gal who is taller to do? It would be unfair to tell them not to go out to make things easier for me.

At the same time, there are certain CDing activities that aren't my cup of tea and even cause me distress. Some of them are suggestive of someone who might behave illegally and I worry about their effect on the public's already jaundiced view of CDing. Nevertheless, unless they cross the line into illegality they have the right to do as they wish, just as I do.

[NicoleScott]

I agree with Stephanie. Do GG's call out other GG's for exhibitionism and improper decorum? And who sets the standards?

[Polly R]

Well on the rare occasios I go out, I like to think I try and put on the best display of 'fitting in' and merging with GGs. I know I'm far from perfect and wouldn't pass close inspection, but I do try and behave in a decent way.

I tend to think it is a bit against our cause for those who go out unshaven / bearded wearing clothes of the opposite sex. One exception perhaps, those who go out as OTT female impersonators, ie. drag artists, where Joe Public knows what's going on.

However, each to their own...

xx Polly

[kimdl93]

I personally do my best to blend - tho not terribly convincingly. If I do anything for the "cause" it would be to try and be a decent respectful and friendly person to everyone I encounter. I hope that speaks for itself. That being said, I'm not inclined to criticize anyone for being more out front...its just not my cup of java.

[Lori B]

I`m sorry,,,,I knew the panty lines and my camel toe were going to be a problem....:heehee:

[Lucy_Bella]

In the end I would suggest just who's cause are we speaking of? Live and let live....Plenty of Hairy G.G.'s out there as well..

[Miranda-E]

how the man with the beard acts in public while wearing a dress is more important than the fact he's wearing a dress.

A dressing room theatre show is much worse than someone just going about their business in a frock.

[Georgina]

To me, blending in means agreeing that only women have the right to wear skirts and dresses, which I don't agree with. Society,for the most part, sees all TG,CD,TS, etc. as men in skirts. To change this men need to wear dresses. As long as the clothes are worn properly, all should be able to dress as they please.

[Jorja]

decorum.... Does that there mean we cain't spit tobacco and go skinny dippin' ?

[Vanessa Storrs]

If this applies to old, fat, ugly guys in dresses, I refuse to comply with your rules.

[Jenniferathome]

What others do or do not, does not define me. Only I represent myself.

[docrobbysherry]

I agree with u, Beverley! We should ALL think about where we're going and who will see us when we're out!

That being said, I must admit, I HAVE SINNED SISTERS! While waiting in the lobby for my ride to a big Fetish Ball in Atlanta, I agreed to do a TV interview! Dressed in Sherry's hottest, skimpiest, sexiest, outfit! At the time I thot, "Cool"! Afterwards, I thot, "SO STUPID"! Never again! I'm CURED!

[sara.s]

Ideally some of us guys want to be able to dress in the future in women's outfits "without being judged". In the current world, It is quite scary to dress and present as men. I say "Hats off" to the bold few presenting as men but wearing women's clothes. It is they who are directly promoting crossdressing as they actually standout in the crowd while others put makeup try to blend in. I don't understand how you can judge others while you are yourself a cd. It's like pot calling the kettle black.

[linda allen]

My thoughts are about exhibitionism by some more militant girls out there.
Going out dressed with a beard or face stubble does not sit with me as it looks like a man in a dress. There are some who are desperate I suppose and these people need support. All they get is ridicule. To push barriers, saying I am a man dressed in womens clothes is just making a political statement and sets our cause back a step I feel. Men wearing skirts. The Scots have that market and they do it well. The only time I use a bit of exhibitionism when trying on clothing is in a small shop where the staff and customers have encouraged and or requested it. Then it becomes a bit of theater. The first sign of disapproval...And SHOW'S over folks!
Does anyone have any views in this area?

Beverley, I'm with you on this. When I go out dressed, I want to be seen as a woman, not a freak. I may not be an attractive woman, I may not be really feminine, but I'm trying to be a woman.

I realize from other threads and some responses to this one, that everyone doesn't agree with me. Some folks want to call attention to themselves and some folks want to anoy others by not conforming. In my view, they are giving crossdressers a bad name.

They probably have a legal right to do this and although I would rather they didn't, they are going to do it anyway, just because they can.

Those are my views.

[Tina B.]

I'm a guy, and I wear a dress, that Say's to me, shut up, who are you to talk about what others wear. What's funny is you think they are hurting the movement, but if you listen to them, they seem to be accepted better than those trying to pass as a women.
we can't ask for people to accept what we wear, and then Denye that same right to others!
Tina B.

[Beth Mays]

Sorry, but I did not read the rules that were posted when I sign up for this "movement".. oh wait.. I cant find my membership card ... oh well guess I am just on my own.



Beth

[Jlake2121]

If only I were blind, then I could see…
It’s the character of the man that that he truly be…

His promises and desires be not true…
Only the things that he was willing to do…

Cover him with mask a robe or a cloak…
Is it not still he, the captain of the boat?

If only I were blind, then I could see..
Twas not the man on trial, it was me…

[jillleanne]

Well, my take on is is "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." I try to blend when I go out, but I'm on the upper limit of height where that is possible. What's a gal who is taller to do? It would be unfair to tell them not to go out to make things easier for me.

At the same time, there are certain CDing activities that aren't my cup of tea and even cause me distress. Some of them are suggestive of someone who might behave illegally and I worry about their effect on the public's already jaundiced view of CDing. Nevertheless, unless they cross the line into illegality they have the right to do as they wish, just as I do.

Agreed Eryn. My only concern to add to your statement would be the safety of the person. By drawing attention to oneself by expressing as a man in a dress for instance, you risk physical violence to yourself by people not so accepting, and there are many as we all know. If that is one's mission in life, good luck to you. I have always hated violence of any kind and have no interest in finding myself in a confrontation for any reason. I have always been able to avoid or solve any conflict by using intelligence and reasoning as my tools.

[Cheryl T]

While I do my best to be just another woman in the world when I go out I can't condone or condemn others for their choices.
I would prefer that we all be at our best while in the public eye to further our desire to be accepted for who we are and not what we are wearing, but I understand that some of us have needs that are not in line with this. About a year ago I heard that a local "group" would be having an outing to a local Dress Barn one Saturday. My wife and I we in the neighborhood that day and dropped in (I in drab that day). As we shopped it was all to easy to see who was who. One girl was in her 60's, had her own hair in pigtails and was wearing a pink tutu. I'm sorry, but this is not for me and I do feel it gives a bad view of us all to the general public. We look like silly, fetishistic weirdos when we do things like this.
Maybe my opinion stems from the fact that all my life I have desired to be able to go out in public. Not to be noticed, not to wave the TG/CD flag and say look at me, but to just be able to express this woman that resides in my without fear of reprisal. We all have different needs, but please...just a little decorum.

:2c:

[DanaR]

My thoughts are about exhibitionism by some more militant girls out there.
Going out dressed with a beard or face stubble does not sit with me as it looks like a man in a dress.

Years ago, my wife and I attended an event in downtown Seattle; which had a very diverse crowd. Anyway while walking through the crowd we passed a person with a beard with a very feminine looking face; which was done up to be pretty with a lot of makeup. Except for the beard, he looked nice. It completely freaked my wife out. She had never seen anything like this and didn't like it; which I felt a little uncomfortable too. Sometimes we draw lines. YMMV

[Foxglove]

While I do my best to be just another woman in the world when I go out I can't condone or condemn others for their choices.
I would prefer that we all be at our best while in the public eye to further our desire to be accepted for who we are and not what we are wearing, but I understand that some of us have needs that are not in line with this. About a year ago I heard that a local "group" would be having an outing to a local Dress Barn one Saturday. My wife and I we in the neighborhood that day and dropped in (I in drab that day). As we shopped it was all to easy to see who was who. One girl was in her 60's, had her own hair in pigtails and was wearing a pink tutu. I'm sorry, but this is not for me and I do feel it gives a bad view of us all to the general public. We look like silly, fetishistic weirdos when we do things like this.
Maybe my opinion stems from the fact that all my life I have desired to be able to go out in public. Not to be noticed, not to wave the TG/CD flag and say look at me, but to just be able to express this woman that resides in my without fear of reprisal. We all have different needs, but please...just a little decorum.

:2c:

Hello, Cheryl! I understand what you're saying here, and to a certain extent I agree with your views and with similar views that other girls have expressed. I've seen CDers do things that make me cringe, and I would also worry about how this reflects on our community as a whole.

But there is a very real problem here. Whereas we may not like the way some of our sisters dress and express themselves, that's exactly what the community at large of "normal" people would say about all of us. So if we want decorum, where exactly do we draw the line? How will we come to an agreement amongst ourselves as to what is good for us as a community and what is not?

This isn't an easy problem for me to resolve in my own mind. I want freedom so that I can express myself. And granted that I'd be a lot more conservative than some girls, how can I ask for freedom for myself while trying to limit it for others? This is a hurdle I'm having trouble getting over.

I view this as a very serious issue, because it is something that could potentially split the CD community, when surely what we need above all is unity.

[Mark/Rebecca]

I agree that it is important to look your best. It is not about passing as many girls are too tall or broad shouldered to do that, but taking the time to look as feminine and pretty as possible may help women to become supportive. I have seen pretty trannies (I'm guessing they were) shopping and fitting in, and I think women see it as a respectful, non threatening, and sincere need to be one of them, and not a caracturisation of women. I am so happy when I see a lovely gurl making a positive impression in public, and saddened by half ass attempts that set us back.

[Nigella]

Fortunately a cloning machine is not on the horizon, so we are still all individuals with our own views.

Whilst I do have strong views on some aspects of our lives, telling people that they should conform to some standard of acceptability is so wrong. If you are comfortable going out dressed as a school girl with hair on the chest and chin, with none on the top of the head, go for it.

[EllieOPKS]

I would end up laughing at a guy walking towards me in a dress and heels with a full beard and mustache. It would remind me of the old side shows at a carnival. I think some people do it just for the shock affect and it reenforces the stereotypical mind set of a cross dresser. If someone tries to look presentable, regardless how successful, I am can be supportive.

[sissystephanie]

First of all, I am a crossdresser! And I am obviously a member of this forum. I do not remember reading the rules mentioned in the OP of this thread. In fact, I am sure they were not there!!

That said, when my wife was alive I went out as Stephanie looking like a Stephanie! No beard or any facial hair! Because my dear late wife always did my makeup and fixed my wig. Now she is gone, but I still go out as Stephanie. I am fully dressed enfemme when I go out, but wearing no makeup and no wig. So yes I am a man in female clothes! As long as I act like the man that I am, I am not breaking any laws! And I do not believe that I am hurting the rights of other crossdressers! How I dress is MY right, not that of anyone else. With the possible exception of my own children, and they don't care! I have gone out with a beard, and nobody even paid any attention to me. Most of the time I am clean shaven!

[AllieSF]

I am in freedom of speech, expression and beliefs camp. The other recent thread that got closed and this one are really only dealing with a very, very small minority of the larger group, community, whether we consider ourselves part of it or not. I dress to blend, but respect and will never believe that we should through peer pressure or otherwise force/coerce someone to act the way that we think they should act. We don't like how someone dresses and think that they look like a fool. So what? I don't have to associate with them and neither do you. If you think that they give us a bad name, which they might do to a very small minority of the general public, so what? In every phase and situation of our lives as human beings, wherever we live, someone is doing something that we or others don't like. So, should we set up rules to control the extremists? No, not at all. We have free speech and that is clearly defined, even to our sometimes disagreement, through written laws and court cases. I don't like it that people can burn our flag, but it is their right to do that. If we start limiting what can or cannot be said, we then start to reduce that freedom.

I am an adult and I have put up with a lot of things that I do not like. We all do. A very few MtF TG's who wear a dress and no wig or have a beard are not going to have a material effect on the overall progress of "the cause" just because there are so few of them out there. As was said quite well in the closed thread, it is many times the extremists, the ones at either end of the pendulum or spectrum, that actually get things moving toward significant positive changes from the status quo. So, I have no problem at all that Joe dressed a Joanna goes out in a dress with a beard, or Al dressed as Allie goes out in a bikini to Starbuck's for the morning coffee. Joanna and Allie will have to deal individually with the consequences of their actions. I do not see the sky falling ("The Cause" failing) because of that. Their actions can actually have positive results when there is more than just a visual interaction, i.e. some verbal communication, as was related by one of our bearded MtF CD's in that closed thread. Because I accept everyone's right to do express themselves as they have a right to do does not mean that I may want to associate with them. They do their thing and I do mine. I think that we should all consider the bigger picture and not the insignificant possible negative results of a very few people who just happen to be expressing their rights.

[Beverley Sims]

Well girls I put the stick in the beehive and stirred up a hornets nest.
I am not here to dictate other peoples actions but I did want to draw a cross section of feelings from the wider community. I think I did that, and I thank you all for replying. I am just going to duck the bullets and hide for a while here.
Thanks all and I am getting stares in Berlin at the moment from GGs and older women.
Maybe I don't fit somewhere either.

[Mark/Rebecca]

I have gone out with a beard, and nobody even paid any attention to me. Most of the time I am clean shaven!

I am pretty sure they weren't ignoring you, they were avoiding you. That is your right, however unfeminine it is

[JulieK1980]

What somebody does legally is no concern of mine. It's their business.

[Lori B]

While I do my best to be just another woman in the world when I go out I can't condone or condemn others for their choices.
I would prefer that we all be at our best while in the public eye to further our desire to be accepted for who we are and not what we are wearing, but I understand that some of us have needs that are not in line with this. About a year ago I heard that a local "group" would be having an outing to a local Dress Barn one Saturday. My wife and I we in the neighborhood that day and dropped in (I in drab that day). As we shopped it was all to easy to see who was who. One girl was in her 60's, had her own hair in pigtails and was wearing a pink tutu. I'm sorry, but this is not for me and I do feel it gives a bad view of us all to the general public. We look like silly, fetishistic weirdos when we do things like this.
Maybe my opinion stems from the fact that all my life I have desired to be able to go out in public. Not to be noticed, not to wave the TG/CD flag and say look at me, but to just be able to express this woman that resides in my without fear of reprisal. We all have different needs, but please...just a little decorum.

:2c:

"I heard that a local "group" ">>> I guess I never got the invitation....lol:heehee: hi Cheryl :wave:

[Julia_in_Pa]

At support meetings I help with many TS/IS women that are in transition.

Of course there are also cross dressers there as well as there should be.

Here's the issue; There are two factions at our meeting which can number upwards of 50 or 60 people.

The first faction are CD's that blend to the best of their ability. This group I associate with and have many friends from.

The second faction are what I call the sex worker group. This group are CD's dressed in leather knee high boots or stripper pumps with tight dresses and makeup that would make Tammy Fay Baker look like a 12 year old boy.

Our group as a whole meets at various eateries around town prior to the meeting then we go out afterward for a few drinks.

There has been a rift for quite some time now between the sex worker crowd and the rest of the group due to the majority of the group distancing themselves from the sex worker crowd while in public.

There are a million issues with public perception of trans people being sexual deviants and to associate in public with the trans hooker set only reinforces this negative stereotype.

Hey, I'm all for wearing leather and putting a bridal in my partners mouth at home while giving her a good beating but leave it at home wear it belongs.


Julia

[Acastina]

While I do my best to be just another woman in the world when I go out I can't condone or condemn others for their choices.
I would prefer that we all be at our best while in the public eye to further our desire to be accepted for who we are and not what we are wearing, but I understand that some of us have needs that are not in line with this. About a year ago I heard that a local "group" would be having an outing to a local Dress Barn one Saturday. My wife and I we in the neighborhood that day and dropped in (I in drab that day). As we shopped it was all to easy to see who was who. One girl was in her 60's, had her own hair in pigtails and was wearing a pink tutu. I'm sorry, but this is not for me and I do feel it gives a bad view of us all to the general public. We look like silly, fetishistic weirdos when we do things like this.
Maybe my opinion stems from the fact that all my life I have desired to be able to go out in public. Not to be noticed, not to wave the TG/CD flag and say look at me, but to just be able to express this woman that resides in my without fear of reprisal. We all have different needs, but please...just a little decorum.
:2c:

It's a fairly common phenomenon that some folks express mental and emotional pathologies through the vehicle of CD. In other words, gender expression is not the primary underlying motivation; CD is a device to facilitate exhibitionism, anti-social emotions, or something else. That's where you find the absurdities of shopping in a tutu or dressing like some kind of outlandish cartoon character, and we do indeed come across as "silly, fetishistic weirdos" if we do. Then there's simply a tentative connection to reality expressing itself this way. Most of us are more serious, observant, conformist, and polite than the extreme you describe.


Years ago, my wife and I attended an event in downtown Seattle; which had a very diverse crowd. Anyway while walking through the crowd we passed a person with a beard with a very feminine looking face; which was done up to be pretty with a lot of makeup. Except for the beard, he looked nice. It completely freaked my wife out. She had never seen anything like this and didn't like it; which I felt a little uncomfortable too. Sometimes we draw lines. YMMV

Yes, I suppose Johnny Depp could pull that off, but it's still genderf**k and intended to provoke extreme reactions. The original point of this thread was questioning society's reactions to extreme looks and its effect on the efforts of most of us to be as normal as we can, given that our "hobby" is way out of the mainstream. The freak show may be amusing, both within and outside of our community, but it does stoke popular prejudices.

[Marleena]

I'm totally open to people dressing as they want, but I also see the struggle the TS women are going through for acceptance. If and when I eventually leave the confines of my house I will want to look as passable as possible based on what I have to work with.

[Karren H]

I always act with decorum no mater how I'm dressed. That's never going to change. But personally I don't think acting any way is going to "promote" our cause... Assuming we have one. Best you can hope for is to not damage or detract from "it".... Imho.

[Beverley Sims]

Karen Strikes Again!
A smug look and a smart answer.
I need your photographer and writer.

[Brynn_A]

Ms Hutton, I bow to you.

[Rachel Flowers]

I find it ironic, and perhaps a little worrying, that as a group supporting each other against the expectations of society at large that we should not wear women's clothes, here we are suggesting that we should conform to the expectations of the TG community at large that we should attempt to fool strangers into thinking we are women whenever wearing them. For me this is about being myself, it is about not having to lie about what and who I am and while a big (bigger than I thought) part of me is Rachel, a big part of me is Dave too and this beard is not coming off.

Surely a successful outcome for us would be that the world regards clothes as irrelevant and no-one else's business. At that point it wouldn't be a taboo that the sex industry could exploit, and no-one would bat an eyelid at a gorgeously dressed person, nor wonder which genitals they had underneath, no-one would be fazed at a man with a beard in a dress, nor a woman in a chalk-strip suit and bowler hat. (Hmmm.) I know we've got to be sensitive and we've got to take one step at a time but it's not the stubbly chins that brings disrepute to us, it's the ladyboys in the porn, isn't it?

[Stephanie47]

I agree with Stephanie. Do GG's call out other GG's for exhibitionism and improper decorum? And who sets the standards?

Darn right GG's call out other GG's for 'exhibitionism and improper decorum.' I'd say GG's make more comments concerning ill-dressed, sloppy, ****ty looking women than a bearded guy in a dress. After all, another GG represents GG's. A bearded man in a dress? Well, he doesn't represent them at all.

[AllieSF]

Stephanie, do these GG's call out the other poorly dressed GG's to their face, or by just making comments among themselves? I personally have never seen a GG make that kind of comment directly to another women. I have seen the low life GG's attacking others for whatever reason they have, but not regular GG's. Probably because a decent person GG, or not, does not need to lower themselves to anyone else's level. So, that being said, most people do or have at one time made comments among themselves on how someone else has presented themselves in public, but it seems to me, it is the men who normally cause the majority of the public disturbances when they don't like how someone is dressed or is presenting themselves.

[Nigella]

Lets face it, it will never matter how we represent/present when all you need to do is type crossdresser or transsexual into a search engine. Compared to the results you find there, we're a very very small minority.

[sandra-leigh]

I am pretty sure they weren't ignoring you, they were avoiding you. That is your right, however unfeminine it is

In my experience, what you express as yourself being "pretty sure" about is not accurate. Some of the people I know have gone through periods (years, even) where there were reasons sufficient for them to keep their beards. I never observed them being avoided when we were out.


A very few MtF TG's who wear a dress and no wig or have a beard are not going to have a material effect on the overall progress of "the cause" just because there are so few of them out there.

My hair is shoulder-length; it is not clear to me what the point of my wearing a wig would be? Is it the few stray white hairs at the temple? My wife has more white hairs than I do (but concentrated in different places.) Is it my hair color that is a problem? Would it be acceptable to the Arbitrators Of The Cause if I just dyed my hair the same shade as a wig? My hair color changes with the seasons, from Golden Blonde in the high summer though to Dark Ash Blonde by the beginning of winter, and Light Golden Brown by the end of winter. All of which are popular GG hair colors. Is that the problem, that my hair color looks too natural and needs to look more fake to be acceptable??

I have gone out in a skirt or dress with no wig more times than I would bother counting. And I do not mean "Go out on the town", I mean to my appointments, or grocery shopping, or on the bus, to a restaurant, whatever I happen to have to do that day. Just like a GG would who happened to choose to wear a skirt or dress that day.

What signs should I be looking for to tell that people are avoiding me? They don't move away from me, they don't stare at me, they don't look at me and then avert their gaze, they don't hide their children's eyes, they don't look at me and sniff loudly, they don't refuse to talk to me (*). What they do do is talk to me more than when I used to present as a guy.

How many people around the city have seen me by now? I don't know. Certainly more than 10,000, I am I sure. I might be "very few", but I get around, just going about my business. I am the first "real-life" cross-dresser that many people have seen, and Yes, I do make a difference, just by being myself and doing every-day things. A "man" wearing a suit-skirt and standing on the bus holding cartons of milk, is not a threat or a spectacle: s/he is an example that cross-dressers and transsexuals can be "just ordinary folk".

(*) Though there was one woman who was clearly Not Talking To Me. She came in to the nail salon 25 minutes before closing, expecting a hour-long treatment, and she was quite demanding, including insisting that the owner hand over a bottle of polish that was in use so that she could have a look at it. The owner didn't say anything to the woman, but instead of hustling to take care of the woman, the owner and her sister both paid attention to me. The woman got hot under the collar and glared at me :shocked: .

Okay, so I was "being used" a small bit there to point out to the woman how low she ranked. The owner was more than prepared to lose the woman's business, but she was not going to risk losing my business by dropping what she was doing to work on the woman. As the owner said when I saw her next, she may be running a business that depends on clients, but that doesn't give anyone (like the woman) the right to treat her like a servant. Her cross-dressing clients might be eccentric, but they treat her well.

[AllieSF]

Sandra, whether I clearly made my point or not, your example of how you live your life does it for me. Your experience is not necessarily exactly what I was pointing out. I personally applaud and like what you are doing, especially the interacting with others. I was trying to make the point that when it is a small minority that is different, not just in the LGBT area, that small minority will probably have very little if any impact on the general public's opinion on the larger majority that the small one may be part of. Bringing it back to MtF CD's who go out with facial stubble or beards, mustaches, or dressed as woman with short hair, i.e. no wig and not trying for the full female look, the topic of this thread, those that do that, in general and in my opinion, will have minimal, if any, negative effect on the opinions of others regarding the larger MtF CD population. In fact, I believe that they have a positive impact on others. What you have described as your experience shows that if someone acts naturally and interfaces with others, even the beard or mustache becomes a non-issue and truly does give a positive presentation of who we are, real people who may in the eyes of others look and/or dress differently from them.

[Momarie]

I have to say, I'm really kinda shocked at the intolerance expressed for others here.

[Contessa]

When I started reading this thread as well as the other one like it about a week ago, wondered something. What do I know of my situation and the other person's presenting differently than I. A guy in a dress with a beard or hair anywhere not expected is just a guy in a dress. If the person is not wearing makeup or a wig then they don't care so why should I. If he is out and asking me if I have an extra wig and can he use it then I might have a thought. Or maybe he lost it in a fight but if no make up and wearing a stache and beard. Hummm I don't know. If I saw in a man in a evening dress and a beard a wig, madeup nicely hose and heels, I might start looking for a camera man as I might be on a movie set. If I was not at home and forgot my razor would I dress and go for it. What of the situation. I know i am not pretty but I still want to look pretty good(smile). At least that's what girls do.

Contessa Marie

[MissMarcie]

Look…here’s the deal…
This is an issue here that people here will NEVER agree on. You have your segment of Cd’s who are damned and determined to do exactly what they want, and nobody will ever convince them differently. They don’t care about passing or blending in, or if people think they’re an escaped mental patient in public. They want a free pass to do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want, in other words “anything goes”. Then you have the segment of Cd’s who do their very best to blend in and pass in society. You also have the pompous Cd’s who pretend to be “appalled” by all the intolerance. This segment is possibly the most amusing.
It’s a vicious cycle that will never change, and basically it’s like beating a dead horse.

[sandra-leigh]

You have your segment of Cd’s who are damned and determined to do exactly what they want, and nobody will ever convince them differently. They don’t care about passing or blending in, or if people think they’re an escaped mental patient in public. They want a free pass to do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want, in other words “anything goes”.

Supposing that you are right on that: is that a problem?

When women in England started wearing pants, were they trying to "blend in" ? Did they (as a group) stop wearing pants because some people literally thought that they were insane? I know some people still think that "allowing it" Ruined Society, and I know that some people still push for laws (or at least school rules) requiring girls to wear skirts or dresses on "moral grounds" -- but 100-ish years later, does the average person care? And if so, is not that caring more on the side of now believing it is unreasonable to prohibit women from wearing pants?

You would feel I was being less damaging to society if I went out in guy clothes that were "saggy pants" style, than if I went out in a dress but no wig?

[Billie Jean]

Sandra there is no reasoning with Marcie. She is bent to her way or no way. She was on the offensive in my thread from this past week where I asked how many went out with facial hair. My thoughts are like yours, as to the women weren't trying to pass but be themselves. That said thats all I want to be, ME. The laws are changing here in the US to give me the right to do just that. My wearing a dress in public is no different from when the women began to wear pants, which is now common place. Billie Jean

[MissMarcie]

Supposing that you are right on that: is that a problem?

Yes, it is a problem. Is it going to change? No.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes, it is a problem. Is it going to change? No.

So, having claimed that it is a problem, how about describing more precisely how it is a problem?

[Billie Jean]

Yes, it is a problem. Is it going to change? No.You need to watch attacking people on here or the mods might ban you, not that I see that as a problem. No one is telling you what you should do and you should recipricate. Billie Jean

[AllieSF]

Macie: And there are those people who think that their way is the only way and everyone should toe the line to their own narrow minded opinions, which can also be amusing. When I say people should dress and do what they want as long as it is legal, I also mean, though I may not state it all the time, that they also need to accept the consequences of those actions. I personally do not want anyone telling me how to act or be, and I respect others' rights to feel the same or different. I can respect your opinions, but I can not respect them when they infringe on my rights. If you want to recommend something that is one thing, but if you want to talk down to people that is totally a different matter. No one is perfect neither you nor me.

[MissMarcie]

If you want to recommend something that is one thing, but if you want to talk down to people that is totally a different matter. No one is perfect neither you nor me.
Nope, I'm not talking down to anyone. I already said this discussion is absolutely pointless, because no minds will be changed. Why this stupid topic keeps being brought up, I have no idea.

[JulieK1980]

I already said this discussion is absolutely pointless, because no minds will be changed. Why this stupid topic keeps being brought up, I have no idea.

So why comment on it? By commenting, you are in essence continuing the thread. If you dislike the topic, move on to a topic you prefer.

[Foxglove]

You also have the pompous Cd’s who pretend to be “appalled” by all the intolerance. This segment is possibly the most amusing.


Hello, Marcie! I have to say I find this comment well off the mark and rather ungenerous. I think that if CDers raise the question of intolerance, it's a perfectly valid point. If we're asking for tolerance from society at large, can we practice it within our own ranks? I can understand Miss X questioning Miss Y's appearance, but should we go so far as to encourage Miss Y to conform to what the rest of us would like to see? I think perhaps points could be made on either side of the argument. But when some CDers say that they're absolutely opposed to discrimination within our own ranks, I don't know that we should automatically qualify them as pompous and amusing. It is possible that they're quite sincere in what they're saying, you know, and their point of view is certainly worthy of consideration.

Best wishes, Annabelle.

[noeleena]

Hi.

Then i must have a few problems then .= no hair crowning glory not much else were ether,
A very masculine looking facial features , body wise very female / woman type to look at .

I dress as a female /woman because i dont have male clothes, i dress nicely eligantly & some lovely clothes as well.
How am i seen accepted in socity, & what makes myself different.

No make up will do much for my face, so dont use it, nore is there a need. okay thats the basics ,

Yet , im accepted as a normal female / woman dispite how i look would you be willing to spend time with me go out with me just be seen with me. let me put it this way & yes the numbers are right, my friends people i know & spend time with some 1000 people have accepted the way i look who i am & why i am the way i am. no ifs buts or oh we cant have any thing to do with you because ...because . you are so different. am i really, may be i am ,

yet why can i go pretty much any were & people know & will talk with this person who because of a difference from birth is not the same as others Yet there is no issue's with accepting im a woman.

I know of many others who are different in thier own ways be it mental or body wise , yet we accept each other, so if & because im different then can we not who come here accept no matter the reason can we not then accept each other, i keep away from the lables as much as i can ,

tho what i do see is its each ones attitude that causes most problems here, is it just how we look or are seen or is there a underlying factor of not accepting other differences,because of not wonting to, some times i think it is,

...noeleena...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nope, I'm not talking down to anyone. I already said this discussion is absolutely pointless, because no minds will be changed. Why this stupid topic keeps being brought up, I have no idea.

what a great way to pretend you are "winning"... LOL

I believe X....
You believe Y..

No minds will ever be changed, therefore, I am correct, it's X...
plus the discussion is pointless, so i will continue to post my opinion..

You are correct that you are not talking down to anyone however...that would be impossible ..

[Nigella]

... Why this stupid topic keeps being brought up, I have no idea.

I wonder how many posts you did as a newbie that others considered stupid, but at least acted with some decorum and did not slight the OP by posting a comment such as yours

Nigella

[MissMarcie]

Hello, Marcie! I have to say I find this comment well off the mark and rather ungenerous.
Oh well...I disagree.

I think that if CDers raise the question of intolerance, it's a perfectly valid point.
And, I think it's a joke to even discuss facial hair on Cd's. enough said.


No minds will ever be changed, therefore, I am correct, it's X...
plus the discussion is pointless, so i will continue to post my opinion..

You can disagree with my opinion all you want. That doesn't make my opinion any less valid than the opposing side's opinion. Do I think I'll change your mind? Nope, ain't gonna happen. Are you going to change mine? Nope, ain't gonna happen. You post to refute my post and I'll post to refute yours. And so it goes. Thus, beating a dead horse.

[Kali]

There are just too many people here who take the man in the dress who isn't trying to pass as some horrible affront on their own personal choices. They fail to understand the difference between someone who clearly isn't trying to pass as a woman and someone who is. They use inflamatory language in an attempt to sound like they are speaking for everyone, and are, in effect, simply trolling.

These are the same people who if they weren't CDs, would be trying to pass laws to make life for the transgendered as difficult as possible; they are simply intolerant of anyone who doesn't share their opinion and who might upset their perceived apple cart. They are no different from any other bigot; they simply have a different set of triggers.

Many simply seem to be scared, as if the behavior of another person who is only coincidentally associated with their perceived "community" will have negative impact on them personally. Perhaps it is this fear, combined with their inabilty to accept themselves fully, that leads them to lash out. I don't know why they exhibit this behavior but it is unfortunate and reflects badly on their perceived "community"; far worse than the guy with a beard that goes out in public in a dress.

The worst of these people are those that hide behind the anonimity of the Internet. They post behind a made up screen name, with no information about themselves or their lives shared or made visible. At best these people are simply scared; a few here are clearly just trolling. At least the trolls are easily spotted; no pictures, no location, never contribute anything substantive, and constantly post in threads where they stir the pot by making blanket statements and try to end the conversation with a dismissive comment. They aren't willing to engage in any sort of intelligent discourse, becase when they are called out they immediately move to unsubstantiatable claims and ad hominen attacks. They simply add no value to the site, but because the site endeavors to be as inclusive as possible (something they themselves rail against), their presence, and behaviors, as long as they don't get too out of control, are tolerated.

[sandra-leigh]

So apparently it is a "problem" (somehow!) that I go out in a skirt or dress without wearing a wig.

I just checked, and my hair is presently 16 inches long; and it is currently not very far from the best-selling wig shade "Dark Ash Blonde". If I got my hair carefully cut off, and made in to a human-hair wig, and then wore that wig made of my own hair, would that satisfy those who think I am being a problem?

How about if I just pin some webbing in under my hair, so that it looks like a wig?

[MissMarcie]

This isn't an easy problem for me to resolve in my own mind. I want freedom so that I can express myself. And granted that I'd be a lot more conservative than some girls, how can I ask for freedom for myself while trying to limit it for others? This is a hurdle I'm having trouble getting over.
I view this as a very serious issue, because it is something that could potentially split the CD community, when surely what we need above all is unity.

Does your definition of “freedom” support facial hair on CD’s?
And if so, do you believe this is a positive image for the “CD community” where you claim unity is needed? Do you really feel this is a helpful representation to the general public for the “CD community” ?
I hate to burst your bubble, but this thread is pretty much a perfect example of the non-existence of anyone’s definition of a “CD community”. Just sayin…

[sandra-leigh]

Does your definition of “freedom” support facial hair on CD’s?
And if so, do you believe this is a positive image for the “CD community” where you claim unity is needed? Do you really feel this is a helpful representation to the general public for the “CD community” ?

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

My conception of the CD community is not one that requires a binary gender divide. Cross-dressing is not defined by being an "imitation woman", only by wearing clothes more commonly associated with the other sex. Different people have different motivations, and it is a disservice to "the CD community" to pretend that everyone has the same motivations or goals.

If I choose to wear something, it does not in any way require that you wear the same style. You express your inner self one way, and let me express my inner self my own way.

What bothers me about my dressing these days, leading me to feel embarrassed and that I am doing the community no good, has nothing to do with facial hair or wigs: it is that a bunch of my tops do not fit me right these days, and seem okay when I put on, but later ride up on my stomach leaving my belly exposed. But perhaps that would be acceptable if only I was wearing a wig?

[MissMarcie]

Yes, Yes, and Yes.
My response was directed toward Annabelle Larousse, not you.

But, I’ll respond to your “Yes, Yes, and Yes” comment. I guess this means that you’d prefer an
“anything goes” situation to be present in this non-existent “CD Community“ ? And, if this is the case, I’m guessing it would also be ok for people to walk around in public topless or bottomless ? I'm guessing it would also be ok for people to openly have sex in public if “anything goes” ?

[AllieSF]

Marcie, I like Sandra Leigh's answer. To answer your questions to her, I have no problem with anyone dressing as they want in public as long as it is legal. I actually, have no problem how anyone dresses period, because so far the extreme dressing is such a minuscule minority that it seems to me that we make it a bigger issue than it really is. There are nude beaches and even some topless beaches in the USA. If you do not like how people dress in public work to change the laws and make it illegal. Fashion police are really not needed. Having sex in public is illegal. Anymore non-topic related questions?

[Lynn Marie]

Even though I'd rather see all CD's doing everything they can to look good and avoid mixing up the genders, I'm not the judge. I may not like it, but I can only encourage others to make the effort to present fully as the female that they are only partially emulating.

[ReineD]

I'd like to propose a different way of looking at this.

There are people who recognize that gender is not binary (either fully male or fully female). This is a difficult view to uphold in our mainstream society especially among our more traditionalist groups, although in academia, postmodern views depart from the notion of binary gender with the belief that gender identity is a pure social construct and there are many ways to be and to express ourselves. The postmodernist view of gender is criticized in some circles, but still the seed has been planted since the 1990s, the momentum is growing, and the construction of gender is being discussed and redefined in ways previously unheard of.

I'm observing a trend among some transgenders who may think of themselves as gender non-conformists. They embrace all of who they are, which means presenting either as a masculine woman or a feminine man, or an androgynous individual, rather than to seek any body modification. Andrej Pevic, as beautiful as he is, embodies this spirit. So do the multitude of masculine women in the lesbian community:

http://chronicle.com/article/Queer-20/130156/

And so I dare say some MtFs, who choose to not hide the fact they are male, are catching up.

There's a certain honesty in recognizing one's biological reality and choosing to not see it as a mistake, while at the same time throwing away current gender constructs. If a birth male feels feminine, why must he pretend that he does not have facial hair, or he has breasts? Why must he apologize for who he is or hide behind a false veneer? Granted, the mainstream may not be quite ready to deal with this, but in some circles it is beginning to be accepted and we have to start somewhere.

So maybe a simple answer to the question posed in the OP, is that some MtF transgenders see themselves at the female end of the gender binary, while others do not.

[sandra-leigh]

I guess this means that you’d prefer an
“anything goes” situation to be present in this non-existent “CD Community“ ? And, if this is the case, I’m guessing it would also be ok for people to walk around in public topless or bottomless ? I'm guessing it would also be ok for people to openly have sex in public if “anything goes” ?

Sure sounds like a Straw_man argument to me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sure sounds like a Straw_man argument to me.
That's exactly what it is...

Don't bite...no matter what you write, it will get requoted and followed by " no it isnt"

[giuseppina]

Surely this topic can be discussed without things turning into a free-for-all.

[sara.s]

What is considered CD'ing is normal elsewhere. There are so many cultures where men wear male skirts called kilt, lungi, male sarong etc and still present as men and they can still look good. It also makes it easier to tolerate hot temperatures like 100F+. Most men who wear male skirts like the air circulation to the privates. You will realize its value when you have a scheduled regular power (electricity) cut in the hot summer.

[Jason+]

My thoughts are about exhibitionism by some more militant girls out there.
Going out dressed with a beard or face stubble does not sit with me as it looks like a man in a dress. There are some who are desperate I suppose and these people need support. All they get is ridicule. To push barriers, saying I am a man dressed in womens clothes is just making a political statement and sets our cause back a step I feel. Does anyone have any views in this area?

I prefer my face shaved. Keeping it that way doesn't make me any less a man in a dress. I'd like to offer an alternative motivation to desperation and political statements. The dress I chose to wear today was simply the one I felt like wearing. It didn't cross my when I was choosing between two dresses which would cause less of a controversy on me. The facial hair that you have such a disdainful loathing for may be an inherently valued part of the personality of the men who are not keeping it solely to satisfy the expectations of others around them.


Beverley, I'm with you on this. When I go out dressed, I want to be seen as a woman, not a freak. I may not be an attractive woman, I may not be really feminine, but I'm trying to be a woman.

I realize from other threads and some responses to this one, that everyone doesn't agree with me. Some folks want to call attention to themselves and some folks want to anoy others by not conforming. In my view, they are giving crossdressers a bad name.

Those are my views.

I am going to assume that most of the men in question who wear their facial hair proudly with their skirts and dresses have accepted the fact that they are not women and don't necessarily wish to be. Is there no middle ground between "woman" and "freak?" Of the examples I have encountered here at this site none of the men who keep their facial hair and wear womens clothing have done so for attention or simply to stir the pot.




There's a certain honesty in recognizing one's biological reality and choosing to not see it as a mistake, while at the same time throwing away current gender constructs. If a birth male feels feminine, why must he pretend that he does not have facial hair, or he has breasts? Why must he apologize for who he is or hide behind a false veneer? Granted, the mainstream may not be quite ready to deal with this, but in some circles it is beginning to be accepted and we have to start somewhere.


Absolutely a priceless statement from ReineD. If we can accept that individual perhaps we can judge based on the conduct rather than the threat (whether real or perceived) to the cause.

[Badtranny]

Well, ...I was trying to stay out of this thread because I didn't see that I had a horse in the race but after reading through the thread something occurred to me.

At first glance it would seem that a bearded cross dresser would be a horrible affront to the "community" But what the community needs isn't more men pretending to be women and being offended when someone "reads" them, the community needs more amiable ambassadors to spread the good word that we (the community) might be a lil freaky but we're not freaks.

To be perfectly honest I don't really see a difference between an obviously masculine man in a dress, wig and makeup, and an obviously bearded man in a dress. They both look like men. If they are both friendly and likeable then they're both representing themselves and the community well. If one of them is kinda creepy and surly, then that one is not helping the community or himself.

I'm a lot more concerned with creepers getting their jollies in dressing rooms than I am about a man in a dress. Maybe seeing more people enjoying their lives would help the general public to loosen that stick in their rear ends.

[ReineD]

Maybe seeing more people enjoying their lives would help the general public to loosen that stick in their rear ends.

Precisely. :)

............

[Christa001]

Fwiw, I heard my kids talking today ( 18,30) about TG/CDers.my 30 yr old says he is ok with us as long as effort is put into it to really look female.He says those that halfway switch back and forth weird him out.My 18 yr old agreed with this but her views are more liberal as she has some gay/tg freinds.I feel that as long as someone is not bothering anyone else ,to each their own,however when i dress up , i too want to be as passable as i can.Btw,my kids do not know.I feel that if we as a whole,do our best to look our best and not stand out,society as a whole will eventually come to accept us.


Christa

[sandra-leigh]

The facial hair that you have such a disdainful loathing for may be an inherently valued part of the personality of the men who are not keeping it solely to satisfy the expectations of others around them.

Or in the case of one of the members here whom I have met personally: keeping the beard was the price he paid for domestic peace. He could go out dressed, go to the monthly meetings, get his ears pierced, and various other things -- but the beard was the marker his wife concentrated on as her internal proof that he was still a man.

I sure would not have wanted to be the person that told him that he had to choose between going out in public or destroying his domestic peace.

Before times, my wife would refuse to kiss me if I had a day's stubble. Now that I'm TG full-time, she specifically asks me not to get my facial hair removed, and expresses disappointment when I shave off a 2 day growth, remarking that I look better with a beard. It's an important symbol to her. I don't find the facial hair attractive on myself, and I only go out with 2+ days if I don't have time to shave. On the other hand, even though I had 3 weeks alone a few weeks ago, I did not go off and get some laser treatments, as the matter is not important enough to me at this time to upset my wife about.

[MissMarcie]

but the beard was the marker his wife concentrated on as her internal proof that he was still a man.

I know I'll get slammed for stating my opinion, but if his wife requires a beard as proof that he's still a man, it must be a pretty shallow superficial relationship.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I know I'll get slammed for stating my opinion, but if his wife requires a beard as proof that he's still a man, it must be a pretty shallow superficial relationship.


No it isn't

And its no use talking about it.

[MissMarcie]

No it isn't

And its no use talking about it.

hehehe...yeah, right.