"The Lie" - Part 2

[LeaP]

I posted a long, long post a while back on the notion of "the lie," as hiding from one's SO is almost invariably termed. The majority of the responses favored the view that non-disclosure is always a lie, no matter the reason.

This thread variation concerns hiding from one's children. The topic occurred to me after seeing a number of posts where the arguments made for not disclosing to children raise essentially the same issues as those related to disclosure to SOs, including arguments those made by SOs themselves ... but the conclusions are entirely different! The themes that played out in the original post included:

. Honesty itself, personal implications for same
. Betrayal (e.g., of expectations, stated or not, if not representations)
. Sins of omission always being lies
. Allowing & enabling choice (this would be applicable to adult children in most cases)
. Importance & relevance to one's life
. Timing
. The concept of harm
. Knowledge of what a lie is
. Relationship basis
. Denial
. Suppression
. Protection
. Self-delusion
. Fear of consequences

So, to all - but especially those who maintain that non-disclosure to a SO is always a lie - is non-disclosure to children a lie or not? Justified or not? Betrayal or not?

Lea

[Lucy_Bella]

Honestly,

I think ( I know ) relationships between S.O.'s and Children are different by far, I can not even see how they can be compared..
I can divorce my wife but I can never divorce my children.. I also believe it would depend on when and what to share with them ..Age wise so they could understand better and how deep are you into the spectrum.

I would never tell my children ( who all young adults now) even if I was "outed" I would never dress in front of them .. I feel that would be selfish on my part ( just my belief ) .I say this because they have known me as dad the father figure with no hints of Lucy ever..I would consider myself as a " diverse person " and the very first one in my side of the family that I know of. I have raised my children to be very diverse'd as well ..

[Laura912]

Lea,
You will get answers on both sides of this. Instead of asking if this is a lie, maybe a better question is are you protecting them or you? You probably know the answers. Semantics will have a big role in everyone's response. One can get into the philosophical discussion of what is really a lie...a lot of people in Washington DC are really good at that! Politics not withstanding, what do you think is the answer to your question? You will get opinions but are they really what are important? Isn't the important thing how you and your family handle these issues? There is no "crime" committed here so the law's definition is not important. Then you are left with the societal definition and that will be all over the place. Is there a deeper question that you are chasing?
Best regards
Laura

[kimdl93]

I'd have to draw a stark distinction between disclosure to children (even adults) and disclosure to a spouse. As Lucy noted, a spouse has entered into an agreement - thinking that she knows the terms of that agreement. At the risk of sounding legalistic, its tantamount to fraud. And if a characteristic about a partner is known and accepted by the spouse, that doesn't mean that information necessarily should be shared with children.

A child has no such option (except in extreme cases) and as a parent, the first consideration is how will this information impact upon the child and his/her development. Once they are adults the question becomes, how will this impact upon the relationship.

[LeaP]

I think there's a raft of rationalization in non-disclosure to children. I'm not going to parse through scenarios as I did in the original post because I became a target in some instances, rather than the topic.

Lucy, my questions are these: Does one of your arguments reduce to because I lied, I'm justified in continuing to lie? Also, isn't the fact that your relationship to your children permanent (unlike, potentially your SO) MORE of a reason to disclose? Isn't the fact that their view of you is based on a significant omission - a misrepresentation - relevant to the honesty of your relationship with them?

Laura: What do you think of the notion that the same person who is doing the protecting is the person they are being protected from? Deeper question? No, no hidden agenda - just a fascination with how differently the rationalizations about lying run.


I'd have to draw a stark distinction between disclosure to children (even adults) and disclosure to a spouse.

Kim: I wonder how many children wind up agreeing with that when daddy dies and they're going through the closet, or have to deal with any number of accidental outings (of which the forum is full)? Also, I wonder about the comment on development. Does it presume that something is necessarily damaging (if not wrong) with TG behavior or identity? I know you didn't intend that, of course, but isn't there an implicit assumption?

Lea

[Laura912]

Some caution in this reply. For 39 years I cared for GG's. There is a sensitivity in those women that contributes in part to protecting those things that they hold dear. Some of that sensitivity is found in this group and thus contributes to the need to protect. Hence, we try to protect others from ourselves. Not all is driven by the need to protect but by fear as well. Whew! My brain hurts....
Laura

[Lucy_Bella]

I think there's a raft of rationalization in non-disclosure to children. I'm not going to parse through scenarios as I did in the original post because I became a target in some instances, rather than the topic.

Lucy, my questions are these: Does one of your arguments reduce to because I lied, I'm justified in continuing to lie? Also, isn't the fact that your relationship to your children permanent (unlike, potentially your SO) MORE of a reason to disclose? Isn't the fact that their view of you is based on a significant omission - a misrepresentation - relevant to the honesty of your relationship with them?

Lea, I guess to answer that question... Why be in the closet? Why not stop at the Spouse, children , grand children , aunt,uncles, cousins and the world...Wouldn't that be lying too? I would equate the " need to know" with the spouse ! But others have no need to know..Unless you want the world to know ( like those who feel they were born in the wrong body ) I am happy as my male self and my dressing is in part a fetish ( since I was 3 years old )....I didn't tell the kids everytime I made love to their mother and in a sense by not doing that it could as well be lying to them ..

[Lorileah]

Fascinating. We lie to our children from the outset. We make things up that we later have to recant or explain. Most of these are just fun little things that really have no impact on the development of the child in general (Santa, Tooth Fairy, Any one can grow up to be president). Some things we inadvertently set up that may impact the children. Things like the vaccine won't hurt (it does), boys don't cry (they do), girls are fragile (only if we let them believe that), love is forever (ok then no divorce) and somehow when boys wear dresses their manhood shrinks in some manner (which explains a lot about me). We allow society to direct things we let our children know or see. Yet we allow them to see things like war and hatred and have no problem allowing that. What it comes down to is how we decide to raise our children. Most is a conscious logical decision. Others are more unconscious. One would hope we would raise our children to be tolerant and accepting of others. Yet we do pass on prejudices openly or subtly. When you believe that what you are is not normal or is wrong you pass that on to your children and you live with that decision. Granted many times we do this to fit into a concept of society. Thus when you keep it from your 5 year old because they may say something to their friend who will eventually get back to your neighbor, it is understandable in order to keep peace.

When you lie or hide from your adolescent , you can justify it in your mind as not making an already difficult time worse. Yet this is exactly when they need to understand that things are not all black and white and cut and dried. Understandable when young people are spreading their wings and pressing barriers themselves. Right or wrong?

Young adults. Now here is where I believe all the decisions and teaching you did while they were growing up come home to roost. You have had the opportunity for 15-20 years to teach them to be open, honest, confident, nonjudgemental and caring people. If you did that then opening up to them should not be a huge issue. If somehow the seeds were planted that cross dressing is somehow perverted, sinful or just wrong, then it will be more difficult. Sins of the fathers so to speak.

So in essence I believe that withholding certain information at early periods may be necessary until the child has a better understanding, but if you plant seeds that will allow the child to have a good perception later, they will be better children.

Now I have to put in a caveat here. You all state that you have to love your children ( I never had any so I will take that as true because I believe it should be0 and then you state that you are worried that your children won't love you if you come out. It seems that you have two standards or expectations. Should not the children hold the same love for the parents that the parents hold for them? It seems wrong to me. It is also the same thing I say about your spouse. Why do you deprive them the right to make the decision themselves when they are theoretically grown and mature enough to do so? Some asked who you are protecting and I think that is a good question. My most important point here is that you have the ability to teach your children early one to be "good" people. If you do that then when (if) you decide to tell them, they will make the right choice, right? And that decision should be to still love their father and to accept him as he is. But I still believe in fairy tales.

[Katrina Black]

Wait a minute let me get this straight .. their is no Santa ? what the heck ...next you'll tell me theirs no such thing as men in girls clothes

[KellyJameson]

A child needs to be protected sometimes from themselves and at other times from others. Clearly the world is a dangerous place and violence is used regularly against those who are "different" with the justification that they pose a threat to an individual, group or the common good. perhaps they do not have the right skin color, worship the correct God, speak the common language or a myriad of other reasons based on behaviors and or traits.

Knowledge is a form of power and in a childs hands could have unintentional consequences so it is the responsibility of adults to evaluate when the child is ready for knowledge as well as preparing the child in its use. This is one of the many burdens a loving parent will carry because mistakes will be made but the alternative is far worse.

Deception in and of itself is not moral or immoral, it is the intention, the motive force behind the action that determines whether it is a "good" or a "bad" and each circumstance must be evaluated on its own merits, life is not black or white but grey.

Often love is married to fear and we seek to protect others from a need to protect ourselves because we fear the suffering that we would experience if those we love are harmed. Pure altruism is an impossibility because we are always a part of the equation so there always must be an element of self interest even when it appears contrary to what others would think is in our interest or when our interests are hidden from view. Finding balance between all the threads of self interest that make up our lives is learning about and expressing love but before you can love completely you must become comfortable with fear. Love helps us transcend fear by forcing us to confront it.

[LeaP]

Some caution in this reply. For 39 years I cared for GG's. There is a sensitivity in those women that contributes in part to protecting those things that they hold dear. Some of that sensitivity is found in this group and thus contributes to the need to protect. Hence, we try to protect others from ourselves. Not all is driven by the need to protect but by fear as well. Whew! My brain hurts....
Laura

Laura, while I would VERY much like to respond to your comment vis-a-vis GGs, that's actually another topic. As it relates to children, however, you cannot rationally maintain that you need to protect them from something unless you think it is harmful. So tell me, what's wrong with TG behavior or identity?


Lea, I guess to answer that question... Why be in the closet? Why not stop at the Spouse, children , grand children , aunt,uncles, cousins and the world...Wouldn't that be lying too? I would equate the " need to know" with the spouse ! But others have no need to know..Unless you want the world to know ( like those who feel they were born in the wrong body ) I am happy as my male self and my dressing is in part a fetish ( since I was 3 years old )....I didn't tell the kids everytime I made love to their mother and in a sense by not doing that it could as well be lying to them ..

I get the need to know aspect. I framed the SO thread relevance as a question of potential impact (calling it a stipulation in the opening post). That is, if one can reasonably believe that disclosure might materially affect the relationship, the disclosure is relevant. I believe the same applies to children. I'm not saying what I think the right answer is, but I do think that disclosure or non-disclosure is clearly relevant to the relationship. You must also, else would not believe that protecting them from disclosure would be meaningful.

Lea

[Lucy_Bella]

I get the need to know aspect. I framed the SO thread relevance as a question of potential impact (calling it a stipulation in the opening post). That is, if one can reasonably believe that disclosure might materially affect the relationship, the disclosure is relevant. I believe the same applies to children. I'm not saying what I think the right answer is, but I do think that disclosure or non-disclosure is clearly relevant to the relationship. You must also, else would not believe that protecting them from disclosure would be meaningful.

Lea
Lea, I really do get what you are saying ,trust me. The thing about this type of "Thread" is everyone here falls into the "Gender Spectrum" differently.. Now, I am not in any way asking you to define this type of thread to any or all but the answers you will get will not be the same.. I am very deep in the closet and believe strongly that my next wife or girlfriend should be told of my "Habit" ..But that's me, we have to compete for S.O.'s ,for friends but not family. So growing up with my "Family" sent me the message that my "Habit" was not accepted.. Re-guard less of how the world is today the damage has already been done, I got the message..

Now in saying that, my spectrum is at " not wanting to become full time" that's a open and honest answer.. Now if my spectrum took me to where I felt that I couldn't go on with my life unless I was to live full time then , the answer to your Thread would be yes.. I would for sure tell my children because I would be living my life as a lie .. Other than that I am just telling my future S.O. about my dirty little habit..

[suchacutie]

I am not married to my children. The relationship between spouses is unique and complete. A relationship with a child is a very different animal. As I just said in another thread, there are many aspects of my life that I don't share with children. It's simply none of their business. My transgenderism is in that category.

[jillleanne]

If you put a bowl of candy on the coffee table every single day from the time a child is born, the child will grow up with the idea that candy is nothing special. I have a son that cares nothing about candyfor that very reason. If one smokes pot in front of their children every day like it is simply a way of life for that person, the children will simply see it as that persons way of life, not theirs. I have a clieent that is that person with 4 daughters in their teens; none of them smoke pot or take any drugs of any kind. If a father dresses en femme from the time the child is born, the child will accept it as normal for the father and think nothing of it growing up. The child will not have the same desires unless that child is gender enhanced. It just takes a brave adult to come to terms with who they are. Some can, some can't.

[LeaP]

Fascinating. We lie to our children from the outset. We make things up that we later have to recant or explain. Most of these are just fun little things that really have no impact on the development of the child in general (Santa, Tooth Fairy, Any one can grow up to be president). Some things we inadvertently set up that may impact the children. Things like the vaccine won't hurt (it does), boys don't cry (they do), girls are fragile (only if we let them believe that), love is forever (ok then no divorce) and somehow when boys wear dresses their manhood shrinks in some manner (which explains a lot about me). We allow society to direct things we let our children know or see. Yet we allow them to see things like war and hatred and have no problem allowing that. What it comes down to is how we decide to raise our children. Most is a conscious logical decision. Others are more unconscious. One would hope we would raise our children to be tolerant and accepting of others. Yet we do pass on prejudices openly or subtly. When you believe that what you are is not normal or is wrong you pass that on to your children and you live with that decision. Granted many times we do this to fit into a concept of society. Thus when you keep it from your 5 year old because they may say something to their friend who will eventually get back to your neighbor, it is understandable in order to keep peace.

When you lie or hide from your adolescent , you can justify it in your mind as not making an already difficult time worse. Yet this is exactly when they need to understand that things are not all black and white and cut and dried. Understandable when young people are spreading their wings and pressing barriers themselves. Right or wrong?

Young adults. Now here is where I believe all the decisions and teaching you did while they were growing up come home to roost. You have had the opportunity for 15-20 years to teach them to be open, honest, confident, nonjudgemental and caring people. If you did that then opening up to them should not be a huge issue. If somehow the seeds were planted that cross dressing is somehow perverted, sinful or just wrong, then it will be more difficult. Sins of the fathers so to speak.

So in essence I believe that withholding certain information at early periods may be necessary until the child has a better understanding, but if you plant seeds that will allow the child to have a good perception later, they will be better children.

Now I have to put in a caveat here. You all state that you have to love your children ( I never had any so I will take that as true because I believe it should be0 and then you state that you are worried that your children won't love you if you come out. It seems that you have two standards or expectations. Should not the children hold the same love for the parents that the parents hold for them? It seems wrong to me. It is also the same thing I say about your spouse. Why do you deprive them the right to make the decision themselves when they are theoretically grown and mature enough to do so? Some asked who you are protecting and I think that is a good question. My most important point here is that you have the ability to teach your children early one to be "good" people. If you do that then when (if) you decide to tell them, they will make the right choice, right? And that decision should be to still love their father and to accept him as he is. But I still believe in fairy tales.

Lorileah, I had such trouble cherrypicking from your post that I've quoted the entire thing. You acknowledge that lies told to children are just that, but are justified for a variety of reasons. You touch on psychological and emotional readiness, maturity, and teaching by storytelling. You express caution concerning prejudice. You acknowledge nuance and grey areas. I'm particularly thankful you responded as you took a a more black and white position in the SO lying thread, and I appreciate your willingness to engage again thoughfully on the same topic with a different twist.

You didn't speak directly to the topic of hiding TG behavior and identity from children, however. Since you touch on teaching and storytelling, for example, might you advocate telling stories about this, perhaps in lieu of being out at home? Do you see a difference between being out from the children's birth vs. later in life? And, since you touch on protection, like others, do you see something in TG behavior or identity from which children need protection?


A child needs to be protected sometimes from themselves and at other times from others. Clearly the world is a dangerous place and violence is used regularly against those who are "different" with the justification that they pose a threat to an individual, group or the common good. perhaps they do not have the right skin color, worship the correct God, speak the common language or a myriad of other reasons based on behaviors and or traits.

Knowledge is a form of power and in a childs hands could have unintentional consequences so it is the responsibility of adults to evaluate when the child is ready for knowledge as well as preparing the child in its use. This is one of the many burdens a loving parent will carry because mistakes will be made but the alternative is far worse.

Deception in and of itself is not moral or immoral, it is the intention, the motive force behind the action that determines whether it is a "good" or a "bad" and each circumstance must be evaluated on its own merits, life is not black or white but grey.

Often love is married to fear and we seek to protect others from a need to protect ourselves because we fear the suffering that we would experience if those we love are harmed. Pure altruism is an impossibility because we are always a part of the equation so there always must be an element of self interest even when it appears contrary to what others would think is in our interest or when our interests are hidden from view. Finding balance between all the threads of self interest that make up our lives is learning about and expressing love but before you can love completely you must become comfortable with fear. Love helps us transcend fear by forcing us to confront it.

Kelly, I love the philosophical angle. You stress nuance but hint strongly, several times, at negatives: passing along prejudice (skin color, religion, etc.), mistakes, and fear and self-interest. You also don't speak directly to the topic. Children eventually - sometimes a lot sooner than we think or like - encounter reality contrary to what we tell (or leave out). Is a child better prepared for (all re: trans people) hateful comments, news, TV & movie representations, and real-life encounters by a parent hiding their TG behavior or identity, or by revealing it and living it?


Lea, I really do get what you are saying ,trust me. The thing about this type of "Thread" is everyone here falls into the "Gender Spectrum" differently.. Now, I am not in any way asking you to define this type of thread to any or all but the answers you will get will not be the same.. I am very deep in the closet and believe strongly that my next wife or girlfriend should be told of my "Habit" ..But that's me, we have to compete for S.O.'s ,for friends but not family. So growing up with my "Family" sent me the message that my "Habit" was not accepted.. Re-guard less of how the world is today the damage has already been done, I got the message..

Now in saying that, my spectrum is at " not wanting to become full time" that's a open and honest answer.. Now if my spectrum took me to where I felt that I couldn't go on with my life unless I was to live full time then , the answer to your Thread would be yes.. I would for sure tell my children because I would be living my life as a lie .. Other than that I am just telling my future S.O. about my dirty little habit..

This is another theme that came up in the SO thread. I.e., that minor or trivial behaviors (I don't mean to misrepresent this, merely to introduce a quantitative description) fall below a disclosure need threshhold. My response is the same, however - something that is lifelong, or essential, or repeated, or fundamental, regardless of the fact that you minimize it in some ways, seems very hard to justify away in this manner. I find your comment that going full-time would be your threshhold, though - mostly because it removes choice from the equation.


I am not married to my children. The relationship between spouses is unique and complete. A relationship with a child is a very different animal. As I just said in another thread, there are many aspects of my life that I don't share with children. It's simply none of their business. My transgenderism is in that category.

Same questions as for others: if disclosure could possibly change their view of you, or your relationship with you, their very concept of what you ARE, how can it not be relevant to them? And if they find out anyway? Would they think you lied to them, hid from them, deceived them?


If you put a bowl of candy on the coffee table every single day from the time a child is born, the child will grow up with the idea that candy is nothing special. I have a son that cares nothing about candyfor that very reason. If one smokes pot in front of their children every day like it is simply a way of life for that person, the children will simply see it as that persons way of life, not theirs. I have a clieent that is that person with 4 daughters in their teens; none of them smoke pot or take any drugs of any kind. If a father dresses en femme from the time the child is born, the child will accept it as normal for the father and think nothing of it growing up. The child will not have the same desires unless that child is gender enhanced. It just takes a brave adult to come to terms with who they are. Some can, some can't.

Thanks - straight-up answer focused on the adult motivation aspect.

Lea

[Foxglove]

Hello, Lea! This is how I see it. We all know lots of people, and we have different levels of intimacy with them. There are things I would tell an SO that I certainly wouldn't tell a casual acquaintance. Some things are personal, and you keep them for people that you trust. When I refrain from telling a casual acquaintance something very personal to me, I don't regard that as a lie by omission. I'm under no obligation to tell everybody in the world everything about me.

As regards CDing, I think most people (myself included) regard an SO as having a right to know. But not everybody has this right to know. I certainly don't think casual acquaintances do. The question vis-a-vis our children, as I see it, is, Do they have a right to know?

I'm not sure they do. My son is 26, and I don't believe that I have a right to know every detail of his life, e.g., what he gets up to with his buddies or his relations with GF's. He's a person in his own right, and he has the right to decide what he will share with others. That includes me. I'm his dad, and the two of us are very close and have very good relations, but I believe that he has the right to decide what he wants me to know about his life and what he doesn't. If I demanded the right to know every last little detail of his life, I think that would be an intrusion on his personal rights.

So, turn it around: does he have a right to know every last little detail of my life? I don't really think he does. If someone disagrees with me, I'd really want them to give me reasons as to why they think he does. Other people on this thread have asserted that our relationships with our children are different from those with SO's, and I would agree with that. I think there's a difference of intimacy here.

This thread is very timely for me, because I have been considering whether I should tell my son. I haven't yet thought of a good reason to tell him, apart from the fact that I don't like keeping secrets from people that I truly love.

But there are reasons not to tell. E.g., we have a very good relationship, as I said. We're very close. If I tell, what is that going to do to our relationship? Would he be cool with it? Or would he find it so disappointing that it affected our relationship very negatively?

I need to think about this very carefully. I think it is valid to worry about the negative impact such a revelation could have. I wonder, too, if he really would want to know or if he would prefer it if I kept it to myself. No way to know that without telling him, is there? But if I have a secret I don't want all and sundry to know, by revealing it to him, that would mean that he would have a secret that he wouldn't want all and sundry to know. My transgenderism is a burden to me. Would it be right to make it a burden to him? I think it quite likely that it would be one for him.

Refraining from telling someone about certain things in your life doesn't necessarily imply that there's something wrong with those things. I never gave my family any details about my sexual relations with my wife, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having sexual relations with one's wife. Not telling someone about your CDing habits doesn't imply there's something wrong with CDing in itself. The problem is that a lot of people think that there is. That makes it valid to keep quiet about it if you think it's in your best interests to do so.

Best wishes, Annabelle.

[KellyJameson]

Hi Lea. Here was your question..

"Is a child better prepared for (all re: trans people) hateful comments, news, TV & movie representations, and real-life encounters by a parent hiding their TG behavior or identity, or by revealing it and living it?"

In general I try to avoid lying to anybody but particularly children because it is more difficult for their minds to recover from the trauma of a lie ( the confusion of holding contradictory beliefs simultanously ) and I think one of the greatest gifts a parent can give a child is critical thinking skills to assist in escaping the mind being trapped in lies which I believe is the precursor to many forms of mental illness.

Before I would give a child knowledge about adult sex I would allow the child to witness the act in nature as an act of reproduction building a foundation of knowledege that allows for the learning of greater complexity so the child as an adult understands that sex between adults sometimes has nothing to do with sex.

Before I would give a child religion I would talk about why there is religion and all the aspects of belief and non belief and why violence is often an aspect of its expression because understanding the violence is the first step toward understanding the whole.

Crossdressing lives between two extremes, a fetish for some and a gender identity for others and often in one body over the course of their lives. For me it is one of the most psychologically complex behaviors I can think of because it touches almost every question of what makes us who we are and exceeds in difficulty of understanding in my opinion that of sex and religion.

My first and last goal would be for the long term protection of the child even if that meant short term pain for the child. If I was thinking about changing their image of me first I would need to know that they had absolute trust in my love for them because they have experienced my protecting them from me as well as the world in general and that they know in the core of their being that I value them not only as my children but as autonomous human beings, they would know this on a feeling level (subconscious) as an outgrowth of the past relationship.

If I had this kind of relationship with them than I would allow them to be part of the process of "becoming" but I would use caution in how I dressed, recognizing the power of clothing to create perceptions and I would watch carefully for discomfort or embarrassment on their part. The child would be the barometer and conductor of my behavior when in their company but I would also watch for the ever present lust for power in the child so as not to fall victim to any tyrannical and manipulative inclinations that all child may have, (as adults may have). Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and loving someone is giving them power so we must set limits (boundaries) or invite abuse.

I do not automatically apply preset rules but only know how to be in the moment so I look for guidance from what each moment brings and no two people are alike including children. I test others within the dictates of love ( protection) and than act according to what they tell me, most of what they communicate is below their conscious awareness so by knowing them I am able to better protect them from me and offer what value to the relationship that I may.

[Lucy_Bella]

This is another theme that came up in the SO thread. I.e., that minor or trivial behaviors (I don't mean to misrepresent this, merely to introduce a quantitative description) fall below a disclosure need threshhold. My response is the same, however - something that is lifelong, or essential, or repeated, or fundamental, regardless of the fact that you minimize it in some ways, seems very hard to justify away in this manner. I find your comment that going full-time would be your threshhold, though - mostly because it removes choice from the equation.

Lea,
The equation is getting close , I have raised my children like I have said, to be very diverse'd .....That's not an issue at all... The point was missed because there is no threshold for me and my habit..Plain and simple there is NONE.. I could explain a gambling problem and come clean, I could explain a drinking problem and come clean ( you get my point )..But I can not explain something that has no explanation ,,..

It would ( for me ) be simple to come out and tell my kids I am Gay ( but I am not ) because it has an explanation ..It would be easier for me to tell my kids I want to and have had the urge all my life to live my life fully as a woman ( but I don't ) It would be easier to understand. But for the life of me I can not find ANYWHERE,..... An explanation for, why it is that I have a over whelming, nagging urge that I sometimes get to emulate a female appearance.. That is the equation ..

[Lorileah]

I'm particularly thankful you responded as you took a a more black and white position in the SO lying thread, and I appreciate your willingness to engage again thoughfully on the same topic with a different twist.

Because it is more black and white when it comes to SO's. They are mature and they deserve the right to decide whereas, children need nurture and direction.


You didn't speak directly to the topic of hiding TG behavior and identity from children, however. Since you touch on teaching and storytelling, for example, might you advocate telling stories about this, perhaps in lieu of being out at home?
Personally, I would advocate being who you are from the beginning. Children won't think anything about "daddy" in a dress until someone tells them it is "wrong" (Thank you grandma). So if you dress from the beginning they won't need a story. But then there are so many stories we relate to our children that has to teach them in a manner they can stay focused on. Most are of no use now (when was the last time you saw a wolf in your neighborhood?). The Emperor's new clothes? (Honesty) Beauty and the Beast? (love transcends looks) Cinderella? (That you can meet prince charming someday). It would not be hard to make a story about a little boy who was really a girl inside. Or how clothing is just a covering for what is hidden in your heart. All this will play into the teaching your child to accept and learn from differences. That maybe they can in turn educate the ignorant that surround them on a daily basis. But that is me, I would start early (it is easier to instill good qualities than it is to change bad ones...works on puppies, works on children). There is a window in development where you have a real strong influence. I was lucky that when I was in that window my parents were fairly open (nudity was bad though so that is still a hang up for me...).

do you see something in TG behavior or identity from which children need protection? Not me personally but I know how e have been portrayed in real life. The media has made us clowns and perverts. Watch the movies (and that new show on ABC). You don't see a news article about a cross dresser who ran into a burning building and saved 4 children. But you do see the articles about how they hang out at the park which we all know is a gross exaggeration. Scandal sells. It also does not help that fetishists get the greater bulk of notice especially on the internet. It is no different than what was told to whites 70 years ago. Just the idea that one person from a group may be bad is enough to label the rest of the group.

Children are not born to fear crossdressers. This is something that is taught. It does not help that the teachers are the same people who are the dressers and believe that they themselves are strange or bad. By hiding such behavior you make it fascinating and nebulous. I believe that the taboos in our society make more mental problems later for our children. Look around. Why are women's breasts so interesting? We all get to see them when we are born...and yet by making them "dirty" so many men (and some women) make them overtly sexual. Nudity is the same way. We all tried to see the girl's panties when we were in grade school. Why? They are just pieces of cloth. Sexual relations between parents...normal yet we make a big deal about it and then when kids get to an age they find it a taboo that is more exciting to break. Right now a few people just read that and felt strange thinking their parents actually did it. There are things that are required to maintain society but many other things are to maintain a status quo. Many here start with the clothing as a fetish, because it is a taboo. How much faster could they advance to where many of us are in later years, where the clothes are not a sexual thing but a part of who we are?

The protection I believe is mostly for the child to not feel different. Because we demonize it, the child is at risk of peer pressure. Bullies will use anything. But if the child is taught that there is nothing wrong early on they can handle it. We should all learn there is no evil in the clothing. It is just clothing. Whatever you magic you put on it is from your mind, nothing else.

[LeaP]

Lea,
The equation is getting close , I have raised my children like I have said, to be very diverse'd .....That's not an issue at all... The point was missed because there is no threshold for me and my habit..Plain and simple there is NONE.. I could explain a gambling problem and come clean, I could explain a drinking problem and come clean ( you get my point )..But I can not explain something that has no explanation ,,..

It would ( for me ) be simple to come out and tell my kids I am Gay ( but I am not ) because it has an explanation ..It would be easier for me to tell my kids I want to and have had the urge all my life to live my life fully as a woman ( but I don't ) It would be easier to understand. But for the life of me I can not find ANYWHERE,..... An explanation for, why it is that I have a over whelming, nagging urge that I sometimes get to emulate a female appearance.. That is the equation ..

We cannot explain many things in life that we tell our children. Conversely, our children ask us about many things we cannot explain. Not knowing is part of life.

I can think of any number of reasons why disclosing would be good or useful. Consider the possibility that a child might a CDer or TG, for example. Like most things I tell my children, though, my intentions often have little to do with what comes of what I tell them.


Hello, Lea! This is how I see it. We all know lots of people, and we have different levels of intimacy with them. There are things I would tell an SO that I certainly wouldn't tell a casual acquaintance. Some things are personal, and you keep them for people that you trust. When I refrain from telling a casual acquaintance something very personal to me, I don't regard that as a lie by omission. I'm under no obligation to tell everybody in the world everything about me.

As regards CDing, I think most people (myself included) regard an SO as having a right to know. But not everybody has this right to know. I certainly don't think casual acquaintances do. The question vis-a-vis our children, as I see it, is, Do they have a right to know?

Instead of answering, let me pose a different question - do you think there is a threshhold of behavior or identity where they have a right to know?

Lea

[Foxglove]

Instead of answering, let me pose a different question - do you think there is a threshhold of behavior or identity where they have a right to know?

Lea

Hello, Lea! I've been thinking about your question, and I think there is a threshold--but I believe it's the same one that everyone else besides your SO has.

E.g., suppose my son and I are living in different cities quite some distance apart, so that maybe we don't see each other all too often. I decide to come out of the closet (in which I'm currently deeply buried). I'm dressing constantly at home, and often go out in public dressed. Now he's planning to come visit me for a few days. Does he have the right to know?

I think he does. (If I'm dressing while he's there, he's certainly going to know in any case.) But he has the right to know in advance, because if I'm wanting to go out dressed, he has the right to decide whether or not he wants to be with me. Perhaps a CDing dad would be too embarrassing for him. Or, it's possible that people we run into would know I'm a CDer, even if I weren't dressed at the moment, and so that could affect him.

But this would be the same for anyone who knows me, e.g, friends and acquaintances. Do they want to hang out with a CDer? It's up to them to decide. Basically, I think that anyone who's going to be affected in some way by my CDing has a right to know. For me, that's the criterion. Right now, my CDing affects no one, so I tell no one.

This right to know can include lots of things, not just CDing. To take one fairly wild example, I once knew a young woman who was such an awful driver that you really were uncomfortable being in a car she was driving. She could barely even stay in her lane in traffic. I think she was a serious smash-up just waiting to happen. How she got a licence I don't know. But I think it would have been nice of her to warn people before they got in a car with her, because she was seriously putting lots of people at risk when she drove.

I've talked about "levels of intimacy" in relationships, and for me that's still a key here. For me, what makes a relationship with an SO different from any other sort of relationship (including those with your children) is that she's the one you sleep with, she's the one you make love to, she's the one you get naked with. That's what makes it a unique sort of relationship. And that's why an SO has a right to know a lot of things nobody else does. A CDers' habits will affect her life--but it's not just that that SO's complain about when a CDing husband comes out to them. They talk about the feeling of being let down, betrayed, deceived. That's because they feel they have a right to know the most intimate of details. And I agree with them. It's their special relationship that gives them that right.

A child or a friend will have a right to know when something is going to affect them. But they don't have the same right as an SO. My opinion on this, as I indicated earlier, is based on my own feelings towards my son's life. There are things in his life, e.g., his dealings with his buddies and GF's, that I don't think I have a right to know. It's up to him to decide what he wants to tell me. This for me is enough to convince me of the very significant difference between a relationship with an SO and a relationship with a child.

So those are my feelings in the matter. If you disagree, you're welcome to argue with me, because I don't think my opinion here is carved in stone. You could perhaps change my mind. My criteria here are the level of intimacy of a relationship and the impact that your habits might have on other people. They're two different things, and so for me they imply that different people's right to know will be different.

[Lucy_Bella]

We cannot explain many things in life that we tell our children. Conversely, our children ask us about many things we cannot explain. Not knowing is part of life.

I can think of any number of reasons why disclosing would be good or useful. Consider the possibility that a child might a CDer or TG, for example. Like most things I tell my children, though, my intentions often have little to do with what comes of what I tell them. Lea

Okay, I guess I will have to be blunt :) ... I don't tell my kids every detail of my sex life.. For me my " Transgenderisum" is in part, my "sex life" .. It is very private for me " my attraction to femininity" to where I have the urge or desire if you will, to emulate.. I do not want to live as a female ,, :)

[Rianna Humble]

As it relates to children, however, you cannot rationally maintain that you need to protect them from something unless you think it is harmful. So tell me, what's wrong with TG behavior or identity?

I can see the need to protect children from the reaction of others outside the family. There have been a number of examples in these forums since I became a member, some good some less so.

About 18 months ago or so, a member was discovered dressing by her 5 year old daughter. The daughter asked a number of questions and the member explained it to the daughter's satisfaction, but then counselled the child to be careful about mentioning this outside the home as "some people are not very nice if they think your mummy or daddy is different". That is a way of protecting the child from the potential fallout from having a CD parent. Others choose non-disclosure as an alternative means to the same end.

More recently there was the case of a member's daughter who had her invitation to a sleepover with a group of classmates cancelled because the mother of one of the classmates found out the member cross-dresses at home. Did the other parent's reaction make CD'ing harmful, or did it merely have a harmful effect on the child? Did the child not deserve to be protected from this fallout?