The Great Divide

[SandraAbsent]

There have been several discussions over the last month or so both in the transsexual forum and the mtf crossdresser's forum where the differences between factions of this community have been argued. Some have escalated to a flame war and some productive, but none that have really addressed the issue head on. So lets do exactly that, and maybe we can end a little bit of the arguing back and forth.

My intention of this post is for it to be a productive conversation, so that those not identified as transsexual, living full time, intersexed, post transition, or living stealth may have a better understanding of why this divide exists. I don't believe in my heart of hearts that it exists because myself or anyone else in a similar position isn't empathetic to others in a different position, but as much as we don't necessarily understand how you identify, I often feel that there is little understand how we feel. More importantly how significant the differences are. If at any point it develops into a flame war, I will personally encourage the thread locked.

I will start my own input by saying that I have no understanding of how someone who identifies as a transvestite, crossdresser, fetishist, or any other label feels or what motivates them. To the extent that sometimes when I read other threads here, it simply makes me shake my head. I do not understand it at all. The only time in my life that I identified as a crossdresser is when I refused to acknowledge myself as to what I really am. Further more I can by no uncertain circumstances identify with someone who is intersexed, because I have no idea what torture that would be in life. Finally, I cannot understand what life may be like for someone who has completed medical transition and now lives their life day in and day out never looking back. Why? Because I am none of the above and the only thing that I can 100% identify with is my own story. Makes sense doesn't it?

Now I have been pretty animated here about how I do not agree with the whole concept of the Transgender umbrella. Every faction of this umbrella has different needs and concerns. Admittedly, I am biased towards the intersex and transsexual community, because I feel our needs demand a higher priority, as we live our lives every day dealing with some of the more pressing personal, medical, and legal issues. These issues have a direct impact on our lives.

When I read some of the threads here blasting the transsexual members of this community for not being understanding enough of others and visa versa it confuses me. Why the animosity? Is it so difficult to understand that our needs and concerns are different. Again I do not claim to understand your needs, but I do read and learn about them. However, why the insistence that we are all alike and fighting for the same things? How many on the other side read our posts and really try to understand where we are coming from? If you did, I am positive that you would quickly see how different we are. I think the frustration on the part of the transsexual members of the community is this lack of understanding, the same lack of understanding that we are claimed to have.

To those not identified as transsexual or intersexed, to those not transitioning for what ever reason, and to those who this is simply a fetish or hobby I ask some important questions as they relate directly my own experiences.

Have you ever had the experience of having to tell those closest to your heart something that you know with all certainty will hurt them. Not because you want them to know, but because they need to know?

Have you ever had your sister call you at 3am in tears over an anxiety attack caused by her fear of loosing her brother and how she will explain this to her children who love their uncle dearly?

Have you lived through a thanksgiving or a christmas where your father will not talk to you?

Leading up to my decision to live full time ahead of pursuing anything medical was very painful emotionally for me and sourced in other medical conditions prohibiting doing any thing medically to transition. The result being a loss of income as my fear of it left my unable to commit to my 100% commission job at the level I needed to. Have you experienced loss of income over the torment of your position?

After making the decision to live full time, I mustered up the courage to come out at work. This involved meeting after meeting that I had to endure. Standing up in front of my company and peers to bare my soul. Then weeks upon weeks of having the same conversations with all of my clients. All the while with the fear that the likely hood of this translating to discrimination or further loss of income was very real and still is. Have you ever had to prepare for and endure an experience at this level?

For me its not about the right to use a bathroom or changing room. Or to dress a little girly at work. Or to tell my family because I want them to know. I had to tell my family, I had to tell my boss, and I had to tell my friends, because I had to live as a woman or I was dead. This is the key difference I see between myself and others falling under the umbrella. I am sure I am not alone in this.

Ok let's here your thoughts on this. Remember this was posted in the transsexual area for a reason. This post is for us to express our position in a positive and productive light.

Luv ya all!

[Jeninus]

Sandra, On behalf of TGs, I'll take a first respectful stab at this from the perspective of where we are classifying ourselves as TG, as opposed to TS.

When one reads the threads on "our" portion of the site, much of it seems frivolous: threads on ear piercing or colour of panties, shopping expeditions and the like. This might lead one to the conclusion that much or perhaps all of CDing is a hobby or fetish, especially as the great majority are happily heterosexual and either married or maintaining a long-term relationship with a woman. But maintaining that relationship once the condition is disclosed becomes a life-long balancing act, especially where minor children are involved.

In fact there may be just as much pressure on TGs because of the assumption that we either do want to transition, that we are queer or that we could stop if we only wanted to and weren't so selfish with our "hobby" (their connotation, not yours).

However, nearly all the TGs will certify that they have been cross-dressing and/or yearning to be female most of their lives. Further, many of the threads detail the anguish they experience as they are either discovered by a spouse/SO or they feel they must disclose themselves. There are serious discussions about the ethics of not disclosing to children. One common element is that being TG is a permanent part of our psychological makeup, one that we can suppress for periods of time, but never change.

Perhaps in comparing TG and TS, TG is a form of arrested development of TS. I think most of us honor and respect our TS sisters and understand the enormous loss many of you have experienced as a result of nature's mistake. Please understand, at the same time, that many of us have also experienced great loss in our lives as a result of our condition.

Jen

[AllieSF]

I come from the TG/CD camp. I like that big umbrella lumping "all" of "us" together with our LGBT family. I personally have no problem if any specific part of the LGBT wants to separate itself, or even if the "T" part gets subdivided. My only concern is that any sub-division reduces the quantity of members in each part. I know that a small group of well organized and devoted people can create significant change for the better, or sometimes for the worse, for their specific cause. However, since most people here are in the closet in some way, mine is I have not shared my hobby with friends, family nor others who know me as a male, sub-dividing more reduces total numbers. When we add in, actually subtract from the total, the closeted or the ones that desire and sometimes need to go stealth for transitioning or transitioned TS's, this clearly leads me to believe that a small group like that will need a lot of Katesback"s "idiot activist trannies" to further the TS cause. Otherwise, I believe that the going alone approach for TS's will be even slower that it already is. So, on your one topic of separating TS's to a stand alone group, do what you want. But, there is a great advantage to being able to have more members to help others, the uneducated, to understand all "T" issues others to be able to come to terms with your specific TS needs.

Those needs are definitely different between groups in some instances, but in many areas they are very similar. I definitely will not use all the rights that you want, because they will not apply to me. Maybe you will not use all of available TS rights either. However, as the recent Tennessee proposed legislation to ban any T's from using the "wrong" restroom clearly shows, bathroom usage applies directly to all of us. Another comparison or example would be the same sex marriage debate. If you are and will always be single it may not be an issue for you. But it very well may be if you want to get married to a GG and you are a MtF TS. So, the gay rights drive for same sex marriage directly applies to you and you will directly benefit from the efforts of others in this area.

I do not like some of the comments made both ways about TS versus TG/CD. I believe that we both have a lot of serious issues, some similar and some different, and that neither is better than the other, and never will be. You say you do not understand us. I find that hard to believe when we TG/CD's are always trying to explain it from the silly to the more serious. I can say that I personally understand a lot about your TS situation, even if I do not and probably never will live it nor know the full depth of it. Hell, I am not blind, deaf and dumb, and I doubt that you are either. I listen, ask questions and read a lot. So, there is a lot of information out there to help me and others to understand more about you, me and others, no matter who or what they are. There is also a lot of information right here on this site to help you better understand us. I for one do truly believe that TS's have the harder road to take and suffer as a whole, or maybe better said, as a larger percentage of your total TS population, more than TG/CD's do. But, and that is a big but for me, it does not mean that some or maybe many TG/CD's do not suffer a lot and maybe even to the same level as some TS's do. Some of your questions above to the TG/CD have almost the same answers as they do if made to a TS. The one's that don't, don't. So what is the big deal? They only help to define some of the differences between us. Actually, after re-reading some of your questions, they sometimes will not even apply to some TS's. A lot really depends on one's personal situation, personality and character. What may be a great issue for one can be a little road bump for another.

I like the idea of this thread, because I have read many times the "better than you" comments and attitudes. I recognize that these types of comments come from normally a few people on both sides and "hopefully" do not represent the opinions and attitudes of the majority. That would be very sad. One way or another we are all in this together and should try to support everyone in their efforts to be themselves.

[suzy1]

Allie has just said “we are all in this together and should try to support everyone.”
That sums it up for me.
I think the vast majority of members here have no interest in labels or attacking other members.
There is no great divide. Just a few members that make it seem like it sometimes. And they know who they are! Its annoying and unnecessary.


SUZY

[SandraAbsent]

Actually, after re-reading some of your questions, they sometimes will not even apply to some TS's. A lot really depends on one's personal situation, personality and character. What may be a great issue for one can be a little road bump for another.

Just a reminder of my own words!

Why? Because I am none of the above and the only thing that I can 100% identify with is my own story. Makes sense doesn't it?

[kellycan27]

Someone should bury this poor dead horse... I feel like I am watching groundhog day..........again and again. I am different from you..you're different from me.... let's argue why now.

[Asako]

This is how I approach PEOPLE in general...because that's what we all are on the inside. PEOPLE.

When I read a post about a differing opinion than mine, I think about it. If it's an infuriating opinion, I usually walk away for a few minutes to cool off and THEN think about it. Then, I try to look at things from their perspective. If things are unclear, I ask questions to better understand someone's perspective. If it's something VERY personal, I add something like "If you don't mind, may I ask-" to show that I do have respect for their privacy. I.E. Like when I asked Julia about her views on some things so that I could understand the views she had posted in one of my threads. With some of those questions, I started to slowly better understand her as a person.

Now to explain why I take this approach so others may better understand me as a person.

I was raised to use my "manners". Funny word really but I digress. I was taught to be respectful and mindful of others around me. I was taught to think before I speak. One of the best things I was taught:to look at the same situation from someone's perspective. The best thing I was taught:how to think for myself. How to look at someone or something and ask myself questions about it. "Why is he/she that way? Why do they hold that view? Why do they act like that? What makes them do what they're doing? How can I ask these questions without offending them? CAN I even ask these things without offending them? If so, then HOW can I ask that question without offending them? If I do offend them, what can I say that would be an honest apology?". Just small sample of the rapid thoughts that go through my mind as I think about how to reply to people.

I slowly examine everyone and everything carefully through questions and deductions.


Now, notice how I never really stated "which side" I'm "on". That's because, to me, it shouldn't matter! We're a diverse group of people with just as diverse a set of experiences in life that we can all learn from IF WE JUST TAKE THE TIME TO UNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER. We just need to keep in mind that we're all people who have guarded our emotions on these subjects because we can easily be hurt since it's about a major part of who we are. Seeing a part of what we feel makes us "US" get bashed by another who "doesn't understand"...don't we get enough of that from the people around us in the real world?

P.S. This is not aimed at any one specific group/label type/type of person/etc. It's just to make those who read it honestly think about how they interact with others.

[stacycoral]

Allie has just said “we are all in this together and should try to support everyone.”
That sums it up for me.
I think the vast majority of members here have no interest in labels or attacking other members.
There is no great divide. Just a few members that make it seem like it sometimes. And they know how they are! Its annoying and unnecessary.


SUZY


Someone should bury this poor dead horse... I feel like I am watching groundhog day..........again and again. I am different from you..you're different from me.... let's argue why now.

These ladies have said it clear, i am a CD, and am very happy to have friend that are TS's and TG's, I enjoy getting to visit with these girls, and learn about them, and them about me, I think we alll need to get along as best as we can, and yes TS have a different life than me, but i still want to be able to call her my fiiend.

[kellycan27]

These ladies have said it clear, i am a CD, and am very happy to have friend that are TS's and TG's, I enjoy getting to visit with these girls, and learn about them, and them about me, I think we alll need to get along as best as we can, and yes TS have a different life than me, but i still want to be able to call her my fiiend.

That's awesome and there isn't anything wrong with that.. The OP states that she has seen a number of threads ( of this same nature) turn ugly, she knows that the subject is controversial, and she knows that emotions run high, but "her" intention is not to incite people. Although her intentions may have been pure she knew from the get go how these type threads usually end up, and she knew from the start that these type of thread more often than not cause a rift between members. Not even 10 replies and people are already saying what camp they fall into. I am in the cd/tg camp, I am in the TS camp. I am in the IS camp... and so it starts.

disclaimer

I am not saying that people are actually taking sides, (yet) but you know that someone will take it that way lol

[JulieK1980]

Allie has just said “we are all in this together and should try to support everyone.”
That sums it up for me.
I think the vast majority of members here have no interest in labels or attacking other members.
There is no great divide. Just a few members that make it seem like it sometimes. And they know how they are! Its annoying and unnecessary.


SUZY

This says it all. We are all people first and foremost, and regardless of WHAT we are, we all have our own trials and tribulations. It's worthless to argue who has it worse, or better, it's too subjective. The emotions run hard because every time this topic comes up, the flame wars begin, and eventually someone throws out words like "circus freak" or other insulting condescending words. For obvious reasons, people don't like to be called circus freaks. It hurts them, it attacks them at their very nature of who they are.

So I double the statement, "There is no great divide." Just a small group of people that lack empathy for those that are different than them. I emphasize, SMALL group of people.

[AllieSF]

Kelly, I think we can say that a vast majority of threads on this site are somewhat repetitive on the subject matter, and then some of those end up in serious discussions, and then some of those end up in sides and even arguments. And then there are the posts like yours that question why do we even need this thread or threads like this, if for those of us that have been here for a long time, we have seen them before and we know where they are probably going to end up. That being said, it is a topic that gets discussed and merits being discussed in a lot of different forms. It would be much better if we realized that we are actually all on the same side. Sometimes a perfectly innocent thread on a good topic that merits a serious discussion for those interested, gets sidetracked and then closed because somehow the "us" versus "them" confrontation comes up.

You mention falling into camps as being a reason that "it starts". I identified where I am in our LGBT spectrum to let others know where my experience and identity is. I see nothing wrong with giving someone an idea of where we may be coming from when writing in a forum. That does not mean I have already picked a side, nor that I agree with someone else's point of view. I always try to state when I agree with someone's opinion. My point of view is mine. I believe that other's points of view are theirs and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the larger group. So, these repetitive sometimes contentious threads give all of a chance to state or restate their beliefs, add additional information or just join in the fray and fun, and these threads can be a lot of fun, especially when we get tired of the pantie, city chain threads and others that seem to draw so much of our attention. Kate says it all the time that she is here for the entertainment value, which is as valid a reason as any.

I also agree with your analysis of how this thread was started. My antenna always go up when I read a thread begin that way. I know that we will have some entertainment before the end.

[sandra-leigh]

Admittedly, I am biased towards the intersex and transsexual community, because I feel our needs demand a higher priority, as we live our lives every day dealing with some of the more pressing personal, medical, and legal issues.

I am publicly TG, and I do not hide it, not even at work. This has indeed led to personal and medical problems, and I have been looking at the legal issues. The medical problems have not gone easy on me; for example my depression was severe enough that I had a difficult time going outside, even just 300 feet and back. And these days I am on HRT, with it's many complications, including that it is indirectly wrecking my back and neck (with the muscles getting tired so quickly, I am encountering difficult misalignment problems.)

For those of you who look at the point as some kind of litmus test: Yes, I did think about suicide, a lot more than once or twice. Fortunately I recognized that it wasn't that I wanted death but rather that I needed change.

The local trans clinic is running about 2 months behind on appointments due to demand being very much higher than expected. But if you or anyone else thinks that transsexuals should have "higher priority" to get in than I do because I am supposedly not dealing with those matters every day, you have another think coming. HRT sustains me at a level where I do not personally feel I need to think about surgery (I never said I was TS), but I need that HRT to keep me balanced. Or are you saying that if I could possibly "scrape through" without the HRT if I took a couple of years of medical leave, that I have a duty to live miserable because "real" transsexuals can't wait 1/2 hour longer because I've taken up an appointment slot? I do not put myself ahead of transsexuals; I get in line with them, taking my fair turn, and just ask that they don't try to pull any BS about being "higher priority" than me.

There have been posted here in this section statements that anyone who is not a proven TS should stop dressing completely (at least in public), lest the not-TS in some way damage the efforts of TS to be accepted. Such statements are tantamount to asking one oppressed group to give up their hopes for the next few generations because some other group has it worse. If I point out that, for example, nearly all Somalians have things much worse than nearly all of the TS on this forum, then would the TS here agree that their own struggles are "not as high a priority" as peace and economic justice in sub-Sahara Africa and so put those struggles aside? The fact that I myself do not eagerly await SRS does not mean that I can just "go back to male": I might not myself have the inner certainty that I am completely female, but my brain and body punish me when I do not live at least as far across the gender line as I do.

Speaking for myself, being TG is something I am driven to, not a hobby or pass-time at all -- but time and again the attitude expressed in this forum has been that if a person isn't a full TS then they just have a fetish. (These days I can't do anything sexual even if I try.)


Have you ever had the experience of having to tell those closest to your heart something that you know with all certainty will hurt them.

Yes.


Have you ever had your sister call you at 3am in tears over an anxiety attack caused by her fear of loosing her brother

No, I only have one sister, and she deals with trans folk at her work; she knew she wasn't losing me.


Have you lived through a thanksgiving or a christmas where your father will not talk to you?

36 or so of each. My father died when I was 13, and so will never talk to me again.


Have you experienced loss of income over the torment of your position?

I had my employees taken away from me. The position rules at my workplace make it impossible for someone at my level to be promoted unless the person supervises at least 6 employees, so the effect was to put an end to promotion possibilities no matter how good my work was. I was then "constructively dismissed" from that position -- a position that I was performing at quite high levels. I did manage a sideways move instead of being fired, but it is looking like a distinct possibility that I will be one of the first people let go in our reorganization.


Have you ever had to prepare for and endure an experience at this level?

Not yet. But I am going to have a difficult time with where-ever I end up next.


because I had to live as a woman or I was dead

I have to live as TG -- or drop out , and probably check myself in to the psych ward. But I read this forum and I am told that I'm just a pervert. :sad:

[Danni Bear]

this is how it begins. a cd or tg or ts gets offended by a remark. every one of us started as a cd. how sad it is that we forget so easily those beginnings. no matter who or how young you started or why, the simple fact remains that we all are different in our desires. can you honestly hold yourself above any other? I can't because I came from the same place.

My own story is different from most as I was born intersex and was medically altered to male as a baby, growing up that way. marrying as a male and fathering 7 children while living mainly as female during those years. suffering major emotional and psyholigical problems even with a understanding and ts wife.

I have been down the road that many are facing and traveling today. my wife and I have both transitioned to our true selves many years ago but still the issues that came up then and still do today have to be met.

so why do I reply to this? simple answer is that it is important for all of us to take a step back and remember our past and to consider our future. only as a whole can change be effected. only as a whole can any be really happy. to disparage any is to disparage all and leave all open to attack and discrimination. we of all groups should be together not apart and hurting each other.

maybe some will think this is a rather simplistic and naive view but it really isn't. it has taken me 64 years of hard and difficult life to come to the realization that noone is unimportant and that all are necessary.


Danni Bear

[Momarie]

My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

[Danni Bear]

My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

it can be fairly easy to differetiate the tv and and other performers from those who dress because of need. that need may come and go but is always in the background for those who cross the gender boundry in either direction. dressing to entertain is a completely different thing than dressing because your mind and emotions tell you that you have to to survive either emotionally or physically. that is the difference you can tell the uneducated public. we dress or change our bodies because we must to survive. that is all there is to it,

now back to your regular sponser

Danni

[Momarie]

it can be fairly easy to differetiate the tv and and other performers from those who dress because of need. that need may come and go but is always in the background for those who cross the gender boundry in either direction. dressing to entertain is a completely different thing than dressing because your mind and emotions tell you that you have to to survive either emotionally or physically. that is the difference you can tell the uneducated public. we dress or change our bodies because we must to survive. that is all there is to it,

now back to your regular sponser

Danni


I understand your absolute need to survive but what about the one's who are just barely surviving?

For them and for the public, it may not always be so easy to understand.

[Bree-asaurus]

My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

That's the problem. The general public doesn't see a difference. To them we are all fetishistic men that get off to wearing women's cloths...

[Kate T]

I thought the whole point was we all want to be members of the human race / species.

[AllieSF]

Momarie, In a perfect world differentiation as a reason why or what would not be necessary. Even in our real and imperfect world, do we really need to do that? I understand that some may see a street MtF working girl and may relate that to anyone who started out looking like a male (for MtF's). But, if one will base their opinion of a larger group on such a small sampling does their opinion really matter? I don't think that the majority of people will have negative reactions when encountering any one of us unless they have a negative experience. However, if it was just an observation or actually involved some type of interaction with one of us, I think that they would probably go away with maybe a questioning understanding of us, but not really a negative opinion. I do agree that the general public will not know the differences between all of us unless they read about it or get a chance to ask us questions. That is why I would love to see more of all us out there interfacing with the rest of the people. More contact leads to better understanding.

About being defensive, whether you were referring to me or not, I hopefully am not being defensive, but more in the line of trying to clarify my point of view in relation to the OP's original wording. I think that it would be good that the general public knows more about us and maybe even can understand the various differences among all of us. But, as said above, it would be great if they could just accept us as different and non-threatening and leave it at that.

Bree: I just saw your post. I disagree that they see it that way. Some may, but not all, and in my opinion not even most. I think that the majority just don't know what to think, maybe more confused and wondering why, than totally negative about this.

[DebbieL]

That's the problem. The general public doesn't see a difference. To them we are all fetishistic men that get off to wearing women's cloths...

Sad but true, and the irony is that the fetishists - those who dress solely for sexual gratification is the smallest group of all.

Sadly most men who are not TG in one form or another can't imagine why anyone would want to give up the status, power, and privileges they experience in being men, especially after spending years trying to prove their manhood and masculinity to other men and to women.

Most women are also confused, they have worked hard to find their group, their niche, their clique, and do what is necessary to fit in with that group, and feel threatened when they experience a male who wants to be "one of the girls" - in feminine form.

It's natural for an MTF who has gone through all of the ordeals necessary to make all of the needed changes - and who has ALSO worked hard to become one of the girls, to find her own niche, and find her own group - to be wary of others on the transgender scale who have not made such sacrifices.

What is often forgotten is that many transgenders experience their own ordeals, torments, pains, and suffering. Many would give up everything they currently have to be able to be a young, beautiful, sexy and intelligent woman. And many have given up so much just to have what little freedom they do have.

I was born intersexed, and just played with the girls from the time I was two until I was six. When they told me I couldn't play with the girls because I was a boy, I was devastated. And when I started going through changes of puberty, there were many times when the thought of spending the rest of my life trapped in a boy's body, or a man's body was so unbearable that I tried to kill myself numerous times. I almost DID die several times, and I found that my body would not let me overdose on drugs, no matter how many I took, or what combination. But in the blackouts, I frequently would say just the right things to get many people angry at me, enough to kill me. Suicide by biker, suicide by cop, suicide by red-neck - and yet, it never happened. I was often rescued.

I fell for the fantasy that getting married would change things, that if my wife let me dress, it would be OK, but that didn't work out so well and I ended up losing my wife, children, even my job. I started to transition, but my ex-wife made it clear that if I did, I'd never see the children again. At that time, in Colorado Springs Colorado, it was not an idle threat.

Drag queens and female impersonators may or may not be transgendered, and many who are transgendered find some degree of comfort and self-expression in the drag community, but there are many, who are more vocal, who claim that they are men, who claim that they only do it for the job, the tips, and the adelation of the crowds and can't wait to get back into their boy-clothes - ironically the smallest percentage of the population that includes those in the overall transgendered community. One could argue that gay men who dress up as girls for a few hours but otherwise dislike the feminine - would barely qualify to be considered transgendered at all.

It's sad, and unfortunate that that tiny minority is the group that the media focuses it's attention on.

The irony is that, thanks to computers, social media, facebook, and other historical records, the police are able to investigate teen suicides in more detail and have found that a substantial portion of these teen suicides are related to gender identity issues and sexual preference issues which they feel they can't even discuss with their family, teachers, councilors, therapists. It's only after they are dead that their most secret thoughts are pulled out of their computer.

[Anna Lorree]

I used to call myself a CD, but I don't dress for sexual thrill. That made me realize I am something other than that. So, now I use the term TG to identify myself. Partly because I am not a sexual fetishist, and partly because I'm not sure what else to call myself. I remember wanting to be a girl when I was a young child. I remember the identity struggle becoming very intense and even dangerous in my teens. Yes, I contemplated suicide then. In my 20's I tried to convince both the world and myself that I was a "man". Now I know I am something more than a mere man. What am I? I'm not sure yet, that is why I am working with a therapist, to try to figure it all out.

Here is what I know, bigots would just as soon lynch me as they would you. The same people want to beat us all up. I read that somewhere, recently.

I can not explain to the "normal" world why I am like this, I can't even explain it to myself. But I know I need support and to feel accepted. I can only find that with similar people who can share my experiences to some degree.

[donnalee]

"If we do not hang together, we will surely hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
I realize that there are as many diverse individual stories on this forum as there are members, that a great many experience trials and privation in order to live their lives as they must. This is a place to vent our sorrows, to seek comfort and to search for meaning in our lives. With all due respect to everyone here, we are far more sympathetic to each other than any and I believe that we can stand to listen to a sister berate us for not being similar to each other, understand that this lashing out is just a surge of pent-up frustration and sympathize anyway.
Understanding is a state of heart and mind.

[AudreyTN]

My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

that's just it, you don't. you can't force people to understand or learn something that they hate, are afraid of, don't understand, have no desire to understand, and they don't care.

have you read a CNN article or a Foxnews article lately? If you have, have you paid attention to how it is written? News articles in this modern day are watered down, and dumbed down so that the general population can understand it. why? because most of the people reading anymore don't understand big words. that's why when you read a news article, you feel like the writer is thinking of you as a 9 year old, and that's because the general population thinks like 9 year olds as a whole. The sad truth of it, is my journalism professor told me this and I never once realized it, but AP style writing was designed specifically for the increasing illiteracy rate in this country.

now with that knowledge, do you really expect the same general population to understand the differences between cd/tv/ts/tg/m2f, f2m, transm2f, transf2m, drag queens, show girls, non-op, pre-op, post-op, pansexual and transbisexual and all the other terms out there? let alone, do you expect them to really care? to them, we are nothing more than freaks who are confused or we were abused as children and this is our excuse to do what we are doing.

[Sammy777]

Let me say that this post is in no way directed towards the OP or anyone in particular.

I am on the "side" of having common sense and holding yourself accountable for your actions. Some here will argue that all of us should be free to express ourselves as we see fit.

I say if you want to "break norms" [even within the community] you should accept the fact that your actions can and will have negative consequences not just for you but the community as a whole and that it then becomes your responsibility to own up to those actions.

I'm all for going against the grain, hell it's practically our stock in trade.
But at the same time even within our community we still strive to have our own set of "norms" and "expected behaviors" that are pretty clear using just a bit of common sense.

Common sense will tell you there are certain things outside of even our norms that are just best left to the bedroom and/or more appropriate places and not your local mall on a Wednesday afternoon.

For those [for whatever reason] that are still in the closet I say go to town, have a ball, enjoy it while you can because as you can see here that you will want to come out at some point. Be it today, tomorrow, next year, your time will come as well so be happy.

As for the rest of us who are out in the world ranging from the apprehensive CD'er taking their first steps out in their backyard all the way through to the TS taking her first steps out after SRS and all those in between I say your actions, all of our actions, have consequence to the community as a whole.

I honestly really don't care what you do, where you do it and more importantly what your wearing while you're doing it. Really I could care less.

What I do wish to see is showing some common sense and decorum when you are out in the world. And if you can not do that, then at least be aware that there will be those of us that will do our best, directly or indirectly to distance ourselves from you.
I'm sorry to say it, but those are just the cold hard facts of life, and how the world works in and outside of this community.
The same way not every Italian likes/wants to be associated with guidos and the mob by the public. There are those of us that do not want to be associated with an AARP member dressing like their 12 year old granddaughters.

While I do respect everybody out there for trying to be happy and accepting of who they are at the same time I just do not get it sometimes. And I'm a pretty open and accepting person.

You want to go out with a full beard while wearing a dress? More power to ya!
Just be man enough to be just that, a man in a dress, and leave the forms and wigs home. I actually have a lot of respect for those of you that go out like this.

Want to go out wearing a prom dress, 9' miniskirt, 6' heels, pink tutu, ect, ect food
shopping and you're not in high school then have fun, just don't expect me to be hi five'in ya in the cereal aisle any time soon for doing it.

Most girls [GG's included] have their share of, well, "****ty" clothes, LOL, but most also know when and where it is appropriate to wear said clothes out and when to retire them strictly to Halloween and the bedroom. :)

Want to go through the expensive and lengthy process of transition and purposely stop short so you can keep the "family jewels"? Again not my cup of tea and I don't get why, but again I can still respect that person for their decision.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I will call you whatever you want to be called, no matter what that may be, and respect you for it, but that doing so is less important to me then how you act and in return are seen and perceived in public, which like it or not does matter to the rest of us throughout the whole happy spectrum of people here who fall into the grey area of life somewhere between the nice neat black n white boy or girl majority.

And for those of you who are wondering?
I personally classify myself as a: <Intentionality left blank> :heehee:

Something else I do care about and very much dislike is when loud, outspoken, self righteous people driven by their own narrow minded agendas and not that of the larger group they "supposedly" represent try to enforce their will on any and all opposition, whether or not that opposition comes from outside or within the said group they "represent" while simultaneously vilifying and further trying to segregate those within said group whom do not share their views all in the name of the "Greater good".

So in closing can the above mentioned self appointed hierarchy imposing voices who claim to be speaking for me please shut the F :eek: C K up already.
As you can obviously see I have my own voice and are very capable of using it.
Thank You.

So can we now please put this he said, she said, apples and oranges, I like this name better then that one, call me this and not that subject to bed already because as we all know -
Actions speak louder then words, or labels ? :heehee:


Ya happy 1000th post to me :) hopefully it wouldn't get deleted J/K no really ;)



if you want to get married to a GG and you are a MtF TS. So, the gay rights drive for same sex marriage directly applies to you and you will directly benefit from the efforts of others in this area.
Actually Allie,
In many states a MtF TS' marrying a GG is considered a legal "Straight" marriage.
A MtF TS will have a hard time trying to marry a man in many states because it would be considered a gay marriage due to those states still treating the MtF TS as legally still male. :(

[LeaP]

... do you really expect the same general population to understand the differences between cd/tv/ts/tg/m2f, f2m, transm2f, transf2m, drag queens, show girls, non-op, pre-op, post-op, pansexual and transbisexual and all the other terms out there? let alone, do you expect them to really care? to them, we are nothing more than freaks who are confused or we were abused as children and this is our excuse to do what we are doing.

Many already do understand the differences, just as they understand differences among gay people - butch, femme, flamboyant, stable vs. promiscuous, etc. Most know that drag queens are a gay community thing. Pansexual is in common use among younger people. People have heard pre and post-op over and over again.

That said, I don't think people have the time or inclination to care, and I do think we're regarded more or less as freaks, though some would choose a more delicate phrase (e.g., "different").

Lea

[Kelsy]

Someone should bury this poor dead horse... .

I'll get the shovel!!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

This is the problem transsexual women face... these long threads are a message board phenomena...the real world gives each of us a split second...when i read the varying statements about the differences, or see the written definitions i just laugh...not one person out there gives a shit except us and our loved ones..

It's why a transsexual woman often says "i'm not in any umbrella, leave me out of it".. It's why many ts women choose to spend life savings to pass ..if you don't pass, you cannot avoid this impacting your life..

This is expressed by some people in angry diatribes, but i prefer to express it as a simple fact..

There is no reason to not be friends, there is no reason for a ts person to be unsupportive of anyone else.....and it's reasonable to have differing opinions over "rights" such as bathrooms and locker rooms..and its reasonable for a ts person to say
"No you are not", when someone says "we are all alike"...we share a support forum because many of us change the way we identify over a period of time...we really can help each other...

[Aprilrain]

. It's why many ts women choose to spend life savings to pass ..if you don't pass, you cannot avoid this impacting your life..

bingo!.........................................

[SandraAbsent]

Someone should bury this poor dead horse... .

I'll get the shovel!!

fo·rum/ˈfôrəm/
Noun:
A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
An Internet message board.

If we bury a topic like this, then why not bury every topic, as 90% of the topics started on this forum are repeated over and over and over again. Some on quite less than serious topics.

My original post was not about the differences between members in this community, but rather why sometimes the great divide and sometimes the animosity between the groups. To some extent I believe that there is cause for it, however this does not stop me from going to support meetings, internet forums, and such to support others despite the fact that sometimes it makes me shake my head. You never know, the person that may be sitting there today saying they are a crossdresser may be the next person that finally comes to terms with themselves and decide to start transition. I am living proof of that. They need as much support as the next person does.


Originally Posted by Bree_K
That's the problem. The general public doesn't see a difference. To them we are all fetishistic men that get off to wearing women's cloths...

This is partially true and applies to the segment of our population that has negative views on almost anything. I think you will find deep down where no one talks that the same people that think this way are also anti gay, racist, and just not good people in general. In my short period of time being full time, I have not experienced one bit of this, or at least not openly. This is not saying that its not always in the back of my head.


"If we do not hang together, we will surely hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

That is great in theory, but how does the "community" attempt to represent needs that are so different. Granted some of the needs are needs in common, but some are quite different. Not to bring up fetishest as a negative example, because its not, but how can I as a transsexual understand or try to defend their needs. How can a CD defend our needs for employment security or health care coverage for our proceedures. I support everyone 100%, but the needs and demands are just different.


I am on the "side" of having common sense and holding yourself accountable for your actions. Some here will argue that all of us should be free to express ourselves as we see fit.

I say if you want to "break norms" [even within the community] you should accept the fact that your actions can and will have negative consequences not just for you but the community as a whole and that it then becomes your responsibility to own up to those actions.

I could not agree with you more. I take great pains to be accepted as a woman. I am conscious every where I go as to how my actions have an impact not only on me, but everyone I indirectly represent. I personally work in business to business sales for one of the largest media outlets in our city. When I came out, I came out to an entire county and more importantly to its business leadership. I am acutely aware of how I am viewed by this business leadership has a larger impact on how these business owners view the prospect of someone working for them that is transitioning or transitioned. I don't come in the door waving a banner saying "heyyy, i'm transgender you must respect me!!" What I do is conduct myself professionally and as a woman. My professionalism is what commands the respect. So for me when I see others out there pushing the boundaries and intentionally making themselves a target, I sometimes get hurt by this because it marginalizes my efforts to just be accepted. This is really where my "divide" sources from. It is a I support you, but we have nothing in common attitude.

[Melody Moore]

Sad but true, and the irony is that the fetishists - those who dress solely for sexual gratification is the smallest group of all.
First of all, I would just like to say that statements like this are not true, there is an extremely
high number of males out there who are into transvestic fetishism, but the greatest majority of
them you never know about because they are so closeted. However I come across many guys
on some social networking sites who have opened up and told me they are into this type of thing.

Next I would like to just point out that some idiot decided to take all the various gender identity types and
threw us into one basket they called transgender. This includes drag queens, gender queers, crossdressers
& female impersonators & other transvestites etc who also reject the transgender label. And it is true that
there are a lot of generalisations made about transgender people by society based on a lot of these groups
that don't even identify as being transgender. Sadly there are people that assume that we are sexually perverted
men who like to dress up and get off in women's clothes, and to someone like me who is intersex & transsexual,
I am highly offended by this attitude. So I do object to being put in the same basket as these other fetishist
because as far as I am concerned, I have absolutely nothing in common with them.

The fact is there is a lot of difference between someone like me who was also born intersex and my story
is pretty much the same as my sister Danni Bear's story. I feel I have absolutely nothing in common with
99.99% of the CDers on this site. And even though I secretly dressed up as a girl throughout most of my
childhood, I never ever identified as a crossdresser because wearing female clothes just felt right to me.
Those who identified as CDers before they found out they were transsexual have mislabelled themselves.

So I don't agree with my sister, Danni that we all started out as crossdressers. So I have a different point
of view. The key here is to respect that and not get into any heated arguments about what I might believe.
I don't believe the correct label would ever be a "crossdresser" if you are intersex or transsexual and have
had a gender identity disorder since birth like I have.

What I have also noticed in recent times is that more bi-gendered variants are now demanding the same rights
and access to hormones, treatments, surgery as other cis-gendered intersex & transsexual people. But I think
that is just totally crazy and it is overloading services that should be providing treatments etc to those that
need these services the most. I am talking about people who are not even out of the closet who want surgery
or hormone treatment for breasts development, even the odd one here and there who wants SRS but still wants
to live as a man. Sorry, but these people have not earned the right to ride on the coat tails of those who have
fought long and hard to get what they need. This jeopardises the healthcare for those who really need it the
most and we are now starting to see the results of that happening here in my state. See this news article:
http://www.qnews.com.au/article/qld-transgender-services-risk

So I will never support any sort of "informed consent" model for access to all the services that we get such
as feminisation surgeries etc., because people really need to be sure about what they are doing and I believe
that they need to go through some type of assessment or gate keeping process for that. However some I do
believe that some treatments and cosmetic procedures such as hormone therapy, laser treatment & electrolysis
can be done on an informed consent model.

But FFS & sex reassignment surgery is permanent and it is forever! So those need to be a very well informed &
well visited decisions before these types of procedures actually takes place. And I say this after already having
had SRS at the age of 3 when noone bothered to find out who I really was and ask me what I wanted. I believe
I should have been left well the hell alone until I was old enough to define to others who I really was. But I am
now a by-product of what happens when people rush in and make irrational decisions way too early & too soon
and without proper evaluation. So I believe that these processes are necessary when it comes to having any
serious surgery.

Many who demanding equality with regards to trans healthcare and rights, simple don't have to deal with the
same issues we deal with, especially if they are hiding in the closet & don't live full-time in their cross-gender
identity like we do. So cry me a river if I do exclude you, my advise is simple "Go see a gender therapist first!".

[Kelsy]

[QUOTE=Kaitlyn Michele;2720497]...the real world gives each of us a split second... QUOTE]

I was taking to a GG friend about this very subject last might. She was saying why would you spend all of that money for surgeries when you look "enough like a woman " now. I told her that enough wasn't going to cut it I asked her that when she sees someone on the street or even at a distance how long it took her to determine that persons sex she said she didn't know and we disscussed how that deterimination is made very fast and we are all wired to pick up on the cues to make that determination. I told her that I had to reduce or eliminate my male gender cues as much as I can and go broke doing it if I have to.

K

[Sara Jessica]

I will start my own input by saying that I have no understanding of how someone who identifies as a transvestite, crossdresser, fetishist, or any other label feels or what motivates them. To the extent that sometimes when I read other threads here, it simply makes me shake my head. I do not understand it at all. The only time in my life that I identified as a crossdresser is when I refused to acknowledge myself as to what I really am.

I find your premise to be rather disingenuous. Please review your earliest of posts and threads to refresh your memory. What you call a previous refusal to acknowledge to yourself what you really are is nothing more than utterly flushing your past from your mind in favor of an attempt to climb towards the top of that supposed trans-hierarchy which rears it's head now and again (and again and again and again).

So now we have a supposed kinder-gentler version of the same tired discussion? Please.


My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

Right, my ancient point exactly.

[Kelsy]

Sandra,

Believe me I get it! I understand how deadly serious all of this is but If we can't learn to laugh at ourselves then we can make a difficult situation more so! So my joke wasn't funny fine. I look at myself and can't help but see the absurdity in it all so I laugh at it or I go crazy! I sure as heck don't want to tangle with everyone elses agendas! My plate is full enough already.

K

[Kathryn Martin]

My question to those so easily defensive here, is how you expect the general public to differentiate the differences between CD, TG, TS, TV etc?

I don't think that the general public has any problem to distinguish between gender variant persons and transsexual persons. The conditions are quite distinguishable. This is the reason that Human Rights Legislation where available distinguishes between gender identity and gender expression/presentation. This board is replete with persons being content to be of the sex they are, enjoying their male-ness yet feeling deprived by the gender binary to express who they are as human beings. There is a need to blur the lines of gender binary to be fully expressive of themselves. They are in a word gender variant.

Transsexuals are in the gender binary and must "fix" if you will their bodies to match who they are. They are being viewed as "other" because their actual identity flies in the face of their obvious because clearly determinable sex.

The general public can easily distinguish between the two if we allow them to. None of this has anything to do with value judgements about the "appropriateness" or "validity" of either. I am currently engaged in getting legislation passed in my province to amend the Human Rights Act to include both "gender identity" and "gender expression". I am a transsexual.

[SandraAbsent]

I find your premise to be rather disingenuous. Please review your earliest of posts and threads to refresh your memory. What you call a previous refusal to acknowledge to yourself what you really are is nothing more than utterly flushing your past from your mind in favor of an attempt to climb towards the top of that supposed trans-hierarchy which rears it's head now and again (and again and again and again).

So now we have a supposed kinder-gentler version of the same tired discussion? Please.

Well if you must know, I just spent the last hour reading through every single one of the posts I have ever made on this forum. What I see in my posts are a girl trying to find herself and redefine herself as a women, painfully and over the course of two years. This is about the third topic in which you seemed to find it appropriate to personally attack my opinions and attempt to discredit them as something posted by someone not knowing what they are talking about or inexperienced in the subject, or as you stated "disingenuous" implying that I am pretending. What you fail to take into consideration is the knowledge one may gain while in the real world interacting with humans and not avatars when you discredit my opinions. It discredits anything that I may have read or learned outside of this forum which has a more predominant impact on my personality than any post on the internet ever will.

In my OP I asked that this not turn into a flame war with personal attacks. This clearly shows your maturity level. Thank you for not only destroying what was developing into a very civil discussion on this topic, but for also doing so by attacking me personally even after I gave explicit instructions to keep this on topic and not level it to a flame war. I will rise above what is now the third time in different threads that you have decided to personally pick apart my posts and dismiss and discredit them.

[RachelReaper]

I am new to this forum and perhaps I should offer a personal introduction before contributing my comments, but I’d rather not label myself before sharing my thoughts. I will not quote anyone either. My comments and rhetorical questions are not directed toward a specific person.

Go ahead and pick a nice label for yourself. Select it, revise it, discard it, redefine it, announce it, or do whatever feels right to you at the time. Call yourself a crossdresser, transsexual, pre-op transsexual, transgender, post-op transsexual, queer, fem, trans-woman, woman, or blah, blah, blah. Go ahead and own your label and fly it proudly.

Let’s acknowledge a few facts. Transgender people, transsexual people, and crossdressers face potential discrimination and hardship…..every one of them. As far as I know, not one non-discrimination company policy, law, or other legal ordinance includes the terms transgender, transsexual, or crossdresser. Those labels seem to be non-existent in the legal arena. Most, if not all, non-discrimination policies and laws include the term “gender identity” and the next DSM will use the term “gender incongruence.” Does that make you happy? No one will label you improperly, or lump you together with the other undesirable group….transsexual group, transgender group, or crossdressers….or whatever umbrella group or label feels wrong to you.

I’ll bet ALL of us can agree on one thing that we have in common. Each of us has faced a serious gender identity issue in our life. In that regard, we are members of the same team. Go team!

With that common ground, I believe we can begin to unite and strengthen our efforts to protect all people from gender or gender identity based discrimination. Let’s also acknowledge that the non-discrimination protections that have been enacted to date, reach beyond transsexuals and transgender people. It’s not only about us. The protections include other groups or labels, such as, lesbians, gays, or butch hetero woman, or effeminate hetero men.

The person swishing down the hallway at work in the pink sweater with short hair could be a man, woman, transgender, transsexual, lesbian, gay, etc. Do you believe the person should receive the same gender identity protections as you? Or do you believe that we should make an important distinction between groups?

Do you believe that only transsexuals should receive compassion, or only post-op transsexuals, or only post-op transsexuals that have had FFS, or only crossdressers that pass, or perhaps only transgender people that have attempted suicide, or only the “true” transsexuals that have had SRS before the age of 20?

Do we need a test or scoring system to determine which people are the most seriously afflicted with gender identity disorder, and then attempt to separte them from the not-so-seriously afflicted people? Should the seriously afflicted people be the only people that enjoy gender identity legal protection and special compassion from society?

Efforts to promote protections for one species of gender identity, and not another species, will fail in my humble opinion and those efforts will hurt all of us in the long run. Is shame avoidance behind these efforts to separate the different groups? I think it is. It appears that many people want to say something like, “Don’t you dare compare me to those weird (fill in the blank) people because I’m different.” Is it helpful to separate the groups? I think not. Separate groups are small and therefore weak and more easily marginalized.

I’m fairly certain that no one has shared all of my specific experiences in life, and I’ll bet I have not shared your specific experiences. I know we are different! I am confident that we are unique individuals and therefore we have developed unique solutions to ease our dysphonia. ALL of us face gender identity issues within ourselves, out in public, within our families, and the bottom line is that we have much more in common than seems to be presented in many of the recent threads. We must stick together and unite our efforts to encourage diversity in gender identity and gender identity expression.

I enjoyed the provocative discussion. Have a great day!

[Sara Jessica]

Sandra, I said the whole thing reeks of being disingenuous because on the other fateful thread, you lobbed your bombs and then backed off to quietly observe the mayhem you caused. You contributed to the ugliness there and now you're resurrecting the exact same topic, making pretty much the same points with a phony shield requesting that everyone play nice.

The other discussion was civil enough in spite of you. And please know I have no intent to offer any sort of personal attack. I'm simply calling a spade a spade. To say you have no comprehension of other expressions within our community is the epitome of hypocrisy on your part as evidenced by your words. I'm not implying that a person cannot change their place under the umbrella (oh shoot, there's that term again) as their journey of self-discovery evolves. But to completely disavow where you clearly came from and claim no understanding of that POV, it makes zero sense.

[SandraAbsent]

To say you have no comprehension of other expressions within our community is the epitome of hypocrisy on your part as evidenced by your words.

I am very aware of what I have written here. Hypocrisy? I dont think so.

I have been very open about the fact that initially while deep deep in the closet, my outlet was found in the pornography and the BDSM community, but never did I identify as a fetishest or claim to understand it. The truth is that this is very common because in the early stages for many, as this is a community where many find acceptance. I didn't spend much time there either because it just wasn't my thing and never found any sexual gratification from my gender confusion. If you must know my personal details to validate, I have not used "that" part in 3 years due to my disdain for it, and have always struggled sexually for the same reason. My involvement with that community was exploration and a need for acceptance.

I have been very open about the fact that at one point in my life I identified as a crossdresser and have been very open about the fact that I identified that way because it was all I knew and that it was all I would accept myself as. I never identified as a crossdresser at stock value. It was a deception of self. I have never been able identify with someone who sees themselves as male but enjoys wearing womens cloths. No where in my past posts did I identify myself this way either.


Sandra, I said the whole thing reeks of being disingenuous because on the other fateful thread, you lobbed your bombs and then backed off to quietly observe the mayhem you caused.
Is it this thread?
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?166305-Difference-between-transgendered-and-a-crossdresser

Your right I posted a bomb and left to watch the carnage. You should probably read again. No where did I attack anyone personally and by no means were my comments any more or less a bomb than anyone else. I am pretty sure as I read through that thread, it can hardly be said that I dropped a bomb and left. I posted several times before and after my "bomb" and was very actively involved in the discussion.

I am terribly sorry that you do not agree with my posts or my opinions. I am terribly sorry that you have an inaccurately formulated opinion of me based of of what I have posted. Know this, I am very aware of what I have posted here over two years and I am very aware of my own path. I am very aware of where I stand now and what formulates those opinions and my personality. Never have I taken it upon myself to accuse anyone here of "pretending" or even now the implication of "lying." You really should be very careful that you truly know someone before you belittle them and their opinions. If you cant do that, you should just stick to your opinions.

[SandraAbsent]

can we resume the discussion now?

[sandra-leigh]

What I have also noticed in recent times is that more bi-gendered variants are now demanding the same rights
and access to hormones, treatments, surgery as other cis-gendered intersex & transsexual people. But I think
that is just totally crazy and it is overloading services that should be providing treatments etc to those that
need these services the most. I am talking about people who are not even out of the closet who want surgery
or hormone treatment for breasts development, even the odd one here and there who wants SRS but still wants
to live as a man. Sorry, but these people have not earned the right to ride on the coat tails of those who have
fought long and hard to get what they need.

This is the old, "If you aren't TS, you haven't suffered enough!" idea.

How do we measure suffering -- or, in your words, how "long and hard" a person has fought? How do we determine if it is "enough"?

Let's see... I am "out of the closet" (except I haven't officially said anything at work -- and isn't the catchphrase here, that at work you shouldn't tell anyone anything?). I do live full-time in my cross-gender identity. I have been seeing a gender therapist, for ... gee, 3 1/4 years now. When I expressed serious interest in HRT, my gender therapist said approximately, "Well, finally!". But I am not IS/TS (as far as I know.)

I am thus left confused about whether you would classify me in the category of "those who need the healthcare services the most", or if you instead consider me to be "riding on the coattails of those who have fought long and hard to get what they need" ??

I have been struggling with my gender identity for more than a dozen years. Is that long enough yet that I can at least hope for some scraps at the table?

Let's see.. I am currently getting about 2 1/2 hours of attention per year from a doctor who handles trans patients. That includes my primary care, as my family doctor effectively fired me for seeking HRT (but that's not suffering because I'm not IS/TS, right?) 2 1/2 hours a year including primary care -- is it too much? That's equivalent to 25 seconds per day that I live full-time TG. What would you consider a "fair" allotment instead, 8 seconds per day? 15? 3?

[Julia_in_Pa]

Most here know my story.

I lost everyone in my life and everything I owned due to transition.

This is one experience that I wish on no one.

The alter of transition blazes from what TS/IS people throw on it to be who they truly are.

There are no words to describe the gun metal taste in my mouth from having my 9mm shoved towards my brain for two hours as my life hanged in a precarious balance.

My advice to any person even attempting transition; DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

Your life on a daily basis becomes a test in humility, worry, loss and gain from what you have done.

I've had close friends commit suicide from losing their children and their life of what was taken for granted.

The friend death count remains at three.

I don't want any more dead friends.

This is what happens when you get engulfed by the flame.

There isn't anyone here that would want this. I sure as hell didn't.

Full time living is mostly war with infrequent bouts of restless sleep.

I don't blame any part timer or otherwise for not wanting to experience this and because of this your claim to affiliation based on shared experience doesn't quite add up.

My experience at transition and living is based on over five years of living each day like this.

My experience is typical of what a full time person is subjected to.

For all the part timer's and CD's that read this, go and kiss your family that you have because there are many including me that cant.

I would give up the rest of my life for a chance of getting my family back and to be able to kiss them and tell them I love them again.




Julia

[Debglam]

Someone should bury this poor dead horse... I feel like I am watching groundhog day..........again and again. I am different from you..you're different from me.... let's argue why now.

The voice of wisdom! Thank you Kelly! I will shelve my smarta** response. It was a real buzz kill after spending an evening out with a group of girlfriends (Trans, post op, GG, CD, and everyone in between like myself!)

Why do we keep torturing ourselves? Life is too short.

Debby

[Julia_in_Pa]

Debby,

You said " Life's too short"

And I say to you thank God it is.


Julia

[Melody Moore]

This is the old, "If you aren't TS, you haven't suffered enough!" idea.

How do we measure suffering -- or, in your words, how "long and hard" a person has fought? How do we determine if it is "enough"?

Let's see... I am "out of the closet" (except I haven't officially said anything at work -- and isn't the catchphrase here, that at work you shouldn't tell anyone anything?). I do live full-time in my cross-gender identity. I have been seeing a gender therapist, for ... gee, 3 1/4 years now. When I expressed serious interest in HRT, my gender therapist said approximately, "Well, finally!". But I am not IS/TS (as far as I know.)

I am thus left confused about whether you would classify me in the category of "those who need the healthcare services the most", or if you instead consider me to be "riding on the coattails of those who have fought long and hard to get what they need" ??

I have been struggling with my gender identity for more than a dozen years. Is that long enough yet that I can at least hope for some scraps at the table?

Let's see.. I am currently getting about 2 1/2 hours of attention per year from a doctor who handles trans patients. That includes my primary care, as my family doctor effectively fired me for seeking HRT (but that's not suffering because I'm not IS/TS, right?) 2 1/2 hours a year including primary care -- is it too much? That's equivalent to 25 seconds per day that I live full-time TG. What would you consider a "fair" allotment instead, 8 seconds per day? 15? 3?
Noone is saying that you should be denied access to services to work these issues through Sandra
and to the best of my knowledge that is exactly what you are doing. But don't expect to be able to
just barge your way into a doctors office and demand all the surgeries and treatments, because I can
see a wide variety of reasons why a doctor won't agree to that. There are a number of people like you
who I do agree need therapy and treatments and I refer to these people as non-op or non binary trans
women who I do feel I have something in common with. However there are others who are so out of
touch with reality with regards what hormones and gender transition will actually do for them. And some
of these people have gone ahead and had all the surgeries only to regret is later on. Litigation has closed
down gender centres in the past because of mistakes like this and that affects others. So I think the gate
keeping needs to stay, but it should be more liberal to also cater for people like yourself. However if you
want to go further then you have to complete your RLE and have all the proper assessments done first.

Like I said, see a therapist first, and you did that. So it's all good is it not?

[Princess Chantal]

Thank you RachelReaper for such a great read on the subject.

[Tamara Croft]

Either keep this thread ON TOPIC, or it gets shelved... anymore arguing or bitching in this thread and I'll lock you out this section for a week, so knock it off :Angry3:

[Sammy777]

Most here know my story. Yes we do, because apparently you can't stop re-telling it every chance you get. :heehee:



There are no words to describe the gun metal taste in my mouth from having my 9mm shoved towards my brain for two hours....
Well, I feel I can not properly relay my thoughts and feelings on this with just mere words.
So I will just let the following video do it for me. :battingeyelashes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl8tJrSaio

Call me insensitive, indifferent, jaded even perhaps, or just maybe it's the big city upbringing in me shining through. But it has been my experience, proven many, many times over that the ones who aren't screaming the sky is falling are usually the ones that have overcome the most obstacles and are also the ones that give that knowing nod to others who have endured just as much as they have and just like them do not discuss it with just anybody they come into contact with as compared to the chicken little's out there in the world. :rolleyes:

[Julia_in_Pa]

Well done Sammy...Bravo.

When you have done what I did then your qualified.

As for the video, I've seen the movie but it's not relevant to my experience just as your post is not relevant to the thread.


Julia

[SandraAbsent]

Ive requested this thread be closed. I really do not understand why this topic cannot be discussed without personal attacks. Is it something that needs to be, can be, and should be discussed? Absolutely! Why some seem to to take it to certain levels? Its beyond me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I reread the OP, and I didn't like it so much....it's very cdphobic....

I happen to strongly believe that transsexuality is one thing, and everything else tg is another.
And my life reflects what I believe. hopefully all of us can live a life that truly reflects what we believe

But I really hate comparing my problems to yours, or ours to theirs.....it's pointless. We all have problems...

I know how bad it is for ts folk...I know what I had to give up, and what I had to risk...that's all on me.

But idont see how dismissing others peoples issues is a productive way to move forward in your own life...or a productive way to help others

The differences between us matter. There are issues where ts and cd folks have legitimate differences...and they are worth discussing...but this thread and the OP is not a worthy starting point.

Sandra, you ask why the animosity? The answer is in the words and tone of your OP.

[JulieK1980]

But idont see how dismissing others peoples issues is a productive way to move forward in your own life...or a productive way to help others



Simply put, it isn't.

[Kristy_K]

I would consider myself a TS. I would also say that I miss labeled myself as a CD before I transitioned. I have been out with CDs, TGs, TSs and fully transitioned women (post-ops). I can also see the differences in the different people's wants and desires towards life and what it has to offer.

This may be a bad way to describe it. But the people that need a job will take any job and not worry about any of the benefits as long as they can survive. The people that can really do the job good want the benefits because they already know they can survive.

This example may not hit you right away but if you think about it, depending on where you are in life, it could make sense. The same goes for CDs, TGs, TS, and women (those who have completed their "trans" journey).

Kristy

[DebbieL]

that's just it, you don't. you can't force people to understand or learn something that they hate, are afraid of, don't understand, have no desire to understand, and they don't care.

Harvey Milk realized that if the Gay Rights movement, people needed to know that it was their children, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, and those of close friends - not just some faceless imaginary person - possibly someone who made an unwelcome pass to them when they were kids - who are suffering when gays are denied their rights, denied humane treatment, and are persecuted with no recourse in law.

My grandfather was a right wing fundamentalist Christian, and as judgemental as they come. Before he died, 2 of his grandchildren killed themselves over their sexual identity and preference issues, because they couldn't even talk to their parents. 3 of his granddaughters needed abortions, and 6 of his grandchildren ended up in psychiatric wards after trying to kill themselves unsuccessfully. Out of 25 grandchildren. Of his 5 children, 1 of his daughters became an alcoholic, another married an alcoholic and died as a result of chain smoking. 2 of the "Normal" ones were the mothers of the children who killed themselves, and the one couple who had normal healthy kids were far more liberal and open to the unusual, in fact her husband invented Nescafe, and worked until he was 80. Two of his children had gender/sexuality issues, but were able to work through their issues because their parents were open to it.

Often, even those who identify themselves as CD, TG, or even TV are often unwilling to admit that they would give anything to be the beautiful woman they have wanted to be. Unfortunately, nobody wants to deal with the reality of what it's like to be transsexual, transgendered, and go through puberty watching your body do changes that you completely hate, wanting to do anything to make those changes turn you into a girl rather than a man. For those who are still relatively short and slight, and end up with soft tenor voices, there is still hope, but if you shoot up to 6 foot tall, hair everywhere, and a deep bass voice, that makes you want kill yourself every time you speak or sing. The self-destruction can take so many forms - drinking, drug addiction, high-risk activities, high risk sex, and getting into dangerous situations and trying to start a fight you know you can't win - because you hate fighting.

Doctors have done more research and have found a number of metrics and have found that nearly 1 out of 100 males are born with "intersex" characteristics, symptoms of low levels of testosterone during early pregnancy. We can no see it in simple tests like the length of the index finger compared to the length of the ring finger, measurements in CAT scans - reduced limbic system, and even diminished genitalia.

For most of these young males, they will be intimidated, persecuted, even beaten, tortured, and seriously injured for being sissies - by the time they are SIX YEARS OLD!!! Often, the teacher will actually watch as the other boys bully and beat him into conformity. Eventually, he will learn to hide his deepest desires. He will learn to lie, deceive, con and trick others into thinking that he's "Normal" - just to avoid having to go through that pain again.

Imagine 1 in 100 boys who are trapped in the wrong bodies, and have to hide their feminine side completely. But in surveys, 50% of the TGs surveyed have tried to commit suicide. If we counted those who actually DID commit suicide - and are already dead, the percentage goes up to around 70% or ever 80%

It's entirely possible that just by ending this persecution, and giving these boys a chance to get help and be able to get the appropriate guidance, we could reduce the male teen suicide rate by as much as 80%!!!

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stories/15450/suicide-rate-increases-in-teens-as-an-effect-of-bullying

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_suicide_in_the_United_States

LGBT youth
Main article: Suicide among LGBT youth
A 1989 U.S. government study found that LGBT youth are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people.[6] This finding was supported by a 2001 study that found LGBT adolescents 2.3-2.5 times more likely to commit suicide than their heterosexual peers.[7]

Simply put, if we stopped trying to force young people into conforming to "Normal" - we could cut the teen suicide rate by 60-70%

The fundamentalist Christian - Redneck TEA PARTY "Family Values" faction is pushing thousands of children to suicide, and thousands more who die in accidents in which high risk or reckless behavior.

[sandra-leigh]

why this divide exists. I don't believe in my heart of hearts that it exists because myself or anyone else in a similar position isn't empathetic to others in a different position,

This section is also often visited by those for whom their gender identity issues are more deeply rooted than just caring about cute panties or wearing daringly-short skirts, and yet are not certain what they are, or do not identify at the present time as being IS/TS. If someone is asking themselves, "Could I be TS?" or "What is HRT about, really, because I'm thinking maybe I should have it?", or "I've been thinking about changing my name; how much of a lead balloon is that to friends and families?", then this is the spot to head to. There isn't any other spot, no TG Forum.

And when those "This is getting serious to me" people arrive here and read the threads, then it is not uncommon for them to see remarks that set out the idea that if one has not actually lost your family yet, have not actually held the rope / gun / sleeping pills in one's hand, then one should go back home, cut one's hair, and purge -- statements that would likely be interpreted as "If you aren't with us, you are against us, and the only way to prove your loyalty is to kill your male self completely".

I have had to struggle over and over again to get some acknowledgement here that maybe I have some "chops"... and then it's back to the blanket statements that exclude me (and others like me) again.

Is it a matter of not reading and sympathizing with the IS/TG here? No: rather it is a problem that I and the people in similar situations are often in-validated here, told that we and our accomplishments do not exist or that our opinions are interfering noise because we have hesitated to cut off our little finger.

We come here and we see TS supporting other TS that, "What is between your legs is none of anyone's business", but then the next thread over, we see TS saying that if we don't have SRS for reasons other than stern medical advice that it would kill us, then we should go back home to our panty threads.

Full-op TS struggled to establish themselves as a legitimate community. And now TG and non-op TS are struggling to establish themselves as a legitimate community. And as long as we keep seeing postings that say we do not exist, or that we do not have legitimate need of medical resources, the divide is likely to continue.