Is there a difference?

[Tara D. Rose]

Is there a difference between crossdressers that were born this way? Like myself and so many others on here and others I have gotten to know from other places. So many of us say we were having feminine thoughts even before we even knew what sex was. I was like that. I grew up in a large family in a very small house. So there wasn’t much opportunity to put on anyone’s panties. But the drive was there for me as young as 3 years old I so remember. Sometimes after a bath at that young of an age, I would finish the bath and would go to the bedroom that I had to share with my 3 bothers and a sister that were watching have gun will travel or something. No room ever for much privacy. And so after the bath, I would just have the towel around me and nothing else. It was a short towel and so I would just prance around in it and my feminine fantasies would run wild even before I could possibly know what a fantasy was or what sex was. I would pretend I was my Aunt Fay. I thought she was so beautiful even at that young of an age.
Later on at those times I would pretend or fantasize that I was my first grade teacher. So now in looking back on the earliest memories that I can remember, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I was destined to be what I am even before I knew what I was nor could fathom being so young and innocent. My point being, I was destined to be what we all know that I am.
So I am 100% convinced only to myself that what I am, is totally by birth and and/or genetics. I have known for many years that this crossdressing had never been a choice for me. My question today is for those that only began crossdressing at an older age? And of those that did start dressing later on in an adult life, was it something that happened along your life that made you decide to begin crossdressing? I feel that for me, I had no choice, but for those that began crossdressing in the 30’s and 40’s or even 50’s, if crossdressing began at the later ages, then is it from birth, or is it just a choice? Is it that some of us are born with it and some choose it?
L&R…………………….Tara

[Persephone]

Like you, Tara, I find that to be an interesting question.

My first memory of "crossdressing" was from when I was about 2-1/2 years old. I had some old pots and pans that I played with. I got my foot stuck at an angle in one of them, an old coffee percolator. I remember how my foot got into the pot; I was trying to walk with my heel up as in a high heeled shoe.

There was never a time in my childhood when I wasn't trying to be a girl. I knew I really was supposed to be a girl, I just couldn't figure out how to make it happen.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[DanaR]

I have a picture of me when I was about four, with my long hair wearing a dress. Then when I was 7 or 8 my older sister caught me wearing some of my moms stuff. So, I guess I started young too.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Mum dressed me in a cream dress 64 years ago. quite often, at age 10 -11 i was dressed for a end of year church evening about 80 people & my Mum was there as well yes all dressed up make up & all i was one of 5 of us for the pantomime. 4 of us were girls,

as to your meaning of dressing no did not do it. was not even bothered, to tell the truth, tho hated male clothes of any type, no matter i dont wear them at all , so prob solved,

...noeleena...

[JenniferR771]

This brings up a good question. Suppose a man decided he wanted to become a crossdresser. Is it possible to just take it up like an hobby?

[Katelyn B]

My earliest memories aren't of cross dressing exactly, rather hating wearing what my parents were dressing me in (it just felt wrong) and spending as much time as I could taking them off and not wearing any (always in secret), that all changed when I discovered my sisters cloths, and wearing those just made me feel so much better. I wouldn't say I knew I wasn't a boy, I just don't think I was that self aware as a child, I just knew something was wrong one way and doing something about it made me feel happier.

As such, I've always assumed it was something you born with, I was doing this well before puberty, and every time I see a post with the gist of "I want to start cross dressing, how do I do it", I just assume they're trolling, but I admit that could be disingenuous of me.

[Karren H]

Is there a difference between crossdressers that were born this way?

Versus?? ...............

[Lynn Marie]

Being a somewhat insecure kid with some pretty messed up parents, I've always had some doubts about my own manhood. Therefore over compensation became the norm, and any thoughts of crossdressing were instantly suppressed.

Now that I'm considerably older, I'm quite secure in my manhood which allows me to experiment with an extraordinarily erotic hobby and not worry about who I am. Very cool to be alive and well and set free.

[kimdl93]

I can't imagine having the desire to dress simply emerge out of thin are, later in live, but I can only view this from my personal experience. Like you, my earliest recollections, early behaviors and even dreams that remain vivid after decades, all point to being born this way. I think the question needs to be addressed to those who's interest and first experiences in CDing began later in life. It would be interesting to hear their point of view.

[Tara D. Rose]

Versus?? ...............

Verses ones that begin crossdressing only in thier adult life.

[Marleena]

Tara I also believe it is genetic/biological. Some of us bury, or hide, or fight the urges for years then BANG! I wish I had accepted it earlier in life, I missed out on a lot of fun.

[ArleneRaquel]

I agree with Marleena, that its a genetic/biological thing. I've had the " bug " since I was 7 - 8, and its never left me. After age 55 it just became impossible to for me to not dresses as close to 24/7 as I can.

[AllieSF]

I started 5 years ago from zero as I like to say. I had dressed completely for a costume party as a woman almost 30 years ago for a costume party and I had a fabulous time acting the role of a woman all night long, including using the women's restroom. Once back in male mode the next day, I had no desire to continue dressing as a woman. I said I would like to do "that" again for another costume party, but I never though of doing it without the party atmosphere. I can look back in my life and see some possible telltales that may indicate that I was destined for something different in later life. But I do not rely on those telltales because sometimes us humans have a tendency to try to justify things based on something else, even though we really have no idea and our justifications are totally incorrect. I started about 2 years after I had my prostate removed due to cancer rendering me incontinent and impotent. Maybe my dressing is my way of compensating for my loss of manliness and male sexual capabilities to perform when needed and desired. One way or the other, here I am loving it. Since I believe what others say about not being able to put this big genie back in that small bottle, I also believe that for many, most and maybe even all, that this may be something that we were destined to do either from early childhood or when we finally actually discovered and tried it. Me being the latter. I really do not know and even more really do not care. I am so happy that I have this attitude because it really scares me when I see so many other suffering and struggling with this whole thing. I definitely do not want to be that way. That would be no fun!

[suzy1]

This brings up the question, are we born this way or is it possible to be influenced by life events to start wanting or needing to crossdress latter on. Just choosing to crossdress I find hard to believe.

I clearly remember dressing when I was about 4 years old if that helps.

SUZY

[johanna.kitten]

Tara I also believe it is genetic/biological. Some of us bury, or hide, or fight the urges for years then BANG! I wish I had accepted it earlier in life, I missed out on a lot of fun.

Too right, I denied myself this great gift for so many years. Sometimes I really wish one had a second chance to just get things right, the way they were supposed to be. Now I got to fight hard for every little thing and I do fight for it. So, many
years wasted! :(

/Johanna

[ReineD]

You might find these threads interesting:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?164950-Causes-of-Late-Onset-CD

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?165642-Switching-genders-late-in-life

[KellyJameson]

Between the sexes are there really any differences concerning what the mind is capable of experiencing ? Our nature, (the biology, genetics,DNA,hormones,ect... The physical stuff ) is the soil that the seed of our experiences is planted into. In my opinion almost any man can be influenced in childhood or latter to want to crossdress because it is a natural expression of his inner femininity and why should a man not be attracted to the same things women are? Combine this with his sexuality and you have a potent cocktail. With age for some the sexual energies lessen and the crossdressing softens and the experience of the feminine deepens with a movement toward that which would more closely be identified as being transgendered.

A much smaller percentage (but not as small as everyone thinks) would define themselves as transgendered because environment alone is enough to introduce crossdressing but you need nature to turn it into being transgendered. The physical male brain more closely resembles the female brain in childhood.

Crossdressing is a learned behavior that can be very satisfying and possibly addictive because of sex but being transgendered is innate and often very painful and what may appear to be addictive behavior for a transgendered person is the struggle to swim to the surface to break thru and breath in the air of freedom and the beginning of life by escaping the dissonance felt between mind and body

In my opinion it is possible for some to go through life and ignore or suppress the desire (dissonance) to be a woman but it comes with a different cost than the one of making the change to live as closely as possible to being a woman that current medicine and science allows.

There is a life long dissonance with those who are transgendered of never feeling at ease in their own bodies and for them they play the role of being a man or woman but it is an act that is very exhausting and often the rewards are few and far between.

Being transgendered is a feeling that goes back to the first experiences of self identity and it stands in contrast (measured against) other people, a feeling of alienation because you cannot connect to the world. You try to embrace the world and reject it at the same time and the world does this to you as well because your spirit and body are not aligned so what people see is different than what you are. People see one thing but feel something else in your presence and this causes them confusion and sometimes fear so they seek to change you so your spirit (energy) is the same as your body but this is not possible because you are not what you appear to be but the opposite. Both male and female energies held in one body or in the extreme the absence of male energy in a male body or absence of female energy in a female body that latter in life can cause difficulties in sexual relations that do best when in opposition to each other.

The culture (people as a group) respond to our natural energies (personality,temperament,disposition,ect...) in relation to the vessel they are housed in but this energy is not completely created by us but inherited as circumstances of birth, we are born complete as a canvas that life paints on but this very canvas is our soul, our very essence and beyond our ability to completely change. ( you cannot completely escape yourself and what you were born with you will die with).

These are of course my opinions of trying to describe the indescribable and I have much to learn in taking these vaque abstract feelings and giving them words because everything is wrapped up into everything else and we are not a series of pieces to be examined but whole living sentient beings.

[Marleena]

Great post Kelly! I know I am beyond being CD myself so you make some great points there. As a child I always felt on the outside looking in. I paid the price for suppressing it, and not really knowing what it was all about. It all makes sense now, decades later.

[Foxglove]

I also lean towards the view that I was a born CDer. I felt the urges at a very early age, got started quite young. But what I've learned recently is that "science" has no definite view on this as yet, and so for me the jury is still out. Well, let them deliberate. I'll get on with things in the meantime.

[Eryn]

I think that it has to do both with where we are on the TG spectrum and with our outside influences. I'm "late onset" but I can remember being "overly interested" in things feminine throughout my life. I just managed to keep these tendencies relatively repressed for most of my life.

As a society, we have no problem with understanding and acknowledging the various phases of life for GGs. We talk of their "coming of age," about the ticking of their "biological clock" and about their "change of life."

It isn't too much of a stretch to realize that a similar "male menopause" might mark a new phase of masculine life, reducing the male imperatives, and allowing our TG sides to become evident.

[Laura912]

I would strongly disagree with the statement that "any man could be influenced to be a cross dresser." This is a hard wired thing just is sexual preference for the same sex. It will take neuroscience a little longer to prove the former but the latter is almost established.
Laura

[Lucy_Bella]

I would strongly disagree with the statement that "any man could be influenced to be a cross dresser." This is a hard wired thing just is sexual preference for the same sex. It will take neuroscience a little longer to prove the former but the latter is almost established.
Laura

I have to agree with this... Why would any man go through the trouble we do? I mean in the closet ,Isolated , expensive and time consuming .. I would love to have all I just mentioned to just lay around and watch T.V. drinking a beer ..To hell with it..

[Ineke Vashon]

This brings up a good question. Suppose a man decided he wanted to become a crossdresser. Is it possible to just take it up like an hobby?

Speaking strictly out of my own recent experience, I don't think a man can decide to: "Oh, I plan to become a crossdresser." It's not a hobby for me, like painting or model airplanes. It's just....there. And it has been ....there. For how long? I wish I knew.

Ineke

[AnitaH]

I can't answer for those late onset CDers. It's always been a part of my life, a part I tried hard for decades to eradicate. Much like Marleena I always felt like I was on the outside looking in. I always felt different from other boys. I didn't necessarily even know what was different about me, I didn't know what it was all about. I do remember some interest in mom's bras, panties and heels but I'm not sure if I tried them on. Went out for Halloween fully dressed as a girl one year, I passed back then, even fooled the neighbor. In my teens I read a story about a transsexual woman. That moment the desire to dress, the desire to become a woman hit me full bore. I've never been the same since. That article, I believe, finally gave voice to what was inside me begging to get out. Also like Marleena I've paid a high price for years of suppression. I now have come to grips that I'm beyond CD.

[GBJoker]

I think I might skew the statistics...

From what little I can piece together of my former life, it never even occured to me to dress in female clothing until about 2007ish. Maybe late '06 at the earliest. I didn't know it was called "crossdressing" until '07 at the earliest. Also, far as I can figure, I never had those "outside the group/wrong person/want or need to be different/etc" feelings that can be directly pinned on being a transgender. Virtually all come from the various other things wrong with me.

So to answer your question, as best as I can understand what the question is... I believe it's by birth for some, choice for others, and combo both the rest. I chose to crossdress, and I will continue to choose to do so whenever I am able. Just as I make the choice to study the Japanese language to the fullest of my ability. This does not mean it's a "hobby" or similar. I also do not see my crossdressing as an addiction, similar to smoking. I choose to dress or not to dress, but I don't do it purely for "fun," but because... I dunno. It's definitely not a habit, addiction, or any other synonym, and I don't view it as a hobby or something cool to do every once in a while like a roller coaster at Six Flags. I dunno, I'm all messed up, really.

KellyJameson: To put it bluntly, I'm having problems with your sixth paragraph. Not because I hate it, oh no. Rather because I've lost any self identity I may have had, and I have no self identity today because of a few things in my life. But, from what I can tell, it does not seem to stem from being a transgendered person. Maybe it does for others, but not me.

suzy1: Neither can be completely ignored for testing without possibly breaking ethics regulations, obviously. Keep a kid in a box his/her whole life to test genetics, and modify genetics of another person to test life experiences...? Yeah... That's not gonna happen any time soon.

[Allisa]

Choose it?See my thread in the lounge titled never introduced myself.Bye-Bye,Lisa.

[KelleyG]

I have had the feelings for as long as I can remember. I have not always acted on them because of what ever situation I was in, sometimes I would go a year or 2 with out acting on my feelings, but they have always been there... It made for a lot of unhappy days and feeling depressed.

[PretzelGirl]

First, for anyone saying "I can't imagine....". I would say, imagine it! For any kind of thought you can have, there is someone like that. I have a friend that falls asleep during electrolysis because she loves the pain so much. Never thought I would see that.

But as one of the many "Late on-set dressers" I will vote for being born this way. I guess I will subscribe to the hibernation theory. Some people feel a desire to do something even if they haven't tried it. Others may not feel a desire, but once they try it.... :yahoo:

That's my theory and I am sticking to it.

[StephanieDragg]

Most dressers I have met started at an early age (like me) ...I met one in Saugatuck a few yrs back who started after his wife died, he was over 60 yrs old, had never dressed up or even tried on any feminine things in his life before, went to the closet after she had died and had this urge to try on her clothes, I found his story quite different and unique from most other cds I have talked with.

[AlexisRaeMoon]

I can remember feeling interested in dressing like a girl as early as 5 years old. I had a friend in kindergarten who had no problem trying on the ladies' clothes in the dress-up area. I remember feeling extremely jealous that he had the guts to that. Even at 5, I knew enough to feel ashamed by these urges. At 39, I'm finally feeling alright with myself, and I'm working up the nerve to share it with others. I can't imagine anyone would "choose" to do this. I think it's still considered socially "outside" enough, that you'd have to be overcome by a pretty strong urge to just decide, "yeah, dressing like a woman would be fun!" Just based on the similarity of stories I've read here, it seems overwhelmingly skewed towards "as long as I can remember."

But, you never know!

[Crysten]

My absolute earliest memory is of me laying in my crib watching my mother put on her bra, pantyhose, heels and a dress then apply her makeup and do her hair. I figure I was maybe two or even younger. Even at that age I realized that was what I wanted, and have never stopped wanting it from that day to this. I figure I must have been born to do this.

[KellyJameson]

After reading everyones comments I wanted to add one more thought.

The clothing is a trigger that awakens what is already there lying dormant, born from a unusual sensitivity that is created by something else.

You start to see patterns in everyones threads,posts and comments that transcend our own individuality and unites us and what changes is only to what degree, but it is like seeing a ghost that is only possible from your peripheral vision, once you turn to see it clearly it is gone.

I have known men who hold only masculine energy and as their friend I'm usually a very good complement to them because I balance their behavior (energy) and often keep them safe from themselves. You see these energies balanced in marriage all the time. People look for their opposite energy when they decide to partner up, it is subconscious.

There are those that defend their masculinity and make it clear they are male crossdressers as they should,they live in both worlds comfortably.

There are men that probably would risk death before they would permit someone to dress them in womens clothing seeing this as an act of trying to take something from them and they probably would use words like dignity or self respect to explain it and they are defending what they "feel" themselves to be.

There is also that group of men who "feel" feminine and see it as weakness and are terrirfied of it and react in the extreme by doing those things in society that symbolizes masculinity so no one suspects (discovers their secret) of what they feel. (acting manly instead of being manly, one is a role and the other is a felt energy) When a person plays a role you sense something is'nt quite right because they are acting instead of being.

This energy lives between two extremes yin and yang, feminine and masculine and this duality is interdependant. I think we are born predisposed to our place between these two points but life pulls us out of our natural balance and so we experience conflict until we push back against life to than rediscover what we already were.

There is a state of mind when you do not know what is real or an illusion concerning who you are and I lived this nightmare for many years because I had been so twisted out of my original shape which is for me to the far end of the feminine spectrum of energy (Yin) but once I stopped trying to change myself(act like a man) and accepted my natural state of being I than was able to make better life choices concerning relationships, work, activities, ect .. everything. Identity and energy go hand in hand and the evidence is in our pasts but like tea leaves it is difficult to decipher the meanings

[Missy]

I firmly believe that we are not born this why but grow up this why by other influenced us this is a choice

[sandra-leigh]

The earliest memory that I am certain I remember, is from when I was just over 6. I have a small number of other flashes of memories from when I was just over 4, but I do not know if those ones are real or re-created. "Early childhood amnesia" combined with a poor episodic memory. With a small bit of thought I could probably write a book about some things I learned 35 years ago, but please don't ask me what I had for dinner a week ago!

Do I have any memories of dressing when I was very young? No, not a one. My mother tells me I used to get away and run down the street naked when I was a wee kid, but I think it would be big big stretch to say I "attempting to escape from the confines of my male body" :D

As best I know, I didn't start cross-dressing at all until I was 14 or perhaps 15. And as far as I knew then, it was just trying to get an idea of what it was like to be female, starting from the viewpoint that it was something I was not.

But were there earlier indications of gender non-conformance for me? Yes, in the way I was treated, pushed away by the boys starting no later than grade 1, as I was seen as not being boy enough (I don't think they thought I was a girl; boy outside and who-knows-what inside.)


I firmly believe that we are not born this why but grow up this why by other influenced us this is a choice

That may be the case for some, but my medical history gives credence to the possibility that it is deep neurology related for me. (It is known that I do in fact have an unusual neurology and have had since I was young; I was put through a long series of tests as a child.)

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have read a few other accounts where a husband started dressing for the first time after their longtime wife dies (professionals say it has to do with their desire to feel close to their lost wives again and carry a part of the wife with them, a way to cope with separation anxiety I suppose.)

[docrobbysherry]

That would be ME!:straightface:

I NEVER even thot about trying on women's things until I was 50. I DID experiment rolling myself up in carpets, etc. when I was young. And, in my 20's began an involved 30 year fetish affair with lite bondage. Maybe some of u can equate bondage with dressing? I don't!:brolleyes:
And, when I began serious dressing, bondage has been almost forgotten!

I had so many opportunities with my mom and sis's, live in girl friends, and an ex's clothes. It just NEVER occurred to me to try them on! I mean, why would I? :eek:

So, how did I start? A pair of abandoned jeans left in an empty rental. I simply wondered if I could get them on! They were VERY tite! But, I got them buttoned and LIKED how they felt!:D Then, NOTHING for about a year. Maybe your, "Simmering in my subconscious", theory comes into play here! But, NOT before!:heehee:

And, YES, Tara. It started as a choice. But, after another year of trial and error, I found I COULD appear to be a woman. And then as now, it's no longer a choice!:doh:

[JessicaM1985]

I definitely go in phases. I love my masculine side and want to hang onto it, but I've come to realize that I have a feminine side too, and she is tired of being ignored all these years. But I have days when I wake up and want to be a guy and there are days where I want to be a girl. These days are completely random, and without warning. I remember waking up one day when I was 14 and hating certain things about being male. I remember wondering if I was born the right gender. I had no desires prior to this, but have had them ever since. I chalked it up due to a phase and as a way to cope with the abuse I was enduring at the hands of my father. But all these years later, even when my life is relatively peachy, I don't feel like I'm 100% male. But at the same token I'm not 100% female either. Hence why I'm so confused about the situation. The best I can think of is that I want to be a girl, but keep most of my male mannerisms. Sorta like a tomboy if you will, but girlier looking. I see myself as one of thosr girls that can hold her own in a mosh pit and drink all the boys under the table, but still has a clear femininity to her. I'm probably not making any sense, since none of it makes sense to me. Which is why I have the bottom phrase in my signature. Lol

[jillleanne]

I say it all begins at birth for everyone. It gets discovered/recognized at different ages for different reasons for some, that's all. One does not decide to be gay on Friday morning, nor do they decide to express their gender self on Tuesday afternoon because they can. I was born into a pink blanket and have expressed myself ever since as far as I know.

[deangela]

usually starts at an early age. the way you were brought up has a big factor as well. it doesnt just happen.

[sometimes_miss]

The main difference that I have seen is whether or not the person derives sexual arousal from dressing up as a female. Some of us do, some of us don't. Other differences are whether they separate themselves into two very different personas, one male, and the other female; allowing the female one behavior and indulging in sexual desires and acts with males that they would never allow for their male side. I've never done that, so I don't know how it feels, or if in extreme cases the person has two entire separate personalities.

On the 'decision to be gay'. Actually, there are some; they are bisexual, and DO decide which lifestyle choice they prefer for either a set amount of time, or perhaps for their entire life. I don't have much contact with gay males, so I can't speak for them. But I have known several gay females, two of which were actively bisexual earlier in their lives, who admitted to later having occasional sexual dalliances with men even though for the most part, by that time in their lives all their relationships were strictly with other females.

[Acastina]

I firmly believe that we are not born this why but grow up this why by other influenced us this is a choice

If I'm reading this correctly, I could not disagree more. It chose US. You can't choose your parents, you can't choose what turns you on, and why would any sane person, given a true choice, choose this? The fact that many of us eventually come to terms with it, make the most of it, even enjoy it and come to treasure it as an important part of who we are, doesn't change the more primary fact that we're just this way by nature, or that our lives could well have been easier and more fulfilling without it.


usually starts at an early age. the way you were brought up has a big factor as well. it doesnt just happen.

Disagree. It DOES "just happen". My parents didn't intend this; quite the opposite. My community didn't encourage it; ditto. I tried to talk myself out of it countless times for decades; gave up. I know of one member whose personal childhood history would support the idea of nurture as causation, but hers is a very unusual story and not at all typical.


I have read a few other accounts where a husband started dressing for the first time after their longtime wife dies (professionals say it has to do with their desire to feel close to their lost wives again and carry a part of the wife with them, a way to cope with separation anxiety I suppose.)


Most dressers I have met started at an early age (like me) ...I met one in Saugatuck a few yrs back who started after his wife died, he was over 60 yrs old, had never dressed up or even tried on any feminine things in his life before, went to the closet after she had died and had this urge to try on her clothes, I found his story quite different and unique from most other cds I have talked with.

I think these two accurately describe a grief response, not what the bulk of us experience, and behavioral science has lots of terms to describe it. We need to remember that cross-dressing as a behavior CAN be motivated by something other than TG feelings or gender dysphoria. A psychotic, for example, may actually BELIEVE that he is female, despite obvious evidence. His cross-dressing isn't the same thing. I would put fetishistic dressing, divorced from an internal sense of femaleness, in the same category; it's just a turn-on. I knew a CD who started in his 60s as what appears to be a way to justify finally admitting that he was gay; dressing up made it acceptable to him.


This brings up a good question. Suppose a man decided he wanted to become a crossdresser. Is it possible to just take it up like an hobby?

I don't see why not (other than all of society screaming at you that it's wrong...), but that's not the same thing. For most of us, it's a compulsion, not a hobby, regardless of how much time we can devote to it or how skilled we become at it.


Tara I also believe it is genetic/biological. Some of us bury, or hide, or fight the urges for years then BANG! I wish I had accepted it earlier in life, I missed out on a lot of fun.


I agree with Marleena, that its a genetic/biological thing. I've had the " bug " since I was 7 - 8, and its never left me. After age 55 it just became impossible to for me to not dresses as close to 24/7 as I can.

Exactly. The best, most completely explanatory theory is anomalous neural connections made in our brains during gestation, most likely due to ill-timed and/or mis-dosed infusions of hormones. Once you grasp the enormous complexity of the human brain and survey the (non-psychotic) categories of gender-variant behaviors, it's the only theory that explains everything from lipstick lesbians to macho gay men to crossdressers.

I'd be inclined to believe that late-onset CDs were better at denial and suppression than some of us could muster...

[ReineD]

I say it all begins at birth for everyone.

I don't think we can say that anything applies to "everyone", especially in this forum. If someone says they did not experience any desire to explore a feminine gender until a later age, why would anyone tell them they were in denial most of their lives? This is like someone who enjoys drinking tremendously, who cannot imagine there are many others who can take it or leave it. :)

[Foxglove]

usually starts at an early age. the way you were brought up has a big factor as well. it doesnt just happen.

Like Acastina, I'd have to disagree with this. My parents certainly didn't raise me to crossdress. If they'd known I was doing it, they'd have done anything but encourage it. I don't know of any other explanation but that's just the way I was. Let science explain it some day if it can, but my upbringing was definitely not a factor.

[elizabethamy]

As the one who started the two "late in life" threads that ReineD referenced in a post earlier in this thread, let me say that these questions of why and why now and what does it mean and how far will I need to "go" with it have preoccupied me 24-7 for several months. Because I have gigantic real-world issues of parenting, job switching and moving to deal with, I've made a decision to stop dressing and stop obsessing, at least until I reach a more stable point in my real-life journey.

So I don't know if I will have anything new to offer any time soon. But I can say that I have had access to most of the best medical and psych journal articles through my job over the past few months and it appears that there just isn't much real knowledge about "late onset" CD's and TG's. Was it repression all our lives, or a brain chemistry change in midlife? A sudden drop in testosterone? (I had that one checked -- nope.) Most research lumps late-knowing TG's into the same group as "late-acting" TG's, those who knew forever but didn't acknowledge or dress until late in life.

There is a lot of received wisdom out there. It's believed that it was there from birth and we just didn't know it; that it's permanent and irreversible; that T supplements or shots won't change it; that it might even be an inexorable arc toward total gender change, if we would only admit that to ourselves and others.

None of these things seem to have been proven by anyone anywhere. There's so much that just isn't known. FWIW, here's my self-inventory. Didn't know until age 54. CD'ing was definitely stress induced at that time but has only accelerated since. Never felt I was a girl, but always felt there was something not quite right with me. Always seemed a bit outside the pack, yet was never thought of as anything but male. Never liked the male workout/macho cultures. Not a great body but not a careful, snazzy male dresser -- in fact, never cared how I looked at all until I started buying and wearing women's clothes. With therapist, have explored my youth a lot -- were there hints and signs? Not really. Mom always wanted a girl. (So do most moms.) I have been fairly successful, though in a female dominated profession, but at least as frustrated as I have been successful.

Suddenly -- women's clothes soothe, they calm, they give me confidence and, paradoxically, strength. Have I gone mad? Discovered the "inner female" small to mid-sized portion of my self? Or have I discovered my REAL self is female (this is what the "received wisdom" in the TG world says).

What does it all mean, and what do I do and where do I go? Well, for now, I mostly suspend the exploration to better explore the job market. But right now, and I offer my story in the hope that it might resonate with others, this is a map with no roads and very few landmarks. Where it leads and how I'll know when I reach my destination is as mysterious as ever. But oddly, I feel much better for having explored and read and thought about it so much. I feel that I can go on from a much more stable place, that I can take this brief time off.

If anyone can name any good research on late-onset gender issues that I've somehow missed, please let me know. It's both terrifying and exciting and gratifying to be in the midst of an adventure as mysterious as this one is. Compassion and love to all of you and your SO's...

elizabethamy

[Donna June]

I find it hard to believe someone would choose to start crossdressing late in life. The inclination was probably always there, just kept repressed. I had to laugh at your towel story. A towel was basically my dress too, for many years.

[JessicaM1985]

Amazing post Elizabeth!

I've known that there was something different about me my whole life. I was far more in touch with my emotions than even some of the ciswomen in my family. I never fit in with 'guy talk' and my closest friends have always been girls. I always hated the alpha male mentality and never understood it myself. I started dressing in women's undergarments when I was 14. Yes there was sexual gratification in it, but it also felt like I was more in touch with who I really was. I was raised in a strict, abusive, and religious home, so I had to repress that part of me right along with my male attractions if I wanted to survive. I got realky good at repressing myself. So good that it's taken me 12 years to stop the repression. Even then, I had occassional urges in those years and they were very powerful. I'd placate them by making plea bargins with myself. I'd say things like, "well if music doesn't work out for me, I'll l'll live as a woman then." Or "If this ltr with my fiancee doesn't pan out, THEN I'll live as a woman.". Even with those self promises, I still had "relapses" (for want of a better" term. I remember the horrific shame and embarrassment that came with it. I knew I couldn't stop, but I was trying so hard to. I wouldn't let ANYTHING destroy my facade that I'm a regular guy. I think all my life I gave off an aura that told people I wasn't all male, but not all female. Hence why I was bullied and teased all the time by everyone, and always a misfit and loner in school. At any rate, this is in no way, shape, or form something I would wish on anyone, let alone choose. But I'm just so tired of hiding and the shame. Im truth, I've never changed, I just stopped caring about who sees me as I really am. That's the only real choice I've ever made regarding my sexuality and my gender identity.

[GBJoker]

Stuff... Exactly. The best, most completely explanatory theory is anomalous neural connections made in our brains during gestation, most likely due to ill-timed and/or mis-dosed infusions of hormones. Once you grasp the enormous complexity of the human brain and survey the (non-psychotic) categories of gender-variant behaviors, it's the only theory that explains everything from lipstick lesbians to macho gay men to crossdressers.

I'd be inclined to believe that late-onset CDs were better at denial and suppression than some of us could muster...

Again, I know I don't really fit the definition of OP's "late onset CD'ing," but how would you apply this and the general sense of your post towards me? Am I psychotic, and therefore truly do deserve the name I have on this site? As far as I am aware, I have a vastly different experience in life than most people here, but to emphasize... As far as I am aware. I think it's well known that I don't really ask personal questions.

I'm just having a hard time taking the... what... 15-20ish total examples provided and accepting that as a clear hypothesis/theory just yet.

Maybe I'm just missing, both in my life and in the subtle clues in conversations with every one here, the small, but frequent, similarities that every one but me seems to have and see. Clearly, I must do more research. (*Cough, and pay more attention, cough cough*)


Stuff

Psh, not only is there virtually no research on the notion of "late onset CD'ers," there's virtually no research on transgenderism at all. Oddly, there's lots of research/knowledge on transvestitism...


I say it all begins at birth for everyone. It gets discovered/recognized at different ages for different reasons for some, that's all. One does not decide to be gay on Friday morning, nor do they decide to express their gender self on Tuesday afternoon because they can. I was born into a pink blanket and have expressed myself ever since as far as I know.

I agree partially with your analogy. I take it a step farther and say one cannot decide to be a transgender/cross dresser until they comprehend the phrase or definition of those terms. I was neither transgendered nor bisexual (they happened at the same time) until I had solid definitions of those concepts in my head. Apparently, it never occured to me to wear feminine or female clothes until that point. Also, I am told I never acted "feminine" in the slightest my whole life until 2-3 years ago.

Anyways... I'm getting the feeling that one, I'm not comprehending the full scale of the conversation going on here, and therefore, two, am not able to fully describe my opinions on the topic...

[docrobbysherry]

Why is it some folks have to project THEIR feelings and experiences to everyone else? OPEN YOUR MINDS GIRLS!

I don't think we can say that anything applies to "everyone", especially in this forum. If someone says they did not experience any desire to explore a feminine gender until a later age, why would anyone tell them they were in denial most of their lives? This is like someone who enjoys drinking tremendously, who cannot imagine there are many others who can take it or leave it. :)
Thank u, Reine! Take it from me. In my 20's and 30's, I wasn't in "denial" about anything! Because I pretty much tried ANYTHING that came into my mind! I was single and lived alone, had lots of free time, and disposable income! Heck, I wouldn't have even had to BUY clothes! Girl friends LEFT personal clothing items at my house often!

If I had had EVEN ONE THOT that trying on ladies things mite be fun, I WOULD HAVE DONE THAT IN A SECOND! Also, I know a few others here with similar experiences!

[ReineD]

Thank u, Reine! Take it from me. In my 20's and 30's, I wasn't in "denial" about anything! Because I pretty much tried ANYTHING that came into my mind!

Actually, Sherry, I've just read Acastina's post #41, just before my last post. :o

I think that her summary of the various possible causes is among the best I've ever read in this forum.

[docrobbysherry]

Except for her LAST LINE, I'm inclined to agree with u, Reine!

-------------------I'd be inclined to believe that late-onset CDs were better at denial and suppression than some of us could muster...

[Krista1985]

I only began crossdressing as an adult, roughly 3 years ago at age 23. And it wasn't as though I got a wild hair across my bum and decided to take it up out of the blue. I don't think anyone up and decides to be a crossdresser. It chooses us, not the other way around. It just catches up to some sooner than others based on their situation. And once it does, we tend to progress at different rates based on the circumstances of our lives. At least that's the way I see it, though I freely admit that I could be mistaken.

I only have my own experience to go on.

The feelings were there far longer, but zero access to feminine clothes and zero opportunity, augmented with a heavy dose of social conditioning, stunted any feminine inclinations in childhood. In college I got exposed to all sorts of different lifestyles and began to question some of the earlier programming I left my natal home with. That led to exploring gender identity and the true mission of college, finding ones-self. Shortly after I began grad school, I finally had my own space. No roommates/family members poking around, and a good chance to experiment with long ignored interests in femininity. Like most fledgling CD's, I couldn't rightly explain these interests to myself let alone others, so for me privacy and a bit of disposable income were prerequisites to coming out to myself. I did research, tried out the clothing, liked what I found and went with it.

I don't think that makes me any more or less of a crossdresser than someone that was sporting dresses in kindergarten. I've read a lot of the posts on 'late-onset' CD/TG and many of them refer to a prolonged period of internal struggle, the sense that there was something different about themselves. That leads me to believe that it's something we're born with, and that it can and will surface given the opportunity.

[ReineD]

I don't think that makes me any more or less of a crossdresser than someone that was sporting dresses in kindergarten. I've read a lot of the posts on 'late-onset' CD/TG and many of them refer to a prolonged period of internal struggle, the sense that there was something different about themselves. That leads me to believe that it's something we're born with, and that it can and will surface given the opportunity.

Also, men who are now in their 50s didn't have the internet TG resources that are available now, up until about 10 years ago. Many CDs felt very much alone for the bulk of their adult lives, even if they didn't know they were CDs but still felt they were different than other men, and there must have been an even greater incentive to not explore the CDing all too deeply.

Male socialization during the formative years is likely not that different now than it was a generation ago, but a CDer can 'find herself', as you did, much sooner.

[donnalee]

I think that it has to do both with where we are on the TG spectrum and with our outside influences. I'm "late onset" but I can remember being "overly interested" in things feminine throughout my life. I just managed to keep these tendencies relatively repressed for most of my life.

As a society, we have no problem with understanding and acknowledging the various phases of life for GGs. We talk of their "coming of age," about the ticking of their "biological clock" and about their "change of life."

It isn't too much of a stretch to realize that a similar "male menopause" might mark a new phase of masculine life, reducing the male imperatives, and allowing our TG sides to become evident. I have to agree, having experienced andropause around 10 years ago. I mean hot flashes and the whole 9 yards; I didn't start wearing skirts as a normal thing until about 5 years ago. Another factor has been that I had a heart attack in early middle age, and have been prescribed low dose spiro since then (nearly 20 years). I had dressed much earlier, but considered it a sexual kink; with that out of the way, I just feel a sense of relief and comfort when I dress.
However, I've always been pretty emotional with a very fine intuition. I had to train myself to control my temper, as it would have made me more of a victim to my contempories. As it was, I was smaller and weaker then most of the other kids and subject to a certain amount of bullying; luckily I was also much more intelligent and could think my way out of trouble much faster than they could get me into it. When I hit puberty, although still small, my strength increased enough to give bullies a nasty surprise if they pressed their luck, so that problem solved itself (I just loved turning the tables on an outsized opponent).
I think that we are overlooking something basic here; the sexuality of clothing is an artificial societal construct. Looking at different cultures and different historical periods, the rules for dress have varied all over the map; for instance, the Chinese had the opposite way of dressing the sexes as late as the 19th century, while the Japanese were pretty close to unisex in the same time period. It has a great deal more to do with perception, both internal and external, than anything else.
As for feeling more feminine or masculine, I just feel like me! You are welcome to sort that out however you please.

[sandra-leigh]

I don't think anyone up and decides to be a crossdresser. It chooses us, not the other way around.

When I was a teen, I thought I was choosing to experiment with clothes -- I had an actual intellectual reason in mind when I started. And it wasn't really that important to me back then -- less important, say, then going through my inherited Playboys.

And when I was 33-ish and my (ex-) girlfriend asked me to buy some clothes for her (she was on a different continent), the reason I knew where the majority of the interesting women's clothing stores were, was simply that I liked to wander around, just like bicycling through the neighborhood to find the deli and the corner ice cream stores... wasn't it? And when it turned out that I had quite good taste in my selections for her... ummm... must just have "a good eye", wouldn't you say?

[Foxglove]

Why is it some folks have to project THEIR feelings and experiences to everyone else? OPEN YOUR MINDS GIRLS!



I must say that I can understand Sherry's frustration here. On this thread and the other two that have been linked, there are girls giving testimony to little or no crossdressing tendencies before a more advanced age. For me, as an "early-onsetter", this seems a bit strange. Why should CD tendencies take so long to bloom?

Well, how should I know? I don't know why they were present in me at an early age. So how can I explain why they're present in anybody else at whatever age? I can theorize about myself--to no purpose, since I can't prove a thing I'm saying. So I see little point in theorizing about someone else.

I see no reason to doubt the testimony of the "late-onsetters". They know themselves better than I, and their theories about themselves would surely be better than mine. I don't know if they can prove any of their theories, but that doesn't mean that I'm entitled to regard mine as more valid than theirs. I think this is a case where I'll refrain from theorizing and listen to the testimony of those better in the know than I.

[sandra-leigh]

I see no reason to doubt the testimony of the "late-onsetters". They know themselves better than I, and their theories about themselves would surely be better than mine. I don't know if they can prove any of their theories, but that doesn't mean that I'm entitled to regard mine as more valid than theirs.

Theories? I have half a dozen. Who needs proof when one has enough theories? :D

I certainly fall in to the not-much-can-be-proven category. I was born quite short of oxygen; they didn't think I would survive. Parts of my brain were damaged by this, with my fine muscle control the most obvious. It would be difficult or impossible to go back now and figure out which parts of my brain are different because of that, versus which parts of my brain were formed differently due to (say) hormone washes.

There are studies that have established that "brain gender" does not have only one location, and that instead there are a minimum of six different locations (probably more) that are not necessarily the same gender. When they are not all the same gender, internal (and completely pre-conscious) brain conflicts can occur. This theory seems to match my personal experiences: that my brain was fighting itself, the internal problems so caused built up and eventually overwhelmed me; the "treatment" turning out to be to "transition" to transgender. Why didn't it happen earlier? Who knows? The brain is pretty robust and can adapt to internal conflict to some degree, but the problems can certainly accumulate; it might just have taken that long before my brain was overloaded.

I think it very plausible that there are a number of different internal mechanisms, and that I happened to be subject to one of them. A change in internal balance could be triggered by different conditions even for those who fall broadly in to the same mechanism.

Earlier someone mentioned about the "drop in testosterone" possibility. I was showing symptoms consistent with low testosterone, but when my T was tested at that time, the level was only slightly down from normal, much too high to be responsible for the symptoms (unless, of course, my "normal" levels were very high, which there is more evidence against than for.) My next T test, I was in the normal range. Unless my body was on a "knife-edge" already just waiting for my T levels to edge below normal (a situation that would be abnormal in itself), T levels cannot explain my experience. And I'm be pretty sure that my T levels were high when I first experimented as a teen.

[suchacutie]

Hindsight is always 20/20, no?

My first time in feminine attire was in August of 2005. I had just turned 55, married for 34 years. I modeled for my wife. Within 48 hours Tina had a name, an e-mail address, was a member of this site and it was all completely natural...as if it had been somehow pre-ordained.

Tina last visited this last Saturday. She and my wife had a wonderful time doing a whole array of activities, as if it had been that way forever!

Can I look back in my life now and see the effects Tina has had over time. Yes, I can, at least to some extent, but at the time there was no realization at all. That 48 hours after Tina's first appearance, I searched the net extensively and was amazed at what I found. The enormity of what is out there and the amount I did NOT know was staggering.

Having said all this, most of you likely know that I love both of my genders, so the male part was never a problem for me (still isn't), and that might have been the issue about delaying my realization about being transgendered. Whatever it was, I have no doubt that Tina is here to stay, and was always there. I just never understood!

[Acastina]

Actually, Sherry, I've just read Acastina's post #41, just before my last post. :o

I think that her summary of the various possible causes is among the best I've ever read in this forum.

Thank you Reine. I'm just trying to make sense of something that doesn't inherently make any sense. One can just accept it and go on, or one can seriously wonder why this is and stay curious about cause and effect.


Except for her LAST LINE [I'd be inclined to believe that late-onset CDs were better at denial and suppression than some of us could muster...], I'm inclined to agree with u, Reine!

I think you may have misconstrued that last sentence. It is in the nature of denial and suppression that we're not conscious of doing so. It is in the nature of human development that we acquire layers upon layers of experiences that shape our consciousness, and that more primal things can get buried deeply. There are well-documented cases of suppressed memories of traumatic events that surface years later, so we are wise not to underestimate the ability of our brains to hide stuff from our everyday thoughts.

My difficulty with late-onset CD is that the classic debate has been between nature (are we born this way biologically?) and nurture (did our childhood environment make us this way?); late-onset pretty much turns this inquiry on its ears unless it can be explained somehow, and nature/nurture is the question asked by those who've devoted professional lives to studying gender variance. Your long-term experience with bondage, and (most interestingly) the fact that CD has effectively replaced it, might suggest a more fetishistic correlation than the garden-variety gender conflicts that most of us have dating back to earliest memories. Not a curbside diagnosis, mind you, just thinking out loud.

Suffice to say that late-onset is the exception, and early-onset is more the norm. The grief responses noted previously in this thread offer a pretty good explanation of those cases, as does my experience with an acquaintance who started CD in his 60s in what turned out to be cover for being gay; it was how he gave himself internal permission to have sex with men.

For most of us, CD has strong elements of both emotional comfort and (later) some degree of eroticism, and an especially strong sense of this being one's identity, regardless of what everyone from the delivery-room doctor to parents, teachers, and peers might think.

I emphasize brain development theory because it's a solid explanation for early-onset. The nurture case is pretty thin once you find numerous cases that simply don't fit the Freudian strong mother and absent/distant/weak father pattern. My father once asked my mother what he had done wrong that I turned out like this, and the short answer is: nothing.

So, I didn't mean to imply that late-onset folks consciously suppressed their dysphoria, or got up every morning telling themselves they aren't like this. Late-onset is even more puzzling than the basic phenomenon itself.

[elizabethamy]

While I do believe that not much valid research on us late-onset types exists, the most tantalizing clues that it's always been part of us, just buried, lie in the brain research that's coming out. In my case, my money's on my mother's DES-taking while pregnant with me. One study showed that one third of the respondents had gender issues to varying degrees. one-third! So while I can accept that as the root cause, what I can't understand is the 54 years without obvious clues. Still, I've had many bouts of serious depression, a run of various chronic illnesses, and other psychosomatic type issues...perhaps it will finally be revealed that all these were manifestations of the repression/suppression mechanism. All we have now are educated guesses, but I dream of a day when the next generations of transgendered souls will be able to know for sure at an earlier age. Or, perhaps we'll find out that late-onset is not really TG but is mimicing that to make some other psyche point...I wish I knew...for now, it's one day at a time.

elizabethamy

[angelbabe123]

my first contact was at age 9 coming home early and seeing my dad in lipstick and earrings,i kept that secret with me for 10 years,then i got mixed up in methamphetime and that brought out alot of inner things in me,them i was incarsarated for awhile thats when my father came out to me,he was in a closet and loved what he does,when i got out he died before we could really talk about it,then i got back with my ex then she died in 2004,that's when i decided i really love to wear lingerie and have ever since,i have a very large selection and love every moment i can get into my lingerie,i have just revealed to my girlfriend that i like to wear panties cause i have a big selection,she asked me if she would be jealous,n i said not at all you can try on whatever you like,yes i enjoy what i wear and my wardrobe i am very comfortable with it andmad that is took so long to get dressed up,LOVING LIFE AS MY GIRL