The Sum of All Lies

[LeaP]

In "The Lie", Part 1, the focus was on lies of omission between crossdresser and SO. The approach was scenarios used to drive decisions on justifications. The consensus in Part 1 was that sins of omission by the crossdresser are always lies because the SO has a right and need to know - that the nature of the relationship trumps any considerations of self-delusion or emotional or psychological circumstances.

In "The Lie", Part 2, the focus was on hiding from children. The approach was Q&A used to challenge assumptions. The consensus in Part 2 was that omissions to children are not lies, regardless of unknown risks or outcomes, fundamentally because the need to know cannot be established and the relationship, though close and familial, is different that that between SOs.

In this thead, the end of the trilogy, the focus is that little lie told by (some) SOs to their crossdressing partners - that they accept the crossdressing.

My approach in the final chapter of the trilogy is to ask and answer my own question, humbly appealing a verdict that is based on what I've learned from your earlier responses.

To wit:

Bowing to the collective wisdom of the membership, I extend the logic of the Part 1 consensus - that since the relationship and interests between SOs are identical, then so also are any considerations of intentions, psychological issues, delusions, etc. Therefore, a SO who "accepts" their partner's crossdressing, then reneges, lies. Which is worse, a lie of omission by the crossdresser, or a lie of commission by the SO (i.e., of acceptance)? Answer: they are lies of precisely the same weight and importance and carry the same damaging implications for the relationship.

A gaggle of geese, a murder of crows, and a family of lies.

Your turn.

Lea

[elizabethamy]

Wow. There is a balance. Speak up, SO's! Just as the transgendered one who can't say for sure "how far this is going to go and what it will do to us" is holding back and can be accused of preventing the marriage from stabilizing, so does the on-again, off-again acceptance of the SO destabilize the relationship. And yet, lie is such a strong word. Both are trying so hard to be honest with themselves and with each other; it doesn't feel to me so much a lie as an inner struggle by each partner that hurts both the other partner and the relationship, even as both parties try to preserve and strengthen the marriage.

This is, of course, a hypothetical marriage we're using as an example, right, Lea?....(various winky icons)

elizabethamy

[KellyJameson]

You really are brilliant Lea and it is always a pleasure to read your threads. Not married and no children so I may not be qualified to offer an opinion but had to take a chance that my thoughts may still be of use.

Would the word "renege" ( go back on a promise/ break a contract ) be a word that could be applied to the SO's statement of acceptance of the crossdressing because you would be entering into a contract (promise) without the ability to understand the implications i.e. visceral emotions/reaction.

There are many situations that we find ourselves in that are impossible to make promises on how we will react or be affected until that time and so making promises creates the danger of imprisoning ourselves in situations that than may be harmful so a mistake was made in promising something that could not be delivered.

I have ended relationships when I realized that the only possible outcome would be harm to one or both of the participants usually because of what has changed in the relationship or what I have learned after entering the relationship (a different type of change).

[Karren H]

I can't wait for the movie!! Got all the trappings of a reality show.... Maybe add some vampires to spice it up?

Why do we crossdressers always sound like the bad guys?

[ThisIsBob]

I really don't feel that in many cases the SO "reneging" on their initial statement of acceptance constitutes a lie, per se. I tend to see such a statement more as "I will try to accept this about you as I learn more about what it means for our relationship". Accepting the theory that your mate is a CD is one thing. Living day in and day out with all of the ramifications of that relationship is quite another. Unless they've been there before (in a relationship with a CD), the SO cannot possibly be making an informed decision when they make the blanket statement of "I accept this behavior and all it means for our relationship".

ETA: That being said, it's still going to hurt if it turns out the SO is less able to accept your CD behavior than they initially expected.

[DanaR]

I can't wait for the movie!! Got all the trappings of a reality show.... Maybe add some vampires to spice it up?

Why do we crossdressers always sound like the bad guys?
Because we are easy marks?

[busker]

To wit:

Bowing to the collective wisdom of the membership, I extend the logic of the Part 1 consensus - that since the relationship and interests between SOs are identical, then so also are any considerations of intentions, psychological issues, delusions, etc. Therefore, a SO who "accepts" their partner's crossdressing, then reneges, lies. Which is worse, a lie of omission by the crossdresser, or a lie of commission by the SO (i.e., of acceptance)? Answer: they are lies of precisely the same weight and importance and carry the same damaging implications for the relationship.



Lea
I'm not certain that anything between two people can be IDENTICAL since no two people themselves are identical--presumably not even identical twins. and I doubt that motivation can be categorically made "equal". The last time I checked, Diogenes was still looking.

Stretching this a bit, it would be saying that a gambler and a casino have equal motives for what they are doing--to get money from the other half of the game, but some gamblers are more ego driven, the house is largely egoless but driven to win at greater than even odds.

A wife can't be an equal to a crossdresser and the "lie" can't be because of the variation of the crossdressing activity from some activity to wanting to be a woman. Acceptance can only be when the stiutation is static and the moment variation rears its ugly head, "acceptance" no longer applies because the ground rules have changed. Since one cannot guard against variation, acceptance has to be fluid, and therefore not the same weight as the "lie" of omission.

[GBJoker]

busker has nailed it, completely. Every single word.

I will admit though, that I... sort of... don't comprehend the idea of lying. I have never lied to some one, and never will, if I have my way. This is why I avoid the "Loved Ones" section of the forum and similar posts in other sections, because it appears to me there is so much pain and so forth, all stimming from lying (and occassionally confusion, but that's another thread).

The only analogy I can think of in response to OP is this (and yes, it's a bit crazy and out there): Person A meets person B and they hit it off and have a grand total of a 12 year long relationship. At year 2 person A admits they are a Star Wars fan, and that they were actually just going along with the whole Star Trek stuff, while watching Wars in HD in private. Person B states they are cool with person A being a Wars fan, and that maybe, just maybe they can work it out. Year 7; B-Trek suddenly blurts out that all Wars fans are weird and shouldn't be allowed to dress up as Darth Vader. A-Wars has essentially had a bridge dropped on him/her. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgeOnHim) What to do? Relationship falls apart and dissolves over the last five years, ending in Year 12.

To me, that's just... Not worth it. Both parties made a choice that forced them both to suffer. Why do it in the first place?

And, since both have suffered, it's clear that both decisions are bad. Person A-Wars should have been upfront when they first met at the geek convention, instead of having to hide the Star Wars widescreen dvds in the back of the closet, only watching them at night. And Person B-Trek should have at least stated that it was a difficult thing to wrap their head around, and to give it a few days, instead of being instantly okay with it, since it clearly created an... how to put this... uncomfortable environment, where not only was there potential for Terk/Wars arguements, but also led to a breakdown of understanding and possibly trust.

Okay, even I don't know what my analogy is saying, but do you get what I'm saying?

[JessicaM1985]

What I've never understood is why S.O.s freak out so much over crossdressing. At the end of the day, it's just clothes and paint. They are inanimate objects that only have a gender when we give it one. Even in the event that your man is really a girl and wants to live like one, they are still the same amazing person that you first met. In many cases they are even better people because they no longer carry such burdens of guilt and shame for being who they want to be. Fear of societal rejection? Society would find another reason to belittle and reject you anyways. People are inheritantly judgmental, and if it isn't because of gender-bending, it will be about things like race, creed, religion, ethnicity, personal income, diet or choice of deodorant. People are hateful, and anything can be an excuse to lash out and attack.

People have a right to dress the way they choose and I see any attempt to force them to be something they are not as a form of control. It kills me to see all these amazing girls live in hiding and worry because their S.O. might find out. :(

As for the kids, well there is always the chance they may realize that they are transgendered themselves, and in which case telling them would help promote a more trans-friendly home, which can help lower the statistics of trans-related teen suicide. Imagine, as horrible as it may be, that your kid kills themself thinking you would never understand, when all along you have been experiencing the same thing. It such a horrid possibility and even more unsettling is the agonizing thought that you could have stopped it by being open. Whether or not that would be true is unknown, but in thinking in terms of the extremes, we can gain a better insight into what is most likely to happen. Most likely your kids just simply wouldn't care. If they did, it would provide you an excellent opportunity to teach them tolerance. In all those cases, you win.

This is just my opinion, but it seems like some people overthink crossdressing to the point that it becomes a bigger deal than it really needs to be. Hence why we end up spending more time in the closet than the dresses we wear. If you want your CDer to be open and honest, then make sure to foster an environment in which they can share that part of themselves, and with as little boundries as possible....

[GBJoker]

JessicaM1985: I don't know really anything about relationships, so I'm just guessing here...

Most likely the SOs think that if the CD has been hiding that aspect of their life this whole time, they are also hiding something else. And that can be reversed; if the SO hides that they are not cool with the CD'ing, then they could be hiding other things as well.

Really, it sounds more complicated than it's worth.

[Foxglove]

As usual, in the midst of a discussion, I can see merits on both sides, and I never know which side to come down on.


I really don't feel that in many cases the SO "reneging" on their initial statement of acceptance constitutes a lie, per se. I tend to see such a statement more as "I will try to accept this about you as I learn more about what it means for our relationship". Accepting the theory that your mate is a CD is one thing. Living day in and day out with all of the ramifications of that relationship is quite another. Unless they've been there before (in a relationship with a CD), the SO cannot possibly be making an informed decision when they make the blanket statement of "I accept this behavior and all it means for our relationship".

ETA: That being said, it's still going to hurt if it turns out the SO is less able to accept your CD behavior than they initially expected.

I think this is spot on myself. Unless an SO knows all the ins-and-outs of CDing, her initial acceptance is going to be tentative because she doesn't really know what she's being asked to accept. Only time will tell. Eventually she may discover that she's being asked to accept something she simply cannot accept. I don't see that as a lie.

An SO will have certain feelings about CDing, and I don't think (generally speaking) that people should be blamed for what they feel. Feelings spontaneously arise within us, and we have little control over that. What we can be held accountable for is how we deal with those feelings. If an SO is making an honest effort to deal with something that leaves her uneasy, baffled and bewildered, but eventually finds that too much is being asked of her, I can't see that she should be blamed. Everyone has their limits, and maybe she just can't go as far as her SO would like her to. That's very unfortunate, but maybe there's no reason to blame either person.

On the other hand, I can sympathize with this, too:


What I've never understood is why S.O.s freak out so much over crossdressing. At the end of the day, it's just clothes and paint.

People have a right to dress the way they choose and I see any attempt to force them to be something they are not as a form of control. It kills me to see all these amazing girls live in hiding and worry because their S.O. might find out. :(

This is just my opinion, but it seems like some people overthink crossdressing to the point that it becomes a bigger deal than it really needs to be. Hence why we end up spending more time in the closet than the dresses we wear. If you want your CDer to be open and honest, then make sure to foster an environment in which they can share that part of themselves, and with as little boundries as possible....

Whether I'm dressed or not, I'm still the same person I've always been. The question is simply whether I'm a happy person or an unhappy one.

I'm not currently in a relationship, and given that right now I want to explore my transgenderism as deeply as I can, I don't think it's a good idea to seek a relationship. A lot of people on this forum give advice to those who have come out to their SO's: go slowly, don't push her too hard, accept her boundaries, be willing to compromise, etc. All very good advice when you're in a relationship. But right now I simply can't accept any boundaries that an SO might want to impose. So the only sort of relationship I could have would be with someone who's completely accepting and doesn't need any boundaries--and I don't know anyone like that.

If an SO initially seemed to be accepting and then later turned out not to be, I wouldn't necessarily accuse her of lying. But on the other hand I couldn't accept whatever restrictions she might want to place on my self-exploration.

Annabelle

[J'lyn GG]

I agree, Busker has it nailed. BTW, I haven't lied to my husband about what I can and cannot accept. Or that I will always be okay. I, specifically, said I am not sure how I feel about it, but I will try to work thru it and we'll see what happens. I don't think I have ever come across an SO that says 'I accept your cding and all that it entails, regardless.' Otherwise, Busker said it way better than I could have.

And, Jessica, my husband didn't give me the opportunity to 'foster an open and inviting environment for honesty'. So, until you have been in my shoes, do not deem to tell me that it is just clothes and makeup. It is 16 years of lies, compounded by a myriad of other things that I will not go into with you.

[eluuzion]

Interesting perspective.
Comparing something "wrong" with something "worse" or of equal value is typically laying tracks that will produce a train wreck at some point.

Establishing similar problem solving techniques for resolving conflict as a precedence is building a foundation with straw on a very slippery slope. Once you build it is also almost impossible to repair...the momentum takes on a life of its own. But it will make life interesting, no doubt.:heehee:

Just my perspective. What do I know...I am single...so I'm not exactly an expert on relationships, eh? :o

Hey, the book sounds good...don't forget about us when you are famous, K? Well, maybe you should, come to think about it...heehee.:hugs:

:love:

[Jonianne]

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Crossdressing is an action, a behaviour.

Acceptance is a state of mind.

A state of mind is fluid, depending on how one feels, how one percieves, how much other's behaviours affect it positivly or negativly.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree to try to say a SO is lying when she first tries to accept and then later finds out that it is more than she can bear (usually because of the pink fog or continued lying, etc). If she is lying when she first says she accepts, it's likely she is lying in the same way a husband responds when she asks him "does this dress make me look fat?"

To maintain your SO's acceptance, in a relationship, it is necessary to have lots of communication and working out boundries and groundrules, that give both room to feel safe, but yet grow.

[suchacutie]

At the end of the day, I think that being transgendered is much more than clothes, or at least it has the distinct possibility of being much more. This is a part of our personality and for some of us our personalities divide to a lesser or greater extent when we shift from masculine to feminine. My wife uses completely different adjectives for my two gendered selves. She expects that our opinions about any and all topics could, and have been, completely different. We have come to understand that Tina is simply processing things differently, albeit using the same database as her male counterpart. The fact is that we have a feminine self, at whatever level, and it is an important part of us.

So, now let's add the complication of how open we are about this feminine part of us to a potential life partner. Openness in a relationship is a difficult topic, no matter what the issue is that we might be nervous about our partner accepting, or embracing. I consider myself incredibly fortunate on this relationship issue because my wife and I discovered Tina together, and Tina has always been a mutual adventure. It's unfortunate that it took 55 years of my life before we found her, but maybe that was a worthy tradeoff for the fantastic relationship my wife and I have about Tina. For most couples the CD has worked to come to terms with transgenderism long before the discussion about it with a spouse (or potential spouse). How can it not take years for that spouse to process all the details as well? How can we expect that the initial reaction to having a transgendered mate will be the same reaction after the idea matures?

Being transgendered is still not understood by society in general. When that day finally arrives, I believe that it will be the norm for both spouses to expect a conversation about "oh, and are you transgendered, by the way"?

What a different world that would be.

tina

[jillleanne]

Your answer is a given. The trilogy at the outset, although specific in nature, remains a part of the real question which enbodies the trilogy and that is simply,
" When is a lie good for any relationship? " Had you asked that, the result would be the same. Like all questions and answers on human behavior however, not all will agree or disagree and none will be completely correct nor false.

[Allsteamedup]

SOs do not lie when they say that they accept.
I have been a member of a GGs group for thirty years. Everything goes along OK. Then the cder wants more. That intrudes on family life and finances, lifestyles and joint goals and suddenly what the partnership had is no longer there; the cder insists on his way.

So of the two, Lea, who is responsible for the 'lie'?

I sometimes think it a pity we cannot/do not share more of the traffic on 'Girl Talk'. We go there when things change, we feel disturbed or bewildered, and wonder what the possibilities are of what to do next. Some cders would find our mental turmoil equally disturbing.

At that point nobody would suggest that cding is just clothes. And if the people who put the clothes on are really the same with the clothes on, why do they make so much effort to change their bodies and try to pass as women? Even children who use a dressing up box act differently depending upon which costume they choose. If they wanted to remain the same they would not use the dressing up box!

I have come through pregnancy and menopause, like most women my age. At times my hormonal state was very difficult, no doubt for those around me, too. GGs like to feel valued and there are times when an all-consumed cder can make a woman's life more challenging than it need be. If we go off the idea of cding occassionally it was something you did! Or didn't do! Man up and face life as it is!

[MarinaKirax]

I dont necessarily accept the idea that lies are bad, or destructive. Lies are knowingly inaccurate statements made because someone found the truth to be risky, hurtful, destructive, or counter to their own interests. We tell 'lies' constantly, and mostly we are correct when we determine that the exact truth was not required, that our version of the truth gave the other person the factual information that required, while omitting other details they didn't need or want to know, and that may have hurt them. (I tell my wife I'll be getting off the train at 5:15 PM. (and omit that I'll be wearing a pencil skirt, low-heeled boots, cashmere turtleneck and a cute little poncho)) We make these decisions on behalf of our questioners all the time, and mostly, it works. When your questioner specifically asks you to tell the truth, it is their way of asking you not to make these little decisions for them; their highest priority is the full and accurate version.

My wife was hurt for several reasons - partly because I lied about the dressing, but she also knows I lied to save myself from shame, and ?maybe? her from the pain she clearly went through when I was discovered. The man she thought she married is gone - at least never to be the same - you can't un-know these things - and she felt an unfair loss. Was it wrong to try to spare us both the grief? Is she wrong to lie to me that she accepts it, when she might merely tolerate it? We both make these decisions out of some care and love for each other, as well as the desire for self preservation. I don't think there is a way to score untruth. But I think that the assumption that the untruth is, by definition, bad and wrong could stand re-examining.

And no! I'm not a lawyer! MK

[moondog]

Am I lying to my wife by not telling her all that's happening to me internally because I know it'll destroy her? Is it a lie to want to protect her from things I cannot understand myself? The truth is I am quickly ceasing to be the man she married.

[J'lyn GG]

Am I lying to my wife by not telling her all that's happening to me internally because I know it'll destroy her? Is it a lie to want to protect her from things I cannot understand myself? The truth is I am quickly ceasing to be the man she married.

Yes, you are lying. And since you will probably ask, If I don't understand it myself, how can I tell her? You start with, dear, I don't completely understand what is going on inside my head/heart/body, but....

[LeaP]

Yes, you are lying. And since you will probably ask, If I don't understand it myself, how can I tell her? You start with, dear, I don't completely understand what is going on inside my head/heart/body, but....

I doubt that it's all in the phrasing, just as I doubt that it's the SO's acceptance/tolerance/we'll see/whatever phrasing that matters. It's the reality that matters. I'm fine with the reality being unknown or ambiguous - I can live with ambiguity. For purposes of this thread, it's the differences in treatment of the crossdresser and SO that's of interest. If the phrasing and approach matters so much, maybe there's a SO phrasing deficiency out there in the ether, because there a lot of dismayed crossdressers out there who thought they had agreement, consensus, a contract, green light, assent (pick your phrase). There is a recent thread that is still active that provides a pretty good, pre-LTR, bright-line case, in fact.


When your questioner specifically asks you to tell the truth, it is their way of asking you not to make these little decisions for them; their highest priority is the full and accurate version.
...
I don't think there is a way to score untruth. But I think that the assumption that the untruth is, by definition, bad and wrong could stand re-examining.


I'd caution anyone that the notion of "full and accurate truth" is an illusion. It's a topic that's occupied authors for mankind's entire existence. What people REALLY mean is something like "tell me what I want or need to know." Don't know about you, but I'm only middling good at guessing along those lines.

The second part of the quote is well-taken. It plays in the protectionist comments people make for sure, but it's also a moral quagmire, even when pursued with the best of intentions ... which takes me right back to the point I just made above concerning absolute truth.


SOs do not lie when they say that they accept.
I have been a member of a GGs group for thirty years. Everything goes along OK. Then the cder wants more. That intrudes on family life and finances, lifestyles and joint goals and suddenly what the partnership had is no longer there; the cder insists on his way.

So of the two, Lea, who is responsible for the 'lie'?
...

I have come through pregnancy and menopause, like most women my age. At times my hormonal state was very difficult, no doubt for those around me, too. GGs like to feel valued and there are times when an all-consumed cder can make a woman's life more challenging than it need be. If we go off the idea of cding occassionally it was something you did! Or didn't do! Man up and face life as it is!

I think they do, actually. They lie in the same way that crossdressers who hide lie, primarily in deluding themselves. The position was taken in the first thread - properly, I think for most cases - that people know more than they allow even themselves to know. SO's invariably fear a fairly finite list of things which, suprise(!), often actually happen - which you've confirmed. So extending ANY kind of acceptance - even couched and tentative - is absolutely the same kind of self-delusion. And the CD'ing partner relies and acts on that.

I'm not suggesting any other course of action is necessarily better. But it doesn't make it any less a lie.


Your answer is a given. The trilogy at the outset, although specific in nature, remains a part of the real question which enbodies the trilogy and that is simply,
" When is a lie good for any relationship? " Had you asked that, the result would be the same.

I don't think so. I could liken this to skinnying down the Part 1 thread to ask just about protectionist behavior. I believe I would have had a lot of enthusiastic lying supporters. The forum is full of posts where people advocate lying to their SOs to protect them.


You are comparing apples to oranges.

Crossdressing is an action, a behaviour.

Acceptance is a state of mind.

...
I think you are barking up the wrong tree to try to say a SO is lying when she first tries to accept and then later finds out that it is more than she can bear (usually because of the pink fog or continued lying, etc). If she is lying when she first says she accepts, it's likely she is lying in the same way a husband responds when she asks him "does this dress make me look fat?"


EXTENDING acceptance is a behavior. SAYING you're OK with it is a behavior. BEING OK with it for a while is a behavior. As are withdrawing, saying you will tolerate no longer, and rejecting the crossdressing. As also are participating in shopping and buying things for an SO, helping with makeup, going out together and, conversely, giving someone a dim look when they walk in the room, passive-aggressive behavior, etc. All behavior, pro and con, on the acceptance/rejection SO end.

The second statement quoted above goes to comparisons of crossdresser and SO self-delusion. In Part 1, the crossdresser was painted as a liar despite what he did or did not know, or what he could deal with psychologically. Here you are giving the SO a free pass on the same thing. Which is rather the POINT of these threads ...

The last part - referring to how we interpret meaning, is an excellent example of how illusory truth is, which is something completely different from deception.


I agree, Busker has it nailed. BTW, I haven't lied to my husband about what I can and cannot accept. Or that I will always be okay. I, specifically, said I am not sure how I feel about it, but I will try to work thru it and we'll see what happens. I don't think I have ever come across an SO that says 'I accept your cding and all that it entails, regardless.'


That's completely fair (i.e., your approach, as described). Would that all SOs did the same. They don't and, again, the forum is full of posts testifying to this. And, again, I would refer you to the recent thread I mentioned earlier.

Somehow all these crossdressing partners are getting acceptance signals from their SOs. Maybe it's the phrasing ... Ummm.

" ... and all that it entails, regardless" is a complete straw man. Come to think of it, there's only ONE thing like that in the real world, and it seems just as problematic. It's "for better or worse."


Unless an SO knows all the ins-and-outs of CDing, her initial acceptance is going to be tentative because she doesn't really know what she's being asked to accept. Only time will tell. Eventually she may discover that she's being asked to accept something she simply cannot accept. I don't see that as a lie.

An SO will have certain feelings about CDing, and I don't think (generally speaking) that people should be blamed for what they feel. Feelings spontaneously arise within us, and we have little control over that. What we can be held accountable for is how we deal with those feelings.


That's the interesting thing, Annabelle. Even a deeply psychologically suppressed person - one who didn't know themselves what they are - was held to be lying in the Part 1 thread. But somehow a SO who doesn't "know" - even when they express fear, i.e., what they KNOW inside - is excused. Want validation of that? How many times have you heard "I KNEW it!" Often following by several repeats and things like "but I didn't let myself believe it ..." Delusion. And lies.

Lea

[Jonianne]

.....EXTENDING acceptance is a behavior. SAYING you're OK with it is a behavior. BEING OK with it for a while is a behavior. As are withdrawing, saying you will tolerate no longer, and rejecting the crossdressing. As also are participating in shopping and buying things for an SO, helping with makeup, going out together and, conversely, giving someone a dim look when they walk in the room, passive-aggressive behavior, etc. All behavior, pro and con, on the acceptance/rejection SO end.

I don't buy it for a second that a SO just automaticly stops accepting. Something has changed in the relationship. The cd'er likely has crossed an unspoken boundry, if boundries were not clearly worked out. Or blatently crossed boundries that were worked out. With my first wife, she knew I cd'ed before we married but we did not discuss boundries and guess what...... I ended up going further than she was willing to go and that was the end of any acceptance. My bad. I've never blamed her for that. That was on me and I learned my lesson well.

Another thing that can change the relationship is when the cd'er starts focusing so much of his attention on his dressing, rather than on his SO, she senses and feels that. She starts to feel left out. The pink fog will do that every time. For the relationship to get back on track, the cd'er can have empathy for how his wife is starting to feel and back off until she starts to feel secure again in the relationship. He doesn't have to lose or give up his own sense of self, but he can let how she feels affect his behaviour and conture and change it so that she feels like she is still is first in his life.



The second statement quoted above goes to comparisons of crossdresser and SO self-delusion. In Part 1, the crossdresser was painted as a liar despite what he did or did not know, or what he could deal with psychologically. Here you are giving the SO a free pass on the same thing. Which is rather the POINT of these threads ...

No, it is not the same thing. I will reiterate. Crossdressing is a behaviour. Acceptance is a state of mind. The things you were attritubiting to acceptance and not a state of mind. Those things are reactions. "EXTENDING", "SAYING" are not the acceptance part. They are reactions to accepting. If the accepting is no longer there the "EXTENDING" and "SAYING" will disapear. The whole point a cd'er needs to do when he starts to feel his wife no longer accepts is not to start to blame her, but to find out why her acceptance has dissapated. If he has the attitude of kindness and gentleness with his wife, it's possible to regain that acceptance and then presto' zoom-o... the "EXTENDING" and "SAYING" returns.


The last part - referring to how we interpret meaning, is an excellent example of how illusory truth is, which is something completely different from deception.....

Maybe I missed it, but nowhere have I seen you address in your reply, that it may be possible that the SO's acceptance may have dissapeared because the cd'er has crossed some boundry? Isn't that a possibility? I read about it here on the forum in the Loved ones section very often when the wife shares her stories. I've done it myself, in real life. I know when I screwed up and I don't blame my SO for that.

I will admit that it is possible that some SO's could use the appearance of acceptance or non-acceptance as leverage to manipulate their spouse. People are all over the spectrum, whether they are cd'ers or SO's.

What troubles me in this thread is that you are trying to equate a cd'er lying to his spouse about crossdressing with her trying to be accepting in the begining and then finding out that this is more than she can bear, so she gets accused of lying from the git-go. I'm sorry, this just sounds like a reverse blame game of manipulation on the crossdressers part.

Don't forget, it's the crossdresser that has introduced a new gameplan in the relationship, if the SO has not been aware of it. So it's the cd'er's responsibility to take the extra step, go the extra mile, extend extra understanding, gentleness and empathy to what is a game changer in the life of the SO, something she did not know she was buying into when she married. You can read many, many success stories here on the forums as well, when the cd'er has gone that route. It's all in love and attitude.

If two people are not compatable and there cannot be compromise, then both need to own it, admit it, be adults and live thier lifes separtly as they see fit.

[Lucy_Bella]

My ex automatically looked down on me once she realized my dressing ( all under ) was not a passing phase ... At the time I was still trying to figure out what was going on and why myself ( on my urges ) ,I had no answers.. She told me it pushed her away and I needed to stop " what was I gay ? " ..So I would stop and I would suppress it and I did a damn good job at it but it still came back in time..

It turned her stomach just the thought of me doing it and she said she could tell when I was because I had a smile on my face and I was happy, what the hell? She would accuse me of dressing even if I wasn't and blamed everything that went wrong on it.. I explained to her I was the same guy and I never did anything in front of her ( as far as dressing up ) after she was vocal about her feelings toward it. She asked me to never tell the kids of family and friends but yet she always threaten to expose me.

These we in the days before the internet , I truly felt alone that I had a rare disorder and every woman/family had a normal husband/dad besides mine , I even went to a marriage counselor only to belittled and felt even more ashamed of myself. I fell into a deep depression as my ex wife went out and had affairs with other men even told one of them about my little hobby.. Then finally I couldn't take anymore and moved out !! Got online and started to figure out just what the heck was wrong with me..

Searching the internet I found a few place then stumbled upon here, havn't looked back.. I will never be in another relationship with a un accepting woman again ever! Life is to short, do I blame my ex? No she can't help who she is anymore than I can, she has since I have been gone looked up crossdressing sites to help educate herself better .. Her mind has not change it's something she will never accept..

[Rachel Flowers]

This is just my opinion, but it seems like some people overthink crossdressing to the point that it becomes a bigger deal than it really needs to be. Hence why we end up spending more time in the closet than the dresses we wear. If you want your CDer to be open and honest, then make sure to foster an environment in which they can share that part of themselves, and with as little boundries as possible....

I agree with every word in your post. These threads concern me because the implied logic in then is polar, not continuous, and if there's one thing we TGs can show the world it's that yes/no either/or answers aren't real. "lie/truth" is no different and leads to a lot of unnecessary guilt and manipulation.

[Jonianne]

.. I will never be in another relationship with a un accepting woman again ever! Life is to short, do I blame my ex? No she can't help who she is anymore than I can.....

Lucy, your story is one that I very much sympathize with. I feel your heart was in the right place, but was met with hurts and attacks by your SO (who may have been acting out of fear, but nonetheless totally inapropiate!).

[Foxglove]

I don't buy it for a second that a SO just automaticly stops accepting. Something has changed in the relationship.


I think it is possible for an SO to just stop accepting. Maybe she just gets tired of it. You can get tired of anything--Coke, reading, going to bed late, even football. So why not an SO's CDing habits? Of course, it's also possible that something has changed in the relationship, as you say.

[Jonianne]

I think it is possible for an SO to just stop accepting. Maybe she just gets tired of it. You can get tired of anything--Coke, reading, going to bed late, even football. So why not an SO's CDing habits? Of course, it's also possible that something has changed in the relationship, as you say.

Certainly, it is within the realm of possibility, but I'm just talking in general, especially from reading the threads in the loved ones section where the SO joins this forum, searching for help, and gives and gives and gives and their cd'er just keeps pushing the boundries untill she can no longer feel any sort of acceptance for her cd'er at all. She tried, she gave all the acceptance she could, but then she run out of it. This does not have to happen in many of these cases.

I believe in love and I believe things can be worked out in most situations, if both are willing to put each other first. Yes, sometimes it's the cd'er who is the one who tries her best to work it out, but the SO chooses not to, usually because of some other underlining reason, ie religion.

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucy, your story is one that I very much sympathize with. I feel your heart was in the right place, but was met with hurts and attacks by your SO (who may have been acting out of fear, but nonetheless totally inapropiate!).

Jonianne,

Bingo! These is not abnormal for GG's to react this way, my Ex could not get the concept of how someone so masculine ( such as I was with her naturally ) can go to degrading my own sex by the urge to emulate Femininity.. She couldn't grasp that roller coaster ( she would have to experience it herself to really understand )..

This brought on a fear that in her mind I was in progression to transition ( I wanted to become a woman ) and no matter how hard I tried to tell her I was happy being a man and would never be a woman , seeing was believing .. Her way of looking at it was " why do you do it for?" she actually thought I wanted to become her.:heehee::doh:.. She feared I was taking on her role , I gave her no reason other than under dressing every now and then ( when I could no longer fight urges )to think that way..

So yeah she thought I was living a lie , in her mind she just gave up and insisted I go live out my life and become a woman :doh:.. That was well over 10 years ago ,to date I am the same person I was then with the exception of knowing myself a lot better through allowing myself to evolve from past suppression ( to fully emulate ) and joining sites like this ( for support ). I am really the same person ,with the same out look ( happy being a male ) that has allowed my Transgenderism become a part of my life the only difference is I am the same mentally a little different physically ( I can dress in peace )..

[Foxglove]

That's the interesting thing, Annabelle. Even a deeply psychologically suppressed person - one who didn't know themselves what they are - was held to be lying in the Part 1 thread. But somehow a SO who doesn't "know" - even when they express fear, i.e., what they KNOW inside - is excused. Want validation of that? How many times have you heard "I KNEW it!" Often following by several repeats and things like "but I didn't let myself believe it ..." Delusion. And lies.

Lea

Hi, Lea. If that was the consensus of your first thread, then I'd need to review the entire thread. Because I certainly wouldn't agree with that point of view. In fact, I pleaded "not guilty" on precisely those grounds--that I didn't know myself who I was--and I don't believe anybody later challenged me on that. See my posts #41 and 45 and Jilleanne's post #44 of that thread.

I think a big part of the problem here is ignorance. A CDer can be unaware of his own nature. We all know that a lot of us go through phases, where we up or slow the tempo. And we know that such phases are very difficult to control.

It's easy to see how an SO could be exasperated when her CDing partner escalates matters. This would be a failure on her part to understand the true nature of CDing. But I think surely this is excusable ignorance, given that we ourselves have so much trouble understanding the problem.

Now I could imagine the following scenario: a CDer is as honest and open as possible with his potential wife before they get married, and having come to know his habits from experience, she decides that she can accept him as he is. So they get married--and let's say he's consistent in his habits, never escalates. If for some reason she then changes her mind and decides she can no longer accept it, then I think she's in the wrong. Call it "lying" or "reneging" or "trying to change the deal", she's withdrawn her earlier acceptance.

I can imagine that scenario. How often it occurs, I couldn't possibly say.

I think the real problem here is the fluidity of the situation. His desires change off and on, her ability to continue in the situation may be very sorely tested. I myself would sympathize with both of them. He has needs, she has needs. And perhaps it's not always possible for the two sets of needs to be reconciled.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Miranda-E]

An SO is either good with the situation and where it could possibly go, or they are not. They have the responsibility to be truthful about how they feel.
The common game of pretending to be accepting but really hoping its a phase that will blow over in time, then blowing up when it doesn't go away is a lie, neurotic and just wasting time for the illusion of a relationship.

[Foxglove]

An SO is either good with the situation and where it could possibly go, or they are not. They have the responsibility to be truthful about how they feel.
The common game of pretending to be accepting but really hoping its a phase that will blow over in time, then blowing up when it doesn't go away is a lie, neurotic and just wasting time for the illusion of a relationship.

Miranda, I suppose I shouldn't speak for the GG's on this forum. They can do that for themselves well enough. But what I have got from some of them is precisely that they don't always know where things can possibly go. That's understandable in a lot of cases, because we can't always tell them.

And yes, they have a responsibility to be truthful about what they feel, but sometimes maybe they don't know exactly what they feel because they're not sure where they are or where they're soon going to be.

If they're pretending to be accepting but really hoping it's a passing phase, that indicates to me that they don't really know what they're dealing with. CDing isn't a passing phase, and they need to know that. That's why they need a forum like this where they can learn from us, assuming we're giving them the straight goods to the best of our ability. They shouldn't pretend to be accepting if they're really not, that's true. But if they think it's a passing phase, they need to learn otherwise.

"Neurotic" is very harsh, and certainly inaccurate. As for wasting time for the illusion of a relationship, maybe it's not just an illusion, and maybe they would like to save the relationship if possible, and maybe their CDing SO would as well. Depends on the couple involved.

[JessicaM1985]

I'll go ahead and clarify my earlier post:

If your CDer is lying and manipulating about the crossdressing, then the fault lies with them as a person, and not as them as a crossdresser. Even then, a lot of us don't know ourselves where we are on the transgender scale and many times when we think we have it figured out, we find that we are wrong. I of course don't speak for everyone, and I'm merely giving an opinion based on the limited knowledge and experience that I have. I find that with even my own S.O., I'm having similar problems. He wants his "man" back, but doesn't realize that there never WAS a man to begin with. The worst part about it is that I didn't even fully realize that until now. So when I met him, I didn't purposely deceive him or mislead him. Sometimes we bury things so deep in our own subconscious, that we even manage to fool ourselves and it goes to the point that we are convinced of something that really isn't the case.

Also I want to clarify what I mean as "it's just clothes and makeup". The act of crossdressing in and of itself is not wrong, and nobody should tell another person how to dress. But when you start using lies and deception as a way to achieve your look, then the person doing it is wrong. Be completely honest and up front with people, and people will tend to do the same. Also, I recognize that for some S.O.s (mine included) there is a "grieving process" for the man you first met. I'm trying to show that that person is honestly still there, provided you can get past looks.

I see a similar predicament in the bisexual community. Many guys realize that they are bisexual, and want to explore that area of themselves. But the thing is that they are married and/or committed already. When they start going behind everyone's back and lying, cheating and conning to get what they want, they are bringing a bad name on the rest of the community. But the fact that they are bisexual is not wrong, and shouldn't be put down about it or feel like they have to hide it. I feel the same way about crossdressing. Sometimes it can take people a while to figure out who they really are because they honestly just don't know themselves, let alone know how to explain it to anybody else. The future can be very scary in that sense and I get that. But I hope that S.O.s know that we honestly didn't just up and decide one day, "Hey, I think I'll go ruin my relationship today and wear her dresses."

A lot of time it starts off with curiosity and discovery. Then of course our societal brainwashing comes into play after we discover and we convince ourselves of things like "Well it's just a phase and I can stop whenever I want to." Then reality hits home. We can't. I dunno why we can't, and won't be pretentious enough to try and justify a reason why, but we just honestly cannot stop. I tried for over 12 years and succeeded in distracting myself from it for about 4 years straight and the rest with "relapses" (for want of a better term). I felt a lot of shame and humiliation during that whole time and I suffered. As a "man", I learned from my daddy's knee and beyond that real men don't show emotion or burden people with problems. We have to "man" up and deal with things ourselves. So with such conditioning, how could I ever share this part of myself with anybody? And with the further brainwashing that I was born with, I was told that you have to be very masculine or no woman would ever want you.

It has taken me all this time to realize who and what I want, and even then it's still kinda cloudy. In a lot of cases CDers are trying to tell you how they feel at that moment, but it should always be taken in consideration that it is possible that that may change. And in other cases, they know exactly who they are and what they want.
As was said earlier, acceptance needs to be fluid if things will work. And as CDers, we need to not be selfish. It's a lot to ask of anybody to change their whole perception of a person....

[Stephanie47]

I'm really glad Al Gore invented the Internet, so younger cross dressers have similarly inclined persons to bounce these subjects off. It is somewhat easier for a young cross dresser to gain SELF acceptance by seeing there are "others" out there. We are not alone! Sounds like Outer Limits or Twilight Zone.

My wife did not know of my dabbling with my mom's lingerie when I was a teenager. I did not equate it with healthy normal activity, such as trying to get into every girl's panties. No I thought I was a pervert. I was going directly to hell. When I met my wife I did not think about my youthful behavior. Was I to go back through my mental diary and enumerate everything I ever did in life prior to our relationship? N0! Were there things in my past which would change me in the future? Yes! And, it is not cross dressing.

My wife made some really personal disclosures to me prior to getting married. Disclosures that pale in relation to anything I ever experienced. Disclosures of a nature that would lead me to a very long prison term, if I ever thought my loved ones were exposed to them. I accepted her for who she was, and, that baggage has had a negative effect on our marriage. I'm glad she told me, because, I am able to distinguish between the pain she feels because of my cross dressing and her original pain I have nothing to do with.

Was it a lie to not advise of her of something I had done in the past which had absolutely no ill effects on others? Did I know I may have had a predisposition to being a cross dresser? Or maybe a 1960's pervert? In fact early on she accepted and nurtured some bedroom play, she would later turn against. Yes, later I turned into a cross dresser. I no longer had a 'fetish' to wear a slinky sexy feeling nightgown to bed. I made a transformation into the entire cross dressing world.

If she left me for it, so be it! She did not sign on for it! And, I did not sign on for the emotional turmoil her disclosures had in our marriage and continue after forty years. Did I know her past would affect our future? Did she know? Neither knew.

And, so we continue to make the journey together. I guess I am thankful we both acknowledge we are both with sin. She is not the Virgin Mary, and, I am not God.

[busker]

my Ex could not get the concept of how someone so masculine ( such as I was with her naturally ) can go to degrading my own sex by the urge to emulate Femininity..



I am really the same person ,with the same out look ( happy being a male ) that has allowed my Transgenderism become a part of my life the only difference is I am the same mentally a little different physically ( I can dress in peace )..

degrading. Is that her word or yours? does she feel that women are somehow less than real human beings? Could that have been part of the problem? No respect?

The more important item is that you WERE NOT an entirely masculine person when she married you, unless you started to CD after your marriage. You were always a gallon of white paint with a dab of pink, even though it wasn't entirely visible, and now you are the same gallon of paint with the dab (or two) of pink. Otherwise, you could NOT use the term transgendered in any sense when describing yourself. Being masculine and being transgendered are pretty much exclusive terms.

[Lucy_Bella]

degrading. Is that her word or yours? does she feel that women are somehow less than real human beings? Could that have been part of the problem? No respect?

The more important item is that you WERE NOT an entirely masculine person when she married you, unless you started to CD after your marriage. You were always a gallon of white paint with a dab of pink, even though it wasn't entirely visible, and now you are the same gallon of paint with the dab (or two) of pink. Otherwise, you could NOT use the term transgendered in any sense when describing yourself. Being masculine and being transgendered are pretty much exclusive terms.

Degrading was her words yes indeed . I am sorry but yes being Masculine and transgender can co exist ...But what ever you do please keep that between us here ( meaning this post cause its a whole new thread with the FTM ).. But yes in my Spectrum I do have a masculine side still keep in mind we as CDers all fall under the Transgender Umbrella..

[sometimes_miss]

I"m not sure whether the SO lies; I think perhaps they really believe that they can support us, but when the crossdressing becomes more open and they're aware of it ALL the time, maybe it becomes too much for them, and it's at that point where they change their mind.