And Then She Shot Me With Both Barrels [longish]

[Persephone]

Today . . . It was a beautiful day! The sun was shining, the flowers were blooming (I live in southern California), the birds were singing, and my spouse and I were off to run errands.

I was wearing a paisley blue turtleneck, black pants, loafer-style dress shoes with 3-1/4" (83 mm) heels, and a black jacket.

On my jacket was an antique pin that I've worn a few times this week.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/sandylewiscares/AntiquePin.jpg

Our first stop was the local post office. Several of the women there are very nice and I always enjoy chatting with them when time permits. One is particularly lovely, she always gets all of the postal work done (including their upsells), she offers customers advice about the best way to package or ship the parcels, and she always has a sunny disposition.

I was lucky enough to get to her window. Business was unusually slow this morning and there were no other customers behind me so we had a little opportunity to chat.

One of the things she said was how much she loved my pin. How pretty it was. I told her where I'd gotten it (an antique jewelry sale at a Salvation Army store).

She talked about how much she likes jewelry, particularly antique pins, and how seldom she actually wears it. She even called to the girl at the next window to look at my pin.

Since that lady was wearing a lovely pin of her own, I, of course, complimented hers as well.

From there we were off to the bank where my spouse had some business to take care of. While she worked on the paperwork I dropped in to visit with the bank officer who had been so helpful in getting my checks modified to just my first initial and last name instead of my "guy name."

He was all smiles and we chatted for a while. Then I went out to the car to phone a friend and that's when things started to slide.

Let me back up for a moment.

As out-and-about as I am, my spouse and I realized that it would be wise to come out to many of our friends. After all, it would be a lot worse if they ran into us somewhere than if they already knew. So we've been sitting down with our friends, one couple at a time, and having "The Talk."

We had the talk with this particular long-time friend a couple of months ago and she seemed to take it rather well. Interesting enough, she says she'd been totally taken by surprise, something I find odd because we've kidded about my gender more than once, and because she's been my Mary Kay rep for years!

She went on to tell her family, as we'd expected her to. After all, her high school daughter was as likely to run into me someplace as she herself was.

Anyway, after we'd had The Talk she'd joined us for several days of attending some business/financial seminars that were held in a local hotel; events that I'd been en femme for.

This past Monday we'd invited her and her daughter out to lunch. After we confirmed the plan, she phoned back and said, "Can we make it an all girl lunch? Elizabeth (her daughter) would really like to meet Barbara [names have been changed]."

I agreed and quickly switched plans, wearing a black top with light purple swirls on it, black pants, and the same black high-heeled loafers and the same jacket and pin as today.

We spent about two hours enjoying a typical women's lunch, discussing all sorts of topics.

O.K., now back to today.

While waiting for my spouse I went out to the car and called her. After a couple of moments of chit-chat I said "I'd like to know what Elizabeth had to say after lunch Monday."

She said, "Are you sure you want to ask that?"

[Play foreboding music here] I said, "Sure, I want to ask that."

"She said that anyone with half a brain would know you were a man immediately," was the reply.

She went on to say "I've been thinking of how to tell you this for quite a while, but face it, you are a guy and you look like a guy and anyone can see that."

I said, "Gee, that's funny, because I'm out-and-about all the time, I go everywhere, I travel, and I never ever get even a second glance."

"That's because 85% of people are totally into themselves and oblivious, 10% don't even know what's ever going on, and the remaining 5% are just being polite," she said, "You can fool yourself if you want to, but you look like a guy."

She then went on to dis my wardrobe, saying, "You dress like an old woman."

This is from a woman who admits that she has bought exactly one new item in the past ten years!

She then went on to say, "And those open toed heels you wore to the seminar! I'm from the midwest and I was taught that only ****s wear open toes."

Then she said, "And that pin! Only a woman who was old and fifty pounds overweight would wear a pin like that!"

There was more, but I think you have the idea!

You know how I felt! Both barrels, right into my face!

My spouse came out of the bank close to the tail end of the conversation and we went on to the rest of the day -- lunch at a local restaurant, shopping in several stores, and the rest of our errands, and no, I never got looked at or treated any differently than any other woman.

But there was an ache in the pit of my stomach.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Loni]

she was just being hateful, forget her ..as in take her and her family off the Christmas card list.
go on with life as you know and enjoy it.

[Gaby2]

I'm sorry you had to endure this, Persephone.
Well done for writing it all down - that will help you a lot, I'm sure.
Now you can work on forgetting all about the negativity!
Will you have the strength to keep in touch with these girls, and meet up again?
Maybe everybody will have adapted just a little bit more to your wishes and who you are.
I hope that Elizabeth and her mother already regret what they said and how they said it.
:hugs:Gaby

[DanaR]

I'm sorry, but she didn't have to say any of that.

[Noortje]

Does she speak this, erm, "candidly" to all her friends? What was she thinking?

Maybe she just does not understand crossdressing very well. It may still be possible to explain to her that your goal is not to look like her perfect dream image woman, but to just present yourself in a way that makes you feel good. Like any other human being does. I don't know what your friend looks like, but I doubt she looks perfect either.

"Only ****s wear open toes"? What was she on?

[vivianann]

Wow that hurts, I am so sorry for you. Some peaple like to hurt other peaple no matter what. Will you be crossing paths with that woman at future business meetings?. If you do that will be an awkward situation.

I had an ugly encounter with a woman in wallmart the other night. I was in male mode when this incident took place. I was approached by a woman I did not know, who then told me I was the ugliest ******* she ever saw, I lost my cool and told her loudly that she was ugly as hell with a few expletives, she also used some very bad language to tell me the what fors. I dont know why this total stranger would do that, but she did, I am glad I was not dressed enfemme that day. You should have seen the looks of shock on the faces of peaple near us.

[KellyJameson]

Beautiful pin Persephone, I want it !

Sometimes when I'm out people watching I notice how many women look like men and how many men look like women and I'm fairly certain both sexes would not appreciate my sharing these opinions but take
comfort in this because I'm so critical of my own appearance and hope to blend in.

I have always feared problems with strangers but the times when I have experienced rudeness or cruelty it was done by people that knew me. I suppose there is truth in the saying that familiarity breeds contempt. Sorry your feelings were hurt, that would have been a big ouch for me and I'm sure I would have started crying on the spot. I will never understand why people are so easily threatened by people who are different. Life is so boring when everyone acts the same.

[Vickie_CDTV]

The rude comment about the open toe shoes alone was enough reason to jettison her from your life permanently.

... and I, being someone who has been told they dress too old for their age, say.... "What's wrong with being an 'old lady' anyway?"

Or a 'fat old lady' for that matter? I happened to have dated a 'fat old lady' (literally) and she has more class in her finger than that woman has in her whole body. Perhaps she has prejudices against more than just trans people...

[Foxglove]

What an odd woman. I wonder if she speaks as candidly and harshly to herself as she does to others.

[Babeba]

Whoops! I guess I'm a **** and I didn't know it! I hope Crystal's okay with my promiscuous, shoe-based lifestyle!!

Apparently my iPhone doesn't have the word **** in its dictionary, it autocorrects to slit. It would be better if this lady's mouth didn't know that word, either. It would have also been better if she hadn't dragged her daughter into her gender phobic rant...Anyway, I'm sorry that your femme presentation bothers her, and sorry she isn't more mature and able to deal.

[noeleena]

Hi,
Apart form any thing else , shoes, was this woman around 64 years ago then she should know those open shoes were worn by my Mother & her mother & if she'd have said that to my grandMother she would have unleased a mouth full to her & she was one tough Woman . & she was no s...t or my Mum or others i know who wore those shoes & nore am i & i can wear them as well.

So i wonder theres more going on with her & she needs to wake up. a bit & open her eyes .& maybe learn that she has not got much idear out side her narrow view of things,

I would not worry about what she said ...... you know the saying let the water wash over you & take what she said away with the tide,

...noeleena...

[jjjjohanne]

I predict that she thinks that she can discourage you from doing what she disapproves of by openly expressing her opinion in a harsh way like that. She spoke selfishly. But you have to wear the pressure those words placed on you. That is stinky.

[Jonianne]

I'm so sorry. That was extremely rude. I'm sure the mother added a few of her own ideas in the story as well.

Persephone, like in the movie "The Green Mile" when Mr Coffey was being taken and said he felt the stings of those who hated him, his friends said to focus on those who give you the kind and gentle looks of love and understanding.

It hurts me to feel how you must hurt.

[suchacutie]

I may be perverse, but there is something very positive about all of this. The word is "catty" and the fact that she took all that time to take you apart piece by piece is telling my that you've earned your wings! Haven't you ever been privvy to a conversation where a group of GGs take apart another GG (regardless of age!)? Seems to me you've joined the club! This is something my wife warned Tina about a while ago, and although it must have been rather unpleasant when it first hit you, I hope you are seeing the positive aspect of this now!

:)

Tina

[~Joanne~]

Really sorry to hear this happened to you Persephone :( Had it happened to me I would have ran to the dumpster to remove everything only to start again a week later. I also agree with everything Tina wrote. This woman must be very insecure with her own being to have gone to such lengths to take you apart piece by piece. She was probably jealous you wore yourself better than she does.

Even though it bothered you a bit, you were strong enough and confident enough in yourself to go on with your day and in the end your happiness is all that matters :)

[LeaP]

I may be perverse, but there is something very positive about all of this. The word is "catty" and the fact that she took all that time to take you apart piece by piece is telling my that you've earned your wings! Haven't you ever been privvy to a conversation where a group of GGs take apart another GG (regardless of age!)? Seems to me you've joined the club! This is something my wife warned Tina about a while ago, and although it must have been rather unpleasant when it first hit you, I hope you are seeing the positive aspect of this now!

:)

Tina

My thoughts exactly. In fact, I considered starting a response with "congratulations." It seems to fit, but for the hurt, which I'm sorry you had to endure. Fear of such things are what keep most in the closet.

Your friend was very blunt. She could have warned you more than she did. But you did ask. She took it overboard by adding things about which you did not ask. But there was enough of a relationship established for this to be a heart-to-heart (assuming her intentions here). Time will tell whether this was really a perverse sign of acceptance, or whether this was the beginning of the end.

Lea

[linda allen]

Some people are hurtfull and there's nothing you can do about it except ignore them. You friend's daughter shouldn't have said what she said and your friend shouldn't have repeated it.

And just to pick at one point, open toed shoes are very common in my area so her daughter fails as a fashion expert.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Women tearing down other women because of their appearance is common and all, but... speaking as a man, it is a very ugly thing to witness and an unpleasant aspect of female behavior I really wish would go away (not all GGs of do that of course but you know what I mean.) Again, speaking as a man, I have to think... don't women have enough problems in this society without tearing each other down over such petty nonsense as their weight or what they wear or whatever?

[Danni Renee]

WOW Persephone! I feel so sorry for you. I don't know if your "freind" meant to be so hurtful or just starting running off at the mouth and did not know when to stop but I can understand that ache in your stomach. But in the end, opinions are like buttholes - everyone has one. Love yourself and love your wife and do not care what other think.

Danni

[kimdl93]

I would put that behind you. The girl was obviously in a sour mood. Yes, the reality is that most of us have some noticeable male features and do not "pass", and its true that peopleusually get on with their own lives and leave us unmolested to live ours. But, the criticisms went way beyond the obvious, into areas of style. For example, I happen to like peeps. So does my wife and many other women I know....and I'm from the Midwest. Besides that, lots of people of all sorts of ages and sizes wear antique jewelry.

[Stephenie S]

I may be perverse, but there is something very positive about all of this. The word is "catty" and the fact that she took all that time to take you apart piece by piece is telling my that you've earned your wings! Haven't you ever been privvy to a conversation where a group of GGs take apart another GG (regardless of age!)? Seems to me you've joined the club! This is something my wife warned Tina about a while ago, and although it must have been rather unpleasant when it first hit you, I hope you are seeing the positive aspect of this now!

:)

Tina

I agree 100%.

Welcome to the club. PLEASE don't worry about this. Women can be as catty as all get out and kiss you twice the next time they see you.

And there was some truth to what she said, right? From what you describe, your look was a bit more metrosexual than all out female. Perhaps she thought you should be making more of an effort?

Ignore this incident. When you see that b*tch again pretend the incident never happened. And remember that your wife warned you against going there in the first place. She knows more about being a woman than you do. Listen to her and learn from her.

Stephie

[Marleena]

So sorry Persephone! This woman is not a friend, she went too far with her comments. It sounds like her daughter was the one to get her wound up about it all. It was meant to be hurtful in my mind, she was even making it up as she went.

[JenniferR771]

I thkink theat other woman was jealous--felt threatened by your good looks.

Sad--no matter how much she tries to tear someone else down--she won't look any better--and won't lose any weight.

[SherriePall]

My stomach did a few turns when I read that account of the conversation. I really don't know if I could have kept my cool if someone blasted me in that manner. And, if she were really being catty about things, I still feel she was totally out of place with her comments. If she were trying to offer some constructive criticism, then she failed completely. I hope that this hurtful conversation quickly fades from your memory. And, maybe, she will, too.

[Pythos]

You may say that this was both Barrels, but, to me this is constructive criticism. I have read and seen too many instances of CDs or GGs, or what have you dressing what can only be called frumpy. My view is to have fun with this hobby of ours, not look frumpy. Be an example, not a sheep to be more to the point.

I do not think your spouse or the other person were trying to destroy you or hurt you, I think they were however telling you the truth in their eyes.

The individual is correct about the reason people say nothing, and it is unfortunate. The only way I know I am turning heads with my looks is not due to the polite silence, for in my book there is no such thing. But instead it is from the overwhelming compliments I get when I show up in what I am wearing for that event. That is in fact my only gauge (well aside from my GFs hands roaming my body, but we won't go into details with that :P ). I am quite obviously male to them though, and I have absolutely no issues with that for that is what I am going for. That fine blend of male and female styles.

In your case, it sounds like they are willing to offer advice, and the only bit I can see that I would have some objections to is the one about the open toed shoes. That was just an ignorant statement through and through.

Take this as the opinion that it is. Remember that opinions are like a**es, every one has one.

[Kathi Lake]

Barbara,

What an unfortunate situation to be put in. Whether she thought she was doing you a favor or not, it certainly could have been done in a better manner. Still, knowing you, I'm sure you handled it it with the grace and style that this lady obviously lacks.

Kathi

[Debra Russell]

You all know how many pictures we take before we decide to post one we like! well when every one looks at us they see the views we all discarded - as in our minds we hold the chosen view as what others see all the time ----NOT When we get the stray negative or hurtfull comment we need to remember all the discarded views. So when your close to someone rember they see far more of the discarded views than the odd one we save --- to be expected but still hurtfull.............................Debra

[joandher]

I thkink theat other woman was jealous--felt threatened by your good looks.

Sad--no matter how much she tries to tear someone else down--she won't look any better--and won't lose any weight.


I'm of the same opinion as Jennifer, it might be that her daughter liked the idea, but her mother didn't want her to be associated with you, or she might have commented to her mother that you look more a woman than her ???
To me it seems like a great deal of envy so take it as a compliment

Hugs J-JAY

[Marie-Elise]

It's a shame how intolerant people can be toward those who are different in some way. They try to keep alive their flawed perception that life is black and white. In reality, there are many shades of grey. Instead of trying to understand and embrace, they try to tear you down and make you feel like a lesser being, like you don't deserve what they have.

Hold your head up. You are a better person than she is by a long shot.

[meganmartin]

Sorry about this unpleasent experience...

My mother told me something a long time ago " if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything"
Take it that this person was not taught this simple life lesson.

[rebekkadg]

She did ask if you really wanted to know. Honestly I take it as constructive critisism even if it was very blunt (like a hammer blunt). She didn't attack your lifestyle and was frank about how she felt you did at passing. It isn't an honest answer we want to hear but not all honest answers go that way. On the flip side as you pointed out you go around very often without a word and if no one ever says anything and have been very comfortable with it to this point why worry too much about it? If you want to work on your look some more based on that information that is up to you but it shouldn't detour you from what you have been doing as what you have been doing has been working perfectly fine.

[Bethany38]

Really sorry you had to endure this. It is, however, unfortunate that we will have to, for as far as I can see, have to deal with the bigotry of those less aware than some of us in the world. What an amazing race us humans will be when we can see past the difference of others, when we can accept people for their individual brilliance.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If it was an honest answer, that's it...the person was not nice, but laid it out for you...
The hard truth is that many people openly mock crossdressers but only from behind..
As a transitioned person, i have seen it first hand more than once...

Dont stoop to the girls level... Rest assured that very few gg's are jealous of a crossdresser for their better looks..

I think your best bet is to take the comment as a nasty criticism, and don't let it get you down...
maybe even realize since this is pretty much a worst case scenario, once you get up and dust yourself off, what can they possibly do to you next?

They've done their worst! So soldier on!!

[Debglam]

Wow Barbara, she must be a "record setting" Mary Kay salesperson with interpersonal skills like that! The daughter. . .you can see that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Would any of us say this to anyone? Friend, stranger, male, female? She is a jerk and you should drop her.


We had the talk with this particular long-time friend a couple of months ago and she seemed to take it rather well. Interesting enough, she says she'd been totally taken by surprise, something I find odd because we've kidded about my gender more than once, and because she's been my Mary Kay rep for years!

She went on to say "I've been thinking of how to tell you this for quite a while, but face it, you are a guy and you look like a guy and anyone can see that."Hugs,
Persephone.

This says it all to me. She has issues with your being transgender.

Sorry,
Debby

[AllieSF]

Sorry to hear about what you had to hear. That being said, I also agree that she warned you and you wanted the truth and that is what you got, at least her truth. So, as said above, take it as constructive criticism given in a pretty harsh way. I also agree that you should not stoop to her level in any type of reaction or response now or in the future. What I would suggest, however, is that since the door to honest communications is really open with her, which is really a very rare occurrence between two people friends or not, that you may want to take the opportunity to further discuss this with her. The reason that I say this to you is because it appears that you meet periodically with her in guy, guy/girl and girl mode. That to me looks likes that she likes you enough to be comfortable around you and to be with you in public. I see a great opportunity to have some truly direct, open and honest communications with someone. If at the end of a second conversation with her, she continues to be too harsh in her criticisms, that you can always decide to just write her off. I just think that both of you can learn a lot with more contact.

PS: Just like a lot of the posts about coming out to SO's and their initial acceptance and then some type of going backward with their acceptance later, this friend is probably still trying to remain a frined and at the same time trying to deal with this new surprising personal information about you. Maybe she needs the same type of chance that we would recommend regarding the surprised SO. Something to think about anyway.

[rebekkadg]

This says it all to me. She has issues with your being transgender.

Sorry,
Debby

I think that is reading too much into it. The fact that she herself was the one that suggested the get together as an all girls thing seems even more contrary to the idea she was issues with transgenders. I think they came in expecting someone who looked perfectly like a GG and when they didn't get that were a little heavy with the feedback. Yeah their ways of phrasing things was horrible and somewhat tactless but it was honest. Their bottom line was not she was wrong for crossdressing but that she didn't pass to them and why.

[Julogden]

Persephone, don't let this get to you. It sounds like Elizabeth and mom probably have issues that made them say those mean things. Ignore them and their petty remarks.

The fact that you're going out regularly and are being treated nicely and appropriately by everyone around you should tell you what the real truth is.

Carol :hugs:

[MsJanessa]

Don't worry about what she said or thinks--better to be read (and accepted) as a pretty CD than pass as a plain GG, IMO

[Vickie_CDTV]

If it was intended to be constructive criticism, the GG would have been objective and left out the unkind, personal remarks and just focused on pointing out areas she could work on to improve her passability.

[Violetgray]

Wait a sec, is this you?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?151198-Which-Hairstyle&highlight=

I hate when Cd's on here pump up each other's heads about their looks if the name of being supportive, but I must disagree with her assessment here. Are you really tall? Also keep in mind that people who know you are more likely to read you as well. I'm not sure what she hoped to accomplish here. "Thanks for letting me know! I'll stop crossdressing posthaste!"

Only ****s wear open toed shoes? I guess the beach is a HUGE mecca for hoebags. So you dress like an old woman AND a ****? I'm not sure this was meant to be constructive criticism. What is she supposed to do with that?

"You look like a man."
"I do? O.k. thanks, I'll just rearrange my facial features."

Also, she just assumed that you were trying to pass and that you weren't o.k. with people just accepting and going about their business. (I don't knwo if that's true, but she shouldn't just assume it."

[Kathy Smith]

I think Allie might have a good point. I doubt if you would have been invited to a girly night out if she'd been uncomfortable around you. She doesn't appear to have been upset at all previously. It's very possible that she's telling the truth and that it's her daughter who was the uncomfortable one. Those comments may well have been made in private, without thinking that they may get back to you. That's why you got a warning, she didn't want to hurt you and she knew that her daughter's comments would hurt. Perhaps you should just let this wash over; put it down to experience and carry on regardless!

[Foxglove]

Don't be soooo vulnerable/sensitive/insecure. There are 6 Billion people in this god-forsaken world. Fast-forward 100 yrs from now. Will anyone remember you? Anyone care what happened one winter day in January, 2012? I doubt it...unless you become mad talented overnight and suddenly win the Pulitzer or Nobel or other some such Pa Rize. If you're like me and true Fame is remote. Relax. BE who you are. Morals are Relative and change with the weather, from an Historical time frame. Awww... don't let anyone make you feel bad pretty baby! Givem both barrels back! See how They like it! Then laugh. ;-)

Annaliese, excuse me if I can't go along with this argument. True, 100 years from now nobody's going to remember me or be concerned about what's happening to me now. But I'm not living 100 years from now. I'm living today, and what happens today does affect me. As the great man said, "We are so small between the stars, so large against the sky."

I agree we shouldn't be so vulnerable/sensitive/insecure--and I'm preaching to myself here, because I've always been all of those things. But I tell myself, life is so short. Why get hung up on nasty people and the things they say? There's much better things to think about, a much greater need to go forward and try to be all the things I want to be. No need to think about 100 years from now. Think about right now instead.

I will say, too, that I tend to disagree with those on this thread who are trying to make a case for the woman's remarks being "constructive criticism". I think her remarks were far too blunt and harsh to be viewed as constructive. If she's truly a friend and trying to be helpful, she could have been far more diplomatic than that.

Annabelle

[Kristy_K]

It so sad to hear about people acting that way. I also don't believe it was "constructive criticism". I would also guess that you was very happy when you meet her and she isn't a happy person on the inside. So she had to try to make herself feel better by trying to hurt you. I hope it didn't work.

There will always be people who try to give you negatives to take home with you. I myself don't have room for them in my house. To many clothes I guess.

I also live in the Midwest and open toes shoes are not just for ****s. I know GGs that wears them all of the time and I know they are not ****s. But I don't recommend wearing them in the snow.

Hugs,
Kristy

[Julia Welch]

I never put sugar on anything so here's some reality ... If you put your hand into a hornets nest chances are you'll be stung ... I look like a man dressed in womens clothes wearing a wig and lipstick and so do you ... we are men with mens bodies no matter how some of us "pad" them out ... this is fact.

[whowhatwhen]

Wait a sec, is this you?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?151198-Which-Hairstyle&highlight=


Going by that picture I think she was just being mean for the sake of being mean.

Why else would she bring up the shoe/**** bit?
That doesn't even come close to making sense, why would anyone normal bring that up?

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

Wow!!!! Can you say cat fight. Sorry she felt it necessary to be so damn blunt, no tact there. I for one think you look wonderful and your wife is obviously accepting so who really gives a crap about her opinion.

[RADER]

There was a full moon the other day, and a big solar flair on the sun; so chock
it up as a cosmic event. Double barrels are for weddings, not to knock you down with.
She knows who you are, so she can say those bad things out of jealousy. I bet down deep
she thinks that you look better than her. She just might resent that.
Good luck and keep smiling.
Rader

[BLUE ORCHID]

You do know that you just can't fix Stupid!!!

[marlaNYC]

there's nothing wrong with criticism, but to be so vitriolic about it? even if she can't pull her punches, she should at least know how to be constructive with her thoughts. sounds like you were the target/outlet for some larger issues in her life.

[Eryn]

Well, you did ask, and the way this was set up maximized the chance of a negative outcome. "Elizabeth" was told that she was going to meet a transgendered person and then put in close social proximity with you for an extended time. It's a bit like being told the ending of a mystery novel and then being able to select among the clues based upon that knowledge as you read. Knowing the spoilers, the outcome is obvious!

We all (GGs included) have a few masculine features. I have a very good friend who is definitely a GG, but if we were to *tell* "Elizabeth" that this person was TG she would be able to "tell that she was male" immediately. "Elizabeth" would note her height (5'10"), shoes (11), deep voice, facial features, and throat contours as obvious giveaways that she was really male. She would also be completely wrong!

It is my belief the both "Elizabeth" and her mother were in the wrong in this case. Even if you _think_ something negative there is no reason to slap another person in the face with it. Being frank with an eye to helping someone is one thing, being frank just to be cruel is another. I would rethink my relationship with those people.

Their fashion sense is also a bit suspect. Your pin and clothes are fine. Some of them are certainly "vintage" but that is a very nice fashionable look in itself. If open toed shoes are verboten then about half the GGs in SoCal are making fashion faux pas as I type this.

I also happen to know someone else, a very perceptive person, who has met you more than once and hasn't mentioned your gender at all. The last time she met you you were wearing the pin you pictured. After we parted she mentioned how much she liked that pin and how unique it was.

Hugs, Eryn

[Laura912]

Am a bit late coming to this. Remember that in order for someone to hurt you, you have to give them some degree of worth. If they have high worth to you, then what they say can really hurt...e.g. best friend or SO. On the other hand, if they have little worth to you, their words get lost on the breeze. So did this person have such great worth to you that she could hurt you that much? Obviously you were hurt, but should she have been able to? Next time you see her, give her a peck on the cheek, smile, and walk away...with maybe a little extra swing in the walk. ;)
Laura

[Sammy777]

I thkink theat other woman was jealous--felt threatened by your good looks.


I'm of the same opinion as Jennifer,
it might be that her daughter liked the idea, but her mother didn't want her to be associated with you, or she might have commented to her mother that you look more a woman than her ???


"She [The teenage daughter] said that anyone with half a brain would know you were a man immediately,"
Joan, What part of the above statement would lead you to believe the daughter liked the idea or in any way wanted to be associated with the OP?



This woman must be very insecure with her own being to have gone to such lengths to take you apart piece by piece.
She was probably jealous you wore yourself better than she does.

Why is it anytime a GG offers an opinion [mean spirited or otherwise] that is not in line with the majority here she must be doing this because she feels her femininity is being threatened or is jealous of how good you look?

Come on, Seriously are we gonna go there again?!?
I think it's time self serving fantasies like these be laid to rest already.

And I have but 2 things to say to the OP on this matter.
1) If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
2) Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Looking at your pics (which are excellent btw...you look great),

I'd have to say it was the antique pin that got you smacked.. gorgeous yes, but i'd say it ages you 20 years...(meow)..

[lingerieLiz]

I have to agree with Sammy777 that you need to listen. Most of us here don't pass, but get by because no one looks or cares. We get noticed by teen girls because they are checking out what everyone is wearing. When we interact a lot of people are gracious/don't care and find nice things to say. Take the critisystems and change how you dress and how you present yourself.

[Delila]

Some people are hurtfull and there's nothing you can do about it except ignore them. You friend's daughter shouldn't have said what she said and your friend shouldn't have repeated it.

And just to pick at one point, open toed shoes are very common in my area so her daughter fails as a fashion expert.

I would agree but for the fact that when most of us are being catty we have the courtesy to keep it between girls. I am sorry that you had to deal with such a bitchy woman persephone some people just need to make themselves feel better by making the rest of us feel terrible in the process.

[Nicole Erin]

If they know you as a guy normally, it is gonna alter their perception of you.

Also, looking at the pics of the hair, well to me you don't look so bad. I mean honestly, if I saw you in person passing on the street I would probably just take you for being a woman.

With dressing as an "old lady", so what if you do? I mean you are a bit more mature and you dress age appropriate.

You say that when you go out dressed, people don't stare or make remarks. That means that at least you do not look ridiculous. Unless someone looks weird, they do not really get noticed... Not always but most times even if someone sees a TG and knows she is TG, people will be polite enough to not run their mouths.
The ones who do insist on being rude are the ones with the problems. Sometimes people at work kind of turn their noses up at me but they are the same ones who are not known for their manners in the first place.

That woman who made rude comments just had problems with you being TG. She is not worth worrying about.

How old is Elizabeth? Sounds to me like she is some young woman and they tend to be more critical.

[TxKimberly]

Wow - ouch. Not easy to hear I'm sure. I wonder if I would want to hear such an honest and candid appraisal of myself? I think maybe I just wont ask anyone . . . LOL

[Joann Smith]

Wow - ouch. Not easy to hear I'm sure. I wonder if I would want to hear such an honest and candid appraisal of myself? I think maybe I just wont ask anyone . . . LOL

Kimberly...really? ...Now if someone said that about you... it really would not be a "honest appraisal ' now would it ?.. That heffa was just being mean...

If someone had said somthing like to me ..."We would have had a missunderstanding "...as the late Bernie Mack put it..

Joann

[StarrOfDelite]

I am curious what the OP was expecting to hear? It seems to me that the conventional ethic in the crossdressing world is for us to wildly overpraise each other with sycophantic "You are so beautiful" compliments. In my opinion the truth is that few of us come close to blending anonymously, let alone passing for a woman in an "up-close-and-personal" situation with a genetic woman. I can look at myself in the mirror and point out about $15,000 of cosmetic surgery that I would need to pass semi-convincingly, and that doesn't even begin to address items such as voice and mannerisms. With all due respect to Persephone, I think that too many false compliments sometimes lull CD's into a false sense of passibility. I posted links to "******* or Hemale?" photo quizzes a few weeks ago, and even with those carefully arranged and retouched photos of surgically enhanced individuals, Reine got about 80% right, so why should anyone expect that they are going to convey an impression of femininity to a genetic woman after two hours of conversation across a restaurant table?

Having said that, I think that the friend who delivered the critique got carried away once she got started and crossed the line into rudeness. I'm sure it was a brutal experience, and I sympathize with Persephone.

As a "how many angels on the head of a pin" observation, I wonder what the result would have been if it had been the friend's son instead of daughter who met Persephone? Women in my experience tend to look at people much more critically than men.

[Eryn]

I am curious what the OP was expecting to hear? It seems to me that the conventional ethic in the crossdressing world is for us to wildly overpraise each other with sycophantic "You are so beautiful" compliments....

This is not limited to the crossdressing world! GGs engage in the same behavior. Even if asked, it would be impolite for a GG to be directly critical of another to her face. We, and they, concentrate on the positive and leave the negative unstated.

Now, there are polite ways to be critical. As a seller of cosmetics, the woman doing the criticizing in this case could easily have said "I have a couple of makeup tricks that would help to better accentuate your femininity." This would have been a socially acceptable way of her being critical as well as probably selling some product! In the case of clothes they do something similar. She'd say something like "I don't think that your top is flattering your figure. Perhaps something in a solid color would be better."

If nothing good can be said, GGs compliment some convenient item, such as that gorgeous pin!

My opinion is that something else is going on with this friend that goes beyond normal social interaction.

[Debglam]

My opinion is that something else is going on with this friend that goes beyond normal social interaction.

Mine too, as I posted earlier. The OP DID NOT ask this woman for her opinion of her appearance. She had lunch with this woman and her daughter, and then called her afterwards. This is the quote:


While waiting for my spouse I went out to the car and called her. After a couple of moments of chit-chat I said "I'd like to know what Elizabeth had to say after lunch Monday."

She said, "Are you sure you want to ask that?"

[Play foreboding music here] I said, "Sure, I want to ask that."
Persephone.

Now if I had heard this I might have expected something like "my daughter doesn't like you" or "she had a terrible time" etc. NOT some tactless attack on my appearance.

Frankly, even if the OP had gone to this woman and asked for a brutally honest opinion of her appearance, the woman's response was still out of line.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If a person meets a crossdresser at lunch, and is asked "what do you have to say about it"? 100 out of 100 times the answer will be about the cross-dressers appearance.

That's not say the comment wasn't mean, it was, but that's the way comments go...i'm sure that girl would be laughing at all of us if she know we were still talking about her comments...