Stuck "In Between" [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

WsprsOnTheWind

01-24-2012, 10:41 PM

sissystephanie

01-24-2012, 10:56 PM

Yes, I do go to a Spa and I get both a manicure and a pedicure every two weeks. But I am still a man, even though I have painted nails and wear lingerie as underwear. I also wear a skirt and top almost every day. But that does not change my gender! I have no desire to be a female, I just like to dress like one, and have been doing it for over 60 years!!

Karren H

01-24-2012, 10:56 PM

Yeah... That's the way I feel.... Be nice if I could just stay in one or the other... Either one... I'm really not that picky!!!

Marleena

01-24-2012, 11:06 PM

Do many/most CD's feel they are stuck in between genders? I saw this mentioned by a few on another thread and it made me curious.

You could get so many different answers on this one!

If you put GM's that only like to partially dress enfemme to the other extreme > TS that identify only as women, I think we are all over the place in between. Only the TS should probably know exactly where they fit. In my case I prefer female mode at about 80% although I probably only achieve 50% due to family and marriage commitments. Hope that makes sense.:)

Debglam

01-24-2012, 11:16 PM

Do many/most CD's feel they are stuck in between genders? I saw this mentioned by a few on another thread and it made me curious.

This stuff is SOOOO complicated! As I get a better handle on who and what I am, I would say that I am NOT stuck between genders but I am actually BOTH genders, or at least comfortable in both genders.

Intertwined

01-24-2012, 11:19 PM

I envy guys in some ways. You CD's aren't going to appreciate/understand this one...but they don't have to wear make up, get nails done, wear shoes/clothes that are uncomfortable. They get up take a shower, throw on deodorant, brush teeth, comb hair and out the door. Hey, maybe I got stuck in the wrong gender now that I think about it, lol.

Actually I do understand, I'm one of the 50/50s, right down the middle of the road, I took one of those tests, here are the results, that in my opinion were 100% accurate.

Your COGIATI result value is: -85 Which means that you fall within the following category:
COGIATI classification THREE, ANDROGYNE

What this means is that the Combined Gender Identity And Transsexuality Inventory has classified your internal gender identity to be essentially androgynous, both male and female at the same time, or possibly neither. In some cultures in history, you would be considered to be a third sex, independent of the polarities of masculine or feminine. Your gender issues are intrinsic to your construction, and you will most likely find your happiness playing with expressing both genders as you feel like it.

Bonnie Lawrence

01-24-2012, 11:32 PM

This stuff is SOOOO complicated! As I get a better handle on who and what I am, I would say that I am NOT stuck between genders but I am actually BOTH genders, or at least comfortable in both genders.

This is where I am, also: both genders. There are times when I like to be one or the other.

JessHaust

01-25-2012, 12:18 AM

Thank you for this thread. It has been most enlightening. I took all the tests here. I am not a believer in putting people in boxes based on a few questions, and still don't. But the questions in the COGIATI test really made me think. It rated me 95 class 3, Androgyne. And i'm very confortable with that.
This is what I love most about this forum, you can always leran something for everyone here.

ReineD

01-25-2012, 12:24 AM

Have a look at Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Scale (for MtFs) developed in the mid 1960s, from Type 1 male identity, to Type 6 female identity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale

KellyJameson

01-25-2012, 12:33 AM

My essence would have been better expressed in female form but the paradox is that this essence, my energy that people feel subconsciously in my presence would not have "become" if I had been born female. I'm feminine because I was born in a male body so I do not feel stuck as much as appreciate the irony. God is a trickster so I must learn to be a magician.

It is interesting on this forum to experience " feel " the varying degrees of the masculine/feminine energies in the words from the men who post. With some they have a very strong masculine presence and others have a very strong feminine energy but most are somewhere in the middle. Of course this is abstract and subjective but thought I would share it anyway. You always see this energy expressed in long term intimate relationships to create a power balance, everyone falls somewhere on a line between two opposite poles.

Vickie_CDTV

01-25-2012, 02:46 AM

I am also a level 3 "androgyne". I don't see myself as between genders, I am just a male with an extra bit of femininity I express once in a great while. I look and sound like an ordinary cis male most of the time (except for the lack of facial and body hair, but hey that is my business and I am just advertising :) )

JessicaM1985

01-25-2012, 07:28 AM

Thank you Jillleanne for those links. Apparently, I'm 47% female. Basically confirmed what I already knew. I'm not stuck, so much as I am both. It drives me insane sometimes that I can't be just one. Life would make SO much more sense if I were either just male, or I was just transsexual. But I'm neither. I have to have my male side in addition to my feminine side, or I will be miserable. Yet not having a clear, single gender confuses me, thus making me miserable. Perhaps in that sense, yes I'm stuck. :/

moondog

01-25-2012, 07:45 AM

Yeah, I'm definately "in between" right now and have no clue where I'm going...yet.

AndreaCD1963

01-25-2012, 08:07 AM

The
COMBINED GENDER IDENTITY AND TRANSSEXUALITY INVENTORY
(COGIATI)

Your COGIATI result value is: 110 Which means that you fall within the following category:
COGIATI classification THREE, ANDROGYNE

What this means is that the Combined Gender Identity And Transsexuality Inventory has classified your internal gender identity to be essentially androgynous, both male and female at the same time, or possibly neither. In some cultures in history, you would be considered to be a third sex, independent of the polarities of masculine or feminine. Your gender issues are intrinsic to your construction, and you will most likely find your happiness playing with expressing both genders as you feel like it.

SUGGESTIONS FOR ACTION:
Your situation is a little tricky in our current society, but not tremendously so, depending on your geographic location.
The suggestions for your circumstance are not overly complicated.

If you have any comfortability about your gender expression, some slight degree of counseling might well prove helpful. The primary goal would be to make it possible for you to enjoy your gender expressions free from any shame or embarrassment, and to resolve any remaining questions you might have.
As an androgynous being, both genders, and both sexes are natural to your expression. Permanent polarization in either direction might bring significant unhappiness. It is not recommended that you go through a complete transsexual transformation. You might find a partial transformation of value, if you find yourself more attracted overall to the feminine. You are more likely a transgenderist, than a transsexual. It is recommended that you recognize that your gender issues are real, but that extreme action regarding them should be viewed with great caution.
If you have not already, consider joining any of the thousands of groups devoted to gender play of various varieties. There is literally a world of friends to discover who share your interests. There are also publications, vacations, and activities that would expand your gender play.

Thank you for using the Combined Gender Identity And Transsexuality Inventory.

linda allen

01-25-2012, 08:21 AM

Do many/most CD's feel they are stuck in between genders? I saw this mentioned by a few on another thread and it made me curious.

I don't know about "most CDs". I do not feel that I am stuck between genders. I am a male who likes to pretend to be a female from time to time. I suppose just to see what it feels like.

BRANDYJ

01-25-2012, 08:24 AM

Hi Wsprs, The simple answer is no, I don't feel like I'm stuck in the middle. I choose to be in the middle. I like both sides of my gender expression. Would not want to give up either one for the other.

kimdl93

01-25-2012, 08:26 AM

I don't place much weight on the tests for the very reasons you site above. I don't really think a person can be represented accurately by a one dimensional with male and female at the poles. My guess is that there are many dimensions to a personality and that each dimension can reflect characteristics of male and female.

Kaitlyn Michele

01-25-2012, 08:31 AM

There is only one test... Look in the mirror and be honest about yourself...

It's very hard, and it can be quite wrenching, so sadly many people ask the internet by answering ridiculous survey questions(just think about that for a second).....why not just ask a psychic?

Also to the OP... I would urge you to consider that being gender fluid is not about being stuck in the middle gender wise...I've learned over the years that lots of people are quite comfortable with an identity that is gender fluid...so it's not really being stuck..if you can be happy with your gender identity that's a very simple and constructive thing

Unfortunately for gender fluid people, the world is almost exclusively binary gendered..... It creates a situation where people that don't live as one gender usually end up being outsiders and being marginalized by society...and so gender fluid learn how to cope in that world and can feel stuck as an outsider..

DonnaT

01-25-2012, 08:46 AM

Stuck? Since this is where I like it, then I would say firmly in the middle, not stuck.

Rachel Flowers

01-25-2012, 09:15 AM

Like many replies already posted, I'm in the middle but don't feel "stuck". Male mode isn't intensely macho and girl mode isn't road to transition. Now that I've found acceptance in myself and my wife I'm comfy where I am thank you!

And I love taking tests - I perform personality tests on others for a living - but all these self-reported gender identity tests are very low in "validity" - i.e., are they actually measuring what they purport to measure?

suchacutie

01-25-2012, 10:40 AM

I think I was stuck between genders before we found Tina. Tina has allowed me to separate my gendered selves and I think I understand both of me much better! Before it was a mix and a muddle and a bit confusing.

The average might be in the middle, but I'm now much more at either end :)

Kaitlyn Michele

01-25-2012, 10:46 AM

Anna Lorree

01-25-2012, 10:52 AM

Have a look at Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Scale (for MtFs) developed in the mid 1960s, from Type 1 male identity, to Type 6 female identity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale

I put more stock in the Benjamin Scale than I do the COGIATI test, though I will admit to having taken it many times. On the Benjamin Scale, I am somewhere between a 3 and a 4. I very much see aspects of myself in both, so I will call myself a 3.5 there. As for COGIATI, it usually places me as Androgynous with the same advice listed here for such. A few times it has labelled me as a "borderline Transsexual". When you compare the two, that actually isn't far from where I rank on the Benjamin Scale, so I don't really gripe about either. I DO wish I could just go to one end of the spectrum or the other, exist as either a content man or as a content woman without confusion. It would be far easier...

Anna

Marleena

01-25-2012, 10:59 AM

Have a look at Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Scale (for MtFs) developed in the mid 1960s, from Type 1 male identity, to Type 6 female identity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale

Hmm.. never saw this one before! I'm a definite TYPE 4 on this scale, and possibly a 5. Sheesh..I give up on placing myself anywhere. I'm just me, and enjoying myself.:)

WsprsOnTheWind

01-25-2012, 11:47 AM

There are some good points and replies here. I must say that I am unfamiliar with the term cisgender and will need to do some research on it.,

docrobbysherry

01-25-2012, 12:01 PM

NO, I hate for anyone to touch my feet and I hate having my nails ground on. I wish I never had to go again but my nails look horrid if I don't keep them done. I just waited a month before going to get my nails filled in b/c I dread going so bad.

I envy guys in some ways. You CD's aren't going to appreciate/understand this one...but they don't have to wear make up, get nails done, wear shoes/clothes that are uncomfortable. They get up take a shower, throw on deodorant, brush teeth, comb hair and out the door. Hey, maybe I got stuck in the wrong gender now that I think about it, lol.
I'm with U on the feet and finger nails, Whispers! Leave mine ALONE!

And, u don't have tell me how lucky I am to be able to get out of the house in drab clean, dressed, and ready in a 1/2 hour or less! Because I spend over an hour just preparing to START becoming Sherry!

U forgot shaving! We don't have to do THAT either! Never mind not shaving our arms, legs, pits, etc. Some of us don't even shave our faces! Lol!

~Joanne~

01-25-2012, 12:18 PM

I am also not stuck. I enjoy both sides of me and they both make me a whole person. Some days I may explore the one side more than the other because it is new to me but at the end of the day, it's still me :)

WsprsOnTheWind

01-25-2012, 01:01 PM

Ugh, Sherry, you are right. I did forget to include that dreaded chore of shaving.

carhill2mn

01-25-2012, 01:32 PM

I don't consider myself "stuck" between genders. I just am one sometimes and the other at other times.

Anna Lorree

01-25-2012, 01:58 PM

There are some good points and replies here. I must say that I am unfamiliar with the term cisgender and will need to do some research on it.,

Cisgender means being happy as your birth sex/gender combination.

Anna

stacycoral

01-25-2012, 02:15 PM

Have a look at Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Scale (for MtFs) developed in the mid 1960s, from Type 1 male identity, to Type 6 female identity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale

Cisgender means being happy as your birth sex/gender combination.

Anna

This stuff is SOOOO complicated! As I get a better handle on who and what I am, I would say that I am NOT stuck between genders but I am actually BOTH genders, or at least comfortable in both genders.

wow, after looking at the Benjamin scale i would have to say i 'm at 2.5, that was insightful. Thanks for the thread is been good reading.

Joanne f

01-25-2012, 02:30 PM

There was a time when i thought that i was half and half so in a way that is like being stuck in the middle yet there is no true middle as you only have the physical bits of one or the other so it is like trying to balance the physical side of you with the mental side and the more that you can balance the physical side to match the mental side the more you will pull away from that "stuck in the middle"

Nichola

01-25-2012, 02:40 PM

I guess you're talking about the 'Given up looking for answers...' thread I posted where I said I feel stuck slap bang between the genders.
It's just how I feel I suppose, I like a lot of things about being male yet I so need my girl time it's unreal. It's so confusing, but these days I'm intent on enjoying it because I'll never know the reasons why.:doh:

ReineD

01-25-2012, 02:51 PM

The
COMBINED GENDER IDENTITY AND TRANSSEXUALITY INVENTORY
(COGIATI)

The Cogiati Test is not meant to be a diagnostic tool, according to the transwoman who developed it, Jennifer Diane Reitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Diane_Reitz#cite_note-tsroadmapcogiati-6).

Ms. Reitz has no background in gender research, she is a writer/webcomic author/computer programmer. The test emphasizes stereotypical gendered behavior, and it is a fun online game for transgenders wishing to validate who they are.

Debglam

01-25-2012, 03:00 PM

that's an interesting point too..

as someone that feel's very binary, and had to change my gender role or literally feel like killing myself..the idea of going back and forth, of having 2 genders makes no sense to me at all...i can't comprehend it and yet many people feel that way as the previous post mentions..

i find myself wondering if that's exactly how a cisgender person feels about people like me....

I think that is how the cis-world feel about all of us in the trans world. At least, IMHO, we have common aspects that we can base our understanding of each other on. Again, IMHO, I think the level of GID or whatever you want to call it comes in varying degrees. For a middle pather like me, getting to fully present as a woman part time seems to resolve the discomfort. A greater degree and I can see where you would have to transition. A lesser degree and maybe underdressing is sufficient. Maybe. . .

carhill2mn

01-25-2012, 03:35 PM

NO, I hate for anyone to touch my feet and I hate having my nails ground on. I wish I never had to go again but my nails look horrid if I don't keep them done. I just waited a month before going to get my nails filled in b/c I dread going so bad.

I envy guys in some ways. You CD's aren't going to appreciate/understand this one...but they don't have to wear make up, get nails done, wear shoes/clothes that are uncomfortable. They get up take a shower, throw on deodorant, brush teeth, comb hair and out the door. Hey, maybe I got stuck in the wrong gender now that I think about it, lol.

IMHO one of the reasons that many of us enjoy CDing is that we can then put on makeup, get our nails done, wear pretty clothes and shoes.

Asche

01-25-2012, 09:01 PM

You CD's aren't going to appreciate/understand this one...but they [=guys] don't have to wear make up, get nails done, wear shoes/clothes that are uncomfortable. ...

IMHO one of the reasons that many of us enjoy CDing is that we can then put on makeup, get our nails done, wear pretty clothes and shoes.

There's a huge difference between "can" and "have to". It's the difference between opportunity and oppression.

One of the (many!) reasons why there's some friction between the CDs and GFs here is that a lot of guys here ignore the distinction.

Asche

01-25-2012, 09:22 PM

I don't think of myself as "in between" because that image implies that people's natures can be put on a line between two poles (i.e., a single dimension), and one is what we think of when we say "male" or "masculine" and the other "female" or "feminine." I think that's a ridiculous oversimplification of how people really are.

I know that I don't fit into this. In some ways, I'm very "masculine", in others, quite "feminine", though which is which seems to depend on who's looking at me (not to mention the phase of the moons of Jupiter :) ), yet I'm the same person. Basically, I just don't fit. And after seeing how cramped and uncomfortable those boxes are that people keep trying to fit themselves (and me) into, I'm glad I don't fit. It frees me to wander off that stupid masculine-feminine axis out along directions that the authors of that axis don't even know exist and have lots of kinds of fun that "everybody" says don't exist.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-25-2012, 09:26 PM

There's a huge difference between "can" and "have to". It's the difference between opportunity and oppression.

One of the (many!) reasons why there's some friction between the CDs and GFs here is that a lot of guys here ignore the distinction.

Right, for CD's getting to do all of that is an adventure but for women it's expected. She either expects it of herself or society does.

Intertwined

01-25-2012, 10:59 PM

I didn't go to the internet to find out what I am... I've known that for over 20 years, I went to the net to help me understand it... AND I still don't...

Even here on this forum, just like in life, I am a square peg in a round hole...

The Very Question itself seams invalid to me... Stuck "In Between", implying 2 Genders, Masculine/Feminine, Black/White, 1's / 0's, I don't believe its a Binary.

Even the most Masculine figure I can think of " John Wayne " I'm sure had a touch of femininity somewhere...

Same for the opposite end of the " Spectrum ", Marilyn Monroe had a masculine side...

With black at one end of the Spectrum and white at the other, there is an infinite number of colors " In Between ", Don't get STUCK on the Black & White

Amanda22

01-25-2012, 11:00 PM

Hey, maybe I got stuck in the wrong gender now that I think about it, lol.

This made me smile! Thanks for the laugh! You can cross dress if you like, you know. We'll totally understand.

Kaitlyn Michele

01-26-2012, 12:13 AM

I think that is how the cis-world feel about all of us in the trans world. At least, IMHO, we have common aspects that we can base our understanding of each other on. Again, IMHO, I think the level of GID or whatever you want to call it comes in varying degrees. For a middle pather like me, getting to fully present as a woman part time seems to resolve the discomfort. A greater degree and I can see where you would have to transition. A lesser degree and maybe underdressing is sufficient. Maybe. . .

It's fair to say that any person born and socialized as male that goes against that socialization shares a common bond.. We know what its like to not feel like one of the guys for sure...we know that to resolve discomfort we are compelled to break the mold ..

But the whole idea of going back and forth makes no sense to me at all as a ts person...I can't internalize it ...i just accept it as a part of the diversity of human nature..

NathalieX66

01-26-2012, 12:25 AM

But the whole idea of going back and forth makes no sense to me at all as a ts person...I can't internalize it ...i just accept it as a part of the diversity of human nature..

Kaitlyn, you see gender as a fixed binary....you are either male or female. It's like the old computer programming code 0 or 1....011011010100011111.
Most people fit the binary: they are born male or female. Transsexuals also fit the binary, they just happen to not fit the binary they were born in.

Some of us, like myself, are not happy with the constraints of the gender we were born with. I could go on HRT any day, and be happy....but it's not me. It would involve killing someone.........that being my male half, whom I happen to like being. you may be different from me, but in my case, the other end of the rainbow is no better than the end of the rainbow I'm at now. So I just go with the flow.

So I'm non-binary....also called being "gender fluid".

sandra-leigh

01-26-2012, 01:18 AM

I do not think I would say that I feel particularly "stuck" in-between. I am in-between, but I am not living to any laundry list or particular ideal; I am just living the way that works for me. I do not expect that what works for me now will necessarily be what works for me later; I could go either way (but overall tendency these days is to more female.) Because I am not guided by a goal other than "what works", there isn't much feeling of being "stuck": if I were feeling "stuck" I would work towards alleviating it.

I would, though, say that there are a few areas that I'm still feeling a bit stuck, such as in not wearing blatantly obvious clothes to work. There were times in the past that I felt this quite intensely; HRT reduced that intensity a lot.

Aprilrain

01-26-2012, 01:38 AM

I envy guys in some ways. You CD's aren't going to appreciate/understand this one...but they don't have to wear make up, get nails done, wear shoes/clothes that are uncomfortable. They get up take a shower, throw on deodorant, brush teeth, comb hair and out the door. Hey, maybe I got stuck in the wrong gender now that I think about it, lol.

Woman do this too, haven't you ever heard of hippies?
Seriously though, my ex almost never wears make up, gets her nails done or wears uncomfortable shoes and why should she? She's a stay at home mom. She's not a slob either she dresses nicely and cares for her hair and skin. Once I get rid of this beard shadow for good I probably won't wear to much makeup either, just a little eye makeup which I don't see as a burden at all.
Anyway if you think a suit and tie isn't uncomfortable then you clearly have never worn one!

Debglam

01-26-2012, 12:41 PM

Anyway if you think a suit and tie isn't uncomfortable then you clearly have never worn one!

Amen, A-flipping-MEN!!! Add to that the "huge" selection of choices in color I get to make everyday. . .grey, dark blue, black, dark green. :sad:

sandra-leigh

01-26-2012, 12:43 PM

Anyway if you think a suit and tie isn't uncomfortable then you clearly have never worn one!

I changed careers so I wouldn't have to wear a tie.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-26-2012, 01:07 PM

Amen, A-flipping-MEN!!! Add to that the "huge" selection of choices in color I get to make everyday. . .grey, dark blue, black, dark green. :sad:

There are shops in the mall that sell suits in bright colors so I know color options are out there. Its just that there is a stereotype that goes with wearing these brightly colored male clothes.

whowhatwhen

01-26-2012, 01:25 PM

I'm sure there are, but for some reason people have decided that they can tell others how to dress.
Personally, I would love to see people being more expressive but dress codes seem to exist to keep everyone in a kind of gray emotionless blob.

Debglam

01-26-2012, 01:59 PM

There are shops in the mall that sell suits in bright colors so I know color options are out there. Its just that there is a stereotype that goes with wearing these brightly colored male clothes.

You are correct but I can't wear them in my line of work. I've taken to wearing some brighter shirts and ties on occasion and I still get comments from the "gender police" when I wear pink. Oh well. . .

WsprsOnTheWind

01-26-2012, 02:08 PM

Typically women's business attire is the darker colors too.

ReineD

01-26-2012, 02:36 PM

Typically women's business attire is the darker colors too.

This is true. Look at women's suits at Macy's Department store. The majority of the 200 results are gray, black, and tan. True, there are a few reds and one fushia, but these are not colors the average office worker would wear, although she may wear such colors at a social event:

http://www1.macys.com/shop/womens/apparel/suits-suit-separates?id=39096&edge=hybrid#!fn=sortBy%3DORIGINAL%26productsPerPag e%3D100&!qvp=iqvp

Do men still wear ties? :p

Anna Lorree

01-26-2012, 02:42 PM

Do men still wear ties? :p

Only when I have to, which is pretty much for job interviews, weddings, funerals, and when I wear my dress uniform for work.

Anna

LeaP

01-26-2012, 02:58 PM

Do men still wear ties? :p

Well, *I* do, but I've never applied the term to myself.

Lea

Debglam

01-26-2012, 05:52 PM

This is true. Look at women's suits at Macy's Department store. The majority of the 200 results are gray, black, and tan. True, there are a few reds and one fushia, but these are not colors the average office worker would wear, although she may wear such colors at a social event:

http://www1.macys.com/shop/womens/apparel/suits-suit-separates?id=39096&edge=hybrid#!fn=sortBy%3DORIGINAL%26productsPerPag e%3D100&!qvp=iqvp

My GG colleagues at work quite often wear LBD, sheath dresses, etc. instead of suits, but you are right - they are usually in pretty conservative colors. I don't want to take the thread too far afield, and maybe it IS the trans in me, but they do get to accessorize - colorful scarves, cute jewelry, and awesome shoes to kind of break-up the dreariness of the colors! :daydreaming: Maybe I should just wear my bright red pumps with my three piece suit, instead of wingtips sometime???:heehee:

Do men still wear ties? :p

You have a mean streak in ya girl! :tongueout

Debby

ReineD

01-26-2012, 05:58 PM

You have a mean streak in ya girl! :tongueout

Yes. I know. :dom:

:D

AnitaH

01-26-2012, 08:10 PM

Yeah, I'm definately "in between" right now and have no clue where I'm going...yet.

This expresses exactly where I'm at right now. Stuck/confused

AnitaH

Suzette Muguet de Mai

01-26-2012, 08:34 PM

I am confused and unsure of my gender. I do not consider myself as male or female because I simply do not know. I do not have a relationship because I have no wish for any person to share my life. I have no children either.
I did the test a few months ago.
Your COGIATI result value is: 265 Which means that you fall within the following category:
COGIATI classification FOUR, PROBABLE TRANSSEXUAL

All that this test did was cause me more anxiety.

NathalieX66

01-26-2012, 09:12 PM

COGIATI test means zilch. Zero. Nothing. It isn't even a legitimate test within the medical community. It's bogus. fake.
People are far more complicated and complex, and the scientific and psychiatric tests are far mor sophisticated than this. A guy can like rugby and till prefer sheer pink lingeree, and be heterosexual, and like getting pedicures in any color.

ReineD

01-27-2012, 01:09 AM

Your COGIATI result value is: 265 Which means that you fall within the following category:
COGIATI classification FOUR, PROBABLE TRANSSEXUAL

All that this test did was cause me more anxiety.

I agree with NathalieX66. Please read my post #42. There's more about what the Cogiati test is all about, together with who devised it (with link) here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?167950-Stuck-quot-In-Between-quot&p=2731576&viewfull=1#post2731576

Kaitlyn Michele

01-27-2012, 09:15 AM

Kaitlyn, you see gender as a fixed binary....you are either male or female. It's like the old computer programming code 0 or 1....011011010100011111.
Most people fit the binary: they are born male or female. Transsexuals also fit the binary, they just happen to not fit the binary they were born in.

Some of us, like myself, are not happy with the constraints of the gender we were born with. I could go on HRT any day, and be happy....but it's not me. It would involve killing someone.........that being my male half, whom I happen to like being. you may be different from me, but in my case, the other end of the rainbow is no better than the end of the rainbow I'm at now. So I just go with the flow.

So I'm non-binary....also called being "gender fluid".

I agree...I understand this..

I guess what i tried to say is that when we all communicate, we are all talking our own books as they say on the trading floor..

as a transsexual the idea of gender blending sounds weird to me... why would anyone want that...and i was comparing that feeling to what a gg or gm might think about me...

i can't imagine being any other way than myself! and neither can you!! LOL

the huge complicating factor is that many ts people start off wearing clothes and getting told they are cd's...many gender queer people start to feel like they are female before realizing they are not..etc etc..

it makes it really difficult to communicate sometimes....but i think it can be agreed that whatever and whoever you are, it should be a goal to NOT feel "stuck"..

suchacutie

01-27-2012, 10:35 AM

I have to smile at those who think a suit and tie are uncomfortable. It sounds like the same discussion that high heels are uncomfortable but necessary. What's so uncomfortable about a tie?

If one buys a suit properly tailored, and a shirt with the correct neck size, a suit can not only be comfortable, but can feel and look terrific! The other day I had a dark blue suit with a purple shirt and a purple and silver tie. Felt and looked terrific in guy mode.

When I got home I put on some sweats and my 4.5 inch heels. Those heels felt terrific too!

So I just don't see the problem swinging back and forth between genders, and in either gender clothes can be just terrific. They just to fit well and present the style that makes you feel great!

:)

ReineD

01-27-2012, 11:17 AM

as a transsexual the idea of gender blending sounds weird to me... why would anyone want that...and i was comparing that feeling to what a gg or gm might think about me...

i can't imagine being any other way than myself!

Yes, and this is a problem with a lot of (not all) marriages. The wife just can't wrap her mind around her husband's need to crossdress. We have ancient, world-wide cultural histories of binary-gender beliefs to overcome. Hopefully schools will be able to introduce gender non-conformity in their sex-ed classes to dispel some of the bias and then the concept won't be so foreign when some of these kids grow up to marry gender non-conforming partners. And the partners themselves will have found a way to accept themselves and therefore not spend years sexualizing the crossdressing, which will make it a lot easier on their spouses. :)

... or am I dreaming in technicolor? :D

Anna Lorree

01-27-2012, 11:20 AM

Yes, and this is a problem with a lot of (not all) marriages. The wife just can't wrap her mind around her husband's need to crossdress. We have ancient, world-wide cultural histories of binary-gender beliefs to overcome. Hopefully schools will be able to introduce gender non-conformity in their sex-ed classes to dispel some of the bias and then the concept won't be so foreign when some of these kids grow up to marry gender non-conforming partners. And the partners themselves will have found a way to accept themselves and therefore not spend years sexualizing the crossdressing, which will make it a lot easier on their spouses. :)

... or am I dreaming in technicolor? :D

What a wonderful world it would be.

Anna

sandra-leigh

01-27-2012, 12:51 PM

What's so uncomfortable about a tie?

It chokes. Some people are sensitive about pressure on some parts of the neck.

Aprilrain

01-27-2012, 12:55 PM

... or am I dreaming in technicolor? :D

yes but dreams are nice.

I have a problem with the thought that transsexualism might be "taught" in a sex ed class. Its not about sex! I have read a collage text book that explains the basics pretty well but it took a whole chapter and if that chapter was even taught in the class that used that book they likely spent a day at best on the subject. Throw in a strong resistance by a small but vocal religious minority in this country against any kind of education of LGBT issues and it a losing battle. Our best bet is the continued positive coverage in the media that has been going on lately. IMO.

ReineD

01-27-2012, 01:09 PM

yes but dreams are nice.

I have a problem with the thought that transsexualism might be "taught" in a sex ed class. Its not about sex! .

I was thinking of a more comprehensive instruction: gender non-conformity as it affects FtM, MtF, and everything from crossdressing, genderqueer, transsexuality, and in between, together with the sexualization of the crossdressing for some people and how repression may cause this, and how self-acceptance may banish it, the feelings of shame associated with gender non-conformity, and the stuggles it takes to overcome internalized transphobia. I would also include a section on homophobia and transphobia in our society.

As to the sexual aspect, it might also be good to include a talk on fetish in general, whether this involves CDing or any other fetish. Oh, and also include a section on the vast array of sexual preferences and how this does or does not correlate to gender identity.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-27-2012, 04:52 PM

Yes, and this is a problem with a lot of (not all) marriages. The wife just can't wrap her mind around her husband's need to crossdress. :) :D

I can wrap my brain around that part of it but he needs to wrap his brain around the fact that it's HIS need and not mine! I want to participate on my own terms not the terms that he wants/expects from me.

Julie1123

01-27-2012, 05:08 PM

I don't feel like I'm stuck in between either. I like being a guy, but I like wearing women's clothes as well.

kristinacd55

01-27-2012, 05:13 PM

I don't feel stuck, but move freely between each gender. AND, I think it's so cool to do it! :)

WsprsOnTheWind

01-27-2012, 05:17 PM

Asche

01-27-2012, 06:56 PM

I didn't really pay attention to age as I've cruised through the threads but I wonder how many that say they are comfortable with gender-fluidity are the ones who have reached middle age and been around long enough to accept who they are as opposed to the younger ones who may still be struggling with it?
I'm not sure if this exactly what you are thinking of, but my impression is that the people who are hung up on gender norms and keeping "masculine" and "feminine" poles apart tend to be older people, whereas the younger folks don't care so much, at least to judge by how they respond to my "non-standard" way of dressing. I also know a few people with non-standard gender identity/presentation/whatever, and they are all in their 20's or younger.

And if the younger people seem to you less comfortable with "gender fluidity," it may also just be that younger people are in general less settled with who and what they are and where they are going. They may just be still trying to figure things out.

As usual, YMMV.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-27-2012, 06:59 PM

And if the younger people seem to you less comfortable with "gender fluidity," it may also just be that younger people are in general less settled with who and what they are and where they are going. They may just be still trying to figure things out.

As usual, YMMV.

This was more of where my line of questioning was going. I really haven't noticed what age range is doing what. I was mostly just posing the question for food for thought.

Acastina

01-27-2012, 09:48 PM

Little boys grow up rough and tumble
Little girls are neat and clean
On the way to man and woman
Some fall in between

Chart the changes, weigh the tears
Look at all the wasted years
Finding what you're going through
Changing my whole point of view

Little boys grow up oh, so manly
Little girls grow as they please
On the way to man and woman
Some just never feel at ease

Chart the changes, weigh the fears
Set aside the wasted years
Changing my whole point of view
Changing the way I look at you

Just a little androgyny
Never brought unwanted progeny
And who's to say what's wrong or right
When somebody draws that line
Another will be right behind
Straddling stereotypes

Little boys grow up tough and cocky
Little girls are soft and nice
On the way to man and woman
Some pay once, and some pay twice

Start the changes, cry the tears
Live up all your precious years
No one can call the shot for you
Just do you true.

–"Androgyny" 1978, mine

judith96

01-27-2012, 11:51 PM

I'd be happy to feel "stuck in between," but I feel more like being torn in half by two opposing self images, neither of which fits into its expected gender role. Forcing myself into a stereotypical male role never "feels right," and I eventually end up expressing my feminine side more fully by dressing to match the stronger side of my personality (femme.) When I look in the mirror fully dressed all that tension melts away and I feel like I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. Of course that can't last for obvious reasons (everyone has to shower eventually, and sooner or later I have to leave the house) so then it's back to the middle until my next crisis of identity.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-28-2012, 05:29 PM

whowhatwhen

01-28-2012, 05:54 PM

I'd counter that it's a relief from society's enforced fake manliness and having to pretend along with the rest of them lest you want to be victimized.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-28-2012, 06:00 PM

I'd counter that it's a relief from society's enforced fake manliness and having to pretend along with the rest of them lest you want to be victimized.

Please explain what you mean by "victimized".

whowhatwhen

01-28-2012, 06:06 PM

Harassment
Insults
Physical violence
Job loss
... Anything

Lots of people are disgusting to anyone that doesn't fit their norms, and as a defense a part of ourselves is locked away from their harm.
I'd like to say that future generations won't have this problem, but those same people are actively working against TG acceptance and calling them out brings cries of religious intolerance.

tl; dr:
Society is doomed, enjoy whatever makes you happy as long as you can.

judith96

01-28-2012, 09:07 PM

Acastina

01-28-2012, 09:52 PM

A repeated theme from CD's is that dressing relieves tension. This leads me to think that by dressing they pretend they are someone else and their problems go away. Is that really a healthy way to deal with things? Also for the CD's that have to dress in some way daily and say it's a form of tension relief that indicates that there is an extremely high tension rate among CD's.

With respect, this is an overly simplistic surmise, with a judgmental edge that is almost accusatory. What you're suggesting is escapism, and that is utterly contrary to my experience, at least. Believe me, whatever problems I have (and everyone has their share) do not fade into the pink fog and disappear. That would be something more akin to schizophrenia or dissociation. People with those severe mental disorders may indeed manifest gender confusion or reversal, but that is not the same thing. So far as anyone knows, crossdressing is not in and of itself a mental disorder; the DSM only treats it as such if it causes significant distress in one's life, such as employment or relationship problems.

The theory also subjects this phenomenon to an authenticity judgment, that dressing is pretending is faking. For many of us, society assigned us at birth to cultural and social roles and norms that feel subjectively inauthentic to us, and we only feel genuinely authentic when dressed and/or presenting as a member of the opposite social gender. That is hardly the same as faking to escape life's difficulties.

Finally, your last sentence inverts the stress-and-tension factor completely, suggesting that we inherently have "extremely high tension rate[s]". I question whether you grasp how powerfully social rejection of what we do can induce anxiety and depression. I made a presentation to a university psychology class about ten years ago, and one of the first comments from an obviously perceptive student was that gender dysphoria sure seems like it would lead to anxiety and depression. We don't dress because we have higher levels of stress than others; we have higher levels of stress because so many of our fellow humans, not feeling this way themselves and lacking empathy for those of us who do, judge us, hate us, and hurt us for wanting to be ourselves.

judith96

01-28-2012, 10:10 PM

For many of us, society assigned us at birth to cultural and social roles and norms that feel subjectively inauthentic to us, and we only feel genuinely authentic when dressed and/or presenting as a member of the opposite social gender.

I can completely identify with this. I hope my last post wasn't too abrasive, I need to work on expressing myself more eloquently.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-28-2012, 10:35 PM

Well, I suppose in my case maybe there is a degree of escapism in it, but what's really unhealthy here? I can look at either one of my arms and see rows of scars from the years where I'd cope with inner turmoil by cutting myself, so on the whole I'd say fleeing to a persona where I feel happy and calm is relatively healthy.

Do you feel that the cutting and inner turmoil was from your inability to accept being a CD?

There was no intention to judge. I am simply trying to learn about a lifestyle that I cannot possible KNOW firsthand. I can only express how I see it from where I am at.

WsprsOnTheWind

01-28-2012, 10:36 PM

We don't dress because we have higher levels of stress than others; we have higher levels of stress because so many of our fellow humans, not feeling this way themselves and lacking empathy for those of us who do, judge us, hate us, and hurt us for wanting to be ourselves.

I understand what you are saying but then I've also seen so many CD's on here say that the dressing relieves stress.

Marleena

01-28-2012, 10:43 PM

I understand what you are saying but then I've also seen so many CD's on here say that the dressing relieves stress.

It definitely does! In my case I've struggled with depression, and just feeling miserable, I was a bear to live with. When I accepted myself as transgender this year I was actually happy for the first time in a long time. My wife noticed a huge change in me. I just never realized repressing it for so many years was causing me emotional issues. Now it all makes sense.

ReineD

01-28-2012, 10:56 PM

I understand what you are saying but then I've also seen so many CD's on here say that the dressing relieves stress.

Wsprs, Acastina is saying that Cders feel the gender norms imposed on them at birth (because of their sex), forced them to live inauthentically. These boys have felt pressure to fit into male gender norms all their lives when they felt different (more feminine)** internally. This is why CDers feel a stress relief when they dress as adults; they feel they can be themselves. This is not the same as using the dressing as an escape mechanism, for example as someone might use alcohol, drugs, gambling, or having affairs.

** I want to quantify "more feminine". This varies between individuals, since there is a wide range between the male/female binary. Some M2F individuals are transsesexuals and feel fully female, while others feel they are more gender fluid. They can be anywhere along the line between the two gender extremes.

Chazity

01-28-2012, 11:16 PM

i feel the same way,its like being two different people

Jenniferathome

01-28-2012, 11:24 PM

No me. I'm all man, even when I'm in a bra and panties, wearing a dress, heels and makeup. I don't think I am a woman when I am dressed.

judith96

01-28-2012, 11:26 PM

No, I've never had problems accepting that I do that. Those incidents were mainly from when I'd transition quickly from a manic episode into depression and really aren't directly tied to my identity issues (although that did happen recently when I was trying to be more "normal," and stopped when I let myself dress as Judith.) I was mainly trying to give an idea of what a truly unhealthy response to stress is in my experience for comparison.

Re: inner turmoil with respect to crossdressing - the problem is that frequently see myself in my mind as a girl, always have, and when I'm under a lot of pressure I look in a mirror and see something different, it's jarring. When I let myself dress to match that self image (not crazy sexy lingerie or anything, usually just plain normal clothes like any real girl would wear around the house and enough of a makeup job to not look completely like a boy as in my forum avatar,) how I look syncs up with what my brain expects and all that tension goes away. Is it healthy? I'm sure that's debatable, but it's a far cry safer than other means I've used to break that kind of tension.

Joanne f

01-29-2012, 07:34 AM

Like Acastina i do not dress to relieve stress , in fact the more i am stressed the less i want to dress, i dress because i enjoy it , if there is any stress from my CDing it comes from some parts of society not understanding me so in a sense you could say that the cding can cause stress more than relieve it for some .

WsprsOnTheWind

01-29-2012, 03:58 PM

Wsprs, Acastina is saying that Cders feel the gender norms imposed on them at birth (because of their sex), forced them to live inauthentically. These boys have felt pressure to fit into male gender norms all their lives when they felt different (more feminine)** internally. This is why CDers feel a stress relief when they dress as adults; they feel they can be themselves. This is not the same as using the dressing as an escape mechanism, for example as someone might use alcohol, drugs, gambling, or having affairs.

** I want to quantify "more feminine". This varies between individuals, since there is a wide range between the male/female binary. Some M2F individuals are transsesexuals and feel fully female, while others feel they are more gender fluid. They can be anywhere along the line between the two gender extremes.

Thanks for clarifying.

jillleanne

01-29-2012, 09:56 PM

The Cogiati Test is not meant to be a diagnostic tool, according to the transwoman who developed it, Jennifer Diane Reitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Diane_Reitz#cite_note-tsroadmapcogiati-6).

Ms. Reitz has no background in gender research, she is a writer/webcomic author/computer programmer. The test emphasizes stereotypical gendered behavior, and it is a fun online game for transgenders wishing to validate who they are.

Oh darn, you beat me to it Reine. lol

Aeron

01-31-2012, 09:15 AM

Do many/most CD's feel they are stuck in between genders? I saw this mentioned by a few on another thread and it made me curious.

I'm feeling that way. Less and less comfortable with presenting myself to the world as male, but not yet confident presenting myelf as female. Gender purgatory, I guess.

Melissa Cross

01-31-2012, 09:44 AM

I don't feel stuck between genders. I'm a genetic male who has a strong feminine side. I've heard the expression "dual gendered" and I think that applies to me, at least in a figurative sense.

candice44

01-31-2012, 10:03 AM

Katyana

01-31-2012, 10:22 AM

What I am, is lucky. Despite the struggles that go along with this ride we have taken through life, I, because of who I am, have a perspective that many unfortunately will never experience. I have learned so much, gained understanding, and taken account for the silent whispers in male mode of "Are you ready to go YET?" Not many of us get the chance to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.....and this my friends, is a walk I would have never wanted to miss!

kimmy p

01-31-2012, 01:24 PM

Yes. Nut not in the terms of stuck. I am androgynous. And I like myself this way. I prefer to believe that I have the best of both genders. Of course I may also present the worst of each gender. But we won't talk about that.

Acastina

01-31-2012, 07:34 PM

Genifer Teal

01-31-2012, 08:29 PM

More often I've been hearing the comment I look much better presenting as a woman. On the surface this is a compliment, but since I do not present that way at work, where does this leave me? I think "in-between genders" describes me to a "T" (pardon the pun). I do not believe in the word stuck because I have the power to change things - yet I am afraid to move further forward and not willing to go back. I just need to remember I have the power to change my situation, therefore I am not stuck! :-)