Gotta Love the Academics.

[SandraAbsent]

In a face book discussion started today, a very good FTM friend of mine posted this and I found it very interesting. Maybe some feed back here would create a great conversation.

His post was...

Something my professor said last night in my queer studies class is not sitting well with me. First of all, she gave her opinion that transgender individuals are not real women or men and she believes there should be a third gender identity for them. She also believes that transgender men transition to take part in and benefit from male privilege. That if it werent for gender oppression, people wouldn't transition and that it is society who makes transgender people feel the need to "mutilate" their bodies. I think people are entitled to their opinions, but when you are a professor spewing inaccuracies to your classroom and they are taking notes on this very typical lesbian rhetoric, I have a problem with that. So, last night in my anger that had been swelling up. I outed myself in front of the class and corrected her or at least gave a different perspective and gave the class information on where they could access information about transgender issues. Perhaps some transgender people would like that third box, and that is perfectly ok, there are some who don't and neither are wrong. There are many identities on the gender and sexuality spectrum. Anyway, this is going to be a long semester with this class.

My response was as follows...

I've heard this opinion before in a little different context. It was expressed that a transsexual woman would never be a complete woman from the lack of never having to endure the full female experience, and having had the advantage of male privilege in the past they cannot fully grasp the gender disparity that a natal female would have. OK well that is fine and dandy except that it ignores the possibilities that:

#1 How does this translate for FTM transsexuals?

#2 It makes a giant assumption that all transsexuals and many cis-gender people either A. have identified or benefited from said male privilege, or B. plan on identifying or benefiting from said male privilege in the future.

Another assumption made here is that all transgender people are the same. She fails to define the difference between gender expression and gender identity. In short I express my gender openly as a female although I still do not feel that my identity is still in line with my expression. This is why we "mutilate" (in her words) our bodies! More accurately it is through very closely monitored corrective clinical and surgical procedures that we specifically as transsexuals, not transgenders in general, seek to align ourselves into a gender binary that is equal to our brain. Notice my use of the phrase binary. Yes I love the fact that gender is not binary, and I have mad respect for those that choose to fall between the binaries. Maybe this is where we need a third gender class, but as far as a transsexual male or female is concerned, i feel that it is the binaries in particular that we seek to align with.

As may be the case with is particular person, her only experiences may be remote and so even as an educator the perspective may not be fully backed with direct experience. Even my sister and brother-in-law who are deeply involved in the psychological community as PHDs in their respective fields and universities as educators have claimed to only have limited understanding of the transsexual or transgender experience. So congrats for standing up and putting yourself in such an awkward position in order to offer a different perspective that the professor clearly has no real life experience in. Her opinions sound very academically founded and maybe she needed it!

So lets hear some opinions men and women. What are your thoughts and experiences on the academic miss-information that may be floating around. What have been your experiences in identifying with said "male" privilege? What are your thoughts on the concept of gender binaries and the prospect of a third gender classification?

[kimdl93]

Lets be careful to define the nature of the class in question. Was this a political course - the initial comment refers to "queer studies" which doesn't suggest that its a clinical or science based course, but rather more of a political science focus, and the opinions presented by the lecturer need not be based in any valid science whatsoever. That doesn't mean the comments themselves are to be dismissed, but rather that they reflect a particular political perspective...filtering the experience of male, transgender and female through a civil rights perspective. Note the assertion that individuals transition to gain benefits of society in point, and that one must be natal to understand the discrimination in the other point. Neither assertion has any scientific basis. We know that people transition both to male and to female for deeply personal reasons, not go gain political or social advantage. And we know that the alleged mutilation really represents for transexuals, an opportunity to match their mind and body.

Now, if we step back from that and ask, can MtF or FtM fully expereince and understand the lives of natal GM or GGs? Maybe not exactly, but I certainly think that we know our share of oppression and discrimination. Consequently, we are at least a little more likely than others to appreciate and empathize.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Hi Sandra,


Male privilege if I ever truly had that was flushed on December 11th of 2006.
To tell you the truth I have a difficult time remembering when I was presenting as male as the months and years move forward.
Because of my biological makeup I claim 50% genetic female and 50% male to the exception of my brain which I count separate and is fully female.
I don't claim to fully understand a completely GG perspective just as a GG cannot fully understand my perspective.
It does not bother me that I'm not fully female concerning my physical makeup but it does bother me deeply to have academica label me transgender or queer if you will.

In my day to day life I disappear into society unnoticed but in my political life I'll fight to the bloody end for recognition as a separate and equal entity within the confines of the gender spectrum.


Julia

[Inna]

First of, scientific community is under understanding as of now, that gender dysphoria arises from disconnect between brain gender and that of body secondary sex characteristics. Said that, such provides evidence of innately preexisting gender identity within brain of a newborn child therefore gender imprinting such individual despite their bodies birth defective non-aligned body. One can argue the reverse to be true, and that the gender imprinted brain is the culprit and therefore non-align to the body. Either assumptions would be correct except, the essence of ones being resides in the brain and not in the body, for instance amputate leg or arm or any other non life threatening ligament and the person remains oneself. On the other hand (funny how it sounds :) ) amputate any part of the brain structure and chances are you have changed that personality for ever.

So in conclusion, argumentation that a transwoman will never be a woman is false because she always was a woman born into a wrong body aspect, her experiences will greatly differ however, from body-brain aligned woman but her neuro-network of brain structure will be the same or closely resembling natal females brain making her near identical in the feeling, sensuality, and mind aspect.

Not every woman is the same and so it goes to say, not every transsexual is the same, but these differences make us individuals not to separate a woman from transwoman but to give us a originality and diversity within species.

Well, if that ain't scientific then bite me :)

[Rianna Humble]

In a certain context, I both benefitted from and vigorously fought male privilege. In my political party, there was a lot of assumption that the only good candidates were male - despite the fact that our best Borough Councillor who went on to become our Member of Parliament for 13 years was a woman.

I am aware that my initial appointment as a candidate for the Borough Council was partly predicated on my perceived gender. However, I used that position to change the local party's constitution to make it easier to get women candidates and was jointly responsible with our MP for an influx of good women Councillors including the first openly lesbian Councillor.

On more than one occasion in the local party hierarchy, I ensured that my successor would be a woman.

I am not in favour of a third gender option in the sense that the lecturer seemed to be proposing, since in my estimation it would only be used to further discriminate against those of us whose bodies do not match our brains. We are already sufficiently stigmatised without having to walk around with a pink star on our clothing.

Whilst I do not believe that gender identity is binary, neither do I believe that it is ternary. There are a number of folk who are dual-gender, but I don't think that this constitutes a "third" gender.

[LeaP]

What are your thoughts and experiences on the academic miss-information that may be floating around. What have been your experiences in identifying with said "male" privilege? What are your thoughts on the concept of gender binaries and the prospect of a third gender classification?

Academics (typically) are processing other people's perspectives. They struggle to understand what they do not experience. That's fine, except that it leaves them open to gross errors. Studies on MtF transsexuals (in particular) have been critiqued time and again for the same deficiencies: highly selective populations, distortions due to gating, inherently sexist & misogynist approaches, politics, dishonest research (e.g., John Money), etc. Is it any wonder that an academic is clueless?

Male privilege is misunderstood as indicating something about cultural male dominance and role. It is not. Like female privilege, it's simply the set of assumptions and social permissions that are automatically granted when someone is gendered, i.e., those things that are culturally (and to some degree naturally) associated with that gender in the cisgender population. Anyone who has transitioned will you that they found out very quickly how differently men and women are treated, in thousands of ways, big and small, negative and positive. My experience with male privilege - with being always gendered male - is that I'm completely aware of it - every "sir," every time I'm handed a bill, whenever I walk into a room at work, even in my wife's expectations. I live in a state of acute gender awareness. Cisgendered people do not.

The binaries are illusory and fall apart the second you examine them in detail as they pertain to actual individuals. A third gender just adds more of the same. A OR B isn't much different than A OR B OR C. In fact, inventing a third gender is mostly a way of attempting to affirm the supposed validity of the binaries. After all, if you CAN'T POSSIBLY be A or B, you must be ... something else. Break down the binary and suddenly the range of gender identity, expression, and role are freed to be what the individual needs (and IS).

If a third gender was conceptually useful, it would already be in wide use in our culture. It is not. What we have is a wide variety of terms that express (or imply) combinations of characteristics in different ways. It is no more useful to combine them into a third gender than cobbling them into the transgender label.

Lea

[Frances]

Was it a class on Janice Raymond? It sounds like typical transphobia, nothing new here.

[LeaP]

First of, scientific community is under understanding as of now, that gender dysphoria arises from disconnect between brain gender and that of body secondary sex characteristics. Said that, such provides evidence of innately preexisting gender identity within brain of a newborn child therefore gender imprinting such individual despite their bodies birth defective non-aligned body.
Not every woman is the same and so it goes to say, not every transsexual is the same, but these differences make us individuals not to separate a woman from transwoman but to give us a originality and diversity within species.
...
Well, if that ain't scientific then bite me :)

I'll bite. :D

Problem is that there are no definitive studies (to my knowledge). Two problems here: isolating hormone effects in the populations studied, and accounting for (the lack of) differences in brain development pre-puberty. Where are the double-blind, long-term studies tracking populations from birth and correlating brain structures to gender variation? They don't exist. What exists are post-mortem dissections of transsexual brains (only) where there are observations about typical female structures and without even a clear understanding of exactly how those relate to gender identity!

I tend to believe in a combination of congenital and environmental factors to explain gender and gender variation. Individuals, of course, vary, but there is testimony to the impact of environmental, or experiental factors in play as close as the responses in this thread. I do find it VERY difficult to accept that there aren't some differences in the brain, as the brain is the seat of consciousness - especially when you consider that gender variation extends throughout human history, but the studies to-date haven't pinned it down. My comments on environmental/experiental impacts should not be read to denigrate innate sense of gender, BTW. Far from it, as I share it.

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

All. Know is that I spent my entire fricking life obsessively masturbating all day, wishing I was a woman....Every single moment that I can consciously recall had this undercurrent...it sucked.

When I finally realized I was a woman, and I could not cope with it anymore, I took advantage of all available medical technology and now live as myself...all thoughts of gender exist only to help others get through this situation..

I could not care less about whether my orgasms are truly female , that i dont have ovaries or anything other than the fact that everywhere I go and in everything I do, I express my true gender and it reflected back at me...And here is the key phrase...I do all this as best as I can,...

I urge everyone to aim for this place, it is truly transcendent.

[Inna]

I'll bite. :D

Problem is that there are no definitive studies (to my knowledge).

the paper I wrote for the site sheds some scientific data backed up by a scientific study and newest developments:

https://sites.google.com/site/transsexualwoman2/scientific

:)

[Starling]

...Every single moment that I can consciously recall had this undercurrent...it sucked...

I've never heard it better expressed, Kaitlyn. Boy, does that cut through the academic crap. I have great respect for honest scholarship, but when ignorance and prejudice cloak themselves in the trappings of academia, the result is a travesty. Now, that's crossdressing!

:) Lallie

[LeaP]

the paper I wrote for the site sheds some scientific data backed up by a scientific study and newest developments:

https://sites.google.com/site/transsexualwoman2/scientific

:)

See Anne Lawrence's site for a critique of these studies. She's a long way from being a favorite author and is interested in defending Blanchard's theories, but she is academically qualified to criticize the studies and many of her points are well-taken. These limited studies are not definitive.

annelawrence.com/twr/brain-sex_critique.html

Lea

[Inna]

Academics is just that, argumentation of "what ifs" however playful and often misleading, half of the time they lead to fantastic finds and progress of understanding physical world. However, transsexualizm isn't exactly in physical world, but fundamentally engages ones psyche and feelings. Let the scientists argue and perhaps one day we will understand such phenomena and I believe that through such, maybe not me and you but those who come next will be able to take a simple pill and their lives will be less controversial and not so complicated.

Despite all the medical and scientific data, my life had been surrounded by pain and regret, people pointing to how I should be and how I should do. Now, I am one and only, ME. Does someone calling me a transsexualwoman change who I am....not! Can someone hurt my feelings by saying derogatory comments....YES! are we really that different from the rest of human conglomerate so that we must be classified and belong to one club not the other. I believe that humanity is still in its infancy, our feelings still arise from the amphibian brain thirsty for aggression and animalistic tendencies, just look around the world, wars, murder, church, insanity.....But slowly, especially here in the western world understanding and tolerance of gay lesbian and trans is growing and some day shell be just so normal. The thing is...science and scientific principal helped pave this understanding and so I give a well deserved credence to the scientific community for doing their job in furthering humanity and its understanding!