CrossDressing and Society's stigmas

[TGMarla]

Some of the treads I have read and responded to lately have got me to thinking about the way that CrossDressing is percieved by society at large. I am interested in hearing an exchange of ideas that the rest of you have regarding this topic.

I feel very strongly, that in dealing with this topic, one cannot overestimate the influence that The Bible has had uppn Western Civilization. It is undoubtedly the most influential text in the history of Western Civilization. Deuteronomy 22:5 states clearly that "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abonination unto the Lord thy God." Furthermore, we read in Deuteronomy 23:17-18 and more specifically in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 that "You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination." and "If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Now, I don't really want to get into a deep discussion of homosexuality here. This is, after all, a CrossDressing forum. However, society at large lumps us all in together for better or worse. Many of us have, in this forum, stated flatly that they have had fantasies of sex with men, but in doing so, they fantasize that they, themselves, are women. This, I think is not homosexualism, rather something else altogether. But since the Western Civilization seems to toss it all into the same bubbling cauldron, it is important to understand just where these prejudices come from.

I believe that for the most part, we can all agree that the prejudices many, if not most, people carry regarding CrossDressing are rooted right in those passages that I quoted above. And these prejudices are the prevailing forces behind not our CrossDressing, but rather the way we, as CrossDressers, approach this practice. We hide. We hide it from our wives for fear that she won't and will not EVER understand and accept this behavior, and that as a result, we will lose her and be devastated at the loss. We hide it from our friends for fear that they will not understand, will label us as homosexuals and perverts, and as a result, our friendships with them will be unalterably changed for the worse or destroyed altogether. We hide it from our co-workers for fear of ostracization in the workplace, possibly causing our work to be compromised, or causing a loss of our livelihoods. We hide from the rest of the world, fearing even going out among people, fearing that we will be "read" by others, possibly risking injury or death from a public that does not accept such behavior. Note that these broad generalizations do not pertain to 100% of us, but rather what is probably the majority of us.

We overcome these fears, and emulate women as best we are able, so that we can go outside and try to feel what women must feel like when they are out among others. But in reality, we cannot do so: women do not feel that "fish out of water" feeling, that rush of nerves, that we as crossdressers feel when we successfully insert ourselves into society if even for short periods of time while we shop, get gas, or just walk through a mall.

There are a lot of justifications that many here and in other locales on the web use to validate CrossDressing, often coming in the form of "She wears my clothes, why can I not wear hers?" But she is not trying to hide her breasts. She is not trying to emulate a "package" between her legs. She is not wearing a man's wig in order to appear as a genetic male. She is not putting shadow on her upper lip and her chin or wearing a false beard or moustache. It is a totally different thing. We are for the most part emulating and attempting to pass ourselves off as genetic females. There is more to it than just the clothing. And society in Western Civilization does not in any way accept this behavior in the general public, relegating it to cheesy sit-coms where we can safely laugh at the guy wearing the dress.

So let's all weigh in on this, please. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

[Sharon]

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the issue of women wearing traditional men's clothing. It's been a rant of mine for some time that women are not attempting to emulate masculinity when they're wearing slacks. They are merely dressing for comfort and ease (as in not having to shave their legs if they don't want to on a particular day).

The Bible references are a whole 'nother ball of wax, in my opinion. I could never understand how people could pick and choose which parts of the Bible they take literally and which parts they don't.
All I know is that I'm basically a good person and I'm the way I am for reasons unknown. I was created to be this way and it is something I refuse to believe is wrong. I just think that the Bible was written by people who had prejudices of their own and it reflects the times they wrote it.
I also agree that it is the Bible and organized religion that is at the root of the prejudices against us. It has only been recent years that there has been a lessening of bigotry against any minority. We're just at the end of the line in acceptance.

Gads, this thread has the potential to really blow up, but I truly hope we can discuss these things rationally and calmly.

[Ellaine]

Marla :) I think you put that very well and see no real reason for discord here. I'm in total agreement! For me it is an inescapable illogicality that maintains the prejudices. I doubt even religious persons would argue that religion is logical. I have argued else where that the historic, global occurence of TG's is inexplicable and totally natural. I do not accept The Bible as the Word of God.

It's not us, it's them!!! :)

[Sissy Jay]

I've been praying on this for quite some time now. I go to church every Sunday and pray for some kind of answer to show the compashion toward a lifestyle that is not understood and not excepted in the true meaning on the BIBLE. I stil love my wife and I act as the man in the family, but I still consider myself A human. I make mistakes and try to correct them! I only dream of having sex with my wife, I only do have sex with my wife and I think of her when she's not home and I indulge in self satifaction. Is that justification enough to say that I am within the Lords standards of a males way of living? I am pretty sure it is not, but I will continue to pray about this and ask God for personal guidence. This is a rough subject! God speed you all in your journy to your truth. Yours Truly, Jay

[Natalie x]

Many, many people do not have the ability to understand something that is different from their experience, and their first reaction is to stamp on it. It is the same in nature; if a black bird has some white feathers, it is picked upon mecilessly by the other birds.

Throughout generations, people have used "religion" to justify their prejudices. Use of religion in this way is a cop out. As Sharon says, people pick the bits from the bible (or other holy book) that they want to use for their own purpose, but ignore the greater part of those works which are less convenient. Deuteronomy and Leviticus contain the Jewish law, and include instructions on animal sacrifices, rituals, clothing, social behaviour and hygiene practices. How many of those rules do these people also wish to follow? None, I venture.

I have a solid faith in God. The God I love does not judge but guides, lovingly. If any person invokes God to justify evil acts, then I know that person is, at best, misled and, at worst, a bigot.

This is a good thread, Marla, thank you for posting it.

[KatieZ]

I don't think it is so much of a religious thing. I mean after all how many of our "good christians" really are that good? A handful at best. Most christians and especially the ones in the bizness and politikal world only go to church as a self serving social status. "Look at me, I'm holier than you"

This is a male dominated society. A women is encouraged to dress in traditional male type clothing and climb the corporate ladder. She then becomes favored by society. Women look up to women that achieve sucess outside the home. Men consider them nearly equals when they do this.

Males on the other hand are expected to do the same, but when society sees them "backsliding" and acting feminine they don't understand. Why would anyone try to emmulate the weaker sex when they clearly have the upper hand by virtue of that thing between their legs.

SOB must be gay, let's tar and feather him and ride him out of town on a rail.

[paulaN]

I sure hope I don't rant to much on this one, here goes. In November here in Maine we will be voting on a (gay rights bill). I know it is wrong but I sorta group crossdressers in the same catagory. Because we are sort of in the same boat as far as socity is concerned. And as far a religion is concerned we are in the same boat. We are sinners very bad people and we are all going to rot in hell because the bible tells them so. I am so sick of all the stuff beeing published about how a gay way of life is so wrong. (Crossdressing fits into this too). I am on the edge of writing a letter to a local paper to tell these religious people a thing of two. I have been a crossdresser for a very long time I was born this way I did not make a choice in this matter. It has taken me many many years to come to terms with this. you girls now all the questions we have asked ourselves over the years.one is why god, why me. why did you make me this way? Well he did. Thank god I have now come to terms with myself and god on this matter. but it was not an easy road, it was a very hard one. so in my opinion the people who do all of this preaching about what is right in this great country of ours and want to bring there will and there gods will opon all of us because it's there belief and that's the way everyone should think. realy Pi**'s me off. So to me it is religion that has me stuck in the closet and I will have to stay there for a very long time. And things are going to get even worse for us just look at who those people elected for president. In the name of god indeed. sorry for the rant and the spelling.

[Sarahgurl371]

Ok I just craked my knuckles - could be a long post(ha ha)! Marla, I have never heard the other part of the most quoted biblical verse dealing with MTF CDs. The part about " a women shall not wear that which pertains to a man". WOW! How does that part conviently get lost in translation? I cannot wait for the next conversation I get into. Anyway, when my wife and I went to a marraige counselor about all this, he made mention of her apparel that day - male tennis shoes, jeans and a T shirt. 50 years ago, that was socially unacceptable, now it is OK. So I think at some point it will be OK for us as well. (Don't know when, maybe in my lifetime?) Anyway, I think that the Bible was written by Men, men who were spoken to by God. They were mere humans, suseptible to all the emotions of other humans, and prejudice, as well. Society must have rules, if not can you imagine what would happen? So they wrote thier rules, moral standards if you will, to keep society in line with thier ideals. I do not know if God stated that a man shall not wear the clothes of a women, why would he? Did He think that men and women were of different classes? If so, which sex would be dishonored or belittled by this crossdressing?

Anyway, we are all human. We are all prejudiced about something. We are not God like. We are not capable of loving without predjudice. We would all like to think so though, wouldn't we? I think I am very open minded, and accepting of difference, but if I dig deep enough, I can find some "group" which I would like to change, or think they are less than myself (prejudice?) An example - terrorists that kill indiscriminatley, they think they are right and are willing to kill themselves to prove it. It my view of religion, that is the one thing that you cannot be forgiven for - suicide.

Like i said, I believe that the Bible was written by men. Holy men? Is it possible that they saw the future and new that society was going to get to this point? Obviously crossdressing existed in some form even then - why would it be made mention of if it didn't? Proof that God made me who I am?

Oh this is just getting good!

I have a friend who is a minister. My wife's family is very religious, hence she was raised very religiously. A few years ago, she went to see a fortune teller. Her grandmother was very upset with the news of this, and lectured her about the "evil" things in this world. I mentioned to my friend the minister, and he said that yes the Bible does state that this isn't to be done (old testament i believe?). Anyway, he said that he did not have a problem with it at all, and did not believe that my wife commited a sin. Who is right, her very religious Grandmother, or my friend, a Minister, who graduated form Princeton with a degree in Theology? Maybe both, maybe niether. The difference.........Society and our views change over time.

We all believe different things to be absolute... we do not know anything that is absolute! Some day, as I believe, when I die and am standing in front of God, He will tell me if I am right or wrong about this stuff, His is the only opinion that matters in reality. Society just isn't that open minded about us. Society is evolution. It constanly changes. Some day, were will its view about us go?

And the Evangelical Christians have even stronger views about us, not only us but the whole Bill of Rights I would suspect. In this country (USA) women couldn't even vote until the middle of the 1900's, people of any color other than white, were and still are I suspect, viewed as second class citizens by many. Even after all the Civil Rights movements of the last century. I do not personally know anybody who would say that out loud, how many think it?

I have found that I can really relate to the plight of minorities, I am in no way saying I have suffered equally with all those courageous souls who have died and been injured or made to suffer for standing up for thier HUMAN RIGHTS, but am I not a minority? If anything, I have found tremendous respect for them.

The reason that we as CDs are stereotyped and labled and made to feel less than human is because humans are the ones judging everybody. And as humans we like to think "I am right, my point of view is the correct and only one". Until that changes, human nature that is, what hope do we have of there never being a "group" who is discriminated against again? Plus anybody ever heard that we fear that which we do not know? I think that we all should stand up and tell everybody we know that we are crossdressers! I know that there are people that would immeadiatley forget all the good things about me that they like, and would hate me because I am one of those. I do not have the courage to stand up to that yet.

I also agree that many who have a problem with us, view women as second class humans, and how could a Man choose to degrade himself to that. I think women are the higher class humans, and worhty of my emulation of them.

This has been a three cigarette post. And them damned smokers too! Sorry its soooooo long. I just love to exchange ideas.

[Toyah]

I am sorry WTF has the bible to do with anyone but bigoted narrow minded neo conservatives. It is only those of us that do not follow such outdated doctrines that has allowed us to be where we are for better or worse coz lets face it if they had their way this, and any other forum would be shut down.
Live with it, Christianity belives what we do is a sin you cannot discus round it, its up to you, in or outI know where I am:) :thumbsup:

[KathrynW]

IMHO, I don't think it's so much of a bible issue as it's an issue of society in general judging what's "normal" and "not normal". The scriptural reference is a pretty old testament thing and really doesn't mean much, even to Christians, unless you follow every word printed in the bible, and that's practically impossible in this day and age.
I don't mean to sound like a wet blanket, but I don't believe it's ever really going to be ok for guys to just wear whatever they want without being judged by society. Yes, it's kind of a double standard, considering that women can wear pretty much whatever they want. Fair? No, it's not fair.

[melissacd]

If we step back and look at this in a different way, I believe we will find that the stigma is mostly ourselves projecting into the world. Are there people who believe cross dressing is wrong, you bet. Are there consequences to being known as a cross dresser, most likely. Do we have a choice in how we live our lives, absolutely.

Life is about choice and all choices have consequences. The question is are we willing to accept those consequences. Sometimes the price is too high and sometimes the price is acceptable. Always in the end though, we choose. I suspect that while many may make a comment about a man in a dress and there may be some snickering and occassionally a violent action or two, I am pretty sure that if most of us dressed the way that we want that eventually it would be ignored and then accepted. The reason that it is so hard now is that we are afraid of a huge reaction that we may never get. Other people for the most part are mostly interested in themselves. If the estimated 10% of cross dressers came out of the closet, there would be an initial reaction (some good, some not so good) but eventually the novelty would wear off and cross dressing would become as accepted as anything else in our lives. People would start to see that cross dressers are not sexual deviants, perverts or monsters. They would see that they are normal people just like them.

I believe society is changing and there will come a time when cross dressing will be perfectly acceptable. A time when we will not have to make that scary choice to risk humiliation or other negative outcomes. A time when men and women will be looked at with equal respect and that women will not be considered the weaker sex and that hence men will not seem like they are losing something when they donne a dress and pantyhose. They will be seen as expressing their style, expressing their true self.

The way that that starts to happen is here, with us getting comfortable with this within ourselves, helping each other to appreciate that this is perfectly normal and is a wonderful gift. Each step that we take everyday in accepting ourselves, in not projecting our own stigmas onto society, is a step towards society accepting us as we are. It is in effect a form of self actualization. The more we accept ourselves, the more others will accept us.

Huggs
Melissa

[Lauren_T]

As far as CDing & religion go, I posted this a while back...
Those who have already read it excuse me for recycling...

_______________________

I cannot possibly accept the idea that whatever entity (or entities?) that set this unimaginably complex universe into motion would ever spend one quadrillionth of an picosecond concerned with whether or not some members of the dominant species on this particular planet wear a certain configuration of various organic substance arranged on their bodies.
I believe that the very idea is not only infinitely ludicrous, but demonstrates an absolute and total lack of realization of just how far beyond our pitifully limited understanding that 'creating entity', aka "God," actually is.

Or to put it in slightly more 'traditional' terms: The all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God of Creation cannot possibly be concerned with what we mere mortals put, or do not put, on our bodies. To suggest that is to belittle God. To have the incredible hubris to imagine that our petit, utterly inconsequential concerns with clothing are important enough to merit the attention of the Creator of the Universe is to insult that Creator.

_______________________

[Lauren_T]

...and since I'm already guilty of the sin of recycling, I'll toss in this, for those who did not see it at first go...

Re whether we will ever gain acceptance...

_______________________

In 10 to 30 years, acceptance of gender-variant people will be won without a fight - because a critical mass of people in Western society will then be in controlling positions in society, people who will have have grown up with numerous GVs around - friends, schoolmates, even relatives - who won't be anything unfamilar or unacceptable to them...

...and remember you heard it here first...

_______________________

[nancy58]

Marla, I'm not sure what's your point. Most folks are weirded out by what we do, and I don't think the Bible has anything to do with it. You're talking about societal norms, social mores (pronounced "morays") -- all those little rules, most of which are not written down anywhere, that we have to learn how to navigate with only the feedback we get as our guide. Most people don't know every last detail that's in the Good Book, and even if they do, they probably only know what's in the modern language they live with, not the "original" Hebrew or Greek. Sure, the biblical rules have affected their notions of right and wrong, but when you transgress this or that rule, they are hard-pressed to tell you where the rule came from. They just "know" it is so, just as they "know" the Bible prohibits drinking alcohol or dancing. (I haven't found where it does.)

As to whether men dressing as women, or in women's clothes, will ever be accepted, I'd say it won't be. We may think it's not controversial for women to wear men's clothing, but it is still controversial for some people, and it always will be. There are people out there right now who will argue that a woman should not be in the workplace. There is a wide spectrum of beliefs out there -- even reflected a little in this forum -- that means there will always be people who find certain actions of other people to be "wrong".

It's not just religion that will impede acceptance of male crossdressing. I believe it's also the nature of the human male. Male relationships seem to be very much about power, or dominance, and I've read that this is characteristic of primates in general. An effeminate male, or a male trying to be feminine, is going to be seen as a weaker being and will be deprecated for being such. To change that, we'd have to change the animal. The best you and I can hope for is to aim for microcosms of society where there is acceptance of us for who we are and what (besides putting on a dress) we do.

Coincidentally, our rabbi gave a Yom Kippur sermon that treated on Judaism and homosexuality. I did not get to hear it firsthand, but he gave me a preview in a conversation several days in advance. He said that the bit about a man not lying with another man, which is so often cited as being a prohibition on homosexuality, actually says in Hebrew that a man should not lie with another man as he would with his wife, and it could be interpreted as being neutral toward homosexuality, and instead a reinforcement of the prohibition on adultery. "You should not lie with anyone as you do your wife." He was making the case that Jews (at least in the Reform movement) ought to accept homosexuals. I didn't ask him about the texts on gender and clothing; I'm not ready to share this part of me with anyone but my wife and with other people whom I know understand crossdressing.

Hmmm. Now, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make. I personally don't accept the notion that other people ought to dictate what is good and bad about my behavior -- not the Pope in Rome, nor some group of Orthodox rabbis in Israel. Ditto for the ayatollahs and the Dali Lama. I am responsible for my own actions, and the measure I use of whether they are moral, immoral, or indifferent is whether they result in good or bad for myself and for others. The apostle Paul, in explaining why Christians did not have to follow Mosaic dietary laws (avoiding pork, etc.), said something to the effect of it does not matter whether your food is "unclean" or not, but whether the words that come out of your mouth are "unclean" or not. It's a point I agree with him on -- but I do wonder a bit whether he was smoking something when he wrote Revelations.

Finally, if you're looking for a guide to living morally, I think you need look no further than Monty Python's Life of Brian or The Meaning of Life. Both works give the basic principles that one needs. Or, to quote Rabbi Hillel, "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. That is the entire law: all the rest is commentary."

Nancy

[Kimberly]

Something I posted a while back...

Ever since coming out to my (now ex) girlfriend, and talking to her about this, gender issues and the issues society seems to have against men wearing skirts and heels etc, I've been thinking really in depth about whether there will ever be a utopia in which no one cares what people wear and base their judgements on personality...

Sorry if this gets confusing, but...

I find it incredibly difficult to understand why people find men in skirts and heels strange. To me, yes they are feminine, but logically they are just clothes. And so people who have no real concern with the feminine or sexual aspects of some crossdressing shouldn't really be bothered with what they see a man wear. I myself long for the day where I can just get up in the morning, have a shower and then slip on a shirt and jacket, ready for college, but instead of trousers put on a nice pair of tights, a black pencil skirt and a good pair of 3" heels! But if I did that, I'd be gay, wouldn't I? (note the irony.)

But then I got thinking, and wondered, what was it that attracted us to women's clothes in the first place? From my own experience, I wanted to be a girl from the age of about 2 till the age of 5, (I think I still wonder about it, but have realised there is no miracle cure to change my gender. And I don't want to have the surgery.) But then this feeling of wanting to be the opposite sex changed into a sexual implication of wearing female clothes, and this is what drove me to crossdress in my later life. I crossdressed when I was very young, again about 2-5 years old, but it was never with the lust or sexual intent I did when I was 14 or 15. Now, my dressing has evolved, and I am about to step into the next phase of my dressing life, in which I go full out girly... Bras, panties, tops, jackets, skirts... everything I don't have yet. (I have shoes and skirts, but that's about it.) I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that I'm confused about whether I dress to be feminine, and get a sexual thrill from it, or whether I dress because I choose to and because I like female clothes better than male clothes. I think it's a bit of both personally.

But back to my original question: What attracted us to the clothes? Was it to become feminine? ... But then we come slap bang into the brick wall of "women's clothes will ALWAYS be women's clothes," and the realisation of the utopia of acceptance I described will never be. Or is it because we choose women's clothes over men's clothes, and we have the idealogy that clothes are clothes and do not imply our sexuality or gender? If it is the latter, then society should not have a problem and I should be able to whip that skirt on first thing in the morning...

And thus is the problem inside my head. I fear that crossdressing will never be accepted because masculine and feminine will always be polars apart, but do compliment each other - man and woman. There will never be an in between, that I have heard a few speak of. The Native American "Third Gender" as I have read of somewhere...

Lost somewhere in this splurge of a question is my true problem... Somewhere. Do we dress because we want to be "girls"? (in any loose sense of the word...) That is the comment that I want to follow... why we dress, and what implication does it give to society, and namely to your life?

A good friend said to me a few days ago, whilst reading Sugar magazine, (teenage girl pulp gossip,) "Did you know, men actually look better in skirts and heels than women do!?"

My thought was: So why don't we wear them??
My comment was: My god, what is that world coming to??

I apologise for the rant... Some thoughts on the subject would be nice.

As a quick answer to my own question - I truly don't think any of us fully understand why we dress... we just do, because it is an "urge."

Think happy thoughts

All my love xxx

The full topic: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8082

[KathrynW]

A good friend said to me a few days ago, whilst reading Sugar magazine, (teenage girl pulp gossip,) "Did you know, men actually look better in skirts and heels than women do!?"
wow...I'd be interested to know how they came up with that theory...

As a quick answer to my own question - I truly don't think any of us fully understand why we dress... we just do, because it is an "urge."
how about this answer...
Because we're totally miserable when we don't ever do it ?;)

[Kimberly]

how about this answer...
Because we're totally miserable when we don't ever do it ?;)
Sounds about right ;)

... If you read on the full topic, (A long read, I know,) we came up with some amazing ideas!

[Sweet Susan]

I don't think it has anything at all to do with God, the Bible, Christians, or any other righteous bullshit. I think it's pretty much pure and simple John Wayne Macho I'm A Man bullshit. Be A Man. Don't be a pussy. Only Wackos wear dresses. I've never seen Jesus in a movie wearing a pair of Levi's. He was always wearing that long dress looking thing, and a pair of sandals. Real men don't wear sandals or long dress looking things. Not sure what to make of that.

[Helen MC]

Taking a UK perspective on this there is a certain Irony. Officially and according to their respective Constitutions Great Britain is a Christian Country, whilst the USA is Secular. In actual fact the situation is reversed in REAL life.

Apart from the various Ethnic Minorites in Britain such as Islamics, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews etc to whom their Religion is inextricably mixed with their Culture and Ethnicity, the indigenous citizens of the UK, whilst nominally Christians are not at all religious. Church-going is an exception and more common in people over 60. The Bible is a book which is owned by many British familes but which lies on a shelf gathering dust and is seldom read. It is also looked on by many as being a quaint old volume full of interesting stories and quotations but having no "Authority" over them and the way they run their lives. Most Brits would be unaware of the quotation mentioned in previous posts on this thread and would simply ignore it as being irrelevant to them if they did and would consider it as no more binding than some of the convoluted Dietary Laws of the Jews. Correct me if I am wrong but some American "Christians" take the Bible to be literally true and not only obey all its strictures but feel that they have the right to impose these on others who do not.

Over here prejudice against Crossdressers and Transvestites is more primal and societal rather than religious. Some is informed by societal mores and customs . From an early age children are put into the two categories , Boys or Girls according to their Genital configuration. They will be dressed accordingly and given toys etc which are considered "appropriate" to their sex. Activities follow the same pattern by and large. Boys are expected to like "Rough and Tumble Games" (I HATED these from being a toddler long before I first wore a pair of girls' knickers at the age of 12), to help Dad when old enough working on the car, doing DIY etc. Girls to help Mum in the kitchen, doing the housework, making or repairing clothes etc. In most families any child adopting the pattern of the opposite sex would be brought sharply into line,( see the Billy Elliot Film as an example) but this is not even handed. Parents tend to be more tolerant of a "Tom Boy" Daughter than a "Girly" Son. This is of course mirrored in adult society as we all know . A woman can wear clothing that is as Male, Macho, and Butch as one can get and nobody bats an eyelid but a man who wants to wear a skirt , even a very plain dark one would be open to question, ridicule and possibly physical abuse.

I often wonder if this is because our predominatly Male orienated Society fears that CDs and TVs somehow weaken the herd mentality masculine paradigm? There is also the erroneous public perception that any man who wears female clothing, even if only knickers and panties, is a Homosexual , although many CD/TVs are anything but, and this again is felt to be a threat to the Masculine "norm".

What is needed is for some Iconic male figure to wear a skirt in public and this to catch on with the younger generation of males. I had hoped that David Beckham wearing a Sarong and stating that he sometimes wore his wife Victoria's Thongs would have started a favourable trend but this was stillborn.

[Kimberly]

Montfort,

You speak the truth... and complete sense!

This is exactly how I feel about this topic: people are catergarised straight away -- boys and girls!! Then, as we grow up, we take it for granted our differences and and respective behavioural patterns (that most likely, society has inflicted on us.)

Just take this phrase I hear occassionaly from male acquiantences: "I don't understand women."

We are distanced from the other sex, as a society! For men, women are merely strange sexual object that we can't understand or guess. For women, men are idiots who really can't consider others before their own sexual drive, and have no relation with their own emotions and the emotions of others.

Who's the 'weaker sex' here?? Oh, I wonder...

Of course, I generalise, but I can think of situations when I've heard this, and talked about it.

My too few cents. :p

[Lauren_T]

...
What is needed is for some Iconic male figure to wear a skirt in public and this to catch on with the younger generation of males. I had hoped that David Beckham wearing a Sarong and stating that he sometimes wore his wife Victoria's Thongs would have started a favourable trend but this was stillborn.Well, as I mentioned (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=194985&highlight=public#post194985) a couple months ago:


...
To borrow the catchphrase of The Great Criswell (one of Ed Wood's best friends), "I PREDICT!:" that David Beckham will appear in public, IRL, in feminine attire - within two years!

You've all seen the pics of Becks in that sarong and Brad Pitt in that dress, right?

After the first male superstar asserts (not admits) that he crossdresses, and his career doesn't nosedive, others will pop out of the woodwork, slowly at first, and a certain number will even, just to be seen doing the latest and therefore hippest thing, claim (falsely) to be CDs - while some others - no, make that quite a few others - in Hollywood and everywhere else - will give it a try, big or small, covert or overt.

...

Also, this... (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=230960#post230960)


People ev'body loves, not doubt in the public's mind about their masculinity... sorta like:
http://www.toppics4u.com/brad-pitt/misc/090.jpg
or possibly...
http://www.idrottsforum.org/articles/dahlen/sarong.jpg
...or better still...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38328000/jpg/_38328415_tinkywinky150.jpg

[Sarahgurl371]

The way that that starts to happen is here, with us getting comfortable with this within ourselves, helping each other to appreciate that this is perfectly normal and is a wonderful gift. Each step that we take everyday in accepting ourselves, in not projecting our own stigmas onto society, is a step towards society accepting us as we are. It is in effect a form of self actualization. The more we accept ourselves, the more others will accept us.

Huggs
Melissa

I totally agree with you Melissa! :thumbsup: I have found that part of the problem in my life, unacceptance by my wife, has actually had to do with my own self acceptance. I projected my stigmas onto CDing and through subconscious signals and messages, gave them to her to pick up on. If only I had gained self acceptance before trying to obtain hers, who knows how the outcome would have differed. The point: We need to put a positive face on it, before the rest of society can put a positive face on it.:)

[DonnaT]

A pretty good read on Deuteronomy (http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/deut22v5.html), the main source of where the issue of sin and crossdressing comes from. Note that many of the ordinances in Deut. are ignored (pick and choose what suits you :thumbsdn: ).

But regardless of whether it is a sin or not, we've also been taught "Judge not", something else that gets ignored.

Source:

http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/index1.html

The Grace and Lace web site has a number of interesting articles with regard to Religion and being Transgendered.

One even talks about how the ordinances of the old testament were abolished by the new testament. http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/dead.html

Anyway, the bible was written by men and their beliefs and prejudices influenced not only what was written, but also what was chosen out of all the writings (dead sea scrolls, for example) to be in the bible. Some of the writings (Gospel of Thomas) were hidden away as being to controversial. For example verse 22

22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

[Lauren_T]

It's been said, for good reason, and more than once, "Man created God in his own image..." :rolleyes:

[Sarahgurl371]

Since we are talking about gender laws and the fact that they are assigned at birth, anybody read Gender Outlaw, by Kate Bornstien? Excellent book written by a MTF transsexual that questions why she had to transition in the first place, just so she could be more socially accepted. It was kinda diffcult to follow at first, but once her writing style is comprehended, it was very much worth the time, and offered some wonderful ideas.

[Cathy Anderson]

Hi Marla,

Thanks for an interesting question.


Some of the treads I have read and responded to lately have got me to thinking about the way that CrossDressing is percieved by society at large. I am interested in hearing an exchange of ideas that the rest of you have regarding this topic.

I don't believe the Bible has caused cultural predudice against CDing. Rather, I think there's a deeper cultural issue involved; the biblical views just reflect the deeper issue.

The deeper issue is a conflict between "manly duty" versus comfort/pleasure, the latter being seen as effeminate. We can see this strong rejection of male effeminacy in both the Greek and Roman cultures, independent of the biblical tradition. Stoicism, for example, developed unrelated to Christianity and Judaism.

I should mention that there were effeminate Greeks and Romans, but they were not well thought of.

Personally, I don't feel victimized by prejudice.

[TGMarla]

Interesting, Cathy. And you're probably right. There have been a lot of great points made here concerning how CrossDressing is percieved in modern society. I'll admit to a bit of a vendetta against the organized Christian Right, because in America today, it seems that political Christian fundamentalists have been shoving their religious doctrine down our collective throats for years now. The President going to church on Sunday has become a photo-op, and the whole "red state-blue state" issue has grown tiresome to say the least. When I see religious bumper stickers on cars, I often wonder if they're trying to convince me, or themselves of their piety?

What I'm on about here is that society's stigma against CrossDressing is deeply rooted. It has been pointed out here that this preconceived prejudice is so deeply rooted, it is unlikely to change in the forseeable future (sorry Lauren, but I don't see it happening). The passages in the Bible that I alluded to probably do not represent the root of this, but rather reflect attitudes that have always been there. Yet the neo-Christian Bible-belt fundamentalists that seem to be spreading like mold in this country find those passages very convenient while attacking issues like CrossDressing.

On a side note, I find it interesting that the male of our species has been in control of the flow of society throughout history. This is most likely due to the fact that the male is bigger, and is capable of brute force. History shows us that when intelligence is unavailable, or just plain doesn't work, mankind resorts to brute strength to achieve its ends. Perhaps this is one of the things I find so appealing about womanhood.

[KathrynW]

What I'm on about here is that society's stigma against CrossDressing is deeply rooted. It has been pointed out here that this preconceived prejudice is so deeply rooted, it is unlikely to change in the forseeable future (sorry Lauren, but I don't see it happening). The passages in the Bible that I alluded to probably do not represent the root of this, but rather reflect attitudes that have always been there. Yet the neo-Christian Bible-belt fundamentalists that seem to be spreading like mold in this country find those passages very convenient while attacking issues like CrossDressing.

Marla~
Yes, I believe you're correct...society's opinion of cd-ing is highly unlikely to ever change. Yes, some parts of the country are more tolerant than others, but it will never be widely accepted as "normal" for a male to wear women's clothing in public.
The bottom line in all this could be...
Once we've conquered our own self-acceptance issues, (which many of us still struggle with) How much importance do we place on what other people think about us? Do we concern ourselves if others in society think we're freaks or perverts for cd-ing? Is the urge to satisfy the femme side more powerful than other's opinions?

[Dixie Darling]

OK, I'm going to inject my own views about Marla's post (good topic BTW, and handled well by the group here without it becoming a shouting contest).

To begin with, Deut 22:5 (as pointed out here by several replies) is contained in the OLD testament. The laws in effect at the time the books of this part of the bible was written were in effect BEFORE Jesus was born. His birth effectively marked the abolishment of these laws and th institution of NEW laws - to wit: The NEW testament. And even if the old testament laws were still valid, Deut 22:5 related to the fact that many women of that time period were disguising themselves in order to enter the temple to pray. Since it was forbidden for women to enter the temple this was the only way they could get in.

Although the new testament DOES refer to homosexual acts, it DOESN'T have any references to crossdressing. Seems to me that if it was the 'abomination' that our current religious (???) denominations want to believe it is, there would be some mention of it under the new laws of the new testament.

My personal opinions are very similar to many of those already mentioned here. Yes, there is a certain amount of condemnation of crossdressing among the religions, and there is a lot of it that's simply societal opinion based on what it (society) has defined as "normal" behavior for men and what's "normal" for women. Most of these beliefs are based on what these people were taught as children and hence is sort of 'engrained' within them.

Like many of the members here, I used to question just WHY was I born this way. Over the years and through a lot of prayer and practical research I finally came to a point where it became clear to me that I was created the way I am for a reason. OK, but now what IS that reason? More praying, and a lot more research. The research didn't reveal much more than I already knew, but the praying paid off. It became apparent to me that I was born this way to eventually provide help and support to OTHERS like me who were having problems in accepting the fact that THEY were born this way. Obviously it's almost impossible for a non-crossdresser to understand what a crossdresser feels in his head and even more importantly in his heart, so I guess you might say it "takes one to know one". Anyway, this realization that I was made the way I am for this particular reason was what led to the creation of my web site and the Yahoo group that I formed. It's important to point out here that carrying out this 'mission' of support is not without its difficulties. My own wife (of over 35 years) is totally non-tolerant of my dressing and for this reason anything that I do that is CD related has to be done in secret. I came out to her 'officially' in 2000 and even though she already knew that I was a CD, my admission of it to her was a negative turning point in our lives. No amount of reputable documentation - medical or otherwise - has been successful in changing her attitude about it so I am resigned to the fact that she will never be accepting or tolerant of it. Still, I feel that I have an obligation to help those that I can and this is what I continue to try to do.

Sorry for the lengthy reply here, but in a nutshell I believe that religion DOES play a certain role in the non-acceptance of crossdressing, and society in general has a part in the same non acceptance. Then we have the 'bubbas' of the world who seem to believe that femininity in any male is a sign of weakness and inferiority. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that these bubbas will never be able to truly connect life as they need to simply because they are afraid to let their feminine feelings (ALL men have these to some extent) come to the surface in their heads OR their hearts.

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

[Kimberly]

Once we've conquered our own self-acceptance issues, (which many of us still struggle with) How much importance do we place on what other people think about us? Do we concern ourselves if others in society think we're freaks or a perverts for cd-ing? Is the urge to satisfy the femme side more powerful than other's opinions?
Very valid!!

I agree: too much of our own sense of well-being is from outside reaction - from the reactions of people outside our control. Why should this actually matter to us... Humans being social creatures, I expect.

But if what you do brings you happiness and harms no other person, physically or emotionally, then it actually doesn't matter what people you meet once and never again, think about you.

These sentances are getting longer and longer.

Just another point I thought worthwhile. :)

[Shannon]

Excellent thread! I'm jumping in a bit late on this perhaps. I want to reinforce Dixie's comment about women were dressing as men to get into the temple. I took a few religion courses back in college (an eon ago). The courses were co-taught by a Jewish Rabbi and an Angelican Priest (imagine!). They both stressed that the Bible, viewed as literature, must be interpreted in the cultural context of the time. The metaphors and allegories were for a pastural, man-dominated society where women, animal and children were viewed as possessions. Many of the "rules" were written to manage and govern this social structure.

Think of how times changed -- I think that in Shakespearean England, females were not allowed to perform in plays, so males did the female roles. Oh, is okay to CrossDress if is 'theater'?

The way I read Marla's initial point is that in Western society, the Judeo-Christian traditions, teaching, beliefs, mores and norms were the source of most of our common and criminal laws. I think that is accurate. It is deeply ingrained.

There's been a lot of research that suggests there are two core ways that people process information, events, situations, (e.g., "life") -- either from a Relative framework or an Absolute framework. People that process information from a Absolute framework are more "black and white" in their thinking, things are either right or wrong, good or bad.... People that process information from a Relative framework are more "shades of gray", and view things in degrees, appropriateness.... Not surprisingly, conservative and fundamentist types tend to be Absolute. I'm not saying all of them are, but the direction is clear. So, perhaps the Absolute types rely on religion and traditions to support their views.

My two cents.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Personally, I think the influence of Deut. 22:5 is over-rated. Most people disapprove first and then go looking for rationales to support that disapproval. Deut. 22:5 was just a reflection of pre-existing attitudes.

Without getting into the specifics of Deut. 22:5 itself, which have been well discussed, I think the disapproval has a lot more to do with societal attitudes toward gender roles. There's more disapproval in cultures where gender roles are more tightly drawn. And it reflects the historical (and current) lesser status that women have. Consequently, when women transgress gender boundaries, while it definitely has upset people, it was more "acceptable" in the sense that they were aspiring to a more powerful role in society. Whereas MTF CDs are giving up the privileges associated with the masculine role.

The other factor is the widespread public perception of the association of CDing with homosexuality. I think that has to do with the fact that manhood is often defined less by what it is than by what it isn't: not feminine, not gay. When we were boys, we'd tease the weaker boys about being gay long before we had any idea what homosexuality was. Because this association is so strong, people just assume that a man who wants to be feminine must be gay as well.

The other big factor is that CDing suggests gender isn't as clear-cut (just as homosexuality -- or even more so, bisexuality -- does for sexual orientation), which is quite troubling to people who tend toward a black-and-white worldview. As Shannon said, there's a lot of people who aren't comfortable seeing the world in shades of gray. Incidentally, this is true of cultures in general. Non-Western cultures, tend to be (but aren't always), less absolutist in their worldview. Not surprisingly, TGs tend to be (but aren't always) viewed in a more accepting manner.

[Lauren_T]

Marla, I think you're overestimating the clout the Religious Wrong actually has... for one, it's a demographic thing. Right-wing religiosity & fundamentalism are more common among people who tend to be older, poorer and from isolated rural origins. Due to age, more of them are retiring / dying off and thereby losing influence over public affairs, and they aren't being replaced; those currently entering adulthood, and getting their input from MTV, CNN, the Internet and multicultural city life in general - they aren't buying the Bible-thumpers' line. Watch some Sunday morning televangelists and look at the sheep in the audience. The cynical youth of today don't fall for the crap the Ernest Angleys, Pat Robertsons and Jimmy Swaggarts feed to aging, gullible bumpkins...

And though that clown in the White House pandered to them in order to win the election, since thumping the Bible and waving the flag passes for virtue among sheep, he hasn't actually delivered much to them, and as the events of the past couple months show, the Bush administration's agenda is headed straight for oblivion, along with a lot of the Religious Wrong's hopes of jamming their zealous bigotry down America's collective throat... In fact, Tom DeLay was their biggest hope, and his reign is over.

They had their day in the sun, it's time to stick a fork in 'em. Check out the colleges and universities that our future leaders are attending and notice the rapid spread of GLBT student orgs and support groups. Recent grads hardly raise an eyebrow at gender outlaws - a lot of whom are their classmates and contemporaries...

I'd say the fear of the religious bigots is like the fears so many of us have in stepping out... they both tend to be a lot more severe than the actual circumstances usually warrant.

No, they - and their influence over government - might not be gone yet, but they are definitely on their way out! :)

[Helen MC]

The point I find difficult to understand is that most CDs and TVs do NOT pose any threat. It is a solitary activity, often Autoerotic in nature, and no other person need be involved. Why the many males, (and alas a few females) are so hostile to CDs and TVs I cannot understand. I have never read of a CD raping or sexually assuaulting others.

[Lauren_T]

The point I find difficult to understand is that most CDs and TVs do NOT pose any threat. It is a solitary activity, often Autoerotic in nature, and no other person need be involved. Why the many males, (and alas a few females) are so hostile to CDs and TVs I cannot understand. I have never read of a CD raping or sexually assuaulting others.It's a psych issue, with many factors, social, political and personal - but at the root of it all is insecurity.

Sex - and, in the mind of the average Westerner, that includes everything remotely associated with it - is still mysterious and shameful to most people. Because sexual activity is so private, and seems to be so at odds with how others act in public, it generates a sense of self-doubt; "Gee, it seems like I'm the only person who likes this so much - I don't see anyone out there who admits to doing it - so I must be a weirdo..."

When that self-doubt arises, it breeds insecurity. When you're insecure about your sexual desires, the shame leads to defensiveness. A typical male who has what are actually normal, commonplace thoughts about certain sexual activities - particularly same-sex - assumes, quite wrongly, from watching everyone else's assertions of masculinity, that he's the only one and that he's sexually abnormal. So in an effort to ward off suspicion, he deliberately acts more stereotypically masculine and reacts forcefully to anything that might "blow his cover."

"Whaddaya mean by that?? Are you callin' me a faggot?? I'll kick your ass!!" We've all heard that sort of thing, and it's invariably a sign of self-doubt as to one's sexuality. The inner voice is saying "Geez, if I don't take great offense at that, everybody'll know I'm perverted!"



As always, that is a gross oversimplification of a complex phenomenon with numerous causes and effects, but it does cover the basics...

[Rachel Morley]

Not much more to add, but I tend to side with the opinions of Nancy, Kimberly, and Darla.

My 2 cents.........

The only way we as crossdressers will truly become accepted is if the perception of women in society today is changed from that of somewhat second class citizens. Why has there never been a female US President? Where are all the women governors? Why is there no such thing as a female military general?

Sadly, in today's world (amongst a lot of men) women are seen as somehow inferior. That's why any man who exhibits any type of behavior that is deemed feminine is seen (by men) as being like a woman, which to them is weak and therefore inferior and so shouldn't be tolerated.

[Kimberly]

Oh, is okay to CrossDress if is 'theater'?
If it is done, which some modern day productions choose too, then it is done in artistic integrety, and to prove some point to the audience.

Tom Stoppard plays on Shakespearean male-dominated acting very well in 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead'.

Player: Now, for a handful of guilders I happen to have a private and uncut performance of the Rape of the Sabine Women - or rather woman, or rather Alfred - (Over his shoulder) Get your skirt on, Alfred...



(c) Tom Stoppard, 1967

[Lauren_T]

...
Tom Stoppard plays on Shakespearean male-dominated acting very well in 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead'......don't let's forget Shakespeare In Love... it's obviously a topic he has given more than a little thought to... :)

[JulieNY]

Lots of good thoughts. Really nice read. Not much to add!

The bible is an important book for our society developmentally and people will also use it to justify their prejudice. Really, not much we can do about that. It's the logical fallacy of falsifiability; people are going to use anything they can get their hands on to deny what they don't like, oblivious to anything to the contrary. Lucky them, the bible happens to be close by.

As ya'll said, the best idea is to be comfortable with ourselves and present that to society. Something odd, by definition, would have to be something few participated in. Getting ourselves out there would help. Heh, I have more a problem with that then most, but I'm working on it. Women may be seen as the weaker sex and us weaker for seeking it, but weakest of all would be hiding in shame passively agreeing that it is wrong.

On a long enought time line, change will happen. But, in America at least, that timeline tends to be pretty long. And attitudes aren't going to change on their own. Women had to put up their own fight to vote, African-Americans had to stand up for their citizenship, and our rights will also have to be fought for by our own. I don't mean to compare our acceptance to movements greater than ours, but neither is society going to change its mind with time alone.

Aright, off my soap box. I love you all.

[jeniinnylons]

What I find interesting is the fact that "some" clothing now worn by women were once mens clothing.

Examples are this, Men in the 1700's were wearing things like tights and wigs.

So does that then make them womens or mens?

It all depends on what your society says is ok.

For me the worst part is that women can wear mens clothing and nothing is wrong or weird. My wife while has worn my underwear even but if I wear hers I'm doing something wrong.

[byrony]

Wow, see this is why I'm glad that I'm agnostic.

[KathrynW]

Wow, see this is why I'm glad that I'm agnostic.
And...what's your point?
btw...I'm glad that I'm not agnostic... ;)

[TGMarla]

For me the worst part is that women can wear mens clothing and nothing is wrong or weird. My wife while has worn my underwear even but if I wear hers I'm doing something wrong.

See? You're missing my point here. We've beaten this to death. When your wife raids your closet, or borrows your shorts, she's not wearing a "boy" wig, stuffing a jockstrap so it looks like she's sporting a package, or wearing something to hide her breasts. She's not wearing a fake moustache, or pretending to have hairy arms, underarms, or legs. But when you raid her closet, you make yourself out to be female in most any way you can. It's not the same thing!!!

[Emma_Forbes]

Hi All,

I want to comment on this subject and it'll probably sound a bit like a rant so my apologies before I start.

I do not believe that it is purely an issue of being forbidden in the Bible. I am a born-again fundamentalist Christian - I would like to have said 'brought up as' but that would be wholly inaccurate - who has a major issue with crossdressing and the christian lifestyle within my understanding of it. This is not because someone says that it is contrary to God's will or any other semi-religious platitude it is because I don't feel comfortable with crossdressing and God. I couldn't worship God dressed as a woman - it used to be difficult enough approaching God having thought about crossdressing sometime in the previous week.

The effect of this dichotomy is to cause me considerable difficulties. My crossdressing has already cost me my marriage, all of my so-called friends, my relationship with God, my job and pretty much my sanity. I have suffered depression for a number of years because of it. If God were not an issue then neither would my crossdressing have been.

So how do I handle it now? Quite simply by ignoring, not denying, God and the life He would have me lead. I tried for too many years and failed pretty miserably so it is not in my interest to try any further. Whether He loves me including my crossdressing I neither know nor really care because it will never be an issue again. I don't dress all the time; I don't think I want to. Do I want to be a woman? No, even though I used to wish that I would wake up in the morning as a little girl. Do I want to be free to follow my own choices? Yes - unfortunately that means that there are consequences which are very painful and I would rather avoid. That is impossible so I have to make the best of it. I have already decided on my epitaph which comes from a Vulcan proverb (who watches too much Star Trek then?) 'May you find in death, the peace you never found in life!'

There - I've become far too morbid and I'm sure that this rant barely expresses how I feel but at least I have commented.

Emma

[byrony]

And...what's your point?
btw...I'm glad that I'm not agnostic... ;)

My point is just that there are enough things to feel bad about, how you dress shouldn't be one of them.

[Sarahgurl371]

See? You're missing my point here. We've beaten this to death. When your wife raids your closet, or borrows your shorts, she's not wearing a "boy" wig, stuffing a jockstrap so it looks like she's sporting a package, or wearing something to hide her breasts. She's not wearing a fake moustache, or pretending to have hairy arms, underarms, or legs. But when you raid her closet, you make yourself out to be female in most any way you can. It's not the same thing!!!

Absolutley agree! At first its definatley about the clothes that we choose to wear. Others will focus on that. But I know that speaking for myself, the clothes let me see what I want to see, that is me as a woman. If women wore whatever type of clothing or accessories, I would wear them as well to make myself appear to be a woman. I want to peirce my ears, I do not want to do it as a guy, which is pretty acceptable in this day and age, I want to do it because I want to look and feel more like a woman, and in my mind that helps me achieve that. There is definatley a difference! Now I know that difference, know matter how many times I tell My wife the old quote "the clothes don't make the man", I know that there is more to it.:)

[KathrynW]

My point is just that there are enough things to feel bad about, how you dress shouldn't be one of them.
I dunno...
As others have also said, I don't really thing the bible has that much to do with it. As far as feeling bad about cd-ing...the battlefield is mostly in our own mind. Sure, pressure from society plays a part, but for the most part, we're the ones who make ourselves feel bad. Sounds kind of dumb, but it's true.

[byrony]

I dunno...
As others has also said, I don't really thing the bible has that much to do with it. As far as feeling bad about cd-ing...the battlefield is mostly in our own mind. Sure, pressure from society plays a part, but for the most part, we're the ones who make ourselves feel bad. Sounds kind of dumb, but it's true.

Yes I suppose you're right... I mean I used to feel guilty about it a bit until I moved to the big city, where it is much more accepted... And also, I think another part of the stigma comes from the expectation for example of the guy secretly trying on his girlfriend or whatever's own clothes instead of wearing his own, which is part of the whole stigma, in my mind at least.

[Mona]

Wow, Lots of good things being said here. I’m not sure the Bible is the source of fear and rejection though it sure doesn’t help! We CDers are at the cutting edge of society and sexuality, the ways we interact, our caring, our desire to be feminine and gentle (well most of us!) all threaten the so called normal culture because we are willing to question that norm and feel things the “norms” can’t allow themselves to feel or even recognize. Thankfully we have each other. Do you remember pre internet days?
Mona

[Gunda]

Hi All,
Quite an interesting thread. Darla, I agree with virtually all you've said about homosexuality being all to often mistakenly directly equated with CDing. However, I will take issue with your assertion that Western culture, even in the qualifying terms you made, is necessarily less accepting of alternate sexualities or the changing of classical gender roles. I'll grant you that there are plenty of bigots in the West and that things are far from perfect here for people like us, but compared with sociological and legal strictures in other areas of the globe, much of Western culture looks positively laissez faire.
The Muslim world should of course need to no great explication for one to have a good sense of how peoples in the region (or "civilization" if you prefer the "clash of civilization theory") view sexuality and gender.
In predominantly Hindhu India, homosexuality is banned as an act "against nature" in the Indian state penal code. Both Hindhu Brahmins and Muslim Ulama in the country support such a position of religious disapproval of gays into secular law. As a corollary of course, Indian TVs - called "eunuchs" - flourish but they are often feared as many have connections with organized crime and sometimes obtrusively demand payment for impromptu entertainment at weddings. In Indonesia and Malaysia, CDs and full time-TVs continue to act as soothsayers in pre-Islamic anamistic and pantheistic folk traditions but increasinly the Islamist "Dawa" movement is making life hard on them through methods ranging from coercion to beatings and threats. I imagine the growing Islamist movement in southern Thailand has no particular love for Thai "ladyboys" either. Japan is very loose regarding lifestyle behavior but classical gender roles and behavior are, depending on who you ask, still more deeply entrenched than here - numerous androgynous elements of Japanese "high culture" like males playing female characters in Noh drama and the Takarazuka players notwithstanding.
So to sum up, I guess I just mean we should evaluate culture's role in forming popular attitudes toward sexuality and gender behaviors on a case by case basis. While I don't deny the essential thrust of your argument wholesale Darla, I just thought a little elaboration was in order. I will now relinquish the soapbox.

Best to All,
Gunda

[TGMarla]

Fabulous! Gunda, you are a wealth of information. It's true that Western Culture, such that it is, has become much looser and more tolerant than some other cultures, especially muslim cultures where there has been a modern day turning back of the clock. Yet we sit here and bitch....

It could be a lot worse. In some other cultures, TiffTG's little adventure in Chicago would have gotten her arrested, stoned, tortured or worse.

[AMANDA12]

It's need more exploration.
Bible is to govern the humanity and made laws to keep all comunity in shape at that time .Like government makes laws to keep comunity in shape. But the time passes the new development took place and with the new developments we have to resuffle or rebuild out thinks.
Since our childhood we used to see girls in one type of dress and boys in another type of dress.This phenomina continues since decades.We used to see like that and that the reason we feel unusall in CD.Our eyes also genitically used to see same different dress since our father and forfather.

It is just like when some one born there is no religion but parrent gave him a religion.God made religion and parents gave the religion .I respect to all religion .Just like that if some boy'S parent will start his son wearing girls dress and if environment will be provided with some similar boys and socity he will grow in that way wearing girls dress without do ing any extra wear like wigs and panty.
I have to write more to explore more but next time .
Thnaks
Amanda