validation and being seen

[jaglover]

In another thread, posters were talking about 'validation' as a reason why we feel the need to go out while dressed.

My daughter, a philosophy student, has been going on about sound not really existing unless someone is there to hear it and light not really having a colour until it's inside our eyes etc. - so:

If I'm alone in my house and I get dressed up, am I actually cross-dressed? I might just as well be stark naked or dressed as a chicken for all the difference it makes. Couldn't one argue that we're never actually cross-dressed unless there's someone there to see it?

[SamGreen]

Is this like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it really make a noise?

Maybe with a mirror all we need is ourselves for validation? I know that I'm cross-dressed, I'm the one in a dress.

[jaglover]

Is this like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it really make a noise?

Yeah. Sorry for trying to be profound. It made sense to me...

[LeggyBecky]

There is another person in the room. The male me watches the female me and likes what he sees.

[Kristy_K]

Is this like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it really make a noise?

Maybe with a mirror all we need is ourselves for validation? I know that I'm cross-dressed, I'm the one in a dress.

Make sense to me .

[Gianna]

Interesting that there is such a range of dressing to one degree or another that changes over time and that the predominant progression is from in to out, not the other way around.

[Kate Simmons]

Hmm, It's all in the eye of the beholder if there is one. We don't all see things the same way in any case. Someone may see all of us as what the blue natives looked like on the movie Avatar. It's all relative my friend.:)

[moondog]

Let’s twist the “If a tree falls in the woods...” question around a bit, shall we?

If a man dresses in women’s clothing and nobody is there to see him, does he feel the silk panties?

Of course he does, just as the tree feels itself fall. Each being has a unique perspective of the events and the mere fact of nobody else witnessing the events does not negate the occurrence of the events.

You are the witness of your own existence and you exist for yourself. Even if you lived your entire life having no contact with any human beings you would still exist. The exterior world does not validate or solidify our lives.

I could bake up a sweet little Zen cupcake frosted with strawberry Dao and Confucius sprinkles, but just the thought of cupcakes makes my want to wear pink silk panties with lace trim and eat cupcakes, but I’m trying to lose weight so I’ll cease waxing philosophic now.

[jaglover]

Well fair do's - I'm obviously on a losing wicket here. All I know is that when I'm dressed on my own, after a few hours of getting on with my day I can literally forget I'm dressed up and, if I have nothing I need to do, I can get just as bored as when I'm not dressed. On the (rare) occasions I've spent time dressed while my wife is there, I have remained acutely aware of my appearance the whole time, even when she's pretending she can't see it.

[kimdl93]

I'd suggest your daughter seek a different major. Sound exists when any action causes vibration in a substance gas/liquid or solid. I don't hear a dog whistle, but it still makes a sound. Whether sound is heard or not is entirely irrelevant.

As for my dressing, if I dressed in a chicken suit and no one saw me, I'd still be in a chicken suit, and to that extent be closer to my poultry self that if I were not. Yes, I feel somewhat validated when I can be in the company of others while dressed. That, akin to hearing a sound, is just my response to a stimulus.

[Barbara Ella]

Oh the things Philosophy students will talk about just to talk about. She needs to get into some Sartre to really bend her mind.

I think therefore I am - or something like that. Point is that I believe that. My thought makes (validates) me. Therefore if I think (evaluate my dressing), therefore I am.


Babes

[moondog]

Well fair do's - I'm obviously on a losing wicket here. All I know is that when I'm dressed on my own, after a few hours of getting on with my day I can literally forget I'm dressed up and, if I have nothing I need to do, I can get just as bored as when I'm not dressed. On the (rare) occasions I've spent time dressed while my wife is there, I have remained acutely aware of my appearance the whole time, even when she's pretending she can't see it.

You forget you're dressed in female attire because, and I even do this, most people are poor observers and become easily bored with things quickly after the newness has worn off a bit. The presence of your wife has nothing to do with validating your state of dress, it's her REACTIONS that keep you acutely aware of your state of dress. Does her presence keep you acutely aware of how you're dressed in drab and validate your existance as a male?

[jaglover]

Does her presence keep you acutely aware of how you're dressed in drab and validate your existance as a male?

Er, yes actually. And not always in a good way.

[Sheila11]

Oh the things Philosophy students will talk about just to talk about. She needs to get into some Sartre to really bend her mind.

I think therefore I am - or something like that. Point is that I believe that. My thought makes (validates) me. Therefore if I think (evaluate my dressing), therefore I am.


Babes

Dropped Philosophy 101 in college as a freshman because I could not get my mind around the sillyness. Had to go back as a Sr and take it to graduate. I had learned how to get through the nonsense by then.

Trees go boom. I Crossdress.

[RADER]

OK I have a question for "the Doctor"
If the Cow did not die, would it have had a calf?
Inquiring minds need to know.
Rader

[Ava Tryptyk]

I'm not much of a philosopher, but you don't need other people to see you. Just look in the mirror, take a picture (or even better, a video) of yourself while dressed and there shouldn't be any lack of validation as to whether you're crossdressing.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

The theory of there being no sound if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it really isn't philosophy (totally). We hear nothing if vibrations don't bounce off our eardrums. Therefore if there is no one there then there is NO sound b/c there are no eardrums for the vibrations to hit and create noise.

Therefore, since you are there too see yourself dressed then you are validate.

[FeminineFantasy]

When I was at the park yesterday taking pictures of myself, there was this guy sitting on a picnic table watching me. He watched me until I was done. It was actually really fun. He was totally interested and when I would move around he would adjust his view on the table to keep me in view. It was really validating. In a voyeur kind of way. It was hot :D I deffy had fun and was more feminine because of it :)

[kimdl93]

One more thought I'd like to add on "validating" aspect of being out. Its not the mere presence of other people that I enjoy - it is actually interacting on a personal level. If in that interaction, I get a positive, friendly response, then the experience is definately validating. Its not that I've pased, but rather that I've been able to connect on a person-to-person basis. I definately feel more "real" after such an experience.

[FeminineFantasy]

I agree, I get the most satisfaction and validation when I interact with other people and receive a positive response. A smile, conversation, or a compliment. It really goes a long way with me. Makes me feel really good!!!

One more thought I'd like to add on "validating" aspect of being out. Its not the mere presence of other people that I enjoy - it is actually interacting on a personal level. If in that interaction, I get a positive, friendly response, then the experience is definately validating. Its not that I've pased, but rather that I've been able to connect on a person-to-person basis. I definately feel more "real" after such an experience.

[jenniferj]

Ok - since I should be working (from home), can't get into it this morning...

1. Karren, I'm disappointed in you. I expected a smart-tushie comment, but since you dropped the ball...

Bill Cosby on one of his early comedy albums (yes, on vinyl) told the story of his girlfriend who was a philosophy major. She asked the question "Why is there air?" He - Phys Ed. major- responded "Shee - everybody knows that. Air if for filling volleyballs..." (in those days you couldn't say the "brown word" even on records)

2. If we define sound as the physical pressure waves transmitted through the air caused by the vibrations of the falling tree and impacted ground, of course it is there whether someone is present to hear it or not. Certainly the birds in the falling tree heard it.

3. If we define sound as the intellectual recognition process within one's brain of "oh those pressure waves are telling me a tree has fallen", then there is no sound unless some is there to experience it.

4. Why do we hear the Deathstar explode? There is no air to carry the sound...

5. But back to point, humans are social animals. We want to be loved and accepted. We want to be accepted and welcomed for what we are. We want others to smile when they see us. We want to know that we're OK, even though we fear we might not be.

I certainly don't come close to passing (I'm huge, and old, and still walk like a aging college football player) but I do dress well. I am sure that 90% of the people walking down Broadway (NYC) don't even notice me. I hear occasional catcalls, but I also receive smiles from other women. Women have struck up conversations on the subway ("I love your top - wherever did you get it") and have adjusted my bra straps in the ladies' room at the opera. A young mother pushing a stroller with her baby in a parking lot once returned my smile with the warmest, most wonderful smile I have ever seen.

And once as the opera crowd was dispersing, I stood in my box in my long, sleek gown and stretched my back and torso ( I fear I had gone overboard on the corset which had become quite uncomfortable in the closing aria ) and afterwards noticed a man a couple of boxes away who had obviously been watching me. He smiled and offered a small nod/head bow.

That's why I go out as JJ.

-jj

[moondog]

Er, yes actually. And not always in a good way.

Well said. My hat is off to you. ;-)

[Sarah Doepner]

Here is a test. Look at your driver license and see if the sex box is checked "M". Next look at the size tag on your clothes to see if it says "Ladies M or L or XL". Yep, if that's what you find you're a crossdresser. My question is why do you need someone else to validate what you are doing? We play enough mind games with ourselves just getting through this gender maddness, why had a layer of philosophy to the mix? Don't read philosophy, read Cosmo.

[Susan_Xdress]

The members here never cease to amaze me, and that is precisely why I joined. I don’t think there is a question under the sun that this forum doesn’t tackle without intellect and humor. Some days it is wonderful to just read the comments, and count myself fortunate that I am in good company.

[Slo Jo]

Does a Bear... Awesome discussions in Philosophy. Senior High P (Mr. Cornelius-Really!) pushed many of us to higher levels of acceptance of the Human Condition and Others. Lucky us! I feel that after outing himself to me, SO is more relaxed and our communication has been more meaningful as I have posted earlier. He was hiding and alone for so long. I love that he trusts me and I get to witness his transformation and help with having good experiences safely. ALARMS!! Strategy around young children? Bears Don't Do That! Tee Hee

[Asche]

Most of the answers I've seen have been way too philosophical.

IM-not-so-HO, the most important reason is that we are social animals. On a psychic level, we can barely even exist except in relation to other people. (Consider the effects of solitary confinement, shunning, or long-term physical isolation.) We have an inborn need to be seen for who we are, and the parts of us that we cannot allow to be seen tend to atropy or fester. That's the principle behind mind control: if you force a person to convincingly act as if s/he believes X for long enough, s/he will end up actually believing it -- the actor become the role.

That's why we need for someone, at least -- a friend, an SO, a therapist, the denizens of CD.com -- to recognize this part of ourselves, or else we'll go crazy. It's not even necessary for them to approve, just to know that they see it, even if they say we'll go to Hell for it. And for some of us, one person is enough. For others -- well, that's what Jerry Springer's show is for :)

(YMMV, of course. I'm sure that there are _some_ people out there who crossdress, or do other things, which they are perfectly happy to keep forever secret from the entire human race. They make great spies.)

[pattyv]

Sam-you took the words out of my mouth.

[Karren H]

If you were alone in the woods... Wearing women's clothes.... Making no sound, with your eyes closed... never looked in the mirror then no..... it's not philosophically crossdressing.... it would just be very very strange!!

[suchacutie]

Just to weigh in: Light has a "color" all by itself, and that's called it's frequency. It knows what it's frequency is without us telling it :)

Likewise, I know I'm Tina without anyone telling me about it!

However, Tina's ego...well that's another thing altogether :)

tina

[Diane Smith]

Between the defecating bears and the falling trees, I think I'd just as soon stay out of the woods. It's too darned hard to walk wearing stockings and heels in there.

- Diane

[Beverley Sims]

I would get very cross if no one could see me dressed, and the only thing I have had to validate lately is a train ticket.
All the philosophists I know are theorists anyway.
My theory is that if you are naked or dressed in the gender you think you are you are not cross dressed.
This reply makes about as much sense as the original post.

[Marie-Elise]

Favorite quote about philosophy:

Alvy Singer: What's the difference? It's all mental masturbation.
Annie Hall: Oh, well, now we're finally getting to a subject you know something about.
Alvy Singer: Hey, don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love.

[RenneB]

Nope, these clothes that I put on and all the other stuff, make me feel at ease. Litterally, when fully outfitted, I'll sit back in my office chair and just close my eyes and relax with a heavy sigh... Then I'll get up and head off to do my daily chores...shopping, post office, grocery shopping, did I say shopping??

Renne.....

[taís]

what? no mention to Schrödinger's cat yet??

(hint: the cat is both alive, dead and crossdressed.)

[VanIsle]

If a man says something and there's no woman to hear him, is he still wrong? :)

[Aloha Jayne]

what? no mention to Schrödinger's cat yet??

(hint: the cat is both alive, dead and crossdressed.)

Schrodinger's cat. There, I mentioned it.

I've given a lot of thought to this validation argument, all philosophy aside. Why do we dress, and what do we get out of it? Of all the times I have dressed, I have only dressed in front of someone once, but I still love doing it. But I think it is wonderful that I can become comfortable enough while I'm dressed that I don't even think about it. Tells me that I have become accustomed to this other skin.

But going out into the world and have people see you as the other gender, has to be a great feeling. It tells us that we are as pretty as we want to be, and others see us that way. Ok, we can tell ourselves that's what it means. Everyone wants to have their feelings validated. It's very human nature. But what I want, is to just be able to be myself in and out of public. To be able to wear a dress without a wig or make up, and have no one notice or care would be my validation. I will never be able to fool anyone into thinking I'm a woman, and that is ok. I just don't want the crap kicked out of me because I have my nails done, and wear dangly earrings.

[SamGreen]

Maybe we've missed JagLover's point. Jag, you said that you actually forget what you are actually wearing over the course of the day. Does that mean that you are ultimately comfortable in doing what you do? Isn't that the ultimate validation?

S.

[Brenda79135]

Most of this type thinking is by people that don't understand the concept of physics. If you believe there is no color until you open your eyes, why do you sunburn while laying out in your swimsuit. UV is not visible, therefore it does not exsist. The same can be said for your cell phone. It can't work because (as a human) you can't preceive the radio waves that drive it. As for the tree falling in the woods, who cares except the person the tree fell on. This concept goes along with the CDing. Just because someone is not there to see or preceive you doing it does not mean that you aren't.

[jaglover]

Maybe we've missed JagLover's point. Jag, you said that you actually forget what you are actually wearing over the course of the day. Does that mean that you are ultimately comfortable in doing what you do? Isn't that the ultimate validation?

S.
Quite right of course and yes, I do feel that's true. But my OP had to do with my exploration of why it would make such a difference in my life if I was 'out' to my family (i.e. my teenage kids). Of course there would be the 'convenience' of not having to hide it any more, and the joy of being able to be dressed a lot more often, but also it would be a very important emotional thing and I would feel different in myself I'm sure.

By the way Sam, thanks loads for calling me 'Jag'! I registered here with a nonsense handle out of a paranoid need for anonymity but maybe I'll be 'Jag' now for a while. I'm sure there are worse names - and I'm certainly a Lover not a fighter...

Jag

[jaglover]

Most of this type thinking is by people that don't understand the concept of physics.

Ah, but my daughter's teacher would say that if you try to answer these questions using physics you're not understanding the concept of philosophy...

Jag

ps: I didn't go to university and my A levels were a long time ago but they were Maths, Mechanics, Chemistry - and Physics.

[alice clair]

if a man is alone in the forest and says something is he still wrong? Yes according to most women he would still be wrong!

[jillleanne]

Philosophically speaking, I do hope you are ready for some really off the wall stuff from her. You know, things that make you say, " Huh? What planet are you from?"

[jaglover]

Philosophically speaking, I do hope you are ready for some really off the wall stuff from her. You know, things that make you say, " Huh? What planet are you from?"

She's very level-headed and also inherited a sarcastic attitude from me (and probably also from Chandler in Friends). Last night I asked her how was her day and she shrugged and said "Great. Apparently nothing even exists now."

[KayleeDahl]

On a psychic level, we can barely even exist except in relation to other people. (Consider the effects of solitary confinement, shunning, or long-term physical isolation.) We have an inborn need to be seen for who we are, and the parts of us that we cannot allow to be seen tend to atropy or fester.

I've to have often thought about this topic, more from a psychological direction though. Dr. Lin Fraiser goes into this in depth in one of her papers:

How does the self develop when it is unseen? How does it develop when, in fact, other
people see who the self is not and actually validate, reinforce and mirror what is
experienced as a false-self? And how does the invisible self learn to relate, connect and trust others? - http://linfraser.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DepthpsychotherapySRT.pdf

In this she is referring to the development of the female self without it being accurately mirrored back to the person (due to being a male in a binary gender system) and the effects that this has on the development of self. Essentially, that the real self cannot develop without mirroring - without peers - which is one of the terrific things that this forum provides - mirroring of a self that can't or won't be shared with the world at large.

Hugs!
Kaylee

[SamGreen]

By the way Sam, thanks loads for calling me 'Jag'! I registered here with a nonsense handle out of a paranoid need for anonymity but maybe I'll be 'Jag' now for a while. I'm sure there are worse names - and I'm certainly a Lover not a fighter...

Jag

You could just be JL?

[Rachel Newark]

Professor of High Energy Physics goes to the Bursar and asks for 10 million ( currency unit of your choice) to buy a larger, more powerful particle accelerator
"10 million", gasps the Bursar, " why can't you physicists be like the mathematicians? All they need is a big pad of paper, some sharp pencils and a waste-paper bin"
" or the Philosophy department, they don't have a waste-paper bin!"

Can't you tell I've never taken a class in Philosophy :-)

Rachel Newark

[Beverley Sims]

If this thread can be thought of as a train.(AMTRAK) I think it has been derailed.

[HannahF6]

Is this like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it really make a noise?

That quote always reminds me of a joke I heard once....

If a man is speaking in the forest and there is no woman around to hear him. Is he still wrong?

Hannah

[jillleanne]

Is this really a thread if no one reads it?

"Huh? What planet are you from?"

[SamGreen]

If this thread can be thought of as a train.(AMTRAK) I think it has been derailed.

STOP THE THREAD! Please! For the love of all that is warm and fuzzy with a high heel or two on top!!!!!! HAHAHA.

[Nigella]

Where this thread has gone, nobody knows it certainly has wandered away from its original intent