An open letter to all

[Danni Bear]

This is an open letter to all who identify with any label on this board !!

Why do we let what is really insignificent work us up so vehemently. Who really cares what you call yourself except you? Does it affect how you see yourself or change who you are? If so, you have more problems that just gender related ones.

I will probably catch Holy H*** from some over this. Oh well, can't be helped. I've been on this forum for a while though very little over the last year due to Dr's and an over-protective husband. What I have read in the last month or so and going back and reading a lot of the previous threads appals me. I see bickering,name calling,and a host of other issues. These have always occured here and on other boards but they appear to be getting worse. This has always been a board that prided itself on trying to avoid those antics that charactize the other sites that abound on the web. Diversity in thought was always welcome here,all opinions were sought,debates were usually friendly. That isn't the way I see it now.

This was a place of friends and fellowship. A place to seek answers,to find solace when things go wrong. A place to celebrate small steps,or major milestones on our respective journies. A place to rest,to restore confidence and hope in tomorrow. Too many times now that is no longer true. What has happened? Have we become the same as those who in their ignorance ridicule and prejudge us? We appear to be becoming our own worst enemies.

Is there hope for us? I sincerly hope so. As goes any one of us,so goes all eventually. We are a minority in this world,one that many would like to see destroyed. Lets not do it for them, make them work for it. As men and women we owe it to ourselves and to those that come after us to leave this a better place than when we arrived.

Lets be friends and family again. No longer can we afford the divisive rhetoric,the abyss that seperates our parts. We have to be whole to survive and succeed in our journey. That is what truly matters. The journey undertaken by all, young or old, Male or Female, cisgendered or transgendered. To be who and what our creator intended for each of us.


Danni Bear

[Melody Moore]

Thank you Danni,

that was nicely put and needed to be said, so you won't get any flack from me sis.

:hugs:

Oh by the way, I was talking to some people and they were saying how the trans
community use to stick so much more closely together years ago, drag queens &
transsexuals use to be very supportive of each other. However now there are rifts
going on, especially since the inclusion of transgender and non conforming people
in the new WPATH Standards of Care. So support groups that were only exclusive
to the transsexual community have been challenged and had to undergo a change
of policy to best support the community. But instead this inclusion has divided the
community and many people don't like being put into the same basket & labelled.

I am currently working on a new project to secure funding to help my group because
of the lack of understanding and acceptance of gender diversity in my local community.

So I guess my main point is, this seems to be a widespread problem and not just localised
to this forum. Hopefully others here can learn to be more tolerant and understanding of the
different gender identities and their perspectives and points of view & learn from each other.

[Aloha Jayne]

Well said Danni Bear. I have avoided forums for years for this very reason. I hate arguing and name calling. But some users of forums don't enjoy themselves unless theyre flaming and getting flamed. Life is way too serious, lighten up already!

btw, wife is from Lake Chuck, just down I10 from the Golden Triangle.

[AllieSF]

Danni, we both started about the same time in 2007. To me, this site is still about the same. One day it is one hot topic and the next day it is another. I haven't really noticed an increase in the bickering and name calling. There are a lot of people here who always have to get the last word in, who feel that their opinion is the only one, and then start to talk down to anyone else who disagrees with them citing their extensive experience on the topic and inferring that the other antagonist's experience doesn't count. I have seen it within one label segment and also between the label segments. I see the occasional newbie who comes here and has nothing but negative comments about everything. They shoot from the hip and talk down to everyone. Then you have the people who post one liners to someone's serious post in such a sarcastic way that they invite negative feedback which is then attributed to the group versus that one line wizard. They come lay a turd in a good thread and then probably sit back and watch it all hit the proverbial fan with a smile on their face. Then you have the maturing of the members as they learn so much from just being here and sometimes get short tempered when someone makes a comment contrary to what they believe and have learned here. I know that I have my hot topics and will sometimes defend my beliefs even when a comment is not directed at me personally. It is only human nature.

I have seen a select few GG's get so insensitive that you wonder why they are even here. TS's who think that there way is the only way and if you haven't walked in their specific shoes then you know nothing and your opinion is worthless. MtF's that exhibit more male attributes than female ones, including CD's, TG's and TS's. You get people saying "Not another pantie thread", forgetting that when they first started here they may have participated in a lot of those threads, which they now deem demeaning to the overall "cause". I can go on and on.

The point being, we really are almost a mirror image with the greater real world outside this site with all the good and bad in understanding, bigotry, bias, the way we express ourselves, level of education and income, etc. Since we depend on the written word here, not the oral one combined with facial expressions and body language, what one writes can so easily be misinterpreted (I am guilty of that occasionally) and lead to those heated discussions that eventually lead to good serious threads being shut down.

I have read pleas for understanding similar to yours in some of those good serious threads gone bad, with no results. I guess it is just the nature of a forum where membership is open to the whole cross section of our overall LGBT group, where there are a lot of sensitive but good topics to discuss by taking different approaches to bringing up the topic, where as said above we have a general cross section of society as a whole, and where the admins and mods are unpaid volunteers (as far as I know) who also have a life of their own, or at least used to before assuming their role in working for this site. Overall, I think we all do a good job here trying to make it work out for the best. I also believe that having serious discussions on controversial topics is good for all of us, as long as the posters follow your advice, which many seem to have all kinds of difficulties doing. Maybe this thread will help. Only time will tell.

[Danni Bear]

thank you Allie

I don't want anybody to take what I wrote wrong. bad habits and manners are hard to break.

Danni

[DanaR]

.................... bad habits and manners are hard to break. Danni

I think that whoever you are, you would like to think that your thinking is right; which it might be for you, but not for everyone else.

[Danni Bear]

not necessarily Dana, but having respect for everyone was the way I was raised and it is still the way I try to react.

manners and habits are easily formed and hard to change

Danni


societal norms are different in different cultures

[DanaR]

.................having respect for everyone was the way I was raised and it is still the way I try to react. manners and habits are easily formed and hard to change.............Danni

societal norms are different in different cultures
I was raised the same way, but it appears that society has change a lot, with regard to being respectful of others. The internet seems to have something to do with this as well.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Welcome to message board land,,

The most insightful response is that this is the nature of this medium. It will not change...
If we all met for coffee the discussion would be very different. But we can't. The people i've met, including katesback have been wonderful and real in person..if she is not your cup of tea, ignore her. If you hate what she says, i say go for it, and let her have it right between the eyes...

If everyone was honest about themselves (to me this is a big problem here) this would all be very different.

Let's all be friends? I thought we were.
I "fight" with my friends all the time over things alot smaller than anything discussed here.....and then we go have fun and enjoy each other

I know what i went through, i know what people i've helped are going through... I'm always respectful, but i will not stop sharply stating my point of view..
Nobodies perfect and i'm sure ive pissed some people off....well guess what, i ran businesses, i pissed alot of people off, and i helped alot of people too, you gotta crack some eggs sometimes...

My biggest frustration is hypocrisy and dishonesty...as allie points out...the amount of times people whine about exclusion but then do the same thing is amazing..there are many fakes lurking around and i've been hurt here a number of times..

also when discussing matters about whether to spend $100'000s and undergo painful and risky surgical procedures, there is ALOT on the table... this forum is NOTHING compared to the trials of life if you go down this path, and people are well served to grow a thick skin.. if you all have is "go read this website" that's fine, but there is so much more than that...
the EXPERIENCE of women that have done this is invaluable..and if you can't get it in your area, coming here can be a life saver..even with bickering..

btw
I would also like to say that i hope there is an end to war and poverty..


there is an old joke that i will change for this forum

Older tg jewish woman, walking down the beach... finds a genie bottle, giant magical creature comes out and thanks her...I grant you ONE WISH...she says...hmmm....Pls make peace in the Middle East..i want my relatives and all people there to live happily together forever...the genie says...Sorry , i need a realistic wish..

she thinks, says...ok, then how about putting an end to disagreements and flame wars on my cd.com forums???? the genie says......."hmmm....do you have a map of the middle east?"

[Aprilrain]

Danni I agree we would all be better served if we tried to be more congenial. Personally I think if a person sticks to sharing their experience with a subject rather than their opinion then there is nothing to argue about. Who am I to say the experience you had was wrong? We could go back and forth forever with opinions though. However that being said there will always be people who can't wait to share their opinion on a topic, some even go out of their way to make sure their opinion is as infamitory as possible. Perhaps they do this because it is entertaining for them perhaps that is just their personality or maybe something else is going on in that persons life, I know I've had bad days where I just snaped at people for no good reason. There are many diverse points of view here on a website with a seemingly narrow focus, the focus is not as narrow as it might appear to be though. We have CDs and GGs and TSes, M2Fs & F2Ms, and has been displayed over and over theses groups don't always see eye to eye nor can they comprehend the others struggles. it's easy for a person caught up in their own personal frustrations to make comments that might be misinterpreted by anyone of these other groups. Anyway it is what it is, I don't think it's neccarily a bad thing when a thread turns into a flame war as people's true colors come out and if you stick around long enough you learn who is who.
As I have heard some of our more vocal member say you must develop a thick skin if you are going to travel down the TS road and if you can't take the heat here than forget about real life!

[Krististeph]

Hi Danni- i doubt you'll get any vehement disagreement, you are correct.

Personally, i pay too much attention to what others think, but this is partly my fault- and i want to connect and really drive my clients and students, so i've got some significant investiture in my drab image.

I wish it did not matter, but for now, i cannot join the two, quite possibly due to my own weakness and fear.

But i agree 100%- I am NOT a CD, I am me, whatever that is- i CD, and do a lot of other things- i define my life- (even if part of it is being a chicken) labels do not define me.

I'd venture to bet that is most of us here, as well.

Some of the name calling, well, some of it here may be friendly teasing between friends- Karren and I have a dep appreciation of sarcasm and snarkasm- it is not meant as anything mean- but actually as an inclusion of someone who either knows us well enough not to be offended or to someone who can see the point of the comment, humor- ala Francois-Marie Arouet (Voltaire)'s Candide. Hopefully we will not end up in prison for it...

I've been jumped on for some things i have said, and usually i immediately see a point of view i had not considered. While this is valid, often, the person complaining could do well to widen thier points of view as well.

had a long set of conversations with a nun (started on another network), and we emailed privately for months. i was opposing many of the beliefs she held true and dear, adn despite my status as an ex-catholic, I understood and appreciated much of what she stood for. We both agreed that our views are quite opposed, but appreciated the irony of the fact that we had a heck of a lot more in common than at first blush. (didn't mention TG or CD, though she probably assumed i was gay, how else could a man care about the prettier things in life?) What ever.

Hang in there Danni - we are usually better than we appear, but it takes lots of work to bring it out and imporove things- just like ti takes lots of work to stay married for 20 years. I love my wife, we are a great match, but it takes loads of work, on both our parts.

kristi

[RachelOKC]

And all this is exactly why I'm loathe to post much of real significance here. I'm generally happy to quietly lurk in these threads and mine for useful nuggets, but why would I want to bare my inner feelings when most of what you get in return is sniping and flaming? Why would I want to open up only to be cut down? Forget it...there's little real support here on this TS forum. Thank goodness that I have real life friends, a therapist, and groups that I can go to in person for support. It's sad however that there are a lot of people who don't have that advantage that I do and must bear with mounds and mounds of crap here. It must be terribly discouraging at times.

To whomever sees themselves in this...You might think you are doing someone a favor when you give them a harsh "reality check"...you're not. You might think you're being helpful when you label someone's gender identity for them...you're not. You might think you're the arbiter of what's right and wrong in all trannydom...you're not. You're just a person on a message board with an opinion.

You are most certainly entitiled to those opinions and you're entitled to disagree with others - even vehemently at times. But if you start to come across as uncivil, didactic, or trannier-than-thou then you are not going to be well respected. It simply doesn't matter if you're supposedly the nicest person in real life, your words on this forum define who you are here and color you elsewhere.

A big part of my transition has been in learning to not be too concerned with what people think of me. But I will say that I would much rather be thought of as a nice person than as a bitch.

[Bree-asaurus]

Yeah... It's just how the internet is... Everyone wants to convince everyone else of their point of view, but they don't take the time to understand anyone else's. The same people in a public setting wouldn't bicker like we do on here.

I'm kind of getting tired of it. I've contemplated leaving this forum a couple times because of all the fighting, but I always stick around. And then I get caught up in the arguments again. Usually I come in after the bickering has already began, trying to clarify what some people have already said... but I'm just another ***hole with an opinion so it never really helps.

Mneh... maybe I'll just state my opinion or give my advice and run away to never reply again... leaving a note in my footer saying if you want to tell me how wrong I am, PM me rather than destroying the thread by arguing over who's opinion is right.


To whomever sees themselves in this...You might think you are doing someone a favor when you give them a harsh "reality check"...you're not. You might think you're being helpful when you label someone's gender identity for them...you're not. You might think you're the arbiter of what's right and wrong in all trannydom...you're not. You're just a person on a message board with an opinion.

But this is what I'm talking about. Why not let people just state their opinions without arguing if they are right or not in doing so? If I give someone advice that you disagree with, why not just let it be? You can share your advice and so can everyone else. Let the OP decide who they're going to listen to and who's advice is really doing them a favor.

[Traci Elizabeth]

While I agree with the basic premises Danni Bear expresses, and it would be nice to live in such a utopian space on here but I am more inclines to agree with Kaitlyn Michele.

She speaks the realities of communication with mostly unknown respondents all coming from different situations. We have folks on here who appear to be saints 90% of the time and we have folks who are jackasses 90% of the time and everything in between.

We can not select who is on here. Therefore, it is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts, spirited arguments, and people in the shadows, people genuinely seeking guidance, and everything in between.

Personally, I like spirited debate and augments at times. It keeps things hopping. How dull this place would be if we all curtsied while wearing our Shirley Temple dress and were full of nothing but "sweetness." That surely does not prepare anyone for the real world. In the real world you are going to meet people you dislike and the same thing on here.

That's all I have to say!

[Bree-asaurus]

Personally, I like spirited debate and augments at times. It keeps things hopping. How dull this place would be if we all curtsied while wearing our Shirley Temple dress and were full of nothing but "sweetness." That surely does not prepare anyone for the real world. In the real world you are going to meet people you dislike and the same thing on here.

I kind of agree with you here. I sometimes enjoy when we're debating our opinions. It just gets out of hand a lot and people start getting offended and declaring who has the right to speak and who doesn't. Again... tis the nature of the internet.

Wouldn't it be kind of hilarious if this thread turns into a huge fight as well? :P

[ReineD]

Wouldn't it be kind of hilarious if this thread turns into a huge fight as well? :P

If it does, this thread will be closed.

This board has rules for good conduct and I'd like to point everyone to this specific rule:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_flaming

[PaulaAnn]

I don't give a rat's butt about labels ...we are what we are . My view is that we are here as sisters to help and support each other ....sometimes we will disagree on many aspects of our role in this diverse company; but that's life ....if you disagree with something , either say so in a proper manner or ignore it . Our journey is difficult enough ........
Paula.

[Tara Bordeaux]

I'm fairly new to the forum and the whole scene as well but I've noticed some animosity from TS people towards CD's. Not everyone, but seen a couple good examples of it.

[Julia_in_Pa]

I do gain some insight and knowledge into others lives from being on here.
My everyday life doesn't include any trans people other than who is on this forum.
No interaction with the trans community in reality tends to keep my life very evenly keeled but also very boring.
People at my work are disgustingly boring, introverted and mousey. I just love to give them a rash of SH*t and smack them around due to them being socially inept.

I find all of you here to be not only extremely interesting but also my friends.
There is no lack of interesting subject matter for me to comment on and to dissect as it pertains to my own life.

Thank you all for being here.


Julia

[Melody Moore]

There is a lot of truth and great advice in this thread about gender transition and dealing
with other people and their rude and bigoted comments. And at the end of the day you
cannot really shouldn't give a damn about what other people think. Now when I read some
of the rude comments from certain members made to other new members on this forum,
I just roll my eyes & think to myself "Here we go again, another Baptism by Fire" for some
poor unsuspecting soul who is simply trying to find themselves here. Not everyone is as tough
as what I am, I can take it, but I am very fearful for other fragile souls who can be pushed over
the edge because they think of themselves negatively because of something someone has said.

I think when we start transition we all have to go through 'bootcamp' to properly prepare ourselves, but
at the same time I don't feel it is fair that members here are being bullied, abused & vilified and slapped
with derogatory labels such as "Tranny", "Chick with a Dick", "*******", "Ladyboy" etc, even if is generally
implied towards other members of this forum. When it happens I think its time for some serious disciplinary
action. Some have no issues with these terms while others are seriously offended, so there is no denying
the fact that using these terms offends others, so that needs to be taken into account here really.

It's hypocritical that we are trying to stop society from using these terms as derogatory slurs, but we
will never succeed as long as we allow this to go on in our own communities. In my country it is against
the law to vilify me in this way, so this also should be taken into account by community administrators
and group leaders. If a member of my group called another member any of these derogatory names, they
would be immediately banned from all activities with the group. So I would like to see this same type of
disciplinary action happen in online communities because that is the way to get the message through here.

Zero tolerance for transphobia & the vilification of other members in our communities!

[Traci Elizabeth]

Wouldn't it be kind of hilarious if this thread turns into a huge fight as well? :P



OMG! That is hilarious! .

[Melody Moore]

Wouldn't it be kind of hilarious if this thread turns into a huge fight as well? :P


OMG! That is hilarious! .
Isn't that how these discussions always end?

SSDD :heehee:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

..You might think you are doing someone a favor when you give them a harsh "reality check"...you're not. You might think you're being helpful when you label someone's gender identity for them...you're not. You might think you're the arbiter of what's right and wrong in all trannydom...
.

I agree with much of this post, but I dont agree with this highlighted part at all...in fact, one of the most valuable things someone can get here is a harsh reality check...and that doesn't make me the arbiter of anything...

[Misti]

This is an open letter to all who identify with any label on this board! I will probably catch Holy H*** from some over this. Danni Bear

Not from me you won't, Danni Bear. You have expressed very beautifully my feelings about this forum. MOF I have come close to leaving in disgust on at least 2 separate occasions because of the very points you make herein.

I am here on this forum simply to learn about my crazy mixed up, "totally alien self," and what is going on inside me right now (???), not to get slammed/dissed, etc., for my naivity and/or ignorance in something as foreign/different/dangerous to my "genetic makeup" as light is to day, oil is to water, a lighted match is to a dynamite fuse, et al.? And, thank the Dear Lord, I am getting that help; so, thank you all very much, and Damn, do I need it...

:2c: Thanks for a much needed spanking, er, shedding of light on a very sensitive subject to yours truly, Danni.

L&R,
M.

[KarenCDFL]

Hi Danni,

Very well said.

I also keep a lot of my personal thoughts to myself. Many here ask questions like how do I look. Do I say the truth?

I don't even respond.

Most people cannot take any kind of criticism and I know there are times when I am guilty of that as well.

My biggest issue with the people here and the GLBT community (of which we are supposedly a part of) at large is the true fact that this group is begging for all of its worth to be accepted in our society and the fact of the matter is , you can use the 4 letters GLBT to form a group but it is actually four separate groups that are continually dissing each other.

The Lesbian and Gay communities simply hate people who are trans-gender as a whole. Trans-gender people have a negative view of Cross Dressers.

I am somewhere in the middle of being Trans-gender and a Cross-dresser and I would love to be able to go out and about, hang with my family and friends dressed in the way I truly feel. That is never going to happen.

All of us no matter what, just want to be accepted as "normal" in society but for now, that is not going to happen.

I have had the "guy in a dress BS" happen to me personally at Gender Clubs/Bars and Fetish Parties on more than one occasion.

Gay, Lesbian and Trans-gender people just look at Cross Dressers as "Guys in a Dress" and all they do is scorn the Cross Dressers. It is just the way it is.

So, how can any of the people in these communities ask for acceptance when they don't accept people who are different then them.

Unfortunately, it still boils down to that there is a minimum of dislike to a maximum of hate to anyone who is different.

I try my best not to let those bigotries affect my life but as others in this Forum and world, we were raised that way.

The main reason that I am a life long atheist is because as a child my religious school teachers told me that I should never play or do business with anyone who was not my religion. I walked out of the class and never went back.

I know I have been spouting and as Danni said, I did not post this to be accepted, just to say how I feel.

People are just way to touchy to be able to accept more than their own.

Anyway, enough babbling for today.

[RachelOKC]

I agree with much of this post, but I dont agree with this highlighted part at all...in fact, one of the most valuable things someone can get here is a harsh reality check...and that doesn't make me the arbiter of anything...

Is it anyone's responsibility to give a reality check, especially when unsolicited? I'm doubtful. If people want to speak from their own experience, then by all means do so. But that experience isn't what happened or will happen to everyone else...it's simply one's own experience. It strikes me that most so called reality checks on this forum are NOT an accounting of one's own experience, they're just scare stories or an attempt to belittle someone else.

Second, what help is it to label someone's gender identity for them? I don't think any of us can or should speak for anyone but ourselves in this regard. I think Kaitlyn is quite measured in trying to get people to think about what may inform a gender identity, and I believe she does so without affixing a label. Some others...well, not so much.

If people have never looked up support group guidelines, I suggest giving it a google. Obviously, not all are applicable here but they're quite good rules for civil discussion.

[Bree-asaurus]

Is it anyone's responsibility to give a reality check, especially when unsolicited? I'm doubtful. If people want to speak from their own experience, then by all means do so. But that experience isn't what happened or will happen to everyone else...it's simply one's own experience. It strikes me that most so called reality checks on this forum are NOT an accounting of one's own experience, they're just scare stories or an attempt to belittle someone else.

Yes, yes yes yes YES it is anyone's responsibility if they want to share their opinion. A reality check is just a fancy term for a blunt opinion. There's nothing in the rules that states "Thou shalt not reality check members of the forum."

Again, we can share experience, advice, opinions, whatever we want as long as it abides by the rules of the forum. Which means be respectful of others, don't flame, etc. THIS is the part people need to remember.

Even the sharing of experiences is full of opinions. If you don't want to hear people's opinions, maybe you should become a social recluse.

[RachelOKC]

Yes, yes yes yes YES it is anyone's responsibility if they want to share their opinion. A reality check is just a fancy term for a blunt opinion. There's nothing in the rules that states "Thou shalt not reality check members of the forum."

Again, we can share experience, advice, opinions, whatever we want as long as it abides by the rules of the forum. Which means be respectful of others, don't flame, etc. THIS is the part people need to remember.

Even the sharing of experiences is full of opinions. If you don't want to hear people's opinions, maybe you should become a social recluse.

I think you twist my words and take wrong conclusions, but no matter. Personally Bree, I'd rather not be on the recieving end of one of your reality checks but it is certainly your right to offer one. The real question is whether you should. Once again we'll just have to disagree and your opinions are noted.

Thanks for the unsolicited advice on becoming a social recluse...that statement sounds so respectful. ;)

[Bree-asaurus]

I think you twist my words and take wrong conclusions, but no matter. Personally Bree, I'd rather not be on the recieving end of one of your reality checks but it is certainly your right to offer one. The real question is whether you should. Once again we'll just have to disagree and your opinions are noted.

Thanks for the unsolicited advice on becoming a social recluse...that statement sounds so respectful. ;)

If I am not understanding you correctly, why don't you elaborate instead of getting defensive?

If you agree that it is my right to share my opinion, then that's that... what's the problem? We don't have the opinion police here to say who's opinion is worth sharing and who's isn't. I just don't understand what you're saying at all. If the "real question" is whether I should share my opinion... the answer is yes. If you don't like it... you are more than welcome to disregard it. You can't go through life telling people "please don't share your opinion with me unless I deem that your opinion is okay with me." I mean... you CAN... but have fun with that... lol

[AllieSF]

Danni, where are you when we need you? See, it has started already in a thread all about being nice, in your thread!

[Bree-asaurus]

Danni, where are you when we need you? See, it has started already in a thread all about being nice, in your thread!

LOL, I'm actually done with Rachel, so no worries. I don't know what she's talking about... maybe she wants us all to take an online course to teach certain people, as decided by her, to censor their opinions because they are more or less important or something... I dunno... People aren't going to walk on eggshells all the time for her and she just needs to get used to it.

[RachelOKC]

If you don't understand what I've said, please reread.

Rightfully or wrongfully, I've been accused of my own nastiness / harshness a time or two on this forum so I'm not immune. Mea culpa.

Anyhoo, keep sharing. Keep opining. Try to be nice, kiddies!

[Aprilrain]

A harsh opinion is one thing an outright insult is another (I'm not talking about anyone in this thread). For instance telling someone you think they are not TS because of this that or the other fine your opinion. Telling them to go prostitute themselves is an uncalled for insult and is purposefully inflammatory!

[ReineD]

This topic has once again strayed away from a concept discussion, to bickering among individual members. If you want to do this, then please do so via PM or in the Safe Haven section.

Any member not part of the clique would feel intimidated to jump into this.

Thread closed for now. I'll leave it up to the section mods to decide whether or not they want to move it to Safe Haven so that you can continue your bickering there.