Hidden Subtle Prejudice

[Beth-Lock]

While I have been treated generally well by others, with a few glaring exception, even when you feel accepted, disquieting little signs and signals can surface, which point to either prejudice or a slowness for the public to be educated that tranwomen need to be accepted, simply as women, without for example, the hyphenated 'trans-", added. There are some of course who do not want gender correction surgery and many of them glory in being transwomen, or even make a profession of being trannies. But most of us do not want to go that route, but just be accepted at face value, as women, and we try hard to assimilate.

What do I mean? One example, is when I went to the hospital emergency to be treated for an infected thumb. (Be careful how closely you trim your nails on the side!) On the sheet the medical persoinnel fill in, right at the top, in big block letters was the word "MALE." Of course, my medicare card still had the "m" on it, unlike my driver's licence that has already been changed. But I personally fail to see what treating an infected thumb has to do with gender or sex or anything like that. I think it betrays a sort of subtle, unspoken prejudice, though I was treated well, face-to-face by the medical personnel, including Dr. Ibrahim, who I hasten to add did not write the offending word on the chart.

Another example, occurred at the church where I have been accepted very smoothly, and even invited to join the women's groups. Some people there of course knew, as I had told them I was not born a wowan, but was a woman by choice, and others knew me before I transitioned. I was a little shocked to find out that those who knew were not keeping it confidential, and I worried that a little buzz of gossip was circulating behind my back. In my opinion, that was totally unnecessary, and has now led me to seriously consider leaving the church and starting from scratch somewhere else or just not attending church. I fear some regard me as something between a novelty and a freak. I just wanted to fit in, and do so as a woman.

My therapist said that the problem is, a lot more education needs to be done. At the same time, the media, print and electronic, often try to mis-educate the public, by exploiting the subject for its sensational value, to make money off the plight they want to inflict on us.

I had a personal experience of this when a woman transitioning in place, being fairly well accepted at my old church as a woman, was the viictim of a scandle mongering magazine, looking for a little article to pep up their sales. (Eventually they went under.) They phoned the head of the women's groups at the church and started the conversation by saying, "I hear you have a problem at St. ...." The woman responding replied by saying that there was no problem, and the journalist moved on to talk to the Minister, who also was totally supportive of the transition. The journalist still wrote an article, saying, the people at this church were "ultra-supportive," making being supportive sound like a bad thing, apparently, by twisting words.

So, the struggle for acceptance goes on, despite our substantial gains.

[Krististeph]

Therapist is partially right, but the other part is people are a$$holes, in general. not even necessarily their own fault. The few times i've been in the situation where my CD has come up- i've been pleasant, but i may have this way about me that says if you mess with me i'll mess right back- never had anyone really disrespect me outright. But i do know what you mean about the subtle things- it has a lot to do with confidence- not the kind where you are so self assured nothing can touch you, but the kind that you project- even if you do not feel it. Perhaps it is better called bravery.

I'm usually not brave- but when necessary- there will NOT be any misbehaving... by anyone.

Medical people can be the worst sometimes, ironically- they are in a position where they are generally seen as helpers and good people by all, even when they are not. but the attitude sets in and they forget their own poop still stinks, and often more than the rest of us. I've torn into more than a few physicians, once in the ER where i had an injury- no gender issues present at all- even took the twit to court for unethical/unprofessional behavior. just to make the point.

My wife is a nurse- so i do see things from both sides- in a hospital or ER- (BTW- if you can- try going to a clinic if at all possible- unless you have a traumatic injury or illness- you will get much better results in general) everybody- patients and staff alike, need to drop their attitudes, and it dies not always happen. i left a prominent hospital job because of that. Our local hospital is actually pretty good- especially if the staff is subtly encouraged to act properly.

Women's groups- from my limited knowledge- women form groups for mutual support. Women can be very strong- but also can have more insecurity than they ever let on. This is part of how female bullying can get so out of hand. Any group like this has a pecking order- and there is constant, albeit cordial and usually non-confrontational jockeying to move up in the pecking order. Anyone who enters a group is a potential threat. Anyone who has some kind of apparent strength- beauty, fashion, smarts, confidence- is especially a threat. CD who are out are obviously confident, have some fashion sense, and heck, simply being physically male- this is a threat of some amount in that it is different and alien, and that you are different from a regular 'different and alien' guy by being CD, this is 3 to 5 things too many for some folks to handle. Not ALL of the anomosity my be due to your CD. Women can be nasty to each other just like men.

And- men can be nasty to GG's for various reasons, and vice versa.

I'm not saying you are being paranoid in any sense- but remember there is a small undercurrent of people just being asocial jerks regardless... i've swapped classes because of professors who were just too goofy or jerky. Found some awesome profs and colleagues that way, on the plus side!

-kristi

[Aprilrain]

Yup! I'm surprised that you are surprised that people would gossip behind your back. Step back from your own situation for a moment and look at it thorough the lens of the average person, you are likely to be the only TS most of these people ever meet (at least as far as they know) that makes you an oddity and therefore a juicy bit of gossip. I would think especially amongst mature church ladies! LOL. I don't know as I'm hardly mature and I'm only a lady at formal functions. As much as it sucks the reality is the better one passes the less of this one has to deal with. Also I would encourage you to find a new church and when you go leave your scarlet T at home, Keep your mouth shut about being TS!

[Stephenie S]

In my opinion? This will never change.

There are different groups of people you will relate to and who will relate to you.

1.) Those who knew you before and don't accept your transition at all.
2.) Those who knew you before and do support you.
3.) Those who you meet as a woman and who have no awareness of your history.

These groups are NOT compatible and you need to do your best to keep them separate in your life. Once you start mixing these different groups of people in your life you will never be able to take it back.

My advice? Say nothing to anyone about your past. Tell those who knew you before that you don't talk about this at all and would appreciate it if they do the same.

Changing your church is an option. Keep your mouth shut. I can tell you that EVERY time I get into trouble about ANYTHING it's because I opened my big mouth. Keep it shut.

S

[Traci Elizabeth]

I can relate to everything you wrote. And you are totally correct. Those situations occur all the time and sometimes more blatant.

That is the exact reason I completed ALL of my legal documents from pilot's license, passports, driver's license, CCW, social security, and more to my female name and having SEX: F. That in and of itself was has had tremendous value.

I am blessed that have looked fairly feminine to begin with before HRT. Being on it for over two years has added really defining benefits physically. For example I went from a 36 Zero to a 36 C. Mind you, I have a lean thin body and only 5'7" at 139# (was 128 - see what Estrogen does), long thin fingers average woman's size feet that are also thin. My point is telling you these things is to state that I look like a woman.

And as such, I do not tell anyone I was a transsexual and I don't tell them I am a woman. Why? Have you ever heard a woman tell someone, "Just in case you are wondering, I am a woman. Woman have no reason to proclaim their gender. So I do not either. I go about my life as the woman that I am and have no cause to do otherwise. So except on here, I never utter the word "Transsexual."

You and everyone else should not either. But I do understand the issues of folks who knew you as a male now seeing you as female. You can not escape that reality. And I also understand when some records or documents still show "M" as creating issues or problems as well.

Myself and my wife moved to another state. No one here knew me as anything other than a woman. We found a new church, made new friends and are carrying on with our lives as normal females. So in that sense, I was blessed with that as well.

I can't imagine having lots of friends, work, church, or neighborhood where every one knew you as a male and now you are female....when I contemplate that situation, I salute you for your bravery. You are doing it the hard way which I know most have to go that route and that I had it unbelievably easy.

Nevertheless, we all walk our own journey, and I wish you the best and hope that those situations you described become a thing of the past.

[Melody Moore]

If people are not gossiping about me, then it is always someone else and most of the time
it is over the most trivial crap. If they are talking about me then I think that is good because
I believe that this also helps to promote better trans awareness. There are those who have
tried to belittle and slander me (mostly by others in the trans community believe it or not)
but I have always managed to rise above the crap and just go about my life like nothing ever
happened. And what can others really say about me? The feedback I get when things do finally
get passed back to me is that someone says "bla, bla, bla".... but then someone else believes
that you are a really beautiful person anyway. So should we really care about what some people
think? I don't believe we should give one second of time to the negative crap going on around us
and here is why...

For every bigot with no tolerance I meet there is probably 50 other people who accept me, some
of whom also really love and care about me for who I am that it really doesn't matter some people
cannot tolerate people like us. In fact I have found recently it actually works in my favour if there
is someone there that does have issues with me because it really gets others talking & promotes
better trans awareness and I find out who my real friends are. So I don't think of it as a bad thing.

However most of the time when I am out in public I am not easily read, however sometimes I do get
lazy with my voice or it gets tired and that sometimes gives me away. So if I am in a social setting for
too long then the chances increase of outing myself, especially if I am around friends who know me.

Last weekend I went out to the casino because my best friend's band was playing their final gig after
13 years as the resident band at the casino. I met this gorgeous tall slim lady with brunette hair also
around my same age that I was really keen to get to know. She was flirting with me when we danced
so I knew there was some strong chemistry there & something we were really keen to explore together.

We went outside to the smoking area and sat down at a table where it was quite, to have a quite
drink and a chat. Not long after that an Asian girl came & sat down right next to me as two other
Asian girls sat on the opposite side of the table. And I also noticed that there was an Australian
guy also tagging along with this group. The girl who sat next to me got right up in my face virtually
as soon as she sat down, she looked me up & down, then said to me... "Man, you look like sh!t".

I simply asked her "What is your problem?", then she replied "You!". So when it is at this stage, this
is the point you have to show them a mirror. So I turned around and said to her... "Sorry honey, but
it is you who has the problem here, not me". One of her girlfriends went to say something to me, but
I had already seen and heard enough, so I cut her off mid sentence and said to this other girl... "Look,
if any of you have an issue with me, go and sit somewhere else, because I did not welcome you to sit
down at our table with us to be scrutinised and abused like your friend just did to me just now". This
girl told the other one who just abused me not to be rude and abusive towards me. So that was ok even
though I still didn't get any apology, the girl who abused me then asked me "Are you happy?" to which I
replied "F*ck yeah! why wouldnt I be?". The one who abused me then started to back right off and said
"That is really cool & I really respect that". But did she respect? I doubt it after what she tried to do to me.

After a bit of small talk, one of the other girls asked me my name so I introduced myself as "Melody",
but the lady I was with was not feeling comfortable there because this whole incident upset her and
she also noticed that others around us had also picked up on what was going on at our table. So
she suggested that we go back inside to the bar and get another drink. As we went to walk away
the guy that was with the group said "See you later Mel Gibson". At that point this lady grabbed
my hand and let out a "Grrrrrrr!" and expressed her anger and frustration with people who were
like this. When we got inside we reported the incident to security. After that I had to point out the
two main offenders who were responsible, which was the girl who got in my face and the guy who
addressed me as "Mel Gibson". They were escorted out of the casino by security and learnt a hard
lesson that you cannot mistreat, disrespect & try to vilify other people like this anymore. ;)

Anyway, my lady friend and I got back to enjoying ourselves after that and we met lots of great
people. Some made comments about how rude these others were towards me. So most people do
take more of an issue with the transphobic bigots than they do with someone like me who was not
out to ruin anyone else's night or harm anyone. The feedback I got was that I handled the situation
perfectly. Anyway, we had a few more drinks and started to get the swing of things, but the news
of what had happened earlier had spread right around the venue so other people were talking about
me and the lady who was with me. Eventually she got really angry because some guy came up & tried
to out me to her by whispering in her ear about who I really was and she verbally exploded. She yelled
so loud at this guy to just get away and leave us alone that everyone around us just froze in fear with
what just happened. At this point it was definitely time for us to leave, so the lady came home with me
and it is the first time I have been intimate with anyone else since I spit up with my ex-girlfriend.

We talked a lot about the crap that went on and she told me how it angered her, but she was amazed
at how I dealt with it all and stayed so positive through it all. She thinks I am very courageous, but I
told her that I didn't think of it like that, I just don't see the sense in make a bad situation any worse,
but at the same time I wasn't going to be bullied or intimidated by anyone else either. And we also know
we can walk back into the casino any time we like and we will always be respected and loved by the greatest
majority of people for simply being the person we really are. So this incident may have sparked of a new
relationship now in my life as well as encouraged others to talk about these issues. I will just have to see
how things go with this new lady. So is all you can do is make the best of any situation & leave it up to fate.
Good Luck! :hugs:

[Kelsy]

People talking behind your back is to be expected and personally I can only hope that someday I can get to a place where I pass well enough to move under the radar but I expect to get clocked a lot!

How to handle confrontational situations is a good study. I find most mind their own business and at worst stare and giggle among themselves.

I live in the gossip capital of the world, a small town place where everyone knows everyone and your family and your life history and in order to escape this place you are forced to sit with them on a ferry for 45 minutes - never knowing which idiot might wander on the same trip as you, ran into my ex-wife last trip, just to go to America where you can experience anonymity!!!

Come mid-winter there is nothing to do so a good piece of juicy gossip is sport here. I couldn't pass here even if I had a quarter of a million dollars in plastic surgeries just because they know who I am. But what burns me and gets my back up is that they think that with ridicule, cold shoulder behavior and hostility they will have a say in how I live, not going to happen. Then you have the pity committee that says "oh poor dear has lost its mind! let's feel sorry for the mental case!" Then there are the “ we accept you to your face but pull out long knives behind your back.” Oh and did I mention the children who you nurtured and loved and accepted unconditionally, even when you questioned some of their decisions, that disown you and refuse to acknowledge your existence and live three minutes up the road!

Personally I was a borderline male never alpha! Maybe gay?? No male privilege. People always had questions about me. Some now feel justified with their suspicions. Screw em! It is all an exercise in personal freedom - either you are free or you are not!


Kelsy

[Julia_in_Pa]

Yes Beth,

I transitioned on the job in Montana in 2006.

Even though it was a non profit involved with higher education the amount of discussion that went on concerning what I was doing was off scale.
Most of it was harmless chatter due to disbelief but some of it was more anger and hate based and sadly but not surprisingly the majority of the negative came from " Christian " coworkers that could not wrap their small and inferior minds around what was happening.
Two or three of these people managed to cause a ruckus that could only be silenced by my HR department.
After 15 months of post transition on the job the powers that be " laid off " a five year employee with 3 employee of the month awards and other commendations for a job well done.
April 22nd 2008 was not a real good day.


Julia

[Badtranny]

I can relate to everything you wrote.

But you can't Traci. She is/has transitioned where she lives. This is a whole new ballgame and takes real chutzpah to step into the batters box. Those of us who can't, or don't want to move away have to deal with the reality that EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING. Hell yes they talk behind our backs. We are doing something that very few people ever do anymore; we are owning our lives. We are standing up and saying, ooops, I'm a woman, I guess you're gonna have to deal with it. ;-)

For those who seem to get some kind of visceral joy out of saying "keep your mouth shut", I say mind your own business. 90% of the people I see EVERY day know that I am transitioning. They ask me questions, they say rude things, they offer support, THEY ALREADY KNOW! I am living my life way out in the open, and keeping quiet about my transition isn't the answer for me. I'm proud of who I am and I'm proud to be the only TS person most of these people have ever met. I will be retiring someday right here in my beloved SF Bay so when exactly are people going to forget that I spent the first 44 years of my life as a man?

To my transitioning sisters; Be strong and hold your head up. Be a good ambassador for us and make people proud to know you.
To those that have come before me and look down on my kind; Save your breath for the coffee klatch because girls like me are a fiercely determined bunch.

[Stephenie S]

But you can't Traci. She is/has transitioned where she lives. This is a whole new ballgame and takes real chutzpah to step into the batters box. Those of us who can't, or don't want to move away have to deal with the reality that EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING. Hell yes they talk behind our backs. We are doing something that very few people ever do anymore; we are owning our lives. We are standing up and saying, ooops, I'm a woman, I guess you're gonna have to deal with it. ;-)

For those who seem to get some kind of visceral joy out of saying "keep your mouth shut", I say mind your own business. 90% of the people I see EVERY day know that I am transitioning. They ask me questions, they say rude things, they offer support, THEY ALREADY KNOW! I am living my life way out in the open, and keeping quiet about my transition isn't the answer for me. I'm proud of who I am and I'm proud to be the only TS person most of these people have ever met. I will be retiring someday right here in my beloved SF Bay so when exactly are people going to forget that I spent the first 44 years of my life as a man?

To my transitioning sisters; Be strong and hold your head up. Be a good ambassador for us and make people proud to know you.
To those that have come before me and look down on my kind; Save your breath for the coffee klatch because girls like me are a fiercely determined bunch.

Well dear, I get no "visceral joy" out of telling you to keep your mouth shut. It's just good advice.

"Hi! I'm Melissa. I'm a tranny." No thanks. I don't want or need to know your medical history.

If you want to transition to become a tranny, have at it. I thought the whole idea was to transition into a woman.

Thus my advice to keep your mouth shut. You are under NO obligation to inform anyone else of your transgendered status. Once you announce your history there is NO taking it back. With whoever you inform, you will always be "that tranny".

Now, there is nothing wrong with being "that tranny" if that is your goal. A few of my BGFs harbor this feeling and I love 'em just the same. But it does nothing to help you assimilate into society.

I dunno. It's a personal thing, I guess. But there is little "visceral joy" in my advice. It's just advice.

Your friend Stephenie

[Badtranny]

If you want to transition to become a tranny, have at it. I thought the whole idea was to transition into a woman.
Thus my advice to keep your mouth shut. You are under NO obligation to inform anyone else of your transgendered status. Once you announce your history there is NO taking it back. With whoever you inform, you will always be "that tranny".


Well, Steph for me and those like me, there is no option. Am I supposed to hope that everyone pretends they didn't know me last year? Am I supposed to pray that everyone who already knows me isn't going to tell everybody they know what Bill is doing? What am I trying to keep secret? That horse is out of the barn and it's already been seen running around town. Maybe someday people will see me and not know what I am, but aside from everyone in my life already knowing, I still LOOK like a tranny. There is no question that I look like a work in progress to anyone, and that's okay I'm proud of who I am. Some of you may be under the delusion that you look like a woman and nobody can tell any different but that ain't me. I don't have to introduce myself as TG, it's pretty damn obvious. I'm not fooling anyone but you know what? Very few people seem to mind because I'm not uber sensitive about it. I don't look for ways to be offended and I make it my business to help people feel comfortable around me. A few weeks ago the guy at the pharmacy did the "Sir, oops I mean Ma'am, um, Sir?" thing and I just smiled and said, it's okay, I go either way. I could have been offended and embarrassed the poor guy, but what good would that have done?

Of course I don't want to be "that tranny", but what choice do I have? This is the life I was given and aside from just reappearing somewhere else after FFS, then I'm kinda stuck with my past. Unless you have one of those cool memory zappers from Men In Black.

[Michelle.M]

My spider sense is tingling . . . I suspect this thread is going to go south soon. Before it does I'd like to offer a word of thanks.


. . . I do not tell anyone I was a transsexual and I don't tell them I am a woman. Why? Have you ever heard a woman tell someone, "Just in case you are wondering, I am a woman. Woman have no reason to proclaim their gender. So I do not either. I go about my life as the woman that I am and have no cause to do otherwise. So except on here, I never utter the word "Transsexual."

Traci, I think that is the best advice I have gotten from this site so far. Thanks!


Nevertheless, we all walk our own journey, and I wish you the best and hope that those situations you described become a thing of the past.

That really sums it up, doesn't it? Melissa's reality is not the same as Traci's, nor the same as mine. For those who have those daily battles with having to deal with a public transition, I have nothing to add except my support.

Beth, I hope this all eventually gets sorted out for you.

[Eryn]

Beth, I think that the only way that you will be treated as you wish is if you get every gender marker changed and then move to a new place, develop nothing but new friends, and never, ever, mention your transition.

And then, undoubtedly, someone will find something else about which to gossip behind your back.

Mean people are everywhere. You have to decide whether you will allow their meanness to bother you.

I feel for you and hope that you can work this out.

[LeaP]

Well, Steph for me and those like me, there is no option. Am I supposed to hope that everyone pretends they didn't know me last year? Am I supposed to pray that everyone who already knows me isn't going to tell everybody they know what Bill is doing? What am I trying to keep secret? That horse is out of the barn and it's already been seen running around town. Maybe someday people will see me and not know what I am, but aside from everyone in my life already knowing, I still LOOK like a tranny. There is no question that I look like a work in progress to anyone, and that's okay I'm proud of who I am. Some of you may be under the delusion that you look like a woman and nobody can tell any different but that ain't me. I don't have to introduce myself as TG, it's pretty damn obvious. I'm not fooling anyone but you know what? Very few people seem to mind because I'm not uber sensitive about it. I don't look for ways to be offended and I make it my business to help people feel comfortable around me. A few weeks ago the guy at the pharmacy did the "Sir, oops I mean Ma'am, um, Sir?" thing and I just smiled and said, it's okay, I go either way. I could have been offended and embarrassed the poor guy, but what good would that have done?

Of course I don't want to be "that tranny", but what choice do I have? This is the life I was given and aside from just reappearing somewhere else after FFS, then I'm kinda stuck with my past. Unless you have one of those cool memory zappers from Men In Black.


My spider sense is tingling . . . I suspect this thread is going to go south soon.

I took Melissa's comments as 100% positive. Nothing to go South in it. Melissa, you're a lot braver than I am, and I think you have a very healthy attitude. I admire your kindness, as evidenced by your exchange at the pharmacy. That was very gentle.

Lea

[Beth-Lock]

While I thought this was an interesting topic in itself, it also was a way of consulting others in the communiy on the problems and choices ahead of me.

I thank everyone that contributed. There were some very sharp insights indeed among the responses, and I realize that I am more fortunate than many. Of course, I want to be a woman not a tranny, and can only hope that thet is still possible here.

My experience at the church has been mixed, and they in the end failed to meet the challenge of accepting me at face value, as a woman, or supporting me when I really needed it, (not that that would have a lot to do with me being what I am -- I have learned that you give at churches, and they are mainly used to taking. They leave it up to God to do the giving all too often.) Of course they were kind people and accepting of trannies. And there is a fair amount of social life to be had there, but the real reason you go to a church is that you can't be a Christian, all alone as opposed to being in a community, and of course, because you really believe in it.

Thanks again for putting these issues in sharp focus.

[Nicole Erin]

So we are still not accepted by everyone?
Sounds like a lot of groups. Blacks, hispanics, rich, poor, bikers, etc...

People are gonna talk crap no matter what.

Bad Tranny had a point though - for those of us who are obviously trans, it is not like moving to a new location will change that. People will figure it out. Even if someone does completely pass, sooner or later things tend to leak out. I mean look at say Kim Petras. No one is gonna question if it is a male or female and she could have lived this stealth life but things got out.

The best you can do if you don't pass well is to not obsess over it. Mind your manners and just do your best to blend in and even if people do know, they are not gonna make a huge deal out of it. The low-lives might but who cares what they think?

Also, is it a subtile prejudice when someone knows you are TS and they come off with some story about how they used to know one or saw one at some club "but you could never tell"? To me that is like saying - "I used to know one who looked so much better than you".
Reminds me of my bodybuilding days when they would see I was into weight training and would relay some story about a guy they knew who could bench press 600 pounds for 10 reps with one arm...

I think the answer to that is - "You think you are in the one-upsman club but I knew a guy who would have FIVE stories to top that!" (no irony here is there?)

[Melody Moore]

I think if anyone thinks that they can blend 100% seamlessly into society as a trans person then they are
delusional, there is always someone out there that will always bee fully aware of your past or pick up on a
sign that attunes them to look for the other tell-tale signs that they are trans. As I said my weakness is
being in social situations for too long with people I know and feel comfortable with because I do get lazy
with my voice after awhile and it becomes a lot more obvious to others and that is what happened at the
casino. But am I upset it happened? Not really because I do see benefits if others know I am trans & they
want to talk about me. I have won better friends over because I haven't tried to hide who I am and that
I can just be myself and the gorgeous lady that came home with me is clear proof that some people really
do love you more for just being you. I have a whole bunch of friends who are natal males & females who
have already told me that would rather hang out with someone like me than a lot of other people because
they know I am open-minded and non-judgemental and accept others for who they are & won't discriminate
against their friends. who might be a little different ;)

[Kristy_K]

Even a person who isn't transitioning ins't accepted by everyone.

I worked at my job for 25 years when I transitioned. It was a shock for everyone and some accepted it and a few didn't. I don't pass as a GG. But I am not a shame of being me. I am proud of who I am.

One of my therapist don't agree with this but there are people at work that still calls me by my old name or refers to me as a male. They don't do it to be mean either.
I just tell them not to worry about what name or what sex you call me. It will all work out in time because I know what my legal name is and who I am. It seems to make them more comfortable with me. The results are also interesting. They have been positive so far.

My own thinking on this is from when I met this beautiful GG that wanted to be a male but still dress kinda like a woman. After talking with this person for about an hour or so. I started to notice that I wanted to keep calling her a HE. She loved it or should I say he love it.

The whole point is that it taught me a wonderful lesson. I am in transition and I am proud it and who I am. I am also still learning and understanding after all that is what transitioning is all about. So now I want people to call me a female because that is what they see and feel around me..

As they say 10% makeup and 90% attitude.

My other therapist says it shows you are comfortable with yourself as a person.

Kristy

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Melissa's stand is not unique. I don't want it for myself tho.. It's funny tho because i say that, and then i realize that i have talked to at least a dozen large audiences about my situation..

i went around my old job meeting dozens of senior executives, and i went to my daughters school!!! and outed myself as my kid's father to the LGBT society and all the teachers...

so i do have perspective...

One thing i noticed for sure (to keep with the OP) is that our plight is purient to others... it is freaky... it is bizarre...it is no more real than UFO's and ghosts to many people...it makes grown men want to puke... i'm not being mean...this is the deal...
if you transition, regardless of how you do it, you simply MUST GET OVER IT!!!

How you get over it is up to you...melissa will get in your face, i will either blend in, or i will smile and through force of will and good nature win you over.. i know at my old workplace that they talk..i have good friends and super friends there...the super friends tell me how surprised at what was said...my resume is spectacular in my field...yet i get exactly zero call backs in 2 years... ZERO...

we are simply not welcome...that doesnt mean we should stop trying..what it means is that each of us in our own way can simply aspire to be our own best woman because we will be judged more harshly than the rest...it's an unlucky burden and as all things in life go, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you get..and your only choice is how to deal with it..

i say simply know this all going on, and rise above it, by any means neccessary

[Beth-Lock]

At some point, I think most people want to progress friom being stigmatized, if they are, and start to be known for and accepted as valued people and respected members of their community, their background no longer gossiped about or taken seriously by those who know. It is a normal social process for this to happen. An example would be those prominent, even aristocratic families, who rose from the masses by running slave trading enterprises. Indeed, very many families have skeletons in their closets, and in time, often a fairly short time, (decades), these peccadilloes are forgotten and they are celebrated as pillars of the community.

What is wrong with trans, at least those that can either pass, or come close enough to appear to fit in, wanting the same, and even wanting it sooner rather than later?

Think of that the next time you sing that marvellous hymn, Amazing Grace, especially if you are in church or at the funeral of someone well respected. It was written by a not exactly repentant slave trader.

I could give many, many examples except that I might out those subsequently highly respected people, and most people are sensible enough to stop talking about the skeletons in others' closets, at some point. Why should trans not expect others to stop telling others or talking about the fact that we are trans? What upset me at the church, was when an old friend, outed me just for fun, after a person said that he had never known anyone born a guy who became a woman, and she turned around and said, yes you do, and took him over to me, to introduce us. Was that really necessary?

An interesting sidelight, is that the stigma of we trans, can rub off on others, by the primitive principle of guilt by association. Once the prospective boy friend of a close GG friend learned I was trans, he went away and thought about it, and started to worry that my GG friend was also trans! So he asked her! So any hint or spreading of suspicions, can lead to perfectly ordinary people being perceived as trans. We all know of GG's who could pass as trans, for example at an MTF cross-dressers' social, without doing anything to their appearance first. So passing is in part, a matter of people not knowing or their suspicions not being aroused. If my friend had never told the guy I was trans, the whole question probably would never have come up.

[Badtranny]

...Melissa will get in your face,

Hey, that makes me sound like I'm confrontational! ;-)

I am definitely not a shrinking violet, but you're not likely to find me leading any parades either. The bottom line is I would love to be stealth. I would love to just blend in as another woman, but that simply isn't the case. I am planning to mitigate my maleness with as many surgeries as it takes, but meanwhile I do look rather mannish. Am I supposed to sit in the corner and hope nobody sees me? I spent my whole life hiding, and these days I feel like dancing so if there's something wrong with finding joy in my situation, then wrong is what I am.

I am a bad tranny ya know. ;-)

[Stephenie S]

Hmmm. You don't look very mannish to me. Actually you look pretty darn cute. What's wrong with all those people in la la land?

S

[Kristy_K]

Hey, that makes me sound like I'm confrontational! ;-)

I am definitely not a shrinking violet, but you're not likely to find me leading any parades either. The bottom line is I would love to be stealth. I would love to just blend in as another woman, but that simply isn't the case. I am planning to mitigate my maleness with as many surgeries as it takes, but meanwhile I do look rather mannish. Am I supposed to sit in the corner and hope nobody sees me? I spent my whole life hiding, and these days I feel like dancing so if there's something wrong with finding joy in my situation, then wrong is what I am.

I am a bad tranny ya know. ;-)

That was nicely said Melissa.

Kristy

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hey, that makes me sound like I'm confrontational! ;-)

I am definitely not a shrinking violet, but you're not likely to find me leading any parades either. The bottom line is I would love to be stealth. I would love to just blend in as another woman, but that simply isn't the case. I am planning to mitigate my maleness with as many surgeries as it takes, but meanwhile I do look rather mannish. Am I supposed to sit in the corner and hope nobody sees me? I spent my whole life hiding, and these days I feel like dancing so if there's something wrong with finding joy in my situation, then wrong is what I am.

I am a bad tranny ya know. ;-)

Hopefully you know i meant it in a good way!

You are bundle of contradictions!!! What a woman!! :daydreaming:

[Kathryn Martin]

I am one who decided to stay in the community that I have been working for the last 20 years. I made this decision with much tre[idation and concern but was ultimately rewarded. I stopped talking about my transition with two months after I transitioned and it has become a non issue.

My recommendation is that if you openly transition by life circumstance or choice plan, plan and plan again so you are the one controlling the message. My community knew nothing except a very few I briefed before. The day I came out I did an email blast to over 400 colleagues and all my clients and selected members of my community. Two hours later I waa contacted by the paper and I refused an interview and requested that my privacy be repsected. It worked. Every bit of information ended up being directed or controlled by me.

Everyone else keep your mouth shut as Stephenie says and don't ever emphasize you are a woman or anything else other than what you see for that matter, like Tracy said.

We had the planning discussion in another section of this forum and my view is that careful planning is the most important aspect of success.

[Badtranny]

Everyone else keep your mouth shut as Stephenie says and don't ever emphasize you are a woman or anything else other than what you see for that matter, like Tracy said.

We had the planning discussion in another section of this forum and my view is that careful planning is the most important aspect of success.

Again with the keep your mouth shut. I don't know why this bugs me so much, I guess because I just don't like being bossed around. (you're not the boss of me!)

The plan? Well it's funny because I remember being roundly criticized a few months ago for my carefully orchestrated transition and I also said that it's important to control the conversation. I won't present 100% as a woman until my face is fixed, but in the meantime, my obviously feminine appearance was beginning to wag tongues so I came out and told EVERYONE what I was doing. It's hard to gossip behind my back when I'm talking about it right out front.

My plan has been tweaked and adjusted more times than I can count but my original goal of retaining my current job through the transition is still intact. (I've also said that plans are best drawn in sand) I suppose I could have stayed closeted until I was ready to burst out as a new woman, but if I'd spent one more second in that damn closet I would have gone crazier than I already am.

The bottom line is, my transition isn't what I would have ordered, but it's what I've got. I'm making the best of my situation and I'm doing it my way, and the best any one else can do is watch me work, cuz nobody else gets a vote.

[Starling]

I think all of us would agree that being born in our true gender would have been best (except for its lacking the "dream come true" aspect). And I think most of us, with the exception of a few exhibitionists, desire to fit as seamlessly as possible into society with their corrected genders, and simply lead a normal life--for a change!

All the rest of it is what you have to do. No matter how much control you take over your transition, there are going to be hazards and unforeseen conflicts, and as in the rest of your life, you often don't know exactly how you will respond until you watch it happen from the little cockpit inside your skull.

I'm only getting started on the steep part of my journey (acceptance, gender counseling, labs, out and about) in the last year or so, but I've already discovered wildly new territory inside myself.

:) Lallie

[Kathryn Martin]

Badtranny:

The context was "if you do not openly transition and want to live in stealth" keep your mouth shut.

Also remember that I have always been for planning carefully. And if you are in a situation like you and I then plan even more careful. All plans must be adjusted as you go but if you have a roadmap at least you don't get lost.

[Badtranny]

The context was "if you do not openly transition and want to live in stealth" keep your mouth shut.

Oh, well, I can't really argue with that. I mean if you have the opportunity to be stealth, and you want to be stealth, than I guess it makes perfect sense to not say anything that would jeopardize your stealthiness.

Personally I can barely imagine a situation like that. It seems almost like a fantasy to me, and I tend to think fantasies aren't very productive. Shoot, it was only a couple of years ago when I was still making excuses for growing my hair out. The people in my office have literally had a front row seat to my little transition drama. That's real life to me. It's weird, and it's wobbly, and some days I can't believe I'm actually doing it, but I have never been so happy and felt so free.

It is truly better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

[Eryn]

Even a person who isn't transitioning ins't accepted by everyone.

I worked at my job for 25 years when I transitioned. It was a shock for everyone and some accepted it and a few didn't. I don't pass as a GG. But I am not a shame of being me. I am proud of who I am.

One of my therapist don't agree with this but there are people at work that still calls me by my old name or refers to me as a male. They don't do it to be mean either.
I just tell them not to worry about what name or what sex you call me. It will all work out in time because I know what my legal name is and who I am. It seems to make them more comfortable with me. The results are also interesting. They have been positive so far....

Kristy, this seems to be a very level-headed approach. I think that you have defused the majority of the hostility (real or imagined) that could be directed toward you by simply letting little incidents like someone calling you by the wrong name pass beneath you as trivia like that is not worthy of your notice. You know who you are and that is what is important!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Melissa
In my experience things change alot over time...your appearance will matter and post ffs you will be amazed... you will have a hard time convincing people you are genetically not female...you'll see! ...and the good news is that you can embrace your current thinking or go with the flow...i look forward to hearing what you decide... it's not a fantasy...that's how i looked at it too..

Kristy...i have recently started to get frustrated with the approach you mention...it took a couple years....similar to you, i let people have a free ride about all the "he's" and "him's"...if i corrected someone, i did it gently..i assured people it was ok (and i still do)

but now it is getting old... it is feeling wrong now...i've transitioned...its been a while...i am functioning and i'm not a he... so just a thought that it may be worth it at least push back on people even if they are not mean (i know in my case it's not mean)

[Hope]

This is a whole new ballgame and takes real chutzpah to step into the batters box. Those of us who can't, or don't want to move away have to deal with the reality that EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING. Hell yes they talk behind our backs. We are doing something that very few people ever do anymore; we are owning our lives. We are standing up and saying, ooops, I'm a woman, I guess you're gonna have to deal with it. ;-)

For those who seem to get some kind of visceral joy out of saying "keep your mouth shut", I say mind your own business. 90% of the people I see EVERY day know that I am transitioning. They ask me questions, they say rude things, they offer support, THEY ALREADY KNOW! I am living my life way out in the open, and keeping quiet about my transition isn't the answer for me. I'm proud of who I am and I'm proud to be the only TS person most of these people have ever met. I will be retiring someday right here in my beloved SF Bay so when exactly are people going to forget that I spent the first 44 years of my life as a man?

To my transitioning sisters; Be strong and hold your head up. Be a good ambassador for us and make people proud to know you.
To those that have come before me and look down on my kind; Save your breath for the coffee klatch because girls like me are a fiercely determined bunch.

Sweetie, you REALLY have to get out of my head...

But thank you for writing this - I really needed to be reminded today.

You are using basically the exact same vocabulary I use for the basically the same experience ("I'm proud to be the only TS person most of these people have ever met." / "Be a good ambassador for us and make people proud to know you." - I say these things 3 times a week or more).

Personally, while I understand the desire to live "stealth," I refuse to go back in the closet and hide who I am or be ashamed of who I am. I pass VERY well right now for being 6'2" ... Most folks don't give me a second look... but when I interact with people for an extended period of time I usually get read at some point. I think it is my voice, but who knows... it could be the jawline, or the the adams apple or the hands... (I'm assuming after FFS it will not happen with strangers...) But when I am read, I don't back down and relegate myself to second class status - My gender identity is as real as any other woman's (despite what some of the bigots here would have me believe). I haven't been called "sir" in months, and I have only ever been hassled in a ladies room once... I am convinced that it is because I own this. This is me, and I am not ashamed of who I am. People tend to not fu(# with people who are not ashamed of themselves.

Sure - I will one day (soon please!) be able to afford FFS and SRS...and I will have them just as soon as I can scrape the coins together... but even then, I am not moving. I am not going to go back in the closet and into hiding to appease those who can't handle the fact of my assumed Y chromosome. Screw that. I have too much respect for myself for that. If people want to be haters, let them live in fear of discovery.

I look at this life like this: Being trans is a HUGE jerk filter. If someone can't handle the fact that I am a tranny, that is their problem, not mine, and they do me a favor by identifying themselves - because I don't want to waste energy on people who have those sorts of problems. Would I prefer if there weren't jerks in the world? Sure... but that is not the world we live in... and being stealth will not change that.

[Aprilrain]

Screw giving people a pass! My name is April, it's not hard to pronounce, it's not spelled weird everyone who speaks english has said my name probably more times than they could ever remember. Get it straight! I ignore people who use my old name and let them know with a little stink eye and cold shoulder that it's not acceptable to me to be called by some dudes name. No one calls me by my old name now. For a while people were really good about my name but were still using male pronouns. That seems to have gone away. The 2 months leading up to my FFS brought no less than 4 "sirs" my way. All by servers at restaurants, all but one was foreign. WTF! To be fair I was pretty depressed and so when I'd go out it was often without makeup and dressed down. It just confirmed my decision to get FFS. post FFS it's a whole new ballgame. Like Kaitlyn said people will just see a female. Everyone told me "you don't need FFS" you're already pretty" yeah a pretty tranny! You know your a hot tranny when you get hit on at gay bars lol. Those same people are like WOW! Now. They had no idea what it was I was having done or how important it was to ones gender. I would explain the brow bossing and nose which most people had no clue (it's totally subconscious) they didn't get it they had to see what a drastic change it was. One girl said to my friend wow she doesn't have any man features now!

[Melody Moore]

April, FFS is OK for those that can afford it, but what are your suggestions for those that can't?

One thing that is at the top of my agenda is to get FFS & vocal feminisation therapy covered
under public healthcare here in Australia because it is not an elective surgical procedure as
opposed to an essential procedure to help trans women blend more seemlessly into society
and be free of the rejection, discrimination, vilification, violence and abuse.

So please be sure to also sign my petition to lobby our federal & state health ministers for
a budget to cover healthcare needs of transsexual, transgender, gender diverse & intersex
people here in Australia. http://www.change.org/petitions/minister-for-health-better-health-care-for-transsexual-transgender-gender-diverse-australians

[Traci Elizabeth]

I would think that the whole purpose of "transitioning" was to reach the point where you are a "WOMAN" not "trans" anything. So why would anyone want to hold on to that label "transsexual" and own it? I surely don't. And I am not in denial, I simply see no benefit in it or it helping you to be the woman that you are. That is if you want to be a woman or enjoy remaining in the "trans" world.

I also do not hold on to the thought that I was once a male. It's long in the past and seems as if it was a "past" life - not this life. In my mind, and my shrink's there is no reason to hold on to those memories and it is very healthy to stay focused on the present and where you plan are going forward with your life.

Yes, I transitioned the easy way, and I make NO excuses for doing it my way.

We did not run away from our prior address in another state due to my transitioning. We were blessed to have an opportunity come our way in another state and we took it. We made the decision that then was the perfect time to go full time 24/7 which I did. Here no one knows I "was" a transsexual. They only know me as a woman. So I have been blessed with that option. And in sync with that move, all my legal documents were changed. It was perfect timing.

Has anyone here read me? I have no idea and I could care less as I am simply a strong self-assured positive woman living my life my way.

[Aprilrain]

April, FFS is OK for those that can afford it, but what are your suggestions for those that can't?

My suggestion, for what it is worth, is get FFS first. A pussy isn't going to help you get a job, and being a man in a dress is not the way to win friends and influence people. just my 2 cents.
We all have our crosses to bare, for many money is one of those crosses. I think this is a good example of the fact that we all tread our own path, no else can transition for me. Its easy for me to get caught up in this process and think I'm the only person with a hard life but the truth is life is hard for everyone at one time or another. I'd love to be Santa Claus or the transition fairy and drop a load of cash off under the tree or wave my magic wand but I can't and if I could there would invariably be someone who would blame me for causing them to make a mistake saying it was too easy, they should have had to work harder and they would have realized transition was not for them. Nope! sorry charlie but at the end of the day its each man/woman for him/her self.

[Melody Moore]

My suggestion, for what it is worth, is get FFS first. A pussy isn't going to help you get a job, and being a man in a dress is not the way to win friends and influence people. just my 2 cents.

See this is what you overlook, what about those that have huge issues with their genitalia and have thoughts
all the time about self mutilation and experience high levels of anxiety and depression that hampers our ability
to hold down a job like I do? If you ask me what I consider most important then I am going to say SRS. Both
of these procedures shouldn't take any sort of precedence over the other, because the way I see it, both FFS
and SRS are as equally important. So how would you propose to deal with those issues April? This is why all
these types of issues are addressed in my petition to the state and federal health ministers in Australia.

[Frances]

A pussy isn't going to help you get a job, and being a man in a dress is not the way to win friends and influence people. just my 2 cents.

Apparently, it will grant you passage on a plane in Canada though! Never underestimate the power of the pussy!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's not up to April to deal with the issue of people that can not afford a surgery...

Maybe we can solve world hunger first...or maybe stop all war while we are at it.. april? any ideas on how to cure cancer while we are at it?

The benefits of ffs and srs are huge, and they are totally different... its up to each of us to prioritize as we see fit...aprils position is pretty clear to me..

Inability to afford life changing surgery is a huge quality of life problem... it impacts each of us differently... i don't apologize for being able to afford anything. i worked for it..plus i waited a LOOOOOOOOOONG time...

april worked for it too..and now she gets the fruits of all her investment.. and i applaud her for it..

i really do hope that each person gets what they want in life, but that applies to all things , not just transsexuals...

No doubt that we should support all efforts to get medical health professionals and insurance companies to recognize our situation.. we will always struggle against stigma and our overall low numbers, but we should still try....
SRS is slowly moving towards being tax deductible in the US based on what i know, and doctors are making statements that it should be covered under insurance...so progress is being made..

[Aprilrain]

See this is what you overlook, what about those that have huge issues with their genitalia and have thoughts
all the time about self mutilation and experience high levels of anxiety and depression that hampers our ability
to hold down a job like I do? If you ask me what I consider most important then I am going to say SRS. Both
of these procedures shouldn't take any sort of precedence over the other, because the way I see it, both FFS
and SRS are as equally important. So how would you propose to deal with those issues April? This is why all
these types of issues are addressed in my petition to the state and federal health ministers in Australia.

I haven't over looked anything Melody, I could apply your logic to someone who doesn't need FFS at all and that does me what good? What about those girls who get boobs from HRT? lucky them! Thats not my reality, If I want boobs I'm going to have to pay for them. Focusing on what someone else has that I don't does me no good. Your life is not mine to live I have enough of my own problems problems that im sure you're glad you don't have. I'm sure none of us here is willing to trade her life for another's. Be thankful for what you have, work toward what you need, try to be of service to those you can and don't worry about things that you can not change.
Good luck in your endeavors to redistribute wealth in Australia to make it easier for people to get what they want. Anyway the political realities of your country matter to me why? The US has enough of its own problems, problems that actually affect me.

Frances I would never underestimate the power of the pussy! In all seriousness though the way the law is worded you must "Look" like your gender right? I would argue that FFS, If one needs it, would be of greater benefit than SRS in this situation. If I look like a woman and my ID says I'm a woman, I DARE them to ask to see my genitalia! Can we say LAWSUIT! As for the CDs who are worried that they won't be able to fly "pretty" sorry about your luck take it up with your government.

[Melody Moore]

Kaitlyn, many people including myself have worked hard and paid taxes
before succumbing to the social pressures and being forced on to welfare
payments such as a disability pension because of the anxiety, depression,
insomnia etc that hampers our abilities to work. It is one thing having the
means to achieve the things we need, but it is a different kettle of fish when
you slip into a hole and find yourself with nothing to help you get out of it.

I ask you to stop seeing things from your own perspective and to consider the positions
of others in the community who have found themselves in such a situation. I never asked
to be born, especially being intersex and having severe gender identity issues, so did you?

So this is why I am pushing this agenda to get these services covered under public
health. My only hope that others here could appreciate that. Guess I was wrong. :(

[Frances]

Frances I would never underestimate the power of the pussy! In all seriousness though the way the law is worded you must "Look" like your gender right? I would argue that FFS, If one needs it, would be of greater benefit than SRS in this situation. If I look like a woman and my ID says I'm a woman, I DARE them to ask to see my genitalia! Can we say LAWSUIT! As for the CDs who are worried that they won't be able to fly "pretty" sorry about your luck take it up with your government.

That was meant as a joke of course.

In all seriousness though, the proposed law says that you must look like your gender marker, which cannot be changed unless you have had SRS or are about to have it in the next year. So, if the marker says M, you have to look like a man, which implies that trans people who are living full-time can no longer take planes in Canada. The opposition parties are trying to talk some sense into the torries heads, and major petitions are going around. To reirate, if you look like a chick, you better have the genitalia to go with it. Canadians are not a very litigious people by the way.

[Aprilrain]

That was meant as a joke of course.

In all seriousness though, the proposed law says that you must look like your gender marker, which cannot be changed unless you have had SRS or are about to have it in the next year. So, if the marker says M, you have to look like a man, which implies that trans people who are living full-time can no longer take planes in Canada. The opposition parties are trying to talk some sense into the torries heads, and major petitions are going around. To reirate, if you look like a chick, you better have the genitalia to go with it. Canadians are not a very litigious people by the way.

Sorry to hear that sucks. In the US its a state issue and in Ohio where I live all I needed to change the gender marker on my DL was a letter from my therapist. The down fall of being born in Ohio is that I can not change my birth certificate. Like I said we all have our crosses to bare. I hope they are able to work that out.

[Aprilrain]

Kaitlyn, many people including myself have worked hard and paid taxes
before succumbing to the social pressures and being forced on to welfare
payments such as a disability pension because of the anxiety, depression,
insomnia etc that hampers our abilities to work. It is one thing having the
means to achieve the things we need, but it is a different kettle of fish when
you slip into a hole and find yourself with nothing to help you get out of it.

I ask you to stop seeing things from your own perspective and to consider the positions
of others in the community who have found themselves in such a situation. I never asked
to be born, especially being intersex and having severe gender identity issues, so did you?

So this is why I am pushing this agenda to get these services covered under public
health. My only hope that others here could appreciate that. Guess I was wrong. :(

Melody what is your point? You are pushing your agenda onto the wrong people. we don't live in Australia so our opinion of Australian law means nothing. I'll ask you the same question you asked me. What do you suggest we who could afford surgery do for those of you who can't. Should I have spread my money out amongst every TS who wants FFS? We'd each get less than a cent and no one would be getting surgery. Should I have given my money to you since you have such a hard luck story? what is your proposal? Not that it is any of my business what Australians choose to do with their money but im curious how you think the government should base its decision on who needs the limited amount of money there is for health care. Should the TS who "needs" FFS get the money or the baby with leukemia? what do you think the average joe in Australia would think?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thanks for setting me straight melody about my selfish perspective, and all the things that i am not considering and not understanding...
I don't know how we all get along without you.

and to answer your question, no, i can't recall that I asked to be born...

++++++

On a serious note, and closer to the OP.... it seems to me that our best bet is to just all continue to transition however we see fit, and then THRIVE in whatever life we carve out...this is regardless of surgery and anything else...people need to see that we are capable of being productive and worthwhile.... my way is to blend in with people i meet, but keep my long list of friends and families from my "past" included in my life...it works for me... and my positive nature rubs off on my friends that i'm sure go out and tell people they have a transsexual friend..

I can't guarantee that my old friends and colleagues dont harbor prejudice or talk behind my back... but i would take the bet that most of them have a lot of respect for me and that many of them have shared my story with others in an overall positive way..

you can pass a law that says no more hate and no more prejudice, but you still have to melt it away, one person at a time...

[LeaP]

If I might make a small point on cost, analyses show that the costs of TS-related services don't even register at the large corporation level, never mind the national level. The population is too small. There is some indication that providing services can lower overall costs. The Human Rights Campaign site has information along these lines. The surgeries are expensive, but so are a lot of non-TS procedures.

April, I don't understand what appears to be an inconsistency in your posts on FFS. One one hand you evidently view it as critically life affirming. Your comment above re babies with leukemia vs FFS suggests otherwise, perhaps even that you view it as elective cosmetic surgery.

I don't like the hierarchies, quotas, and rationing approaches to health care. It's either necessary or it's not. If it is, find a way to provide it. If it's private insurance, it should be covered. If it's government insurance, it should be covered. No difference.

On topic, a lot of trans women never pass, i.e., people are often less stealthy than they think, despite the compliments people get when/if they reveal that they are TS. I was in line in a store the other day and read a woman that looked very good and very passable, but whose voice absolutely clocked her (she tried, but needed voice therapy). There were other cues and my guess was she had had at least some facial procedures, but the cues were still there, if subtle. It doesn't mean you have to inhabit the trans persona, but speaking to the trans experience may be more about that than remaining stealth per se.

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The thing about "costs' is that somebody still pays them...it's a very common thinking pattern to put costs down as too small to really matter until you have to pay them out of your pocket.

Notwithstanding the grandstanding of people that use advocacy as a way to cry "poor me", it is sensible policy to look at transsexuals' situations based on the all in medical costs..

the depression, the lack of productivity, the stress related illness all cost $$ to somebody..and i believe it was 2009, the AMA said this very thing, and they said srs should be covered by insurance simply on the basis that its cheaper to let us have our gender confirmation than to deal with all the costs associated with NOT having gender confirmation...it's an easy equation...$20k for surgery vs a lifetime of depression/disability and its costs..

but its so much more complicated than that..
I found FFS to be critically life affirming, but i also know that i could have survived without it, albeit with a lower quality of life for me... so i don't find any inconsistency in april's thinking at all..
Life affirming does not mean "neccessary".. It is very hard to argue FFS should be covered by insurance....Lea your point is well taken, it's not "instant passability and acceptance" surgery...

Also i didn't find SRS to be something that i needed or else...i just felt it was right for me..i felt FFS was more important to do first and that SRS was not necessary for me...

in the end, both surgeries changed my life forever for the better, they were life affirming, but i can't honestly say i couldn't have lived without them... what i couldn't live without was LIVING AS A WOMAN.... there are many people here that are testament to this and they have not had surgeries and they are living as women...

and so we all have a different view of how to beat our GID. a different view of what is necessary vs what is optimal..

It's messy...add to that basically unless you are transsexual or know a transsexual really well, you are likely to think we are all nutjobs and prostitutes..
PLUS, many transsexuals rail against the concept that we have a disorder at all!!! oh the stigma!!!!!

It is your responsibility to live your own life, no one will live it for you... It is your responsibility to pay for things that help you live your best life....
Very few people in this world with problems get them fixed with other people's money.,, This is especially true when "society" has a strong bias against your plight which is what the OP was aiming at...

[Aprilrain]

Lea, There is nothing inconstant about my post. I had the money for FFS and I spent it. it was my money to do with as I saw fit. The same cannot be said of public money. My point to Melody is I doubt she will get much traction in her effort to get the people of Australia to foot the bill for plastic surgery when there are other seemingly more urgent needs to take care of, like babies with leukemia. The truth is the baby probably has less of a chance to live than the TS but that is not what Joe public cares about they care about perceived need not best value. Politics has very little to do with reason, haven't you watched any of the GOP primary's? ; )

To get back on topic the point of me bringing up FFS was that regardless of wether people know I'm TS or not I feel that there is a whole new level of acceptance from people post surgery. Like it or not the better one fits the description of "woman" the easier it is for people to accept. That is what FFS can do for a person. Melissa has no intentions of going stealth yet she desperately wants FFS. Why the need for a very expensive surgery if your going to be out to everyone anyway? because it works!

[LeaP]

I found FFS to be critically life affirming, but i also know that i could have survived without it, albeit with a lower quality of life for me...
Life affirming does not mean "neccessary".. It is very hard to argue FFS should be covered by insurance....Lea your point is well taken, it's not "instant passability and acceptance" surgery...

Well, that's the thing - the entire problem with GID is with body/mind disconnect and the resulting life quality issues. Given that, I find it very hard to accept FFS as merely cosmetic. The bar isn't survivability, it's normalcy. One can survive with disfiguring facial scarring after an accident, too - yet insurance covers the "cosmetic" correction so the person doesn't have to live life stared at, talked behind their back, pitied, or even ridiculed or shunned. The parallel is compelling to me.

Lea

[Badtranny]

The bar isn't survivability, it's normalcy.

Simple, elegant, and absolutely true. There is indeed a subtle prejudice, but I believe if you do every thing you can to fix your body and your face, you can get pretty damn close to the holy grail of normalcy.

This is a great thread, but every time I have something to say, Kaitlyn jumps in and says it first!

[Badtranny]

Sweetie, you REALLY have to get out of my head...

Great minds and whatnot. ;-)

All we can do is the best we can, right?

[Aprilrain]

Well, that's the thing - the entire problem with GID is with body/mind disconnect and the resulting life quality issues. Given that, I find it very hard to accept FFS as merely cosmetic. The bar isn't survivability, it's normalcy. One can survive with disfiguring facial scarring after an accident, too - yet insurance covers the "cosmetic" correction so the person doesn't have to live life stared at, talked behind their back, pitied, or even ridiculed or shunned. The parallel is compelling to me. Lea

I don't think anyone implied that it was merely a cosmetic procedure. You and Melody seem to be interjecting the politics of health care into a discussion about the prejudice we face as TS and the various methods that people use to cope with that. We can go round and round about who should pay for what but in the meantime I'm saving up! I'm not waiting for Uncle Sam to hand me a check. You can ponder the compelling arguments and parallel scenarios all you want but at the end of the day Insurance companies greatest goal is to NOT SPEND MONEY! You can try to compel the insurance companies and or the general public to take pity on us through advocacy or you can come up with a plan of action for yourself utilizing the resources available to you, either way the clock ticks!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Well, that's the thing - the entire problem with GID is with body/mind disconnect and the resulting life quality issues. Given that, I find it very hard to accept FFS as merely cosmetic. The bar isn't survivability, it's normalcy. One can survive with disfiguring facial scarring after an accident, too - yet insurance covers the "cosmetic" correction so the person doesn't have to live life stared at, talked behind their back, pitied, or even ridiculed or shunned. The parallel is compelling to me.

Lea

Its a fair argument, and i understand it...i can't help but apply my own experience and many other peoples experience to my thinking....many girls do just fine w/o ffs...

what you've carved out is the discussion over where the line is drawn, which is an important problem for us all...i find it difficult to agree tho with your point on merit....
its hard for me to accept that someone else should pay for any surgery because "i want it".. regardless of how important it is to me, or how badly i want it... i get the distinction around it being "non cosmetic" but that's not really true..

In fact if the bar is normalcy, i'm even more against having everyone else pay...apply that bar to a person that is born with the ugliest face in the world..so ugly they get shunned everywhere..maybe we'd all pay out of pity...what about the 2nd most ugly person? the 3rd? etcetc... where is the line ?

should the people that feel the need to be amputated have their surgery insured? its a totally different thing, but unfortunately many compare it because it is a body changing procedure..their need to amputate is no less than my need for normalcy

[LeaP]

I don't think anyone implied that it was merely a cosmetic procedure. You and Melody seem to be interjecting the politics of health care into a discussion about the prejudice we face as TS and the various methods that people use to cope with that.

Re implications: Not intentionally, April. I know that. But I think the conclusion is fair given the context of you entire response, given physical survival (leukemia) against your statements that one can survive without FFS and that it's not necessary.

There are two aspects to the coverage question. One is political. I'm not interested in that, specifically not the funding question. The other is topical in that these exclusions are part and parcel of the social machinery that maintains the "subtle prejudice," basically by minimizing or dismissing transsexuals' psychological issues while the psychological health of genetic women (and other, non female conditions) is taken seriously. Witness coverage for breast reconstruction, contraception, even hair restoration or wigs for alopecia. These differ from the real psychological needs of transsexuals - how?

You can call it politics. The reality is that prejudice isn't just an ephemeral cultural bias. It's reinforced and taught via the ways it's institionalized.

Lea

[Stephenie S]

There is NO question but that FFS is a life changing procedure and many, many, transwomen recommend doing it first, before SRS. After all, your face is right out there for all to see ALL THE TIME. Your "nether regions" are hidden. No one can tell if you have had SRS or not.

OTOH, genital surgery is SO incredibly fulfilling that I would hesitate to tell ANYONE not to do it.

So we are left with our usual advice. YMMV. Do what you think is right for YOU.

Stephie

[Aprilrain]

There are two aspects to the coverage question. One is political. I'm not interested in that, specifically not the funding question.

The funding question is exactly where you claimed I was being inconsistent.

My comments were based on a hypothetical situation where the public was required to pay for healthcare. Be real Lea no one gives a crap about us, accept that and make your own life. I am not interested in what is fair or not fair I'm interested in what is possible.

[LeaP]

The funding question is exactly where you claimed I was being inconsistent.

My comments were based on a hypothetical situation where the public was required to pay for healthcare. Be real Lea no one gives a crap about us, accept that and make your own life. I am not interested in what is fair or not fair I'm interested in what is possible.

I'll PM you, April.

Lea

[moondog]

What gets me going is that insurance companies will pay to treat people who have chosen to live their lives in such a manner as to adversely impact their health, smoking, lethargic lifestyle, poor diet, etc. and refuse to help people who have done nothing wrong. People do not ask to be transgender or transsexual, yet insurance companies treat these surgeries as elective and cosmetic.

Damned hypocritical of them.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What gets me going is that insurance companies will pay to treat people who have chosen to live their lives in such a manner as to adversely impact their health, smoking, lethargic lifestyle, poor diet, etc. and refuse to help people who have done nothing wrong. People do not ask to be transgender or transsexual, yet insurance companies treat these surgeries as elective and cosmetic.

Damned hypocritical of them.

I agree totally...

Another thought...the OP's three words are true...
but there is also BLATANT OBVIOUS prejudice...and that's much more important to why things like ffs tend to matter so much to some of us.. by helping us blend in, we get to avoid some of both types of this problem..

btw...if there was NO prejudice, NO social stigma, and any GM that wanted could free choose to live female and be accepted by all, then i wonder if there is no need for insurance at all.. you are just a manly looking lady unless you get some surgery facial surgery to "correct" it...just like any gg would should they choose...just a thought.

[Starling]

I think that for as long as we all live, there will continue to be prejudice, if only because there is something deeply unsettling to most people about shaking up their gut sense of gender. I'm trying to empathize with civilians the way I ask them to with me, and what I come up with is this: their queasiness gives them a touch of what dysphoria is like for us, and they don't like the feeling.

I could be wrong, and I don't think there have been surveys of how cis-gendered people respond to us emotionally, but I do believe that almost everyone in the cis-world--regardless of their support for trans rights--has to overcome by reason and compassion an innate and significant visceral sense of our uncanniness.

Thank God that most of our friends and loved ones can.

:) Lallie

[moondog]

Kaitlyn,

My personal take regarding social acceptance is really not so much being able to dress in women’s clothing and walking around without a single stare or comment. For me the issue of crossdressing transcends the mere pleasure of dressing en femme because I want to present myself as a female and be treated and accepted as such, rather than having people accept me as a man dressed as a woman.

This is why the cost of FFS and SRS had been on my mind as of late. I honestly don’t know IF I’ll take that route, but the hypocritical nature of the insurances companies frustrates me to no end.

[My Lady Marsea]

Well like it took me 3 days to finally get time to sit down and get this post read and WOW...this is a kewl one. I usually don't get too involved here, but this is an exception. Lotsa interesting stuff here, all pretty valid or wutever, but the bottom line is we're all like living in our own set of circumstances and like myself are working with wut we were dealt in life, hoping to draw into a royal flush. I myself like the Badtranny (Melissa) approach, I'm also still living where I came out and dealing with about 30 years of having lived and worked here as a guy. Stealth is like about impossible, I'm too old (65 going on 22 lol) and broke on SS to even really consider FFS & SRS. Shoulda like made my move just before arriving here because by now I'd have it down pat. Still get uptight inside or wutever about the occasional "sir" and male pronouns, sometimes I do nothing, others I'll nicely correct. It happens more rarely to my face though because of the fact I know I'm female and thus present that. I'll never pass completely as it stands and don't let it worry me. In the meantime though I've learned to "own it" as another said and continue to like strut my stuff having no problem with my day to day life 24/7 as the female I am. As others said, if you have a problem with me, it's your problem. Hey, I'm OK, it's the rest of the world wut's screwed up. Just sashy to the other side of the street beeitch, cuz I'm not moving aside and I'm here to stay. I've lost the majority of the old "friends", like who cares anyway, made a lot of new ones who only know me as Marsea and like me as such. Don't know wut others say behind my back and don't care. I've had feedback from my supporters who have though as well as their comments or wutever about how they set that person straight, can't help but luv 'em lol. Yeah, I play the lotto twice a week cuz do I like so totally want FFS and SRS, well of course I do silly. However though, it's not a requirement of continuing to have found out who I am and continuing to luv myself. Sure I know there are still hidden subtle prejudice and even blatant ones out there, but know wut? I'll work with wut I was dealt to the best of my ability and continue to try to be an ambassador to the misunderstood world of transgender. .