Lesbian women and us crossdressers.

[girlalex]

Ok... It makes me so mad that I see all of those lesbian women dressed in males clothing and they don't give a f$%#% what anybody thinks or says and I think its great, I think its awesome that they are just being comfortably who they really are. But what about us, why are we so shy and afraid to be wearing female clothes in public. And I mean I see more and more and more of them everyday, yet only once in a blue moon I would see a guy dressed in females clothing. whats up with that.

Maybe I already have the answer to my question and that being that we might be more sensitive in nature than they are or is it just too ridiculous for us to be comfortable too. See... people look at a lesbian female dressed in drab and its ok.. no problem, whatever, but when they see us we are too ridiculous? that doesn't make sense. We should be looking at those women as an example to what we should be doing instead of hiding in the closet.

[busker]

I have photographs of women dressed as males that are more than 100 years old. Perhaps when we have been out and about for a lot longer than we have been, we might get accepted-- but don't hold your breath. Women have always had more "freedoms" with regard to fashion than men even though it is still illegal for a woman to wear pants in Paris France to this day. The authorities just turn a blind eye to a law that is currently in force.

I recently saw something about a "new" men's hairstyle--the "bun" and women commenters are already moaning that men are taking over another of their style options. Go figure! It was actually popular among Japanese Samurai and known as a topknot in English, so men aren't really stealing anything that was exclusive to women, though the topknot was outlawed in about 1868 when Japan began to westernize and Samurai were no longer needed.
You look young enough and certainly passable so if you can manage to get out, you can start the revolution. Good luck, happy dressing.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Lets face it there are things that go on in the world that are not fair to both genders. I want to be paid the same amount a man gets paid to do the same job but how many times are women paid less just because they are women!

[Jacqueline Winona]

Believe me, they hear about their appearance as well. I have several Lesbian friends and they have all complained about being told they don't look feminine enough at one time or another, and I've heard tons of jokes at their expense when they aren't around. I see your point about them not getting as much grief about their appearance as a CD would, but it's not all good for them.

[VioletJourney]

Umm... are you talking about lesbians or FTM crossdressers? Because typically lesbians, even the butch ones, don't dress like men, they just dress a little more masculine. And I've talked to FTM crossdressers that DO feel the need to hide in the closet.

[Frederika]

In patriarchy all that is feminine devalues ​​men therefore makes them ridiculous in the eyes of most people.

[Shananigans]

Hooray for further feeding into the stereotype that lesbians are butch.

However, when non-butch lesbians show up we call them "lipstick lesbians."

Sheesh...

Are these butch lesbians really giving a f*ck about what people think? No. Go out there and dress like a girl if you want to.

But, prepare for hurtful topics like this that stereotype and overgeneralize. Be prepared to be called a fairy and a f*g.

The perpetuation of these stereotypes makes the world go 'round

[docrobbysherry]

Here's another stereotype for ya, Alex! They can get away with it because they're "just women"! And, we're men!

That's NOT rite or fair, but that's how MOST people think!

[Nelson]

the grass is always greener ..... we ALL face the common problem that if we can't be pidgeon holed ... we need to be exterminated. I first generation Hungarian, my mother grew up in NAZI occupied Hungary. People like me were taken awat and gassed ..... She is terrified that something will happen to me, even though she says I'm evil... lol, mum's... :)

[HollyH20]

I think all women are crossdressers because anything they wear is acceptble

[Sammy777]

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/stereo2.jpg

Every time I see this subject come up I don't know what I want to do more - Laugh or Cry.

ONCE AGAIN - The glaring - big enough to drive a semi through - flaw in this theory is:

THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO LOOK/ ACT/ PASS AS GUYS.

Boo Fk'in Hoo
Last week was why do bitches let their shit slip like dat' and wear sweatpants all da' time.

Yesterday was why don't woman appreciate their femininity like we do [and dress better]

Today it's why do Lesbians get away with looking like guys.

WHY? WHY? http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/banghead.gif
Because none of the examples above involve woman trying to be guys.

Here is an idea - Try leaving the wigs and forms at home for once :heehee:
You're man right? So then step up and be one, in a skirt.
Try going out wearing the clothes without trying to be a woman.

[JessicaM1985]

Hmm....
Do I think that FTMs get away with a bit more in terms of what they can wear? Sure. But I don't for one second believe it's all fun and games for them either. They get bullied and run down too. That said, I blame society and not them for this weird double-standard where dresses and skirts are a no-no for guys, but I've seen plenty of mohawks on girls and everyone is cool with it. To that effect, I see it as nothing more than naked misogyny. How dare anyone want to look like a woman? A case in point:
A gg friend of mine used to wear pretty things, but got a lot of ctap from people and talked down to. Over time she started wearing camo t-shirts, guys jeans and doc martens. She isn't a girly girl, but doesn't even really consider herself a crossdresser. Coincidentally, she stopped getting lewd comments from random people and is generally left alone now. Granted she finds this new style more comfy, but it sickens me that some people treat anything feminine looking like crap.

And as Shana pointed out, a person can be FTM and not be a lesbian. Just like OP can be a MTF and like only girls. Gender identity and orientation are not the same thing, despite whatever uninformed people may try to tell you.

[Jenniferathome]

There is a double standard and we have all grown up with it. Men should be men. We can't be even a little feminine or we are gay. Women can be a little masculine without drawing attention, they are just "Toboys" or "power women." Now, on the extreme end, if a women were to wear pure men's clothing (cut for men) she'd be obvious as a crossdresser but society cares less about that extreme than when men are crossdressing. It's just reality and I think will be a million years before that changes. So why be frustrated? Go out if you like. The average person just doesn't care.

[Pythos]

WsorsIbTheWind. YOur argument is flawed. Why? Because you are taking the stance that because an unfairness is done to you that it is then ok for others to have unfairness foisted upon them. THAT HELPS NO ONE.

On another note. To be absolutely honest I have NOT encountered this deal about women getting paid less for the same work. Now, if we are talking sallaried positions....Those are screwed up anyway, and in my book should be illegal. Everyone should get paid hourly, but that is only my view.

Just because women get stiffed when it comes to the amount of money they make for the same job as a man (still have yet to see this personally), does not justify another group being denied what should be a basic human right. Women moaning about men encroaching upon "their" territory when it comes to fashion is BS any way you look at it. Women have co-opted male styles for years, and when men try to get it back we get moaned at about it.

I have seen MANY women wearing styles that are now considered "feminine", yet at one time or another were worn ONLY by men. Do I have a problem with this?

NO!!!

What I do have a problem with is when these same women say crap about me wearing just one item of "feminine" clothing that being a skirt (okay two, cause I usually am in hose). That is what upsets me when I see women walking about in jeans that at one time are of a design for males only.

[Vanessa Storrs]

I decided to go out crossdressed today. I'm wearing jeans and a flannel shirt. I'm going out as a lesbian.

[girlalex]

Thanks for all your replies, I guess from now on its up to research and time before orientation and gender identity are one of the every day topics people talk about
to appreciate diversity and maybe even evolution.

[Debglam]

Hooray for further feeding into the stereotype that lesbians are butch.

However, when non-butch lesbians show up we call them "lipstick lesbians."

Sheesh...

While I get what you are saying Girlalex, Shan is right and you need to be careful. You have no idea whether these masculinely dressed women are lesbians or what. Just stereotyping and that never works out well.

[Contessa]

Please try this on for a moment women are still feminine in what ever they dress in. Even a woman who likes or loves other women still have a feminine look to them. We love the feminine form, I know I do. And even in women's clothing I still like the feminine form. So I like women. I am not gay but I am not straight either. It usually is men who have trouble with crossdressers m2f because they see the feminine form and they like it. They don't want to find out its a man really. I guess that when guys just wear a skirt and nothing to make the skirt feminine have no problem except being considered as gay. Gay men are different from gay women. Two men can't have children. Two can't make children but can still possibly have them.

Women want a penis and men want a vagina. So it is the mind that makes the difference in gay people. Don't get this wrong it is not a problem for them. Their mind says their women so they seek out another just like them although neither has a vagina they still seek out a penis. Same Vice versa. Neither has a penis but still seek out a vagina.

Men think about sex every six seconds I hear. And we are visual to us all women are eye candy. That's a dude comes up when we see us and know it. But when you don't know cause some look so much like women it like you're a dude. Most or many women just don't like those guys cause they are a threat them losing out on getting the good looking guys. Cause even some of them might be gay. Two opposite gays don't work together cause neither wants the package.

Labeling me as gay just because I want to wear a skirt is just wrong, I want to look like or be a woman. That's all. Its fun that's all. When there were skirts on sale for men, they were afraid to buy them or wear them out. Now they are gone off market. Would you wear one now. Sure I would but where can I find a skirt for a man?

Please think about what I wrote.

Contessa Marie

[Lorileah]

:brolleyes:

First, no one says you cannot wear what you want to wear when you want to wear it. There are no laws like that.

Second, as pointed out earlier, not all lesbians dress like men or act butch.

Third, when women started wearing masculine style clothing they had the same type of reaction that we have but they sucked it up and went on and didn't whine about how unfair it was, they made it FAIR. You want equality? Stand up and demand it. Quit being a wuss. Educate and inform.

Fourth, female crossdressers don't go around claiming that they are sexually more active than when they are in feminine mode. When men quit miking it a sexual thing they will get more respect, but when men dress and act like 3 year old morons, that is what the public sees. Since that is what gets headlines, that is the public perception. Sort of like when a man sees a woman in pants and assumes she is lesbian.

Finally, I am surprised this thread is even still here.

[girlalex]

While I get what you are saying Girlalex, Shan is right and you need to be careful. You have no idea whether these masculinely dressed women are lesbians or what. Just stereotyping and that never works out well.
I don't need to be careful because I was obviously referring to lesbians that are ftm and that we need to take an example from them because they are the once who are out more often than we are. In other words I wish I and many like me had the balls to get out there. I just don't think many of us have that confidence including myself, and I wanted to know what you guys were thinking about this subject matter.

Sorry if I wasn't clear...

[Richelle423]

I decided to go out crossdressed today. I'm wearing jeans and a flannel shirt. I'm going out as a lesbian.

hip hip hooray! You go girl!!!!

[Presh GG]

Girlex,
So what is it you are complaining about ?
Is it that lesbians fought for their rights and won ? Or is it that you are too chicken to go out and find out that no one cares? What in the world makes you mad ?

Geez, Exactly whos fault is it you remain closeted ?
Presh
I too am surprised this is still here.

[ReineD]

Ok... It makes me so mad that I see all of those lesbian women dressed in males clothing and they don't give a f$%#% what anybody thinks or says and I think its great, I think its awesome that they are just being comfortably who they really are. But what about us, why are we so shy and afraid to be wearing female clothes in public. And I mean I see more and more and more of them everyday, yet only once in a blue moon I would see a guy dressed in females clothing. whats up with that.

If you're referring to F2Ms who present fully male, they suffer stigma as well in the mainstream, even though women in general do have a wider range of clothing styles than men do. If you're talking about women who identify and present as women but who dress in a manner that is more masculine than their peers, then it is not the same thing IMO since these women are not attempting to present as men.

Is it your wish to present as a male who wears women's clothing, or do you want to present fully female with forms, makeup, wig, etc?

It is true that women who present as women are allowed to wear pants while men who present as men are not allowed to wear skirts. I would like to see this changed as well since the situation it inequitable. I also believe that our society would be better off if there was no stigma attached to people who wish to present differently than their birth gender. But, to say that F2Ms are wholly embraced in our culture, I don't believe is entirely accurate.

F2Ms may experience less fear of the consequences of homophobia than do M2Fs, and this may enable them to present as who they are at perhaps an earlier age, but they also suffer lost relationships and lost opportunities when they decide to forge ahead.

[girlalex]

lol, just wanted some emotional support.

[ReineD]

^ Ooops, sorry. Did I ask too many questions? :p

I do that sometimes. :hugs:

[girlalex]

anyways thanks for all your replies, I get what you're saying Reine.


^ Ooops, sorry. Did I ask too many questions? :p

I do that sometimes. :hugs:

No you didn't lol. Happy new year by the way. Happy New Years Everybody!


Girlex,
So what is it you are complaining about ? Or is it that you are too chicken to go out and find out that no one cares? What in the world makes you mad ?


I too am surprised this is still here. That's exactly it; I'll admit it yes I'm too much of a chicken to go out and find out as I've already mentioned above lol. and ye I'm surprised too that the post is still going, lmao

[karanne]

On another note. To be absolutely honest I have NOT encountered this deal about women getting paid less for the same work. Now, if we are talking sallaried positions....Those are screwed up anyway, and in my book should be illegal. Everyone should get paid hourly, but that is only my view.

Just because women get stiffed when it comes to the amount of money they make for the same job as a man (still have yet to see this personally), does not justify another group being denied what should be a basic human right. Women moaning about men encroaching upon "their" territory when it comes to fashion is BS any way you look at it. Women have co-opted male styles for years, and when men try to get it back we get moaned at about it. Sorry, I can verify this. Just about all my documentation says 'F' for sex (except my birth certificate, which Ohio won't change), yet my (male) assistant is paid more than I am with less experience. (How do I know? I interviewed and recommended hiring him, and he left his pay stub out on his desk once. Ooops...) I'm salaried, I work 50-80 hours a week on average, because when someone is out, I need to cover for them. That means since the City is on a hiring freeze, I get to do it all - from connecting terminals (crawling under desks) to banging out code to budget and City Council meetings. Yet my two (male) assistants are hourly, they make more per hour than I do, and only work 40 hours a week.

So that means that when we're on deadline for a project, who's doing most of it? Moi. Even though today's Saturday, I went in to work at 6, put in eleven hours, and will need to do it again tomorrow for the PTB's artificial deadline. She procrastinated for three months on making a decision (Her favorite phrase: 'I'll think about it.'), then wanted the IT department (all three of us) to meet her original deadline. At least today I can be comfortable and wear leggings, a leotard and denim skirt while I configure routers. :)

[Lorileah]

I don't need to be careful because I was obviously referring to lesbians that are ftm ... In other words I wish I and many like me had the balls to get out there.
So much wrong with that. I am sure some lesbians would like what you said about having balls...as they :kickbutt:.


It wasn't obvious at all. And like in the MtF group most lesbians are very satisfied with their equipment. I go out a lot and rarely have I considered lesbians to be crossdressing (they don't wear fake genitals for one thing). They are just being themselves. Which is a good lesson for the majority here.

Being able to go out in slacks or "flannel shirts" (how rude was that? And members here think its funny?) did not happen over night. It took years but women stuck with it. Why? Because they wanted to be accepted for who they were and they don't buy into the "if you wear pants you must be a lesbian" attitude. It is just clothing.

With about 300 posts maybe you are just trying to learn. I hope so because reverse stereotyping does not make you look good when you want a little emotional support.

[Jennifer8]

I decided to go out crossdressed today. I'm wearing jeans and a flannel shirt. I'm going out as a lesbian.


hip hip hooray! You go girl!!!!

thats just so wrong ughh!

[Shananigans]

Lorileah, I really respect you and think that you are a fair person. You remind me of one of my GG friends. Just when I was really irritated by this thread, I read your post.

BTW, my first lesbian experience was with a professional model. We were both in cocktail dresses...starting out. No flannel was in this equation. People who stereotype lesbians as such can kiss my ass.

Act intolerant and spread stereotypes and you will GET BACK intolerance and stereotypes. And, if you're laughing at someone else for their clothing choices, I hope to God someone laughs at you the next time you're out. It's deserved.

So much wrong with that. I am sure some lesbians would like what you said about having balls...as they :kickbutt:.


It wasn't obvious at all. And like in the MtF group most lesbians are very satisfied with their equipment. I go out a lot and rarely have I considered lesbians to be crossdressing (they don't wear fake genitals for one thing). They are just being themselves. Which is a good lesson for the majority here.

Being able to go out in slacks or "flannel shirts" (how rude was that? And members here think its funny?) did not happen over night. It took years but women stuck with it. Why? Because they wanted to be accepted for who they were and they don't buy into the "if you wear pants you must be a lesbian" attitude. It is just clothing.

With about 300 posts maybe you are just trying to learn. I hope so because reverse stereotyping does not make you look good when you want a little emotional support.

[KellyJameson]

Being an individual is an act of war when by doing so you go against established norms but tyranny is the result when we seek the safety of conformity. Crossdressing is an act that takes great courage because it comes with great risk and make no mistake when you do it you enlist in a war against the fight of repression born from the fear that the ruling majority always feels when threatened by the minority, particularly the minority of one because it is the courage to be an individual that scares the masses who seek the comfort of the herd, cowards secretly hate the couragous.

This theme runs throughout history and being lesbian comes with its own set of problems and potential for violence but I personally think being transgendered or crossdressing is far more dangerous because it is seen as a greater threat to the "common good"

Being different is dangerous thats why many people choose to play it safe, they trade their souls for their skins. But there is wisdom in knowing how to pick your fights.

[Contessa]

Last Post or reply. I will no longer make any more comments on this forum. I will only read here and maybe I will post in the clothing forum. Bye

[NathalieX66]

Come on Contessa, this is a learning experience for us all. 30 years ago, none of us had access to the internet, and a forum like this never existed.
peace & love.

[Sammy777]

if a women were to wear pure men's clothing (cut for men) she'd be obvious as a crossdresser but society cares less about that extreme than when men are crossdressing.

I find it odd that many here would dismiss a guy wearing female clothes but not trying to be/look like a woman as NOT being a cross dresser. Or perhaps not enough of one to pass mustard in here anyway. :rolleyes: See the Percentages Thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?168607-Percentages)for examples of this.

But yet, everybody loves to jump on the but ALL WOMAN get to cross dress band wagon.
Sadly enough, most examples are of woman wearing [menswear inspired] woman's clothes.
That's like saying men who wear Kilts are cross dressing too. Just try telling them that one.

The point - Most women that do wear actual men's clothes are NOT trying to be see as guys.
Do you think that Daryl Hannah below is being anything but a woman?
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/dh2.jpg


I decided to go out crossdressed today.
I'm wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.
I'm going out as a lesbian.
You would think someone who cross dresses would be the one of the last persons using blatant disrespectful stereotypes. I guess I'm wrong though. :rolleyes:

I'm going out cross dressing tomorrow
I'm wearing a wife beater and construction boots.
I'm gonna burp, fart, drink beer and grab my crotch every 15 seconds.
I'm going out as a guy.
Not so nice is it??


I was obviously referring to lesbians that are ftm
Sorry if I wasn't clear...

I hope you are referring to FtM CD's and not FtM TS'.

Because FtM TS' that date women are called Heterosexual Men

[Krististeph]

The male dress lesbians you are talking about- not that there is any distinct grouping- from what i have gleaned is talking with them- have a problem with society's insistence that since they are female they should be girly. We are kind of the opposite- but we are similar in that we reject the typical. It takes a lot of intelligence and a lot of empathy to accept the other- not an easy accomplishment- as we are ultimately opposed in our expressed gender.

But i also agree with you- they are taking the high road- and whether or not we befriend them, we are certainly allies- and I for one- support them fully.

Personally, i think it's easier for MTF CD's because it is so easy to slip back into guy mode- but then again, the two instances are not really mirror images or gender, either.

[michelle64]

personally i dont care about what anybody thinks or does..but, when the "T" was added to the "GLB" we were roasted..that was a stupid decision by those that allowed it thinking we have finally gained acceptance (like who cares about acceptance, i certainly do not)....i dont like any of those groups but thats just me..i can see both sides of this issue here (like i fully support equal pay for same work) i'll just move on and let you guys and ladies have at it..its been a fun read like the threads we get on who carries a gun in there purse when out (i do)

[Ava Tryptyk]

Here's my theory.

Lesbians are actually attracted to women, so by dressing as men they are simply confirming their difference in sexuality by having a difference in apparel. However, since most male crossdressers are straight, and most people still confuse being a crossdresser for being gay, it's more of a problem for men. Lesbians are at ease because they are freely expressing their sexuality, but by crossdressing in public, men can broadcast a message, albeit an incorrect one, that they are gay.

The other factor is that female bodies fit easier into men's clothes than men's bodies fit into female clothes. Men's clothes are more loose and less skin-tight and may just be a little loose on female figures, but there are plenty of girls who prefer baggy clothes to tight ones. But female clothes are specifically meant to accentuate the female figure, which means that unless you go through the effort of making your whole appearance feminine (or unless you naturally have a very convincing feminine look, hairstyle, etc), you will be seen as a guy in a dress, and people will wonder why you are wearing a dress.

[TxKimberly]

Too many people make that assumption - I can't wear what I want to wear because "They"wont allow it or "They" wont accept it. The truth is, "they" dont care in the least, and it is usually you, the individual who will not allow or tolerate it. A lot of us spend a good deal of time out in the world, have a perfectly wonderful time doing it, and "they" couldn't care less. Give it a shot sometime, you might be shocked (I know that I was!)

[Sammy777]

Too many people make that assumption - I can't wear what I want to wear because "They"wont allow it or "They" wont accept it. The truth is, "they" dont care in the least, and it is usually you, the individual who will not allow or tolerate it. A lot of us spend a good deal of time out in the world, have a perfectly wonderful time doing it, and "they" couldn't care less. Give it a shot sometime, you might be shocked (I know that I was!)


Well said. Perfect
:Party2: :cheer: :Party2: :cheer::Party2:

[KellyJameson]

I do not know if this thread has helped anybody else but it has enlightened me.

I notice some people are very bold about going out enfemme and even though I go out I'm very cautious but this is an extension of my normal behavior. This behavior is a learned response that has developed over the course of my life and is an expression of my natural energies.

I am not passive but I am very gentle. I prefer to listen instead of talk. I'm quiet and enjoy reading over going out dancing. I have a deep love for humanity and all of life but yet I am naturally a introvert, there seems to be a complete absence of aggression in me and I was born this way.

My natural state, my energy has always invited aggression from both sexes, the absence of aggression in me creates a vacumn that aggression wants to pour into so knowing this I move throughout life in ways that keep me safe. I cannot be and I will not be what I am not so I adapt to survive.

The freedom each person has to move safely throughout society is different, some are more vulnerable to violence than others and this is why certain people are targeted such as the elderly or children.

Each person must for survivals sake honestly assess their strengths and weaknesses and act accordingly and for those who are naturally extroverted crossdressing is probably a less risky venture. It is the aura that we project out into the world that people respond to and you see this throughout nature, some people are more likely to be victims of violence than others.

[Aprilrain]

Here is my take on this rather tired subject. Crossdressers are men right? Men make the rules right? so if you are all men who want to wear dresses in public change your stupid rules! woman who wear woman's clothing that just isn't feminine don't give a crap about stupid man rules. Anyway you are comparing apples to oranges. Lesbians, no matter how butch, aren't trying to pass as men, don't care to use the men's room (who would!), aren't going by a fictitious name, aren't hoping people use male pronouns with them and do not present as a male one day and a female the next.

The truth is you CAN go out in public wearing whatever the hell you want! long before hormones long before FFS, I was out and about dressed completely in female attire, dresses, skirts and before I went full time even my "boy mode" clothes were female. I'd wear female jeans and androgynous tops, id even wear nail polish in "boy mode" Awkward? yes! but I was never hassled.

[sometimes_miss]

Ok... It makes me so mad that I see all of those lesbian women dressed in males clothing and they don't give a f$%#% what anybody thinks or says and I think its great, I think its awesome that they are just being comfortably who they really are. But what about us, why are we so shy and afraid to be wearing female clothes in public. And I mean I see more and more and more of them everyday, yet only once in a blue moon I would see a guy dressed in females clothing. whats up with that.
A couple things. One, doing that exposes them to other gay women who may be attracted to them. After all, there are significant numbers of gay women out there, but they don't advertise the fact (as opposed to the insignificant number of women who are turned on by men in dresses, for example). Two, nothing new under the sun, it's socially acceptable for women to wear men's clothing. Every woman I've bedded has used one of my dress shirts as a robe of sorts at some point in time. But if I put on a dress, I'm sure they would have been horrified. Women in general, simply don't respond well to feminine men as their SO's. It usually makes them feel insecure. See my bio for 'why', or message me for the reasons rather than fill another thread with off topic info.

[Rebecca W.]

Too many people make that assumption - I can't wear what I want to wear because "They"wont allow it or "They" wont accept it. The truth is, "they" dont care in the least, and it is usually you, the individual who will not allow or tolerate it. A lot of us spend a good deal of time out in the world, have a perfectly wonderful time doing it, and "they" couldn't care less. Give it a shot sometime, you might be shocked (I know that I was!)

Kimberly,

I totally agree with your statement. We all need to just go out and be who we want to be (myself included). I am one who spends too much time wondering what will they say, how will I handle the rude comments and will I look good enough to pass. We all live in one world and if a small percentage of us CD's (not a stereotype) went out into the mainstream dressed in feminine clothes more often, then maybe it would be more commonplace to see a man as a person with individual tastes in clothing and not the so-called male clothing. Isn't clothing a choice?

I strongly believe that clothing is just that, clothing. But change can only occur by change itself. Someone or something has to create a change and until that happens we will have to live with the way the world views so-called non conforming clothing choices. Power to change is backed up with with how many people are willing to make the change.

Alex,

You have started the change by expressing your feelings to the world and of course every response should be different. Those who do not speak will be silenced for life and the pursuit of eternal happiness will be forever hidden. Say what is on your mind and you will feel better about life by letting it out. Not everyone will agree and so be it.
Your friend,

Rebecca:)

[sarahcsc]

hmm... I think women had it hard in many other aspects in life, although I envy their feminity.

[ReineD]

it's socially acceptable for women to wear men's clothing. Every woman I've bedded has used one of my dress shirts as a robe of sorts at some point in time. But if I put on a dress, I'm sure they would have been horrified.

She's not putting on your shirt to crossdress in order to express an inner masculinity. I've done it as well, for the intimacy factor and also because I believed that he found it sexy when I wore his shirts. I was hoping the next time he put on the shirt, he would think of the parts of my body that it touched when I had it on. But, maybe only non-CDers think it's sexy or cute when their girlfriends wear their clothes? You, on the other hand, want to wear a dress for entirely different reasons. :)


Too many people make that assumption - I can't wear what I want to wear because "They"wont allow it or "They" wont accept it. The truth is, "they" dont care in the least, and it is usually you, the individual who will not allow or tolerate it. A lot of us spend a good deal of time out in the world, have a perfectly wonderful time doing it, and "they" couldn't care less. Give it a shot sometime, you might be shocked (I know that I was!)

I agree with you. My SO is among the number of CDers who go out regularly.

But (referring to the hordes of women last century who walked out their doors wearing pants), there is also strength in numbers. There were way more women wearing pants, than there are men who wish to wear dresses. Also had wearing pants been a gender taboo, (had women worn the pants for the same reasons CDers wish to present feminine) and had society believed either it was done for fetish or the women wanted to reject their gender roles, women who wore pants would have been socially ostracized and I bet they would not have gone out in droves wearing the pants. The fashion industry would not have responded by making them widely available.

[Pythos]

Discrimination is Discrimination, is Discrimination. It is as simple as that.

In most cases when it comes to Race, sex, gender, or creed, IT IS WRONG!!! End of story.

[Aloha Jayne]

Because none of the examples above involve woman trying to be guys.

Here is an idea - Try leaving the wigs and forms at home for once :heehee:
You're man right? So then step up and be one, in a skirt.
Try going out wearing the clothes without trying to be a woman. [/COLOR]

Very true Sammy. It's not about what you're wearing as much as who you're trying to be. I would love to be out and about in a nice dress or blouse with some dangly earrings while sporting my goatee and short hair. I don't want to fool anyone (other than myself) into thinking I'm a woman, I just want to be me. But I guess I'm not man enough to try it......yet. I remember the day, 40 years ago, when girls were first allowed to wear something other than dresses to school. Maybe 40 years from now it will be safe for guys to be who they really want to be.

[moondog]

Are lesbians presenting themselves as men and wanting to be accepted as such? Not in my experiences.

I see "butch" lesbians who dress exceptionally masculine but do not alter their faces to look “male.” Personally I think it’s easier to dress like a man. Wearing pants means you don’t need to shave your legs. Throwing on a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt is far easier then coordinating an entire feminine ensemble. Dressing masculine also means make up is a bit superfluous. I think it’s just easier getting dressed in male clothing.

Is a straight woman who dresses in male clothes looking to be accepted as a man? Doubtful, I think most of them dress that way because it’s simple. And most people don’t care.

For crossdressers it’s more complex. Does the CDer dress for a sexual kick, because of personal enjoyment, because he wants to “pull off” presenting as female, or is the CDer actually becoming female?

What I can agree on is that a woman who dresses completely as a male will suffer fewer stares and comments than a man dressed completely as a female.

[ReineD]

Dressing masculine also means make up is a bit superfluous. I think it’s just easier getting dressed in male clothing.

I see your point and I agree. I'm more likely to skip the makeup when I have on a pair of jeans, than when I wear a pretty dress. But, I want to ask you if you think I'm wearing men's clothes when I wear this:

http://fash55.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Women-Winter-Sweaters-4.jpg
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/geotrac/geotrac0709/geotrac070900062/1631699-beautiful-blond-hair-blue-eyes-woman-wearing-red-sweater-and-jeans-standing-sideways-with-hand-on-hi.jpg
http://www.goshoppingchina.com/pic2/2071788815.jpg

:)

[moondog]

Hi Reine,

Nope, those are all very feminine, and sexy if I might say so myself. These outfits were obviously designed for the feminine figure. What I'm talking about is Levis and a sweatshirt, or Carhartts and a work shirt. Basically it's a woman buying and wearing men's clothing.

[Lorileah]

OK I am lost here. What have we decided on? Is there a correlation between lesbians and CD's? If a man wears a skirt in public without the superfluous makeup and shaving and nail polish and wig and whatever, will they be accepted by the masses? And why are shaving and wigs and makeup the realm of women in general? Who decided that? (Answer is simple folks..look at history).

Men make the issue. Men are the reason there is an issue (yes even when women don't accept it because men have already put dressing into a category of unmasculine therefore bad behavior which has been imprinted on women). Men have given up the makeup, frills, perfumes because somewhere along the line another man told them to (it wasn't a woman who decided this trust me). Masculine dressing women are no more lesbian than a cross dressing guy.

Look at the clothing even as close as 25 years ago. When clothing is made for men that has a simple flourish to it...it isn't the women who call a man gay, but other men. Other men who have no idea what a gay man really is but when you get called that you know you have been insulted (this gets even deeper into things that cannot be discussed here). Don't blame the women for doing what they want, blame the males for being so pigheaded and insecure they won't break a mold.

As far as lesbians wearing men's clothing...you can bet they don't 100% of the time. You just notice them more when they do. Ever wonder how many women in nice slacks are lesbian? Nope, you assume that they are lesbian when they wear male clothing though. Take a step to the left and look again, it is all your perspective.

[Jennifer8]

She's not putting on your shirt to crossdress in order to express an inner masculinity. I've done it as well, for the intimacy factor and also because I believed that he found it sexy when I wore his shirts. I was hoping the next time he put on the shirt, he would think of the parts of my body that it touched when I had it on. But, maybe only non-CDers think it's sexy or cute when their girlfriends wear their clothes? You, on the other hand, want to wear a dress for entirely different reasons. :).

After I read this Im thinkin ya thats hot :) so I google girl in a mans shirt and saw this and the girl is hot a hot girl. http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/61753/61753,1294310006,5/stock-photo-sexy-girl-with-man-s-shirt-and-tie-holding-a-basketball-68444332.jpg

[Miss Lisa]

When did they sell skirts for men??? I missed out ;(

[ReineD]

Very true Sammy. It's not about what you're wearing as much as who you're trying to be. I would love to be out and about in a nice dress or blouse with some dangly earrings while sporting my goatee and short hair. I don't want to fool anyone (other than myself) into thinking I'm a woman, I just want to be me. But I guess I'm not man enough to try it......yet.

You bring up an excellent point, that I've read in this forum many times before. The particular CDers I have in mind said that like you, they just wanted to wear pretty clothes and not pretend to be a woman, because they knew they were men. But, they felt they had to dress to blend in order not to be vilified. They felt that if they could blend, then people wouldn't lynch them for being a man who wears a dress.

I've no idea if CDers who feel this way represent a significant percentage of all CDers. And this brings me to a question:

This question is to everyone:

If we lived in a magical society where men and women wore the same clothes ... if it was commonplace for both men and women to wear dresses and pants (depending on the weather for example), do you think we'd have significantly less closeted CDers, meaning would a good chunk of the CDers in this forum happily give up forms, wig, makeup, etc, since it would be acceptable for them to wear dresses? Remember, everyone would know they are men and they would be dressed like all the other men and women. Or, do you think that a guy with a CDing mindset would appropriate something else from the women in this society in order to differentiate himself from a guy who doesn't have a CDing mindset?


When did they sell skirts for men??? I missed out ;(

The designer, Jean-Paul Gauthier and a few others made a splash on the fashion scene with man-skirts a few years ago. It didn't go anywhere. There were quite a few threads about it on this board and if I recall correctly, the majority of the members said they wouldn't be caught dead in the man-skirts. They weren't feminine enough. :p

[Lorileah]

When did they sell skirts for men??? I missed out ;(


Look up Greek attire, look up Tahitian mens attire, look up Scottish attire, look up Roman attire, look up Native American mens attire. Search this forum over the last 5 years and there are at least a dozen threads showing men in skirts at fashion shows. You missed it because it was swept away by the men who didn't want it

[StarrOfDelite]

If you're referring to F2Ms who present fully male, they suffer stigma as well in the mainstream, even though women in general do have a wider range of clothing styles than men do. If you're talking about women who identify and present as women but who dress in a manner that is more masculine than their peers, then it is not the same thing IMO since these women are not attempting to present as men.

Is it your wish to present as a male who wears women's clothing, or do you want to present fully female with forms, makeup, wig, etc?

It is true that women who present as women are allowed to wear pants while men who present as men are not allowed to wear skirts. I would like to see this changed as well since the situation it inequitable. I also believe that our society would be better off if there was no stigma attached to people who wish to present differently than their birth gender. But, to say that F2Ms are wholly embraced in our culture, I don't believe is entirely accurate.

F2Ms may experience less fear of the consequences of homophobia than do M2Fs, and this may enable them to present as who they are at perhaps an earlier age, but they also suffer lost relationships and lost opportunities when they decide to forge ahead.

I know quite a few Lesbians, but have practically zero experience dealing with F2M transgenders, so this post is more of a 'wondering out loud' type thing than it is an expression of an actual opinion. However, I wonder if the same issues which exist between M2F crossdressers, straight non CD'ing males, and Gay non=CD'ing males die genetic males also exist between F2M Crossdressers, straight genetic females, and Lesbian genetic females. There have been many discussions, and a few laments by the bi/gay/pansexual crowd who enjoy dating men, about how Gay men as a general rule are not interested in dating crossdressers. Is it typical that Lesbians are not interested in F2M crossdressers or F2M transsexuals?

The point has probably been made a zillion times on this forum, but in support of girlalex, it does seem rather unfair that little girls who are tomboyish are often considered admirable by their parents and other adults, while little boys who play with dolls are often considered to be an embarrassing blot on family honor. Not that all Tomboys grow up as Lesbians, or that little boys who play with dolls all grow up to be Gay.

[busker]

I've done it as well, for the intimacy factor and also because I believed that he found it sexy when I wore his shirts. I was hoping the next time he put on the shirt, he would think of the parts of my body that it touched when I had it on.

Reine, do you think that you would accept your ex, for example, since he wasn't a CDer, to wear your cashmere sweater for the same reasons you mention here? A kind of warm "sweatshirt" so to speak after a bath, or?. I have a suspicion that most wives would NOT appreciate that notion that their husbands wanted to share some intimacy by trading sweaters. Lots of boyfriend clothes out there but not much in the way of girlfriend clothes.
There was an article in the NYTIMES a few days about the "new" mens underwear and t-shirts. Guess what they are showing? BOYSHORTS! Aren't boyshorts really just a stretch version of boxers? But women got them first, and them men get then. Are these going to be for Arnold's 'girly men"?

And, adding a question asked up above, if men were to wear in guy mode, t-shirts which were low cut or cut to show cleavage even though none was present, do you think that would go over well for guys just wanting to wear something fem? For those of us, even if we weren't CDers with gynecomastia, were screwed either way. Can't wear tops with any hint of "fem" and just wearing plain t-shirts with boobs looks really weird, though I do it sometimes because I get tired of trying to disguise my chest, or wearing a coat. From the neck down I can pass with no problem. I think for men generally, society sees us with a limited palette of clothing choices, and women set the tone for what clothing is acceptable. It's a hard wall to break through.

I think if boys growing up had a choice of female or male attire, as adults they might not have a problem, but jumping in at middle age wearing a skirt I don't think it is going to fly, partly out of fear, but also that they are not socialized to accept a skirt as proper attire. this would be a case for nurture. A child wears what it likes into adulthood and nobody thinks anything of it. The problem now is clothing is not "symbol free" at any age.

[April_Ligeia]

I went out this weekend wearing jewelry and cobalt blue nail polish. This was at BJs and Don Pablos with my girlfriend, not at a club. Nobody said a word about it, in fact people were quite friendly. I haven't had many problems with blending gender traits, personally.

[ReineD]

Reine, do you think that you would accept your ex, for example, since he wasn't a CDer, to wear your cashmere sweater for the same reasons you mention here? A kind of warm "sweatshirt" so to speak after a bath, or?. I have a suspicion that most wives would NOT appreciate that notion that their husbands wanted to share some intimacy by trading sweaters.

First, he'd have to be my size or smaller, which is not the norm for couples. I'd hate to have a cashmere sweater stretched beyond recognition! :p

That said, there's a lot more leeway when it comes to intimate exchanges, strictly for the purpose of being intimate, than when it has to do with gender identity. For example, how many CDs on this board have said they started dressing at their girlfriend's urging? The girlfriend at the time would not have dreamt there were gender issues. She would have thought it was a fun, kinky thing to do. She might even have thought it was cute and fun to put a bit of makeup on him. I can totally see this happening. But then how many girlfriends get turned off when they discover the feelings towards CDing are deeper than just having fun in the bedroom?

To answer your question, I wouldn't have minded at all (provided he didn't stretch my clothes). I should think that a woman would not give a second thought if her husband grabbed her robe to run to the bathroom, or get something in the kitchen, if she did not suspect that he actually wanted to present as a woman, or if she felt he got a "thrill" out of this, which was above and beyond the intimacy they share together. But, we also need to consider generational differences. Maybe women who are in their fifties or sixties today would raise their eyebrows more than someone in their teens, twenties, or even thirties.

[Lorileah]

what if your BF borrowed your panties? Aw just to think of his intimate parts touching your clothes.

C'mon, there are at least 30 threads about that when she isn't home and how creepy their SOs found it :)

[ReineD]

what if your BF borrowed your panties? Aw just to think of his intimate parts touching your clothes.

Actually, he did once (pre SO). I understood where it was coming from, and no, he wasn't a CDer. There are quite a few of us out there who are rather flexible in the boudoir. :)

[vivianann]

I have posted here in the past where I have said we need to muscle past our fear, and get out dressed as we like, just like women did over 50 yrs ago. I have already gone out in public dressed as a woman thousands of times in the past 5yrs, and I find that society is more accepting than we realize. I have been doing my part to help society be more accepting, so come on girls join me in that cause for gaining acceptance.

[Sammy777]

She's not putting on your shirt to crossdress in order to express an inner masculinity. I've done it as well, for the intimacy factor and also because I believed that he found it sexy when I wore his shirts. I was hoping the next time he put on the shirt, he would think of the parts of my body that it touched when I had it on. But, maybe only non-CDers think it's sexy or cute when their girlfriends wear their clothes? You, on the other hand, want to wear a dress for entirely different reasons. :)


Reine, do you think that you would accept your ex, for example, since he wasn't a CDer, to wear your cashmere sweater for the same reasons you mention here? A kind of warm "sweatshirt" so to speak after a bath, or?

Busker - here is the thing.
What Reine describes is something that just about every girl has or will do at least once in their life.
The "thing" that separates [non cd] guys from girls is that is what we sometimes think doing that.
It's not just wearing the shirt, there is meaning behind it. Unless of course we are just cold. :)

Women are just more sentimental and can/will attach feelings to something that men tend to take at face value. For example absconding some item of yours like a key chain fob, sweater, your favorite baseball hat, ect., ect.. It's not being done because she is sneaking out in your Cubs sweatshirt trying to look like a guy, It's because it reminds us of you, makes us feel connected to you and is the same reasoning behind giving a guy something of theirs in hopes that you would feel the same way. [You, meaning guys in general :)]

I'm assuming that average [non cd] guy does not think that way about said [female] clothes and would be wearing such an item more so to cover his nekid body then anything else. :lol:
I can only guess due to never actually being an avg Joe guy.

And when it comes to what is going through the mind of average Joe seeing his G/F wearing his shirt its either A: She looks sexy in that or B:Great now my shirt smells like perfume. lol.
I'm not saying that guys in general are all that two dimensional but it has been my personal experience that many are. :heehee:

[moondog]

what if your BF borrowed your panties? Aw just to think of his intimate parts touching your clothes.

C'mon, there are at least 30 threads about that when she isn't home and how creepy their SOs found it :)

When I told my wife she didn't find it creepy at all, she thought it was cute.

[Aloha Jayne]

[QUOTE] If we lived in a magical society where men and women wore the same clothes ... if it was commonplace for both men and women to wear dresses and pants (depending on the weather for example), do you think we'd have significantly less closeted CDers, meaning would a good chunk of the CDers in this forum happily give up forms, wig, makeup, etc, since it would be acceptable for them to wear dresses? Remember, everyone would know they are men and they would be dressed like all the other men and women. Or, do you think that a guy with a CDing mindset would appropriate something else from the women in this society in order to differentiate himself from a guy who doesn't have a CDing mindset?[[/I]QUOTE]

Ahh....a magical land where men and women can agree on the same clothing. A land where everyone is rich, contented and happy, with no global warming. This is a great question Reine. I know I have talked with other CD's that say they could care less about feeling like a woman and just like the clothes. I, on the other hand, don't care about the clothes so much (I've never been a fashionista) as I do about how they make me feel. So in this utopian society, I would appropriate something from the other team that would help me get in touch with my inner woman. Like an actor that wears a costume to become one with the character, not because he likes "costumes". I just hope the clothes both men and women agree to wear are still pretty.

[Lorileah]

If we lived in a magical society where men and women wore the same clothes ... if it was commonplace for both men and women to wear dresses and pants (depending on the weather for example), do you think we'd have significantly less closeted CDers, meaning would a good chunk of the CDers in this forum happily give up forms, wig, makeup, etc, since it would be acceptable for them to wear dresses? Remember, everyone would know they are men and they would be dressed like all the other men and women. Or, do you think that a guy with a CDing mindset would appropriate something else from the women in this society in order to differentiate himself from a guy who doesn't have a CDing mindset?


You mean like virtually every science fiction movie made in the 70's? :) I thought that is where we were going. A society of jumpsuits and shoulder length hair. Where everyone is thin and blonde and not too bright because the government tells them what to do at every turn and even when they should die.

:)

To answer the question, no, 90% of the members here would throw a major hissyfit. But we all know that they don't dress for any sexual or fetish reasons.

In re: the fashion dresses recently for men. First they are overly UGLEEE to start with so no self respecting person would wear them. Second the models they use are not very flattering to the clothing usually. Often they look like they didn't think before getting dressed OR they look like refugees. Maybe if they presented the clothing in a better light it would sell better...OK I was in there for a minute there...being blonde and not thinking Sorry

[busker]

[QUOTE=ReineD;2746382]She's not putting on your shirt to crossdress in order to express an inner masculinity. I've done it as well, for the intimacy factor and also because I believed that he found it sexy when I wore his shirts. I was hoping the next time he put on the shirt, he would think of the parts of my body that it touched when I had it on. But, maybe only non-CDers think it's sexy or cute when their girlfriends wear their clothes? You, on the other hand, want to wear a dress for entirely different reasons. :)



Busker - here is the thing.

I'm not saying that guys in general are all that two dimensional but it has been my personal experience that many are. :heehee: ,

well, I think guys are just brought up that way to BE 2 dimensional though I think that many, myself included, do have emotions, and can be sentimental, but still, with the number of girl friends I've had over my lifetime, I didn't ever think of "boyfriending" their sweater to touch her where her sweater touched her. I get the point and I suspect that it has some ramifications for those who CD and the extent to which they believe they are "women". I guess in that realm, I'm still 2D

[BRANDYJ]

I have seen many women wearing men's clothes that still look sexy, pretty, hot, or cute. But I have never seen a man in a dress, skirt, or lingerie that looked anything other then ridiculous if he does not have the makeup and feminine hair style to go with the clothes. A good looking woman can wear anything and still be good looking, but not so for the average male. I can't even look at myself in the mirror if I were to put on just a slip,nightgown or whatever and not have shaved and put on the wig and make up to make myself look as fem as possible. Perhaps part of the way I see it is simply because it is not part of the norm for men to wear such clothes and it has long been established that women can wear whatever they want. Like I said, a good looking woman is still a good looking women to me. But a man is never gonna look good to me in a dress IF not completely presenting as a female. I don't think I'm alone on this line of thinking. I would bet that most GG's would even agree with me.
Trust me, you don't want to see me with a 2 day stubble wearing nothing but a full slip, or for that matter a dress and heels out in public, let alone in my home.! YUK! Afraid I'd break my mirror!

[Pythos]

I would NOT give up wigs, or long hair, for I do not see that as strictly feminine. I would not give up makeup, for I do not see that as strictly feminine. The same goes for certain materials, and styles.
I would HAPPILY give up ( and for the most part have) forms and body shaping. That is when a person wearing the oposite gender's clothing is truly trying to pass as that gender.

The being said. Not so long ago I posted a photo set where I am wearing items that LOOK feminine but are in fact made for and or marketed to MEN. Not one item I am wearing is feminine. The makeup I have on is styled off of Horus's makeup pattern.

The results of this photoset from fellow cders is that I was still wearing feminine styles.

Women are wearing styles that are based off of male styles. Those style were ONLY to be worn by men.

Everyone here seems to miss that fact.

They keep saying that women wearing those styles are not trying to pass as men.

Ask yourselves, how would a man wearing some of the items we love to wear, be recieved out in public when NOT trying to pass as women? Is the risk at this stage worth it?

[sherri]

This question is to everyone:

If we lived in a magical society where men and women wore the same clothes ... if it was commonplace for both men and women to wear dresses and pants (depending on the weather for example), do you think we'd have significantly less closeted CDers, meaning would a good chunk of the CDers in this forum happily give up forms, wig, makeup, etc, since it would be acceptable for them to wear dresses? Remember, everyone would know they are men and they would be dressed like all the other men and women. Or, do you think that a guy with a CDing mindset would appropriate something else from the women in this society in order to differentiate himself from a guy who doesn't have a CDing mindset?Although societal norms prevent me from being as open with my own fem expression as I'd like, I actually like people knowing I'm tg. I guess that means I like the sense of differentiation, even when it means, as it obviously does, less acceptance. In the world you conjure, I don't think the clothes would be enough; the finer points -- makeup, nails, hair, etc -- are also important. There is a delicacy and finesse and stylishness to women (well, the majority of women) as well as genuinely fem guys that needs full expression, at least to me.

[girlalex]

And, if you're laughing at someone else for their clothing choices, I hope to God someone laughs at you the next time you're out. It's deserved.

Ok, maybe I don't know about the whole subject matter as much as you do, which is exactly why I posted this thread, so I can learn, maybe get the feedback, and so far the feedback was not so positive, because to some it may sounded as if I was stereotyping although I wasn't trying to. Maybe I should have approached this subject from a different angle or really thought about what I was saying, but I'm defiantly not trying to laugh at anybody else. I wasn't trying to offend anybody.
And why in the world would I laugh at someone else for their clothing choice?... I'm a male crossdresser... by traditional standards I'm the one who's being laughed at.
Laughing at someone else for their clothing choice in a way would make me a hypocrite. So to be clear: I am not laughing at anybody here.

[suzy1]

Look up Greek attire, look up Tahitian mens attire, look up Scottish attire, look up Roman attire, look up Native American mens attire. Search this forum over the last 5 years and there are at least a dozen threads showing men in skirts at fashion shows. You missed it because it was swept away by the men who didn't want it

Scots don’t wear skirts! They wear kilts.
Think there the same? Ask a Scotsman………………….and then run!

[Lorileah]

Scots don’t wear skirts! They wear kilts.
Think there the same? Ask a Scotsman………………….and then run!

A rose by any other name...of course that was written by an Englishman so it is probably not accepted in Scotland. You all say "Lift" when you mean "elevator" and "Bonnet" when you mean "Hood". But , yep, It's a skirt


Kilt
noun
1.
any short, pleated skirt, especially a tartan wraparound, as that worn by men in the Scottish Highlands.

See also dhoti or lungi, fustinella, lava-lava, hakama, gho, sarong, caftan and djellaba.

Maybe I am skirting the issue though. :battingeyelashes::outtahere:<---running from the Scots

[Crysten]

In patriarchy all that is feminine devalues ​​men therefore makes them ridiculous in the eyes of most people.

I think this is it here. Women arent seen to be as valuable as men in society, therefore men who choose to appear as women are choosing to devalue themselves, and therefore are looked down upon.

[girlalex]

In other words I think that guys in female's clothes are more susceptible to discrimination than girls in guy's clothes. That's all I was trying to say.
Sorry for any miscommunication.


I have posted here in the past where I have said we need to muscle past our fear, and get out dressed as we like.

This this exactly what I am talking about.

[jillleanne]

Good, you recognize the answer. So go do it. I do with the same results as the lesbians. So what's the problem? Hope to cross paths with you in the near future.

[girlalex]

lol. I can not believe this thread reached 4 pages.

[Julia_in_Pa]

My girlfriend is a soft butch lesbian. She dresses in a mixture of men's and women's clothing.
She doesn't own a dress or skirt and never wears makeup.
She wears earrings and a ring but that is the extent of her jewelery.



Julia