What is Gender?

[Elizabeth Ann]

I have been thinking a lot lately about gender, spurred in part when one of my children recently declared him/herself to be transsexual. I am surprised at how lost I am on this. Somewhere along the way, I seem to have lost sight of the distinguishing characteristic of gender, the “uniqueness” of gender. I am looking for some answers. Please bear with me. This is not tongue in cheek or some sort of Socratic method of making my own point.

It seems to be an article of faith among us that the physical body does not define gender, though I think most of us would acknowledge that it does define our sex. So then, what is gender? A lot of people on this forum assert that gender is “in your head.” But what does this mean? That gender is a function of brain chemistry and structure? Then this would again be a physical (and presumably discoverable) definition of gender. While some variation of this is a popular notion on this forum (hormones in the womb, etc.), I don’t think many here would completely satisfied with this. It reminds me a bit of those old tests of East German female athletes.

So are we talking about gender as a state of mind? I must confess that I really don’t know what that means. Throughout the animal kingdom, male and female members of species behave differently, but I think we can attribute most of that to instinct. Moreover, among humans we often attribute certain characteristics, (aggression, nurturing, etc.) to different sexes, but we admit enough individual variation to vitiate this as the definition of gender. We don’t call an aggressive woman a man, or a nurturing man a woman.

But not all behavior is instinct. We talked, my child and I, about how gender roles are socially and culturally determined. To a great extent, being a man and a woman is learned. When we talk here about our masculine and feminine sides, it just sounds to me like buying in to the social definitions of gender. To be honest, It seems a bit sexist.

This existential theory of gender leaves me very confused. I am a classic man-in-a-dress, and I am struggling to understand when my child tells me she feels like a woman. I could understand “I have the same traits as a woman.” or even “I want the same body as a woman.” But we have so rarified the concept of gender at this point as to leave it without any observable or operational essence.

Please, I am not trying to be provocative here. I am really hoping someone can help me understand what gender means when someone looks and acts like a man and says, “I am a woman.”

Liz

[Nelson]

May I first say, you are very beautiful and in many ways encapsulate the idioms of transgender. One must then irrepressibly quantify that your influence has positively effected the outcome of one of your children who will not struggle, lie and deceive to hide what is true.

You ask what is Gender... simply that is what is Biological. If we were Amoebas transgender would not be an issue.

Take away Biology and Gender becomes an abstract concept and all concepts are open to argument. Gender in it's abstract form is "How We Feel vs What Does Society Say" And I know you'll hate me for this, but basically Society says..... "we don't care, don't rock the boat" ..... It's too tempting to focus on minority hate groups.

Gender is a biological term, not an emotional one.

Pray that I have helped some.

Love Your Sister

[ReineD]

Gender is comprised of three elements.

1. Physical gender (birth sex): chromosomes, primary & secondary sexual characteristics.

2. Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch). (WPATH)

3. Gender role or presentation: Characteristics in personality, appearance, and behavior that in a given culture and historical period are designated as masculine or feminine (that is, more typical of the male or female social role). While most individuals present socially in clearly male or female gender roles, some people present in an alternative gender role such as genderqueer or specifically transgender. All people tend to incorporate both masculine and feminine characteristics in their gender expression in varying ways and to varying degrees. (WPATH)

In the cisgender population, there is no conflict between these three elements. Crossdressers experience little or no conflict between 1 & 2, but there is conflict between 1 & 3 to varying degrees, even if it is a desire to wear opposite-sex clothing. Transsexuals experience a conflict between 1 & 2, and 1 & 3.

Has your child been tested for any intersex conditions? The following sites list the physical manifestations of intersex conditions, however there might be research as to how intersex conditions affect gender identity. The second site has links to various tests.

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

[leotard fan]

for me, it´s simple now, just see the attachments, but for long long years i was looking what i am and what i want...

[leotard fan]

...and what you think about it? do you agree? my personal oppinion is: i born with xx cromossome, but with sry gene...

[Patsy]

I would like to say the question "What gender are you?" is antiquated, old-fashioned, and totally out of touch with current reality. Unfortunately the society in which we live, and make our way in the world, insists you define your gender identity as male or female. I would say we all exist on a a spectrum that ranges from extreme femininity to extreme masculinity. It bears no relation to your physical appearance because it is all based on mental attitude. You can have a 5' 2" girl who is very masculine, and a 6' 2" guy who is very feminine. It really depends on how they feel inside. Of course the 6' 2" guy will be under a lot of pressure to act in a masculine way, and the 5'2" girl will be under a lot of pressure to act feminine. Truth will out eventually I suppose, but it does make for a mixed up, shook up, strange world.

[leotard fan]

yes patsy. i like your opinion!

[SethAutumn]

Yes gender mean male and female only.

[Kate Simmons]

To a person who is comfortable with themself and their feelings, gender is basically a convenience when dealing with others as a point of reference.:)

[Kate T]

Gender is comprised of three elements.

1. Physical gender (birth sex): chromosomes, primary & secondary sexual characteristics.

2. Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch). (WPATH)

3. Gender role or presentation: Characteristics in personality, appearance, and behavior that in a given culture and historical period are designated as masculine or feminine (that is, more typical of the male or female social role). While most individuals present socially in clearly male or female gender roles, some people present in an alternative gender role such as genderqueer or specifically transgender. All people tend to incorporate both masculine and feminine characteristics in their gender expression in varying ways and to varying degrees. (WPATH)

In the cisgender population, there is no conflict between these three elements. Crossdressers experience little or no conflict between 1 & 2, but there is conflict between 1 & 3 to varying degrees, even if it is a desire to wear opposite-sex clothing. Transsexuals experience a conflict between 1 & 2, and 1 & 3.

Has your child been tested for any intersex conditions? The following sites list the physical manifestations of intersex conditions, however there might be research as to how intersex conditions affect gender identity. The second site has links to various tests.

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

Something about the clinicalness and reductionistic approach of this just doesn't feel right to me Reine. I can't put my finger on it though. The WPATH definitions still to an extent smell of making a "diagnosis" of a "condition". Maybe that is the right way to go though. I don't really know.

Elizabeth, wow, A very interesting post. I agree that as a TG community we possibly are painting our own box to live in.

Hmm.. Will follow up later.

[ReineD]

I tried to put it in a nutshell, Adina. :)

I agree, there is more to gender than this, if you expand the definition of #2 and also provide more detail to #3, if you examine what parts of #3 are social constructs, and also how much of #3 affects #2. Also, how the various parts of #3 can be seen differently by various people. It might also be beneficial to discuss the role of fetish behavior in #2, meaning how a sexual preoccupation with the self as a woman can affect one's sense of identity.

I also left out sexual orientation, again to try to keep it simple. But although sexual orientation is independent of birth sex, gender identity, and the gender roles/expressions we choose (a self-identified male can be same-sex attracted), our sexuality is the 4th element that comprises our gender.

[suzanne]

I agree with ReineD's reply, but it's too much of a mouthful to use in everyday discussions. Actually, it's too much of an earful for audiences accustomed to quick and handy sound bites. Call it an oversimplification if you want, but I use this: your sex is what's between your legs, your gender is what's between your ears.

[ReineD]

I agree with ReineD's reply, but it's too much of a mouthful to use in everyday discussions. Actually, it's too much of an earful for audiences accustomed to quick and handy sound bites.

Susanne, I think the purpose of this thread isn't to explain gender to the unknowing masses, but for the OP to try to understand his transitioning child.

[Genifer Teal]

It seems to be an article of faith among us that the physical body does not define gender, though I think most of us would acknowledge that it does define our sex. . . . We don’t call an aggressive woman a man, or a nurturing man a woman.
Liz

Is this just because of their outward apperance? Most people don't think of sex and gender separately. If as you say the physical body defines sex, what else would they consider? Now consider a gay marriage (m-m). It may be a mistaken concept but don't many people wonder who is the woman? I think in that situation they are able to look past physical sex and read a persons actions and behaviors. They are actually searching for gender traits. The question is WHY? I often wondered this when you see a gay male immitating a woman. If they are good, it can be very confusing. You mind wants to say woman but all your eyes see is man.

It has been said before that in our binary society we are obsessed with determining where each person we meet fits. When a child is born the first question is boy or girl? It is interesting to see how we resolved our confusion when things may not be as they appear. It would seem that appearance is first importance when determining Male or Female only when that is not enough do we consider gender traits to help make the determination.

You have to admit, things were intended to work a certain way. If we don't mate and have babies, our species will die. This is why our sex drive is so high. Seeking someone to have sex with is probably an instictive behavior. In order to do that, determining a persons physical sex becomes very important. So maybe it is a combination of conditioning and instinct which causes us to be so obsessed with determining a person's sex the moment we meet someone. If only we could teach society that gender and sex are different.

[docrobbysherry]

Webster says gender is, "----Kind or sort; a sex, male or female---." It seems clear to me that unless you're intersexed, u r born either male or female. And, THAT is your gender!

However, almost every person has gender "characteristics". Some that r male AND some female. If you're a male and wish to play football AND wear satin slips and bras, u CAN do so. Or, a female who wants to be a ballerina and race motorcycles. Just NOT AT THE SAME TIME!

So, Elizabeth, isn't it simply a matter of balancing your gender characteristics appropriately? Wear your slips and bras, but NOT to football practice! Why? Because society says that's NOT appropriate! Which brings us to ANOTHER topic for ANOTHER thread!

[Asche]

We talked, my child and I, about how gender roles are socially and culturally determined. To a great extent, being a man and a woman is learned. When we talk here about our masculine and feminine sides, it just sounds to me like buying in to the social definitions of gender. To be honest, It seems a bit sexist.

This existential theory of gender leaves me very confused. I am a classic man-in-a-dress, and I am struggling to understand when my child tells me she feels like a woman. I could understand “I have the same traits as a woman.” or even “I want the same body as a woman.” But we have so rarified the concept of gender at this point as to leave it without any observable or operational essence.

I'm with you.

I do not have any idea what "gender" is, apart from:

(a) anatomy (OK, maybe X and Y chromosomes as well),
(b) the training (socialization) you receive (which may or may not take), and
(c) how well you fit (or don't fit) society's ideas of what men and women are supposed to be like.

I call myself a man, but only because of (a) and (b). By standard (c), I'm all over the map.

If I ask myself, what do I have a deep sense of being, I would say "techie" or "musician" long before I'd say "male." I think switching my nature to, say, businessman would be a much bigger change for me than switching from male to female.

But evidently, a lot of people have some deep sense of being "male" or "female," independent of any of those things, a sense they say is independent of what society says. This really baffles me, since I have no idea where anybody gets the concepts "male" and "female" from except from other people, which is to say: from society.

I mean, if someone were to say, "I am an echidne in a man's body," wouldn't they have had to be exposed at least to the idea that there is such a thing as an echidne in order to think this? If they had never heard of an echidne or seen a picture of one (or seen one in real life), wouldn't the phrase "I am really an echidne" be just so many nonsense syllables? And wouldn't there have to be some (real or imagined) characteristic of the echidne that resonated with them, like a behavior or the shape or something, or maybe a children's story about echidnes, and wouldn't that be what they were really talking about?

I also can't help thinking about how quite a few CDs here talk about their "female side," but describe in a way that doesn't sound like any flesh-and-blood female human beings I've ever met. It actually sounds like they have an mental idea of "femaleness" or "femininity" that is independent of actual experience of real live female humans. Sort of as if when you said or thought of "mouse," you only ever thought of Micky and Minnie Mouse, and never of the little furry creatures that squeeze through cracks under the baseboard (and leave little turds in the silverware drawer :( )

So I sometimes wonder, when men say that they are really women inside a male body, what they are thinking of when they say "woman."

[Elizabeth Ann]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. In retrospect, I probably should have posted this in the transexual forum, where the concept of gender independent of physical or external influences is more widely embraced.

I don't think I was very clear, but I find this taxonomy from Reine to be very useful in organizing my thoughts:

Gender is comprised of three elements.

1. Physical gender (birth sex): chromosomes, primary & secondary sexual characteristics.

2. Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch). (WPATH)

3. Gender role or presentation: Characteristics in personality, appearance, and behavior that in a given culture and historical period are designated as masculine or feminine (that is, more typical of the male or female social role). While most individuals present socially in clearly male or female gender roles, some people present in an alternative gender role such as genderqueer or specifically transgender. All people tend to incorporate both masculine and feminine characteristics in their gender expression in varying ways and to varying degrees. (WPATH)
It is 2. that I seek to understand. By training and inclination I believe that anything real can be identified and described, even if only by its influence. The exception would be the supernatural, but I am not a religious person and cannot assign 2. to a person's "soul."

I am not saying that 2. does not exist, but how do you distill it from all the effects of 1. and 3.? In this view, it is the bedrock, the foundation of gender. When nature (1.) and nurture (3.) are both asserting you are one gender, there is a Something Else (2.) that overrides them both.

How can something so important be so ephemeral? There are members here who were born male and lived 99% as a male, but nevertheless will say that they are female. ANY insights into this would be helpful to me.

Liz

[LeaP]

Liz,

Ask yourself how a cisgender male knows he is male. Someone with a female identity knows what they are in EXACTLY the same way.

Lea

[ReineD]

Liz, I agree with Lea. I think we compare ourselves to the people around us and we develop certain affinities, even at a young age. The difficulty with your child, according to your other post is that she did not feel feminine when she was younger. A three, four, or five year old will feel freer to buck the social constraints than she will while in the throes of experiencing peer pressure during the early teen years. In generations past I can understand a young child speaking about not being the gender of his birth sex and having the thoughts physically beaten out of him by fearful parents, but I cannot imagine this was the case in your family, a mere 15 years ago.

The mind is a complex thing and there can certainly be instances when a knowledge of not having a body that matches the mind develops in later years. But, at this point I would want to rule out the other factors that can potentially make your child believe he has an intrinsic gender identity different than birth sex.

Has your child considered seeing a gender specialist?

[Kaz]

The problem lies in the categorisations and labels that are applied... and they change over time as different thinkers/researchers/etc develop their own niches to pursue. My understanding of 'gender' is that is was more PC that 'sex' - just call me a UK male hypocrite...! We used to have to say what sex we were and that was all about what was or wasn't between your legs... as we became more aware, we moved to gender orientation as a concept.. so you could have a different thing on between your legs (as in 'sex') to your 'gender'... I am not sure how this plays in the sociology literature Reine, but it sort of received wisdom over here... so if I apply for a passport in the UK... so I have a 'sex' and I am male, but I have a 'gender'... and that is where it gets complicated!

I like the Gingerbread Person (above)... It helps to break up these categories into some semblance of reality.

As Karren once said (apologies for paraphrasing and maybe going too far in poetic license!) 'I am a guy in a dress'... I like the simplicity and grace of this visualisation... It works well...

Sadly, I am not just a guy in a dress... I am making it more complex by looking for answers... To be honest... I don't care what box I am in or what label I have... I know that I am me... and one day I will figure it out... in the meantime, please would the guy who keeps saying 'this won't happen' leave this guy who is 'making it happen' alone... to just get on with it?

[Rebecca Skye]

I have to say WOW! You are all so well versed with your arguments. Reading through this has given me many things to think about. Thank you all for providing in depth analysis' to go with your opinions and facts.

[busker]

You have to admit, things were intended to work a certain way. If we don't mate and have babies, our species will die. This is why our sex drive is so high. Seeking someone to have sex with is probably an instinctive behavior. In order to do that, determining a persons physical sex becomes very important. So maybe it is a combination of conditioning and instinct which causes us to be so obsessed with determining a person's sex the moment we meet someone. If only we could teach society that gender and sex are different.

If the reproductive imperative is so strong, then evolution would have" weeded out" any homosexual traits in humans. yes, they can babies by adoption, but that does not spread any genes around. With enough human reproduction cycles there should be no gay dna.

"Seeking someone to have sex with is probably an instinctive behavior. " Possibly, but that leaves a lot of couplings that need different kinds of explanations.

[busker]

Asche, the question I have is WHO IS SOCIETY? If we took a poll among the 7000 or so members here, don't you imagine that we would have an entirely DIFFERENT description of what is gender and what is male and female? we could certainly consider ourselves a society. There are tribes smaller in number than the memebrship here. The problem is somewhere, sometime, some group claimed to be "society" and had set the definition for us to adopt but not necessarily a definition that all the individuals of the world would come up with. I look at the people in my neighborhood and can't imagine them agreeing on anything, they are so diverse. The newspapers talk about polls, but those are representations of a few thousand people at best. Maybe gender and sex are the same way. We have let a few people determine how we will live out our lives and what constraints. So, defining gender and sex is going to be in some ways a matter of where one lives--the community determines the definitions--your neighbors. San Francisco is said to be gay friendly--isn't that because a large proportion of the population is gay and therefore determines gender and orientation? Little Rock ARK could be a whole different ballgame. maybe its like situational ethics only situational gender identity.

[Bree-asaurus]

Liz,

Ask yourself how a cisgender male knows he is male. Someone with a female identity knows what they are in EXACTLY the same way.

Lea

I like what Lea says here.

When I came out to my dad, he asked me how I knew I was a girl. I replied "how do you know you're a boy?" He couldn't tell me.

I don't know any scientific definitions of gender or anything like that. All I know is I was born with man-parts, but I am not a man. How do I know I am a woman? I just do. I can't describe it. It's not about the things I like or how I act or who I'm attracted to. It's just who I am.

And it's not just how I feel... if I feel girly or feminine or whatever. I can actually be quite the tom-boy on occasion. It's deeper than that... because there's something inside me that tells me that my body doesn't fit who I am. It's not "oh I want to look pretty" or anything like that... (well, I do want to look pretty, but what girl doesn't? :P ) it's this disconnect with my gender-specific parts. I don't understand them, I don't want them. They don't make sense to me. I feel like something else should be there... something I'm comfortable with. But my boobs... that was different. I never felt like anything was missing on my chest, and now that I have boobs, I don't really think about them all that much. They're just... there... like they should be. But now that they feel like they belong there, it would feel weird if I didn't have them.

I'm a computer nerd, so I kind of relate it to a computer. When I was born, my brain was loaded with a program developed for a different kind of hardware than was included in my system. It doesn't have the code to utilize my devices and it has extra code that is meant for the devices of different system. Apparently the installer that put me together wasn't paying enough attention that day. Tech support tells me I can't reprogram my brain, so all I can do is swap out my hardware and try to get things running as smoothly as I can.

I was totally going to compare myself to a CPU and its' instruction set, but I think what I just wrote may go over enough people's heads... lol

[sissystephanie]

There really is only one answer for the question! Gender is a physical trait that you have at birth. You are either male or female. Yes, it is possible for a person to have some parts of both sexes but we all know that does not happen very often! All the other descriptions of gender that have been mentioned in this thread are mental in nature, not part of the physical being! As an example, and forgive me if I offend anybody with this, Bree_K relates herself to a computer that has a different program than what she was built for. That has nothing at all to do with gender. Bree_K is a male regardless of how she feels or anything else. She will be a male until she has the surgery to change that. I do not understand why many CD's cannot accept that fact!!

[Alice Torn]

I tend to agree with Sissystephanie on this one. I am a male, but like to sometimes present as a lady. Emotionally and mentally, a bit of both genders.

[ReineD]

I was totally going to compare myself to a CPU and its' instruction set, but I think what I just wrote may go over enough people's heads... lol

I think you wrote an excellent analogy. :)

Also, a key point in your post is feeling a complete disconnect with your male parts and not wanting them.

[Krististeph]

for me, it´s simple now, just see the attachments, but for long long years i was looking what i am and what i want...

Very astute, 9.8, even from the Romanian judge....
Gender, sex, etc. definately a multi-dimensional issue- problems when you try to talk 2d on a 4 dimentional world- re: Flatland, 1884, Abbott.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Thanks for the myriad thoughts and opinions. They really do help.

When I was younger, I always felt like everyone else had some special knowledge that I did not possess. I was so superficial, practically stream of consciousness in my thoughts, when I knew that the thoughts and actions of all others sprang from a sophisticated knowledge of themselves and the world that I could never hope to achieve. When others would talk about "the real me," I would search my own depths and come up with . . . nothing. It took a long time for me to realize that they were just as lost as I was, that life is what it is, that subtext may be illusion.

I put my faith in a simple, superficial, cause and effect world. What we all do, think, and feel springs from the neurons in our brain, or from our own animal instincts. I confess that it makes it harder to deal with my own cross dressing. It also makes explanations of gender identity as "an intrinsic sense of being male or female," or responses of "I just know," particularly unnerving to me.

I suppose that is a little arrogant of me, and I apologize in advance. All of your opinions I hold as valid, but a few points I thought needed a response.


Liz,

Ask yourself how a cisgender male knows he is male. Someone with a female identity knows what they are in EXACTLY the same way.

Lea

Many of you liked this, but I don't see the issue as symmetric. A cisgender male has all the clues, physical, hormonal, and social, pointing toward his maleness. I doubt he even considers it a choice. Someone with a female identity, on the other hand, is battling against the elements, rejecting all evidence except that "intrinsic sense of female." It is not exactly the same. If anything, I marvel at the strength of this conviction. I don't and can't deny it. I just don't understand it.

After an eloquent description of this feeling, Bree writes:


I'm a computer nerd, so I kind of relate it to a computer. When I was born, my brain was loaded with a program developed for a different kind of hardware than was included in my system. It doesn't have the code to utilize my devices and it has extra code that is meant for the devices of different system. Apparently the installer that put me together wasn't paying enough attention that day. Tech support tells me I can't reprogram my brain, so all I can do is swap out my hardware and try to get things running as smoothly as I can.


I often resort to the computer analogy as well. The thing is, while the hardware may be (mostly) done at birth, except for the BIOS, it seems to me that the software is loaded throughout your lifetime. I get your point. I am just not sure about whether it is a compatibility issue or an unintended consequence. As they say, "it's not a bug, it's a feature." Personally, I am holding out hope that by the end of my natural life, they will be able to download me into an alternative machine. It will probably have interchangeable parts to fit my mood.:o

Liz

[Kate T]

I tried to put it in a nutshell, Adina. :)


Beautifully succesfully as well Reine. There is an elegance in it's simplicity. I wonder though if like a nutshell the simplicity would crack under pressure! :)



It is 2. that I seek to understand. By training and inclination I believe that anything real can be identified and described, even if only by its influence. The exception would be the supernatural, but I am not a religious person and cannot assign 2. to a person's "soul."


I wonder herein may be the essential difficulty that you are having. Certainly physical sex is real in a physical and biological sense (i.e. genetic status, anatomical genitalia and biochemical structure). Gender however could be regarded as a construct of self consciousness. If that is the case then it may not be "real" in the sense of having any fixed and definable characteristics.

Oh dear, I don't think I've helped at all!!

[LeaP]

I put my faith in a simple, superficial, cause and effect world. What we all do, think, and feel springs from the neurons in our brain, or from our own animal instincts. I confess that it makes it harder to deal with my own cross dressing. It also makes explanations of gender identity as "an intrinsic sense of being male or female," or responses of "I just know," particularly unnerving to me.

I suppose that is a little arrogant of me, and I apologize in advance. All of your opinions I hold as valid, but a few points I thought needed a response.
...
Many of you liked this, but I don't see the issue as symmetric. A cisgender male has all the clues, physical, hormonal, and social, pointing toward his maleness. I doubt he even considers it a choice. Someone with a female identity, on the other hand, is battling against the elements, rejecting all evidence except that "intrinsic sense of female." It is not exactly the same. If anything, I marvel at the strength of this conviction. I don't and can't deny it. I just don't understand it.


It's not arrogant. It's a version of the nurture (vs. nature) argument.

You've mixed aspects of both in mentioning hormones, however. The brain is known to be sexed, from hormones in-utero, and that occurs at a different point in fetal development - weeks later than the start of physical differentiation or development as male or female. This isn't necessarily the same topic as the development of certain dimorphic physical brain structures, which is still unproven in transsexuals, but basic biology.

It is true, however, that one born physically male, whether considered typical, normal, "mostly" (vs. intersexed), or however you would like to phrase it, will be flooded with male hormones, and will usually be raised and socialized as a male. Some of that is critically important, some not as much as you might think. Socialization, for example, will often produce the desired behavior, as children naturally want to please and conform (to a degree ... we have 6 children!), but pre-puberty, many children really have no real idea of gender. Many transsexuals report conforming to expectations without understanding - sometimes with the full expectation that they will become their desired sex when they get older, that they will grow into it.

Hormonal effects beyond fetal differentiation don't truly kick in until puberty, and they don't invalidate the transsexual's expectation or identity. Instead, they confuse and conflict it. At this point, the socialization part of the equation turns on its head. The desire to conform becomes the need to survive and hide.

In the end neither hormones nor socialization function as expected for the transsexual.

Confusing matters, women with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) are genetically male (XY) but their bodies lack the capability of responding to testosterone. They develop with the external physical appearance, secondary sex characteristics, and genitalia of women (including inner genital structures) - completely and totally indistinguishable from genetic females and are always sexed as female at birth. They do not, however, have a uterus or ovaries, as reproductive development stems from the genes rather than hormones. Their gonads, which never descend, of course, are testes. Many (all, historically) never find out they are genetically male.

These women are relevent to the topic because you can argue hormones vs. socialization in a very different manner. Transsexuality in CAIS women is extremely rare, with only one case reported, though the condition is actually fairly common. Is it socialization, or must you now acknowledge hormonal, fetal brain differentiation?

On your comment "I doubt he even considers it a choice": This has nothing to do with choice. A cisgender male doesn't choose to identify male and questioning identity never occurs. A MtF transsexual doesn't choose identitying female, either, but many DO question because of the "evidence," socialization, and complicating hormonal effects. But the sense of identity, as ineffable as it sounds, remains, and is indeed exactly the same.

Lea

[ReineD]

These women are relevent to the topic because you can argue hormones vs. socialization in a very different manner. Transsexuality in CAIS women is extremely rare, with only one case reported, though the condition is actually fairly common. Is it socialization, or must you now acknowledge hormonal, fetal brain differentiation?

As simple as this seems, it could be that we just all live according to our own definitions. How do we know we all see the same color blue? Yet the color that we see is consistent throughout our lives and we have no other definition for it than "blue".

A woman with CAIS who is attracted to men might well take it for granted that all women connect to the world as she does, but with minor variances, although she may well reject the model of an ultra girly woman for herself.

[Bree-asaurus]

I often resort to the computer analogy as well. The thing is, while the hardware may be (mostly) done at birth, except for the BIOS, it seems to me that the software is loaded throughout your lifetime. I get your point. I am just not sure about whether it is a compatibility issue or an unintended consequence. As they say, "it's not a bug, it's a feature." Personally, I am holding out hope that by the end of my natural life, they will be able to download me into an alternative machine. It will probably have interchangeable parts to fit my mood.:o

It's not a perfect analogy, that's for sure.

But I consider it a bug if it leads to a potential segmentation fault ;) What I have is not any kind of feature I'd recommend other people upgrade too :P

It's too bad god or whatever doesn't offer service packs!

[Anna Lorree]

I never felt like anything was missing on my chest, and now that I have boobs, I don't really think about them all that much. They're just... there... like they should be. But now that they feel like they belong there, it would feel weird if I didn't have them.

First off Bree, I also love the computer analogy. That is something that I can certainly understand. As for the bit of your message I have quoted above, I am just the opposite. I am OK with my genitals (I am curious about how it would be to have a vagina, but no so much that I feel compelled to alter that), but have felt very strongly for decades that I should have breasts. I look down at my flat chest and it just looks and feels wrong to me, they should be there. It is like a part of me is missing. I was talking with a breast cancer survivor who had a mastectomy, and she related how odd and wrong it feels for her to not have breasts. I feel similarly.

Anna

[Kate T]

I wonder could part of gender be emotional? i.e. one FEELS masculine or feminine.

[busker]

This topic has faded a bit, but today, there is an interesting article by Charles Blow in the NYT about "masculinity" that might be of interest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/11/opinion/blow-real-men-and-pink-suits.html?hp

[Elizabeth Ann]

I had planned to let this thread die a natural death, unloved and unmourned, though not unremembered. All of your comments were useful, but I felt that I had pushed this question as far as I could without causing hard feelings. I value my connection with this group and don't wish to endanger it, but I can't quite let this go.

During my college days, there was a movie about a black, champion prize fighter who may or may not have thrown a fight. A reporter asks him "what really happened out there?" to which he replied, "there ain't no reallies." I keep being reminded of that scene when I contemplate the issue of gender. Many people here are fond of saying that while sex is between your legs, gender is between your ears. Somehow, I don't think they mean the same thing as "It's all in your head."

The fact is, I am desperate to understand this idea of gender, but the concept just seems so abstract. No one seems to be able to describe it or the source of this concept. Even a thought or idea springs from somewhere. If it exists independent of physiology, independent of social expectations and conditioning, how can it have such an overwhelming control of our minds? And if it exists at this level of the mind, how can it be so immutable? Our political and religious beliefs change, love and hate come into and out of our lives, even aspects of who we "really" are mature or wither over time. Gender, whatever it is, seems to occupy a special place in our minds, constant, dominant, and very elusive.

Liz

[LeaP]

I think it's inconceivable that it's not based in physiology. Complicated, twisted, or conflicted by socialization and the physical "evidence" you cite - or assured, reinforced, and socially supported on the flip side, either way, it starts with physiology.

Lea

ps - Busker, excellent article. Thank you.