First Threatening Encounter at Gay Bar

[NCAmazon]

Ok, So I'm not sure if this should go in the special occasions section since its the first time it happened.

So I'm at a local Gay club dressed in a moderate conservative knee length skirt and cardigan.

I'm with my girls having a good time. A drunk lady with a guy and a girl are standing next to me.

We start small chit chat. The lady blurts out "So your a guy" "Your outfit needs to be more sexy for going out, your outfit is not a going out outfit". I was taken back but stayed calm. She says "I say whatever I want I don't care".

She was wearing jeans and a sweater, a moderate casual outfit. Since she brought up the topic I asked her "So where is your sexy outfit today".

She all of a sudden got defensive and beligerently said "You don't think my outfit is sexy" and then went on a rant.

I said "It looks good, but I thought you meant short skirt when you said sexy". I was just trying to stay calm and clarify what I said.

She then keeps going on a rant then tells the guy she's with that I said she's not sexy.

The guy then talking to her and not looking at me says "Oh he doesn't look hot look he's got a wig with fake crooked breasts and makeup". I was shocked.

I stepped away. My girls pulled me aside to stay away. The drunk lady kept on pointing at me and threatening to get someone to beat me up. I tell the guy I didn't appreciate him insulting me and asked if he heard me say an insult to her. He said no and I said "Thats my point" and walked away giving him the hand.

He gets really angry and says "b** you are a man I'll rip your wig off and kick your ass". I was stuned, my girls and I walk to the other side of the club, he had to be held back by one of his friends.

I was looking for a security guy but could not see one in the club as a gay club is not a place where violence is common.

Later on I saw the same drunk lady pointing at me again saying "Thats the guy that insulted me" telling other men in the club. The men look at me and just shrug.

I saw them later on arguing with other people.

So at a gay club will security protect a T girl or CD as if she were a lady?? Or will they treat it as two men in an altercation??

I was a bit scared. But since I had girls with me it worked out ok. I know next time the moment a drunk gets loud with me to just walk away and ignore insults.

[Kerstin]

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I've been in gay clubs before (as a straight guy and not dressed en femme) and the security have treated everyone equally, i.e. they don't care if you're a girl or guy or who you're arguing with, if someone's causing trouble they're out the door no matter what.

[KellyJameson]

I have had similar experiences and I finally learned that they were reacting to me because of their own feelings of inadequacy.

There is always a danger of making our opinion of ourself, our self approval, dependant on being better than others. Having more money, being more attractive, smarter,ect... that behavior you see so clearly in high school that for some they carry well into adulthood. This creates a unhealthy competitive mindset where you are always evaluating everyone and so feel threatened when encountering someone who you think is better in some way, this process is almost instantaneous but if you watch their eyes look you up and down and the anger form on their face you can see the workings of their mind.

Your story makes me think that your presentation actually threatened her because you were better dressed and her own low opinion of herself resulted in an attack on you, it is called projection and it is a form of abuse. She elicted others like the boyfriend to than come to her rescue trying to incite violence against you, you were a victim of her sickness of soul that I call self hate. Just my opinion but I have seen this thousands of times, it is very pervasive in cultures with superficial value systems.

[Rochelle]

This past Friday was my very first time out, and I met up with the girls at a local CD friendly club. About an hour into the evening a guy came into the lounge and started telling me how amazing I looked and asking me questions about crossdressing, going on to tell me that he too was wanting to dress up as a female and join our fun. I tried to remain polite and lady like with this guy, after all who knows where he's at with his own journey. I listen to him go on for awhile and I look around to find the girls very carefully watching me and him. I eventually got uncomfortable and tired of listening to him, so I got up and left the room. This guy moved on to another girl in our group and she did a great job of setting him straight and letting him know that he was scary. We eventually let security know that we had someone lurking in our group. As the night went on the comments and vulgarity increased from this guy and we kindly sent him on his way. Wow my first time out and there is a scary old man admirer hanging out! I am so glad that I had girlfriends there and we all were watching out for each other. I am also thankful for the club and their attention to our little problem, one wink and they were there for us. It was a great first night out even though there was some wierdness, the other girls assured me that I did a great job handeling the situatation and that it was vary rare to have something like this happen while out. It was an eye opening confirmation of why we girls need to stick together when going out and why a safe place may not always be safe place.

[DanaR]

I think the best thing to do in situations like that is say nothing. After the (your words) "The lady blurts out "So your a guy" "Your outfit needs to be more sexy for going out, your outfit is not a going out outfit". I would have thanked her and moved away from her. Too many things can go wrong is a situation like that. It isn't worth the trouble to exchange words with her. YMMV

[karenlong]

there are always a**- h**** every where, dont let it bother you, and drunk ones at that, its going to happen, being different is not always fun and games, no on should have to tolerate this kind of behavior from anyone, but it happens, hold your chin up and go again, show the a**-H**** of the world they cant deter you from who you are

[Acastina]

I have had similar experiences and I finally learned that they were reacting to me because of their own feelings of inadequacy.

There is always a danger of making our opinion of ourself, our self approval, dependant on being better than others. Having more money, being more attractive, smarter,ect... that behavior you see so clearly in high school that for some they carry well into adulthood. This creates a unhealthy competitive mindset where you are always evaluating everyone and so feel threatened when encountering someone who you think is better in some way, this process is almost instantaneous but if you watch their eyes look you up and down and the anger form on their face you can see the workings of their mind.

Your story makes me think that your presentation actually threatened her because you were better dressed and her own low opinion of herself resulted in an attack on you, it is called projection and it is a form of abuse. She elicted others like the boyfriend to than come to her rescue trying to incite violence against you, you were a victim of her sickness of soul that I call self hate. Just my opinion but I have seen this thousands of times, it is very pervasive in cultures with superficial value systems.

Exactly. This woman sounds like a classic sh*t-stirrer who enjoys provoking other people so she can watch someone else be abused at her behest but not by her hand. She started it with a pointless, rude comment to a stranger, drew a rational, clearly tongue-in-cheek response, went ballistic, and tried to get others to gang up on you. If you feel threatened, you certainly should go looking for security staff right away. She probably WAS jealous that Amazon looked nicer, and her inebriation wouldn't let her keep it to herself.

Empathy exercise: Imagine the hell in her mind every day if that's how she acts out her insecurities....

[VanIsle]

Having had the "pleasure" of running a city centre pub for a few years, I found that virtually all fights were caused by women. They would usually start having a go at someone, and as soon as they got a rise out of them, drag the bf into it and it all kicks off. The guys out for a drink usually just wanted to be out for a drink, but boy, there were some crazy ladies around!

[sonna]

i know this is going to sound wierd but it works for me. you have to get in there heads. it soundes like these people were looking to
start trouble ignore them or kill them with kindness. you be surprised how well it works.

after awile you can sence the mood that somebody is in and change the situation before there is one.

[JessHaust]

My policy when out and dealing with anyone or enything drunk, smile politely, and say nothing. Clubs are usually noisy enough that you can at least pretend not to hear. No confrontaltion with a drunk is going to end well.

We have a simular issue with admirers joining our local group, when they post that they are not TG and just love us and want to join in, I just try to drown them with silence. It always works, they drop off the posts, never to be heard from again.

[Crissy Kay]

Sorry to hear that. Glad things worked out ok. I guess this is the main reason I remain a closet cd. I prefer never getting a fight in guy mode, nevermind being out in a dress.

[monalisa]

Thats sometimes the problem with alcohol. Some people shouldn't drink because they try to start arguments and fights. Too bad you couldn't have gotten them kicked out.

[Piora]

This also enforces how smart it is to make sure that you're in a group (at least one other friend who has your back) whenever you go to places like that. Although I don't go out dressed, I can see all kinds of situations where things like that are going to happen. And yeah, with people who are drinking.....anything can happen and a conversation can go south at any time when booze is involved.

[NCAmazon]

Thanks for the supporting comments. What shocked me was that at a gay bar where there a lot of T girls around, the lady had no business asking me "If I was a guy" and the guy she was with was seriously gonna start a fight with a girl or at least someone dressed as one.

But yes when she first asked me "If I was a guy" and criticised my outfit, thats my queue to get the heck away from them. But I met other great people that night. I think because I verbally was whittier then the guy and girl he had to resort to a violent threat. Would he really look like a tough guy starting a fight with a T girl?? Seriously.

The lady who started the argument was apparently straight and didn't usually go to gay bars. So she has no tact in appropriate behavior at a gay bar.

But I saw that the crowded gay club had no actual bouncers. So I guess violenece is not common there.

[Barbara Ella]

Sorry you had to go through this, but the advice tht the girls have provided here are words to the wise for all of us who have not yet ventured out. It is always very difficult to know beforehand how we will react to a confrontation, but sharing like this helps us form patterns in our mind so we can be smart when we venture out and encounter the "real world"

Thanks

Babes

[Vanessa Storrs]

You will never get anywhere arguing with a drunk. Smile and say "Thank you," move down the bar or to another table, go to another establishment, whatever you do, do not go down to their level. If a drunk enlists the help of another person keep in mind that they are quite likely as drunk and as stupid as the first drunk. Whenever we go out no matter how we may be dressed there is a chance of running across an obnoxious drunk do your best to ignore or humor them, you gain nothing by escalating the situation.

[sterling12]

You asked if The Club is obligated to provide some security and protection? Of course they are, unless they enjoy lawsuits. If your not being combative, AND you walk away from trouble, then your not The Person at fault. You don't have to go to Jail, You don't have to get bailed out!

SOME women seem to enjoy dragging their boyfriends into these altercations. A Rational Person avoids violence, and certainly doesn't involve others who are then put at risk for assault and arrest.

The others are right, violence is not The Norm at Gay Clubs, but they all have security! I've noticed a trend in the last couple of years, straight twenty-something couples also seem to be frequenting GLBT Places. I was told that most guys take a date there to AVOID confrontations with other drunk slobs who be hittin' on their girlfriend. Maybe some of them are more like your encounter. She was deliberately rude to "bait" you. I doubt it was what you said, she just wanted to pick a fight.

I suggest that you and your friends/group contact Management. I would imagine they want a friendly atmosphere without violence. Remember, repeated confrontations tends to draw Police Attention for your Place of Business. Just ask them: "What are you going to do to assure that we are protected while inside your establishment?" Now, they would be "on notice." They have to make sure that trouble is minimized if they want Trans Business, and they want to avoid litigation.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Tara D. Rose]

Having had the "pleasure" of running a city centre pub for a few years, I found that virtually all fights were caused by women. They would usually start having a go at someone, and as soon as they got a rise out of them, drag the bf into it and it all kicks off. The guys out for a drink usually just wanted to be out for a drink, but boy, there were some crazy ladies around!
That is true VanIsle, and you should know first hand, for you ran a city pub for a few years. I've had a few run ins in clubs before similar to the op here. I've had them walk up to me while I'm standing minding my own business, then ask me for a light. I give them the light, then they say "you're a stupid *******" then blow the smoke directly in my face, and then look over at her GF's and they all laugh. I asked the lady to go on and leave me alone, then she pushed me with both hands and got all irate, and started hollering for the bouncers. They came to me and wanted to talk to me out in the lobby. The girls laughed at me as I was being escorted by the security. I explained all the details to them, they let me back in, saying we know you're not trouble here. But they went on to say that they have had trouble with these girls before. So I went back in and security through them out. I could tell many more stories, but this should be enough.
L&R........Tara

[Melissa Rose]

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Unfortunately, there are ignorant, mean people of all types, and they are every where. As others has mentioned, trying to have a rational conversation with a drunk person is usually a futile exercise. It is best to politely and safely disengage and walk away. Putting them in their place or correcting them will only escalate the situation. Being right is not always the best thing to do.


What shocked me was that at a gay bar where there a lot of T girls around, the lady had no business asking me "If I was a guy" and the guy she was with was seriously gonna start a fight with a girl or at least someone dressed as one.
But I saw that the crowded gay club had no actual bouncers. So I guess violenece is not common there.

It appears for some reason, you have the idea that there is something profoundly different about a gay bar than any other bar. Acceptance and welcoming behavior towards t-girls is not a universal given in a gay bar. Some of the meanest comments I have heard have come from gay men to t-girls. Some of the most aggressive behavior I have seen and experienced is by admirers in gay bars where t-girls frequent. Drunks, jerks and bitches are the same no matter where they are at and independent of sexual orientation. Would it have been any more appropriate for a drunk woman to ask "If you are a guy" in a straight bar? I can't see the distinction. Would you treat a gay person differently in a gay bar compared to a straight bar? Probably not. Respectful behavior applies to every place and the rules at a gay bar are no different.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi NC.A, You do know that you just can't fix stupid.

[NCAmazon]

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Unfortunately, there are ignorant, mean people of all types, and they are every where. As others has mentioned, trying to have a rational conversation with a drunk person is usually a futile exercise. It is best to politely and safely disengage and walk away. Putting them in their place or correcting them will only escalate the situation. Being right is not always the best thing to do.



It appears for some reason, you have the idea that there is something profoundly different about a gay bar than any other bar. Acceptance and welcoming behavior towards t-girls is not a universal given in a gay bar. Some of the meanest comments I have heard have come from gay men to t-girls. Some of the most aggressive behavior I have seen and experienced is by admirers in gay bars where t-girls frequent. Drunks, jerks and bitches are the same no matter where they are at and independent of sexual orientation. Would it have been any more appropriate for a drunk woman to ask "If you are a guy" in a straight bar? I can't see the distinction. Would you treat a gay person differently in a gay bar compared to a straight bar? Probably not. Respectful behavior applies to every place and the rules at a gay bar are no different.

Well partiailly yes, On the same note its probably not appropriate to ask someone if they are gay at a gay bar? You generally don't ask if a girl is a T girl at a gay bar? Its common sense to just let it be. In a straight bar I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone came up and asked me that. It would be ignorant, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Its also insulting that once someone decides to verbally attack a T girl they start using the words "Him, Him Him" "That guy" etc. Oh well just a small risk I take going out.


But most people were friendly that night, its just sometimes you hit a landmine to avoid.

[Lorileah]

Drunk people are not much fun. I have had "constructive" criticism before and usually I just smile and look stupid. Then they go to something else. She was looking for a fight. You almost gave it to her and her drunk a$$ boyfriend. You did right by walking away. You could have also alerted security about someone who may escalate to violence or become an issue to other patrons. No one wants to be in a bar where someone is abusive or belligerent. Besides you were not trying to take her home, who cares what she thinks is sexy?

Don't let it stop you from going out. (last night one of the drunk idiots I met a few weeks ago bothered me for a quarter...a quarter? I just looked him down and said "Go away" in a firm voice...he didn't bother me the rest of the night).

[DonnaT]

Next time in the club, talk to, and establish a rapport with the bartender and the doorperson. Ask them about security/bouncers, and explain what happened the last time you were there.

If trouble again raises its ugly head, just say, I need another drink, and go tell the bartender.

[kimdl93]

Generally speaking - gay clubs or straight - Its best to stay out of conversations with drunks of either gender. And I would never make a negative comment about a drunk lady's outfit. I don't see an upside there.

[linda allen]

I think the best thing to do in situations like that is say nothing. After the (your words) "The lady blurts out "So your a guy" "Your outfit needs to be more sexy for going out, your outfit is not a going out outfit". I would have thanked her and moved away from her. Too many things can go wrong is a situation like that. It isn't worth the trouble to exchange words with her. YMMV

My suggestion as well. Nothing good will come of continuing a conversation like this.

[jillleanne]

The key word here is 'drunk'. Why would you waste your time talking with a drunken whomever for any reason? And her spewing out garbage from her mouth justifies walking away from her. If your intention was to prove you have a right to be exactly where you were at the time you still could have turned from her and ignored her whle asking someone to get assistance. Otherwise, be prepared to defend yoruself. Real life situations and politically correct situation rarely cross paths. Choose your poison carefully.

[KarenCDFL]

This rings exactly about what I posted a few days ago.

1) People in general don't accept people who cross dress or are different from them..
2) People in general can't take especially about how they look.

And never and I mean never say anything to someone in a bar who is on their way to getting totally sh*t-faced.

And what was a couple who sounded straight from your posting doing in a gay bar?

A number of years ago we used to have pretty good Gay Club here in South Florida called the Copa which was destroyed in the 2005 hurricane.

They used to host a ton of different parties such as Fetish and so on and it was a nice place for our crowd.

One evening about 20 of us went there in drab with SO's and friends because they had the best dance music in town and got nothing but crap from the patrons wanting to know what all of the "straight" people were screwing up their club.

So much for acceptance from the people who beg to be accepted.

[EllieOPKS]

I think the defining moment was when the drunk girl said "I'll say whatever I want, I don't care". This is a no win situation when you are dealing with a mental midget. I seen a few of these types in bars. She thinks she is witty and will impress her drinking buddies with her "bold" comments. Getting far away is the best thing you can do, including leaving the bar. Telling the bartender or security that she is way drunk is another good step. Generally people like this will find someone else to target if you go off the radar. Of course you could always call the police and give a good description of their vehicle when they leave. Then she can say "whatever she wants" when trying to walk a straight line. :)

[moondog]

Pretty difficult to have a meaningful conversation with someone who says "I don't care." Why bother? Walk away and have a nice night out with friends.

[sherri]

Unless you're a drama queen yourself, arguing with a drunk is a losing proposition. Arguing with two drunks is like pouring gasoline on fire. Your mistake was in responding in kind, putting you on their level. Disengage, dudette.

[Presh GG]

This is what alcohal does to people, turns them into fools. So I wouldn't make this about gender ..hers or yours. Put the blame on the drink.

And yes, there are problems anywhere anyone has too much to drink [ even a gay bar ]

BTW,
Sinse you are in Seattle , did you see the shootings outside the pioneer Sq. bar on the news this AM?

I rest my case
Presh GG

[Kate Simmons]

I've seen it at the club I go to. As was mentioned, you can't reason with a drunk and those types I avoid. I'm there to have fun not to be someone else's frustration proxy punching bag. Just stay away from idiots like that.:)

[Sophie_C]

I hate to say this, but I don't think you handled it well. Either brush it off or diffuse it with humor. Letting her get to you caused a fight she wanted to have and ruined your night. There are better ways to do this.