So what do you think?

[JessHaust]

Last night I had some girls over for a friendly card game. We got into a discussion about the term Transgender, with some going with a Umbrella term taking in everyone from cross-dressers to full transexual. This side believed that they were all transgender, but some were cross-dressers and some were transexuals, etc.
The other side of the discussion went with a definition that transgender was only when you truly believed that you were in the wrong body, regardless of how you handled it. Meaning that even if you 'just' cross-dressed but believed that you were female then you were transgender. But if you were happy being male some times and expressing Female other times then you were a Cross-dresser but not transgender.
So what about it girls, what do you think?

[AllieSF]

Since these definitions sometimes vary by country, I will stick with the TG being all inclusive of crossing genders no matter how you do it. If I understand your definition of TG, being in the wrong body, that to me, is clearly a transsexual (TS), regardless of where one goes with it, i.e. stay and live the same to going all the way to post op living full time.

[Nicole Brown]

Hi Jess, My understanding is the same as yours being that transgenered is an umbrella term which covers all aspects of the terms beneath it. Thus, transsexual, crossdresser and all of the less appropriate or equally offensive terms are included.

[kimdl93]

The term transgender is indeed meant to refer to the broad spectrum of individuals who to varying degrees associate the opposite sex. Those who suggest that 'transgender refers to being born in the wrong body have confused the term 'transgender' with with transsexual. Simple as that .

[Karren H]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

[~Joanne~]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

I most certainly second what Karren said. It's good enough for me and makes my head hurt a lot less lol

[sarahcsc]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

yeah... I think there had been some disagreement on the forum historically whereby transsexuals have expressed on more than one occasion that crossdressers are "fence sitters" and are in some ways "lesser" individuals.

I agree with Karen that we shouldn't aim to categorize ourselves but having said that, a classification system is needed to address the public. Crossdressers are simply different but not in any way inferior. I don't think the public views us CDs and TGs very differently anyway so why bother?

[Acastina]

The term has certainly migrated around. Back in the 1980s it generally referred to non-op transsexuals. Then it lost the "-ed", as in "transgendered person", and its life as an adjective, becoming a descriptive noun, "transgender", denoting a transgendered person. Then it morphed into the umbrella term of all cross-gendered behaviors (CD, TV, TS, non-op, etc.). Finally, I understand it today (and I think it's the best conceptual view) to encompass all behaviors that transgress gender norms. That would include gay (M and F) and bisexual, since they transgress gender norms in their sexuality. Makes more sense than conceiving of trans behaviors as a subset of gay, since so many CDs can't be said to have sexual orientation variance and thus are something else. In other words, transgender includes those who transgress sexual-orientation gender norms and those who transgress gender identity/presentation/clothing & related/social-role norms.

We live in societies that have and enforce (to some extent) gender binaries grounded on anatomy and behavioral norms: masculine males mating with feminine females is the normative model, with a pretty broad range of acceptable masculinity and femininity. Anything that can't be shoehorned into the binary, from drag queens to once-a-year closeted panty fetishists, and all of the variations our members know so well, is transgendered.

IMHO...

[Richelle423]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?
I totally agree with Karren.We all do it for different reasons.Wether it be full dressed or just underdressing.

[Teri Ray]

I vote for a whole new set of terms to define people who choose to wear clothing designated for the opposite gender. That would be "men who dress as girls" or "women who dress as men". I am with Karren on this one Pfffffffff who cares. The only label I care about is the one on my can of pork and beans that lets me know "CONTAINS NO TRANS FAT"

[Kate Simmons]

I think that we are who we believe we are. Everything else is just a cleaning up of the details.:)

[Marleena]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

Good answer Karren! That sure simplifies matters.:)

[Jilmac]

I'll go with the umbrella definition.

[PretzelGirl]

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

Dang! And here I was wearing my own clothing and not sharing. :D

Words are just used to convey a thought to others that is clear. Obviously this one is never clear since we can never agree. But we do have to realize that the general public hears TG as part of LGBT so it ends up being all encompassing in their minds since we are all one "letter".

[docrobbysherry]

Last night I had some girls over for a friendly card game. We got into a discussion about the term Transgender, with some going with a Umbrella term taking in everyone from cross-dressers to full transexual. This side believed that they were all transgender, but some were cross-dressers and some were transexuals, etc.
The other side of the discussion went with a definition that transgender was only when you truly believed that you were in the wrong body, regardless of how you handled it. Meaning that even if you 'just' cross-dressed but believed that you were female then you were transgender. But if you were happy being male some times and expressing Female other times then you were a Cross-dresser but not transgender.
So what about it girls, what do you think?
One quick question, Jess. Were these "girls" CDs, Trans, or GGs? Karren and I need to KNOW!

[Jacqueline Winona]

I'm with Karren as well- too many labels. We all are who we are, we care for each other regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, and we all understand each other. That's enough for me.

[DonnaT]

From the GLAAD Media Guide‘s Transgender Glossary:
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. The term may include but is not limited to: transsexuals, cross-dressers, and other gender-variant people.

Transgender people may identify as female-to-male (FTM) or male-to-female (MTF). Use the descriptive term (transgender, transsexual, cross-dresser, FTM or MTF) preferred by the individual. Transgender people may or may not decide to alter their bodies hormonally and/or surgically.

Virginia Prince coined the term transgenderist, i.e., a crossdresser who lived full time enfemme. The term transgender is derived from that.

Personally, as a CD, I consider myself to be transgender. This is because something unexplainable is inside me that drove me to crossdress, to continue to crossdress and won't let me stop.

[Vickie_CDTV]

It is a poorly defined term. Depending on the context, the user may intend to include TV & TS, or use TG as a "polite" term for TS. I noticed within the immediate TG community it usually intends to mean TV & TS, and outside it tends to intend TS only (those who transition, change their gender etc., and not the occasional dresser.)

I wish we'd go back to using "TV/TS community" when meaning both, as they did before the mid-90s.

[Sammy777]

You want to see something equal parts sad and scary?
Go to: Yahoo Answers (http://answers.yahoo.com/) and type in " transgender transsexual ".
You will see pages of people asking the question -
What is the difference between a transgender and a transsexual and other such variations.
The huge amount of misunderstanding and misinformation given out by regular people and by so-called "experts" makes you want to throw-up.

[taís]

I'm one that would like to ban each and every label, believing that it would bring joy throughout the world and etc ^ ^. but to answer clearly to the OP, please allow me to subscribe what Allie and Kim said:


being in the wrong body, that to me, is clearly a transsexual (TS), regardless of where one goes with it, i.e. stay and live the same to going all the way to post op living full time.


The term transgender is indeed meant to refer to the broad spectrum of individuals who to varying degrees associate the opposite sex. Those who suggest that 'transgender refers to being born in the wrong body have confused the term 'transgender' with with transsexual. Simple as that .

[Krististeph]

Yes. That's my answer. I like using the terms as accepted in there differential descriptions. Guess i'm 30/70 TV/TS, i prefer TG, for various reasons, though i am not a full time CD. Not that I would be opposed to it, but i have other circumstances to consider.

[ninapuella]

First of all i dont think it is that important. I dont know what I am.

But my feeling is that transgenders are more "specialized" in the world of crossdressing. A transgendered takes it all to another level but still want to be a male. A crossdresser is more crossdressing for fun or satisfaction, can be very good at it but it is just crossdressing and then nothing more.

A transvestite dress only for the sexual pleasure.

A transexual feel that he/she wants to live as the opposite sex, its more complicated.

[JessHaust]

One quick question, Jess. Were these "girls" CDs, Trans, or GGs? Karren and I need to KNOW!

The girls were all CD and my future son-in-law, not CD, was also with us, so we had his opinion too.

[Julogden]

In order to carry on discussions with each other, we have to have at least some labels, and as far as I'm concerned, using the term transgender as a catch-all makes sense when discussing issues surrounding gender identity issues with people who aren't like us. I really don't see how using "transgender" as an umbrella term in any way forces a restrictive label on anyone.

The term originally referred to a specific group of people who live as a member of the the opposite sex without undergoing sex reassignment surgery, originated by Virginia Prince, if I'm remembering correctly.

Carol

[sonna]

i see this discustion over and over again. knowbody will ever completley agree to the terms
of what means what. so (lets just be who we are) and stop trying to put a lable on it.

[Chickhe]

I actually prefer terms that describe the action (ie: I sometimes cross-dress or dress in drag or crossplay), not the feelings (ie: feel like a woman, In the wrong body... ) but you could go either way. The problem with any word, is they mean different things to different people so you will always have a debate. Personally, I think people worry too much about what category they fit in and they should talk more about what they actually enjoy doing.

[Julogden]

You know, I really don't get why anyone objects to the use of an umbrella term. It's essentially the same as saying that carrots, beans, peas, lettuce and cauliflower are all vegetables, vegetable being an umbrella term to cover all those food items and more. It doesn't imply that a carrot is a bean, or anything other than a carrot.

Same thing with "transgender", it's just a term to include a rich spectrum of people who have one thing in common, a gender presentation of one kind or another that is in opposition to their birth sex. It doesn't in the least pigeonhole or stereotype anyone as far as I can see.

The term has value when trying to discuss issues that affect all or most of us under the umbrella.

Carol

[Teddie]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

What she said! :daydreaming:

[KrystalA]

Awww....trans this, trans that, whatever. You want to know what I like to be called? I like to be called Krystal, thank you very much!

[Raychel]

My opinion for what it is worth, I am thinking that Transgender is an umbrella term for all people male of female that don't fit in the standard gender rules,

I have been called every name in the book. So no matter what you call me, I will not be offended. But I really much prefer that you call me either "A Friend" "Ray" or "Raychel"

[Cheryl T]

I vote we stop trying to apply terms to ourselves and leave that to others who are concerned with labeling people.
As Karren said, it creates a class structure that alienates people who technically are all the same. We all enjoy expressing our feminine side, but in varying degrees and styles. We should all be united to further our cause and gain acceptance in the world and not let these labels create separation and dissention within our community. There are too many already that do that for us.

P.S. - I think of myself as Transgendered. I feel that is also a much more polite term than many that we are called.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

A rose by any other name would still be a rose, that is all!!!

[JessHaust]

I want to thank you all for your opinions.

A little more background - I writing a book that I hope will help educate the general public about us all, as well as serve as a guidebook for those of us new to expressing our feelings, a opposed to suppressing them.
I had already written the chapter explaining about all of our wonderful variations when this subject came up at my party. I want to be as fair as possible and include as much information as I can.
This thread has taught me that I need to make sure that both sides of this word are included and also to add the very positive side of no labels to it.
The book in general has a tone of 'You can't label anyone as any one thing' running through it, but now I will put empahsis on it as it pertains to the word Transgender.

Please keep the comments coming.

[Kathy Smith]

As a crossdresser I have little problem with accepting "transgendered" as an umbrella term, although IMHO someone has to be attempting to present as the opposite gender for it to apply. Thus transvestites (using the current "sleazy" terminology, not the original meaning) and drag queens (probably) aren't transgendered.

The problem comes for TS people. As far as they are concerned, once they have committed themselves to correcting their gender they aren't transgendered at all, just using their correct gender. They don't want the labels of "transgendered" or "crossdresser" applied to them. I have a lot of sympathy with that view and don't blame them at all. I know that, ideally, they want to be recognised fully as their correct gender, but whether that will ever happen I don't know. In a world full of computer records and paperwork it would be an almost impossible task for the systems to accept the sudden disappearance of an adult person and the instant creation of another adult person without death or birth being involved!

I can't think of any way to keep both sides happy here. The current labels have become corrupted too much over the years. IMHO the TSs are in a category of their own. Almost everyone else comes under the TG umbrella, with sub categories where necessary.

[Contessa]

As always I am always late with my post. But I just think that the word Trans=T, should be the overall term. Not transgendered. We all are saying that we follow/like the other gender and wish in some way to change to it. To do so some trans dress, and could be known as Tdressers they are straight or bi-curious. I have used the word curious because as long as you don't act on a fantasy you would not be gay. Tdressers use makep and hair(wig) similar to that of the gender they are trying to master A sissy is only a boy and tomboy is only a girl. Partial dressing with changing their facial features. Sissies and or Tomboy may or may not be gay. Tvestites may be gay and dress for sexual pleasure. A man in a dress or skirt who still has a mustache or beard and wears no makeup or wig is a crossdresser. If I or you are trying to present as a woman then you are no longer crossing over you are already over and passing is your only concern. Unless you are closeted(afraid or embarrassed) to go out. Tsexual is person who wants to change completely to the opposite sex. These people can't be in the wrong body as we don't throw that body away and use a new one. His or her body is altered to fit what the mind is telling them there identity should be. Tgendered is the Tsexual who has completed his or her transition and has finished surgery and now lives as the opposite sex from birth.

As a man I love women. When I am dressed as a Tdresser I say I am not gay I still love women. But that is just not the truth so I say that there is a fantasy that I could be loved as a woman. But I could not say by another woman, so it would be as a curiosity by a man if I had a vagina. Or I would be Tsexual. I am not saying this is correct I just want to give everyone a choice to clarify things in their minds.

Contessa Marie

[RachelPortugal]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

Surely there must be some transexuals out there who aren't bothered about wearing dresses, but just want to be female.

[Gerrijerry]

it is all just words that over time mean different things to different people. You are who you feel and accept your self to be. Let no one else define you but yourself.

[Phylis Nicole Schuyler]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

I second Karren's statement. It may be true that we crossdressers fall under the transgender category, but it leaves us open for many hurtful statements and situations. To paraphrase Shakespeare,"A crossdresser by any other name is still a crossdresser." We just have different degrees of what and how we wear the feminine clothes. IMHO, arguing the transgender definition is like trying to determine which came first; the chicken or the egg. I believe the proteins that form DNA came from the primordial soup came first and thus we are who we choose to think we are. Forget about the politically correct, all inclusive name. I am me, and that is a person who enjoys feminine attire and if I choose to call myself crossdresser or even transgender, it is my opinion of myself and that is all that is important. Sorry if I torqued off anyone. That was not my intention. I will now go back into my closet and continue to peer out through the cracks in the louvers and keep my mouth and fingers shut.

[Julogden]

It may be true that we crossdressers fall under the transgender category, but it leaves us open for many hurtful statements and situations.
Phylis, how do you figure that? What specific sorts of statements and situations are you referring to? Just curious. :)

Carol

[Ally 2112]

I myself do not like labels .But i do appreciate why they are there to me it is to seperate how people feel or for medical reasons (such as trans cder what or ever you think you might be ).My opin is no one is lower on the scale than another one.We should all respect each others feelings or thoughts or opins whether they be right or wrong .Remember we all have opins and 90% of the time we feel we are right about them ! just my opin lol

[Jenniferathome]

I've never considered myself tansgendered. I am a crossdresser, yes, but I am a man, I identify with being a man and I want to be a man. I just happen to enjoy putting on the persona of a woman from time to time. I never identify with being a woman.

[jillleanne]

I was born gender enhanced, I grew up gender enhanced, and I will die gender enhanced. My gender description is fluid and can change at any given moment without my verbal or written consent and therefore, does not require I change 'labels' at different stages of my life.

[busker]

I'm with Karren as well- too many labels. We all are who we are, we care for each other regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, and we all understand each other. That's enough for me.


I have a suspicion for all the dislike of labels, Karren would rather be paid as an ENGINEER than as a coal miner--so labels do matter. The other problem is that these terms I think are beginning to get to be "jargon" and leave the pubic out entirely.
The public is used to seeing these pretty much as synonimous as on applications where some use
SEX==M F
GENDER==M F
So to them sex and gender are the same e.g. a male, or a female. While TS may be transgenedered, wouldn't it best to keep them as transexual non-op or op, and then the rest of can fit under TG if we wish to do so, but then what to do with all the "pleasure seekers" and fetishists? who may NOT want to be TG? That's the problem with umbrella terms--they are useless and confusing. I'm a crossdresser and however I feel about it doesn't change that fact. Someone who has snipped off their parts is NO LONGER a crossdresser. calling a spade a spade used to work very nicely but in trying to be all-encompassing, we're creating a mess.
just an opinion "cause me jammies aren't flame proof."

[Janelle_C]

Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?
I second it or fourth it or want ever its up to now. But I don't think it matters what what you call us we are who we feel we are inside. And that's a little differente for every one. We don't fit into a mold we are who we are!

[busker]

It's essentially the same as saying that carrots, beans, peas, lettuce and cauliflower are all vegetables, vegetable being an umbrella term to cover all those food items and more. It doesn't imply that a carrot is a bean, or anything other than a carrot.
Carol

That's it in a NUTSHELL--if I can use that term. I don't want vegetables--I don't like beans or cauliflower, so I want to told that I will get lettuce, carrots and peas--not vegetables. Most people think of peanuts as nuts--but they are actually in the vegetable family as they grow under ground. I want to be a crossdresser, thank you very much. If I have any transgendered feelings, they don't change the fact that I primarily exhibit those feelings via crossdressing.

[Kari Lynn Franks]

im with Karen on this one


Does it matter? What ever position you choose its going to give someone ammunition to let one person degrade another.. Making a hierarchy means someone's iis on top and someone's on the bottom. "Ohh your just a crossdresser!". Or "your not committed enough to go all the way!". Pffftttt.....

How about we just all like to wear the same clothing but for different reasons?

[Julogden]

I've never considered myself tansgendered. I am a crossdresser, yes, but I am a man, I identify with being a man and I want to be a man. I just happen to enjoy putting on the persona of a woman from time to time. I never identify with being a woman.
Transgender, as an umbrella term, its current definition, doesn't imply anything at all about anyone's gender identity.

Under its current definition, you, as a CD who identifies as and wants to be a man, are indeed under the transgender umbrella. So are transsexuals, drag kings, gender queer people, fetishistic CD's and a zillion other variations, the only common denominator being that everyone under the umbrella is doing something regarding clothes or presentation that is typical of the sex opposite their birth sex.

There is absolutely no hierarchy involved either.

Carol

[vivianann]

I vote we stop trying to apply terms to ourselves and leave that to others who are concerned with labeling people.
As Karren said, it creates a class structure that alienates people who technically are all the same. We all enjoy expressing our feminine side, but in varying degrees and styles. We should all be united to further our cause and gain acceptance in the world and not let these labels create separation and dissention within our community. There are too many already that do that for us.



P.S. - I think of myself as Transgendered. I feel that is also a much more polite term than many that we are called.

I so agree. I consider myself transgendered, we all fit in the wide spectrum of being transgendered.