He, She, pronoun stuff ups

[Kate T]

I was trying to think of a really provocative title for this thread to get everyones attention but I just can't.

Intermittently there are various threads that talk about members being referred to by either the desired or undesired pronoun by the public. (And yes, I have used the term desired as opposed to correct for a reason. Have a good long hard think about why before commenting about that please). Members have responded in various ways, particularly to the use of an undesired pronoun with reactions that vary from running away to outright rudeness.

Now I own a business. Our business has a client whom is TS. For a long time we basically only dealt with this clients (female) wife. Indeed it wasn't until relatively recently that we found out that the wife had a partner. Now recently this client has been also coming to see us with the wife. Now for various reasons I did not know this clients first name. Hmm, awkward. Clearly Mr X was inappropriate whilst the clients wife was already Mrs X. Miss X also doesn't really fit and lets face it Ms looks fine on paper but spoken sound like you are imitating a mosquito. I could ask the client politely their first name (slightly awkward) or use the ubiquitous australian technique for getting out of this situation and avoid any direct addressing of the client and substitute in lots of "no worries mate" (worked well the last option).

Now I like to think I am reasonably gender aware and understanding but I was caught out here. Now imagine a member of the general public that needs to interact with a TG or TS person. Many TS here have declared that they dress frquently in jeans and top or other clothing that is not necessarily gender specific. Many have also said that they wear little or no make up generally and also if they are truthful they have physical characteristics that are often interpreted as masculine (tall, slight frame, larger hands). That member of the public, staff person whatever has decades of social conditioning that subconciously are likely to be conflicted. They see indicators for male pronoun but also indicators for female pronoun. Asking whether you wish to be called by a female or male pronoun is just as likely to cause offence as using the undesired pronoun. So sometimes they stuff it up. I doubt they do it to be rude.

I would suggest that sometimes as a community we need to be very patient and a little understanding. So they got it wrong. Politely correct them. I'm quite sure that they are likely to be that embarassed that they will treat you like a queen (or king) afterwards. That and now they have a positive impression of a TG / TS person. A rude individual is a rude individual, TS or not, and will only generate more intolerance and misunderstanding.

[Kaz]

If you own a business the trick here is to put yourself in the mind of the customer. How do they want to be addressed? Look for clues in correspondence etc... My advice would be to play to their perceptions and perspectives... gender orientation plays second fiddle here... unless you want to sacrifice customers over a more ideological approach to your business? This is a strategic choice... yes this is my day job!

[Kate T]

If you own a business the trick here is to put yourself in the mind of the customer. How do they want to be addressed? Look for clues in correspondence etc... My advice would be to play to their perceptions and perspectives... gender orientation plays second fiddle here... unless you want to sacrifice customers over a more ideological approach to your business? This is a strategic choice... yes this is my day job!

The trick was that all our corrsepondence had been exclusively with the wife. And yes since that initial visit I have find out the clients name and preferred method of address. I was more using the example to illustrate a point though.

[Hope]

This is really an easy issue to deal with:

Address a trans person by the pronouns appropriate for their current presentation. If you see a person obviously presenting as a man, it is all He/Sir. If you see the same person the next day presenting as a woman, you best be all about the "she/her." The only difficulty comes when there is some ambiguity in presentation. This difficulty is easily overcome as well, you simply say "Do you have a preferred pronoun?" and the person in question will tell you. Problem solved.

Yes, LOTS of TS folks (myself included) get torqued when people intentionally, or repeatedly get our pronouns wrong. Because it is intentionally disrespectful. But the vast majority of us understand gender ambiguity and gender confusion and have a LOT of patience with people who are making a sincere effort. Hell, in the early stages of transition, I told people to use whatever pronoun THEY were comfortable with (I don't recommend this, but it happened). The only people I get ticked off with, are the people who intentionally refuse to use my appropriate pronoun, or who are trying to be intentionally hurtful. I understand that the rest of the world is going to have some trouble with this, and that there will be some confusion... as long as there is some sign of effort - we are all good, even when you call me sir. I may look forward to the day you finally get it right, and I may wonder why you can't get it right, but... as long as you are making an effort..

[noeleena]

Hi.

Adina,

To confuse you more tho you have seen my pic lets just say you dont know who i am & i come to see you. (( & i will be in Bris this coming may about the 20 th. ))

Looking at my pic would you say ether way im dressed male / female what would you look for to tell if im male or female because it can go both ways for me. what would guide you to say male or female.

The reason i bring this up is while at our Renaissance camp of 250 people yes all dressed in garb , last week. how would i be seen tho my clothes are a give away more female in style & colour yet i was asked this time how do we address you as melord or melady. now most if not all know im a woman. so am addresed as melady.

Very rare im called a sir or melord. in normalelife im a Ms or just noeleena. if of cause a slip up happens i dont really care. only if its very pointed or may be spite tho i dought it'll happen,

We can a'llways come back to mate wether male or female in talking most time's when im talking with some one i dont know thier name i say im noeleena pleased to meet you then most give thier name. or i ask what name shall we call you by. so then its up to them to answer,

...noeleena...

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Adina, I have to agree with those who saif that they only worry if the choice of pronoun appears to be deliberately designed to offend.

When I'm out & about, I generally don't have a problem because people tend to respond to the visual clues.

My voice is at best ambiguous, so on the phone, I introduce myself as "Ms Rianna Humble" and when they reply "sir", I ask them how many "Ms something" they know who are male. If they don't get it then, I tell them that I do not like to be referred to by "the wrong gender" and if they persist then I ask to speak to a supervisor. If I get an apology, either on the first or 2nd prompt I tell them anyone can make a mistake and I have not taken offence.

Recently I had to deal with someone who persistently refused to use the correct gender for the information that they had received about me, so I made a complaint to the company and suggested that they train their employee on the implications of the Equalities Act in this country.

[Aprilrain]

I don't get it? If you knew this person was a M2F TS then where is the confusion? wether I'm wearing pants or a dress I'm OBVIOUSLY presenting as a female. I don't own a shred of male clothing (except maybe some socks) I have long hair and usually at least wear earrings. I don't think my gender presentation is ambiguous in the least. If the lady who does laser on my genitals can call me she so can the rest of the world!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's really only people that are being mean and disrespectful that bother me. I think Adina you will find most people agree with your comment. Do you have a different experience??

If your appearance is more ambiguous that you would like , that's something that just has to get dealt with...people make the gender "call" almost immediately based on what they see..
most people don't care about gender like we tend to..and most people will go with the flow if you correct them without berating them.

Its easy to underestimate the impact our change has on the people that knew us before transition.

[Sammy777]

Adina, In the situation you describe I find nothing awkward in asking your clients SO what their first name is when meeting them for the first time regardless of how they looked.
Rather simple really. Hi Ms Smith how are you today? Great! [Turn to her SO] Hi I'm Adina and what is your name? It's not rocket science.

Moving on....... :)
I can see the point you're trying to make though.
What does "Joe Q Public" do when faced with an Ambiguous or Androgynous looking person?
We [TS'] aren't the only people out there that can make someone second guess themselves.
There are plenty examples of Girls will be Boys and Boys will be Girls who aren't TS.

I [long before coming out] had long hair and were mistakenly referred to as Female many, many times. I just shrugged it off, corrected them and went about my business.
This happens to a lot of long haired and/or Androgynous looking guys.

It has been my experience that Males who mistakenly get referred to as Female [because of their looks] are already aware of this and will do little more then what I did above.

My point? You will ruffle less feathers calling an Androgynous person [TS or not] a Female then you will calling them Male.

[Kate T]

Sammy
A very valid point regarding using a "default" feminine pronoun. I suspect you are correct.
Also I agree with everyone who has commented that repeated incorrect use of gender specific pronoun is not appropriate. That however was not what I was trying to intimate. I was referring to the apparent "one off" or " first off" incidences.
April, if you know you are female then does it really matter what the rest of the world thinks?
Noeleena I think that I would be proud to call you mate! ;)

[Miranda-E]

I was trying to think of a really provocative title for this thread to get everyones attention but I just can't.

(And yes, I have used the term desired as opposed to correct for a reason.


Now I like to think I am reasonably gender aware and understanding but I was caught out here.



Correct gender vs desired gender in the same paragraph as understanding?
If you know their "desired" gender there is no excuse, no excuse at all for "mistakes".

is "Address a trans person by the pronouns appropriate for their current presentation" really that hard?

[Hope]

April, if you know you are female then does it really matter what the rest of the world thinks?

For a variety of reasons.

First off - having someone deny your identity is painful. Even more-so when it is an identity you put a lot of effort into and risk every relationship, job prospect, and your very life to achieve. Having some twit call me "sir" is a slap in the face that says "You don't get a vote about your identity - I will decide, and I deny your preference." It should be obvious why that matters.

Second, our identities are formed in reflection with others. We may not like to admit that, but it is still true. When others reflect something that isn't right, it hurts, and it is a VERY deep, and VERY OLD, and in most cases not yet healed wound. It would be like looking in the mirror and seeing some sort of disfigurement for 20 years of your life, finally being able to have it corrected, only to have the people who knew you say "I can still see your ... whatever it was"

Finally (and I am sure there are other reasons) A big part of this is how we are perceived as people in the world... this isn't about clothes or body parts as much as it is about the way we interact with the world. If we go through all of this work, and people still treat us like dudes... yeah - it matters.

[Kate T]

For a variety of reasons.

First off - having someone deny your identity is painful. Even more-so when it is an identity you put a lot of effort into and risk every relationship, job prospect, and your very life to achieve. Having some twit call me "sir" is a slap in the face that says "You don't get a vote about your identity - I will decide, and I deny your preference." It should be obvious why that matters.

Second, our identities are formed in reflection with others. We may not like to admit that, but it is still true. When others reflect something that isn't right, it hurts, and it is a VERY deep, and VERY OLD, and in most cases not yet healed wound. It would be like looking in the mirror and seeing some sort of disfigurement for 20 years of your life, finally being able to have it corrected, only to have the people who knew you say "I can still see your ... whatever it was"

Finally (and I am sure there are other reasons) A big part of this is how we are perceived as people in the world... this isn't about clothes or body parts as much as it is about the way we interact with the world. If we go through all of this work, and people still treat us like dudes... yeah - it matters.

I am trying to understand, please believe me. Can I ask this then. Do you need gender to define yourself? Going beyond a social level, more on a shall we say spiritual level?

[Aprilrain]

The idea that all I need is to know I am female in my head and that is enough is the strangest concept to me. This is something that has been debated here before from various angles. If that were enough why go through the expense and heartache of transition? I could simply be a "middle pather". I could live the majority of my life as a male (keep my wife, kids, car, house, family, friends, ie status quo) and get my femme fix on the weekends (or whatever) and "know" that I am female. However one can not know anything that one has not experienced. I used to not agree with the idea that we TSes have a birth defect, there was nothing wrong with my body, it functioned quite well in spite of my concerted efforts to poison it with drugs and alcohol. Now I understand that while indeed my body is in good working order it's the wrong one. You ask if it spiritual I say emphatically YES! My spirit can not soar because my body betrays it. Slowly my spirit dies. There has never in the course of human history been only one person on the planet. I suppose it could be posable for there to be only one left but until such time our lives ARE our relationships and if those people do not see us for who we really are than a little piece of us dies. If you are cisgendered, which I take it you are, there is NO WAY for you to understand, luckily your understanding is not required. You can choose to be sympathetic or not it makes no difference to me. My goal is to get as close to passing 100% of the time as possible so that people like you don't have to think about what a genetic male in a dress might want to be refers to as.

[Kate T]

If you are cisgendered, which I take it you are, there is NO WAY for you to understand, luckily your understanding is not required. You can choose to be sympathetic or not it makes no difference to me. My goal is to get as close to passing 100% of the time as possible so that people like you don't have to think about what a genetic male in a dress might want to be refers to as.
Ouch.
I am trying to understand because if I can have some inkling of understanding then I believe that will make me a more accepting more tolerant person.

[Aprilrain]

Ouch.
I am trying to understand because if I can have some inkling of understanding then I believe that will make me a more accepting more tolerant person.

It's not an insult Adina if you are not trans you will never know what that feels like. Be thankful you have the gender blind spot that ALL cis people have, you can take your gender for granted. All you need to understand if you want to be compassionate is that it hurts deeply to be misgendered. Regardless of the intentions of the person misgendering the pain is real. In fact if there is no malice than the pain is even worse because it says to me that all my efforts to portray the real me have been for not. Regardless of how seemingly innocent people's intentions are it seems to me that being called sir or he when CLEARLY presenting as a female is simply a cisgendered individuals way of exercising cis privilege. It's like like calling a black man "boy"

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yes...It turns out i need gender to define myself..
Do you know how i found out?? it was 45 years of trying to deny it.

And Adina so do you. You just can't externalize this fundamental human need, because you are blessed with a life that conforms to your gender as an integral part of your identity..It was never in doubt for you. You can't go to a place in your head where it was any different..

Identity includes having it reflected back at you. So it does matter. It matters less than what you do for yourself, but it matters alot nonetheless...

[Sammy777]

I think it is important to separate the intentionally mean spirited people from the genuinely confused people.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point Adina is trying to make is what happens when someone is genuinely confused about what to call someone.

For example: What would be your first instinct when seeing the person in the pic below?
Would you call this person Sir or Miss? And you only have about 3 seconds to do it.
So do not cheat by studying the picture for 2 minutes.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/fk5mkh.jpg

[Bree-asaurus]

For example: What would be your first instinct when seeing the person in the pic below?
Would you call this person Sir or Miss? And you only have about 3 seconds to do it.
So do not cheat by studying the picture for 2 minutes.


I'd do my d**ned best to not use a pronoun... and somehow I'd probably still mess up :P

Here's your burger and fries... uhh... pineapples!

[Aprilrain]

Im guessing from the disaster behind them that its a boy! ; )

[Kate T]

Yes...It turns out i need gender to define myself..
Do you know how i found out?? it was 45 years of trying to deny it.

And Adina so do you. You just can't externalize this fundamental human need, because you are blessed with a life that conforms to your gender as an integral part of your identity..It was never in doubt for you. You can't go to a place in your head where it was any different..

Identity includes having it reflected back at you. So it does matter. It matters less than what you do for yourself, but it matters alot nonetheless...

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
If noone can see the forest does it still exist as a forest?
I am way off topic. We may need to discuss this in another thread if anyone is interested.

Sammy. Thanks. Yes that is what I was trying to get at.

[Bree-asaurus]

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
If noone can see the forest does it still exist as a forest?
I am way off topic. We may need to discuss this in another thread if anyone is interested.

I'm up for that... and to get us started by countering your questions: You don't know what it's like to have cancer unless you have cancer. *clap clap clap* Oh and that's the sound of me clapping with one hand :P

[Sammy777]

I'd do my d**ned best to not use a pronoun... and somehow I'd probably still mess up :P Here's your burger and fries... uhh... pineapples!
We do have an advantage over guys, we can get away with hun, sweety, ect. when in doubt. LOL


Im guessing from the disaster behind them that its a boy! ; )
Nope the person in the pic is a [genetic] girl. :D
Not to worry though, about 57% of the people that answered also said Male.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
If noone can see the forest does it still exist as a forest?
I am way off topic. We may need to discuss this in another thread if anyone is interested.

Sammy. Thanks. Yes that is what I was trying to get at.

no idea what you mean..

did you not ask the question? is there something unclear ...you asked, i answered...
i think maybe you hear only one hand clapping because you seem to like using your other hand to pat yourself on the back..

[EnglishRose]

A clap is an onomatopoeic term referring to one object hitting another. Therefore the sound of the clap has to reflect the sound made by that one hand "clapping" against something else.

An item cannot clap on its own.

Furthermore, what do rhetorical philosophical troll questions (I don't mean the OP is trolling) have to do with anything?!

[arbon]

I am trying to understand, please believe me. Can I ask this then. Do you need gender to define yourself? Going beyond a social level, more on a shall we say spiritual level?

When I am dead who knows? but, there is that saying "we are spiritual beings having a human experience". A big part of that human experience is gender.

[Kate T]

A clap is an onomatopoeic term referring to one object hitting another. Therefore the sound of the clap has to reflect the sound made by that one hand "clapping" against something else.

An item cannot clap on its own.

Furthermore, what do rhetorical philosophical troll questions (I don't mean the OP is trolling) have to do with anything?!

Point taken re definition.
I did not intend to troll regarding the analogy.

[Kate T]

no idea what you mean..

did you not ask the question? is there something unclear ...you asked, i answered...
i think maybe you hear only one hand clapping because you seem to like using your other hand to pat yourself on the back..

I may have misread you sorry Kaitlyn.
My poorly posted analogy was a genuine query as to whether it is essential for gender to be defined in reference to how others perceive us or whether a person can define themselves independant of anything external and independant of gender.

BTW my hand surely won't be able to reach my back with my big head in the way. :)

[JLynn17]

I know personally when I go out I dont ever get any sirs too often, from the younger female cashiers i usually get a thank you and just like a have a good day or something like that, or something to that nature... the older female cashiers i get alot baby dolls, and huns which dont bother me at all, never have i been out right called lady or anything like that, right now im very androgynous, i gotten a few atta girls from friends when i do something good lol, either way sir ma'am baby doll or hunny Im gonna keep a smile on my face, but gotta admit baby doll is my favorite :-P

[Hope]

I am trying to understand, please believe me. Can I ask this then. Do you need gender to define yourself? Going beyond a social level, more on a shall we say spiritual level?

Because gender is a part of our identity. It is for you too, it is simply opaque to you. Think I'm kidding? Answer the following question: "Are you a man or a woman?" Your answer is your gender identity. Cis folks are simply privileged enough to have their identity match their physical bodies, and take this for granted.

You like thought experiments, try this one: If someone offered you 100,000,000 USD to live the rest of your life in the gender opposite to the one you feel comfortable in, would you take it? The VAST majority of cis folks say "no." There are a LOT of things that most people would do for $100,000,000 but living in an alternate gendered body is not one of them. if it is no big deal, why not take the $$$?


Ouch.
I am trying to understand because if I can have some inkling of understanding then I believe that will make me a more accepting more tolerant person.

Have you ever had a job that made you miserable? Not a crummy job, just a job that wasn't a good fit? Most folks have. If you haven't, think about your least favorite subject in school. You know how you felt at that job, or sitting through that class? Now imagine that you can never go home from that job, or subject in school. There is no way out, you can't quit, you get no days off and you will be required to do this job for the rest of your life.

Sound like fun?

That is as close to the pre-transition experience as you will ever get. Be incredibly glad for that, and be glad that we have found a way out of the misery that is accounting.

[Kate T]

Because gender is a part of our identity. It is for you too, it is simply opaque to you. Think I'm kidding? Answer the following question: "Are you a man or a woman?" Your answer is your gender identity. Cis folks are simply privileged enough to have their identity match their physical bodies, and take this for granted.

Do you feel then there truly is only a gender binary, right down at the core of our identity? (I think this entirely plausible). What do I answer to your question? I would reflexively say a man. So why am I not uncomfortable presenting as a woman as well? Maybe I really am just a man in a dress and I am deluding myself that I am presenting as a woman.
An alternative could be though whilst I am a male anatomically, can my gender be variable?


You like thought experiments, try this one: If someone offered you 100,000,000 USD to live the rest of your life in the gender opposite to the one you feel comfortable in, would you take it? The VAST majority of cis folks say "no." There are a LOT of things that most people would do for $100,000,000 but living in an alternate gendered body is not one of them. if it is no big deal, why not take the $$$?

Again immediate response is as you would expect. But correct me if I'm wrong, would you take the $100,000,000 USD to live the rest of your life without transitioning (i.e. in the gendered body opposite to the one you feel comfortable in). I'm not sure if that was what you meant exactly so please correct me if I've misinterpreted.

PS: Now if it was Aussie Dollars :p



Have you ever had a job that made you miserable? Not a crummy job, just a job that wasn't a good fit? Most folks have. If you haven't, think about your least favorite subject in school. You know how you felt at that job, or sitting through that class? Now imagine that you can never go home from that job, or subject in school. There is no way out, you can't quit, you get no days off and you will be required to do this job for the rest of your life.

Sound like fun?

That is as close to the pre-transition experience as you will ever get. Be incredibly glad for that, and be glad that we have found a way out of the misery that is accounting.

I can never truly "know" your experience. But I will continue to do my best to try and understand what I can.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Adina..thanks for the clarification..i'm glad.

I'll take a swim in the rabbit hole..
All of this stuff is a bit theoretical but its not theoretical to us at all!!! The analogy of $100mk could be even more stark....

Here's a gun...its got 5 bullets, one empty.... would you pull the trigger for $100million? who can say..

would a ts person, forbidden to transition, pull it if the bet was to die or be instantly made a woman? sooner or later, you bet they would.. and transition is so brutal that many wait right up until that point... if you don't feel that way ..that's a good thing!!

IMNSHO:heehee:
We live in a binary gendered world. Two genders...that's it... Saying anything else is just political correctness, and does not reflect day to day human life on this planet. If your own gender does not fit, you have a quality of life issue.
You are an outsider..and how you deal/cope with it will have powerful implications to your quality of life.

I can't say whether people (as opposed to the world people live in) are binary gendered. It's clear that many people view themselves as fluidly or multi gendered.
It's clear that many people don't experience genders that match their biology..
It can be said that we procreate...biology matters..as men and women we propagate humanity, when a gender queer person makes a child, they are doing it biologically as either a man or woman... regardless of how their brain or soul looks at it...

So the unknowable question of "are there multiple/fluid genders in your soul" is balanced by the knowable, which is that if you are not either a man or a woman you are an outsider, and you are marginalized and/or shunned in almost every society.

As far as understanding transsexuals.. i believe the world is made up of experiences for us as humans...and each of us is unique, and we experience life differently,
and our lives are defined by our experiences, and everything we experience needs to be processed by our brain, perhaps our soul...

gender is so incredibly fundamental to our experience that EVERYTHING is filtered through that lens..it may even by that our identity IS part of your gender...EVERYTHING about us biologically is there to facilitate survival and procreation... and we procreate as men and women....gender is everything.

It stands to reason society is the same way...survival and procreation...it goes that deep... you are a mans son...mommy's little tiger..you are daddy's little girl...and so goes your entire life...all biology pointing towards making children..some can't have kids, some are gay, that's just another variation of biology..we are not perfect from a procreation standpoint.

As you experience life....your maleness is a fundamental part of everything you experience....both what you do and say, and what others reflect back at you..
but you are female... and the feedback doesnt resonate. it doesnt fill you up..
you respond best you can...you use logic, force of will, observation, whatever it takes to fit in...if you express outwardly your femaleness it is brutally suppressed in many ways, including violence!!!!! no one ever reflects your femaleness back at you...it challenges you every day....it is fricking confusing and scary...

Compared to a crossdresser, this is very different...Wearing a dress does not change your filter...the crossdresser is experiencing things as a man, but enjoys time spent "feeling like a woman" ..some in the basement, some sexually, some at the mall being "maamed"...for some reason it feels good...its a very interesting thing in itself, but its not being a woman in any way ..

If we invest so deeply in trying to be male.. its just pouring your soul into a hole...you go on in life and you just don't realize what its like for "everybody else"... its like being alone in a crowded room..all day, every day...human interactions start to hurt...or they lose all meaning..
it may not happen until you are 70..but it will happen..
you just can't survive feeling like you don't exist... nobody "understands" you..
your feelings are incomprehensible to others...
and its in this terrible predicament that many of us realize that we have to transition or die (or feel like dying every moment)...and its in this horrible state that we make life changing decisions to pull the trigger..

i share all this because i feel lots and lots of people are trying to figure things out...i can't say i'm right or wrong..but if anyone is seriously asking the question..thats my own way too long answer..:o

I transitioned...i am now enjoying the feeling of "gender consonance" ..its a pretty boring feeling...i take it for granted now..but when i go back and read my journals, it looks like a crazy person..

i would venture adina that i experience gender (w/o a past to rely on unfortunately) the same way any woman does...and it feels like...........nothing. But i live for me now, i experience a life that feels right...:hugs:

[Aprilrain]

Again immediate response is as you would expect. But correct me if I'm wrong, would you take the $100,000,000 USD to live the rest of your life without transitioning (i.e. in the gendered body opposite to the one you feel comfortable in). I'm not sure if that was what you meant exactly so please correct me if I've misinterpreted.

Even if the person took the 100mk their life would probably be very short and or very miserable

[Bree-asaurus]

and its in this terrible predicament that many of us realize that we have to transition or die (or feel like dying every moment)...and its in this horrible state that we make life changing decisions to pull the trigger..

i share all this because i feel lots and lots of people are trying to figure things out...i can't say i'm right or wrong..but if anyone is seriously asking the question..thats my own way too long answer..:o

I transitioned...i am now enjoying the feeling of "gender consonance" ..its a pretty boring feeling...i take it for granted now..but when i go back and read my journals, it looks like a crazy person..

i would venture adina that i experience gender (w/o a past to rely on unfortunately) the same way any woman does...and it feels like...........nothing. But i live for me now, i experience a life that feels right...:hugs:

I'm just quoting your ending summary to say that I think you did a pretty good job answering a question that doesn't really have an answer... "What is it like to be transexual?"

I was just asked this in a PM... and I think this is a pretty good answer :)

I haven't fully transitioned, so I'm not all the way there yet. But I do know that every step I've taken in self acceptance and aligning my body and my life with my identity (of which I do believe gender is an integral part) has brought me closer and closer to this boring feeling you describe. I'm just happy to not have to deal with as much internal conflict bull**** as I used to... and hope one day I won't have to deal with it at all.


Even if the person took the 100mk their life would probably be very short and or very miserable

I was well off for a while. I tried to buy happiness. It doesn't work. Right now I'm the poorest I've been, and the happiest I've been.

So screw the money offer, give me the russian roulette offer :P

[Kate T]

I was just asked this in a PM... and I think this is a pretty good answer :)


Agreed

Kaitlyn thankyou. As I have said, I do not and cannot "know" your experience. But I do feel like I have gained perhaps a small amount in understanding of who you are.

Correct if I'm missing the mark completely but perhaps to me you describe before your transition "you" (meaning you as a person, a female person) was invisible. It was like everyone ignored you, that you did not even exist. Because of this you were incredibly lonely? And more though. Lonely doesn't quite cut it. When someone spoke to you or dealt with you as male then they weren't really speaking to you and it just reinforced the sense of not existing.
However once someone addressed you and dealt with you as female then it was like you truly did exist? The emptiness and loneliness were perhaps a little less?

And this explains (to me) the "slap in the face" that you feel if someone, even innocently, refers to you as the wrong gender with pronouns or any other method. Because it is like you really don't exist.

It took me 3 reads of your post to get this far Kaitlyn so I'm sorry if I'm still way off the mark. Thankyou for trying though. :hugs:

[Hope]

Do you feel then there truly is only a gender binary, right down at the core of our identity? (I think this entirely plausible). What do I answer to your question? I would reflexively say a man. So why am I not uncomfortable presenting as a woman as well? Maybe I really am just a man in a dress and I am deluding myself that I am presenting as a woman.
An alternative could be though whilst I am a male anatomically, can my gender be variable?

I do not think that there is a gender binary. I think that, just like sexuality and every other aspect of human experience, there is a subtle gradation from F to M with every imaginable and conceivable variation in-between. A quick tromp through almost any transgender community confirms that. In a trans community you can find everything from the male bodied ultra femme woman (Hi!) to the male bodied butch woman, to the male bodied androgynous person, to the female bodied androgynous person, to the female bodied metro dude, to the female bodied uber masculine man - and everything else in-between, including cross dressers, drag performers, eunuchs, gender queer, and anything else you can come up with to cram under the tens umbrella. While the vast majority of folks are fortunate enough to have their gender identity and physical sex match, there is even significant variation in the cis community, from very butch women, to very femme men (though those are much less common).

What I DO however believe is that social pressure, particularly in the western world, encourages gender conformity and reinforces the binary, so that those who have male bodies are rewarded for presenting and behaving in stereotypically butch male ways - AND (though to a much lesser extent) those who have female bodies are rewarded for presenting and behaving in stereotypically femme ways. Predictably, this leads to gender conformity, so that those who, say have female bodies, but who also possess butch gender identities, behave in ways that are more femme than is authentic in order to conform to the gender ideal... this leads to the appearance of a much stricter gender binary than what really exists in the wild...

I don't however think that gender is particularly variable. If it were, then some of the research that has gone into finding a method to"fix" gender variant people would have turned up some sort of solution, or perhaps a promise of a solution other than physical transition. If gender were variable then there would be a way for me to be able to tolerate living as a man, which has never been my experience.



Again immediate response is as you would expect. But correct me if I'm wrong, would you take the $100,000,000 USD to live the rest of your life without transitioning (i.e. in the gendered body opposite to the one you feel comfortable in). I'm not sure if that was what you meant exactly so please correct me if I've misinterpreted.

That immediate visceral response is the one that tells the truth.

And to clarify, having experienced the nightmare of living in the wrong body, there is NO sum of money that you could present me with that would make me willing to go back.


I can never truly "know" your experience. But I will continue to do my best to try and understand what I can.

Fair enough... no one can ever know another person's experience, but the fact that you make the effort is impressive.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Agreed

Kaitlyn thankyou. As I have said, I do not and cannot "know" your experience. But I do feel like I have gained perhaps a small amount in understanding of who you are.

Correct if I'm missing the mark completely but perhaps to me you describe before your transition "you" (meaning you as a person, a female person) was invisible. It was like everyone ignored you, that you did not even exist. Because of this you were incredibly lonely? And more though. Lonely doesn't quite cut it. When someone spoke to you or dealt with you as male then they weren't really speaking to you and it just reinforced the sense of not existing.
However once someone addressed you and dealt with you as female then it was like you truly did exist? The emptiness and loneliness were perhaps a little less?

And this explains (to me) the "slap in the face" that you feel if someone, even innocently, refers to you as the wrong gender with pronouns or any other method. Because it is like you really don't exist.

It took me 3 reads of your post to get this far Kaitlyn so I'm sorry if I'm still way off the mark. Thankyou for trying though. :hugs:

Wow, thnx...
I don't know why i felt compelled to write so much on this, so i appreciate you reading it..

That seems right...lonely is a good proxy....isolated and trapped in a vicious inner dialogue... feeling ashamed because that binary we talk about is in your face all day, feeling hopeless because how could i ever succeed? it was really bad...and it got worse..

and since my contention is that every single human interaction has a gender component in it, every single interaction reminded me of my issue.. i don't know how so many of us cope with it so long..so many of us thrive at first...i wonder if it just takes ALL of your mental energy and at some point your defenses just can't function anymore....this experience is what causes so many ts people to overreact when crossdressers are fantasizing about being female ...that seems like a totally cool fantasy, but it feels wrong to transsexuals that experienced it as mostly pain and suffering..

my own personal experience post transition is that when people call me he, it is only people that knew me a long time as male, so i just correct them and move on.. today it feels like an irritating reminder of my past rather than a real slap in the face...

Hope makes a great point too which is that if gender really was variable, that is inconsistent with how many people give up and risk so much to transition.

[Empress Lainie]

Kaitlyn it took me 72 years!

In my favorite band there are two people who are so androgynous I honestly could not tell if they were male or female. This week after 4 years, they were introduced as "Mr" so and so, and the other one I found out as they said HER mother is in the audience. I really think that one is ftm.

Regarding use of pronouns relating to myself; some people who have known me forever sometimes slip and say he or him, then usually apologize. I tell them, its OK, I understand slipping up. But I had one "friend" who was very deliberate in talking to others calling me he and him. I confronted her, showing her my F driver license, and telling her I AM legally female, and I expect you to respect that. Her response was: "I can say anything I want to anybody I want." So I have never spoken to her since or invited her out to dinner again, and never plan to.