"She Shouldn't Be Transitioning"

[Princess Chantal]

Being in the Winnipeg transgender scene for several years now, I've heard the questioning and the chitter chatter of the legitimacy of one's transitioning by other tg folks over and over again. I don't know what provokes them to do the questioning and never asked what their beliefs were.
When they ask for my opinion on the legitimacy, I either tend to ignore the question or answer with "Doesn't matter, it does not change my support of (the person in question)'s decision".

So laying that out, what are your thoughts of a person going through SRS and other transitioning procedures for strictly cosmetic for appearance and living preferences with no (or very little) GID reasons?
Do you believe that GID should be required to proceed to the SRS?

[Miranda-E]

"It's the way I want to live my life" should be more than enough.

[RachelOKC]

What right is it for me to question someone else's decision to transition or have SRS? How are any of us to know what's in someone else's head? I've heard a lot of second guessing of others and it usually just strikes me as someone being trannier-than-thou.

I had a CD friend who got a boob job. As far as I knew, he (I only say he because that's pretty much how I knew him) had no plans to transition and I don't think he did much CD'ing outside of home and a few safe places. But a boob job he got because he wanted one, and he didn't care what people thought of him in his civilian maintenance job on a military base. I never understood his motivation to get implants but it wasn't my need to. He knew what he was doing and if he was happy with it, then so be it. It didn't make him any less of a person in my book, just perhaps a bit odder than the average bear. It would not have been my decision to do it the way he did.

I'd hope that people would be well informed and would make decisions with professional guidance but I personally just don't like to judge what other people do. It somehow feels like it gives people license to judge me in return.

[Rachel Flowers]

Professionals who perform the surgery have a duty to be satisfied the person is seeking transition for long term reasons and I'd be reluctant to say public money should be used in purely cosmetic cases, but otherwise, it's no-ones else's business.

Yet gossip & judgement is part of human nature. Sad but true that here we are seeking to avoid being judged yet we judge each other!

[Vickie_CDTV]

Seeing what many of my TS friends have been through, I cannot imagine someone would ever have SRS unless they had GID and felt they had no other choice. It isn't reversible (for practical purposes), is very expensive and carries risks (among them being left without the ability to orgasm), therefore I couldn't imagine an otherwise non-TS male having that done to their existing functional male genitals just for superficial reasons, unless they had some other issues.

Someone who had issues and not GID and did reverse their sex change is a man named Charles Kane. He is an example of someone who did not have SRS due to GID and just did it to live out his fantasy, and well... it didn't work out well in the long run. Folks like this really should not be approved for SRS. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/charles-transregret-transgender-kids-sex-change-primetime-nightline-14425447

[Patsy]

Actually, I can see how someone might get caught up in this whole game and have SRS when it wasn't really appropriate. Maybe you are stereotypical cross-dresser, you start taking hormones, your mind changes, becomes almost female, you look on SRS as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You somehow feel that everything will be wonderful. Of course, it isn't, everything is the same, except that now you're a second class woman, in a society where women are already second class. The only reason to have SRS is if your appendage disgusts you and you can't live wiv it. Otherwise I'd say it's very low on the TS agenda. More to do wiv how you appear in public. Lots of guys like a bit extra, so it ain't really a disadvantage in the dating game, especially if otherwise you come over as really female. You have to be really, really sure to have SRS. Any doubts at all, don't do it. You do it for you, not for other people. It won't make you more attractive to men, in fact it will cut off a big proportion of dating partners. OK, you want a real man, but how many real men will go wiv an ersatz woman. Short time maybe, but long time - well you have a lot of competition out there from the GGs, you'd have to be something pretty special. I wouldn't say it's impossible, there are women who have done it, but as I say they were pretty special. For the majority of us, just getting a guy is the first problem, then getting him to stay is the second problem, then getting him to stay long time is the third problem. If they're wiv U to start wiv maybe they like that little bit extra, and if you dump it maybe they'll dump you. Think very, very carefully, before you dump you're competitive advantage. When you become, or are perceived as, a woman you fall outside the male perspective as a competitor, but you fall into a whole new ball game. There are few good men out there, but there are an awful lot of females chasing them.

[Kerstin]

If a person wants to transition and have SRS then that's their business. However I think that doctors have a responsibility to ensure that patients are given appropriate treatment. Because of the nature of the British healthcare system, I don't think a person should be given hormones or SRS just because they say they want it (which doesn't happen anyway). If they're going private, then yeah, let them do whatever they want.

[Sammy777]

EVERYTHING YOU SAID

Are you F*cking kidding me? http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/banghead.gif

[Patsy]

This is a very serious subject and not to be taken lightly. The suicide rate among post SRS women is very high. There are reasons for this.

[Jeanna]

Being in the Winnipeg transgender scene for several years now, I've heard the questioning and the chitter chatter of the legitimacy of one's transitioning by other tg folks over and over again. I don't know what provokes them to do the questioning and never asked what their beliefs were.
When they ask for my opinion on the legitimacy, I either tend to ignore the question or answer with "Doesn't matter, it does not change my support of (the person in question)'s decision".

So laying that out, what are your thoughts of a person going through SRS and other transitioning procedures for strictly cosmetic for appearance and living preferences with no (or very little) GID reasons?
Do you believe that GID should be required to proceed to the SRS?

How do you know what GID conditions lay in another one's head? One should mind their on P's and Q's

[Jeanna]

Actually, I can see how someone might get caught up in this whole game and have SRS when it wasn't really appropriate. Maybe you are stereotypical cross-dresser, you start taking hormones, your mind changes, becomes almost female, you look on SRS as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You somehow feel that everything will be wonderful. Of course, it isn't, everything is the same, except that now you're a second class woman, in a society where women are already second class. The only reason to have SRS is if your appendage disgusts you and you can't live wiv it. Otherwise I'd say it's very low on the TS agenda. More to do wiv how you appear in public. Lots of guys like a bit extra, so it ain't really a disadvantage in the dating game, especially if otherwise you come over as really female. You have to be really, really sure to have SRS. Any doubts at all, don't do it. You do it for you, not for other people. It won't make you more attractive to men, in fact it will cut off a big proportion of dating partners. OK, you want a real man, but how many real men will go wiv an ersatz woman. Short time maybe, but long time - well you have a lot of competition out there from the GGs, you'd have to be something pretty special. I wouldn't say it's impossible, there are women who have done it, but as I say they were pretty special. For the majority of us, just getting a guy is the first problem, then getting him to stay is the second problem, then getting him to stay long time is the third problem. If they're wiv U to start wiv maybe they like that little bit extra, and if you dump it maybe they'll dump you. Think very, very carefully, before you dump you're competitive advantage. When you become, or are perceived as, a woman you fall outside the male perspective as a competitor, but you fall into a whole new ball game. There are few good men out there, but there are an awful lot of females chasing them.

You are kidding,,,right?

[Princess Chantal]

Actually, I can see how someone might get caught up in this whole game and have SRS when it wasn't really appropriate.
Your opening sentence caught my attention and gave me thoughts that the post should be a good worthy read. Unfortunately, it didn't take much reading to decide to skip to the next post.
In the first few years of stepping into the local tg community, I became overwhelmed with the fulltime lifestyles to the point where I was deeply questioning my own gender and lifestyle. I was researching the hormones, SRS, FFS, my work's policies involving gender, and testing the waters of my friends and family's tolerance/acceptance, and so on. Thankfully I didn't rush down that path where it was too far to come back from.

Anyhoo,
I do know someone in the local kink community that has plans to add SRS into his body modification. There's no question in my mind that he'll go through with it as he is financially well off and has succeeded down his blue-printed body modifying plans already (surface peircings, tattoos, transdermal implants and subdermal implants). Quite interesting person to chat with and see his artistry of his body. Unless you are an associate of his, you would never know his body modifications as it isn't plain to the eye to see. He doesn't really associate with or socialize with the tg community as he doesn't have a desire to appear feminine or transition.

[Julia_in_Pa]

The Standards Of Care exist for a reason.
Without them countless trans people would have made mistakes in surgical options that they thought they were" wanting" at the time.
Even with the standards for medical protocol in place there are those due to having large financial pools in which to draw from are able to buy their way through.
Yes, I'm very pleased that a medically professional diagnosis of GID is needed for the overwhelming majority of those that transition.
If your transitioning for any other reason than to rid yourself of GID you need to ask yourself why your doing this.
Take it from me this is one road you dont want to travel down unless it's a life or death situation.


Julia

[rachael.davis]

Bing Bing Bingg Bing - Julia for the win.
I sort of freaked a few months ago when I rolled over in bed, and felt my (little) breasts move. I had a massive WTF moment, went into several months of doubt about what I was doing, and pretty much came back to "I'm doing this because I don't want to die next year, and if I don't, I might". I guess that's more of an informed decision than I had made up through then.

[LeaP]

So laying that out, what are your thoughts of a person going through SRS and other transitioning procedures for strictly cosmetic for appearance and living preferences with no (or very little) GID reasons?
Do you believe that GID should be required to proceed to the SRS?

Taking your questions exactly as posed (meaning in the realm of personal choice and excluding pathologies like psychosis), my answer is that the choices people make for cosmetic surgery are none of my business, nor anyone else's. In my view, SRS for cosmetics only is pretty extreme, but it's still no-one else's business. Anyone taking the position that it is permissable to restrict choice is also in the business of defending why some procedures are acceptable and others not. There's some pretty extreme body modification going on out there. No-one is talking about restricting those people's choices. (forked tongues, facial tattoos, implants, surgeries, etc.)

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree with you Lea. As you say, this is only a very strict interpretation of the question...

For ts and cd people, one thing i see all the time is people NOT taking responsibility for themselves. Some say about themselves, "I got diagnosed" as transsexual.. HUH??????

It is your responsibility. If you want SRS for ANY reason, you should be allowed to do it. I think the medical community has its own responsibility to inform you of the awful the mistake you are making if you are not a woman....
And they are well set up to help .. The standards of care have grown from many years of real experience...the folks that are ramping up crossdressing to the point of wondering about transition will almost certainly realize its a mistake, especially if they follow the standards of care... the resources and help is all there..

If you do it anyway, then its not about me or anyone else...its about an idiot, like that Charles Kane guy... what he did is totally and completely on HIM, not anyone else.

Also, not every transsexual suffers GID, especially youngsters... If you can express your femaleness easily and early, then you avoid the GID problem..
so i think its very possible as we go forward that really positive outcomes will become the norm as all of us old folk drift off...

[RachelOKC]

If you do it anyway, then its not about me or anyone else...its about an idiot, like that Charles Kane guy... what he did is totally and completely on HIM, not anyone else.

Exactly. His bad choices, his consequences to deal with. What infuriated me is that he used his situation as springboard to tell the world that transition is wrong for everyone. Apparently his ego is so big that he's not responsible for his own life and mistakes. Colossal jerk!

[Princess Chantal]

Is the use of the phrase "I got diagnosed as transsexual" to cool the assumed heat of those that may be questioning the legitimacy? Maybe some sort of proof that their decision is the right choice?
I do agree with your Huhhh??? reaction, Kaitlyn. I often have the same reaction when someone states similiar phrases when I didn't question their choice on transitioning in the first place.

[LeaP]

Also, not every transsexual suffers GID, especially youngsters... If you can express your femaleness easily and early, then you avoid the GID problem..


Well-taken.

Also, there's a point of view that maintains that the medical gatekeeping role is more about defending the cisgender population than it is about treating transsexuals.

Lea

[Bree-asaurus]

I agree with you Lea. As you say, this is only a very strict interpretation of the question...

For ts and cd people, one thing i see all the time is people NOT taking responsibility for themselves. Some say about themselves, "I got diagnosed" as transsexual.. HUH??????

It is your responsibility. If you want SRS for ANY reason, you should be allowed to do it. I think the medical community has its own responsibility to inform you of the awful the mistake you are making if you are not a woman....
And they are well set up to help .. The standards of care have grown from many years of real experience...the folks that are ramping up crossdressing to the point of wondering about transition will almost certainly realize its a mistake, especially if they follow the standards of care... the resources and help is all there..

If you do it anyway, then its not about me or anyone else...its about an idiot, like that Charles Kane guy... what he did is totally and completely on HIM, not anyone else.

Also, not every transsexual suffers GID, especially youngsters... If you can express your femaleness easily and early, then you avoid the GID problem..
so i think its very possible as we go forward that really positive outcomes will become the norm as all of us old folk drift off...

You know Kaitlyn, sometimes I hate when you post in a thread before me. I'll be reading the thread, collecting all the things I want to say, and then I'll get to your post (and Lea's here) and bam! You beat me to it... and usually in a much more well thought out manner.

I have nothing to add but *likes* :D

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Exactly. His bad choices, his consequences to deal with. What infuriated me is that he used his situation as springboard to tell the world that transition is wrong for everyone. Apparently his ego is so big that he's not responsible for his own life and mistakes. Colossal jerk!

Thanks for bringing that up..

He transitioned for attention, and he untransitioned for attention..hurting lots of people in the process.. he is a shameful person

[Badtranny]

You know Kaitlyn, sometimes I hate when you post in a thread before me. I'll be reading the thread, collecting all the things I want to say, and then I'll get to your post (and Lea's here) and bam! You beat me to it... and usually in a much more well thought out manner.

I have nothing to add but *likes* :D

Yes it is highly irritating. ;-)

...but I still gotta say that it is absolutely none of my business what someone wants to do with their body. I have my hands full dealing with my own transition issues and as irate as I get when someone tries to boss me around, I can't imagine telling someone else they should be more like me.

Taste the rainbow baby.

[Jennifer in CO]

two cents from someone who's been there...
I posted before about my transition back in the early 80's so I won't go into it. I never really considered myself a "non-Op" transexual...heck...I didn't even consider myself a TS of any kind. I did it because I when I grew breasts and with an already feminine appearance it was easier to present (and live) as a female than as a male with breasts (ok...so I wanted to as well but for the moment we won't go there). 2nd class citizen?...only in employment. In the 80's the "glass ceiling" was as hard as rock. There were jobs that women could (can) do but weren't open to them and if they finally got into them they were paid less just because. I guess you had to consider part of your pay as the privilege of getting to do a job normally reserved for a man. Oh..and you had to do the job twice as good just to keep it.
Outside of work?...2nd class?...you kiddin me?...how many men open doors for other men? how many men pull out chairs for men? how many men go out of their way to help other men change a tire, or anything else for that matter? Outside of the workplace, we (women) have been treated as royalty. How can that be "2nd class"? Personally, I enjoyed greatly my time as a woman. It was a wonderful experience and made my post transition life as an employing male a much more sensitive to the needs and attitudes of the women that worked for me. As a working male I brought my experience into the workplace and did what I could to remove the glass ceiling. The best "person" for the job got it.
People decide to change/alter their body (up to and including sex) for all kinds of reasons. The key to the decision is not in proving to someone else its whats best for them, but the real purpose of the Standards of Care are to make sure you prove to yourself its what you want beyond a Shadow of a doubt as its not exactly easy to reverse your decision.

Jenn

[Bree-asaurus]

Outside of work?...2nd class?...you kiddin me?...how many men open doors for other men? how many men pull out chairs for men? how many men go out of their way to help other men change a tire, or anything else for that matter? Outside of the workplace, we (women) have been treated as royalty. How can that be "2nd class"? Personally, I enjoyed greatly my time as a woman. It was a wonderful experience and made my post transition life as an employing male a much more sensitive to the needs and attitudes of the women that worked for me. As a working male I brought my experience into the workplace and did what I could to remove the glass ceiling. The best "person" for the job got it.

I dunno... Sometimes men can make you feel like a 2nd class citizen.

At Autozone with my boyfriend. I'm explaining something to a "technician" that I dealt with many times back when I was a dude (he didn't make the connection though. I was just some girl with a loud mouth to him). Even though I was the one asking the questions, he would direct all his responses to my boyfriend who hadn't said a single word. I guess it's because CLEARLY my boyfriend, who doesn't even know how disk brakes work, knows more about cars than his girlfriend that beefed up an old pickup and resto-modded a classic Camaro. Ah the knowledge inherent in every man from birth! The penis must be a second brain that us girls are missing out on...

[Shelly Preston]

There are lots of people who wish to transition

The medical proffesion do their best to ensure anyone choosing this path is making the correct decision. Yes sometimes people will make mistakes in their choices even with the best advice. I think just because someone has mad a mistake they should not be saying its wrong for everyone.

I respect people have a right to choose how they want to live but that comes with the responsibility of living with the consequences. That is why so much care is taken by doctors.

Sadly today we live in a world where most things seem to be wanted yesterday. I now the transitioning journey is a difficult one, but I would rather it was immensly difficult than find out it was wrong.

[LeaP]

I dunno... Sometimes men can make you feel like a 2nd class citizen.

At Autozone ...

Totally! It drives my wife absolutely nuts when she asks a question and the response is directed to me. I have a bad habit (from introversion) of looking or even walking away when my wife engages an SA in a store for example. She'll ask a question. I'll be looking somewhere else - maybe even have my back to the SA - and the answer will be directed at me! She added me to her business checking account. They put MY name first on the correspondence! She's primary on the cell phone account. They wouldn't make a change without MY permission! There's tons of these, big and small. The car thing is particularly funny (well, not really). She's completely into cars and she's a really, really skilled driver. I don't know anything about cars and have absolutely no interest in them. She drives a sports car, manual. I drive an old pickup. We go to a dealer and guess who gets the tech talk and sales pitch?

On topic, this goes to judgements about transition, too. People want you to fit their stereotype before they will give you their approval. As if you needed it.

Lea

[elizabethamy]

"I got diagnosed as a transsexual" is a way of telling the world that your situation is truly medical, not imaginary. It might strictly speaking be a falsehood, but it's an understandable one. I was just spectacularly relieved when I first read the news that DES Sons have a high incidence of GID. Aha, I thought, it's medical, I can't help it, I'm not crazy.

A few months later, it really doesn't matter to me that I'm a DES Son and that biologically that might be the "why" of my GID. The issue now is what to do about GID. But it sure is easier to frame a description of one's struggle in medical terms, because it just kind of makes everyone think of you as less weird.
So it's okay, in my view, to say that "you have been diagnosed," even if you know that you've really diagnosed yourself.

[Aprilrain]

The penis must be a second brain that us girls are missing out on...

I thought it was their only brain :battingeyelashes:


Exactly. His bad choices, his consequences to deal with. What infuriated me is that he used his situation as springboard to tell the world that transition is wrong for everyone. Apparently his ego is so big that he's not responsible for his own life and mistakes. Colossal jerk!

typical male!


Actually, I can see how someone might get caught up in this whole game and have SRS when it wasn't really appropriate. Maybe you are stereotypical cross-dresser, you start taking hormones, your mind changes, becomes almost female, you look on SRS as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You somehow feel that everything will be wonderful. Of course, it isn't, everything is the same, except that now you're a second class woman, in a society where women are already second class. The only reason to have SRS is if your appendage disgusts you and you can't live wiv it. Otherwise I'd say it's very low on the TS agenda. More to do wiv how you appear in public. Lots of guys like a bit extra, so it ain't really a disadvantage in the dating game, especially if otherwise you come over as really female. You have to be really, really sure to have SRS. Any doubts at all, don't do it. You do it for you, not for other people. It won't make you more attractive to men, in fact it will cut off a big proportion of dating partners. OK, you want a real man, but how many real men will go wiv an ersatz woman. Short time maybe, but long time - well you have a lot of competition out there from the GGs, you'd have to be something pretty special. I wouldn't say it's impossible, there are women who have done it, but as I say they were pretty special. For the majority of us, just getting a guy is the first problem, then getting him to stay is the second problem, then getting him to stay long time is the third problem. If they're wiv U to start wiv maybe they like that little bit extra, and if you dump it maybe they'll dump you. Think very, very carefully, before you dump you're competitive advantage. When you become, or are perceived as, a woman you fall outside the male perspective as a competitor, but you fall into a whole new ball game. There are few good men out there, but there are an awful lot of females chasing them.

I didn't realize "Dr." Phil was a CDer and was posting on this site! how lucky we should all feel to have such experienced words of "wisdom"

I really can't see some CDer "getting caught up in the whole game". I'm not saying its not possible but highly unlikely. Its a long, arduous, painful and $$$$$$EXPENSIVE "game" to get caught up in and no reputable SRS DR is going to preform that surgery without the proper letters, if for no other reason than to protect his/her own ass. the rest of your post reads like a TG fantasy fiction novel and isn't even worth addressing.

[jillleanne]

Who's paying? If the taxpayer is picking up the tab like here in Ontario, then yes definitely an asssessment needs to be done to ensure the person is suffering from GID seriously enough to harm themselves because of it. Otherwise what they do is their business and we have no right to tell them otherwise.

[Vickie_CDTV]

It is funny folks mention Autozone, because I remember years ago I had the opposite experience with a girlfriend at the time (seems the few women I have been involved with were all knowledgeable about cars and could fix them.) She went in and asked for a headlight, the guy ignored me (I never talked to him) and got her the headlight. They go out to the parking lot to make sure it was the right one. She asks the guy for a screwdriver or whatever and proceeds to dismantle whatever was in the way and replace it. When she was all done she looked at the guy from the store and says, "Boyfriends... they don't know anything about cars". I hate to say it but it made even me laugh at the time, one of my fond memories of her.

So, the guys at Autozone are not all jerks :heehee:

[Sammy777]

Actually, I can see how someone might get caught up in this whole game and have SRS.
Otherwise I'd say it's [SRS] very low on the TS agenda.

Lots of guys like a bit extra, so it ain't really a disadvantage in the dating game,
If they're wiv U to start wiv maybe they like that little bit extra, and if you dump it maybe they'll dump you.
It [SRS] won't make you more attractive to men, in fact it will cut off a big proportion of dating partners. OK, you want a real man, but how many real men will go wiv an ersatz woman.

This is a very serious subject and not to be taken lightly.
The suicide rate among post SRS women is very high. There are reasons for this.

Yes this is a very serious subject, not some "game" to us.
And obviously one you know nothing about.

VERY LOW on the agenda? Really?
Apparently to you dating ranks much, much higher on the list then wanting SRS to TS'.

<sarcastic rant> Oh yes, Don't bother with that pesky SRS, just stay some porn industry driven fantasy BECAUSE that will get you plenty of men as opposed to trying to compete with real women for them. Because face it without your willie men aren't going to want someone LIKE YOU when they can get REAL girls! </sarcastic rant>

I would just LOVE to know what you consider "hi" [besides yourself] and where you are getting your information from. The suicide rate for pre-ops is very high but drops drastically post-op. Probably to no more or less then the average is for women.

It is very clear you do not have a clue and the only PATSY here is you because no one is buying into your warped fantasy driven bullshit.

[Rachel Flowers]

If they're going private, then yeah, let them do whatever they want.

It's a standard requirement Kerstin in all professions that you never just "give the patient/client/student/etc what they want". I don;t just put whatever the client tells me on their tax return, I have a legal, moral and professional duty to save them from themselves by only doing what can be legally justified.A doctor has similar allbeit less clearly defined obligations to decline elective treatment where it isn't appropriate.

[LeaP]

It's a standard requirement Kerstin in all professions that you never just "give the patient/client/student/etc what they want". I don;t just put whatever the client tells me on their tax return, I have a legal, moral and professional duty to save them from themselves by only doing what can be legally justified.A doctor has similar allbeit less clearly defined obligations to decline elective treatment where it isn't appropriate.

There it is - the medicalization of choice in a nutshell. Our reality, their decision. I won't speak to the accounting point, as I don't think it's comparable anyway. Medicine has a process to deal with this. It's informed consent. With an informed patient, views of what's "appropriate" from the doctor's perspective need not apply.

Lea

[Miranda-E]

Well-taken.

Also, there's a point of view that maintains that the medical gatekeeping role is more about defending the cisgender population than it is about treating transsexuals.

Lea

probably the best comment in the thread.

[msginaadoll]

I think it is possible for some people to get caught up in the fog of cding and start thinking that maybe they should go further. People get swept up at times whether it is in overusing credit cards, drugs, etc. I have seen some cds who start thinking that maybe hormones will make them present easier, maybe a little shot of silicone here and there..... People do not always use good judgement, heck a lot of people have terrible judgement, look at all the murder, robbery etc out there. Sure maybe it is your right to change or modify your body anyway you want. What I want to feel what its like to be legless, cut my leg off doc. I think that at times someone does need to step in and make sure that people dont make stupid or wrong decisions. Some may disagree. But at least then make sure that the individual cant sue the doctor, etc when they start facing regrets.

[LeaP]

I think it is possible for some people to get caught up in the fog of cding and start thinking that maybe they should go further. People get swept up at times whether it is in overusing credit cards, drugs, etc. I have seen some cds who start thinking that maybe hormones will make them present easier, maybe a little shot of silicone here and there..... People do not always use good judgement, heck a lot of people have terrible judgement, look at all the murder, robbery etc out there. Sure maybe it is your right to change or modify your body anyway you want. What I want to feel what its like to be legless, cut my leg off doc. I think that at times someone does need to step in and make sure that people dont make stupid or wrong decisions. Some may disagree. But at least then make sure that the individual cant sue the doctor, etc when they start facing regrets.

Can we inject some reality here? The rate of post-operative SRS regret is the lowest in medicine, to my knowledge. Lower than NON-elective surgery. Regardless of whether the SOC are followed or not. The SOCs don't have to be followed. If someone is determined, they can get hormones cross-border and surgery in Asia. Crossdressers rarely pursue hormones and almost never pursue surgery. Those that do pursue hormones are usually chasing herbals that don't do anything for the vast majority anyway. Just who are you protecting - theoretical people who *might* do something? And at whose expense? Answer: those who actually need to pursue it. The logic is backwards.

Are you seriously suggesting treating transsexuals in the same fashion as people with amputation obsessions? That's incredibly offensive. The rare patient with body identity disorder presents up front asking for amputation.

Lea

[Sophie_C]

These are why the SOC exist. Charles Kane is a perfect example of that. For the protection of all true trans people, you must ensure that people with significant mental issues or things clouding their judgement aren't allowed to transition, de-transition and de-legitimatize their right to be who they are. I'm all for people being thorough and tough, otherwise you'll get a situation where people end up badmouthing, falsely representing the community (less than 0.01% of women who fully transition, transition back) sueing, and then the requirements for transitioning end up being completely over-the-top, ruining it for everyone.

[NathalieX66]

I don't argue with anyone that needs to transtition. I have faith in WPATH standards of care. http://wpath.org/publications_standards.cfm

It's interesting to personally know quite a few who are transitioning. I am not quite like them. They have their needs, I have mine. I speak ill of nobody. I support whoever is going down that path.

[Barbara Ella]

I am very new to cross dressing, and the subject of transitioning is very far away from me even having on my mind right now. That said, i cannot disagree with someone wanting to transition. If they want to do this, they can provide it. If they are using public health, then they must meet criteria set up to make sure they are of sound enough mind to fully understand and carry it through properly. Standards exist for very good reasons to protect society.

Our feelings exist for very good reasons, and i believe they should typically be honored.

Babes

[LeaP]

These are why the SOC exist. Charles Kane is a perfect example of that. For the protection of all true trans people, you must ensure that people with significant mental issues or things clouding their judgement aren't allowed to transition, de-transition and de-legitimatize their right to be who they are. I'm all for people being thorough and tough, otherwise you'll get a situation where people end up badmouthing, falsely representing the community (less than 0.01% of women who fully transition, transition back) sueing, and then the requirements for transitioning end up being completely over-the-top, ruining it for everyone.

Those "significant medical issues" to-date have included such things as having the correct sexual orientation and presenting the approved set of dysphoria symptoms. The "true" transsexual had to have the right story and the right presentation. Historically, they had to give up their families and pledge to never contact them, transition socially without hormones, undergo years and years of duplicative therapy, and agree never to reveal their transsexual history. Currently, transsexuals endure a stigmatizing mental illness diagnosis and for what? To prove that what they are is valid to someone else's standard? Identity - transsexuality - is not a mental illness. Should people have to prove they really have a female identity to marry? Should they have to have therapy or a "real life experience" trying to get pregnant before undergoing a tubal ligation to make sure they have no regrets? Maybe men should have to prove they're really men before going into the military ... after all, we shouldn't be sending women into combat, should we?

I'm NOT advocating stupidity, blind decisions, or anything similar. I simply think informed consent is MORE than adequate for the purpose. Charles Kane is a straw man, a statistical anomaly who would have done whatever it took to transition as he had the money to do so anyway. And he USED the medical establishment. That physician did not follow the SOCs, but the SOCs, contrary to popular belief, are not scripture. They are guidelines that therapists and physicians adapt as needed to patient circumstances.

Lea

[Julogden]

I feel that it's no one else's business as to why someone wants to transition. I feel that any procedure should be an option for anyone that wants it, for whatever reason, assuming the person is of sound mind and their reason isn't for nefarious purposes. Of course, if we're talking elective surgery, then they'll have to pay for it themself. And if one regrets it after the fact, it's too bad. If you make the decision as a rational adult, be prepared to live with the results.

Insurance should cover those who are transitioning due to GID or if one is intersexed, IMO, all others, no.

Carol

[Miranda-E]

its hilarious that the idea that people transition on a whim is so common when so many here cant even sack up and buy shoes face to face, tell their partner, or just live in fear of being seen in a dress in their own home town.

[NathalieX66]

its hilarious that the idea that people transition on a whim is so common when so many here cant even sack up and buy shoes face to face, tell their partner, or just live in fear of being seen in a dress in their own home town.

Being transsexual is not a whim, the feelings never go away. For some, there is a brain wiring issue.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Like most of us, I have a strong libertarian streak. I think most of us would believe that alternative lifestyles should not only be tolerated and protected, but that they enrich the society they grace.

Still, there are many limits to our lives that many of us believe are useful, ranging from motorcycle helmet laws to suicide. This apparently paternalistic approach also works the other way. There are, for example, certain consumer rights and warranties that you cannot waive. A common theme running through these limits is the inability of the individual to have perspective. The motorcyclist thinks he never will have an accident, the suicide survivor wonders what they could have been thinking.

Is informed consent enough? I don't know. Perhaps the majority seeking transition know themselves well enough for it to be sufficient. But this community has many very tortured and fragile souls who could perhaps benefit from the perspective of others. Sure, medical gateways are difficult limits on personal freedom, but somehow, we need to balance the costs and benefits of this. What proportion of "mistakes" would be tolerable?

In our legal system, we have chosen a very extreme solution. Two mistakes are possible: convicting an innocent person, and letting a guilty person go free. Our rule of "beyond a shadow of a doubt" says we are willing to make the second mistake if it prevents the first. Transition may be similar. Perhaps limits that make it harder for some to transition might be worthwhile if there is a danger that mere informed consent allows some mistakes.

Liz

[Aprilrain]

Transition takes a long time is emotionally and physically painful and cost thousands of dollars the likelihood of some pink fog enveloped CDiing dreamer having the endurance to see transition through is minnimal at best. The likelihood of a cisgendered non-CDing person going through with transition is so vanishingly small as to be basically non existent. Charles Kane is probably the only example of the later ever! That being said why not follow the standards of care? What's the big deal? These days you can start hormones almost imidiatly (not that they help that much as far as passing goes) there is no requirement for a therapist letter to get FFS, and most docs will do BA with informed concsent. Is it really that big of a deal to wait a year to have SRS? For Most people it takes years to save up for it anyway! There really aren't any gatekeepers anymore, I realized this very early in my transition and accepted the responsibility for my actions. The only person who is going to suffer if I make a "mistake" is me. As far as transition regrets go of the stories I have read the major theme seems to be a lack of acceptance from family and friends and a lower quality of life due to loss of carreer. Also I think older transitioners are at greater risk of feeling as if they missed out on too much of their lives as a female. While these problems are very real and need to be taken in to consideration they do not spell mistake to me, GID often becomes a do or die situation the TS feels they MUST transition to live even if that life is much harder than the old one. Recently I read about a person who transitioned while taking heavy doses of anti anxiety meds ie Valium or the like. It's probably unwise to pursue transition while on mind altering substances, it seems to me to be irresponsible of a health care professional to recommend someone such as this for surgery. This is an issue of comorbidity however the person who transitioned and now regrets their decision admitted to "doctor shopping" so who's to blame?

[Sophie_C]

Those "significant medical issues" to-date have included such things as having the correct sexual orientation and presenting the approved set of dysphoria symptoms. The "true" transsexual had to have the right story and the right presentation. Historically, they had to give up their families and pledge to never contact them, transition socially without hormones, undergo years and years of duplicative therapy, and agree never to reveal their transsexual history. Currently, transsexuals endure a stigmatizing mental illness diagnosis and for what? To prove that what they are is valid to someone else's standard? Identity - transsexuality - is not a mental illness. Should people have to prove they really have a female identity to marry? Should they have to have therapy or a "real life experience" trying to get pregnant before undergoing a tubal ligation to make sure they have no regrets? Maybe men should have to prove they're really men before going into the military ... after all, we shouldn't be sending women into combat, should we?

I'm NOT advocating stupidity, blind decisions, or anything similar. I simply think informed consent is MORE than adequate for the purpose. Charles Kane is a straw man, a statistical anomaly who would have done whatever it took to transition as he had the money to do so anyway. And he USED the medical establishment. That physician did not follow the SOCs, but the SOCs, contrary to popular belief, are not scripture. They are guidelines that therapists and physicians adapt as needed to patient circumstances.

Lea

Hmm, I don't believe what you indicated that "traditionally" had to be done is listed anywhere in the SOC. And, I do agree on the idea of them as guidelines, which exist for better or for worse.

One thing you aren't taking into account, though, is how lucky we are that Charles Kane is from England. If he had been from the US and caused a serious lawsuit, the requirements for transitioning would be 100x as bad as they are now, since doctors are forced to err on the side of safety, radically so, when insurance is involved. And, insurance is permanently involved whenever there's a lawsuit.

This is why I say it's important for them to exist. It's not that I want things to remain "tough". I don't want them to get even worse after some anomaly like Charles Kane with a crazed mind an a fat checkbook puts up a huge lawsuit, forcing doctors to have ridiculous requirements (say, like a 5-10 year RLE??).

Better a little tough for some non-flexible doctors now, than completely terrible for everyone later on.

[LeaP]

Hmm, I don't believe what you indicated that "traditionally" had to be done is listed anywhere in the SOC. And, I do agree on the idea of them as guidelines, which exist for better or for worse.

One thing you aren't taking into account, though, is how lucky we are that Charles Kane is from England. If he had been from the US and caused a serious lawsuit, the requirements for transitioning would be 100x as bad as they are now, since doctors are forced to err on the side of safety, radically so, when insurance is involved. And, insurance is permanently involved whenever there's a lawsuit.

This is why I say it's important for them to exist. It's not that I want things to remain "tough". I don't want them to get even worse after some anomaly like Charles Kane with a crazed mind an a fat checkbook puts up a huge lawsuit, forcing doctors to have ridiculous requirements (say, like a 5-10 year RLE??).

Better a little tough for some non-flexible doctors now, than completely terrible for everyone later on.

The SOCs have been refined over time, of course. They are not universally used, though referencing them has become the norm. The description I gave is the context behind the earlier comment on defending the cisgender population. And much of what I described was still being applied by physicians as recently as the 90s.

A lot of this relates to the cis focus on "The Magic Sex Change" - the complete horror of SRS and their invariable fascination with it. An extreme to be guarded against at all possible costs! A tragedy beyond description! Yet most transsexuals will tell you that it's one of the lesser points of transition - an important last step for some, not even a thought for some others. Transition happens before the surgery. We're told in our society to keep our hands (politically and medically) off women's bodies, but not transsexual women's bodies. Reproductive rights are an individual choice, hence a woman may elect a tubal or hysterectomy, but SRS must be guarded because of the possibility of "mistake," with hand-wringing over the poor post-op's inability to father children. Life altering personal choice is permitted in a million areas of life - except for transsexuals. The angst is all about the binary. All or nothing, and - MY GOD! - the concern is always about MtFs because, after all, the worst thing on Earth is that man become a woman. THAT mistake has to be guarded against above all others!

The legal argument is over-wrought. Doctors, hospitals & clinics, medical device manufacturers, drug companies, et al - are sued all the time in this country already. It's one of THE most heavily litigated professions. There's an argument over whether it changes medicine and to what degree (e.g., more unnecessary testing) - or whether modern medicine simply seeks more diagnostic certainty anyway because it can. A Charles Kane case in the US would be another blip from a process and cost perspective.

Lea

[Aprilrain]

The SOCs have been refined over time, of course. They are not universally used, though referencing them has become the norm. The description I gave is the context behind the earlier comment on defending the cisgender population. And much of what I described was still being applied by physicians as recently as the 90s.

A lot of this relates to the cis focus on "The Magic Sex Change" - the complete horror of SRS and their invariable fascination with it. An extreme to be guarded against at all possible costs! A tragedy beyond description! Yet most transsexuals will tell you that it's one of the lesser points of transition - an important last step for some, not even a thought for some others. Transition happens before the surgery. We're told in our society to keep our hands (politically and medically) off women's bodies, but not transsexual women's bodies. Reproductive rights are an individual choice, hence a woman may elect a tubal or hysterectomy, but SRS must be guarded because of the possibility of "mistake," with hand-wringing over the poor post-op's inability to father children. Life altering personal choice is permitted in a million areas of life - except for transsexuals. The angst is all about the binary. All or nothing, and - MY GOD! - the concern is always about MtFs because, after all, the worst thing on Earth is that man become a woman. THAT mistake has to be guarded against above all others!

The legal argument is over-wrought. Doctors, hospitals & clinics, medical device manufacturers, drug companies, et al - are sued all the time in this country already. It's one of THE most heavily litigated professions. There's an argument over whether it changes medicine and to what degree (e.g., more unnecessary testing) - or whether modern medicine simply seeks more diagnostic certainty anyway because it can. A Charles Kane case in the US would be another blip from a process and cost perspective.

Lea

Lea, yeah ok sure and another yeah but still what is your point?
It's really easy to get the requisite 2 letters now a days. And again what's the big deal with waiting a year? It will take at least 2 years to get rid of ones facial hair! And be realistic no one goes from living as a man to living as a woman over night. Woman's lives are way more sophisticated than men's it takes time to learn all that stuff that woman learned as girls. And I have to believe the many post ops who say that transition does not end with SRS, though I disagree with those who say it starts with it as if everything I have done up to that point was unnecessary.

[LeaP]

Lea, yeah ok sure and another yeah but still what is your point?


Glad you asked. It's not the medical treatment per se (so much, or anymore) - it's the differential treatment, which is a key part of the cultural apparatus that institutionalizes how trans people are viewed. This is a political and social point.

Lea

[Elizabeth Ann]

Lea, yeah ok sure and another yeah but still what is your point?



Glad you asked. It's not the medical treatment per se (so much, or anymore) - it's the differential treatment, which is a key part of the cultural apparatus that institutionalizes how trans people are viewed. This is a political and social point.

Lea
I am a little confused about this. Transitioning is treated differently than other changes by an individual. How is it not a unique and significant change? Even from my sympathetic CDing vantage point, it seems to be a very big deal.

Perhaps you do not like the way in which treatment of trans people is institutionalized, but surely you are not against the institutionalization itself? Would you rather approaches to their treatment be ad hoc and subject to the subjective whim of the public? Institutionalizing a process does convey some rigidity, which can also be used as protection from "the tyranny of the majority."

Liz

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The whole narrative about TS regret is a bunch of BS...
Anyone that is actually involved in transition knows this.

On further thought, to me this is an interesting theoretical question, but its posed from the cisgender view...

If cisgender people (including cd's) are stupid enough to transition, that is their problem.. If your cogiati test puts you at probably transsexual, and you think "hmmm maybe i should transition.."...then that is your problem....

I know what i went through...i know what my first 45 years was like

...i will be damned if i will let people that think protecting somebody in a pink fog from "going all the way" is more important than me having a chance to survive

.....i will be damned to let the poster idiot for ts regret Charles Kane hurt my chance to transition.

[Aprilrain]

Glad you asked. It's not the medical treatment per se (so much, or anymore) - it's the differential treatment, which is a key part of the cultural apparatus that institutionalizes how trans people are viewed. This is a political and social point.

Lea

that is why it is important to me to get beyond being trans. we will always be circus sideshow freaks there are just too few of us to ever really make a difference and if a a TS person has a chance of living a quite life in their true gender undetected by the vast majority of people good luck getting them to shout their trans history from the roof tops.

[Elizabeth Ann]

The whole narrative about TS regret is a bunch of BS...
Anyone that is actually involved in transition knows this.

On further thought, to me this is an interesting theoretical question, but its posed from the cisgender view...

If cisgender people (including cd's) are stupid enough to transition, that is their problem.. If your cogiati test puts you at probably transsexual, and you think "hmmm maybe i should transition.."...then that is your problem....

I know what i went through...i know what my first 45 years was like

...i will be damned if i will let people that think protecting somebody in a pink fog from "going all the way" is more important than me having a chance to survive

.....i will be damned to let the poster idiot for ts regret Charles Kane hurt my chance to transition.

Kaitlyn,
I don't believe any of us want to stand in your way, and I am sorry if our language has provoked you to say some harsh things that I am sure you don't really mean.

Full disclosure on my position: my 21 year old son has recently announced that he thinks he is transexual. I have told her that I will support her in whatever she does, but seeing some apparent confusion, have urged her to proceed slowly.

It may be that few, if any, ever complete transition and then regret it or consider it a mistake. But this forum is littered with stories to individuals who started and never finished. I don't know why they abandon their plans, and whether they regret starting, or not finishing, or whether they are happy where they are. Would they have started if they had known they would not finish? Do their desires change, or do they lack the will and resources to proceed? I wish I knew.

Like you, the question has become very personal for me. There are many possible paths to life, and we cannot possibly know the end to each, or even the one we are on. Your own evident passion illustrates what a monumental choice this fork involves. Your path may be clear to you, but is it too much to try to help those who are confused or have doubts about which path to take?

Liz

[Alexis L]

It should be noone else's business as to why someone would want to transition. In America especially, you have freedoms but also responsibilities, as in if you make a mistake you must take responsibility for it. That is also part of being a responsible person as well.

What about if someone's crossdressing has to do with feeling like they have acquired a female body? What about if one's crossdressing creates significant gender dysphoria with their birth gender? What about if they don't feel like they can function as a male in a relationship as well as sex? What about if living as a male is depressing? What about if the feelings of self acceptance is much higher as a woman? What about if they just feel closer to the female gender? Or even, what about if they love being a woman so much that it means that they want to acquire a female body?

One person cannot every truly understand another person, and if they think they can they are being arrogant and insensitive. There is no way one can truly get into the head of another person. So if people can't, then why should they judge them?

People that are judgemental and assholes many times don't judge and be an asshole because they are concerned about that person, they judge because they feel threatened by that other person, either in terms of prejudism or that they threaten their belief system. In other words, either these people have an idea of how the world should be and get angry at people that don't conform to that worldview (say for instance, the cisgendered idea that men should not be looking like women or being one, because that is degrading to the male gender), they have a prejudist belief of that person (they believe for instance that even transsexuals are still men with the mind of a man, and for women that's also judging men in that all males are testosterone driven perverts or potential creeps) or they just feel plain uncomfortable and blame the other person for why they are uncomfortable rather than taking a rational, closer look of their own feelings.

In terms of loved ones, they get in the way because they either feel threatened about losing the person that they knew, or they may genuinely be concerned but may be prejudgemental and think that that person is just being crazy or foolish. Either way, its their own problem and not the other person's. Why should someone have to be responsible for the prejudism or inflexibility of others? If we had to be responsible for the ignorance or pain that others suffered because of their own flaws in not adapting, then what freedom would there be in this world? NONE!

I don't mind if society makes sure that someone understands all the potential risks in doing something, but they should not discourage or try to get in the way of someone doing something like transitioning. It's especially hard for passive people or people pleasers (or people who depend on the approval of others innately) to do something if society gets in the way, even if they feel strongly about doing it, and not doing it for them will only cause long term suffering and/or an impaired / unhappy life.



BTW, I know that especially FTM transsexuals and boyish presenting Genderqueer females, quite a bit of them DID NOT have GID for much of their life, maybe because the female gender is more free in expression?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Elizabeth thanks...i wasn't really commenting on this specific thread which has a whole bunch of interesting thoughts...no worries...

i was just more speaking to the whole idea of how there is a bias against transsexuals that bleeds into everything...especially the idea that its important to protect fools instead of helping transsexuals...

It is just flat out smart to take your time if you are doing this stuff, ....luckily its a really long slog, and the reason many people drop out is because of it... which is also to reiterate my point, non ts people just don't go through all that crap, and the whole idea that TS regret is an "issue" is baloney...

[kimdl93]

I guess I'd be surprised that anyone would undergo SRS or any other major invasive procedures simply for cosmetic reasons. I would think one would have to be very highly and genuinely motivated to take the risks, endure the discomfort and financial burdens, not to mention the social stigmas, associated with transitioning.