Does "respect" mean "vegence"???

[sandra-leigh]

I hesitate to import the following discussion into here, but the issue implicitly raised would seem to be an important one over the longer term. The topic was out of place for the (open) Remembrance discussion group it showed up in.

The person I have marked as "x" is not a member here as best I know. My intent is not to discuss her particular words, but rather to raise awareness of opinions on "proper" reaction to acts of violence against TG/TS.

Please, Try to avoid flaming discussion participants. (I have a bad feeling about this...)


When Will All The Hate Crime's Stop Against Our Sister's & Brother's...No One Will Ever Stab This MTF TS...Because I'll Never Give Anyone The Chance Too...That's Why I Carry A Buck Knife On My Belt Everyday...And Once I Move To A State Where I Can Wear A Gun On My Hip...The Haters Better Run...!!!...Because This TS Cowgirl Is Fast On The Draw...!!!. We As MTF & FTM Transgender People Need To Tell The Right Wing Media Like Fox News...They Need To Learn To Be More Respectful About The LGBT Community As A Whole...And Stop Spuin' Hate Fill Remarks Towards Our Transgender Community...Yes We Must Remember Those We Lost To Violence...But Honor Them By Being An Advocate By Stopping The Violence By Putting The Hater's In The Gray Bar Hotel...And If That Don't Work...It's Gonna Have To Be A War On Those Who Use Violence On Us...As In..."An Eye For An Eye"...!!!...Don't Run From The Hater's Stand Your Ground...& Beat Them Senseless...!!!.


I do not agree at all with "An eye for an eye" or with beating anyone senseless. However, I do not feel this is an appropriate place to discuss this matter further.


Sandra That's Where We Differ...I Was Brought Up In The Old West Way Of Life..And I Believe In The Code Of The West..."Respect The Land, Defend The Defenseless, & Don'tcha Ever Spit In Front Of Women Or Children...!!!"...Y'all Can't Be Scared In Today's World...You Have To Stand & Fight Just To Survive From Day To Day.....I'm Tellin' Y'all That Law Enforcement In This Country...Don't Wanta Protect & Serve Us In The Transgender Community...Most Of Them Rather Treat Us Like Shit...Just As The Right Wing Religious & Political Idiot's Do Every Damn Day...As They Do On That Idiotic Fox News...!!!.


I do not feel that this is an appropriate place to discuss that. This group is about vigils for our dead, not about plans of action for our everyday life.


Y'all Can Do Vigils All You Want...But It Won't Bring Those Who Lost Their Lives To Violence Back.....That's Like All Those People Who Place Candle And Stuff At Different Places To Show Their Respect...I'm Sorry But That Is Ridiculous.....You Wanta Honor The Memory Of Somebody...Be A Warrior And Avenge Them...By Goin' On The Hunt For Their Killer......And Make Sure Their Killer Dances At The End Of A Rope...It's Called Frontier Justice...!!!...But I See Now That This Group Is Run By Scared Little Coward's...Only The Weak Hearted Hold Vigils...!!!.

[Stephenie S]

It sounds like a typical case of testosterone poisoning to me.

S

[JulieK1980]

Lacking the "other" side of the story, I can't forge an honest opinion. Reading it, and seeing all the grammatical missteps gives me pause, and makes me think you are trying to minimize their view. Since this isn't an actual quotation, it seems very one sided. Ultimately though, I see nothing wrong with the attempt to defend oneself aggressively. I don't condone violence directed at anybody without due cause, but I don't know enough about "X" to know if they are condoning violence or if they are simply stating a need to aggressively defend themselves from others that wish them ill will.

[jillleanne]

Respect and vengeance will never cross paths. Hatred and ignorance will and does as evidenced by your posted quotes. Unfortunately hatred and fear of the unknown are entrenched into some people by some social structures. These lead to irrational violent behavior sometimes in the form of vengeance. Respect is earned by using intelligent peaceful behavior, not forced by violent actions caused by fear, hatred, or prejudicism.

[sandra-leigh]

Reading it, and seeing all the grammatical missteps gives me pause, and makes me think you are trying to minimize their view. Since this isn't an actual quotation, it seems very one sided.

Those are actual quotations. The only thing changed is the user names (e.g., that system renders the dash in my name as a space.) That was the extent of the conversation from the time "x" picked it up. I was "subscribed" to the thread, so that system emailed me copies of everything, which I cut and pasted here as-as except for wrapping QUOTE tags around.

The thread had started with a link to the recent DC murder (http://homicidewatch.org/2012/02/03/7619/), with three brief responses from people expressing disappointment with Fox News having written "a man dressed as a woman".


but I don't know enough about "X" to know if they are condoning violence or if they are simply stating a need to aggressively defend themselves from others that wish them ill will.

The earlier parts can perhaps be interpreted as being only about direct self-defense, but in the last part, "Be A Warrior And Avenge Them" "By Goin' On The Hunt For Their Killer" would appear to be encouraging the community to take direct violent action against those believed to have been violent towards the community.

There is a natural question about to what extent "x" believes what she wrote, versus to what extent she was "posturing" or perhaps even trolling. I do not know "x" myself, so I do not have any basis for assessing that.


It sounds like a typical case of testosterone poisoning to me.

I am mindful in this connection, of the responses to the thread in December about the beating the TS woman delivered to the person who said "You're a man!" to her in the subway station corridor. There was quite a bit of support stated for that action and for the extent of the beating even though the fellow was not making any attempt to fight back. I do not know if testosterone poisoning is sufficient to explain that.


Respect is earned by using intelligent peaceful behavior, not forced by violent actions caused by fear, hatred, or prejudicism.

Personally, I agree with you. It seems to me, though, based upon past discussions, that the members here are perhaps divided on this matter.

[Sammy777]

If I take your word that is how Person X feels then it sounds like Person X is almost willing to form an anti-lynch mob lynch mob to dispense a little street justice.

That is just wrong and makes one no better then the people they are exacting revenge from.

While I do not condone violence it does not mean I will just lay down and take a beating.
If I was directly attacked for who I am by someone I would do my best to insure I was the last person standing.

[LeaP]

If I understand, you are asking whether pursuing vengeance is the way to get respect? I.e., by ensuring that those who perpetrate violence against TG people know they will get something in return?

If so, the the answer is absolutely not. Whatever anyone thinks of the method from a theoretical standpoint, it cannot work in this case because the perpetrators aren't a cohesive group and lack common motives, and the TG population lacks the means to make it happen predictably and reliably.

I don't think much of the approach, either. It's criminal. God save us from the Trans Liberation Front.

I second Sammy's comments.

Lea

[FurPus63]

Seems to me that violence begets more violence. I've always been a person to stand for peace. However; I understand that we do need to fight for our rights in this country. There's way too many people, mostly men, who want to destroy us. They really believe the BS they're shuveling out. But we need to show we are above them.

Of course I might not say that if it were done to me or someone I cared about.

Paulette.

[Jessinthesprings]

In my opinon I think Poster X is just as much a threat to the LGBT community as any "Right-Wing" individual. You have to respect other people's opinions no matter how they differ from yours. Its their right. It is only when their actions infringe on your rights that there's a problem. It's also foolhearty to lump all conservitives as haters and all liberals as lovers. There are good and bad from both sides. Oddly I think I've seen and felt more love from the "evil" christians than any other group outside the trans community.

[Melody Moore]

Respect can never be commanded, demanded or ordered no matter what.
Respect is a grace, and it's given when someone chooses to give it out. If
you think you can get my respect by bullying me, then you really are a fool.

[LeannL]

My only thought is that Martin Luther King Jr progressed the civil rights movement much further with non-violent action than he would have had he chosen the other path.

Leann

[DAVIDA]

It sounds like somebody is half cocked but fully loaded.
When you go looking for trouble, you usually find it!

[Julia_in_Pa]

Sandra,

One of the main reasons why I have my CCW permit is to protect myself from a situation getting out of hand.
Attempt to physically harm me or one of my party and one of us is going to jail and it would probably end up being myselfif due to shooting someone.
It isn't a game It isn't a threat. It's a reality that if I was assaulted the other party would be dead because of it.
I respect our dead but I sure as hell will not be one of them.


Julia

[Melody Moore]

Seriously Julia, do we need to start flexing our muscles & talking about guns, knives, martial arts etc?

If you have these defence systems, good for you, but we don't need to keep talking about them all the
time. Sometimes I believe that we should take a more passive approach to dealing with those who feel
like they have something to prove. And personally I can kick just about anyone's arse, but I would rather
try to resolve an issue using diplomacy before using any type of lethal force. Violence begets more Violence.

I believe that if we play our cards right, we can turn many situations that could become very dangerous
& violent into valuable opportunities where we can educate others about people like us & trans awareness.
I have also earned the respect of others by just walking away from those that don't wish to play this game.

This was something that happened to me just a few weeks ago at the Reef Hotel Casino here in Cairns.
When it was apparently obvious to that certain people couldn't get with the program, my girlfriend & I just
simply got up and left the table and went inside to the bar. After a short conversation with security staff
these transphobic arse clowns were escorted off the premises without the need for any guns or violence.

You would be amazed at the amount of people that kept coming up to me after that praising me for how I
cool, calm & collected I was in handling that situation, and how they had failed in their vain to ruin my night.
Had I picked up a bar stool & smashed their heads in, I am sure I would have had a terrible night in the local
lock up (jail). I would have then had to deal with all the other drunken vermin & filth in the town. No thanks!

Guns are not necessary at all, especially where I live. If someone attempts to harm me, my training instantly
kicks in where I have always successfully acted extremely quickly & concisely to subdue any physical threat.
Never once in my life have I ended up behind bars on an assault charge and this is despite the fact I nearly
killed a guy once in self defence. Using your head is the most valuable asset to any system of self defence.

Violence begets Violence, and this unrepentant fool in Tennessee might one day finally realise this...
http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/archives/2012/01/25/ignoring-critics-floyd-repeats-threat-against-transgender-people

Like all minority groups we need to stand up in solidarity & be counted to really earn our respect at a much
higher level if we want to see serious changes across the board where we are no longer bullied in society.

[Miranda-E]

Using your head is the most valuable asset to any system of self defense is true.
no need for revenge posturing just remember rule 21-23.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you."
Too many people forget the polite and professional parts.

"Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one."

"Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

[Starling]

I don't have a gun, nor could I beat anyone up. If would-be assailants had reason to think twice, however, some benefits might trickle down to me. I believe in the right to self-defense. Organized non-violence in group settings, a la Gandhi and MLK, is feasible and powerful, but a person isolated and attacked cannot simply go limp and expect to survive.

Personal vengeance, on the other hand, a primary subject of Greek drama, tears the fabric of society.

:) Lallie

[KellyJameson]

(Does "respect" mean "vegence"??? ) Vegence as in revenge?

Usually adult violence is not a pure expression of good against evil, right against wrong, the moral against the immoral but actors playing out a drama that carries their history with it.

The words clearly carry rage and I have found this rage often has it's roots from the injustices of childhood, sexual abuse, incest, abandonment, emotional/mental cruelties, physical violence against the child to relieve adult stress/frustrations or acts against the child that were done to the adult as a child and than rationalized but are nothing more than acts of revenge and methods to make the insane acts done against the adult as a child sane. See Alice Miller, Trauma of the Gifted Child

This "vegence" is the expression of this rage.

All human beings are born with an innate sense of fairness built on comparison.. You see this constantly when around children, they are quick to complain if they feel that they were cheated ( if someone received more than they did whether it is more candy or more love)

Childhood feels like forever when it is all about injustice ,whether it is their bodies being used as punching bags or for sex or their minds seared with the violence of screaming accusations,criticisms,judgements or the more insidious but equally harmful act of brainwashing by teaching lies that are labelled as truths.

X has been violated and his mind is now an expression of these violations. The anger is a statement that never again will someone do to him what has beeen done to him in the past, prisons are filled with people like this. They act out their pasts in the present, being carried by forces they do not understand and cannot resist. Violence creates paranoia and suppresses the vital cognitive growth for critical thinking skills to develope that would allow for understanding of the violation opening up the door to allow the escape from it, violence becomes a trap.

Respect for others is born from respect for oneself, it honors all life and acts in self interest but not selfishly (sacrifices others). This is a learned behavior not by teaching rules but by having ones life honored (valued) in childhood while being shown by example how to honor others. It is not exploitive, manipulative,deceitful but operates with transparency because it exists without fear.

[sandra-leigh]

Interesting viewpoints, and I thank everyone for keeping it civil even where there is disagreement.

With respect to the thread title 'Does "respect" mean "vengence"???' -- I had to pick some title and I didn't quite know what to address first. The title I choose is ambiguous and not intended to confine the discussion; it refers most directly to the concept that the way we should pay respect to our victims is to avenge them.

[Julia_in_Pa]

@ Melody,

Australia is not America.
Gun culture is a very big part of the U.S.
You can disagree with why I carry not just gun but guns but you cannot deny my right in the US to do so.
Every one of my thirty guns are loaded and are in various parts of my house in varying "hidden" locations.
I've been taught firearm defense by my friend who is a U.S. Marshall along with her friends who are also Marshall's.
I'm very good at what I do.


Julia

[sandra-leigh]

When I was quite young, I got the usual "jumped by a bunch of boys" from time to time. I don't remember much about it. In those days, early mid to late 1960's, boys fought, "rough and tumble"; less so than the 1950's, but still a part of the culture. There didn't have to be a good reason. They were bored with tossing the ball and someone wandered by was good enough cause. I struggled back, they pinned me down, and then they'd got off and do something else. In those days, the boys granted respect for me trying and getting in the occasional good counter-measure; there would have been more respect if I had been stronger or more wily; there wasn't any respect granted on the days I just ran away faster than they could be bothered to chase. I needed their respect to some extent, needed some company, so I didn't always try to run more than enough to make it clear that I wasn't just giving in. Certainly they seldom had much respect for me casually being one of the top students. Fighting back from being ganged up on was an immature kind of respect -- but it was what they knew and could understand.

I only recall one time in my life that I initiated anything violent. I was in about grade 5, and there was one kid who just wouldn't leave me alone. My instincts told me that I would have to stand my ground and push back, so one evening I waited for him, approached him, and told him... I don't remember what, exactly, not insulting, more like "Looks like we'll have to fight it out." So we did. And he was a year older than me, and heavier than me, and experienced where I wasn't, so I lost the fight, but not without putting up a resistance. He won but he didn't "break me". And, strangely, my resisting him was what he needed to get over pestering me, and we spent time together after that. He hadn't respected my giving in to his bullying, but he respected my standing up for myself.

As an adult, there have been a small number of times when I was quite upset and would perhaps have joined battle if the other person had initiated it, but I am not proud of those times; I am more pleased about the times I walked away with a "Yeh, whatever, this is pointless". The only time I have been physically attacked as an adult was the time I was in the wrong place late at just the wrong time and was casually and impersonally mugged (not a hate crime; I was just the person who was there.)

My childhood experiences mix with my adult philosophies to leave me wondering to what extent "shows of strength" and physical resistance do have a place in establishing respect ?

[JulieK1980]

Those are actual quotations. The only thing changed is the user names (e.g., that system renders the dash in my name as a space.) That was the extent of the conversation from the time "x" picked it up. I was "subscribed" to the thread, so that system emailed me copies of everything, which I cut and pasted here as-as except for wrapping QUOTE tags around.

The thread had started with a link to the recent DC murder (http://homicidewatch.org/2012/02/03/7619/), with three brief responses from people expressing disappointment with Fox News having written "a man dressed as a woman".



The earlier parts can perhaps be interpreted as being only about direct self-defense, but in the last part, "Be A Warrior And Avenge Them" "By Goin' On The Hunt For Their Killer" would appear to be encouraging the community to take direct violent action against those believed to have been violent towards the community.

There is a natural question about to what extent "x" believes what she wrote, versus to what extent she was "posturing" or perhaps even trolling. I do not know "x" myself, so I do not have any basis for assessing that.



With these clarifications, I'd say it sounds a lot like posturing to me. Just merely venting over their own anguish. Of course without knowing "X" it's still difficult to say.

[KellyJameson]

"should pay respect to our victims is to avenge them" Ahhhh, I was way off in Plutoland as usual.

Yes I believe victims should be avenged but by the state that is constructed to represent the people to lessen the passions of the mob and reduce the blood lust from developing in the individual(s) and thus turning them into the same animal that provoked the original outrage. I say animal because non-violence and respect for life are enlightened states where the violence you refer to is born from the baser instincts, it is primal, primitive,ect...

This of course does not include self defense, which I believe should be vigorous but weighed against survival, not only as a responsibility to self but by extension the protection of other innocents ( next victim )