Gender Binary?

[lizbendalin]

In the last year or so, in my work with the LGBT organization at our local university, more and more people are complaining and fighting against the idea that you are either male or female (the gender binary). More and more of them are defining themselves as gender queer and presenting in a blend of masculine and feminine. Some of the transfolk do wish to change their gender, but it seems like a majority want to blend the gender attributes.

I'm just curious as to what your views are: Is gender binary? Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)? Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?

[JessHaust]

I don't believe that Gender is a binary thing at all. I fit somewhere along a 3-axis plot of masculine-feminine, heterosexual-homosexual and presentation. Confusing yes, but plot it out on paper and it makes sense.

[kimdl93]

I am inclined to believe, based on the evidence, that gender is a fairly fluid thing. Even the physical differences between male and female can, to some degree mix in development, and the mental dimension appears far more maleable. It may be that as our society grows more accepting, that more people are willing to acknowlege what has been there all along. Or maybe all those estrogen like chemicals in the water and food supply are changing us. Either way, I'm all for it ;)

[Kate Simmons]

I dunno Hon. If you throw everything into a waring blender, you get kind of a "heinz 57" product, which is what many of us are anyway.;):)

[Julia_in_Pa]

Hi,


I'm neither a cross dresser nor am I technically TS but intersexed.
I possess both genders biologically.
You could say I am the ultimate expression of gender combination.

How I feel about that however is not what you would think.
I'm a woman, always have been.
I transitioned over five years ago to a gender binary.

People can do what the want and present as what they feel they are I just don't participate in it nor do I care to.

For the gender variant the term transgender fits the bill just fine.

For most TS and IS people it's the gender binary that is the goal. Once achieved why would one return?


Julia

[Sara Jessica]

Gender is fluid, many of us in these pages prove that it isn't all about whether one is 100% female or 100% male. Or maybe it's better said that expression is fluid, how one presents their gender to the outside world.

However, the concept of gender binary is as much sociological as anything else. Girls wear pink, boys wear blue. Girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks...and so on. This societal construction is something that makes the lives of TG individuals so difficult, because we deviate from that binary.

Personally, I'm not looking to blend the genders so much. I was simply drafted to the wrong team at birth.

[lizbendalin]

So if gender is more of a spectrum, is our tendency to express ourselves in a binary way a result of societal pressure and expectations? And, why is it that within much of the transgender community those that truly blend their gender presentations are often ridiculed and ostracized by those within the community itself (for giving us a bad name/ for being "freaks") I know I might be generalizing but I've heard it fairly often.

[Julia_in_Pa]

For the majority of my friends and I there is little to no interaction with anyone who is gender fluid.
I work, I go home, I eat then alot of the time it's off to bed.

For recreation I enjoy shooting at the range and just living life.
For my camp everyone has mostly just moved on to live their lives caring less about anything to do with the transgender community overall.
It's less about not liking those that are gender variant and more just having moved on.
I enjoy being on this forum as a way to communicate with others that are also TS/IS since I never really associate with anyone of my kind in the real world.


Julia

[Michaella]

I absolutely agree with JessHaust. I enjoy gender-bending, presenting with traditionally femme things like earrings, long hair, skirts, nail polish and so forth, while not trying to pass as a woman. When I do try to pass, or at least blend in, while presenting as a woman, it is as a means of being feminine and not creating a problem, since people expect woman can be feminine. I get a bit uncomfortable with the deception part of that. On a few occasions I've been able to dress in a very feminine way while not trying to pass as a woman and that has been very satisfying.

So no, not binary at all, a continuum on all three axes.

Michaella

[STACY B]

Well here is the deal ,, im a lady when its time to go shoes shoping or clothes shoping or get our nails done or hair done ,, But I have to be a man when its time to fix something or buy something or argue with someone or maybe even pick up something real heavy or pee outside or holler real loud to scare someone , Then back to a lady when its time to shave my body or paint my nails ,Or back to a man when its time to shave my face ,Then back to a ladt when I do my hair , Or back to a lady when when I have to WOOP some azz to defend my SO honor , Then back to a lady when I have to cook ,,,Or wait did I cook in MAN or woman ,, OH well I dune forgot what H::"L Waittttt A min ,,,,, Alrite what was the question again ohhhhhh never mind I gotta go .........

[suchacutie]

My perspective is that the biological gender and the mental gender need to be addressed separately. With some notable exceptions, most of us have a clear single biological gender, but even if we have the attributes of both biological genders those attributes are physically present and clear.

Mental gender is another matter, and it is there that we run the spectrum, not only in who we feel we are as to presentation, but who we feel we are as being attracted to some part of the gender presentation of others. It is here that we can be fluid if we choose, or isolationists if we choose.

However, even though my plural gender identity is most comfortable when the gender characteristics are as separated as possible (which could be described as two different applications running off the same database!), the very fact that I present in two separate genders with one body requires some compromises about presenstation. One can't only have pierced ears in one gender presentation. It's not easy to have arched eyebrows only some of the time. Likewise taking care of one's skin to maximize one's feminine presentation can't be undone (nor should it be) in one's masculine presentation. The list could continue for very long!

Thus, the state of one's mental gender and one's gender presentation could be one extreme or the other, but those extremes seem to be coming more unusual. Wouldn't it be odd if, after all, the extremes of mental gender simply disappear. Just imagine if everyone realized they were to some degree transgendered! The social ramifications of that are astounding!

tina

[Julogden]

There are many who want to force a strict religion-based binary gender/sexual identity system on everyone with no wiggle room, but I feel that if there were no religious or cultural constraints, we'd see a continuum of gender expression/sexual identity and many would be fluid.

Carol

[*Vanessa*]

imho - gender is fluid and has its base function only on the mind. Although possibly unhappy, a quadriplegic male (for sake of argument) could easily fit somewhere along the generic spectrum. The argument as presented 'only' allows for a response associated with a visual presentation, so therefore, only is relevant from an audience perspective. I don't need to belong to be me, but long to belong.

[AussiegirlCD]

Gender to me is more of a quantum state, it has multiple dimensions all going simultaneously. I'm sure the famous late physicist Richard Feynmann would have agreed.
It's a fairly well known part of quantum theory, that a subatomic particle can exhibit multiple spin states simultaneously, and be either, both or neither all at once.

Professor Pheobe'z PHD (Pretty Hot Dame)

[Barbara Ella]

Most things are generally a continuum unless there has been a specific purpose designed into the system. The sex, or physical gender, was developed for a specific purpose, procreation, therefore is binary. I think even the intersex recognize this and as Julia said, would rather be one or the other, and fortunately, can make that decision, and hopefully live a happy fruitful life.

The mental gender is the continuum as it has no specific purpose that cannot be served by being binary. Most people are programmed, or make the decision to match their mental and physical genders. Others, for whatever reason, cannot make that decision and have it stick. There really is no reason for it to stick as most conventions for gender expression are imposed outwardly by societal pressures. Societal pressures have never had a true relationship with the psychological needs of the individuals, and this is where the blending begins as it is normal to mentally question all aspects tht are outwardly imposed.

So it is normal to have a blended gender, and some will blend it more than others. I like to think that the individuals who do it more have a more active mental capability than the people who can only imagine one mental gender.

Babes

[Bree-asaurus]

I believe gender is probably more fluid than fixed. But I think most people do fit within the gender binary. In my personal experience, the people who once identified as between genders eventually realized they were actually the opposite gender.

I'm sure there are people who identify as somewhere between male and female, but I think a lot of people are in the process of self discovery and don't quite know who they are yet. A lot of people who are actually transexual go through this process of figuring out who they are and they may apply several different labels to themselves over time. We see it every day on this forum. A crossdresser who realizes they aren't just a crossdresser. A transgender who realizes that they may, in fact, be transexual.

Hopefully, in the future, society won't be so freaked out by people who do not fit the norm and allow individuals who can't be pigeonholed the ability to find out who they are without having to break through all the repression.

But I'm not talking about masculinity and femininity here. Those are traits that either gender can have. We see more and more today that men aren't all the macho men and women aren't all the submissive, stay at home moms.

[sissystephanie]

In a purely technical sense, you are either male or female! That depends on which sex organs you were born with! As an example, I was born with male sex organs so therefore I am a male. But I am also a crossdresser!! I love to wear womans clothing, even out in public! Does that make me a female? Not in the slightest!! I have NO desire to be a woman, in any sense of the word. I just like to dress like one. That is me, a male, being ME!!

[Bree-asaurus]

In a purely technical sense, you are either male or female! That depends on which sex organs you were born with! As an example, I was born with male sex organs so therefore I am a male. But I am also a crossdresser!! I love to wear womans clothing, even out in public! Does that make me a female? Not in the slightest!! I have NO desire to be a woman, in any sense of the word. I just like to dress like one. That is me, a male, being ME!!

We're not talking about sex, we are talking about gender. If you don't know the difference, I suggest you do some research. Your views are quite antiquated. But of course, you're welcome to your opinion ;)

[Julia_in_Pa]

Stephanie,

I was born with functioning male genitalia and partial fallopian tube development and ovaries.
What does that make me?

I'm sure as H3ll not a man.


Julia



In a purely technical sense, you are either male or female! That depends on which sex organs you were born with! As an example, I was born with male sex organs so therefore I am a male. But I am also a crossdresser!! I love to wear womans clothing, even out in public! Does that make me a female? Not in the slightest!! I have NO desire to be a woman, in any sense of the word. I just like to dress like one. That is me, a male, being ME!!

[LeaP]

In a purely technical sense, you are either male or female! That depends on which sex organs you were born with!

Sorry, that's just not true. Different TECHNICAL aspects of physical gender also include secondary sex characteristics, chromosomes, hormones, and brain sex. That still leaves out gender identity from a psychological point of view.

A male may be born without a penis (penile agenesis). Doesn't make him any less male. Androgen insensitive women have male chromosomes but have female genitalia.

To the topic, the binary is a valid construct because it fits a super-majority of the population. TG/TS/IS are exceptions and, as Bree, Julia and others have pointed out, it describes even a lot of those. I also like Bree's care in separating out expression from identity. I.e., identity may be stated to be even more binary than expression, which is largely cultural anyway.

Lea

[Bree-asaurus]

Sorry, that's just not true. Different TECHNICAL aspects of physical gender also include secondary sex characteristics, chromosomes, hormones, and brain sex. That still leaves out gender identity from a psychological point of view.

A male may be born without a penis (penile agenesis). Doesn't make him any less male. Androgen insensitive women have male chromosomes but have female genitalia

Lea

Some people seem to forget that humans invented the terms 'gender,' 'sex,' 'male' and 'female' and applied them to what they understood at the time. We understand far more now and so we change our language and definitions to fit the new evidence.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Expression, gender, genitals...i like thinking of it that way...it makes sense

The problem we all face is trying to explain that to the 999+/1000 people that literally have no ability to comprehend how any of us can actually exist...
they dont care, and they mostly have NO REASON to care..this is the gender binary world...we all live in it..
like it or not, and we are all marginalized by it...

It's like the old wilson pickett song..
When a male genitaled, fluid gender expessing, female gendered man loves a woman.......not very catchy..

[Bree-asaurus]

It's like the old wilson pickett song..
When a male genitaled, fluid gender expessing, female gendered man loves a woman.......not very catchy..

I thought it was quite touching... :heehee:

[Badtranny]

I think about this a lot and I wonder if my societal indoctrination is the reason I must transition. For some reason it's real important to me that people see a woman when they look at me, but that is such a long and difficult process that life would be better if I could just be happy as something in between. Clearly I was born a man but I have so many outwardly feminine characteristics that maybe I was just never meant for the binary in the first place.

Young people today are blessed with so many more options and maybe someday we will learn that a sex change is a bit of an over correction to a child that wasn't mis-gendered, but simply mis-socialized.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think about this a lot and I wonder if my societal indoctrination is the reason I must transition. For some reason it's real important to me that people see a woman when they look at me, but that is such a long and difficult process that life would be better if I could just be happy as something in between. Clearly I was born a man but I have so many outwardly feminine characteristics that maybe I was just never meant for the binary in the first place.

Young people today are blessed with so many more options and maybe someday we will learn that a sex change is a bit of an over correction to a child that wasn't mis-gendered, but simply mis-socialized.

This is very interesting...but for me I had NO outward feminine characteristics..but like you, it is just as important what people see..

Identity flows both ways. It matters to others what gender they are communicating with...having my gender reflected back at me is no less important than expressing it to me..

It is possible that at birth there are two genders, and then socialization begins to do its work immediately..or its possible that we are all fluid at birth.. we can never know...

my own experience in the ts world, is that it hints towards 2 genders, otherwise the drive to live as your true gender would not cause us to do the crazy things we do just to survive.. it seems if i was even 5% male, i could squeak by as male...no matter how much socialization i got as male, i couldn't function over time...

for people that are male and crossdress it makes perfect sense that there is a strong view towards gender fluidity....
the idea that some men gain comfort in thinking of themselves as women (sometimes) is not that different than gaining comfort from wearing womens clothes at home, or trying to go out as women hoping to get maam'd....

[*Vanessa*]

...Young people today are blessed with so many more options and maybe someday we will learn that a sex change is a bit of an over correction to a child that wasn't mis-gendered, but simply mis-socialized.

A great thought Melissa! As time move forward we are less likely to revert to the polar bios that so many older generations relied on to feel right about themselves. To forget about the child's learned behaviors and try convince them to be one or the other pushes far to many to end their young lives.

[VioletJourney]

It's pretty binary. As crossdressers, do you look entirely different from genetic women? Or do you strive to look just like one? That would be binary, my friends.

[Gillian Gigs]

The problem is that we think that whatever is found between our legs determines your sex. The biggest sex organ that we have is found between our ears. Most of mankind operates on the K.I.S.S. principle when it comes to sex. Keep it simple stupid, will be around for a long time, or until people get educated on the subject, and there are good tests to determine what an individuals brain actually is.

[STACY B]

[QUOTE=Kaitlyn Michele;2762347]Expression, gender, genitals...i like thinking of it that way...it makes sense

The problem we all face is trying to explain that to the 999+/1000 people that literally have no ability to comprehend how any of us can actually exist...
they dont care, and they mostly have NO REASON to care..this is the gender binary world...we all live in it..
like it or not, and we are all marginalized by it...

It's like the old wilson pickett song..
When a male genitaled, fluid gender expessing, female gendered man loves a woman.......not very catchy..[/QUOT How could they ? Most of the population cant even do simple math or count , Once you REALY know what your dealing with it becomes fairly simple.

[*Vanessa*]

.
1. Female
2. Intersexed
3. Male

How does that equal two (2)

[Ayame]

I'm someone that is genderfluid/androgynous/genderqueer. I really don't have a desire to live life as a woman or a man, I like both roles and often blend them together. On a scale of 1-10 with 1 being feminine and 10 being masculine I sort of go from a 3-7 depending on the day. As for pronouns I don't have a preference either, if someone calls me she or he or something like ze I don't care usually.

There are lots of genderqueer/androgynous people on my campus, however, I'm one of the few that was born male, I've noticed that most not all genderqueer/genderfluid/androgynous people, at least where I live around are biologically female and call themselves gender queer and the small amount of people biologically male prefer the term androgynous. Not sure if its like that in most area's but that's how it is in mine.

[lizbendalin]

I've been away from the computer most of the day. First with my therapist, and then representing the T on a LGBT panel speaking to a university class of future teachers on diversity in the classroom.

I realize that I may need to clarify things just a bit. Almost all crossdressers, and transsexuals fully embrace the binary gender world. We either were born within one and move to the other, or from time to time present ourselves as well as we can as the other side of the gender spectrum. Most people would speak of crossdressers as being gender fluid, able to present as either end of the gender spectrum. I'm wanting to get some feedback on those in the middle area.

What about a person with breasts and a fully-functioning penis? What about a person born female, who binds and presents as male but still goes by a female name? What about a person who declares them self male, yet wears heels and makeup, but nothing else that would classify as feminine as part of their normal attire? Those are the people who I'm running into more and more within the younger transgender community. How do we "old folks" (and I use that term with my tongue firmly in my cheek) feel about those who throw out the binary expression of gender, and create their own middle ground?

[Bree-asaurus]

I've been away from the computer most of the day. First with my therapist, and then representing the T on a LGBT panel speaking to a university class of future teachers on diversity in the classroom.

I realize that I may need to clarify things just a bit. Almost all crossdressers, and transsexuals fully embrace the binary gender world. We either were born within one and move to the other, or from time to time present ourselves as well as we can as the other side of the gender spectrum. Most people would speak of crossdressers as being gender fluid, able to present as either end of the gender spectrum. I'm wanting to get some feedback on those in the middle area.

What about a person with breasts and a fully-functioning penis? What about a person born female, who binds and presents as male but still goes by a female name? What about a person who declares them self male, yet wears heels and makeup, but nothing else that would classify as feminine as part of their normal attire? Those are the people who I'm running into more and more within the younger transgender community. How do we "old folks" (and I use that term with my tongue firmly in my cheek) feel about those who throw out the binary expression of gender, and create their own middle ground?

I disagree with people saying that crossdressers have fluid gender because they can present as male or female. Pretending to be a gender does not make you that gender. Your gender is internal and fixed. You can't be male one day and female the next. A male crossdresser can be male and present as male, or male and present as female.

People who are between genders means they identify as some ratio of male and female, not the fact that they can "switch back and forth."

[Matia]

I disagree with people saying that crossdressers have fluid gender because they can present as male or female. Pretending to be a gender does not make you that gender. Your gender is internal and fixed. You can't be male one day and female the next. A male crossdresser can be male and present as male, or male and present as female.

People who are between genders means they identify as some ratio of male and female, not the fact that they can "switch back and forth."

what if they feel that they fit both genders ? i feel as a woman if i am dressed up and i want to act and be perceived as one, the limitation is my male body, but i do not feel this way
all the time, it comes and it goes and i am happy with feeling both as a man and as a woman, we are talking about gender , not sex. gender is much more dynamic than sex (as a physical thing is)

pretending is the only way how to become that gender without drastic physical changes, and pretending is a bit offending too

[Sophie_C]

There's a spectrum, but this needs explaining.

There are many systems which encompass our criss-cross of gender and sexuality. If you don't know already, gender identity is "inside the head", meaning the skin you live in, and the way you are most comfortable inside it - While sexuality is a bunch of systems about what sort of "rocks your world" from roses to leather fetishes, and cross-dressing is another sort of fetish.

Gender identity is based in something that is beginning to be called body mapping. Body mapping is a system, built-in, for the mind, setting it so that we can use our body, placing us in a way that makes us most comfortable *and* which is why people feel false limbs when they loose an arm or a leg in Afghanistan, for example. This system is most often towards the far end of matching the body itself, which is WHY people think there's a binary. Also, there are social gender roles which reinforce this common confusion by the outside world.

The truth is that there are plenty of people who have it wired in the middle or towards the far other side of what their body is physically. And, this is possible, since it's all in the mind and how it's wired.

Add to this the fact that there is, as part of sexuality, fetishistic cross-dressing, something that gives people pleasure. And, we all know serious pleasure is very comfortable.

And, then you get a whole lot more confusion from the outside world.

And, then on top of that, since they're different systems, people can have different degrees of both (like a fetishistic crossdresser having a little nontypical gender identity or a transgender person having a tiny amount of fetishistic crossdressing when they're young) , creating confusion within themselves. But, people eventually figure it out, if they face it.

Anyway, the fact that people can be intersex proves your LGBT friends right.

As for me, pulling off something like Andrej Pejic edging more on the femme would be quite handy versus making a dramatic full-on transition, so the thought has crossed my mind.

[Bree-asaurus]

what if they feel that they fit both genders ? i feel as a woman if i am dressed up and i want to act and be perceived as one, the limitation is my male body, but i do not feel this way
all the time, it comes and it goes and i am happy with feeling both as a man and as a woman, we are talking about gender , not sex. gender is much more dynamic than sex (as a physical thing is)

pretending is the only way how to become that gender without drastic physical changes, and pretending is a bit offending too

If you feel you are both, then that might be what you are. How you present doesn't change who you are internally. You are simply expressing one side of you at one time, and another side of you at another time.

So for example's sake, if you feel you are 50/50 man and woman... if you present as a man, that doesn't make the internal you a man, you are still 50/50. But when you are in guy-mode, you are probably more comfortable expressing your masculine side. In girl-mode, your feminine side.

EDIT: But I'm no rocket scientist... or err... gender scientist. This is of course how I see things. That doesn't mean I believe it as fact though... just what I believe with the evidence I've been presented, the experiences I've had and the experiences others have shared.

[lizbendalin]

"Pretending to be a gender does not make you that gender. Your gender is internal and fixed. You can't be male one day and female the next."

So, does that mean that individuals who are transsexual, who go through hormones and surgery, remain the gender of their birth, regardless of what they have gone through or identify as? I know a lot of people who would have a problem with that. Are you saying that a persons gender is determined at birth by genetics?

My understanding is that sex may be constant and fixed (though it can be made to appear different), but gender is not, it changes over time, based on our experiences and cultural context.

[Bree-asaurus]

So, does that mean that individuals who are transsexual, who go through hormones and surgery, remain the gender of their birth, regardless of what they have gone through or identify as? I know a lot of people who would have a problem with that. Are you saying that a persons gender is determined at birth by genetics?

My understanding is that sex may be constant and fixed (though it can be made to appear different), but gender is not, it changes over time, based on our experiences and cultural context.

My gender at birth is female. My sex at birth is male. I didn't become female inside, I always was. I just hid from it and pretended to be a man until I couldn't pretend anymore.

Surgeries and hormones don't change your gender. They are ways to modify your body to fit your gender.

EDIT: In case you didn't know... I am transexual.

[Miriam-J]

Coming to this conversation at the end of the work day is almost overwhelming. There are so many great insights, and I agree with most. The differences amongst our opinions seem to focus on vocabulary issues primarily, though I thought Liz did a nice job of clarifying lhe original intent at the end of her busy day. We can speak to genetic, physical, hormonal, mental, and even spiritual facets and come to different answers each time, depending on which facets are most important to each of us. When it comes down to it, these differences are less important than the transformation we're seeing in our young people. They are openly and manifestly coming down on the side of acceptance of all of these differences, including the continuous spectrum captured by some facets. When I was in college 30 years ago, it was difficult even for those who were openly homosexual to find a place, let alone conceive of a spectrum of possibilities. Now we're faced with the rainbow of possibilities. It gives me so much hope for this generation, that they are making life so morh easier for those of us who would have been condemned by our own generation.

Miriam

[Aloha Jayne]

Last summer, I googled the term bi-gender. I had never heard it used in any discussions or books I have read regarding transexuality, and crossdressing. Even the therapist I was seeing at the time had not heard of it, and she was herself transexual. I thought I invented the term and it seemed to fit who I felt like. Come to find out, it's a relatively new term, but you can find it on wiki. And this discussion is a hot topic within the GLBT, and particularly T groups. I even found and spent some time on other forums dedicated to bi-genders....males and females that identify with both genders.

I have begun to question if there even is such a thing as binary genders. This is just a theory, but perhaps everyone has a sliding scale, female on one end, male on the other. And if given total permission, and complete honesty, everyone would admit that the slide is neither all the way to the left or right. 90% of people would be mostly to the left or right, and the rest of us somewhere in between. I think it is also possible to move along that sliding scale depending on our activities, moods, and how we dress. Some days I'm more to the left, some to the right, some right in the middle.

I am speaking about mental gender identity only and not physical or sexual. It is social pressures that have confined us into binary genders, and this fluidity will become more widely accepted in just a few more years. GLEE introduced a transgender character just last week. Fashions can’t be far behind.

[Josie M]

Saw this post this morning checking my rss feeds but don't really have the chance to jump in until evening.

This is something that's been on my mind a bit lately. What I'd like to do is, as much as practical, "shrink the gap" between Josie and everyone else I need to be at different times or circumstances. Ultimately, the goal is to just be authentically myself all the time.

That being said though, I don't think I'd be comfortable expressing myself as somewhere between genders. I guess I like the "gender binary" and, at times, I'd just rather be Josie.

[taís]

oooo very interesting thread, there are lots of great ideas here.

I believe that may be helpful to break down the gender concept, and in this case work with three aspects:
• gender identity: internal, not binary, and possibly fluid.
• gender presentation: external, not binary and possibly fluid.
• gender role/social gender: external, binary and fixed.

in an ideal situation, one would present itself reacting to its gender identity needs/desires, and would be embraced as a citizen whichever may be its appearance and attitudes, even if they defy the usual categorization (which, by definition, will always be late and need constant revision).

I think what the OP notes is within the third aspect: breaching and expanding the social construction of gender. leaving behind the binary categories assigned by society is getting more and more frequent, given that individuals today have more freedom than ever to choose how to present themselves. not that this is the case for everyone; reasons and limitations apply. what we may note it's how much it seems to be emerging over the last years, and not surprisingly. here I'll quote the abstract for Z. Bauman's Postmodernity and its discontents, where he deals not only with this new character of society but also the backlash that the excessive freedom brings:




When Freud wrote his classic Civilization and its Discontents, he was concerned with repression. Modern civilization depends upon the constraint of impulse, the limiting of self expression.Today, in the time of modernity, Bauman argues, Freud's analysis no longer holds good, if it ever did. The regulation of desire turns from an irritating necessity into an assault against individual freedom. In the postmodern era, the liberty of the individual is the overriding value, the criterion in terms of which all social rules and regulations are assessed. Postmodernity is governed by the 'will to happiness': the result, however, is a sacrificing of security. The most prominent anxieties in our society today, Bauman shows, derive from the removal of security. The world is experienced as overwhelmingly uncertain, uncontrollable and frightening. The very pursuit of individual happiness corrupts and undermines those systems of authority needed for a stable life.


lastly, to answer the question, I'm one who thinks that the it's beautiful to see the boundaries falling. I have deep admiration for those who feel free to present in whatever way they feel like, and I can only wait for the moment when society will be drowning in categories and finally find out that the only thing to be done is forgetting all of them -- well, ok, leave them to the historians.

(If I were younger, I would love to adopt a visual kei style, like Miyavi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyavi) <3)

[ReineD]

There's a range of attributes among each gender that, if we kept in mind strictly stereotypical attributes, we could say that both men and women exhibit male and female traits. For example, if a person believes that logic and reasoning is a male attribute, then they will say that a female who possesses these qualities has male traits and is therefore gender fluid, or she is somewhere along the scale between male and female.

I don't believe in such a strict definition of gender, but I suppose those who do are the ones who say that gender outside of the transgender community is fluid (meaning that some women have stereotypical male traits, and vice versa). I believe that all humans have the capacity to experience all emotions and thinking patterns, to varying degrees based on cultural influence and personality traits, yet most of these people decidedly identify strictly in either the male or the female camp. We have female athletes for example who would never be caught dead in a dress or makeup, who might have squarish builds and who love competition and physical activity, and who are happily married mothers. We also have males who dislike sports, prefer intellectual pursuits or collecting antiques (for example), they may be the cooks in their marriages, they may have a smaller stature than the average male, and who are happily married fathers. Both these examples show just how wide a range there is in personality and physique that does not conform to the stereotype, yet still describes a type of female or a type of male whose gender identity is congruent with their birth sex. These people are not gender fluid in my opinion. They do identify as females or males.

Now. Where gender is fluid I believe is in the transgender community where many people do identify to some degree with the gender opposite than birth sex. TGs also run the gamut in terms of physical and personality traits, just like in the non TG community, but the difference is one of gender identification which is rather fluid for people who do wish to present (and sometimes behave) in the gender opposite than birth sex ... unless they are doing this for sexual or non-sexual fetish and they identify strictly and unvaryingly according to their birth sex.

[Debglam]

A good question asked!

At first, I thought my comfort with both genders would place me somewhere in the realm of genderqueer but as I experience more and more of being trans, I find that this isn't the case. I find that there are times when I am comfortably male gendered and times when I am comfortably female gendered. I think this defines "middle path" or bi-gendered as Jayne describes below:


Last summer, I googled the term bi-gender. I had never heard it used in any discussions or books I have read regarding transexuality, and crossdressing. Even the therapist I was seeing at the time had not heard of it, and she was herself transexual. I thought I invented the term and it seemed to fit who I felt like. Come to find out, it's a relatively new term, but you can find it on wiki. And this discussion is a hot topic within the GLBT, and particularly T groups. I even found and spent some time on other forums dedicated to bi-genders....males and females that identify with both genders.[QUOTE]

Me too. I have questioned, however, whether this is due to a lifetime of indoctrination. Melissa suggested this in her post [QUOTE=Badtranny;2762351]I think about this a lot and I wonder if my societal indoctrination is the reason I must transition. Is this comfort in my genetic sex internally driven or a result of "societal indoctrination" of which I got more than my fair share! :sad: Who knows? I'm just trying to be as happy as I can be with the cards I was dealt. For now, bi-gendered it is.


Some people seem to forget that humans invented the terms 'gender,' 'sex,' 'male' and 'female' and applied them to what they understood at the time. We understand far more now and so we change our language and definitions to fit the new evidence.

Now this is really true and is part of the reason why this stuff is so hard to understand. At times, when I am really content with myself, I think that we trans people are on the cutting edge of humanity. Imagine what this can all look like 100 years from now! Maybe the physical transformation will be easy or maybe not even necessary.


Young people today are blessed with so many more options and maybe someday we will learn that a sex change is a bit of an over correction to a child that wasn't mis-gendered, but simply mis-socialized.

Hopefully we will see this in our lifetimes!

[ChristiesGurl]

Gender Queer here. Look like a girl, enjoy looking like a girl, act and think very much like a boy. I'm a gg.

[Asche]

I guess it was about time for another "Gender" thread.

Mostly I just don't care about these distinctions. The only meaningful distinction in this area is the distinction between how I want to live and what I think I can get away with (and what my internalized Voice Of Society will let me be comfortable with, though I've been telling it to shut up a lot lately.) Whether I'm "really" 57% female and 68.23% male is about as interesting to me as whether my soul is really cabbage-y or really tomato plant-y (with trellis? without? that's important to know!)

I do realize that the question of "what gender am I" is very important to a lot of people, just as who wins the Stupor Boll is. This thread is evidence for that. And I'm mostly inclined to live and let live, and, when the subject comes up, to go off to raid the appetizer tray again.

But our world is full of people who refuse to live and let live. Everbody has to fit neatly into one of a very small number of boxes (usually two), and anybody who doesn't gets squashed. It's bad enough for grown-ups -- you hear of people getting murdered for not fitting into a box, though not too many where I live. But most kids get relentlessly pounded into their assigned box, with brainwashing and "enhanced interrogation techniques," if necessary (sometimes even if not.) Or bullied and driven crazy (http://feministing.com/2012/02/22/media-fail-in-coverage-of-study-on-gender-conformity-and-abuse/) when they still don't fit.

So I'm less worried about whether people want to call themselves male, female, genderqueer, tree-froggy, or whatever. I'm more worried about people who want to insist that other people are necessarily male, female, etc. Because that's where the compulsion to force reality to fit some preconcieved schema starts. And "force" is really a euphemism for violence.

[jillleanne]

I believe the binary thing is a fabricated continuation of days gone by. As far back as records take us, many things have changed and it should be no different for this issue. We brutally sacrificed human life for the 'Gods", we ate our own, we tarred and feathered, we dunk you in boiling oil; if you lived you were guilty and were hung, if you died, you were innocent, we burned at the cross for heiracy, we painted beautiful extra large women and saw beauty, the list goes on. Man created the binary system to satisfy man. It was 'a label created' for structure in society. If it comes out with a hat rack, it's boy, and this is what we expect of boys! For years we have read about other animals in the natural order that for whatever reason, do not conform to the identification created by man. Time will correct this and the blending has already begun. Natural occurence will repeat itself and we have learned to some degree not to mess with nature.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

man and woman have made babies since day one...and it will always be that way, just like with every species
its not days gone by at all...its not something brutally imposed on us, its just the natural order...

yes things change, i think jilleanne your thoughtful analysis leaves out that the gender binary HELPS mankind by simplifying communication for the vast majority of people...

binary gender constructs matter.. and they are in general beneficial
it informs every single day to day communication..it makes our lives much easier...we are a species, we procreate...we identify people by gender..

i would venture that when you first see a person, gender is the first thing that your deepest brain understands about them..this idea is a key part of the scientific rationale of why FFS works so well...we are gendered IMMEDIATELY by others.
as a ts woman i have lived it.. and so if we have a mixed or wrong gender in our minds...its very distressing and for some it can be suffocating...this sucks for us, but 99+% of people really just don't care... and not knowing if you are a boy or a girl instinctively DISTRESSES THEM!!!

there seems to be no doubt that we all agree that inside our heads, gender is something that is not limited to man and woman.. but that concept does not resonate with anyone else...
So even though its fascinating, it just doesnt matter...and there will not be any blending (what does that really mean anyway? 50 genders of your drivers licence? )

Getting rid of the idea of gender binary in peoples day to day lives serves no purpose other than to make us feel better about ourselves...no doubt a good thing, but so would be feeding the world..

Not trying to be a party pooper...but go out and talk to all your friends about this and see what happens..

[lizbendalin]

Finally have a chance to get back to this site. The joys have having little kids, and a busy life. Thanks for all the great comments, it appears that just as in gender identity and expression, there are a countless ways of thinking about this topic, and none of them is wrong.

Judith Butler, Riki Wilchens, and Kate Bornstein have done a great deal of work on this topic, and I would recommend their writings if you want to explore more. You have all given me things to think further about - Thanks!

[Aprilrain]

In my limited experience, the people who most identify with the genderqueer movement are in fact young, mostly collage aged, cisgendered lesbians. Some are genuine F2M transsexuals who probably started out as butch woman and continue to hang out with their old buddies. Very few of the people I have met who call themselves genderqueer are GMs. I have met some CDers who claim to be "bigendered" what ever that means. As far as I can tell it's a word for CDers who don't like the term CDer. Other than the collage kids who for a few short years are beholden to no one almost all of us present as either male or female on a day to day basis. It's perfectly legitimate for a male to want to feel feminine for whatever reason. I feel pretty butch when I have to fix stuff or change light bulbs for my wife but it dosen't change the fact that I only have one gender, female. I think sissystephenie has a point, it's impossible to have a discussion about gender without including sex. The gendered differences between males and females may be societal constructs but they are based on our sex differences. Sure men and woman are capable of doing almost all of the same things, strength being the biggest limiting factor in woman and of course males can't give birth. Throw a group of modern humans into a primitive survival situation and see how long it takes for the majority of them to take on those traditional gender roles!

[*Vanessa*]

.
I speak to the OP: Gender Binary?

And to these questions;

1 Is gender binary?
2 Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)?
3 Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?

The argument that most have elected to use here to answer these questions is flawed by nature. The author could have used Wikipedia’s information of Gender. It is good and complete within the context of what is considered the norm of today’s society.

I would like to offer an analogy to explain what most opposing persons are saying to illustrate this view point. The Model T was available to purchase by the general public in 1927 from Henry Ford. It was available in multiple colors as long as you wanted black.

Suppose for a moment:
Fast forward to the 21 Century and in the United States of America the government set policy that only one motor-vehicle company could do business in the country and that company would be Ford Motors. Clearly, this is a Black and White scenario, in that you could either have a car or not legally. All documentation in Congress, the public Library, school and the lowly nightstands in Motels could only refer to a car in this way so obviously it would mean you are speaking of Ford Motors. No need to explain yourself and if you where talking about Chevy or Dodge well sorry you just don’t know what you are talking about. Further, if you where driving one of ‘those’ other cars well you are just an immature college type person that hopefully someday will grow up and drive a Ford. This is the structure of this discussion and argument which is fine. Sadly however, it is also used by people that have bought a Chevy or Dodge and had a lot of body work done so that their car looks like a Ford just to be normal. Life is not linear, may the ‘farce’ be with you.

[Marleena]

This discussion is making my head spin.:) Liz I strive to look the way I feel I should look, like a woman (me). So I guess it's binary?

[dsmth]

The whole gender binary thing is still very much with most people judging from the how-to-parent books that are out there... If you have a boy then this is what you should do to raise them... If you have a girl then this is how to should raise them... This is from an article I read in today's "Globe and Mail" newspaper's "Life" section. The article's author was criticizing this but it shows how far the general population is from understanding the whole fluidity of internal gender (that is... if it is fluid based on the differing of opinions in the above posts). Here is a link to the article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/young-children/children-trends/boys-vs-girls-are-experts-creating-a-gender-war/article2348167/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Life&utm_content=2348167

[charlie]

I believe that all of here are transgendered to some degree. Some more, some less. Gender for us is anything but binary.

[LeaP]

.
I would like to offer an analogy to explain what most opposing persons are saying to illustrate this view point. The Model T was available to purchase by the general public in 1927 from Henry Ford. It was available in multiple colors as long as you wanted black.

Suppose for a moment:
Fast forward to the 21 Century and in the United States of America the government set policy that only one motor-vehicle company could do business in the ...

Let's try a competing auto analogy, one that fits the scenario better:

There are many manufacturers competing for auto sales for use on the gender highway, but exactly two are popular and completely dominate the market - call them Maserati (M) and Ferrari (F). They almost split the market 50/50, in fact. Oh, a few people drive one when they would really prefer the other, but have made peace with their compromises and are basically OK with their choice. An even smaller number would REALLY rather have the other model, but plain old familiarity, inertia, and even risk aversion (I don't know HOW to drive one of those!) being what they are, they have a hard time switching brands. Some do and, much to everyone's surprise, never look back. No buyer's regret at all, which also applies to most owners, even those who never considered switching.

"But there ARE other brands", you say?

Well, yes, but those models are so ... odd, that few indeed want to drive one, certainly not on the GENDER highway, not even those considering a switch from Maserati or Ferrari.

"But," you protest, "surely this is due to Maserati's and Ferrari's sales pressure and incentives - THAT'S what keeps them from considering the marginal brands."

Well no, it happens that most people just don't want, say, a Ford or Chevy, not even the major brand switchers.

"Maybe it's the fault of Karren the highway engineer, then, the speeds, lanes configurations, even the signage are BIASED toward Maserati and Ferrari?", you offer hopefully.

Well, no again, turns out the highway was pretty much designed by consensus of the users, and while that means that Maseratis and Ferraris actually do run faster and better on the highway, you can't put it down to bias per se.

"How about we just run some Toyotas and Yugos on the highway - people will get used to seeing them and start to like them. Maybe they'll want to buy one!"

Turns out that's a workable idea, and one out of every 10-20,000 drivers or so actually winds up driving one of the less-common brands. The Maserati and Ferrari drivers, however, just blow right on by for the most part. They tolerate the odd Buick, but in truth they still think of them as an irritant. A couple of people that were considering switching from Maserati or Ferrari now have a Land Rover, but most of them just still switched to the other major brand.

Very little sales literature can be found for the now in-use, but rare off-brands because there's so little interest. No-one talks much about them because there's no real reason to. They don't get reviewed much in the press except on the news of the odd pages. You can find a specialty mechanic for those brands, but you really have to look hard. You incur some risk driving one of the off-brands, too. They really aren't as efficient on the gender highway after all. AAA won't tow them. Cops like to stop them. Everyone stares and points fingers when you drive by. The law changed to keep people from running you off the road, but just seeing one of the off-brands drive by is such an alien occurence that the outsider treatment at some level never stops.


And nothing fundamentally changes.

Lea

[*Vanessa*]

Thanks Lea... glad I could stimulate thought for a moment. "Better?", different for sure as you stated. I wish we could all choose, even wrongly would do. :)

[Krististeph]

I was giving a ride to an ex-co-worker, right wing quasi-catholic, but not outspoken- generally decent guy, but no balls, so to speak. He got into a monolog about how men are men and women are women... that's the way God made it, yada yada yada. So I asked him about when babies are born with both male and female reproductive organs. He was astonished, this actually happens? Told him to ask his wife- an RN- thousands of babies are born like this every year here in the US.

Narrow minds are broad targets.

I like a lot of "man tailored" feminine attire- blouses- suits. Very few things sexier than a good looking lady dressed in a suit that looks a little like a man's but is cut just a little different- she's got the body, the attitude, and the guts to pull the look off Easily as sexy as something uber-feminine.

-kristi aka "Binary is for RAM, analog range + outliers is for psychological sciences"

;-)

[ReineD]

They don't get reviewed much in the press except on the news of the odd pages.

... except when one of them breaks down or runs out of gas, and then the newstands are splattered with headlines about how inferior they are. :sad:

Great analogy, Lea. :hugs:

[jillleanne]

[QUOTE=Kaitlyn Michele;2763083]............................................and it will always be that way, just like with every species
its not days gone by at all...its not something brutally imposed on us, its just the natural order...


Careful with that one Kaitlyn. We have species in our oceans today that can reproduce by themselves. No male or female interaction occurs for reproduction. Evolution could do the same for the human species, we just do not know for sure, but we cannot limit ourselves by the unknown based on what we know. We must considder what we don't know.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Good point, jilleane..never say never, or always...heh..my bad!

i'll take back the word always...how bout if i said for the next 10,000 years?? heh

Those species had some evolutionary reason to be that way

[Bree-asaurus]

Good point, jilleane..never say never, or always...heh..my bad!

i'll take back the word always...how bout if i said for the next 10,000 years?? heh

Those species had some evolutionary reason to be that way

Yeah... nothing is going to change in our lifetime... lol

[Asche]

More and more ...[people] are defining themselves as gender queer and presenting in a blend of masculine and feminine.
I know someone who calls herself "genderqueer." She's a high-schooler and has not discussed it with me, but her father says that she doesn't identify as female because "she doesn't like pink," which I interpret to mean that she doesn't like the roles that Society forces girls into. Assuming the father isn't completely misinterpreting his daughter, her attitude makes loads of sense to me. I feel pretty much the same way about masculinity (don't get me started!), I just don't feel like using the "genderqueer" label for myself. Maybe if I were 40 years younger, I would.



Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)?Definitely.

For doctors or therapists or others responsible for helping people to do this is not just limiting. It's IM-not-at-all-HO an abuse of power and privilege. It's an example of putting the comfort and convenience of Society ahead of the needs of their patients. Whatever happened to the "do no harm" part of the Hippocratic Oath?


Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?
Gender itself is a bit foreign to me. I feel about Western ideas of gender the way many Westerners feel about the body-modification practices of some African peoples: they seem to be happy with it, but I'm damned if I understand why.

[Linda Daniels]

This is a serious topic and I don't want to slight it's meaning, however, sad it truly is...I feel that , well..."It is simply the luck of the draw"...which has been kinda a lifetime curse. A long time ago things were different than they appear now so maybe things are easier at this time. We all have to make our peace in whatever way we can. Gender fluidity is a compromise that I have made.

[busker]

[QUOTE=Kaitlyn Michele;2763083]............................................and it will always be that way, just like with every species
its not days gone by at all...its not something brutally imposed on us, its just the natural order...


Careful with that one Kaitlyn. We have species in our oceans today that can reproduce by themselves. No male or female interaction occurs for reproduction. Evolution could do the same for the human species, we just do not know for sure, but we cannot limit ourselves by the unknown based on what we know. We must considder what we don't know.

this just in from the NYTIMES

Men, or at least male biologists, have long been alarmed that their tiny Y chromosome, once the same size as its buxom partner, the X, will continue to wither away until it simply vanishes. The male sex would then become extinct, they fear, leaving women to invent some virgin-birth method of reproduction and propagate a sexless species.

The fear is not without serious basis: The Y and X chromosomes once shared some 800 genes in common, but now, after shedding genes furiously, the Y carries just 19 of its ancestral genes, as well as the male-determining gene that is its raison d’être. So much DNA has been lost that the chromosome is a fraction of its original size.

if you are interested in reading the rest of the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/science/y-chromosome-though-diminished-is-holding-its-ground.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=science

ps with age, everything gets to be just a fraction of its original size!

[busker]

"more and more people are complaining and fighting against the idea that you are either male or female".

Gender is probably binary for 300 million people or so and whether 20-30 people in a small group think otherwise, may not really matter to anyone but them, and might just be considered a "tempestette in a teacup". It is not to marginalize the small group--they can call themselves anything they want to, and join any organization that supports their own view of themselves. What seems to be of importance is that the idea arises out of a need to rationalize and name what it is we do-or how we see ourselves-- in view of the attitudes of the greater population, who, by the way, will never accept (except hypocritically for the most part) that there are people who are different from the general run of population: e.g. crossdressers, homosexuals, drag queens and kings, prostitutes, you name it..

As long as religion makes headway in determining how people "should be", no real discussion is likely to take place that has any lasting meaning. Much of the world is STILL HOMOPHOBIC despite allowances for marriage and other things social. This is not to say that in some ways we should all not try to influence the society at large, but it is clearly an uphill battle. Many here say that "labels" are for cans--I don't happen to believe that necessarily--but nobody forces anyone to claim any gender accept the forms you fill out for services provided by various parties who want that information like employers. We can all just say, I YAM WHAT I YAM. period, end of sentence.

[Frédérique]

I'm just curious as to what your views are: Is gender binary? Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)? Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?

“Picking a gender” is a ridiculous notion, IMHO. The genders are very close together, yet everyone you’ll meet throughout your life tends to think in terms of the “two,” and steps are undertaken to create, and then widen, a yawning chasm between them. This has many dire consequences, especially for those who are aware of this inherent “closeness” I mentioned…

The idea of blending the genders is not only “attractive” to me; it is also a fact, or, more specifically, an accomplishment. Both genders share the same emotions and feelings, so it is only natural (and intelligent) to allow such integration, or, as I call it, gender incorporation. Others may find this idea to be beyond the pale, but I think some form of tacit appreciation is somewhat inevitable – it takes a lot of wasted energy to keep the genders binary, or apart…
:straightface:

[ReineD]

The fear is not without serious basis: The Y and X chromosomes once shared some 800 genes in common, but now, after shedding genes furiously, the Y carries just 19 of its ancestral genes, as well as the male-determining gene that is its raison d’être. So much DNA has been lost that the chromosome is a fraction of its original size.

Busker, did you read the rest of the article?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/science/y-chromosome-though-diminished-is-holding-its-ground.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=science

The Y chromosome shed genes so as to avoid the risk of incompatibility with duplicate genes found on the X. It retained only the genes necessary for male determination and the Y chromosome became stable 29 million years ago (it has not changed since). :)


The Whitehead team’s new report provides solid assurance by showing that the Y’s shedding of genes is not a continuing process. Almost all of its genetic self-sacrifice occurred in the distant past.

This insight was gained by decoding the Y chromosome of rhesus monkeys, which shared a common ancestor with humans at the time, and retain 20 ancestral genes, meaning those that have a counterpart gene on the X. Only one of these genes has been lost in humans at some time in the last 25 million years, showing that the Y chromosome became essentially stabilized long ago.

“It’s my sincere hope that this article might put the notion of the disappearing Y chromosome to rest,” Dr. Page said. He and his colleagues have reconstructed the entire history of the Y chromosome, showing that its no-swap zone expanded in five stages, of which the first began 320 million years ago and the last ended 29 million years ago.

[Rianna Humble]

"more and more people are complaining and fighting against the idea that you are either male or female".

Gender is probably binary for 300 million people or so

Actually, I think that you will find that far more than a mere 4% of the population have no problem regarding gender as a binary - if it were only the 300 million of which you speak, I don't think your quote would be at all relevant (why would you worry what only 1 in 25 of the world's population thinks).

To try to come back to the OP's questions, I agree with those who have tried to make a difference between gender expression, gender identity and "physical gender".

Julie has pointed out that even in that last category, there is an in-between state where people are born with some of the characteristics of both physical genders, but she also notes that for most of those IS folk, their gender identity is binary.

As an MtF TS, I am amongst those who were born with one physical gender but have an opposite gender identity. For a long time, I tried to conform my gender expression to my physical gender rather than to my gender identity, but that became impossible. I now allow my gender expression to reflect my gender identity and am progressing towards aligning my physical gender to those two.

There are others I have come across who genuinely seem to have more than one gender identity and who regard themselves as bi-gender fitting their gender expression to whichever of their gender identities dominates at a given time.

I do believe that doctors / religious people / therapists who say that someone whose identity is between the two extremes should confine their expression to one or the other extreme may be doing more harm than they realise.

I do not find the idea of blending the genders to be an attractive prospect for myself, but I have no problem with someone who wishes to blend their gender expressions whatever their physical gender or gender identification.

I believe that the later question about someone who identifies as male but wears heels and make-up is really just a question of fashion. The norm has changed so often (even in my lifetime) that these should not be seen as defining characteristics. Showing my age for a while, Mick Jagger was recently performing at the White House in the USA. In the past he has worn both heels and make-up but no-one ever thought he was genderqueer.

[*Vanessa*]

It's hard to strip intellect from the rhetoric at times if we can not see the other side of an argument.

From a scientific perspective:

The fact that there are a, precious, few humans that are intersexed proves life is not binary. To then apply theories to one side of the argument or the other is futile if the other person doesn't believe that theory floats, for what ever reason. The dark side to this is that there are far too many people on this planet that take their lives (kill themselves) because they can't find a way to exist in a binary world.

OP: I think a Gender Binary is in error. I also think that how the questions where issued and supported are flawed in that they are only asked from one perspective, which my last analogy was eluding to. NOTE TO READER: This is not a slam towards the author of the OP on my part, but an opinion towards the group that is being represented.

Question:
Is it healthy to choose one gender over another to live a healthy life in today's society? YES
Do I agree with the need to choose? NO
Do I think there is only two polar opposites, being female and male (mental, physical, spiritual)? NO