Thanks to Those Rude Women

[Beth-Lock]

Everyone has met women who clock us in public and either rudely let their feelings be portrayed on their faces or in their body language or even get into mocking us. I am not talking about those that go on to engage in actual public harrassment, as they are a different kettle of fish. The sooner that behaviour is more thoroughly stigmatized by society or even made illegal, the better. But what positive can we say about those experiences of being clocked, which are so painful, hurtful and antisocial? Can anything good come of those experiences?

Well, they may (or may not), be an honest indication coming from a stranger you would not normally trust to be honest, that our attempts to pass are somewhat flawed, perhaps in some detail only a woman would pick up on, like whether our appearance, clothing, etc., is in fashion or not. It may also mean it is out of context. I have got some frowns or disapproving looks which I thought at first meant I had been clocked, which may have just meant that my choice of clothing was inappropriate, like too much pink on an adult, or too short a skirt. But it does indicate in either case, that there is something wrong with our presentation, which, one hopes can be fixed. Of course if it would take FFS to fix it, it may be beyond our control for financial or health reasons, but even that may serve as a warning of what we can get away with in a given, that is that specific, context.

If you are not any place near your usual stomping grounds, there may be no lasting damage done when you are clocked, and instead it may serve merely as useful feedback. Going somewhere a distance away in stealth mode, for example sneaking out in the car, and visiting a public place far away, is something some may do deliberately to see if they have their act together enough to pass, or at least good enough in that context. (In a busy mall, most people are just striding along wit their minds on shopping, or whatever, and do not notice anybody. -- You might even be walking along with a pet rat on your shoulder and nobody might notices in that sort of context. And yes, I have done that too!) I began to appreciate that testing ground aspect of it all, in the latter days of my period spent as merely a crossdresser.

Then again, such incidences, at that stage, may be quite amusing in their own right, and be almost as much fun as those times in which you are thrilled to pass. Certainly they are more memorable, and make better stories to recount later with friends, or write up in your journal or diary. I can remember times when I was out cross-dressed to celebrate Halloween with a woman friend, who could not stop addressing me with my male name, despite the female garb I was thoroughly clothed in. It was so funny, in the end I never stopped telling the story of it.

When a woman clocks you or seems to, the other thing to remember is that they usually do not know what they are dealing with or exactly what they have to disapprove of. As a worst case scenario for them, you may be a criminal out to knock over a bank or store in disguise, and willing to snuff out any witnesses that might give them away, with a pistol concealed in your big purse. You may be a criminal on the run or someone in the witness protection program, cases in which the woman clocker may just have put themselves in a nasty situation, by making an issue of it. (I would not try to pretend you are though, or you could end up in real trouble with the police or worse still, with the mafia.) On the other hand, you may be a post-op trans having a bad hair or make-up day, in which case the clocker is being politically incorrect and socially offensive, or you may be merely a thrill-seeker celebrating Halloween a little out of season, in which latter case the joke may be on them as it may be you are out to shock and enjoy shaking people up. Such a joker of the latter kind, may laugh at them, and make them the centre of an embarrassing scene.

In between those extremes, you may be trans and at an early stage of getting used to it, or you may be a longer term cross-dresser, on one of your 'adventures.' Of course they may be dealing with a genetic woman with bad taste, unappealing looks, a tendancy towards presenting as butch, perhaps for reasons of life-style choice, or a gender bending female. The point is, the rude woman you are dealing with, really may not know much or anything about you, when they single you out for derision or disapproval. Knowledge being power, that too may give you the upper hand, either if there is a real confrontation, or just a psychological one that you need to resolve in your mind to preserve your diginity and equanimity.

So thanks to those women who go put of their way to be boorish, wearing their prejudices on their sleeves, and at the very least, give us some unintendedly frank feedback, a giggle or a public example of someone making a fool of themselves, (them not us), because of their own issues. There is no wind, as the saying goes, that blows nobody any good. That can be our comfort in those awkward moments.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

many many years ago i was doing my dress at motel 6, drive to the cherry hill hilton, walk around the parking lot thing, and 3-4 guys surprised as they came around the front of a bunch of vans... at first one guy said OMG you are tall...another said...OMG its a dude... i blurted out something to the effect of, "I'M A COP..MOVE ON"..that worked for the 20 seconds i needed to rush to my car with a mix of comedy and dread in my mind...

[Aprilrain]

My only negative experiences are with wait staff and one bum. The wait staff probably meant nothing by calling me sir or he but the F$&@ers still didn't get a tip. The bum said something unintelligible, I said what then he said are you a dude? I said no then he got up and walked away. That was pre FFS. When I was still "CDing" ie pre hormones, wig etc. I was heckeled on two occasions by some young black kids. The first group was like 12ish the second group were teens. The second experience scared me since I was alone in a parking lot and there were two males one of whom was doing the heckling. It was day time and they were with their GFs, I ignored them and quickly got in my car. They just moved on. I have never had an experience such as the one you describe with woman. I'm quite shocked, I'm sorry that happened. I find woman are generally very accepting (as long as it's not their man!) and or polite enough to keep there opinions to themselves. In fact I'd say that here in the very boring Midwest as long as you stay in middle-class land people will just politely ignore you

[RachelOKC]

I'm not quite sure why the OP singles out women because I don't really see anything there that's gender specific.

So you get clocked and someone was rude...it happens. What are you really going to do about it? Lecture the person? Shoot 'em? Go home and pore over your presentation to find the one flaw that allowed a person to see your very trans-ness? No, I think you'll probably be irritated with it then move on with life, like you would in any other circumstance where someone was rude. Why let stupid people ruin your day?

So I'm trans and someone read me. BFD, happens every time I walk out the door. If I still obsessed about what other people thought and said, I'd have never walked out that door in the first place. I'm glad I did, because I found that most people aren't rude and most don't give a damn about you being trans.

[Miranda-E]

don't worry about it.
At some point in a parking lot, or a line, or an intersection, or getting off a bus while they are pushing into the bus, some random angry guy will give you the ultimate compliment and absolutely make your day (maybe week).

"stupid bitch" the two most beautiful words an early trans person can here.

[Chickhe]

I was once at a party and was getting a really nasty stare down from a woman at the table next to mine. It turns out her boyfriend and friends were talking to me and we were joking around as I had told them I was male...she thought I was another woman moving in on her guy and a little while later they told her about me and she came over and joined in the fun. I misread her and thought she was unhappy about me CDing. It was one rare night when I was totally passing except my voice...even got ushered in to the woman's room by the other girls who thought I had made a wrong turn to the mens. The thing to do, is smile to show them you are friendly and forget about trying to figure them out, the only way is to be friendly with them and ask them directly if you need to know.

[Beth-Lock]

Perhaps I talked about women because of a specific incident yesterday that smarted. But there are other reasons too.

Men often do not notice, at least if you are reasonably passable but women have a sharper eye. Women know more about femininity and being a woman and so they can better pick up on the little things that betray you. They also seem in general more observant of others, perhaps because they are in the habit of looking for clues as to what to say, etc., while a guy might make up his mind not to say anything, or say the first thing that comes into his mind, without stopping and looking for clues to guide or one might say, restrain him. (Women have been traditionally under more social contraints.)

Women have their own reasons for trying detect a 'fake' woman, which though not fewer or weaker than those of men, motivate them strongly all the same. One of course is a wariness about pervs. Another seems to be a sort of jealously if that is the term, for the status of womanhood which most do not want to share with a transwoman.

Finally, there is the sort of female aversion to and amusement with, men doing unmasculine things. Long before I transitioned, women would correct me or observe pointedly that my behaviour was not sufficiently masculine. On one occasion, I was told I was giggling with the women, for example. This drive to detect flaws in a man's masculinity, may have to do with the courting instinct, but actually seems to extend to the granting or withholding of basic respect, when the woman is not courting or even elderly. This used to extend to deploring men with gay or seemingly gay mannerisms, though this has since become politically incorrect.

A lot of thinking aye? But I enjoy this sort of analysis without becoming obsessed with it, I hope, or using it as an excuse not to move on after a bad experience. In fact, this sort of analysis is a very feminine thing, and has becaome a highly noticeable characteristic of feminism too. Moving on without further thought or emotional involvement is I hope, a part of so much of the masculine life-style that I am leaving farther and farther behind. Or, when in a skirt, as I am all the time now, do try and think like a woman!

[Traci Elizabeth]

Not to toot my own horn, but I have never had any woman second guess me or give me strange looks. The same for men. But everyone thought I was a woman way before I transitioned. Even as a child, I looked like a girl. My problem prior to transitioning was that I was bullied, made fun of and harassed by boys then later guys as being a female trying to act like a boy then a man. I suffered greatly for looking like a girl all my life but now it is a Godsend. I am very lucky in many ways.

I never try to "pass" as I am a woman with or without make-up. Everything about me indicates I'm a woman so I have just blended in. But now that I am like all other woman, I try to differentiate myself by developing my own persona, attire, and feminine expressions. I am flirty, always upbeat, very friendly to everyone, an extrovert, and I show off my breasts the majority of the time but in a classy way not cheesy or tacky.

[Stephenie S]

To exactly which rude women are you referring?

On behalf of all women kind, I object. The women I know are quite polite and would never dream of pointing out your sartorial gaffs in public. Were you to poll most women I am sure you would find we don't give one sweet flying patootie what you choose to wear, thank you very much.

And a criminal or witness protection program participant? Please. You are watching too much television.

Stephie

[kimdl93]

oh, I'll admit it....I have had a few disapproving looks when I've been clocked by other women. But, many more times, I've received a very warm smile and occassionally a supportive comment. I'm not sure why, but I generally feel accepted by women. And men just don't seem to notice me one way or the other.

[Holly]

I would say they are no less rude than someone marginalizing a large segment of the membership of this forum as "mearly" crossdressers. :(

[Beth-Lock]

To exactly which rude women are you referring?

Stephie

In the several occasions, (actually more than a dozen I'd guess), it has happened to me, I failed to ask them for their name and social insurance number. Sorry.

[AllieSF]

Beth I have been out a lot as a MtF CD and have rarely experienced negative looks from anyone, let alone women. Actually, the women seem to embrace me more. Maybe it is more that the women do notice some differences and what you may interpret as negative looks are just curious looks? I also question that you think they see your flaws or failures in appearance. Again, I think they may notice the differences, i.e. maybe lingering male features. I truly doubt that they would classify them as flaws or failures on your part. You know that when we look for issues, real or imaginary, we will probably always find them, especially when they are imaginary. I think you may need a more positive attitude on how others see and perceive you, and also need a more "I do not really care if they see the differences" approach when out. Do you ever approach those who give you those negative looks to ask them what they see and how they feel about that? It may change your viewpoint, or may even confirm your opinion. Try it and let us know.

[Beth-Lock]

You know that when we look for issues, real or imaginary, we will probably always find them, especially when they are imaginary. I think you may need a more positive attitude on how others see and perceive you, and also need a more "I do not really care if they see the differences" approach when out.

Now I am imagining things and it is all my fault. I could turn that around and say you are probably imagining your perceptions. Since there is such a thing as a negative hallucination, then it seems there are negative delusions along with them.


Do you ever approach those who give you those negative looks to ask them what they see and how they feel about that?

Here that might be considered harassment. Of course in SF, harassment is I guess fairly routine, and ignored, (unless someone pulls a gun out perhaps). SF also has a reputation for being the most liberal city in the world for co-existence with GLBT behaviour and lifestyles. I would be careful not to assume that SF is typical of the rest of the world, or even better than the rest of us on this planet.

[Melody Moore]

I have had 3 incidents involving women, and on one of those occasions one of the women was trans themselves.

The trans woman interrupted me when I was being served in a shop after I tried to speak to the cashier, she said
"You got the face of a man!". My come back was priceless "And what? you don't honey? Just because I think you
got the face of a dog, I am not so rude as to interrupt you and tell you that". There was about 4 other customers
who were waiting to be served who heard what I said & burst out laughing. The trans woman was also told by the
cashier to leave the store and to never come back. This transphobe left quickly with her head hanging down low.

The second incident happened when I was out with a bunch of girlfriends at a restaurant. I noticed a woman sitting
at the next table who had been staring at me for over 15 minutes like she was studying me. So I asked her if she
was OK? My girlfriends had all noticed that she was staring at me as well. Then she said "I like your hair". At that
point, one of my girlfriends asked her what her problem was as well to which she replied "He", but quickly corrected
herself with "She". But it was too late because my girlfriends had already seen and heard enough and they pounced
on her. Eventually this woman and her boyfriend had to leave the restaurant because it was going to get violent if
she had of stayed. One of the girls who was with us is a butch lesbian & a fully licensed security guard. Meanwhile
I said nothing more during this incident & it is nice to know my girlfriends will defend me like that when we are out.

This was a another case where it turned around to bite the offender squarely on the butt. Anyway
here is the 3rd incident which I posted about here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?168539-Hidden-Subtle-Prejudice&p=2742698&highlight=#post2742698) back in early February - and you really would
think they would have learnt something by now, but some people really are gluttons for punishment

Back in January I went out to the casino because my best friend's band was playing their final gig after
13 years as the resident band at the casino. I met this gorgeous tall slim lady with brunette hair also
around my same age that I was really keen to get to know. She was flirting with me when we danced
so I knew there was some strong chemistry there & something we were really keen to explore together.

We went outside to the smoking area and sat down at a table where it was quite, to have a quite
drink and a chat. Not long after that an Asian girl came & sat down right next to me as two other
Asian girls sat on the opposite side of the table. And I also noticed that there was an Australian
guy also tagging along with this group. The girl who sat next to me got right up in my face virtually
as soon as she sat down, she looked me up & down, then said to me... "Man, you look like sh!t".

I simply asked her "What is your problem?", then she replied "You!". So when it is at this stage, this
is the point you have to show them a mirror. So I turned around and said to her... "Sorry honey, but
it is you who has the problem here, not me". One of her girlfriends went to say something to me, but
I had already seen and heard enough, so I cut her off mid sentence and said to this other girl... "Look,
if any of you have an issue with me, go and sit somewhere else, because I did not welcome you to sit
down at our table with us to be scrutinised and abused like your friend just did to me just now". This
girl told the other one who just abused me not to be rude and abusive towards me. So that was ok even
though I still didn't get any apology, the girl who abused me then asked me "Are you happy?" to which I
replied "F*ck yeah! why wouldnt I be?". The one who abused me then started to back right off and said
"That is really cool & I really respect that". But did she respect? I doubt it after what she tried to do to me.

After a bit of small talk, one of the other girls asked me my name so I introduced myself as "Melody",
but the lady I was with was not feeling comfortable there because this whole incident upset her and
she also noticed that others around us had also picked up on what was going on at our table. So
she suggested that we go back inside to the bar and get another drink. As we went to walk away
the guy that was with the group said "See you later Mel Gibson". At that point this lady grabbed
my hand and let out a "Grrrrrrr!" and expressed her anger and frustration with people who were
like this. When we got inside we reported the incident to security. After that I had to point out the
two main offenders who were responsible, which was the girl who got in my face and the guy who
addressed me as "Mel Gibson". They were escorted out of the casino by security and learnt a hard
lesson that you cannot mistreat, disrespect & try to vilify other people like this anymore.

Anyway, my lady friend and I got back to enjoying ourselves after that and we met lots of great
people. Some made comments about how rude these others were towards me. So most people do
take more of an issue with the transphobic bigots than they do with someone like me who was not
out to ruin anyone else's night or harm anyone. The feedback I got was that I handled the situation
perfectly. Anyway, we had a few more drinks and started to get the swing of things, but the news
of what had happened earlier had spread right around the venue so other people were talking about
me and the lady who was with me. Eventually she got really angry because some guy came up & tried
to out me to her by whispering in her ear about who I really was and she verbally exploded. She yelled
so loud at this guy to just get away and leave us alone that everyone around us just froze in fear with
what just happened. At this point it was definitely time for us to leave, so the lady came home with me
and it is the first time I have been intimate with anyone else since I spit up with my ex-girlfriend.

We talked a lot about the crap that went on and she told me how it angered her, but she was amazed
at how I dealt with it all and stayed so positive through it all. She thinks I am very courageous, but I
told her that I didn't think of it like that, I just don't see the sense in make a bad situation any worse,
but at the same time I wasn't going to be bullied or intimidated by anyone else either. And we also know
we can walk back into the casino any time we like and we will always be respected and loved by the greatest
majority of people for simply being the person we really are. So this incident may have sparked of a new
relationship now in my life as well as encouraged others to talk about these issues. I will just have to see
how things go with this new lady. So is all you can do is make the best of any situation & leave it up to fate.

So I owe a special thanks to all those rude women - some of them actually helped me to get laid! PMSL! :heehee:
Good Luck! :hugs:

[Jorja]

I have traveled the world to do business on my own for over 30 years as a woman. The one and only time I ever had a problem with public harrassment was at a shopping mall in Huntington Beach, California. There were a group of teenage boys walking by as I exited a store and they let me have it. As luck would have it, two policeman walked up and arrested two of the teenagers on outstanding warrants. They apologized to me for the behavior of the boys and said they hoped it had not given me a bad view of their city. Of course, I had to turn to the other boys and say, "see what happens when you mess with the wrong people"? Other than that, yes I used to get a few stares but nothing out of the ordinary.

[Jonianne]

Usually it seems to me, its the women who when you make eye contact with and smile, they just smile back with that "knowing" smile and life goes on. The worse I've had is when a guy felt the need to loudly point me out and just laugh me to scorn in front of his gf, as I walked by. There are people who just feel the need to be mean to others just for their personal enjoyment.

[Melody Moore]

There are people who just feel the need to be mean to others just for their personal enjoyment.

I beg to differ, I don't think it is for personal enjoyment why they do this, I believe that it
highlights their own internalised homo/transphobia. So just like the quote in my signature...

"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be".

I get people all the time making statements about how they wished to have the courage I have
to be the person I am. I see nothing courageous about it, I only see is the need to be honest. :)

[Jessinthesprings]

I could probably count the times I've had people treat me poorly on one hand. I get stares but at almost 6-3 that's to be expected. Very tall GGs get the same treatment. But, I've ran into the person that insists on calling you sir. I always thought it would be crushing but I was actually angry.

[Eryn]

Everyone has met women who clock us in public and either rudely let their feelings be portrayed on their faces or in their body language or even get into mocking us.

Actually, I don't recall ever running into one of these "rude women." Of course, figuring out what another person is thinking as they look at me is difficult. It might be "That's a man" or it might be "That's a nice necklace." I can't control it, so I why let it control me?

[Melody Moore]

I could probably count the times I've had people treat me poorly on one hand.
One hand is all I need as well to count the times I have been treated poorly - 5 times to be exact. And I get
people now going out of their way in trying to get to know me because they want to learn more about me.

It is kinda freaky sometimes and I even get a bit of that 'rock-star' type thing happening now where some people
just wanted to just touch me. To some people I am a bit larger than life because I am a photo-journalist who is
now writing on gender issues and also & taking photos for a few major LGBTIQ Magazines. A natal woman freaked
me out one night because she sounded like a stalker. I took off from the nightclub because she was way too friendly
for my liking. Apparently she is always looking for my photos & articles in the publications I am now working for.

[Jonianne]

...."Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be".....

Let me carry it one step further. Haters tend to be one's who express that hatred not only to one group, but any group that is different or they feel threatened by. Those same haters will laugh and mock obese people, handicap people, those of different races and nationalities and faiths. They feel small themselves and will try to put down anyone they can to try to make themselves look superior. I don't think they necessarly want to be any of those groups, including trans, however it certainly could very well be the "methinkest thou protesteth too much" syndrome.

[Stephenie S]

In the several occasions, (actually more than a dozen I'd guess), it has happened to me, I failed to ask them for their name and social insurance number. Sorry.

Here's a suggestion Beth. SMILE.

Is someone looking at you? Give 'em a big smile.

Is someone gossiping about you? Give 'em a big smile.

Passing someone on the street or at the market? Give 'em a big smile.

Smiling should be one of your most powerful weapons of defense. Smile. It's expected you know. A smile signals to the world that you are happy and satisfied with yourself and what you are doing.

Women smile often. We smile at men. We smile at other women. We especially smile at children. And sometimes we just smile to ourselves 'cause being a woman is just so darn much fun.

Stephie

[ReineD]

Thanks to Those Rude Women

You might want to look at this thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?170045-Do-they-really-don-t-notice-don-t-care

The general consensus is, people who cross the gender barriers do incite reactions in others. If TSs and CDers (the cis population does not know the difference between the two) formed a larger segment of our society, if the population was loosely divided into one third each male, female, and transgender, then no one would raise an eyebrow. I gather this is why FFS is popular, so as to not have people constantly question a person's gender.

(I am not suggesting that TSs are not women. I'm speaking of appearance only, at the beginning of a transition.)

I also think that both men and women experience general confusion and some experience anxiety over gender nonconformity. Men can be rude too. The one time my SO and I received a direct rude comment, it came from a teenage boy.

That said, I don't think that reactions among the cisgenders necessarily indicates disapproval. I remember the first time I saw a TG (the spouse of a close friend of mine). I glanced at her several times. There was no part of me that said "this is right or this is wrong", it was my brain learning to acknowledge a type of person I had not seen before, a GM who presented female. This was a normal reaction. After the first few times of meeting her everything fell into place and she was as "normal" to me as anyone else.

I don't think most people clocking you would assume you are a criminal (as you posted). At the same time, they simply haven't been exposed enough to have developed an understanding that you might be having a bad hair day, like perhaps their next door neighbor. As much as we wish it were different, transgenders (I use this term in an all encompassing, general sense so as to not exclude anyone) are rare in our society and most people just don't know what to make of it until they get to know a TG better.

[Beth-Lock]

I think that part of the disagreement/misunderstanding between me and many respomding here, is that I don't want to be transgendered or transsexual any longer, but just a woman, and be accepted at face value as I present, as an (unhyphenated) woman.

[Melody Moore]

Beth, people are going to have their opinions, regardless of what you, me or anyone else thinks.
There are many people in society who are cruel to anyone who is different, even those who are
overweight & disabled get teased & bullied for who they are. I am not saying this is right, but they
get the same type of discrimination & vilification but for different reasons. So I really think if you
are going to transition then you have to get use to it & just ignore what people might be thinking
or saying because noone ever really has no control over this. However I also think you are being
a bit paranoid about what people really think about you. And not everyone is thinking the things
you fear them saying & this sounds like your own internalised transphobia playing havoc on you
right now. So I suggest that you talk to your therapist & find new ways to deal with this problem.

[Fallen Angel]

People are people and sad as it may seem when they dont understand something or cant relate to it they become defensive.
thats humane nature. and then theres one's that have a hard time with being critersized wich again is being defencive.

[Beth-Lock]

.... So I suggest that you talk to your therapist & find new ways to deal with this problem.

My most supportive therapist simply agrees with me. Even the other is more or less non-committal. My transition is a fait accompli, not something I am considering if I want. I am well into it at this point.

[Melody Moore]

My most supportive therapist agrees with me.
So what? because what can your therapist really do about changing the way other people react to you?

I think you need to focus on new ways of dealing with this or it will eat away at you.

[Beth-Lock]

...what can your therapist really do about changing the way other people react to you?

What can you do when faced with other's bad behaviour, except shrug it off and at most, try to avoid them.
I think everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill, with my post which was intended merely to be of the feel good type.

[Melody Moore]

I think everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill, with my post which was intended merely to be of the feel good type.
I don't see how this was ever meant to be a 'feel good' type post when you are complaining here about 'rude' women.

Now you are really confusing me.

[ReineD]

Beth, one of the members who responded in this thread suggested you smile when you encounter reactions you do not expect. This is good advice! :)

Earlier I tried to point out why some people (both women AND men) react, and this is because there aren't enough people transitioning for it to be commonplace. Still, it doesn't mean these people necessarily all have evil intents. Some might disapprove but maybe others are just puzzled, as I was when I first met my friend's spouse nine years ago (not having met another transperson before), and it would just take getting to know you before it would all fall into place for them. Maybe when they see you, they'd like to ask your name because their brother is transitioning too! Maybe some people who notice aren't judging you at all.

[docrobbysherry]

Because the loud guffahs and, "OMG, that's a guy!", seem to be mostly coming from men.:eek:

I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that I'm a guy dressed like a woman!?:brolleyes:

If U can pass as a female part of the time, COOL! :thumbsup:
But, many of us CAN'T! No matter how we "present"!:sad:

[Beth-Lock]

Well, the vituperative attackers of my post, reached a new low in branding me personally as transphobic, (suffering from internalized transphobia). It is this sort of bad behaviour in which personal advice, even overly personal, merges into ad hominem arguments, (attacking the person rather than the idea or thesis put forward), that discourages the more thoughtful participants in this forum, and gives the forum and its more loquacious a bad rap.

It has also not escaped my notice that there seems to be no way you can express, word or write a post in a way so that it will not be misunderstood, or at least, taken as a jumping off point for a digression, and often by this means, an excusion into the less rational modes of discourse, and even into emotional mud slinging. While I was pondering this before starting this thread, I concluded that this topic was too juicy and too likely to help some deal with their trans life, to suppress. I was I hope not disappointed in this, though of course my anticipaitons of it being misunderstood by many, also turned out to be justified.

However, the discussion that might logically follow from this, is something I will save for any book I might write on the trans phenomena, rather than post here, for all the above reasons. I would like to thank Melody however, though her posts have struck a sour note with me again, for holding up to my scrutiny the need for a thorough-going analysis and appraisal of the problematic term, 'transphobia.' Indeed, the philosophy behind the invention of this family of concepts, seems to embody the whole idea of reducing an otherwise rational disagrement to a more primitive form of interpersonal interchange. (Of course I am aware of the concept behind stipulating emotive definitions for words, something drawn to my attention during my studenthood at the age of 18.)

While few are likely to, let me just say, "Don't cry for me," because I did get my message through for the few that understood it and overtly embraced it, and even for those for whose heads it went over the top, perhaps an inkling of its true message got through.

[Melody Moore]

Sorry Beth, if you think I was 'attacking' you, but the fact is whether you agree with this statement or not,
there are many of us who suffer from internalised transphobia. I know I am & will be one of the first to admit
that because I also detest the 'trans' labels just like you do. I really want to change my body & live my life as
"binary" to my gender role as possible. But I am also a realist who realises that no matter what I do to change
the way I look, there is always going to be someone who knows me and where I came from prior to transition.


I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that I'm a guy dressed like a woman!?
This was something else I wanted to point out, but I didn't want to offend you Beth, but ultimately
it is only you who can change how others perceive you. But I know lots of transsexuals who don't
'pass' as females, but how they deal with things is also very different. Even if people are rude, try
smiling back at these people while always confident about who you are works best every time.

So the question is "What can you do about it?" and the truthful answer to that is "not a whole lot".
There is more you can do if you have the money, like FFS for example but if you don't have the money
then what other choices do you have? Even FFS does not guarantee 100% acceptance. And this is why
I suggested you talk your therapist about this for some help in finding new ways of coping with any type
of scrutinisation, discrimination, vilification and abuse. To avoid the later I really believe that you have to
first learn to cope and manage the scrutinisation from other people on first of all.

One of the best ways I found of dealing with these issues are to just ignore what other people think or
say and just smile and be nice to everyone, including the rude people. And this is very effective because
they soon realise that it is themselves that have the issues here and not me. If I made a big deal about
it then it just reveals that I am insecure in my transition and this will only become an "opening" that the
bullies can target if I let them do that. But I found by being happy, secure & confident in my transition
then this denies these types of opportunities for others to attack me & has turned the situation around.

For the most part society just sees me as just another woman and I am rarely challenged on that &
as I said I can count the number of times others have been rude to me on one hand. And the worst
experience I had was when I first came out to my house-mate and he had all his friends come around
to teach me a lesson. These guys were going to give me a flogging apparently, but guess what? It all
ended up backfiring big time on my bisexual house-mate who was struggling with his own internalised
homo/transphobia. And what turned these guys around was the fact I was smiling, happy & confident.

So instead of having to defend myself from a physical assault, I found that I was answering a whole lot of
questions from a very curious bunch of guys who told me that they had the greatest amount of respect
for me, because I had the courage to just be me and not to care what anyone else thought. They even
admitted to me they would not have the courage to do what I am doing. Men are far worse than women
will ever be and it takes them a lot more to get over homophobia & transphobia than it does with women.

And the reason why I say this is because it goes right against the grain of the male ego for a start to be
sexually or gender diverse. And men can become very violent towards any LGBTI person if they feel their
very delicate egos are being challenged. So if you are having this much trouble with women, how are you
going to cope with the discrimination, humiliation, vilification & physical abuse from males when it happens?

[ReineD]

It has also not escaped my notice that there seems to be no way you can express, word or write a post in a way so that it will not be misunderstood,

This is hard to do when your post title is "Thanks to Those Rode Women" as opposed to saying something like maybe "What to do About Rude People". You gave the impression that not only are YOU attacking a segment of our society, but you are doing so in a sarcastic manner. You just sounded angry to me, and to perhaps some of our other members.

I see nothing in this thread except members who are trying to help you feel better. If you see ad hominem attacks then perhaps you do need help with your feelings of self-worth, and I say this with the kindest of intentions. This is not an attack. Although I am not transgender, I've needed help with self-worth issues in the past and there is no shame in this.

[Beth-Lock]

This is hard to do when your post title is "Thanks to Those Rude Women" as opposed to saying something like maybe "What to do About Rude People". You just sounded angry to me, and to perhaps some of our other (s).....

I meant what I said in the title. I already know what to do about rude women. As Melody said, there is not a whole lot you can do, most of the time anyway. I was not seeking 'help.' I was just pointing out part of the attitude towards this that might serve as a consolation to others, as it does for me. Indeed in some earlier posts, I mused how being clocked can be more fun than passing sometimes.

And how else can I be expected to react to an accusation that I am transphobic, a label with a powerful stigma, when diagnosed of me by a non-professional and outside the context of a therapy session? If it is irrelevant to the post, which I believe it is, what is the point of mentioning it? My diagnosis of this by labelling it, (as an argumentum ad hominem), was however in the context of logical analysis and dialectic.

I am not angry, but very frustrated by forums like this, and I am sorry if it shows.

[ReineD]

And how else can I be expected to react to an accusation that I am transphobic

Ah! I see what this is about now. I did a word search for transphobia in this thread (it's a lot quicker than reading all the posts again), and I see that Melody used the term liberally in several posts, but she was describing others, not you. In her post #26 she suggested that you may suffer from internalized transphobia, which happens frequently in our community. I've suffered from it myself in the past when imagining that people who were snickering, were snickering at my SO and I. To internalize the bias that is constantly thrown at us is not a sign of weakness in my view, it is a natural human reaction and it is good to be aware of the possibility this might be an issue, so that we can do something about it.

At any rate, there is a difference between being transphobic and suffering the results of transphobia by internalizing it. Still, Melody is the only person who suggested this and not any of the other people who posted in your thread, so perhaps the two of you can sort this out via PM. I would not allow the comments from one person to color your entire experience here.

Here's more on the topic if you wish to read about it:
http://tgmentalhealth.com/2011/03/25/internalized-trans-phobia/

[docrobbysherry]

Ah! I see what this is about now. I did a word search for transphobia in this thread (it's a lot quicker than reading all the posts again), and I see that Melody used the term liberally in several posts, but she was describing others, not you. In her post #26 she suggested that you may suffer from internalized transphobia, which happens frequently in our community. I've suffered from it myself in the past when imagining that people who were snickering, were snickering at my SO and I. To internalize the bias that is constantly thrown at us is not a sign of weakness in my view, it is a natural human reaction and it is good to be aware of the possibility this might be an issue, so that we can do something about it.

At any rate, there is a difference between being transphobic and suffering the results of transphobia by internalizing it. Still, Melody is the only person who suggested this and not any of the other people who posted in your thread, so perhaps the two of you can sort this out via PM. I would not allow the comments from one person to color your entire experience here.

Here's more on the topic if you wish to read about it:
http://tgmentalhealth.com/2011/03/25/internalized-trans-phobia/
This is well beyond what I would call an "in depth" explanation, Reine. And, you're RITE ON! At least in MY case!

While I've become VERY EXCEPTING of seeing all sorts of men in dresses since coming out here 4 years ago and meeting many at CD/TG/TS events. That hasn't helped me much regarding MY SELF! I still cringe seeing myself dressed in a mirror or photo!
"A perfect example of internalized Trans Phobia if I've ever seen one, Dr. Freud!"

[ReineD]

That hasn't helped me much regarding MY SELF! I still cringe seeing myself dressed in a mirror or photo!

I dunno, Sherry, you and I might be suffering from something entirely different! I believe it's called, "internalized age-a-phobia", which is an intense dislike of seeing one's own wrinkles and sagging boobs and butts. :p

... and graying hair.

... and the chicken waddle at the neck and below of the upper arm.

... and wrinkly elbows and knees.

... oh, and the middle aged-spread. lol

:D

[Melody Moore]

In her post #26 she suggested that you may suffer from internalized transphobia, which happens frequently in our community. I've suffered from it myself in the past when imagining that people who were snickering, were snickering at my SO and I. To internalize the bias that is constantly thrown at us is not a sign of weakness in my view, it is a natural human reaction and it is good to be aware of the possibility this might be an issue, so that we can do something about it.

Thank you for your very rational and helpful input here Reine because this is exactly what I am talking about.

I also pointed out in post #35 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?170032-Thanks-to-Those-Rude-Women&p=2773035&viewfull=1#post2773035) that I too suffer from internalised transphobia which is completely different to
the other type of transphobia that we might get from society. I don't want to be known as a 'trans' anything
either just like Beth said in this post which indicated to me that internalised transphobia is a part of the problem:


I don't want to be transgendered or transsexual any longer, but just a woman, and be accepted at face value as I present, as an (unhyphenated) woman.

Beth, agree or disagree, but this is a perfect example of internalised transphobia, you want to be an unhyphenated
woman just like I do, because I have issues with the stigma & other crap we deal with the same as you do, so this
is why I pointed this out to you. I feel I am coping a lot better with it than you but I am acknowledging this is also a
problem for me and I don't really like it either. I also told you how I manage this scrutinisation from others in society.

I am not out to attack you, but I am trying to understand this issue & manage it in a better way. But before anyone
can help, we need to recognise what some of the key issues are. I have come to this determination by reading your
posts very carefully here. I am in the exact same boat as you and also have the same issues to overcome so I am not
the enemy here ok? But the way forward here I believe is through the 100% total acceptance about who you really are.

PS: There are members of this forum who suffer more from internalised transphobia than you do and trust
me, they can be more brutal in how they dish out their advice - I really am as gentle as a lamb by comparison.

[Felicity71]

I get harassed by women too, when i go into the toilet and pee, they scream. I cant think why. Maybe its my hairy legs?

[Sophora]

I have never got harassed by women. In fact I have found them to be more supportive. I do however do get harassed by males and they are the ones that usually say something.