bathroom illegal?

[FurPus63]

I've read here before that most of the CD/TG's use the woman's room when out in public. That's what I have been doing and was told it's illegal. Even if it is, I can't imagine being arrested for this. Thoughts?

Paulette

[Phoebe]

I've read here before that most of the CD/TG's use the woman's room when out in public. That's what I have been doing and was told it's illegal. Even if it is, I can't imagine being arrested for this. Thoughts?

Paulette

Paulette,
Check your local and state laws. However are they going to check whether you are a GG? Just go in, do the necessary duties and leave. ;)

[karanne]

I've read here before that most of the CD/TG's use the woman's room when out in public. That's what I have been doing and was told it's illegal. Even if it is, I can't imagine being arrested for this. Thoughts?

PauletteAnd just how would they check? Cavity search to see if you have a vu*va and vag*na behind your la*ia? Can you imagine the lawsuits?

Don't sweat it. Even if you don't pass that well, as long as you go in, do your business, wash your hands and leave without creating a fuss, I wouldn't worry, but then IANAL.

[kimdl93]

So far - six months + and counting, I've yet to have any issues at all. As mentioned above, I've never seen anyone checking and other when I've encountered women they haven't said anything or made any overt expression of disapproval.

[Barbara Ella]

I have to feel that if you go in do your business, wash your hands, and adopt the male attitude while at a urinal, i.e. look straight ahead and dont talk, that you will be fine.

Babes

[EllieOPKS]

I could see where that could really be risky. Imagine if you will, a mother and her child in the restroom and you walk in. No foul intentions meant but if she screams or panics, you could be in trouble big time. And by big time, I mean at minimum being singled out by store security or worse the police.

[AllieSF]

As said above it may depend a lot on where you are living and how liberal or conservative are the people, store and restaurant owners and law enforcement. So, where are you located?

[Stephenie S]

Oh dear. Here we go again.

The thought, or actual occurrence, of this is really kind of silly. When was the last time YOU heard of a screaming mother and child panicking in the lady's room???? Come on now. Think. Be honest. Wouldn't it be in all the papers? This just doesn't happen. It doesn't.

Perhaps because you have no real idea of what it's actually like in a lady's room. They have STALLS. The stalls have DOORS with latches on them that latch from the INSIDE. The toilets (where we women sit down to do our business) are INSIDE these stalls. It's all very private. There is really very little opportunity for all of you perverts to molest poor innocent women and children.

What is far more likely to happen (and what has actually happened) is that a small framed, easily overcome trans woman was assaulted and seriously beaten after she come OUT of the lady's room by two large, bigoted, transphobic customers in a popular fast food outlet (MacDonalds), while other uncaring customers stood by and watched.

Stephie

[Karren H]

It's only illegal if you get caught!! And end up on "Cops"! Or the local news.....

[RADER]

I can see in the future; TSA agents station at every bathroom door, and you walking
through a Xray monitor to see if you have some extra parts. LOL
Rader

[Leslie Langford]

I could see where that could really be risky. Imagine if you will, a mother and her child in the restroom and you walk in. No foul intentions meant but if she screams or panics, you could be in trouble big time. And by big time, I mean at minimum being singled out by store security or worse the police.

This all comes down to how "passable" the CDer is, or failing that, how well she is able to blend in. At worst - and unless she opens her mouth and hasn't yet perfected her feminine voice - the other patrons will simply assume that she is a very masculine looking woman (of which there are plenty) or else a butch lesbian.

Each CDer needs to take a close, hard look in a mirror and be brutally honest with herself as to how passable or blend-able she is under those circumstances, and before deciding to venture into a women's washroom without risking getting any curious looks or negative vibes. If she then feels that she can do this, she can likely safely proceed. As others here have said, no one is going to raise a fuss or attempt to "out" her if there is any doubt as to her true sex, because the deterrent here is that to make any mistake in that regard would come right back at the accuser. Odds are, it wouldn't be a pretty picture for her then, as making a false accusation would land her in deep doggy-do, not to mention a possible harassment charge or civil anti-discrimination legal action. And the security rent-a-cops and the owners of the establishment where the washrooms are located could be dragged into the fray as well.

Of course, if the CDer is of the fetishistic, sissy-maid persuasion, into public humiliation, and dresses in a tutu accessorized with a bustier, garter belt with fishnet stockings, micro-mini skirt, and 6" "f*ck me" stilettos, then all bets are off...

[AllieSF]

Actually Stephanie, a good friend of mine had one of those screaming mothers cause a scene at a chain restaurant near the very liberal city of Berkeley, California across the Bay from the more liberal city of San Francisco. The police got involved and nothing ever happened beyond the husband chasing my friend's car with her and her T friends inside the car out of the parking lot. The police who later contacted my friend told her not to worry because she did nothing wrong. My point here in sharing this story, which was also written up on this site about 3 years ago, is that shit happens everywhere and usually, according to Murphy's Law, when you least expect it. We all need to be mentally prepared for the worse and hoping for the best.

[~Joanne~]

What is far more likely to happen (and what has actually happened) is that a small framed, easily overcome trans woman was assaulted and seriously beaten after she come OUT of the lady's room by two large, bigoted, transphobic customers in a popular fast food outlet (MacDonalds), while other uncaring customers stood by and watched.

Stephie

I also want to add racist to this overall picture which may have been another motive in this case. The two women that did this were seething with hatred none the less.

I did see the video taken in this case and it was absolutely sickening. My heart never went out as much as it did for this girl. I hope they got the book thrown at them and the idiots that stood there filming it thinking it was "cool" did as well. it was not cool by any means.

[Kelli Ca]

Again I would agree don't linger, besides you look good enough for it not to be a big deal

[Stephenie S]

Actually Stephanie, a good friend of mine had one of those screaming mothers cause a scene at a chain restaurant near the very liberal city of Berkeley, California across the Bay from the more liberal city of San Francisco. The police got involved and nothing ever happened beyond the husband chasing my friend's car with her and her T friends inside the car out of the parking lot. The police who later contacted my friend told her not to worry because she did nothing wrong. My point here in sharing this story, which was also written up on this site about 3 years ago, is that shit happens everywhere and usually, according to Murphy's Law, when you least expect it. We all need to be mentally prepared for the worse and hoping for the best.

I was here. I remember that thread and post. Was it actually your friend? I could find no corroborating evidence about it at the time. Did it really happen? Or was it just another urban legend?

Stephie

[brandi.tgurl]

Legally it depends on the laws. Socially, it depends on the individual, and the location the individual is in. At least, I know in California, the enforceable presumption is to use the bathroom for gender you are presenting. However, caution and prudence should be used. This is rather subjective, unless you have actually had reassignment done, or in process of having it done, and followed the appropriate legal processes - because in the end you would still be a male in the female restroom. With this said, if a genetic male CD is dressed and presenting as female (ie mannerisms, walk, dress, potentially talk) it is legally ok to use the female restroom for the purposes of a restroom's design - to go potty, wash-up, or retouch makeup. A female presenting as a male could use the male restroom for generally the same purposes. However, any extra lingering or other use could be interpreted as inappropriate, and could be deemed illegal. On the other hand, if a male CD is presenting as a male, but as one wearing women's clothes (ie beared, wearing a skirt and top), it would be tough to legally say you were passing as a lady. In this case you would be obligated to use the men's room. Either way can be touchy depending on the environment, people (type of people), type and number of families, location, time of day will all factor in when deciding if a bathroom should be used. For example, if at a Starbucks, it could be deemed very appropriate for a CD to use the female restroom - whether presenting as a passable woman, or non-possible one. The reasoning is that Starbucks mostly all have single stall, locking door facilities. Also, CA law allows either genetic or presented sex equal opportunity to use single stall, locking door bathrooms, if that is the only logical option at the time. I'll use Starbucks' womens' rooms even in drag if i need to (and I'm polite enough to clean up after myself). But where a CD who is presenting and passing as a female could use ladies room at a Box store like Best Buy, or restaurant like applebee's during brunch w/o hassle, a CD who is clearly a man in a dress would not be welcomed in the women's room. for the purpose of this topic, (S)he should use the men's room. If this is a busy location, the non passing CD risks harassment in this scenario as the restroom could be filled with non understanding genetic men. Or, upon exiting, a non understanding person could position themself at the bathroom exit. If at a quiet place, the non passing CD may have an opportunity w/o harassment. The safest bet in any location is to find a family bathroom, or a single stall (unisex preferably, or a separated sex) with a locking door. This is also a reason to travel in pairs... if you can't find a place where an acceptable bathroom is available for use, your partner (read friend) could stand outside to ensure you aren't snuck up on, or to warn others that a crossdresser is in the bathroom and to enter at their own discretion. I have read that other states have similar guidance - but few have a protective status like CA does. i'm sure lambda legal has links to the various rules about this.

[brandi.tgurl]

Actually Stephanie, a good friend of mine had one of those screaming mothers cause a scene at a chain restaurant near the very liberal city of Berkeley, California across the Bay from the more liberal city of San Francisco. The police got involved and nothing ever happened beyond the husband chasing my friend's car with her and her T friends inside the car out of the parking lot. The police who later contacted my friend told her not to worry because she did nothing wrong. My point here in sharing this story, which was also written up on this site about 3 years ago, is that shit happens everywhere and usually, according to Murphy's Law, when you least expect it. We all need to be mentally prepared for the worse and hoping for the best.

You don't state for what purpose your friend was using the restroom, but i assume she was a CD presenting as a female, and using the bathroom for its intended purpose, and only that purpose. In this instance, per California, and actually San Francisco County laws, the police would have no legal recourse to cite or detain your friend for her use of the female restroom. The lady and husband (and probably family) were just not tolerant of Stephanie, and called the police as a complaint for being offended, and not understanding the rules of the land.

ps - my rant above states beared... that should read bearded.

[Rachel Morley]

I don't know where you are located but here's what the Transgender Law Center in California told our TG support group, the River City Gems, when we asked.

Quote: "California law prohibits discrimination in public accommodations based upon gender identity. A “public accommodation” is a private entity that owns, operates, leases, or leases to someone, a place of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, retail stores, and other establishments that open their doors to the public.

Under California law, sex includes gender identity and gender expression (Cal. Gov't. Code § 12696) so a person who is a cross dresser would also be protected by the law. Although there is no case on point, Transgender Law Center believes that "full and equal accommodations" means that all women, regardless of their transgender status (CD or TS), are entitled to access the women's restroom in accordance with their gender identity.

There is, however, a "gray area" with regard to this law in that some public accommodations may try to require a person to have ID that matches the gender of the restroom they are using. Transgender Law Center does not believe this is a lawful policy, but if a public accommodation did implement such a policy, it would need to check all individuals' IDs, not just those women it "suspects" are transgender." Unquote

IMHO the only potential caveat I can see is that this law (the California Non-Discrimination Law Cal Gov Code § 12926 specifically, as defined in Section 422.56 (subsection C) of the Penal Code) that prohibits discrimination based on gender identity, appearance and behavior in the areas of employment (public and private), housing, public accommodations, and education, is that I'm thinking that this law applies to people who are identified as "Transgender".

How does the law identify who is and isn't "transgender?" Does it require you to have a therapist and be diagnosed as having GID? or is being transgender defined by self identification based upon a person's internal feelings of their gender identity? In the above I quoted text the Transgender Law Center saying that it believes that "full and equal accommodations" means that all women, regardless of their transgender status (CD or TS), are entitled to access the women's restroom in accordance with their gender identity, but this is what they "believe", no one has tested this distinction in the courts yet. For sure if you are TS, have a therapist etc the law is definitely on your side, but a part-time girl who is a CDer, that self identifies as TG ... I don't think anyone knows how that would hold up in court.

[Jilmac]

I don't know the laws of your state or community but I've never had any problem using the ladies facility. Number one rule though ALWAYS SIT, when finished wash hands and skedaddle. The longer you linger worsens your chances of being outed.

[docrobbysherry]

I don't know where you are located but here's what the Transgender Law Center in California told our TG support group, the River City Gems, when we asked.

Quote: "California law prohibits discrimination in public accommodations based upon gender identity. A “public accommodation” is a private entity that owns, operates, leases, or leases to someone, a place of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, retail stores, and other establishments that open their doors to the public.

Under California law, sex includes gender identity and gender expression (Cal. Gov't. Code § 12696) so a person who is a cross dresser would also be protected by the law. Although there is no case on point, Transgender Law Center believes that "full and equal accommodations" means that all women, regardless of their transgender status (CD or TS), are entitled to access the women's restroom in accordance with their gender identity.

There is, however, a "gray area" with regard to this law in that some public accommodations may try to require a person to have ID that matches the gender of the restroom they are using. Transgender Law Center does not believe this is a lawful policy, but if a public accommodation did implement such a policy, it would need to check all individuals' IDs, not just those women it "suspects" are transgender." Unquote

IMHO the only potential caveat I can see is that this law (the California Non-Discrimination Law Cal Gov Code § 12926 specifically, as defined in Section 422.56 (subsection C) of the Penal Code) that prohibits discrimination based on gender identity, appearance and behavior in the areas of employment (public and private), housing, public accommodations, and education, is that I'm thinking that this law applies to people who are identified as "Transgender".

How does the law identify who is and isn't "transgender?" Does it require you to have a therapist and be diagnosed as having GID? or is being transgender defined by self identification based upon a person's internal feelings of their gender identity? In the above I quoted text the Transgender Law Center saying that it believes that "full and equal accommodations" means that all women, regardless of their transgender status (CD or TS), are entitled to access the women's restroom in accordance with their gender identity, but this is what they "believe", no one has tested this distinction in the courts yet. For sure if you are TS, have a therapist etc the law is definitely on your side, but a part-time girl who is a CDer, that self identifies as TG ... I don't think anyone knows how that would hold up in court.
Yes, that's the law in Cal! Yet, when I asked the employees at Disneyland in SoCal which rest room to use, I was advised in no uncertain terms, if I was caught in a Ladies rest room, I would be throw out! I think picking a rest room when dressed is kind of like sky diving. U do so at your own risk!

[Eryn]

Stephnie, I don't consider going out dressed an exercise in "manning up." The best route to take is that which minimizes the chance of difficulty. A reasonably passable person dressed en femme is far less likely to have a problem with a brief visit to the ladies' room than that same person is walking into the men's room. Do that and you might as well hang a sign around your neck saying "I'm a crossdresser, harass me!"

[Jacqueline Winona]

Sherry, next time you have to go at Disneyland, try to wait until you get to California Adventrue where they have fanily/unisex bathrooms. :)

[Betty M]

I am transgendered and transitioning. At the college that I attend I have been banned from the men's restroom. Security informed me that I MUST use the ladies room. I have been using the ladies room everywhere since then, and have had no problem at all. I just make sure that I sit down!

[brandi.tgurl]

Yes, that's the law in Cal! Yet, when I asked the employees at Disneyland in SoCal which rest room to use, I was advised in no uncertain terms, if I was caught in a Ladies rest room, I would be throw out! I think picking a rest room when dressed is kind of like sky diving. U do so at your own risk!

if this were facebook, i'd "like" this post. ;)

[AllieSF]

I was here. I remember that thread and post. Was it actually your friend? I could find no corroborating evidence about it at the time. Did it really happen? Or was it just another urban legend?

Stephie

Stephie,

Your post confuses me. No, she wasn't and isn't my friend, a cyber ghost told me all about it. I trust that ghost and find no reason to corroborate, nor provide and collaborating evidence about what she said to me. Around here in the SF Bay area, that type of thing normally never ends up in the news, unless a public figure was involved or some big crime was committed. If you do not want to believe it, that is your prerogative. But I must say, I am surprised that you are doubting what I wrote. Why, may I ask? Do you know her? Have you talked with her, or do you just mistrust anyone who says something that does not follow your belief? My statement in this post was to clarify that that type of stuff does happen, not very often and never to me personally after probably over 200 times out using the women's restroom probably 400 plus times (I have to go a lot!), including in theaters, museums, top restaurants, and everywhere else, including 3 days in Las Vegas and a few times out in the Detroit, Michigan area, including at their wonderful museum.

Actually, I am the urban legend and also another cyber CD ghost is writing this thread. If you still doubt what I say, by all means contact me with a PM so as not to detract further from the OP topic. I will hopefully be able to answer all of your questions. Or better yet, come here for a visit and a guided tour from a cyber ghost and I will gladly introduce you to her, if she would want to meet you. Or even better yet, find that old thread and contact her personally. She is still alive and well (I am not sure if she really ever comes here to this site much) and she "really" went out to a play with me last month in Berkeley.

To further clarify, I do not post bullshit here, because that is not how I am, nor how I act.

[NathalieX66]

Check your state laws.
New Jersey it's legal.....the magic two words are gender expression.

[Stephenie S]

Sorry Allie. I meant no offense.

My question was not a challenge, dear. Only a question. I do remember the thread and post and tried to look into it at the time. I understood from your current post that it was a friend of yours. So I asked you about it. That's all. I'm not doubting you.

I was out there around that time (my son lives in Oakland) but that's neither here nor there. I heard about this instance only on CD.com.

Stephie

[AllieSF]

You don't state for what purpose your friend was using the restroom, but i assume she was a CD presenting as a female, and using the bathroom for its intended purpose, and only that purpose.

She was out dressed at a Sizzler Steak House near Berkeley, California with some of her Tfriends. She and her friends had used the restroom before leaving. My friend was the last one out, if I remember correctly, and a mother and her kid or kids came in. I think that my friend was noticed when she came out of the stall. My friend left the restroom and I think that the mother came out yelling for her husband about a tranny in the restroom, or some other words. My friend went out to her car where the other girls were waiting and the man came running out shouting at them. My friend was afraid and just drove off as the husband pounded on her car. The cops came to her house to let her know that everything was OK and not to worry. They probably were called by the irate husband who must have remembered the license plate.

I know my friend and she is an in and out user of the women's restroom when she needs to use it. So, according to her, nothing really happened to cause the commotion other than her being there and the mother didn't like it. I really do not remember all the details. Yes, you are correct that in California a person can use the restroom for the gender for which they are presenting, no questions asked. That does not mean that all people know of those legal rights. Some people without experience of meeting transgendered people may react naturally in surprise, which seems to maybe is the case for the husband's actions, not necessarily what the wife was yelling at him.

[LeaP]

The bigger risk for me would be that *I* would be the one screaming if I caught sight of myself in the mirror!

More seriously, it does depend on the jurisdiction. My therapist offered to write me a letter that I could carry explaining that I'm TG and under treatment for same. She acknowledged, however, that it might help in the case of difficulty ... and might not, too.

Lea

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

I am of the opinion that "when in rome, do as the romans do". I therefore will use the womans restroom while dressed as a woman and be damned to anyone that has a problem with a person acting on the call of nature. Far too many other problems in the world to worry about a CD in the womans bathroom, why can't everyone just give a girl a break!!!!

[ChristineM]

As has been said, check your local laws. In Texas it is unlawful for any person to use a restroom of the opposite sex unless given permission. Incident in Houston (as I believe has been mentioned here before) at a public library.

http://www.dallasvoice.com/watch-transgender-woman-arrested-entering-mens-bathroom-houston-library-1053384.html

As the article mentions the city now has a policy granting permission to all to use the restroom they are presenting as, but this only covers public restrooms. And if you're not aware of it, public means government owned. Everything else is privately owned.

When en femme I use the ladies but I know the possible consequences. Do as others have said, do you business and go.

[patti.jean]

I always use the women’s restrooms and have never had a problem. Last weekend I was at a local coffee shop in downtown Grand Rapids. When I went to use the women’s restroom, which I have done many times in this coffee shop, there was a sign on the door “Out of order, use the men’s restroom.” It made me smile as walked from the women’s to use the men’s restroom, a first for me.

Patti

[Miriam-J]

Okay, I tired of seeing things like "check the laws in your local jurisdiction". Not knowing how to find such things, I looked a bit on the web and found the following:
http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ndlaws/index.htm#restrooms
http://www.tgender.net/taw/restroom.html
http://www.aclu.org/hiv-aids_lgbt-rights/know-your-rights-transgender-people-and-law
In summary, it looks like a very unsettled legal area - and definitely not too promising in Indiana.

Miriam

[Pinky188]

Just pee in the girls room already!!! Just remember to hover!!!

[Chickhe]

I don't understand what would make any law practical...for instance, a father might have to attend the bathroom with his daughter or mother with her son. Would they be acting illegally? And what about the janitor...do they have a special clause in the law, or does a male employee need to clean the men's only?... I think the battle on these silly laws, if they exist, can be won using other common situations. Its just silly... oh, by the way, the ones with a female logo mean...you have to look that way...the ones that say inis and gina you might have a problem, but whos going to check?

[Aprilrain]

I think it should be illegal for a man to use the woman's restroom. I mean seriously, what if I'M in there and the stall lock didnt latch properly and he opens the door just as I'm tucking my penis back in my panties!!!! ; )

[AllieSF]

April, As much as I use the women's restroom, I have worried about that same thing happening to me more than once!

[Kaitlyn26]

I live in a fairly conservative state and have never had a problem. Location isn't everything. Some people are just crappy. I think the mentally ill may be responsible for some of the more horrific tg tales.

[Jessica86]

And just how would they check? Cavity search to see if you have a vu*va and vag*na behind your la*ia? Can you imagine the lawsuits?

Don't sweat it. Even if you don't pass that well, as long as you go in, do your business, wash your hands and leave without creating a fuss, I wouldn't worry, but then IANAL.

Or they could just ask to see your license....which they have a right to do for identification....and look under "sex" to see an M or F.....

I don't see you having an issue with this unless you are in a really small town. Texas is, in my opinion, the most unforgiving place for crossdressers. Not aware of any place where the behavior is actually considered "illegal" here.

[XenaMare]

:battingeyelashes:Me personally , have had NO problem in the rest rooms , I just go in do my bussiness and leave , I make no conversations , I go in and get out , so I must pass as a woman ? :):heehee:

I try to avoid any stall or rest room that dsoes not lock properly . ( Last month went to a convient store/gast station it was old and got my self locked in because the door was damaged can U say panic attack ? ) :sad: Luckily I somehow got out myself after calling 911 and telling them my situation

HERE ! HERE ! :yippee:

[Aprilrain]

Or they could just ask to see your license....which they have a right to do for identification....and look under "sex" to see an M or F.....

Who has the right to ask for ID? Maybe cops, no one else though. even if the cops did ask for ID they would have to set up a a check station at the bathroom and ask to see EVERYONES ID can you imagine the outrage from all the GGs and would they only check IDs at the woman's restroom? or would they check men going in to the mens room as well? I would refuse to show my ID, when they arrested me they would see that i was a female and then I would sue them.

[Cassandra]

I have been going in the women's restroom for over two years now. I am a full time female and have taken hormones and pass very easily. The thing I say is that you need to get caught in order to get busted for it, what are the chances of getting caught though? It depends on how well you pass. I pass well every time so I use the women's restroom, do my business and leave, I don't even think about going in the men's restroom anymore.

[Bree-asaurus]

Who has the right to ask for ID? Maybe cops, no one else though. even if the cops did ask for ID they would have to set up a a check station at the bathroom and ask to see EVERYONES ID can you imagine the outrage from all the GGs and would they only check IDs at the woman's restroom? or would they check men going in to the mens room as well? I would refuse to show my ID, when they arrested me they would see that i was a female and then I would sue them.

All it takes is one ignorant, upset GG to call the cops or security when they see you walk in. I've heard stories like this.

I think separate bathrooms are stupid. But with our current system, if you're legally female, use the women's room. If you're legally male, use the mens. If you pass as the gender you identify as, use the bathroom of your gender.

[RachelRICD]

Here in RI the non discrimination laws for gender expression are very liberal. I use the Ladie's room whenever I am out en femme. At work, however, the policy is that I must use a single use or unisex bathroom per HR. I have never had a problem in a pubic Ladie's room but I agree "go in, do your business, and get out.

[Aprilrain]

"go in, do your business, and get out.

IDK I've had some interesting conversations with other woman in the ladies room. If you're a woman just be yourself, don't act like you belong know you belong.