What do you think?

[Jorja]

Recently, I read an article by a Dr. Barret of Charing Cross in the UK. It was about how he categorized transsexuals as Category A or B.

He says a Category A does not take long to diagnose, Things are very clear cut (they know what they want), and move on with life with no or little problem after GRS.

Category B - Things are not so clear cut, require months of therapy, usually have no regrets after GRS but still feel that their life is on hold and have trouble moving on with life.

As I think about it, he may be correct. I have known several transsexuals over the years. Some of them like myself, seem to know exactly what they want/need and take to the change as if it was a natural part of the process. Others aren’t quite sure about the change and seem to have a hard time adjusting.

Is it a question of self acceptance? Poor understanding of what the problem is? Are they maybe expecting too much? Do they think that the surgeries will “fix” the problem?

What do you think?

[Kerstin]

I don't know much about the different categories, but I would think people don't just fall into two different groups like that so easily. Everyone is going to be different, and sit somewhere along a broad spectrum. Some people are just naturally full of self doubt, or lack motivation, or whatever, and those people will need more guidance. I'm guessing that if someone begin a process whilst uncertainties remain, they might be less satisfied with the consequences.

[Aprilrain]

Interesting. I could see that, though I think any time some ones say black or white they neglect all the shades between. In either case I can say that for me self acceptance is a big struggle which is why I stayed closeted for so many years and I continue to struggle with it though much less than before. I suppose it is a process. A lot of my hardships are related to the life (I use that term loosely) I built as a male, marriage to a woman (ugh), kids with said woman, career choice, etc. Even though I was dying inside no one else knew it and it seemed like everything was "on track". Even if I weren't TS the life I had built wasn't me AT ALL! I'm not a white picket fence sorta girl. The other thing I struggle with a lot are body issues or basically "passing" I can get pretty depressed about what i perceive to be insurmountable obstacles. I know girls who couldn't pass in a room full of deaf and blind people but who seem to be as happy as can be.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's hard to argue with the overall observation, but I'm not a big fan of type A and type B anything..
there is a saying....

There are 2 types of people in the world.. Those that think there are 2 types of people, and those that don't...

However, i find this sentence very compelling..

"Is it a question of self acceptance? Poor understanding of what the problem is? Are they maybe expecting too much? Do they think that the surgeries will “fix” the problem? "

Self acceptance, understanding and expectations are a huge factor in how all this works out.

surgery almost always fixes the "problem"..it doesn't fix all the problems caused by the problem....:doh:

People thinking that ALL their problems are because they are ts that have the most issues post surgery
...its people that think 30,40,50,60 of guilt and shame just go poof that feel anxious and depressed
...its people that expect the world to give a shit that they are women that risk ending up bitter and angry..

[Frances]

From what I have observed over the years, the type B's invested their masculinity to the point where transition will bring about major losses. Months if not years of therapy may be necessary to prepare them for transition. They first have to accept that their lives have been frauds to a certain extent, and stop holding on to what never really was. I am a type B.

[Jorja]

Thanks for sharing that Frances. That does make a lot of sense. I wonder if there are those out there that did not invest in their masculinity to that point and still have the difficulties? I mean I did what I had to do to survive for 23 years before starting my transition.

[Frances]

Thanks for sharing that Frances. That does make a lot of sense. I wonder if there are those out there that did not invest their masculinity to that point and still have the difficulties? I mean I did what I had to do to survive for 23 years before starting my transition.

Sure, but it's usually religious hang-ups or confusion about sexual orientation (family rigidity regarding orientation) that clouds the picture.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Jorja,

Then there or those that are TS or IS that either don't wish or can't afford SRS after transition has taken place which makes up the overwhelmingly majority of transitioned females or males for that matter.

If we do however follow Dr. Barret's categorization of transsexuals as either type A or type B it is my opinion that type B TS/IS people statistically do not transition due to their perceived investment in relationships, career, etc.

Type A's regardless of age and regardless of either perceived or real loss will transition because of the overwhelming feelings to do so.

Regardless of classification the SOC remains as a needed gatekeeper in which to properly diagnose those that are " gifted " with such an affliction.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

From what I have observed over the years, the type B's invested their masculinity to the point where transition will bring about major losses. Months if not years of therapy may be necessary to prepare them for transition. They first have to accept that their lives have been frauds to a certain extent, and stop holding on to what never really was. I am a type B.

I felt this way, but ultimately in my soul i knew that i would reach a point where i'd say "OMG..i wasted my life"...i pictured myself old and grey and thinking of what could have, what should have been...

and that, as they say, was that..

[Frances]

I felt this way, but ultimately in my soul i knew that i would reach a point where i'd say "OMG..i wasted my life"...i pictured myself old and grey and thinking of what could have, what should have been...

and that, as they say, was that..

Same here. I thought of myself going even further as an older man and could no longer take it. I cut my losses and went on with my life. I have no regrets, but a lot of sorrow over what could have been in the past had I transitioned earlier and over what others around me had to cope with. An invested masculinity means more collateral damage. I stopped short of having children however.

[Katesback]

I tend to think that like in all facets of life there are those that do and those that dont. It all boils down to wether you do or you dont.

Katie

[Jorja]

I completely understand not being able to afford SRS. It took me several years to be able to afford it. That and I was not happy with the results I had seen back in the late 70s early 80s. Those results would have been much like mine done in 1990 compared to yours done in 2008 or 2009. The knowledge, skill, and expertise were not there as yet but they were top notch for the time.

Kate, I am not talking about do or do not. I am talking about why do some seem to be able to go through including SRS so easily and move on with life and others have a lot of problems and can't seem to move on.

[Frances]

I tend to think that like in all facets of life there are those that do and those that dont. It all boils down to wether you do or you dont

Type B people still do, but have a harder time at it. I transitioned completely, but can still admit to having a hard time getting to the do. Once I was commited to transition, doing it did not take long. The "trying to avoid it" was the long part, which boils down to self-acceptance really.

[elizabethamy]

The differences throughout life between someone who knew from the moment of early awareness that she should have been born a genetic woman vs. someone who wasn't sure what was wrong in his/her head and took years, even decades, to sort it out, and perhaps never really did fully come to terms with it -- that's just an enormous gulf. To imply that the only types are the courageous vs. the fearful just proves that not everyone can possibly understand the situations of others.

[Badtranny]

some they will and some they won't
and some you just can't tell
some they do and some they don't
for some it's just as well

[LeaP]

Type B people still do, but have a harder time at it. I transitioned completely, but can still admit to having a hard time getting to the do. Once I was commited to transition, doing it did not take long. The "trying to avoid it" was the long part, which boils down to self-acceptance really.

That sounds correct. I've come to appreciate the size of the gulf between realization and acceptance.

Lea

[SuzanneBender]

Why is everything in life binary!? Are you type A or B? Maybe I would like to be a type C or a D. How about a B-.

If I were to subscribe to his categories I would say that I am definitely a B. I think, because I haven't transitioned yet. Viola, I found the type C. However, if I move out of category C, I will definitely be a B.

I envy the type A's and I think several of you are spot on with your assessment of why many of us are type B. It all comes down to loosing what we have vested in our male lives combined with a denial of our self identity. Frances is right. The more we have invested the more damage we cause, but ironically the more time we wait the more collateral damage occurs. Unfortunately, it is not faceless poor souls on the news caught in the aftermath. It is those that we dearly love. Its not an easy choice. Many of us wish that one day we can wake up and the urge that drives us to make the choice has magically disappeared. That day doesn't come and meanwhile we manage to hurt those we love even more.

[Sheren Kelly]

I recal the terms Primary and Secondary Transsexual were used years ago. Primary TS usually present their innate gender earlier, secondary TS usually have some degree of history in their assigned gender before discovering/accepting their innate gender. Between the two are infinite possibilities. The point being that some people know intrinsically they are maasculine or femminine, others take more time to figure things out. Obligations such as marriage and family further complicate the process of self discovery.

[Bree-asaurus]

I recal the terms Primary and Secondary Transsexual were used years ago. Primary TS usually present their innate gender earlier, secondary TS usually have some degree of history in their assigned gender before discovering/accepting their innate gender. Between the two are infinite possibilities. The point being that some people know intrinsically they are maasculine or femminine, others take more time to figure things out. Obligations such as marriage and family further complicate the process of self discovery.

Yes I remember seeing this kind of info randomly as well. It's human nature to try to categorize everything. In certain cases, it works and works well. In some cases like this, it's just pigeonholing people into one of a very few categories when there are really many MANY variations in between. I happen to be inbetween A and B... maybe we should make a category for that, defined down to my specific life struggles and strengths. Hrmm... if we have 10,000 categories, each one for each unique variation of transexual, I think it kind of defeats the purpose.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Why is everything in life binary!? Are you type A or B? Maybe I would like to be a type C or a D. How about a B-.



Why is beyond the scope of this assignment..:heehee:

The gendered world is binary though

...the world does not care even a little bit whether you are a man or woman, but it is a basic assumption that you are one or the other...

some transsexuals don't transition because of "life"..whether its fear of unknown, $$, shame and guilt, religion, perceived or real obligations..it doesn't matter....you end up living your life as the woman trapped in a man's life..which to our binary gendered world makes you a man.. ugh....

[Jorja]

As usual, many are reading in what they want to see in the OP.

Unless you have started transition I do not think you qualify for either of his catagories described because you have not started transition yet. As described he is only talking about those in transition through having had SRS.

Bree, I do agree. I do not like the idea of pigeonholing people. However, for his purposes (whatever they are) it does work.

The only real question here is Why do some make it through the transition period and SRS as if it is a natural part of the process then move on to live a "normal" life and others have problems and can't move forward.

[Bree-asaurus]

As described he is only talking about those in transition through having had SRS.

Well I'll let you know in a few years then :P

[sandra-leigh]

I wonder if there are those out there that did not invest in their masculinity to that point and still have the difficulties?

Oh, you're talking about me again :D

[Inna]

I agree, but also have to ad additional sub categories
Category A Category B
Aa Ba
Ab Bb
Ac Bc
Ac1 Bc1 ................

Well until you come to the Category GG, then things are super clear.........or are they???????

[STACY B]

I dont know about A or B ?? But what happens when ya take A an move them to where B lives an B where A lives do ya think they would be the same as the are now ? Cuz the circumstances are wayyyyyyy different in ALL of them bet ya that . Try this out first ,, FAMILY ,, do ya have em ? Jobs do ya have em ? Friends do ya have em ? Do ya live in the city ? Do ya live in the country ? Was you brought up with suportive parents ? Was you brought up with non suportive parents ? Are you in a relationship that you can afford to be with out ? IIIIIII DUNNO ??? Thats a SLIPPERY SLOPE .. See yall later .

[LeaP]

Unless you have started transition I do not think you qualify for either of his catagories described because you have not started transition yet. As described he is only talking about those in transition through having had SRS.


That doesn't sound right as the categories are applied at the point of diagnosis, per the OP.

Lea

[Frances]

That doesn't sound right as the categories are applied at the point of diagnosis, per the OP.

Lea

Where do you see that?

[LeaP]

Where do you see that?

"He says a Category A does not take long to diagnose, Things are very clear cut ..."

That strongly implies categorization at the point of diagnosis - maybe even earlier.

Lea

[Laurie Ann]

Originally Posted by Katesback
I tend to think that like in all facets of life there are those that do and those that dont. It all boils down to wether you do or you dont
Thank you Yoda

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You can't tell specifically where the idea applies based just on the OP unless you read the whole article..

I think when you step back from it, it can apply to anyone and can be helpful to people thinking about transition that are trying to better understand themselves...


yes...life, facets there are, done there is, and not done there isn't.

[Jorja]

Point well taken Lea, I will have to find out exactly when he is applying his categories.

[LeaP]

Barrett is apparently controversial, as is the Charing Cross clinic. There was a blowup a few years ago wherein a memo from Barrett came to light. I couldn't find a copy of the memo itself, but he is reported to regard transsexuals with contempt and to regard transsexuality as mental illness. Oh well, the categorization being discussed still seems to have some utility ...

Lea

[Jorja]

Yes, I too have been doing some reasearch on Dr. Barrett. I have found he seems to be as controversial as he is well liked and respected. It depends on whom you ask. I would say that is about normal for being the head of a gender clinic.

[Aprilrain]

Though I'm not sure the categories have utility in and of themselves I do think we need more literature out there that covers the realities of older transitioners and or people who don't conform to the "classic" transsexual model. While I certainly don't fault anyone for fitting into the "classic" mold (in fact I'm kinda envious) I do not think they make up the majority of our population. I think the "classic" narrative is probably more a construct of the predominantly male psychiatric community of the 60s and 70s then it is an acurite assesment of the transsexual community. Anyway I think had I stumbled across better information and not met the worst therapist in Cincinnati I would have been better armed with the facts about my condition. Perhaps with better information I would have done this at 30 instead of running back to the closet even more scared and confused than when I came out! It took 4 more years in the presure cooker for me to become done i guess.

[Jorja]

I totally agree with what you said April. I don't know about more time in the pressure cooker though. :)

[Aprilrain]

I totally agree with what you said April. I don't know about more time in the pressure cooker though. :)

Be thankful you had a lower threshold for psychic pain!

[Laurie Ann]

Original post by Kaitlyn Michelle


yes...life, facets there are, done there is, and not done there isn't. When Yoda speaks people listen

[Traci Elizabeth]

This would make sense if there were only TWO transsexuals in the entire world. But I think you can count the number of categories as equaling the total number of us.

[Frances]

This would make sense if there were only TWO transsexuals in the entire world. But I think you can count the number of categories as equaling the total number of us.

Everyone is different, but having spent almost five years in a gender reassignment program of a major hospital (gatekeeping-style) with group sessions every other week, the binary categorization seems fair. I really think it is based on empirical research more than forcing a theoretical model upon a population.

This observation (types A and B) does not dictate a course of treatment. It recognizes the fact that some people will have a harder time at it than others. Judging from testimonials on this forum over the years, it would seem a fair characterization.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Everyone is different, but having spent almost five in a gender reassignment program of a major hospital (gatekeeping-style) with group sessions every other week, the binary categorization seems fair. I really think it is based on empirical research more than forcing a theoretical model upon a population.

This observation (types A and B) does not dictate a course of treatment. It recognizes the fact that some people will have a harder time at it than others. Judging from testimonials on this forum over the years, it would seem a fair characterization.


Fair enough Doctor Francis (meant in a kind humorous way).

[Frances]

Fair enough Doctor Francis (meant in a kind humorous way).

It's Doctor Frances with an "e".

[Bree-asaurus]

It's Doctor Frances with an "e".

Oh look at Ms. Smarty Pants here... "Look at me, I know how to spell... and big words and what 'empirical research' means..."

:D

[Frances]

Oh look at Ms. Smarty Pants here... "Look at me, I know how to spell... and big words and what 'empirical research' means..."

:D

I do have two college degrees (BFA and BA) and English is not my native language.

[Badtranny]

and English is not my native language.

Yet your posts are always clear and cogent. I'm humbled by those that write at least as well as I do in two or more languages while I struggle to grasp only one.