when does Crossdresser become Transsexual if ever

[Inna]

I just read Annies post titled "OMG I am a tranny" and such had tickled an old itch, question which remains a puzzle, is there one continuum of gender trans with stages which have a smooth transition invisible to naked eye or all those categories of gender expression are separate instance and no connection exists.

I have continuously observed girls even here change their rigid stance given enough time. You know the joke what is the difference between a CD and a TS.........couple years :facepalm: I know, I know, shame on me but still funny :lol:

So here is the million milliliter of estrogen question: "Do you believe Crossdressing to be just a stage along the transgender continuum, or is it stand alone, self expression by male with male gender brain and strong feminine side and no denial?????"

[Anna Lorree]

I believe it is a station along the line. Some stop there, and are fine to remain there for decades or even the rest of their lives. Others might stop there and hang out for a while, waiting for the next train. Still others might have gotten on the express rail and just cruise right past it.

There are a lot of reasons why a male gendered person might crossdress. Some get turned on, some like taboos, some are transsexual and just haven't figured it all out yet. None of these reasons are better or worse than the others, none are more or less real and compelling. But, not all are because the person is transsexual. We are all individual, and we all have circumstances that pertain only to us, which compel us to be here. Some will strut around Crossdresser Station in their frilly undies, some will hang out for a while then realize they need to move on, and some just want to get from Point M to Point F as quickly as possible. However, we are all on a similar journey, no matter how many miles we all go.

Anna

[Aprilrain]

when they win the lottery!:heehee:

[Inna]

I must say both are very profound answers :doh:

Oh by the way! rules state that if anyone member wins lotto, she is bound to share all the moneys with their girlfriends here, equally divide!

[Barbara Ella]

I must agree with Anna. It is a station on the live. Some choose to get off at a station before the TS line, others ride it to the end. I wonder where I am. I am a cross dresser, but beyond just wearing women's clothing, I do so enjoy seeing myself in dress and makeup and looking far more feminine than I ever could have believed. It is more than just wearing the clothes, somehow. i dont know what it means. i dont really care, as I love who I am, and where I am at this moment. If there is another train coming along to take me further, so be it. I will only know that when i decide to get on that train. there is nothing smooth about the changes that we go through. Yet, we all go through them, or we choose to stop. Regardless, we are all in this together, so Hugs for everyone.

Babes

[BillieJoEllen]

I always knew I was a girl/woman. CDing didn't interest me until about age 11. Then the connection was made in my mind. Until then I didn't feel real complete.

[ArleneRaquel]

Since the age of 8 0r 9 I knew that I would live at least a part of my adult life as a woman. It's so wonderful, but costly & time consuming.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I'm new to accepting what I am, so I'm far, far from having all the answers. And as you've probably seen, I'm a live in the moment kinda girl and try to see the beauty in every situation. But I just don't see this leading to TS for me. I like to think I know what I am and don't think it's going to change, but I guess we'll see in a few years.

[Katesback]

You threw out a joke so I will. The difference between a CD and a TS is that the CD is married and the TS is not. LOL Seriously I believe a surprising number of CDs are really TS but for 1000 reasons or excuses (married being the biggest one) they choose not to transition.

Funny thing is that when a CD does get divorced my money is on them transitioning.

Yes of course the married CDs are going to chime in and say I am a happy man and husband. Perhaps they are...... now.........

Katie

[whowhatwhen]

My guess is acceptance, but I'm sure that some CDs are happy being men and all of the things that come with being male.
The denial and repression do some funky things, it's 2012 and there will still be people born today that will face the same issues.

[Joanna Maguire]

A Dr told me I have a hormone imballance. I old now. If I were a lot younger I am sure I would have the big op I am not very happy as a man.

[Davena Doll]

I have though about this too. I think the point would be when a person wants to take hormone pills.

[KaTanya]

I'd compare it to happily being an apartmrnt dweller (CD) and buying a house (TS). Buying a house is a life-changing decision requiring major financial and legal investment as well as taking on a lot of future responsibility for maintenece, upgrades, and figuring out what to do when the neighborhood goes to hell in a handbasket.

[Kaz]

Great answers that again explore this strange world. I like Anna's train analogy, but it implies a one way destination with stops on the way. I don't see it that way but rather more like early America. There is this vast continent of possibilities and we find places we like stay a while and some of us move on somewhere else after a while. Sometime we find a place to stay for whatever reason... sometimes for life, sometimes not. Divorce can certainly cause us to re-evaluate and move on again.

In the early days people headed West - so is California TS and Boston straight? I don't think so. TS isn't Nirvana but for many people it is the closest there is.

In my head I dream of being a female sometimes (lots of times!), but I also like being my male side. If I got to the other side would I dream of coming back? Who knows... we are who are and we make choices and 9/10 we aren't happy with the choices because the grass is always greener on some other side.

Some days I'd like to figure out who I really am, but then if I did I may not like what I find! Until then I am on my journey... I just wish I was 30 years younger and had won the lottery! I suspect my choices might have been different! LOL!

[Contessa]

I have a keen sense of humor so i know what is funny. But Katie I think what you said about CDs is true. Married cds just become bi curious unless they either get younger or divorced.

Tess

[IamSara]

You threw out a joke so I will. The difference between a CD and a TS is that the CD is married and the TS is not. LOL Seriously I believe a surprising number of CDs are really TS but for 1000 reasons or excuses (married being the biggest one) they choose not to transition.

Funny thing is that when a CD does get divorced my money is on them transitioning.

Yes of course the married CDs are going to chime in and say I am a happy man and husband. Perhaps they are...... now.........

Katie

I don't alway agree with you Katie but in this case I am a prime example to your comment. If I wasn't married I would have already gone through tranisition.

[mbmeen12]

I am running late for the subway, trying to get to Grand Central station. I know a cab (HRT) is quicker but more expensive and logistically still have issues, so I jump from one train to the next train, bumping into women like you saying good morning. In the mean time, I like the taste, smells and beauty inside of me of taking the slow train. Today I took/taking the CD line with help from my wife, then will catch the HRT subway to Grand Central to come home.

[barbie lanai]

Out of the small sampling of crossdressers (six including me) I've personally known and emailed for years, three decided they are transsexual. And are in various stages of transitioning, from having complete surgery, to orchiectomy, to hormones & T blockers. All claimed to be only crossdressers when I first met them. So looks to me like its a station along the way. Some are just more comfortable staying at the station and missing the train. If I were 55 years younger and know what I know now, I might be on the train. But at this point in my life, doesn't look likely.

[ronda]

yea barbie i agree with you if knew at 18 what i know now i would have taken the express but i did not know what i know now and i would not have wanted to miss the love that i have had in the life that i have had my wife was a wonderful woman that i loved dearly my 6 kids are great and i love them so i guess it all works out good it is your needs that have to be fullfilled

[Kate Simmons]

A lot depends on self perception Inna. For myself the CDing came to be a stand alone type of expression. It's an art form to me among many other things, including being part of my overall self. I can be either male or female, both or neither. The person I am is the main thing.:)

[Julia_in_Pa]

Cross dressers don't become transsexual.
Transsexual's who thought they were cross dressers always were transsexual.
Many transsexuals can and do languish for years under the weight of excuses as to why they cannot transition.
You know who you are here on the forums Ms. Crossdresser.
Your the one who keeps attempting to ignore those " feelings " of needing something more, much more.
You feel trapped by life. Family, house, career, etc.
That's why for years you attempt to convince yourself your just a cross dresser.
I've seen this before many times.
You are going to wake up one day with multiple mental health issues and the panicky feeling that your life has just gone by without you fulfilling what you were born to fulfill.

Tick Tock goes the clock. That feeling that you just got punched in the stomach is your alarm going off telling you it's well past time for you to act.
This is why you see so many late transitioners.
There's nothing wrong with that but imagine if you transitioned when you were in your thirties instead of your fifties.

Life is up to you , the question is are you going to do what you were meant to do.


Julia

[Aprilrain]

Cross dressers don't become transsexual.
Transsexual's who thought they were cross dressers always were transsexual.
Many transsexuals can and do languish for years under the weight of excuses as to why they cannot transition.
You know who you are here on the forums Ms. Crossdresser.
Your the one who keeps attempting to ignore those " feelings " of needing something more, much more.
You feel trapped by life. Family, house, career, etc.
That's why for years you attempt to convince yourself your just a cross dresser.
I've seen this before many times.
You are going to wake up one day with multiple mental health issues and the panicky feeling that your life has just gone by without you fulfilling what you were born to fulfill.

Tick Tock goes the clock. That feeling that you just got punched in the stomach is your alarm going off telling you it's well past time for you to act.
This is why you see so many late transitioners.
There's nothing wrong with that but imagine if you transitioned when you were in your thirties instead of your fifties.

Life is up to you , the question is are you going to do what you were meant to do.


Julia

I believe Julia has hit the nail on the head.

[Laura912]

Some premises: humans are complex; one cannot extrapolate ones behavior to another; cross dressing is a complex behavior. (Sorry, left out the bar graphs and colors for Karren.). It seems then, that the question is answerable only for each individual and not the entire group. For me as an individual at age 70.5, even with hindsight, my station was cross dressing only.

[Joann Smith]

LOL.....got to love Julia !

[Gillian Gigs]

Had I known what I know now, I really don't know how far down the rail line I would have gone. I got off the train at "Whoville" and have been here so long that I have come to enjoy the life in "Whoville". I am not going to go down to the station and wonder what is down the line, maybe it is age that has caused me to loose the spirit of adventure, but if I am at peace with me being in "Whoville", then this is where I will stay. Life has enough regrets, and what if's, without me adding this one also...again. Can't deny that wanting to know what the next station and town are like has not crossed my mind too many times over the years. In "Whoville" I am and in "Whoville" I will stay, no regrets.....now.

[Katesback]

What is kind of funny is that this post was put up an hour ago and it has 271 views. As I have said before I tend to keep it real. If a lot of CDs were NOT TS then they would have no interest in reading about TS stuff but hey 271 hits in an hour says someting.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Cross dressers don't become transsexual.
Transsexual's who thought they were cross dressers always were transsexual.
Many transsexuals can and do languish for years under the weight of excuses as to why they cannot transition.
You know who you are here on the forums Ms. Crossdresser.
Your the one who keeps attempting to ignore those " feelings " of needing something more, much more.
You feel trapped by life. Family, house, career, etc.
That's why for years you attempt to convince yourself your just a cross dresser.
I've seen this before many times.
You are going to wake up one day with multiple mental health issues and the panicky feeling that your life has just gone by without you fulfilling what you were born to fulfill.

Tick Tock goes the clock. That feeling that you just got punched in the stomach is your alarm going off telling you it's well past time for you to act.
This is why you see so many late transitioners.
There's nothing wrong with that but imagine if you transitioned when you were in your thirties instead of your fifties.

Life is up to you , the question is are you going to do what you were meant to do.


Julia

Wow, for some reason your post is really hitting very close to home with me. Not that I might happen to be one of those CD's desperately hanging/clinging on to their male existence.

[Michelle.M]

Seriously I believe a surprising number of CDs are really TS but for 1000 reasons or excuses (married being the biggest one) they choose not to transition.

I think that's very true, but it's not the whole answer.

For many, I'd even guess that even for most of the CDs on this forum, they are simply CD and have no interest in transitioning nor do they see themselves as TS in any way. The problem is that many TS doubt the sincerity of that explanation, and I think that is unnecessarily trans-centric.

Julia Serrano describes some of the prior phases of her transition in such recognizable terms, including a cross dressing period or phase. This is normal, as we who are trying to come to grips with our gender identity frequently attempt a variety of solutions to ease the gender dissonance that, at that time in our lives, does not yet have a name.

The same can be said of other interim steps that, when isolated from the transition process, have their own names. When Chaz Bono was Chastity he (at the time, she) came out as lesbian. But he was not a lesbian, merely a transman who took a step to find relief for gender dissonance using a recognizable and acceptable solution. But it turned out to be incomplete. This is common, and this, I believe, is what gives critics and poorly trained therapists the belief that TS are merely confused homosexuals.

For many, cross dressing and experiments with sexual orientation are among the attempts one makes to make sense of something that may seem incomprehensible. But cross dressing does not have to be an inevitable step towards transition, and many CDs here will emphatically state that they are cisgendered and heterosexual and intend to live their lives that was for as long as they can envision. I think that should be respected.

I think that we also should not make the same mistake and assume that TS are merely CDs who have not yet arrived at the same place as we have.

I can't speak for others, but I never identified myself as CD. I never dressed for the reasons that I hear CDs on this forum give for their cross dressing, which are many. For me, it's not a hobby, it's not merely an expression of my gender duality, I don't get a thrill from putting on women's clothing (all of which are acceptable reasons to CD). I am simply getting dressed, and the choice of wardrobe, like other steps in transition, helps to bring my physical image in line with the image in my soul.

[Nicole Brown]

This is a truly interesting and sometimes perplexing question which I can only attempt to answer for myself. First, I do not believe that this is a one way journey, personally, I have found myself traveling forward and backward at different times in my life. I have always known that I will eventually live at least part of my life as a woman, the big question for me is when will this begin.

I have traveled this path for over 60 years, and as some have already stated, I most likely would have begun transition over 40 years ago had I not married and had children. The desire to follow what for me is my true path, has always been a constant which has been overpowered by family and responsibilities many times. Now that the children are grown and out on their own and there is very little left to the marriage, there is little left refraining me form transiting to who I know I am meant to be.

So, for me, I have been a crossdresser, accept that I am transsexual, and at any given point in time fall somewhere under the umbrella of being transgendered. My therapist has already confirmed this and provided me with my GID letter. I definitely do not fit into the 2 year time frame for moving from CD to Transgendered, but definitely fit in. With just a little bit of luck, I will relocate and move into my own place and formally begin my transition prior to the end of this year.

[Miriam-J]

I can't possibly speak for the TS community, but I think some others have done so quite elegantly already (especially Julia and Michelle). I can only speak for myself, and perhaps this will ring true for many others who are also crossdressers.

I cherish my life as a guy and would never want to give it up. This isn't to mollify my wife, family, or co-workers, but because I really enjoy going through most of my life presenting and acting as a guy. Yet there's a minority part of me that thoroughly enjoys the time that I express myself as a gal as well, and looks forward to sharing with others in this role.

I already express myself in many roles in life. I have been and am a father, brother, son, husband, engineer, neighbor, friend, scout leader, singer, restaurant patron, shopper, student, teacher, boss, colleague, and ... myself, whatever that is. I present and reveal myself differently in each of these roles to those around me. I'm still the same person in every case. My presentation as a gal just adds another set of roles to express.

I can accept the set of roles that are collectively categorized as "crossdresser" as an endpoint, with no need or desire to ever "move forward" to life as a transsexual. I expect that others would agree.

Miriam

[LeaP]

You know the joke what is the difference between a CD and a TS.........couple years I know, I know, shame on me but still funny

So here is the million milliliter of estrogen question: "Do you believe Crossdressing to be just a stage along the transgender continuum, or is it stand alone, self expression by male with male gender brain and strong feminine side and no denial?????"

Sometimes it's a wee bit longer than 2 years, like 50 or so.

The continuum isn't. It's more complex than that. So while I fully agree with Julia and others that many transsexuals often identify as one thing or another on their paths to self-realization, I doubt that most crossdressers are transsexual.

Michelle mentioned Julia Serano. She posits a matrix of both intrinisic and environmental factors covering intrinsic sex, gender role, gender expression, physical factors, and other considerations. If you accept that, it's perfectly plausible to have a crossdresser who absolutely has a male identity (intrinsic sex), but a drive toward female expression. I.e., the stereotypical, adamantly male CDer so often seen on this site. Alternatively, blends of factors and infinite variety, which also fits the self-description of many on the site and a bit closer to your (Inna's) continuum.

Lea

[Michelle.M]

I can't possibly speak for the TS community, but I think some others have done so quite elegantly already (especially Julia and Michelle). I can only speak for myself, and perhaps this will ring true for many others who are also crossdressers.

I cherish my life as a guy and would never want to give it up. This isn't to mollify my wife, family, or co-workers, but because I really enjoy going through most of my life presenting and acting as a guy. Yet there's a minority part of me that thoroughly enjoys the time that I express myself as a gal as well, and looks forward to sharing with others in this role.

I already express myself in many roles in life. I have been and am a father, brother, son, husband, engineer, neighbor, friend, scout leader, singer, restaurant patron, shopper, student, teacher, boss, colleague, and ... myself, whatever that is. I present and reveal myself differently in each of these roles to those around me. I'm still the same person in every case. My presentation as a gal just adds another set of roles to express.

I can accept the set of roles that are collectively categorized as "crossdresser" as an endpoint, with no need or desire to ever "move forward" to life as a transsexual. I expect that others would agree.

Miriam

Well said, Miriam!


Sometimes it's a wee bit longer than 2 years, like 50 or so.

The continuum isn't. It's more complex than that. So while I fully agree with Julia and others that many transsexuals often identify as one thing or another on their paths to self-realization, I doubt that most crossdressers are transsexual.

Michelle mentioned Julia Serano. She posits a matrix of both intrinisic and environmental factors covering intrinsic sex, gender role, gender expression, physical factors, and other considerations. If you accept that, it's perfectly plausible to have a crossdresser who absolutely has a male identity (intrinsic sex), but a drive toward female expression. I.e., the stereotypical, adamantly male CDer so often seen on this site. Alternatively, blends of factors and infinite variety, which also fits the self-description of many on the site and a bit closer to your (Inna's) continuum.

Lea

Yes! The closer we cling to the gender binary the more difficult it is to accept that a cross dresser can be cisgendered and heterosexual. That we, as transgender people, perpetuate that is baffling to me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...

Funny thing is that when a CD does get divorced my money is on them transitioning.



That was my story...cd cd cd...divorce...uh oh...

if you are looking at your own life, i'd urge you to consider the simple question of why you are dressing the way you do.. you are either transsexual or not...you don't "become" a transsexual...you "are" a transsexual (or not)...

The self denial of being transsexual is amazingly powerful in my experience..both in my own life and others... one of the cliches in the ts world is getting your "bell rung" ...i wish it were less true.. but to me its more like letting your guard down for that one sliver of one moment...usually brought on by some event..

one thing that happens many times is that you are getting older, and the commitments keep coming, and there is a final straw..a job change, an ultimatum, a marriage issue..and you realize you have been digging this hole, deeper and deeper into a pretend male life...and you realize you just can't do it anymore... and then you realize how totally f**'d you are, and how there seems like no way to resolve the situation

so you either keep trying to deny it, or you do something about it, or you kill yourself..

if i sound stark, its because it is stark..

[Michelle.M]

That was my story...cd cd cd...divorce...uh oh...

if i sound stark, its because it is stark..

Nope! I think you hit the nail right on the head.

[kittypw GG]

This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

[LeaP]

This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

With all due respect to your belief, you are reading the thread selectively. Julia in particular said no such thing.

Lea

[Marleena]

This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

Ummm.. just no! Only a minority here are TS. The majority here are crossdressers. They are GM's with a female personna they enjoy when needed. They prefer to be male.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Kitty, I read Julia's post differently as well. I think she is absolutely right that CD's don't become transexxuals, and that if you're TS you always have been, the CD is a stop on the way for TS's. But she wasn't saying every CD is a TS, or that every CD will become one.

[Jenniferathome]

Crossdressing is just coincident to transgenderism. There is no cause an effect. A transgender person may be a crossdresser but a crossdresser is not necessarily. It's like humor. If someone is witty, they are smart and funny. But someone can be funny without being smart. Crossdressing isn't a phase. I am a crossdresser and will never be more, or less, than that.


This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

Kitty, you are wildly wrong. Any SO should NOT think it is inevitable. It's not. I am sorry you have reached this conclusion,but you have wrongly done so.

[Sandra]

Cross dressers don't become transsexual.
Transsexual's who thought they were cross dressers always were transsexual.


You have just described Nigella to a t :) took her years to realise this but got there eventually



This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.


You are wrong not everyone is a transexual.

[Michelle.M]

This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

Then you need to go back and re-read the thread. This thread confirms no such thing, and I think you're cherry picking words and phrases to support your own agenda.

Hate to be so harsh, but it's this very attitude that suppresses gender-variant freedoms and promotes trans-misogyny.

[Jenniferathome]

What is kind of funny is that this post was put up an hour ago and it has 271 views. As I have said before I tend to keep it real. If a lot of CDs were NOT TS then they would have no interest in reading about TS stuff but hey 271 hits in an hour says someting.

Kate, that is not the proper read on this. Crossdressers, like myself, want the truth about crossdressing presented, not the myths. We are not gay, we are not transexuals in denial, we are not perverts, etc....

[kittypw GG]

Ummm.. just no! Only a minority here are TS. The majority here are crossdressers. They are GM's with a female personna they enjoy when needed. They prefer to be male.

I disagree. All you have to do is read the threads in the MTF section or know a few in person. I have been around this community a long time and have been privy to the confessions from crossdressers. Confessions about wanting to live full time female, wanting to be with a man, if they were not married they would live the life they really want, etc. This is my opinion from my personal experience. I think it's about time someone speaks honestly about it. So's would not suffer so much if all the cards were put on the table from the beginging. So's have to really absorb the truth when it is presented as well. Perhaps Julia's wife would not have abandonded the relationship or perhaps not have promised something she could not follow through with if the truth was faced honestly. I am not making a judgement on the trans community, it is what it is and I'm glad people are speaking honestly aobut it. My perspective is obviously from the non cd perspective and I know how easy it is to not want to face the truth. I truly think that so's only get let in on the tip of the iceburg. Hundreds of you have said as much. Please don't fault me for having an opinion different than yours.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Janice, your absolutly correct. CD'ing for many TS women equates to a numbing agent for the swell of underlying feelings that at the time either cannot or will not be dealt with.



Kitty, I read Julia's post differently as well. I think she is absolutely right that CD's don't become transexxuals, and that if you're TS you always have been, the CD is a stop on the way for TS's. But she wasn't saying every CD is a TS, or that every CD will become one.

[Marleena]

I disagree. All you have to do is read the threads in the MTF section or know a few in person. I have been around this community a long time and have been privy to the confessions from crossdressers. Confessions about wanting to live full time female, wanting to be with a man, if they were not married they would live the life they really want, etc. This is my opinion from my personal experience. I think it's about time someone speaks honestly about it. So's would not suffer so much if all the cards were put on the table from the beginging. So's have to really absorb the truth when it is presented as well. Perhaps Julia's wife would not have abandonded the relationship or perhaps not have promised something she could not follow through with if the truth was faced honestly. I am not making a judgement on the trans community, it is what it is and I'm glad people are speaking honestly aobut it. My perspective is obviously from the non cd perspective and I know how easy it is to not want to face the truth. I truly think that so's only get let in on the tip of the iceburg. Hundreds of you have said as much. Please don't fault me for having an opinion different than yours.

That's fine Kitty you really need to find the facts on it though. You are welcome to your point of view. :)

[Miriam-J]

My perspective is obviously from the non cd perspective and I know how easy it is to not want to face the truth. I truly think that so's only get let in on the tip of the iceburg. Hundreds of you have said as much. Please don't fault me for having an opinion different than yours.

Opinions are valued, but not so much when they essentially call the heart-felt thoughts of others to be self-deceptive or insufficiently considered (or worse). I and others have expressed quite carefully that we are very comfortable with a point that does not move on to transsexualism. Perhaps the population sample in your own experience has not been sufficiently random to support an assumption of full knowledge in this area.

Miriam

[Julia_in_Pa]

I wish more than anything on this earth that my ex wife would have kept her promises to me.
She did not. As you said if she would have approached her true feelings in a fully honest fashion then I could have avoided all the heartache and pain by not marrying her to begin with.




I disagree. All you have to do is read the threads in the MTF section or know a few in person. I have been around this community a long time and have been privy to the confessions from crossdressers. Confessions about wanting to live full time female, wanting to be with a man, if they were not married they would live the life they really want, etc. This is my opinion from my personal experience. I think it's about time someone speaks honestly about it. So's would not suffer so much if all the cards were put on the table from the beginging. So's have to really absorb the truth when it is presented as well. Perhaps Julia's wife would not have abandonded the relationship or perhaps not have promised something she could not follow through with if the truth was faced honestly. I am not making a judgement on the trans community, it is what it is and I'm glad people are speaking honestly aobut it. My perspective is obviously from the non cd perspective and I know how easy it is to not want to face the truth. I truly think that so's only get let in on the tip of the iceburg. Hundreds of you have said as much. Please don't fault me for having an opinion different than yours.

[Marleena]

I have always read that any MTF TS person must live as a female for one year before SRS commences which could be concluded as crossdressing. I though it was a necessity based on health care procedures. Anybody with facts can feel free to correct me.:)

I also believe (maybe mistakenly) that many TS girls start out as crossdressers before discovering the truth which may lead one to believe many crossdressers are actually TS girls in waiting.

[Michelle.M]

Janice, your absolutly correct. CD'ing for many TS women equates to a numbing agent for the swell of underlying feelings that at the time either cannot or will not be dealt with.

My point exactly!


I have always read that any MTF TS person must live as a female for one year before SRS commences which could be concluded as crossdressing. I though it was a necessity based on health care procedures. Anybody with facts can feel free to correct me.:).

No. The main difference is that at the end of the day the CD changes clothes and resumes his regularly scheduled cisgendered life. For the TS this IS our life! This is not something we do, it's what we are. A TS wearing women's clothing is no more a cross dresser than a GG wearing women's clothing. It's not a pastime, it's just our daily clothing.


I also believe (maybe mistakenly) that many TS girls start out as crossdressers before discovering the truth which may lead one to believe many crossdressers are actually TS girls in waiting.

That is a typical experience of many who have posted in this thread.

[Marleena]

No. The main difference is that at the end of the day the CD changes clothes and resumes his regularly scheduled cisgendered life. For the TS this IS our life! This is not something we do, it's what we are. A TS wearing women's clothing is no more a cross dresser than a GG wearing women's clothing. It's not a pastime, it's just our daily clothing.

Thanks.. just looking for a line of reasoning why one would think the majority of CD are actually TS.

[Michelle.M]

Thanks.. just looking for a line of reasoning why one would think the majority of CD are actually TS.

You know, that's an excellent question to consider. I think in some cases it's lack of information, in some cases it's anti-trans bias or ignorance.

I wish more people would ask probing questions like you just did! :)

[whowhatwhen]

Confirmation bias?
If a GG just finds this site and looks through some posts which could be seen as a CD actually being TS then that may affirm what they already believe.

A few friends and a small forum on the internet aren't a big enough sample size to say all CDs are TS.
Unless anyone with more Science! wants to correct me.

[Katesback]

Kitty I think your wrong about CDs. A lot are TS yes but its not known how many are. Others are not and so we just have to be clear!






Thanks.. just looking for a line of reasoning why one would think the majority of CD are actually TS.

[Rianna Humble]

I have always read that any MTF TS person must live as a female for one year before SRS commences which could be concluded as crossdressing. I though it was a necessity based on health care procedures. Anybody with facts can feel free to correct me.:)

I'm sorry, Marleena, you couldn't be further from the truth here. By the time that we come to the Real Life Experienceofliving 24/7 as the woman that we know ourselves to be, we have already tried the cross-dressing as a coping mechanism and found it inadequate.

I gave up cross-dressing the day that I started my RLE.


I also believe (maybe mistakenly) that many TS girls start out as crossdressers before discovering the truth which may lead one to believe many crossdressers are actually TS girls in waiting.

Some MtF TS, try to delude themselves that they are men who like to cross-dress. Others, like me, try it as a coping mechanism to avoid the inevitable. In this latter case it is most often doomed to fail because we are not men.


This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

I hope that many SO's of cross-dressers do read this thread, but that they come up with a different conclusion to yours.

There is a big difference between a woman, born in the wrong body, but trying to use cross-dressing as a coping mechanism on the one hand and true MtF cross-dressers who are men wishing to dress some of the time as a woman.

I appreciate that from the outside, the symptoms seem to be similar, but the root causes could not be more different.

I have been quite dismayed by the contributions of certain people in this thread who should know better than to try to muddy the waters as they have done.

Some who (apparently for their own amusement) have tried to insist that most CD's are just TS in denial regularly post in another place that they do not believe even half of us who know ourselves to be TS. Apart from amusement at muddying the waters, I'm not sure what they seek to gain by their contributions to this thread.

[Lyric]

I have seriously studied this subject for several decades and can say without doubt that all males who wear women's clothes are not necessarily transsexual. This train of thought stems from a tendency many people have of wanting to believe others are similar to themselves. In fact, there are even many distinct types of "crossdressers" as well as different categories of transsexuals. Nature loves diversity, but society does not. The same sort of narrow mindedness that causes many people to look down upon transgendered persons seems to have effect within the transsexual/crossdresser community as well.

Personally, I know exactly what I am and it is not transsexual, but it is just as valid as transsexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality.

Lyric

[Annette Todd]

I don't like categories.
I don't believe wanting to express a feminine side means you're Bi or gay. Personally I have no attraction to other males.
I do what I do for me!
I also am not ashamed of being straight sexually.
Maybe your reading railroad holds most passangers. Thanks anyway but I'll drive.

If this sounds too blunt, sorry.
Just paying my 2 cents.

Cheers

[Katesback]

Sweety I never said that all crossdressers were TS in denial. I NEVER said CDs were gay. Finally I NEVER said they were perverts. I am not sure how you can even deduct that.



Kate, that is not the proper read on this. Crossdressers, like myself, want the truth about crossdressing presented, not the myths. We are not gay, we are not transexuals in denial, we are not perverts, etc....

[Marleena]

What is comforting to see is acceptance and help from parents for the younger kids that identify as TS. Hopefully it will continue so these kids don't have denial and repress their feelings like what has happened in earlier generations. A lot of emotional pain can be relieved and avoided for these kids.

[whowhatwhen]

What is comforting to see is acceptance and help from parents for the younger kids that identify as TS. Hopefully it will continue so these kids don't have denial and repress their feelings like what has happened in earlier generations. A lot of emotional pain can be relieved and avoided for these kids.

You would hope so, but ignorance is still going to break a few more generations. (http://tumblinfeminist.tumblr.com/post/10840807913/ivyblossom-please-dont-confuse-me-im-a)

Expect more, lots more.

[LeaP]

I disagree. All you have to do is read the threads in the MTF section or know a few in person. I have been around this community a long time and have been privy to the confessions from crossdressers. Confessions about wanting to live full time female, wanting to be with a man, if they were not married they would live the life they really want, etc.

This is clearer to me now. One of the running themes on the site is differences between CDers and TSs as regards the fantasy component on the crossdressing side (as the TS members would put it). Thus you have threads like "would you", "do you ever think about", "what would make you", etc. The TS topics are more typically rooted in the here and now and what they ARE or WILL be doing. I'm not implying that one is better than the other. There's simply a completely different mindset involved. A GG might be rightfully concerned about their SO's fantasy life, but these don't make them transsexual any more than a woman who has rape fantasies REALLY wants to be raped. The vast majority of crossdressers would run from the reality and the vast majority of the transsexuals aren't interested in the fantasies.

Lea

[Lorileah]

when they win the lottery!:heehee:

I agree in part with that and IF I would win the lottery, it may sway my feelings at this time. However I also have the contentment with how I am right now.:confused:. I know tat does not make sense but on this train we are talking about, right now the major station you speak of (TS) is just not on my itinerary. It was (or would have been if I could have afforded the ticket and the destination was as good as it is now 30 years ago).

However I don't think the majority here ever aspire to your holy grail. The majority here are satisfied with what they have as far as physicality. IF you are TS you are TS from birth. It is not an upgrade. To paraphrase Sondheim "When you're a TS, you're a TS all the way
from your first desire to your last dyin' day." I don't think you change to become a TS. You is or you isn't. And all the TS's here cannot convert the CD's, GQ's, TV's, DQ's to join the club. I don't see this as a journey. The TS's here may have made it a journey though because they had to come to grips with the facts. And they may have tried to fit a lifestyle that they were not supposed to be in. Most subgroups do that. Gays try often to be straight. Tomboys may try and be prom queens. Even the Amish try the new world for awhile. And in most cases they return to what feels right. Silk purse: sows ear.

We are not any one thing. We are a rainbow so to speak. It is not a continuum.

[Inna]

As I had read all the replies, I tend to start seeing transgenderism and all its inclusive plateaus in less linear fashion. Said that, all the fractions are intertwined with each other by common thread and overlap in some points and do not in other. However a bigger question which I seek answer to as to CD becoming TS seems closer at hand, however I stress, I am in no way implying nor forcing this assumption on the public at hand.

I believe that instead of smooth transition brought forth by final upheaval, a stressful instance bringing an individual to a decision, such eureka of self affirmation comes as a shocking and critical cross over to the never never land of what dreams are made of and let life take me instead of I will do it my way.

By my own experience, I had come to crossroads of existence, I could no longer tolerate living and so 2 choices remained, inevitable, both were sort of end of life as we know it, with one of them being more of a literal then other.

Well, I am still writing this post so the choice was obvious but I did chose truth over deceit, pain over comfort, unknown over deceitful feeling of being loved and belonging.

I can honestly say that such decision would have NEVER happened did I not come to this grave place of decision. Have I had a better understanding wife, a better economical stance I would go on, and that is absolutely definite, Still CDing and feeling femininity through such expression.

What this thunderstorm of emotions did for me was a realization that I live in the world of pretend, imaginary in every way possible, in a glass bubble and CDing was one only real instance to touch truth to allow love to flow through my broken heart.

So without any choice as to go on in status quo, I only made one step I could, and that was to go and embrace TS as my road map. Slowly then I started to see more clearly how deceitful my thinking was when in denial, I no longer feared rejection, I no longer felt word Transsexual was dirty, I no longer was hiding behind the facade of wrong unfitting AVATAR, I was free to be whom I always been but denied it and sent to the abyss of unconscious.

[kittypw GG]

I wish more than anything on this earth that my ex wife would have kept her promises to me.
She did not. As you said if she would have approached her true feelings in a fully honest fashion then I could have avoided all the heartache and pain by not marrying her to begin with.

Your experience certainly proves that it works both ways. You were always up front about yourself and were "duped" because your wife could not be honest about her feelings until your transition was in her face. That is when she faced the reality of what she promised. It is equally destructive when a gg so hides her feelings and goes along with things she is uncomfortable about hoping it will go away. I can relate to your pain Julia.

[Being Paige]

Kate / Julia.

OMG that is me :(. I may never live the life that I want to live, and I know that I am more then just a cross dresser. I may just struggle with this for the rest of my life.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Paige,

I understand all too well.
stay strong.



Julia

[sandra-leigh]

You are going to wake up one day with multiple mental health issues and the panicky feeling that your life has just gone by without you fulfilling what you were born to fulfill.

I think that happens to a lot of people anyhow.

Over the last 20 years, my close friends have mostly married, had children, and worked at a variety of important technical positions at some of the top technical companies in the world. Meanwhile, I am common law, no children, and been stuck in the same work for 20 years, in an organization whose rules do not allow for me to be promoted no matter how good I am. No travel or training or conferences for me either. Oh, and I would get in trouble if I were to take post-grad courses at night, as it would be assumed that I was working on those while I was supposed to be working. The city I live in is 1000km each from the nearest city of comparable size in the same country.

So long before I realized I had gender issues, I was already feeling isolated and "passed by", "stuck", life "on hold", unfulfilled, not doing what I was born to do.

The gender issues... well, they don't make the situation any easier, that's for sure. But I do know that transitioning as TS would not solve a single one of those other issues.

[ImAlexis]

Fine... I'll be the one to take the medical/psychological route. Note: I'm going to use some terms that people will find insulting, cold, and detached. It's not my purpose or intention to use certain words in a judgmental fashion.

Cross dressing is the act of dressing of the other gender, and can be used as a description for those that do so but don't fall into any other category. It can be done for many reasons, from life style to neuropsych* disorder (gender dysphoria, etc).

TS/TG are individuals who's gender (which yes, is a spectrum) does not match their phenotypic sex** (outward appearance) to the point of causing distress that affects their everyday functioning. While CDing can be a lifestyle choice, I do not believe someone would go to the length of medications and surgery because they made a choice to be the opposite gender. While, yes, the concept of gender dysphoria as a disorder can, has been, and is used to promote discrimination, the disorder part comes from the distress caused, which decreases quality of life.

Do TS/TG individuals cross dress? Yes. However I would not call a TS/TG a crossdresser because it isn't a lifestyle choice that can simply be turned off.

*I personally like the term "neuropsych" since it incorporates the concept of structural and functional causes of psychatric disorders.

**Sex can be divided up into genetic sex (XX and XY being the normal states), gonadal sex (ovaries or testicles), and phenotypic sex (outward appearance). Gender dysphoria would a discordance between phenotypic sex and gender, whereas an individual with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (where they lack the receptor for the type of testosterone responsible outward appearance and secondary sexual characteristics) would not be a TS, despite their genetic and gonadal sex not matching up with their phenotypic sex and gender (they are XY, they have undescended testicles, but look, develop, are raised, and generally accept being a female).

[Julia_in_Pa]

Alexis,

I'm not meaning to brow beat you here but being TS is not a lifestyle choice.
That implies that it was the transsexual woman's decision to be TS.
Since transsexual and intersexed conditions are considered medical it is a medical need and not a choice.



Julia

[ImAlexis]

Let me clarify something because I never meant to say or imply (I can't see the former, can see the latter in my post) that TS/TG is a life style choice.

Cross dressing as an act = multiple reasons, which can include lifestyle.

Cross dresser as a label for an individual = lifestyle.

TS/TG = Discordance between phenotypic sex and gender = not a lifestyle choice.

[Bree-asaurus]

Cross dressers don't become transsexual.
Transsexual's who thought they were cross dressers always were transsexual.
Many transsexuals can and do languish for years under the weight of excuses as to why they cannot transition.
You know who you are here on the forums Ms. Crossdresser.
Your the one who keeps attempting to ignore those " feelings " of needing something more, much more.
You feel trapped by life. Family, house, career, etc.
That's why for years you attempt to convince yourself your just a cross dresser.
I've seen this before many times.
You are going to wake up one day with multiple mental health issues and the panicky feeling that your life has just gone by without you fulfilling what you were born to fulfill.

Tick Tock goes the clock. That feeling that you just got punched in the stomach is your alarm going off telling you it's well past time for you to act.
This is why you see so many late transitioners.
There's nothing wrong with that but imagine if you transitioned when you were in your thirties instead of your fifties.

Life is up to you , the question is are you going to do what you were meant to do.


Julia

Totally agree.

Crossdressers don't become transexual.

Some transexuals may THINK they are crossdressers for a while as they continue to repress their true identity.

I've known transexuals that never crossdressed and never wanted to until they actually began transitioning.

[StephanieC]

I think I lean towards Julia's point on this: TS who CDed may have already been TS. However, at the time, people don't always know where they are much less where they are going. This may be denial but it may also be a genuine lack of knowledge that a certain direction is possible. It may be many years before a person realizes they are actually on a journey and cannot fully apprehend the destination until they arrive.

However, I will say this: at some point between CD and TS, I think people make a conscious decision. At that point, they realize where they are and what may be possible and deliberately make actions to go in whichever direction is preferable. I think hormones or other body changes are such indicators. For example, the CDer who really likes to dress up and show off their legs may find that hormones cause a growth in the thighs. So those long skinny legs don't look quite the way they once did. Depending on how they react to that realization, they may find they have self-identified with the CD or the TS and determined which direction they prefer the journey to take.

Now I'm not advocating experiments. I'm only saying that sometimes it's the reaction to little decisions along the way that help us to define who we are and where were are going. But the direction and speed are not always known. Sometimes it is the unexpected, unpredictable things that happen along the way that help us to define and reach our destination.

-stephani

[Kathy Smith]

Inna,
I don't believe that a CD becomes a TS at all. It may work the other way round though. A "normal" (ha ha!) CD has no interest in becoming female, just appearing to be so. However, a TS might go through a CD stage wanting to be female. Just my 0.02 thingiesworth.

[Gillian Gigs]

Sorry, but some of this sounds like, "I can piss up the wall higher than you can". Or I'm right and your wrong. I don't care what name you want to put on it, all I want is to be at peace with myself. I have found my place of peace and that is where I will stay, only you can find your place of peace, no one can find it for you. Life is a journey, so start enjoying it in whatever way you can.

[celeste26]

Actually all this "category talk" is so male thinking. Gives me a headache. Does that mean I'm TS?

[STACY B]

CLICK,,, CLACK,,, CLICK,,,CLICK,, :D :D :D It was just me sneaking out !!!

[Anne2345]

Crossdressers don't become transexual.

Some transexuals may THINK they are crossdressers for a while as they continue to repress their true identity.

:straightface:

Denial and suppression can be wickedly powerful and persuasive bedfellows, clouding the soul, obfuscating identity, and deceiving and concealing the true self.

[ArleneRaquel]

Anne,
You are so right. It seems that all of your posts.thread started are right on.

[Bree-asaurus]

Actually all this "category talk" is so male thinking. Gives me a headache. Does that mean I'm TS?

How are headaches and being transexual even remotely related? lol...

Categorization is human nature, not male nature.

It's easy, do you fit the definition or not? OMG LABELS!!!!

Oh no oh no! I can't be described by a label because... because... the world will end!!!! Don't you pigeon hole me with labels, I'm not female! I'm not human! I'm not a carbon-based life form! I'm not a collection of molecules! I'm just ME!!!! WAAHAHHHHH

:D

If you don't care who you are and are just being yourself, that's totally cool. But some people HAVE to define who they are, because they need that label to live within this system so THEY CAN BE THEMSELVES. I can't just walk around saying "I'm not transexual, I'm not this, I'm not that. I'm just me! Oh, but please prescribe me hormones! Please allow me to change my gender so I can live my life as my true identity! Please let me get SRS so I don't have to live with this incorrect body!"

If you don't need to and don't want to label yourself, hurray for you. But respect that some people HAVE TO to survive.

[whowhatwhen]

I've known transexuals that never crossdressed and never wanted to until they actually began transitioning.

That's interesting actually, did she give a reason why?

[WendyH]

To quote Bob Dylan, "I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them." I was told 15 years ago by a transsexual that I would eventually get over my denial and start transitioning. Hasn't happened yet, but that sort of condescending attitude has always irritated me. While my dressing is very much an expression of my gender identity, it's complex and for me it seems that transition to full-time woman would create more problems than it would solve. I have some gender dysphoria but only occasionally, and not overwhelmingly so. Aside from too much body hair, I don't have a problem with my male body. I don't strongly identify as either a man or a woman. I'm me...and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. :)

[Bree-asaurus]

That's interesting actually, did she give a reason why?

I knew two people that never crossdressed. They just didn't care. Being a girl isn't about the cloths and they just... didn't care. I don't know what else to say lol.

Maybe they had other outlets for their identity while they were repressing who they were, or maybe they did a better job of repressing than I did. I spent a lot of time alone so I wouldn't have to pretend to be a guy. I would also crossdress. Those were the two ways I could relax and be myself but I could still repress everything else and pretend I was just a normal boy/guy.

[Samantha43]

I'm kinda late to the thread and haven't been here for a while, but I'll throw in my :2c: worth.

I am in my late 40's and consider myself a crossdresser. I have read in this thread several times that if CD's could go back in time, they may have made different decisions. I have wondered the same thing over the years and can only speak from my own experiences.

I met my best friend when I was barely 19 and in college. We married a few years later and had two wonderful children. Being a father and husband have been the most rewarding experiences of my life. She's still my best friend.

My crossdressing had the potential to become much more than crossdressing when I was younger. I am so thankful for the path my life took.

Sami exists when I need her to. My wife (best friend) is very understanding and supportive. The male me leads a full and wonderful life.

Life is good.

[NathalieX66]

I've heard the famous "two years" joke........as in " what's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?.......two years"!.......meaning the process of transition.

I'm a latent crossdresser who has been out & about in public for three years, I never thought such a thing was even remotely possible. I'm even doing without the wig these days as of late.
I am also NOT a transsexual. I'm just a gender-fluid person who is midway through life. That's my comfortable space. I'm just not happy with the constrains of gender that society imposes.

It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.

It's also been theorized that transsexuals are cisgender, not transgender.....they just happen to be the other gender. I can agree with that.

[Bree-asaurus]

It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.

It's also been theorized that transsexuals are cisgender, not transgender.....they just happen to be the other gender. I can agree with that.

Yeah... there are ideas floating around on what's actually different in the mind/brain, and what causes this mismatch. I don't know... all I know is that who I am does not match the body I was put in. For whatever reason I am who I am. And at this point in time, the only way to fix it is by changing the body to match the mind. Maybe one day we can fix the brain or inject a virus that spreads the correct genome/chromosomes/whatever through our body... but until science is that awesome... hormones and surgery it is!

[Vickie_CDTV]

Transvestism is not a layover on an inevitable destination to transsexualism. Many of my TS friends have had one hell of a hard time trying to transition etc. in their lives, and I can understand why one might be in denial about being a TS, it is not a road one would want to have to take.

However, not all of us who dress feel we are in the wrong body, or ever felt that way. Some of us only want to dress occasionally, or to put it another way we have a finite appetite for dressing. I was visiting with some trans friends this weekend, en drab, and I get the usual grief about why I don't feel an irresistible urge to dress like most others there. I can take it or leave it, I am fine with being a male and I am not ashamed to be seen as a male regardless of my friends' gender orientation. Not all of us are TS, not all of us hate being male. One can indeed like dressing occasionally, and still feel like a male. Amazing but true.

[Niya W]

I know when I first came out I was just admit.I'm Just a cross dressers . 5 months later I'm in Seattle seeing how long I can be en feme .

[Bree-asaurus]

Transvestism is not a layover on an inevitable destination to transsexualism. Many of my TS friends have had one hell of a hard time trying to transition etc. in their lives, and I can understand why one might be in denial about being a TS, it is not a road one would want to have to take.

However, not all of us who dress feel we are in the wrong body, or ever felt that way. Some of us only want to dress occasionally, or to put it another way we have a finite appetite for dressing. I was visiting with some trans friends this weekend, en drab, and I get the usual grief about why I don't feel an irresistible urge to dress like most others there. I can take it or leave it, I am fine with being a male and I am not ashamed to be seen as a male regardless of my friends' gender orientation. Not all of us are TS, not all of us hate being male. One can indeed like dressing occasionally, and still feel like a male. Amazing but true.

You are definitely correct... and I thought this was pretty common knowledge!

There are far more crossdressers than there are transexuals and they are definitely two separate and distinct things.

(...and for those of you who think I'm pigeonholing you by saying that... I'm not. There is the whole spectrum of transgender for people who don't fit in as crossdressers or transexuals. And if you still can't live with that label, then sure, you're just you :D )

[Badtranny]

This is clearer to me now. One of the running themes on the site is differences between CDers and TSs as regards the fantasy component on the crossdressing side (as the TS members would put it). Thus you have threads like "would you", "do you ever think about", "what would make you", etc. The TS topics are more typically rooted in the here and now and what they ARE or WILL be doing. I'm not implying that one is better than the other. There's simply a completely different mindset involved. A GG might be rightfully concerned about their SO's fantasy life, but these don't make them transsexual any more than a woman who has rape fantasies REALLY wants to be raped. The vast majority of crossdressers would run from the reality and the vast majority of the transsexuals aren't interested in the fantasies.

Brilliant. Excellent observation.

[Bree-asaurus]

This is clearer to me now. One of the running themes on the site is differences between CDers and TSs as regards the fantasy component on the crossdressing side (as the TS members would put it). Thus you have threads like "would you", "do you ever think about", "what would make you", etc. The TS topics are more typically rooted in the here and now and what they ARE or WILL be doing. I'm not implying that one is better than the other. There's simply a completely different mindset involved. A GG might be rightfully concerned about their SO's fantasy life, but these don't make them transsexual any more than a woman who has rape fantasies REALLY wants to be raped. The vast majority of crossdressers would run from the reality and the vast majority of the transsexuals aren't interested in the fantasies.

Lea

Yes! I totally missed this post. A very good way of describing the difference! :)

[Aprilrain]

I disagree. All you have to do is read the threads in the MTF section or know a few in person. I have been around this community a long time and have been privy to the confessions from crossdressers. Confessions about wanting to live full time female, wanting to be with a man, if they were not married they would live the life they really want, etc. This is my opinion from my personal experience. I think it's about time someone speaks honestly about it. So's would not suffer so much if all the cards were put on the table from the beginging. So's have to really absorb the truth when it is presented as well. Perhaps Julia's wife would not have abandonded the relationship or perhaps not have promised something she could not follow through with if the truth was faced honestly. I am not making a judgement on the trans community, it is what it is and I'm glad people are speaking honestly aobut it. My perspective is obviously from the non cd perspective and I know how easy it is to not want to face the truth. I truly think that so's only get let in on the tip of the iceburg. Hundreds of you have said as much. Please don't fault me for having an opinion different than yours.

While I disagree that all CDs are closet case TSes, in fact I still think they are a minority, I can see where there are enough to give one this impression.

I think you have a pretty good read on that, "type" of "CDer" who will eventually transition though. Much of what you write rings true to my situation. I wish for mine and my wife's sake that we would have HAD all the cards to lay on the table! Had we known where to go for better information things may have been different. We both had our fears and that held us from the truth, from finding "all the cards" I had a bad therapist and conflicting emotions regarding transition, I desperatly wanted it but honestly believed that there was no way that I could be a TS. She just wanted it to go away (at this point we are only talking "CDing" I would have denied wanting to transition) like so many wives she was torn between wanting to please her husband, wanting him to be happy, and WANTING A DAMN HUSBAND! I think the iceberg analogy is good however its not just the SOs who can't see what's under the water, the iceberg was invisible to me as well. We were both standing on the bridge of the USS Denial, full steam ahead! neither one of us was lying, denial is believing something that is false. Our marriage was a mess and my transsexualism was just one part of that whole cluster****!

[NathalieX66]

My advice to all:
Meet a transsexual...know her, or his pain.

[Bree-asaurus]

My advice to all:
Meet a transsexual...know their pain.

Hey, we could have it a lot worse.... but yeah, it sucks lol

[NathalieX66]

I edited it, lol! :)

[whowhatwhen]

My advice to all:
Meet a transsexual...know her, or his pain.

There's another possible denial reason, no one wants to willingly take on pain and suffering.
It's probably going to be easier to deny it.

[Niya W]

What is the difference between a Cd and a TS. 5 years. Ok bad Joke . But most of the girls I knew when I first came out are full time . But Seriously I think deep down when you first come out you have a sense of who you are .Odd thing is all the single or divorced trans folks went full time . Verry few of the ones that were married and kids did that. None of them stayed married . One Girl I know even got full custody .,

[NathalieX66]

There's your other denial reason, no one wants to willingly take on pain and suffering.
It's probably going to be easier to deny it.

Nope, I'm happy where I'm at.
I got a bunch of friends on HRT, and a few who have done SRS......we are all not the same. The people who think about transitioning think about it all the time....For me, I think about what's the next bad-ass note or chord I can play on my guitar.

[whowhatwhen]

Oh no, I must've written that post badly o_O I didn't mean you specifically!

I meant "your" in general, which still may be wrong but my brain is fried.
Sorry, fixed :P

[Lorileah]

I must meet a different breed of TS's. The ones I know are happy and really didn't go through all the angst (that is what I assume was meant as pain, not the surgical part). They knew what they wanted, worked toward that end.

And they keep sending me applications to join (OK not really...they think I should tho.)

[NathalieX66]

whowhatwhen, peace and love.

Being diagnosed transsexual is a very frustrating experience. Wearing the clothing is nothing but a Band-Aid. For real trannsexual people, the attempted suicide rate is something close to 42% ....words from TS rights activist Mara Keisling.
It may be fun or comfortable to wear a dress, but when you know you don't belong in the gender of your birth , it eats at you like full blown cancer.

[Sophie_C]

Posting this again, I seriously suggest seeing the video or, better, reading the book. It is somewhat complex, but not that bad to comprehend.

http://www.amazon.com/Billion-Wicked-Thoughts-Largest-Experiment/dp/0525952098


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGfhQTbcqmA

To answer the question directly:

After you've been through that, it'll be clear that the 'triggers' that set off fetishistic cross-dressing can overlap inborn offset bodymapping, which is where gender identity comes from. However, remember that, as with all other 'systems', they're parallel to each other but not connected.

In laymen's terms, what that means for people born trans, is that the 'freedom' one gives to themselves when they crossdress lets them have the headspace to discover that they're trans all along. The crossdressing itself doesn't cause it. That's why fetishistic cross-dressers don't "become" transsexual. There's nothing more to be discovered. They just get their rocks off on the cross-dressing.

Lastly, know it's not 100% black and white, since they're unconnected. For example, a person can have, say, only a degree of a trans nature, but plenty of a fetishic crossdressing nature, making it rather confusing (especially since almost nobody knows this is how it works), or the opposite, a person with a strong trans nature can still have a slight crossdressing fetish, making them doubt their own feelings.

Clear enough?

I doubt anyone's going to have the patience to go through the video, even though that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Trust me, having a little patience is worth it.

[Badtranny]

That's interesting actually, did she give a reason why?

I can speak to that. I started exploring cross-dressing in 2009 and I spent the whole year trying in vain to get good at it. I met a few local girls and I skulked around this site as well as a gazillion others searching for my identity. The cross-dressing gave me a new perspective and for the first time in my life I was freed from my carefully constructed "dude" prison. I had never been referred to as "she" before and it felt so right and so wonderful that I think I became addicted to the "scene" for a short time. My childhood desire to be a girl came flooding back and I was swept away by the possibilities and simultaneously horrified by the consequences. I realized in just a few months that I had a serious issue but by the end of the year (2009) I had decided that I was done with this stuff and while I was happy to finally know what my problem was, I was not prepared to ruin my life and humiliate myself by becoming a transsexual.

I had never been a cross dresser and though I always felt feminine I had decided as an adolescent to just try and be the kind of guy I admired. Eventually it all came to a head, and I had a brief but intense cross dressing career before I scared myself straight.

Just a few weeks after my decision to continue my life as it was, I was in a pretty bad car wreck (January 2010) and that's when I made the decision to live an authentic life.

CD's are not stunted or latent TS's they are men who are happy being men and for any number of reasons enjoy dressing up and exploring various degrees of femininity. I never enjoyed the act of cross-dressing, I just really really loved being treated like a girl. A faux girl admittedly, but the she's and her's were almost euphoric to me. This is why I keep hammering on the idea that CD's love the clothes and TS's yearn to BE.

My transition goal is to pass 100% as a woman in jeans and a T-shirt. No make-up, no wig, no heels. That doesn't sound much like cross-dressing does it?

[sandra-leigh]

Crossdressers don't become transexual.

Some transexuals may THINK they are crossdressers for a while as they continue to repress their true identity.


I understand that that opinion is fairly common, but I have not seen evidence for it being true.

I posted the below in the Media section a couple of days ago, in reaction to this essay (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/facts-and-arguments/the-essay/i-never-met-societys-standard-of-manliness/article2363314/):



When I read the essay, I was reminded of my own struggles to define whether I was "just a cross-dresser" or was transgender (or perhaps even transsexual.) Reminded because those who did not "always know" tend to reflect back on their life for evidence that this had been with them a long long time rather than being something new and maybe a fetish or maybe an illness. It is not readily accepted that someone might have been one gender while they were growing up, but somewhere along the way had changed and were no longer that gender; we see a lot of narrative along the lines of "Well, maybe I didn't consciously know but that's because I was repressing it". So I read the author's words, and I get struck with a doubt: if he went through those things like I did, and he is male, then is my internal history to support being "not-male" perhaps flawed and maybe I am within the range of male after all?? An attack of The Doubts is never a fun time.

Yes, I was, in part, calling in to question the idea that gender does not change and that transsexuals were always transsexual. Just as Newton famously had no reason to invoke the hypothesis of God in his most famous work, I have not yet seen a reason to invoke the hypothesis that an individual's gender can never change.

Was I female as a child, or was I just an unusual male? I don't know. I seemed male to me, even though I did not fit with more than a small fraction of the other males. Did my gender change, or did I simply not know myself to be transgendered before? I don't know.

I do not know whether "I was always this way" -- but really does the quest for history and "reasons" matter. I am what I am now, no matter how I got here, and my choices and my life have to deal with what is, not with figuring out the Why of it. If I changed gender along the way, then so what?? I'm "here" now.

Before you say whether gender cannot change, you need to figure out what gender is. Is it part of the "soul", a spiritual aspect distinct with but (in some way) interacting with the body? Is it pure genetics, XX is one and XY is another and XX+Y and kin are biological mistakes to be lumped in to a nebulous "other"? Is it all of the several identified gendered brain formations meeting one the normals for XX or XY and any departure from this is yet another biological mistake that "doesn't count"? Is it whether whatever the majority of those brain centers are? Is there different weightings for the various brain centers with the weighted average determining the brain gender?

My own situation is so far consistent with the hypothesis that one or more of my brain centers disagreed with the others about gender, and that for decades my brain worked around the disagreement, doing repairs to so (most) everything matched up. And that with increasing age and increasing life stress, and increased backlog of the brain not being repaired, that there came a time when my brain failed over, no longer able to keep going properly with the imbalance. And that adjusting my gender balance brought my brain more in to peace in its new configuration.

An examination of this hypothesis about me implies that it could possibly be said that my working gender was "male" for decades, but that at some point (perhaps before the hard fail-over itself) my gender had become more female in balance (or at least significantly not male.)

A drop of oil placed on a regular-sized piece of paper will eventually spread out until the oily spot covers the majority of the paper. Do we say that once the oil potential was there, that the paper was "already" oil-covered but just hadn't realized it yet, that the small-sized spots are "repressed" versions of what will be? Or do we say that things can change and evolve in time?

The situation can, of course, be different for different people, but I do not consider it even have been significantly "tested" to say that every TS was "always" a TS, and it is not clear why, in the absence of evidence, that the idea is repeated so often as definite truth. The interpretation of this pattern of responses would appear to be that there is some importance that TS attach to "always having been TS", that the idea is of some strong "value" to them.

And if someone wants to say that "Oh, you are different, your brain isn't typical, maybe not even healthy", then there are two responses that I can bring to that: (1) You are correct, I was born brain-damaged (a fact that has been medically confirmed); and (2) Yeah, So? The "primary transsexuals", are they being born with "typical" brains?

The mechanism of my (known) brain damage are not so uncommon: very low oxygen before and birth, possibly lung problems or possibly umbilical cord wrapped around my neck. No some exotic rare disease: just not enough oxygen. A "typical" birth problem relative to problem births.

If I was odd-but-still-male when I was younger, but if I am no longer still male, and if there are atypical biological circumstances for that, is there a problem with that?

I am now transgender because that is what works for me, not because I feel as if I was always meant to be a woman but was betrayed by God or my body. Living in the NOW of my reality, and hopefully not in the fantasies.

[kimdl93]

[QUOTE=Katesback;2779258]You threw out a joke so I will. The difference between a CD and a TS is that the CD is married and the TS is not. LOL Seriously I believe a surprising number of CDs are really TS but for 1000 reasons or excuses (married being the biggest one) they choose not to transition.
/QUOTE]

I think there's a considerable degree of truth in this statement for many of us. Each of us does a personal calculus taking into account how we define or understand ourselves (at any given moment) and what the risks and costs would be. I'm sure these can change over time for some of us, and that like gravity, we're pulled more towards the TS perspective and perhaps compelled to take greater risks. Others may find a perfectly happy balance and remain there. The frightening part is not knowing for certain which path you may be on.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sandra

This is not about manliness of womanliness...this is not about "qualities" or "traits"...that article has absolutely nothing to do with transsexuals..
By posting that article you are expanding what we all commonly think of as gender
Living a life not feeling manly is a far cry from living a woman's life...

in your analogy of oil and paper...it is not whether the paper is oil soaked that is in question...
it is whether you are paper or glass... the oil will roll off the glass, it can be wiped off with a quick swipe....it will seep in the paper... its a or b.. gender is about paper vs glass, glass does not turn into paper if you drop some oil on it....

forget the word gender...there is SOMETHING INSIDE your soul or mind...call it whatever you want... I call it (and most people call it) gender...

From a ts perspective, you saying you do not see "evidence" or you haven't seen the idea "tested"
is just sticking your fingers in your ear while we all say what we lived and observed..

...it is on YOU to prove to us why the way we experienced (and literally every transsexual i ever met) it is somehow misunderstood by US

[Bree-asaurus]

I understand that that opinion is fairly common, but I have not seen evidence for it being true.

...

An examination of this hypothesis about me implies that it could possibly be said that my working gender was "male" for decades, but that at some point (perhaps before the hard fail-over itself) my gender had become more female in balance (or at least significantly not male.)

...

The situation can, of course, be different for different people, but I do not consider it even have been significantly "tested" to say that every TS was "always" a TS, and it is not clear why, in the absence of evidence, that the idea is repeated so often as definite truth. The interpretation of this pattern of responses would appear to be that there is some importance that TS attach to "always having been TS", that the idea is of some strong "value" to them.

...

I am now transgender because that is what works for me, not because I feel as if I was always meant to be a woman but was betrayed by God or my body. Living in the NOW of my reality, and hopefully not in the fantasies.

A cisgender says crossdressers are gay and that gay is a choice.
A crossdresser says transexuals are just highly devoted crossdressers.
A transgender says the transexuals are just transgender but pretend they were always one gender.
A transexual says crossdressers are just transexuals in the making.

What do all four of these people have in common? They're not respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them.

You have your own unique situation and experienced things your way. That's fine. But just because you haven't experienced what MOST other transexuals HAVE experienced that what they are saying isn't true.

If you haven't seen the evidence that you were a girl since you were born, that's because things are different for you. MOST other transexuals have.

[LeaP]

What do all four of these people have in common? They're not respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them.



Oh, but it gets worse!

Any of the finger-pointers also have to maintain that people do things for pleasure despite the pain in doing them, that they have ulterior motives despite the risk of having them obliterated (e.g., autogynephilia vs. loss of orgasmic capability), that they are compulsive even when there is no pattern of addictive behavior, that they are irresponsible though they are sterling citizens, spouses, and parents, that they are selfish despite extraordinary levels of self-sacrifice, liars despite horrific psychological pressure, aggressive and in people's faces when they only wish to pass unnoticed, deluded despite knowledge of risk and implications, and more!

But even more than this sort of thing and the lack of respect is this: These views are deeply, fundamentally transphobic. They are evidence of disbelief in the reality of trans identities. Period.

Lea

[Lorileah]

There is a blue one who can't accept the green one
For living with a fat one trying to be a skinny one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee

I am everyday people

[kittypw GG]

Kitty I think your wrong about CDs. A lot are TS yes but its not known how many are. Others are not and so we just have to be clear!

You know I could be but............. Why do so many cd's hate their male self? Why dress the male disrespectfully with out of date jeans, T-shirts, sportswear or anything that takes no effort at all but dress the feme self elaborately? This to me suggests a disrespect for the male self. If maleness was embraced equally there would be the same effort in the variety and quality of the male clothing? Infinate variety exists in the mens section, It is no secret I have shopped there. To me that makes no sense and also leads partners and family members of cd's to question their true identity. Most cds actions don't match their words. If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? I could have hung in there (well maybe not without a lot of medication, he was more than trans) but it never stays parttime. You read it here time and time again. In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. To me that is confusing evidence that crossdressing is just a transition to the realization that the truth is more transexual than anything.

[Marleena]

If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? I could have hung in there (well maybe not without a lot of medication, he was more than trans) but it never stays parttime. You read it here time and time again. In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. To me that is confusing evidence that crossdressing is just a transition to the realization that the truth is more transexual than anything.

Okay now I see where you're coming from Kitty. Is your experience with this from a small sampling of CD's because what you are saying goes directly against statistical evidence from people in the field. That was my original point, I'm not being difficult btw.

[kimdl93]

.... Most cds actions don't match their words. If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? ....... In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. ....

Kitty, with all due respect to your personal expereince, but its just one experience. Perhaps your husband was a deeply repressed transsexual, but on the other hand you mention he had other issues. There's ample evidence to the contrary among the varied members of this site. And as for balance, one can acheive some degree of balance without it being a 50:50 deal. There are part timers here who dress rarely, some others, like myself who dress most of the time, and yet still present as males when they choose.

[sandra-leigh]

You have your own unique situation and experienced things your way. That's fine. But just because you haven't experienced what MOST other transexuals HAVE experienced that what they are saying isn't true.


Bree, you yourself wrote that "Crossdressers don't become transexual." You did not write, "In my experience", you write it as a statement of truth about all transsexuals. Was that "respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them" ?

I write that I have not seen any evidence that gender is absolutely fixed, no evidence that it is not possible for a (non-transsexual) cross-dresser to become transsexual. Am I making a statement about what "MOST" transsexuals have experienced? Not in the least. I am making a statement about the difference between MOST and ALL. To toss out a figure just to have a framework for discussion, suppose 99% of those who are male cross-dressers never will (circumstance) or never can (lack the potential to) become MTF transsexuals: that would still leave a non-zero portion who might change from being male to being female, without having "always been" female. Sure "1%" cross-over might be too high (or too low) a portion, but do we really know enough about transsexuality and the nature of gender to say that gender, once formed, is definitely invariant (if sometimes perhaps "not recognized" until later in life) ?

[Badtranny]

Infinate variety exists in the mens section,

Yes indeed and I had a great time dressing up in different outfits, or suits, or sweaters. I love fashionable men and a big good looking man in a nicely tailored outfit is really something to behold. (and be held) ;-)

What you're describing is just cross-dressers being silly and trying to pretend the reason why they do it is because men's clothes are so awful and uncomfortable. I know this to be bunk because I spent 42 years wearing men's clothes exclusively. I went through a preppy phase in high school where I never wore jeans and me and a couple of friends would literally razz each other about bad fashion choices. (socks with top-siders? really) There is a wonderful array of men's fashion out there and it doesn't have to be expensive to be stylish. The real problem is, it LOOKS like menswear so the cross dresser is not interested. Of course rather than say that, so many of them feel compelled to wheel out that tired old excuse of comfort or blandness to explain why they prefer womenswear.

This does not mean they are latent TS's, they're just simply unable to own who they are for whatever reason. I talk about self acceptance a lot because it's as important as it is difficult. Many of these guys desperately want a healthy relationship with an accepting woman, but that will never happen until they can accept themselves.

[Bree-asaurus]

Bree, you yourself wrote that "Crossdressers don't become transexual." You did not write, "In my experience", you write it as a statement of truth about all transsexuals. Was that "respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them" ?

I write that I have not seen any evidence that gender is absolutely fixed, no evidence that it is not possible for a (non-transsexual) cross-dresser to become transsexual. Am I making a statement about what "MOST" transsexuals have experienced? Not in the least. I am making a statement about the difference between MOST and ALL. To toss out a figure just to have a framework for discussion, suppose 99% of those who are male cross-dressers never will (circumstance) or never can (lack the potential to) become MTF transsexuals: that would still leave a non-zero portion who might change from being male to being female, without having "always been" female. Sure "1%" cross-over might be too high (or too low) a portion, but do we really know enough about transsexuality and the nature of gender to say that gender, once formed, is definitely invariant (if sometimes perhaps "not recognized" until later in life) ?

MOST is what I meant. I thought you might notice that since every other post I've made in this thread follows that theme... even in the one you JUST quoted me on. Simply a brain fart on my part.

But from the start of your post, you made it sound like "oh well I hear this and that... but I don't believe it"...


I understand that that opinion is fairly common, but I have not seen evidence for it being true.

...

Yes, I was, in part, calling in to question the idea that gender does not change and that transsexuals were always transsexual.

So if you can forgive me for leaving out "most" that one time, I'll forgive you for making it sound like you were debating whether all transexuals were always their true gender :P I wasn't the only one that got this impression from your post...

No hard feelings. It just sounded to me like you were saying you didn't believe that most transexuals were their true gender from birth. There's no hard evidence one way or the other, but there are TONS of transexuals that will swear they were always the gender they transitioned to live as.

[whowhatwhen]

You can't ask a man to be stereotypically "manly" if he isn't and I'm going to bet there is a laaaaaarge amount of men out there that aren't.
Manliness is fake, it's all fake and if some guy is acting all tough bro like then I would assume he's probably closeted in some form.

If you want to go by "real men", then they're the most stealth at all not needing fancy male clothes or stereotypes to reassure themselves.

Edit:
No, why of course I'm not bitter at all...

[ArleneRaquel]

I believe that I was always TG, since the age of eight I have wanted to live as much as my adult life as possible as a woman. In my youth I had a reoccurring dream wher I was a nanny, nurse, taking care of a young boy whose father was a widower who fell in love with me, and I was in a dither weather or not I should tell him that I was born a male, I always woke up before my decision was made, oh well I may be getting close to a merry event. :)

[kittypw GG]

Kitty, with all due respect to your personal expereince, but its just one experience. .

Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post?

[sissystephanie]

For the most part, each of us was born with one set of sex oragans which detirmines what sex we really are. I said, "for the most part" because they are people born with both types of sex organs! However, they are few and far between!! Most of us on this forum were born men, and will always remain men unless that person has special surgery.

I am a male who does love to crossdress. I do it simply because I like to wear feminine clothes. There is no other reason! By crossdressing I am a Transgender, but I am nowhere near being Transexual nor will I ever be!! I do not have, nor have I ever had, any desire to BE a woman!! IMHO, dressing like one and actually being one are 2 entirely different things!!

For those who don't really know the difference, a TG is one who crosses the border between sexes, but remains the sex they were born as! A perfect example is crossdressing. If you wear feminine clothes you are crossing the border and therefore you are a TG. On the other hand, if you wear feminine clothes so as to be a woman for men you most likely are a Transsexual who would prefer to be a woman!

[Rianna Humble]

It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.

The "brain wiring" may just be a theory, but there is a lot of science behind the established fact that a Ts's brain is physically different to the average brain of a cisgender with the same birth sex.

Trouble is, the proof can only be established post mortem and personally, I am in no hurry for that. :eek:

[Kaitlyn26]

I think it depends on the person and the reason behind the dressing. A true crossdresser may not want to be a woman at all, and may simply enjoy a shorter less permanent experience. Others may have trouble getting up daily and functioning in life as a man. I fall into the later. The reason for doing it may not be apparent at first, but it's usually there the whole time.

I consider myself trans and have a shoe fetish. Crossdressing for me started out as nothing more than accessories to go with my shoes, and ended in me realizing what had been missing from my life all along. Odd path, but I'm odd so it's not surprising.

[Lorileah]

Manliness is fake, it's all fake
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts.

Sometimes I feel as if I was born without certain genes (or maybe just different genes) because I do not get the pleasure that some men seem to get from certain activities.

if some guy is acting all tough bro like then I would assume he's probably closeted in some form.


Now there you could be mistaken. I don't think they are closeted or compensating as much as they are trying to fulfill the role and make themselves look bigger or meaner or badder than their cohorts. I think it is all part of the act because that is how they were told to act and react. I also believe that many are very happy with the role they are awarded. Who wouldn't be (OK OK I see about 500 hands going up out there). Males (men, and WASP men especially in the Western world) are endowed with so many privileges why would anyone want to give those up? They pretty much have carte blanc now. Even the requirements to be "gentlemanly" have become passe'.

[whowhatwhen]

Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post?

How many GGs in a successful relationship are rushing to tell a CD forum vs the ones desparately looking for answers?

[kimdl93]

Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post?

actually, yes I have.

[whowhatwhen]

Now there you could be mistaken. I don't think they are closeted or compensating as much as they are trying to fulfill the role and make themselves look bigger or meaner or badder than their cohorts. I think it is all part of the act because that is how they were told to act and react.

I can see your point, and I may have been generalizing a bit as what first 'clicked' my head into thinking of my feminine side was realizing how fake and plastic "manliness" and the male image felt.
Of course I'm no benchmark either, growing up other kids made it clear to me I wasn't acting like "a normal school boy" either.

So my thought became "expressing manliness" == "HAY LOOK HOW TOTALLY NOT GAY I AM! LOOK!".

[Bree-asaurus]

For the most part, each of us was born with one set of sex oragans which detirmines what sex we really are. I said, "for the most part" because they are people born with both types of sex organs! However, they are few and far between!! Most of us on this forum were born men, and will always remain men unless that person has special surgery.

I am a male who does love to crossdress. I do it simply because I like to wear feminine clothes. There is no other reason! By crossdressing I am a Transgender, but I am nowhere near being Transexual nor will I ever be!! I do not have, nor have I ever had, any desire to BE a woman!! IMHO, dressing like one and actually being one are 2 entirely different things!!

For those who don't really know the difference, a TG is one who crosses the border between sexes, but remains the sex they were born as! A perfect example is crossdressing. If you wear feminine clothes you are crossing the border and therefore you are a TG. On the other hand, if you wear feminine clothes so as to be a woman for men you most likely are a Transsexual who would prefer to be a woman!

You love to post this. There is a difference between sex and gender. Sex has to do with the genitals. Gender is internal. And since you know so much about what determines a person's sex/gender/whatever, why is it the genitals that determines this for you? Not the internal sex organs or chromosomes? I don't care what parts I have, I'm a woman, the government agrees with me, and I will live as a woman for the rest of my life. Your 50 year old opinion based on what science now knows isn't true plays no part in this.

Being transexual isn't the desire to be a woman... internally, we ARE women. I would have rather been a man if I could choose. It would have been so much easier.

And transexuals don't wear women's cloths to be a woman for men. Yes... I want to hook a man... let me go dress up like a lady.... /sarcasm

You are sorely misinformed.

Maybe you should listen to what the transexuals have to say about who they are and why they have to do what they do rather than making up your own crazy stories.

[Niya W]

I'm going step in here and get serious. Most of what I see here is not my reality. But because that's not in my life means I can discount others experiences . I've known lots of married Cd's only one went further.
Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post? once again that would discount other peoples experiences . But hey if you want to go by that lets go by what I see when I'm off line and interacting with CD's. Like I've said I've met quiet few marred CDs. Now this might come as a shock to you. But most of the wife's I meant in real life that come here leaving that a lot of the GGs here are bitter. I can't speak to this cause this was in the FAB forum. Have I seen that on this forum. Yes a little bit . But I can;t go on and make a generalization that most GGs here are bitter .

[BRANDYJ]

]"Do you believe Crossdressing to be just a stage along the transgender continuum, or is it stand alone, self expression by male with male gender brain and strong feminine side and no denial?????"

I can only speak for myself. At my age it stands to reason that I am not in any stage to become TS. It should have/would have happened a long time ago. For me, to use your words, it is a stand alone self expression of my male gender brain with a strong feminine side. I am not in denial what so ever.


This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

Sorry Kitty, I strongly disagree with you. I think a very small percentage of CD'ers are in fact TS at any stage. For starters, I bet the majority of CD'ers are the ones we call fetish dressers. Next is that group that fully enjoys being a male and would never give that up. But like many of us, enjoys his short stays in the feminine world he makes when he has the time and inclination to dress.
Some one else said it. You are born TS. But I don't belive we are born CD. That is from early childhoon socialization and personal expression brought on for a multitude of reasons.
Notice that it's those that know they are TS are the ones that support the theory that CD's are really TS on some denial trip. Next are those that say they wish they were TS or would have transitioned if they knew what they knew at an earlier age.
I honestly think you are judgeing form your bad experience with a man that may or may not be a TS that regardless was not a caring. loving person that used and abused you. I'm sorry that happened to you... sincerely. But don't throw us all into the same pigion hole your ex was in. CD, TS, makes no difference. if I remember your story correctly, he simply was not a good person. Some of us are and some of us are not. And the majority by far would not take the path your ex did.

[Inna]

I like to think I am fairly intelectual individual, although such assumption tend to feel self righteous, so lets say I am an average in everything. I am reading the replies with utmost interest, because I in fact want to understand even if the subject at hand seems illusive at best.

But one statement, repeated often, contradicts statement's authors. Brandy this is not intended directly to you but you did state such statement as well, and so it goes:
"I should have and given the circumstances, would have if it only was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago but I am content with what I have now and I feel no denial whats so ever"

Now, in my understanding would have and should have indicates a NEED, but because of circumstances such need is stifled, sentenced, abandoned but you know as well as I, never forgotten. Other statements confess "if I only won a lottery things would had been different"....Really!!! how different would they be???

I fail to understand this phenomena, and perhaps I am the one who does NOT understand, but in my book that is a definition of denial :)

PEACE :daydreaming:

[Bree-asaurus]

I like to think I am fairly intelectual individual, although such assumption tend to feel self righteous, so lets say I am an average in everything. I am reading the replies with utmost interest, because I in fact want to understand even if the subject at hand seems illusive at best.

But one statement, repeated often, contradicts statement's authors. Brandy this is not intended directly to you but you did state such statement as well, and so it goes:
"I should have and given the circumstances, would have if it only was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago but I am content with what I have now and I feel no denial whats so ever"

Now, in my understanding would have and should have indicates a NEED, but because of circumstances such need is stifled, sentenced, abandoned but you know as well as I, never forgotten. Other statements confess "if I only won a lottery things would had been different"....Really!!! how different would they be???

I fail to understand this phenomena, and perhaps I am the one who does NOT understand, but in my book that is a definition of denial :)

PEACE :daydreaming:

What I find interesting is that some people are saying they are crossdressers and 'shoulda woulda' 10-50 years ago but CAN'T?!?

I've seen all kinds of transexuals transition at all stages of life with all sorts of unfortunate circumstances transition because they HAD TO. I believe it's extremely rare that a transexual transitions because "well... I'd like to, but I don't really have to." And along those lines I think it's also pretty rare that a transexual, knowing who they are, will be like "well, I'd like to, but it's just not convenient now."

Then again, maybe after 50 years of pretending to be a guy you don't know much else anymore... maybe you've kinda... brainwashed yourself or something and it's easier to suffer through the remainder of your life pretending to be someone your not. Then.... again... there are transexuals on this very forum and some that I know in real life that have transitioned at 50, 60 and 70 years old. Why is it that some people feel the need to be themselves no matter what, and other people say they are transexual but transitioning is too inconvenient?

[kittypw GG]

. But I can;t go on and make a generalization that most GGs here are bitter .

Who said anyone here is bitter? The discussion is "when does a crossdresser become a transexual if ever". I think the discussion is going very well. Nothing that has been said shows concrete evidence that cd's aren't just in denial. Why post all the "if I win the lottery" things and "If I could take a pill and wake up a girl " I can't believe that its all just fantasy. Why all the so called "pink fog"? and all the complaints that family gets in the way of dressing. If cd's loved being men as well as crossdressing then any upset in a plan to crossdress would not be any problem right? Or is something else really behind it? Right now I'm banking on denial.

[Camillainfurs]

Plenty of interesting thoughts and comments here. I will be as bold to contribute, even though I'm brand new here. Some things have been said which implies (or maybe it it's just me interpreting things completely wrong) that I am repressed by one reason or another. That I'm repressing my own, true female identity. I can honestly say in my case that it's simply not true. I know this since I'm not a habitual crossdresser. I've only done it a few times and would absolutely love to do it again, and be able to do it on a frequent basis. During the 15 years I've been thinking about crossdressing I've been doing a lot of soul searching and never, ever have I felt the wish to become a woman. When I dress, I dress 100%. I won't settle for a dress and a wig. I mean no offence to those who like that, but it's not for me. In the same way, I don't wear female underwear under my male clothes.
I've talked to crossdressers who would probably fit into some sort of spectrum. Some would like to surgically create breasts, but nothing more for example. In South-America there is a large and well-known travesti sub-culture made up of people who are physiologically a mix between men and women. In this case, you could probably talk of a CD/TS spectrum. After I first dressed, I became even more adamant that what works for me is a very strict and definite line between my male (and main) side and Camilla.
The fact that we're talking about individuals here makes it impossible to come up with any sort of conclusion as no individual is alike and everyone has some little tweek or issue that makes sure they don't fit into a category. Sure, many here might have things in common and relate more strongly to each other based on how they feel, but I think we best avoid a too clear branding. It has been mentioned previous in this post that one or two similar personal stories proves some sort of point. That is a notion I strongly disagree with. I don't think anything can proven when dealing with these difficult issues.

[Miriam-J]

Around and around it goes ... This topic has become so circular that what was once a fairly interesting discussion has become incredibly predictable. A few have made some good thoughtful points, only to be shouted down repeatedly by those who insist they know the minds and hearts of others better than they could ever know themselves. Those of you who insist you can see inside the minds of others will do better not to see inside my mind as I read your posts.

Please, let's be respectful enough to accept what others say about themselves at face value, and refrain from insisting that we know better.

Miriam

[Niya W]

Who said anyone here is bitter? The discussion is "when does a crossdresser become a transexual if ever". I think the discussion is going very well. Nothing that has been said shows concrete evidence that cd's aren't just in denial. Why post all the "if I win the lottery" things and "If I could take a pill and wake up a girl " I can't believe that its all just fantasy. Why all the so called "pink fog"? and all the complaints that family gets in the way of dressing. If cd's loved being men as well as crossdressing then any upset in a plan to crossdress would not be any problem right? Or is something else really behind it? Right now I'm banking on denial.

You missed my point . I was talking about taking you views and observations and make it into a blanket statement . I know a lot of guys that get upset when their hobbies or what they do for fun gets interrupted. But once again most of the CD's I know don't have that complaint. I know lots that take the winters months off . One thing I've found are the ones that go out tend not to have those complaints . A lot of what I see on this board I do not see in the bahvior ofthe CD's I know and that go out .

[Michelle.M]

It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.

Not as theoretical as you might think -

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

[Lorileah]

denial
[dinī′əl]
Etymology: L, denegare, to negate
1 refusal or restriction of something requested, claimed, or needed, often causing physical or emotional deficiency.
2 an unconscious defense mechanism in which emotional conflict and anxiety are avoided by refusal to acknowledge those thoughts, feelings, desires, impulses, or facts that are consciously intolerable.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.

Thus I don't believe Brandy is in denial. She (and I because I am in the same boat...we might call it NON-op TS?) knows what she is she just does not feel the need to act on it at this time. Also she (and those of us who are in that boat) don't have physical or emotional deficiency so we don't fit (1) either.

Are there TS's who are in denial? Yes. Those of us who are not acting on it at this point may have been there at one time (heck most of us oldsters were in denial over just being TG) but others may have never had any doubt but either didn't have the resources (Thus if you win the lottery) or we didn't like teh surgical options available at the time (Basically it was nothing more than a castration and penectomy...and really just because you don't have a penis doesn't make you feel any more feminine...it just makes you a "nullo" as they call them). And here is the basic thing "we" see. Just because a TS is on their way and they feel that they will physically soon match their needs, does not make those of us who are not going through this for whatever reason less cognizant of who we are.

I will speak for me and if Brandy wants to say otherwise, she can, but we are not denying anything. We are in our minds realistic and logical for who we are.

[Babette]

Thank you Miriam. Ironically, your words were my exact thoughts. I don't believe there is anyone on this forum that has enough insight to declare my personal intentions to be a matter of fact, or to include me into any sweeping generalizations about CD's, TG's, or whatever you think I might be or will become. You don't know me and I sure as tomorrow don't have a clue about you.

Babette

[whowhatwhen]

Come to think of it, this thread poses an interesting question.

If you're going to be in a relationship, obviously you would disclose that you're TG but instead of trying to peer into the future just tell them to assume you're going to transition?
I think it's only fair to tell him or her to know that it's going to be a possibility rather than to get involved and have major drama down the line IF you decide you need to transition.

That doesn't guarantee anything, but it's one less variable.

[Rianna Humble]

one statement, repeated often, contradicts statement's authors. Brandy this is not intended directly to you but you did state such statement as well, and so it goes:
"I should have and given the circumstances, would have if it only was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago but I am content with what I have now and I feel no denial what so ever"

Now, in my understanding would have and should have indicates a NEED, but because of circumstances such need is stifled, sentenced, abandoned but you know as well as I, never forgotten.

To me, "shoulda, coulda, woulda" is looking back with less than 20/20 hindsight.

I can regret that I didn't have the possibility and understanding 40 or 50 years ago that I have now, but anyone who is content with their gender identity does not need to transition. If they are here and not a GG, then they probably fall somewhere under the TransGender umbrella, but they are not transsexual because they can be content with their gender identity.

Transition is not something you do because you want to become something you are not. It is something that you do because you need to survive or opt out of life.

I have yet to meet an MtF transsexual who transitioned because she wanted to become a woman. I have met plenty (including myself) who transition because we are already women and cannot continue to live the lie that we are something else. As far as I can tell the same thing is true for the FtM's in that they transition because they are men but their body does not reflect who they are.

Contentment does not equal denial. It does equal a lack of need to change that with which one is content.

[Sally24]

I think there are as many reasons for gender variant people as there are excuses for not exploring this world. I personally believe you have input into what you "need" here. I don't think many of us are fated to be one thing or the other. Some sides argue that many are denying who and what they really are. Others say that surgery can't make you happy.

My personal feeling is that many people think that their path is the only real or true one. Sort of like religion. And like the analogy to religion, they are wrong. I think for the majority, there are many places on the gender spectrum where they could be happy. It's up to each individual to find the best fit for them. I don't think short of magic that there is a perfect fit, just the best fit.

Many of our needs change over time and I see that in the number of 40 and 50 years olds who finally start going out into the world. Are they transexuals that have been denying their nature? Well, some of them are....but some of them are not. As complex as the issue is I think seeing it as diverse as the light spectrum with all different hues and frequencies is apt. What's your frequency?

[Bree-asaurus]

To me, "shoulda, coulda, woulda" is looking back with less than 20/20 hindsight.

I can regret that I didn't have the possibility and understanding 40 or 50 years ago that I have now, but anyone who is content with their gender identity does not need to transition. If they are here and not a GG, then they probably fall somewhere under the TransGender umbrella, but they are not transsexual because they can be content with their gender identity.

Transition is not something you do because you want to become something you are not. It is something that you do because you need to survive or opt out of life.

I have yet to meet an MtF transsexual who transitioned because she wanted to become a woman. I have met plenty (including myself) who transition because we are already women and cannot continue to live the lie that we are something else. As far as I can tell the same thing is true for the FtM's in that they transition because they are men but their body does not reflect who they are.

Contentment does not equal denial. It does equal a lack of need to change that with which one is content.

Thank you!

We transition because we HAVE TO. Not because we want to.

I don't recall thinking "Oh wouldn't it be cool to be a woman?! Maybe I should dress up and change my body chemistry and chop off my man parts! Oh this will be so fun!"

It was more like "@#$%!!! What do I have to do to continue living!"

Of course this is just me... and most other transexuals out there...

[Sally24]

Of course this is just me... and most other transexuals out there...

Only if you forget to count the pre-ops and non-ops and the ones who live without hrt or surgery.

If we agree that the transexual brain is different, than I would be very surprised if we scanned everyones brain and didn't find Many, Many, Many more transexuals in the general population. And they wouldn't have to be in denial. Being transexual does NOT have to mean that at some point it's either transition or die. Is it a common story? Of course! Is it the only transexual story? NO!

I would think people on this forum at least would understand that very little in this world is black and white.

[Ari333]

I think that issues of crossdressing and transgender are seperate, but for myself it was my crossdressing that made me aware of my gender dysphoria. like many of us, my outer appearance when crossdressed felt "right", for lack of a better or more descriptive term. once I began venturing out in public, it became somewhat addictive, until I eventually realized that I was born to be a girl. I denied it for a long time, it was frightening! eventually I realized the difference (for myself): mentally I am the same, no matter my outer appearance. whether dressed as male or female, I am she.
but I have no desire for SRS. I did consider fulltime femininity at one point when much younger, but decided I was not ready to start a whole new life. I knew then I was not TS. just a snowflake, one of the hundreds of variations between TV and TS.

[CINDYO]

Question- If a guy wants to dress like a female a greater percentage of time, ie greater than 50% if the time, note I said "wants to" some want to but don't admit it. Then i question, why not just go for it and become a female in every sense of the word. This is obviously what the cder wants or he would not be dressing or wanting to all the time. It is more accepted than crossdressing and eventually would be less confusing and tormentive to a wife.. At least if the husband says he is going to transition, he would be happy as heck and there would be no more "what ifs" for the wife. The road would be clear cut and eventually everyone involved would be living a normal life. The couple may not be together but they would eventually live a life with some certainty and perdictablility about tomorrow or next year.

[Lorileah]

Only if you forget to count the pre-ops and non-ops and the ones who live without hrt or surgery.


I would think people on this forum at least would understand that very little in this world is black and white.

Thank you ma'am. That's what I been trying to say. "we who don't have surgery" are just as real as anyone else.

And I think I am done with this thread. Why does it always end US VS THEM?

[Bree-asaurus]

Only if you forget to count the pre-ops and non-ops and the ones who live without hrt or surgery.

If we agree that the transexual brain is different, than I would be very surprised if we scanned everyones brain and didn't find Many, Many, Many more transexuals in the general population. And they wouldn't have to be in denial. Being transexual does NOT have to mean that at some point it's either transition or die. Is it a common story? Of course! Is it the only transexual story? NO!

I would think people on this forum at least would understand that very little in this world is black and white.

I didn't say being transexual means transition or die. I also said that transition or die was MY experience and a very common one at that.

I'm talking about transexuals after they come to the realization that they're transexual. My statement includes all the variations you stated above. Transition doesn't require anything you mentioned... surgery or HRT.

I have no doubts that there are transexuals that live their whole life in denial. But as you can see from the wide array of transexuals out there, sometimes it takes quite a long time before they come to terms with who they are. Just because a transexual is in denial right now, doesn't mean they will be in 10, 20, 50 years.


Thank you ma'am. That's what I been trying to say. "we who don't have surgery" are just as real as anyone else.

And I think I am done with this thread. Why does it always end US VS THEM?

Who is saying you're not? I see arguments here, and some ignorance, but where is the US VS THEM?

Have I put down crossdressers? Have I put transexuals on a pedestal? I've actually seen a wide array of ideas from both sides. How is this a war of crossdressers vs transexuals?

[BRANDYJ]

Thus I don't believe Brandy is in denial. She (and I because I am in the same boat...we might call it NON-op TS?) knows what she is she just does not feel the need to act on it at this time. Also she (and those of us who are in that boat) don't have physical or emotional deficiency so we don't fit (1) either.

Are there TS's who are in denial? Yes. Those of us who are not acting on it at this point may have been there at one time (heck most of us oldsters were in denial over just being TG) but others may have never had any doubt but either didn't have the resources (Thus if you win the lottery) or we didn't like teh surgical options available at the time (Basically it was nothing more than a castration and penectomy...and really just because you don't have a penis doesn't make you feel any more feminine...it just makes you a "nullo" as they call them). And here is the basic thing "we" see. Just because a TS is on their way and they feel that they will physically soon match their needs, does not make those of us who are not going through this for whatever reason less cognizant of who we are.

I will speak for me and if Brandy wants to say otherwise, she can, but we are not denying anything. We are in our minds realistic and logical for who we are.

Thank you Lorileah,

This thread is painting with a very broad brush. I know who and what I am and I happen to like who and what I am. I would not transition even if I win the lotto! Many of our TS members stated that they transitioned because they had to. I get that. Why can't they or others get that most of us that identify as CD's done have to or want to? I am very happy with my duelality and never would change that. Besides, if I did, I'd lose themost important thing in my life, that is my SO. Nothing...I mean NOTHING is worth that to me. Many TS's have lost women they love becaue the need was that strong to transition. I feel for them, I hurt for them, but npo way coulld I pay the price many have. Just call me a very happy CD...period.

[Bree-asaurus]

Thank you Lorileah,

This thread is painting with a very broad brush. I know who and what I am and I happen to like who and what I am. I would not transition even if I win the lotto! Many of our TS members stated that they transitioned because they had to. I get that. Why can't they or others get that most of us that identify as CD's done have to or want to? I am very happy with my duelality and never would change that. Besides, if I did, I'd lose themost important thing in my life, that is my SO. Nothing...I mean NOTHING is worth that to me. Many TS's have lost women they love becaue the need was that strong to transition. I feel for them, I hurt for them, but npo way coulld I pay the price many have. Just call me a very happy CD...period.

I think this thread had a very weird OP and a couple random people that said all crossdressers are on the road to being transexuals (which is absurd). But if you read all the posts, you'll see that the people who are shouting these blanket statements are in the minority. ... at least I hope so!

[Sally24]

I also said that transition or die was MY experience and a very common one at that.
I was Mostly taking issue with the Most in your response.


Transition doesn't require anything you mentioned... surgery or HRT.
I am surprised to hear that definition from you because my impression was that very many TS's here consider surgery and HRT to be synonymous with transition. Maybe I learned something new today.:)

[sandra-leigh]

It was more like "@#$%!!! What do I have to do to continue living!"

The only significant difference between what you write there and what I went through, is that I was still at the point where I thought that it might be possible to keep living as I was.

Like working on a bad job, "Well, I think I can stand another month of it", or "I really hate going in today, but the rent is due", or "let's see how badly they #$@# me over at xmas time, maybe it will get better.".

How much longer did I have before it I couldn't stand it anymore? I don't know. Another couple of years of struggle seemed like something I could perhaps get through, but I didn't think I could make it until retirement.

And once you have figured out that you must do something to fix your life, if you do not need to delay for Darn Good Reasons, then struggling in misery for a few more years just because you are not yet at your breaking point, does not seem to be a wise strategy. Wiser, IMHO, to take action before it becomes critical.

[Bree-asaurus]

I was Mostly taking issue with the Most in your response.


I am surprised to hear that definition from you because my impression was that very many TS's here consider surgery and HRT to be synonymous with transition. Maybe I learned something new today.:)

They usually go hand in hand, but they are not required. Basically, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to survive.

As for the "most," well we're kinda judging by what we know... from the people we've heard about and the studies we've seen. We have no idea how many transexuals never transition. It could be 5 people, it could be thousands. But rather than argue all the possible variations, why not stick to the information that's out there and make reasonable arguments based off of it?

And this thread is by no means a scientific study or anything that will even be remembered in a couple weeks.


The only significant difference between what you write there and what I went through, is that I was still at the point where I thought that it might be possible to keep living as I was.

Like working on a bad job, "Well, I think I can stand another month of it", or "I really hate going in today, but the rent is due", or "let's see how badly they #$@# me over at xmas time, maybe it will get better.".

How much longer did I have before it I couldn't stand it anymore? I don't know. Another couple of years of struggle seemed like something I could perhaps get through, but I didn't think I could make it until retirement.

And once you have figured out that you must do something to fix your life, if you do not need to delay for Darn Good Reasons, then struggling in misery for a few more years just because you are not yet at your breaking point, does not seem to be a wise strategy. Wiser, IMHO, to take action before it becomes critical.

I totally agree with you. I was just battling fear until I almost went too far. I wish I could have realized the need before getting sucked down as far as I did.

[whowhatwhen]

Just because a transexual is in denial right now, doesn't mean they will be in 10, 20, 50 years.


That seems to go back to the "difference between CD and TS" joke posted earlier.
:P

I know we covered that you don't need to crossdress to be TS, but can crossdressing act as a gateway to self discovery in some circumstances?

Sorry for the million questions, I'm sponging it up.
:)

Edit:
vvvvvvv
Oh, sorry - I was just referencing it.

[Bree-asaurus]

That seems to go back to the "difference between CD and TS" joke posted earlier.
:P

I know we covered that you don't need to crossdress to be TS, but can crossdressing act as a gateway to self discovery in some circumstances?

Sorry for the million questions, I'm sponging it up.
:)

I'm sure it can. Crossdressing was more of an outlet for me. To have SOME kind of expression of who I am.

I, honestly, don't really like that joke.

[Katesback]

Well Kitty I will tell you this. When I worked for the state doing HIV prevention targeting the trans population I was in contact with countless trans people. That of course includes CDs. From my observations I had a lot of the CDs talk to me in confidence about thier desires. Of course they wont talk turkey around the wife! I can say that a shocking number of them were wanting to transition but the one big common factor ALWAYS came into play. Marriage. They did not want to loose thier marriage!

Now of course these were CDs that had enough confidence to at least go into the public to some degree. I would suggest that thats a pretty small percentage of the CDs because I suspect the overwelming majority hide in thier houses ONLY. Of course the ones with a bit of confidence get a taste of womanhood and the wheels start turning.

Add to it the insidious word they like to use incorrectly, ACCEPTANCE. See if they have not gained any acceptance then they tend to hide and never express themselves but if they gain some sort of acceptance (in thier words) the clock starts ticking to wanting to transition. Why do I call acceptance insidious? Well because they incorrectly add to word participatory to it. Meaning they want thier wives to be actively participatory of thier activities.








You know I could be but............. Why do so many cd's hate their male self? Why dress the male disrespectfully with out of date jeans, T-shirts, sportswear or anything that takes no effort at all but dress the feme self elaborately? This to me suggests a disrespect for the male self. If maleness was embraced equally there would be the same effort in the variety and quality of the male clothing? Infinate variety exists in the mens section, It is no secret I have shopped there. To me that makes no sense and also leads partners and family members of cd's to question their true identity. Most cds actions don't match their words. If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? I could have hung in there (well maybe not without a lot of medication, he was more than trans) but it never stays parttime. You read it here time and time again. In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. To me that is confusing evidence that crossdressing is just a transition to the realization that the truth is more transexual than anything.

[Jessica Who]

I used to have thoughts that one day I would want to transition (this was during my early college years), however I just needed to figure myself out and I found that transitioning would not be something I would ever want to do.

[Rianna Humble]

I found that transitioning would not be something I would ever want to do.

At least we can agree on that one! I never wanted to transition either, the difference is If I hadn't started down this road, I wouldn't be alive.

[kittypw GG]

Well Kitty I will tell you this. When I worked for the state doing HIV prevention targeting the trans population I was in contact with countless trans people. That of course includes CDs. From my observations I had a lot of the CDs talk to me in confidence about thier desires. Of course they wont talk turkey around the wife! I can say that a shocking number of them were wanting to transition but the one big common factor ALWAYS came into play. Marriage. They did not want to loose thier marriage!

Now of course these were CDs that had enough confidence to at least go into the public to some degree. I would suggest that thats a pretty small percentage of the CDs because I suspect the overwelming majority hide in thier houses ONLY. Of course the ones with a bit of confidence get a taste of womanhood and the wheels start turning.

Add to it the insidious word they like to use incorrectly, ACCEPTANCE. See if they have not gained any acceptance then they tend to hide and never express themselves but if they gain some sort of acceptance (in thier words) the clock starts ticking to wanting to transition. Why do I call acceptance insidious? Well because they incorrectly add to word participatory to it. Meaning they want thier wives to be actively participatory of thier activities.

I think this is an important conversation. Many so's are so confused by this "activity". They cling to the fact that their husband is just that ..... their husband, when the truth is quite a bit farther from that. Like I said us so's are only privy to the very tip of the iceberg and when this so called "pink fog" sets in we are so confused and scared. Many find the secrets thoughts of their husbands in e-mails to others or read hints of it on forums like this. When they confront their cd...... adament denial is what they get not an honest conversation of what really drives them. Trust me............the hurt over being lied to is a much harder hurdle to get over than dealing with and faceing the truth. Sure some marriages will fail when faced with the truth but many may not. We all deserve to be in relationships where our partners respect us enough to be up front and honest. Maybe when the time comes and the cd finally confesses they are more than that and they want boobs, hormones and to live 24/7 we won't have to crumble so much from being sold a lie, or feel like we waisted the best years of our lives and will now have to face retirement alone or with someone you never really knew.

[Katesback]

Well Kitty let me say one thing. There is not a chance in hell that I would date or marry a CD. Why? Well because what you talk about all too often does come true. Another reason is I dont want the CD stuff jammed in my face, and then rammed down my mouth perputually. Of course if I say no then I am not being.... Accepting.

Crap I am all for someone being whoever they want to be but that does not mean I have to expose myself to it and finally if I marry a man I want a man 100% of the time. I dont want a man who really is a woman that has yet to come to that realitization but will as time goes by.

I guess I just dont like risks. I refuse to date an alcholic (even if they have not been drinking), I refuse to date criminals, I refuse to date addicts, and I refuse to date anyone that is trans anything! Just not worth the risks.

Katie

P.S. Kitty you noticed that when people disagree with you they either attack ya or try to discredit you. That is probably the most entertaining aspects of this forum. An example is that what I said in this post could very well get one of them so upset they will attack me and say I am not accepting, mean, am a hypochryt and watever else. Crap I am not mean I am actually a really nice person. I just keep it real and dont put pink fog around the conversation.











I think this is an important conversation. Many so's are so confused by this "activity". They cling to the fact that their husband is just that ..... their husband, when the truth is quite a bit farther from that. Like I said us so's are only privy to the very tip of the iceberg and when this so called "pink fog" sets in we are so confused and scared. Many find the secrets thoughts of their husbands in e-mails to others or read hints of it on forums like this. When they confront their cd...... adament denial is what they get not an honest conversation of what really drives them. Trust me............the hurt over being lied to is a much harder hurdle to get over than dealing with and faceing the truth. Sure some marriages will fail when faced with the truth but many may not. We all deserve to be in relationships where our partners respect us enough to be up front and honest. Maybe when the time comes and the cd finally confesses they are more than that and they want boobs, hormones and to live 24/7 we won't have to crumble so much from being sold a lie, or feel like we waisted the best years of our lives and will now have to face retirement alone or with someone you never really knew.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm not seeing any attacks though, people have pointed out very real exceptions to some sweeping generalizations.

Edit:
I'm not siding on either side.
o_o

[Marleena]

I'm not seeing any attacks though, people have pointed out very real exceptions to some sweeping generalizations.

I'm seeing a personal agenda in this thread that is just meant to scare GG's. It serves no other purpose.

[Katesback]

Scare GG? Crap it is keeping it real!!! Just like Kitty said denial is all too often the words they hear. At Least they hear the reality of CDs from me. Does that mean all are this way? Nope, but then as I said it's reality enough for me that I refuse to take such a risk.

Let me ask you this. Why is it that if you call ANY of the online CD stores and ask them what thier biggest selling items are, they will tell you that the herbal hormones are it. Aside from the fact that herbal hormones are useless I will ask you why are they the biggest sellers. Another thing, if the words of Kitty and I are skewed then why is it that you own posts in this forum 1000s of times over reinforce what we are talking about. Are we scarring the GGs. I really dont know, but at least they are hearing a distinctly possible reality they face.

Katie


P.S. This post was created two days ago. It has well over 1000 views. Any post that talkes about TS related issues, dating men, bisexuality, sex, hormones, anything that probably would more so be related to TS women gets huge numbers of views in the CD forum. Geee I wonder why that is.............






I'm seeing a personal agenda in this thread that is just meant to scare GG's. It serves no other purpose.

[Marleena]

Scare GG? Crap it is keeping it real!!! Just like Kitty said denial is all too often the words they hear. At Least they hear the reality of CDs from me. Does that mean all are this way? Nope, but then as I said it's reality enough for me that I refuse to take such a risk.

Let me ask you this. Why is it that if you call ANY of the online CD stores and ask them what thier biggest selling items are, they will tell you that the herbal hormones are it. Aside from the fact that herbal hormones are useless I will ask you why are they the biggest sellers. Another thing, if the words of Kitty and I are skewed then why is it that you own posts in this forum 1000s of times over reinforce what we are talking about. Are we scarring the GGs. I really dont know, but at least they are hearing a distinctly possible reality they face.

Katie


Too bad we can't do a poll here. The majority of Cd's here want to be a male, remain a male, but crossdress. Kitty had a bad experience, and you Katie want an alpha male! That makes it anti CD to me.

[whowhatwhen]

P.S. This post was created two days ago. It has well over 1000 views. Any post that talkes about TS related issues, dating men, bisexuality, sex, hormones, anything that probably would more so be related to TS women gets huge numbers of views in the CD forum. Geee I wonder why that is.............

That's certainly a possibility and people will eventually figure themselves out but I'm still not sure we can tell them what they are before they're ready.
Also, there is the fact that there are real posters here that simply aren't TS.

Personally, I have no stake in this.
I've decided that if I were to get involved with anyone I would tell them that if they're expecting a man 100% of the time then they're barking up the wrong tree.
Forever alone maybe, but it's honest I guess.

Edit:
Can't we all just get along?

[Marleena]

Okay Katie you edited your post. You can feel free to look at thousands of my posts and see mine are supportive of CD members. Can I say the same for yours? I kow what I will find in Kitty's for sure.

Who cares what we find interesting here the general public can read many of them it proves nothing.

Anti CD is obvious here..

[Katesback]

Kitty I have always enjoyed watching people. If you ever get a chance to observe CDs in a group it can be very interesting. How so? Well CDs when they are toghether and have no wives around will act as much like a woman as they can. CDs in a group where wives are present are the most entertaining. See they will walk this fine like where they look like a woman but will still act a lot like a man.

Why? Because after constantly denying about wanting to be a woman they figure that if they act like a man in a dress it will keep the wife at ease.

Whats even more funny is if a TS woman sits down with a group of CDs and thier wives. That my dear is truely priceless. You can see the fear in thier eyes. They will even do thing to get the TS woman out of the group as fast as possible (the word acceptance goes out the window LOL, they wont even TOLERATE the TS). If they cant they will try thier best to get her aside and tell her not to talk about TS issues! Its priceless. I mean lord knows if they wives were to hear about TS issues they might see some of those aspects in thier husbands and start to put the puzzle toghether.

Now take the same exact group of non accepting CDs and remove the wifes. They all of a sudden are very accepting of a TS girl in thier presence. They ask the question about transition, they really enjoy the presence of the TS. As a matter of fact its not uncommon for the CDs to proposition sex with the TS. How do I know this? I have been to conferences I have watched these events many a time over. I have been propositioned for sex more than I can think of.

GGs. just know that your husband will do whatever it takes to keep your marriage and I mean whatever it takes. That means anything you dont know about falls into the word whatever it takes.

Katie











I think this is an important conversation. Many so's are so confused by this "activity". They cling to the fact that their husband is just that ..... their husband, when the truth is quite a bit farther from that. Like I said us so's are only privy to the very tip of the iceberg and when this so called "pink fog" sets in we are so confused and scared. Many find the secrets thoughts of their husbands in e-mails to others or read hints of it on forums like this. When they confront their cd...... adament denial is what they get not an honest conversation of what really drives them. Trust me............the hurt over being lied to is a much harder hurdle to get over than dealing with and faceing the truth. Sure some marriages will fail when faced with the truth but many may not. We all deserve to be in relationships where our partners respect us enough to be up front and honest. Maybe when the time comes and the cd finally confesses they are more than that and they want boobs, hormones and to live 24/7 we won't have to crumble so much from being sold a lie, or feel like we waisted the best years of our lives and will now have to face retirement alone or with someone you never really knew.

[Marleena]

Kitty I have always enjoyed watching people. If you ever get a chance to observe CDs in a group it can be very interesting. How so? Well CDs when they are toghether and have no wives around will act as much like a woman as they can. CDs in a group where wives are present are the most entertaining. See they will walk this fine like where they look like a woman but will still act a lot like a man.

Why? Because after constantly denying about wanting to be a woman they figure that if they act like a man in a dress it will keep the wife at ease.

Whats even more funny is if a TS woman sits down with a group of CDs and thier wives. That my dear is truely priceless. You can see the fear in thier eyes. They will even do thing to get the TS woman out of the group as fast as possible (the word acceptance goes out the window LOL, they wont even TOLERATE the TS). If they cant they will try thier best to get her aside and tell her not to talk about TS issues! Its priceless. I mean lord knows if they wives were to hear about TS issues they might see some of those aspects in thier husbands and start to put the puzzle toghether.

Showing your true colors here. Thank you!

I'm out if any of the Cd's are brave enough (or maybe stupid enough) to continue good luck! :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Too bad we can't do a poll here. The majority of Cd's here want to be a male, remain a male, but crossdress. Kitty had a bad experience, and you Katie want an alpha male! That makes it anti CD to me.

A poll wouldn't help
..people would lie (sometimes to themselves)

I don't think its obviously anti-cd at all...
Kate shared her experience...it is a GIVEN that her perspective has a ts slant

i know that i told my wife I was a crossdresser, she divorced me, and i ended up "realizing" why i crossdressed.
There was no doubt in my mind that i WAS NOT transsexual.. i am an honest, sincere, intelligent person, and yet i somehow fooled myself...it boggles my mind to this day how i was so blind.
My own experience has clearly influenced my views. So take it or leave, that's what happened..

Transsexuality is rare. If a person crossdresses, that is "risk factor" for being ts.. that's pretty much the bottom line, isn't it??

It doesn't matter Marleena if the majority of cd's here have no interest in transition and never will(you are likely correct, they don't)...but enough do that the wives and SO's of CD's are well served to be aware of it...

Luckily its a personal thing, you can talk to your family, and i can talk to mine, and we all try to work it out
..if you are open and honest in your communication, that's basically all you can do..

[Badtranny]

and you Katie want an alpha male! That makes it anti CD to me.

There is nothing anti-CD about wanting an alpha male. I'm not attracted to feminine men or femininity in general. I like MEN. If my man wants to express a feminine side than he will have my full support, understanding, and acceptance but he won't have me as a lover anymore. I have already paid my dues trying to live my life for other people and those days are over my friend. I stand proudly and loudly as an openly transitioning TS, with no place left to hide and I'll be damned if I'm going to let somebody, anybody pull me back into a closet or give me secrets to keep.

I've noticed lately that it's become kind of trendy for the CD's to claim persecution from the TS's and GG's but I can say with some certainty that if we hated CD's we would not bother posting here. I personally love the idea of a cross-dressing man and I think more of them should be open about it. I think it's fabulous for a guy to have a feminine side and I have met some really wonderful CD's that I am proud to call friends. I would hang out with them anywhere anytime dressed drab or fab.

There is NOTHING wrong with cross-dressing. Every girl will say that it's fun to dress up sometimes and if a guy wants to dress in women's clothes, well why the hell not?

[Katesback]

By the way someone suggested taking a poll to here. Crap that would be the most unrealistic poll ever. I mean its already been stated 1000 times over that the CDs will lie to protect themselves. I mean the almost certain kiss of death for a marriage would be to say you are thinking of transitioning. So why the hell would they admit it. I mean they all LOVE thier wives. LOL. Funny thing is love is not really important in CDing except when it comes to the excuses for not being authentic. I love my wife and [I] DONT WANT TO LOOSE HER. LOL.

[BY THE WAY I have another interesting question. Why is it in the Tri Ess by laws that yoou have to be hetro male? Why do their by laws expressly say that if your are gay, taking hormones, talking of taking hormones, or talking about transition, you are no longer able to be part of the group?

Why is it that a group of people that talk so heavily about the word acceptance and discrimination can be discriminatory against other trans people?

I will answer the question. Because at Tri Ess they welcome wives and as I said earlier they will do anything to protect thier marriage even at the expense of other people and the truth.[/B]

[whowhatwhen]

By the way someone suggested taking a poll to here. Crap that would be the most unrealistic poll ever. I mean its already been stated 1000 times over that the CDs will lie to protect themselves. I mean the almost certain kiss of death for a marriage would be to say you are thinking of transitioning. So why the hell would they admit it. I mean they all LOVE thier wives. LOL. Funny thing is love is not really important in CDing except when it comes to the excuses for not being authentic. I love my wife and [I] DONT WANT TO LOOSE HER. LOL.

[BY THE WAY I have another interesting question. Why is it in the Tri Ess by laws that yoou have to be hetro male? Why do their by laws expressly say that if your are gay, taking hormones, talking of taking hormones, or talking about transition, you are no longer able to be part of the group?

Why is it that a group of people that talk so heavily about the word acceptance and discrimination can be discriminatory against other trans people?

I will answer the question. Because at Tri Ess they welcome wives and as I said earlier they will do anything to protect thier marriage even at the expense of other people and the truth.[/B]



I am A Crossdresser; -defined as an individual, typically a heterosexual male, who occasionally chooses to make a social role presentation considered appropriate for persons of the opposite genetic sex, for the purpose of personal expression, without the intention of entering a program leading to sex reassignment surgery, and without attempting to attract a partner of the same genetic sex.




An international social and support group for heterosexual crossdressers, their partners, the spouses of married crossdressers and their families."


Wow.
Homophobia and transphobia from... transgender people?

[Katesback]

Ya paid your dues eaa? I did as well. And like you I have no desire to re-live that shit all over again. Sadly the CDs that would want to date TS girls are and would be even more assuming and pressureing (than with a GG) on the TS girl that they could do all thier CD stuff as much as they want. The thought of dating is TS is so enticing because the TS will want to play dress up games. Want to have sex with them dressed as a girl. Would want to..............

You get the picture. NO CHANCE IN HELL I WANT TO DEAL WITH IT. I have to give some GGs a lot of credit for putting up with it. I mean that dreaded word called Acceptance is nothing more than a never ending push for a free for all ticket to CD whatever and whenever they want and of course they expect you to participate.


P.S. The post now has nearly 3000 views in TWO days!!!!!!! And I still see people suggesting that CDs that are really TS are a extreme minority!! LOL Why do I come here? Crap where else can you see so much entertainment? Wondering if I should try to go to a Tri Ess meeting for fun. Wonder if they would be ACCEPTING. Opppps sorry I am not a Wive of a CD and I am TS so I CANT GO. They discriminate! LOL

Whats even more funny is that some of the people here say I am mean, bitter, whatever. You should read some of the posts I put in the TS forum. I am far more harsh with those people since most of them have screws loose or missing. Here its more about the lieing and denials.





There is nothing anti-CD about wanting an alpha male. I'm not attracted to feminine men or femininity in general. I like MEN. If my man wants to express a feminine side than he will have my full support, understanding, and acceptance but he won't have me as a lover anymore. I have already paid my dues trying to live my life for other people and those days are over my friend. I stand proudly and loudly as an openly transitioning TS, with no place left to hide and I'll be damned if I'm going to let somebody, anybody pull me back into a closet or give me secrets to keep.

I've noticed lately that it's become kind of trendy for the CD's to claim persecution from the TS's and GG's but I can say with some certainty that if we hated CD's we would not bother posting here. I personally love the idea of a cross-dressing man and I think more of them should be open about it. I think it's fabulous for a guy to have a feminine side and I have met some really wonderful CD's that I am proud to call friends. I would hang out with them anywhere anytime dressed drab or fab.

There is NOTHING wrong with cross-dressing. Every girl will say that it's fun to dress up sometimes and if a guy wants to dress in women's clothes, well why the hell not?

[Nigella]

Why do some members have to make threads so personal, they are doing a disservice to the OP and others who have responded. I really would like to say to some, wind your neck in, its not about you.

sorry OP thread closed