Is It Possible

[melissacd]

Is it possible that part of the reason that so many people feel that men who try to dress as women are gay is because:

a) While women dress up to look nice and feel confident about themselves, sometimes the reason they dress up is to attract male attention - so following that logic people assume that men create a feminine illusion to attract men - after all why the heck else would they do it!

and/

b) Men are ashamed that they could find a man dressed up as a woman attractive to them and so they are bothered by what they feel are homosexual leanings - after all why would a man be attacted to a man in a dress unless he had hidden homosexual tendancies - that rips to the heart of their homophobic feelings and feelings of insecurity about their sexuality

Is it not possible for a man to appreciate the beauty of another man (cross dresser) without their being any sexual feelings tied to it? Women appreciate the beauty of other women and no one assumes that they are lesbians. It is a strange world.

I really hate the fact that people immediately think that a man who wants to express his femininity is gay. I have long felt that femininity and masculinity are states of mind and not biological limitations. A pefectly hetero male can and should be able to be both masculine and feminine (in whatever form that takes) and still be considered a normal human being.

Sorry guys...just ranting a bit about how unfair and judgemental our society can be.

[TGMarla]

I think there is probably something to that argument, although there is probably something more to it than only that as well. When, as a guy, I look a woman who is nicely dressed and attractive, I pick her clothes apart (so to speak) and I have sexual thoughts about her. Heck, I guess it's only natural. One is the woman in me speaking, the other is clearly the man. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that the CD in question is passable. She's probably dressed very nicely. That's going to turn some heads, and those heads are likely going to be male. Women's clothing has evolved in ways that attract the opposite sex to it. Let's face it, it works. So here we have a guy dressed in a fashion that attracts males to him. Some other guy sees him/her, and notices her because of the way she is dressed, wears her hair, smells nice, walks with a wiggle, has sexy shoes on....When this guy who's head's been turned finds out that he's suddenly been sexually drawn to and stimulated by another man, he'll be shocked, angry, and likely harbor some homophobic resentment. :eek: Why has this male done this to me? He must be gay, because he's dressed in a manner to attract men. I think I'll beat the crap out of him. :mad: I think it's a very valid point. Not necessarily true, but valid.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Dear, you have hit the sore spot that I had for so long. It has taken a lot of prayer and the love of CD friends to finally dispell from my mind that awful idea that I must be gay because I want to do this. I think I only started really having fun when I got over the societal misconception. If I had trouble with it no wonder the world and our wives do too.


Emily Ann

[Lauren_T]

While it's not necessarily true across the board, you hit the target there, Melissa.

The average male, still emotionally in the stone age, jumps to simplest explanation: women wear all that frou-frou stuff to attract men, so that guy in the skirt & heels must want to attract men (since no one would actually want to wear unmanly things), therefore he's a queer! QED!

Laughably stupid, yes. But it is a prime example of how simpletons "reason."

And your b) is equally on the mark as well. Simpleton sees male dressed as female. Has incomprehensible attraction to person exhibiting signs and symbols of femininity. Reactive homophobia ensues. Since admitting attraction to male is forbidden, denial leads naturally to projection: 'It's his fault I'm attracted to him, since he dressed like that," thereby rationalizing attack on the "offender," nonverbal, verbal or physical, depending on that individual's intellect and aggressive tendencies.

Excellent insight there, Melissa. You ever consider a career in psychology? :)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I think what you've described is definitely a part. Another part is that manhood is less defined by what it is that by what it isn't: not feminine, not gay. As Joe Jackson once wrote, is rough and rugged, or cultural and clean?

As boys we teased the weaker boys about being both, long before we had any inkling of what homosexuality is. So there's a deeply ingrained sense that "not manly" = feminine = gay. So when they see a man in a dress they connect the dots. (Of course, there's a question about how that association came to be, but that's a different discussion.)

[miss_billy]

Is
Women appreciate the beauty of other women and no one assumes that they are lesbians. It is a strange world.

Not to sound synical but I've found that whilst most women comment on how nice another woman is, this has been down to the fact that they are more envious of another womans beuty rather than accepting of it i.e I wish I had breasts, legs bottom like her. ( "She's gorgious tends to translate to I wish I looked like her.) thats why many womens mags sell so well.

[vanessa48]

When I am Vanessa, I would love the company of another woman,cd,or tv,ts. I want to feel totally like a woman would feel. I have no interest in attracting men, but would give anything for a woman that would go out with me, and have a loving relationship with me as a man, and as a woman, not many of those around.

[Michelle Hart]

Since many of us have a stong desire to look act and experiance things that women do the "full effect" as it were. We long to be accepted as people not just girls. For many of us our goal is to be believable when we go out so we have additional weight on us because one false move and were sunk.

Men generally have very fragile eago's. If our apearance is spot on and we are "perfect" when an average guy see's us and then he picks up that one flaw or senses somthing is just not quite right for whatever reason.

Boom! His eago has been slamed...." I should have know she was a He, I can't believe she fooled me, You deliberatly tricked me, etc"

Now If said guy is not very secure in his sexuality he all of a sudden has become threatened by us. Even though we may not have seen him or even looked his way. Percieved danger is as real as iminent danger.

So now we as Girls have unwittingly acosted his manhood, weather we know it or not. So in effct our desire to be as authentinc as possible has lead to someone elses discomfort. Real or imagined.

Is that our fault, not realy. Sadly we are the ones who get the ridicule when MR "I dont know where Istand and cant figure it out" looses it because the beauty he was admireing was not what he initially perceved it to be.....

That's sombody elses story and I bame it on them...:angel:

[jo_ann]

I think that's partially true.. I don't think of myself as gay, but there are times I fantasize of dressing up and pleasing a man. I sometimes think that GG's are so different that it would be so much easier and more fun to just hang out with a guy and be his girlfriend.

[susandrea]

Honestly? I think most of the general public is so in the dark about CDs that if they ever see one they automatically think "Drag Queen" because that is what they are more familiar with. MOST of the public only has the experience of seeing Drag Queens on TV and in the movies, or men Disguised as women (Mrs. Doubtfire, Tootsie, ect.).

So, since it can probably be ruled out that the CD they run into isn't in a disguise, they're lumped into the Drag Queen/Gay catagory out of sheer unfamiliarity of what a usual CD is all about. They may even be right once in awhile. :eek:

The fact is, Drag Queens and effeminate gay men are out there in greater numbers than straight CDs, both on the street and in the media. I hate mentioning that jerk Jerry Springer again, but there you go.

When I first started researching CDs, I found that nearly everyone I knew thought I meant "Drag Queen" and therefore "Gay", and needed to be educated as to the difference between them and a straight CD.

[Rachel Morley]

I really hate the fact that people immediately think that a man who wants to express his femininity is gay.

I couldn't agree more :mad:

And TGMarla, you are on the money! :)

[Michelle Hart]

I agree Jo_ann. For me I become so mentally focused that the male side of me just fades into the background as I develop this seperate but equal personality.

As for Drag queens Susandrea is right on. Popular myth/culture relagates us to that catagory even thought we are a completly seperate one.

[KathrynW]

I really hate the fact that people immediately think that a man who wants to express his femininity is gay.
I think most everyone who reads this forum also hates this fact. Is it likely to ever change? Not hardly...:thumbsdn:

[nancy58]

I was shocked years ago to hear a woman say that women dress up for other women. I don't remember it all now, but she said something like women do this because they notice each other's clothing, hairstyle, etc. It makes sense. Men will be interested in a woman even if she wears a gunny sack.

As to the "gay question": My first coming-out conversation was with a psychotherapist who had counseled my wife and me on another matter early in our marriage. He pretty well confirmed for me that I am not gay. Convincing my wife of that has been another matter, and sometimes she teases me, other times she asks me if I might not be repressing some latent homosexuality. I have once or twice let her know how much I don't like these intimations and questions, and I basically just try to ignore it. I figure she'll give it up some day. After all, when we are intimate, there is no question as to my real gender.

Don't let them wear you down. You know what you feel, and the others don't.

Nancy

[gina13]

Hi Melissa,
Yes this is a pertinent inquiry! Yes it is unfair that society predominately stigmatizes a male who chooses or more often needs to express their feminine side. Steryotypes and labels are wretched indeed. Unfortunately,
we are all guilty of the same things. whether consiously or not. ie.
being afraid to share your true self with others because we assume that "they are all going to think that we are gay" is a form of generalization that steryotypes all men
into the aforementioned category...
As with everything and everyone the full spectrum of perspectives and possibilities is infinite.
I believe that we have to initially give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
If you wish to share your personal self with another let your instincts guide your heart. Reckless confessions usually end in disaster. But calculated genuine revelation and honesty with sympathetic or understanding "others"
will reward your patience.
FYI I feel that I have gained these insights from being "outed" by a cruel ggirlfriend who I confided in... when it didnt work out she thought that she
would hurt me by revealing my dirty laundry so to speak.
Obviously, i encountered the immature people who love to elevate themselves by degrading others...
Yes it was very difficult to face up to the looks and gossip.
At the same time I realized that I had to either deny it or embrace it.
I chose the latter...
When I became honest with myself and others. The real friends and genuine people appeared. honesty begets honesty... what seemed to be a social disaster turned out to be a treasured gift on the path of self discovery, and
the discovery of kind supportive real people in the world who transcend. steryotypes and judgement. whew....talk about crossroads!
sorry for the rant but thats what your post brought to the surface 4 me.
Thank you 4 sharing.... everyone.
Keep on thinking free....

[DawnRodgers]

"a) While women dress up to look nice and feel confident about themselves, sometimes the reason they dress up is to attract male attention - so following that logic people assume that men create a feminine illusion to attract men - after all why the heck else would they do it!"

Of course, this is your postulation but ihow true is it? When you say that sometimes they do it to attract male attention, youi make it seem the lesser reason - but is it? Maybe the major reason to dress up is to attract male attention. There are many ways a male can dress as a woman but when he tries to look as much a woman as possible, indeed to pass as a woman, the reasons, I think, are mainly sexual. Either to please himself or to, hopefully, attract a sexual advance from either a male or female. Yes, it may be more comfortable (in heels, full makeup?) or feel more natural (fingers and toes polished, "breasts", dress) but let's be hpnest with ourselves. I think that most of us dress with the ultimate hope and dream of fully passing as a woman. Else why go to all of that trouble to look like a woman. Just put on a dress and heels and go out without a wig, makeup and heels if you thinkj a dress and lingerie are what makes you comfortable. Let's face it, it is the whole appearance that is what we are trying to achieve. The only reason that females go to the lengths that some of us do is to be attractive to a future mate.

"b. "Men are re ashamed that they could find a man dressed up as a woman attractive to them and so they are bothered by what they feel are homosexual leanings - after all why would a man be attacted to a man in a dress unless he had hidden homosexual tendancies - that rips to the heart of their homophobic feelings and feelings of insecurity about their sexuality""

Again you assume that to be true. Why would a man be ashamed to find that a man dressed as a woman attractive if that man dressed a s a woman is totally attractive because he really looks like a woman. Again it is the effort that the man dressed as a woman goes to to look totally like a woman. Many of us do, indeed, look pretty good as a woman and we certainly put out every last effort to pass. If a man is attracted to someone who looks like a woman it would be perfectly natural. After all isn't that the reason a womn dresses up to look alluring and sexy. To attract the opposite sex? Yes they may make another woman envious but few women would say "Hey, look at her all dressed up. Boy would I like ti take her to bed".
Dawn

[gina13]

The best feeling is when(for those lucky enough to share of have shared this side of ourselves with GGirls) a ggirl gets jealous of one of us!!!

[Adele 2005]

Hi Melissa,

Ignorance and lazy thinking probably answers your question, and is behind most prejudice and stereotyping.

If people assume you're gay because of cd'ing don't let it eat you up; it's a waste of energy and it's not your problem.

On the other hand, being gay and and cd'ing also raises it's own set of prejudices, but that's probably a subject best left for another thread!

I really like your vision of a society where expressions of masculinity and femininity regardless of biological sex are considered interchangeable and 'normal' - utopian perhaps? But how do we start to educate a society that doesn't want to listen?

[melissacd]

Adele,

Ignorance and laziness are very much a part of it. An unwillingness to open one's mind to other possibilities, us/them thinking, tribal tendancies. I agree that it is not worth worrying about as the only one I can really change is me.

I am glad that you like my vision of a society where all forms of expression are acceptable. Our biology is just that, biology. It should not govern how we express our character. I have masculine and feminine tendencies and I want to feel free in our so called free society to express the whole spectrum of who I am. As I gain more and more acceptance that this other part of me is okay I find that I deal with the world in a much better, much nicer way.

I guess we start educating the rest of society by educating ourselves, accepting ourselves and then carrying our message forward collectively. While some in society do not want to listen, I suspect that many more would hear us out given half a chance. Prejudice will always be there, but sending out the right message to more and more people will change the way most think.

If we are confident about who we are then that is half the battle.

Huggs
Melissa

[KathrynW]

I am glad that you like my vision of a society where all forms of expression are acceptable. Our biology is just that, biology. It should not govern how we express our character.
This is all well and good, but I suppose the bottom line is...
while out in society, expressing your femme side, do the opinions of others affect how you feel? Do you care what others think of you? If not, then great, more power to you. Unfortunately, I don't think most (or many) of us can easily dismiss the opinions of others in society this easily. ;)

[melissacd]

Kathryn,

You are correct. I am not stating how it is I am saying how I wish things were. I am also wishing that I had the strength/courage to live as I want to live. Maybe someday I will. I certainly understand where you are coming from though.

Just expressing my wishes, not my reality.

Huggs
Melissa

[Kimberly]

Unfortunately, I don't think most (or many) of us can easily dismiss the opinions of others in society this easily.
Of course we can't... I believe this is the basis of our society: that we seek mutual congratulations about everything we do! Therefore, the "norm" transpires from this, as does the "abnormal." Crossdressing isn't a subject that is out there at the forefront of society's arguements, and I believe gender identity should be! (for another thread though... :p) Therefore the differences we can make to people's judgements, for the moment, can only be on a one to one basis...

Yes, most of us cannot dismiss the opinions of those we meet from day to day -- even when I'm not dressed, and the people who I'm talking to don't know my gender expression, they make jokes about my possibility of crossdressing, and view it in that humourous way. I play along, but am always thinking two things: "If only they actually knew...", and, "Why are they viewing it in humour? This is quite a serious subject."

Although, humour is always a good reliever AND helper to an arguement. If you can put foward a message AND make people laugh, you've already brought them round to your point of view ;)

xx

[jo_ann]

I was shocked years ago to hear a woman say that women dress up for other women. I don't remember it all now, but she said something like women do this because they notice each other's clothing, hairstyle, etc

This is absolutely true. women are extremely competitive, extremely katy.. they are always trying to look better than their freinds/co-workers. Can't remember if it was the recent maxim or FHM magazine, but there was a list of 100 things you don't know about women, and one of them was "if she gets a short hair cut, she doesn't care about you anymore".. Also, ever notice that when a woman does get a short haircut, all her friends are like "oh it's so cute", but what they're really saying is "good, I have a better chance of getting a man than you now". Anyone that's been married can attest to all of this, women really become a slouch once they have security. I think my wife wears makeup maybe twice a year now, which is usually family holidays.