Influences On My Generation?

[Tamara Croft]

I was thinking the other day how TV (pardon the pun) could have possibly, subconciously, affected the way I perceive 'men in womens clothes'.

I know I live with a CD, but this is different and I'm wondering if things on the TV are affecting the younger generation in becoming more accepting.

So let's look at the evidence...

In the 70's, on a saturday night (religiously) we (dad, mum and me) always watched comedies like, Benny Hill, The Two Ronnies, Dick Emery and the one I remember most is Kenny Everett 'It's all in the best possible taste'. Now what stood out for me in all of these shows that I can remember, they all, in some part of the show, dressed up as women and I, back then was probably only 7 years old, thought this was really funny, but at the same time didn't think it was wrong either. I mean what does a 7 year old know about fishnet stockings at that age and whether it's right or wrong for a man to wear them.

Todays TV, shows more and more of this every day and it seems to have become quite the 'norm' and the younger generation don't seem to have a problem with it. For me, I teach my children that everyone has a right to be who they want to be and it isn't up to us to decide if it's right or wrong. If my children came up to me and told me they were gay or CD's, then that is their right and I'd be ok with it. But having said that, I wonder, if I hadn't watched these programs years ago, I'd have a different attitude to things now.

So what do you think? do you think watching TV in your younger years has changed the way you perceive things unlike the older generation who didn't really have such TV programs?

[JoAnnDallas]

TV, like any other medium, inspires Knowledge and with knowledge comes understanding. So in that respect, I say yes, it helped. It opened your eyes and exposed you to other points of view. The more knowledgeble your are, the more understanding you become. With understanding you can see problems from more than one side and fear difference less and less.
Only a closed mind will want things to stay the same and fear anything that is out of their norm.

[Shannon]

Tamara,
I understand your point-of-view, and I don't necessary disagree with it. OTOH, I think that because TV programs that show men wearing women's clothes are usually done to get a laugh, it also promotes a stereotype -- that this is something that isn't to be taken seriously, and a man dressed up like a woman is doing it as a joke, for laughs, and such.

[Lauren_T]

Shannon, yours is certainly a valid point, but I feel there's a flip side to it as well... When attempting to persuade people to open their minds regarding subjects they tend to avoid, humour, whether parody, satire, or what-have-you, is often the best way to break the ice...

I mean. We certainly want a lot more than to merely be laughed at, but if the masses see that we can take a joke, that CDing can be a lighthearted thing, not some grim, sombre subject, then we've made progress, don't you think? :)

[Tamara Croft]

Shannon, I'm not really refering to the point of the actual shows (laughing at men in womens clothes) but more to the fact that it didn't bother me and I never once thought there was anything wrong with it. That's the point I was hoping to get across, that although, yes it was funny to watch, it didn't phase me either. For example, recently, Tam (my SO) has started wearing pink slippers around the house, can you imagine her doing that whilst living with her parents? They would probably 'assume' she was 'gay'. But here, it's the 'norm' and our children aren't even phased by it, they do however think it's kinda funny, but not in a way that offends her. Does that make any sense?

[Adele 2005]

Hi Tamara,

Mentioning Kenny Everett brings back memories of sitting down to watch his show on Thames TV (London) on a Thursday evening with my older brother and sister. It was risque for the times, and more often than not my mum would start Hoovering the front room during the show to ruin our viewing pleasure. I think she disapproved! Captain Kremmen! Sid Snot! Gizzard Puke! I recall wanting to be more like Cleo Roccos than Cupid Stunt though! Great stuff.

Now that I've baffled the non-UK forum members, I guess the answer is "yes", tv has and does affect they way I perceive the world. Television has become the most powerful media in the world, and the messages it carries (overt or hidden) must surely have an impact on society? There seems to be more discussion and coverage of issues such as gender and sexuality in the mainstream current affairs and documentary programmes, which may help to break taboos and educate people. I have a slight problem with the portrayal of gay people in some dramas, which often appear to be token stereotypes (Coronation Street, Emmerdale Farm!), but at least there are gay characters now. It wouldn't have happened in Albert Tatlock's day! And isn't it weird hearing people use the "I'm the only gay in the village!" catchphrase from Little Britain? However, there's also some great writing like Queer As Folk which is more challenging and really asks the audience to think more deeply.

If the sum result is more people adopting an accepting and considerate attitude like yours Tamara, then that really is something to be grateful for.

... But, sadly I can't help worrying that there's still a lot of hate crimes and abuse directed toward gay, tg, and cd people. Society's still got a long, long way to go.

Perhaps we need to get the opinions on this from pre-1970's generations to say if attitudes have changed so much?

[Tamara Croft]

I just found this pic of Kenny Everett from the bbc website ;) and what he used to look like dressed as Cupid Stunt.... LOL and I've just realised what that anagram actually means :eek:

[Lauren_T]

...
and I've just realised what that anagram actually means :eek:

Well, ~T~, you do know I'm a nitpicker, so I'll fair burst if I don't point out that's not an anagram, it's a Spoonerism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoonerism), ...

I like wordplay, so I noticed it instantly... y'know, that name wouldn't've made it past the network censors here in the States, no indeedy... :p

[Adele 2005]

That picture is brilliant Tamara - I want to go back to the '70's! :D

[Tamara Croft]

Lauren, just one thing for you... :slap: :tongueout

[Lauren_T]

...
I work with some young and aggressive lads and whilst on the whole they are nice blokes some do still seem to be very Homophobic and even more anti TV its almost like gays have become more acceptable than TV's maybe because they outnumber us, any thought's
Love Jen.Well, Jen - who hasn't wondered why we still get homophobic kids in this allegedly 'enlightened' age? I think that what Homer told Apu about kids might provide a clue:

"Kids are great, Apu! You teach them to hate the same things you hate and they practically raise themselves, what with the Internet and all." :rolleyes: :p

On why gay can be OK and TV not-OK? I'll confess to having studied this very thing for many years and I've made a significant finding in this matter.

Since the Civil Rights era, group identity politics has gained the upper hand in Western society. First it was 'Discrimination against black people is wrong.' Then, 'Discrimination against women is wrong.' Then, 'Discrimination against gays is wrong.'
...along with other groups along the way...

It wasn't planned, but that mode of thought has caused a growing social issue that has gone unnoticed; instead of eliminating prejudice, it simply shifts it to someone else.

When prohibitions on discrimination only against specific groups are so heavily emphasised, the human mind being what it is, kids (and to be fair, many adults also) assume the false corollary that 'if someone isn't a member of any of the groups we're told not to discriminate against, then they're fair game.'

Sadly, no one in any position of influence over any portion of the Western educational establishment is sufficiently versed in social psychology to recognise the ever-increasing need to steer the message of tolerance to encompass most of humankind: 'Discrimination against people who are different is wrong.' :(

A simpler, truer, more humane message, innit?

[Shannon]

Tamara -- I agree, makes perfect sense. Part of how we learn when we are children is observing our parents reaction to things. Accepting, laughing 'with' and no 'at', probably helps alot. In the U.S. in the late 60's there was a brilliant black comedian, Flip Wilson (recently passed). One of his more memorable characters was "Geraldine" -- a very stereotypical black woman of the late 60's. I recall watching with my parents (by this time I was in high school) -- we all enjoyed it so much. And reflecting back on it now, it was the character Geraldine that was making us laugh, more so than Flip being dressed up.

Yes Lauren, I agree that humor can help reduce the tension, and I certainly don't want CrossDressing to be wrapped in somber, depressive clothing!

So I think we are in violent agreement on this!

[Lauren_T]

Lauren, just one thing for you... :slap: :tongueoutWatsamatta, ~T~, you never slap me anymore... it's someone else, innit?? :cry:

[Tamara Croft]

Watsamatta, ~T~, you never slap me anymore... it's someone else, innit?? :cry:Nope... that was just for you missy!!! want another one huh? :slap: bwahahhahaha.....

[robinLynn]

tamara ur are right but the times have changed all around for everyone. i was raised what dad said went and that was that period i have learned to evolve away from that im more liberal than my forefathers

[Jacqui]

On the premier episode of "The War at Home" on FOX, a teenage son needs to take his mom's car to a party with his friend. Only problem is, he doesn't have a car or a license, and the neighbors apparently know it.

When the parents are out, he dresses up in his mom's clothes, dons her wig, makeup, and drives his friend to the party.

Upon returning to his house, he gets out of the car and while walking to the front door, is secretly discovered by his younger brother!

The younger brother tells his father, Dave (Michael Rappaport) that his brother dressed in mom's clothes.
The dad then goes to his room and questions him.

The kid thinks to himself (a) if I tell them that I just dressed like mom to take the car so that the neighbors wouldn't squeal, they'll probably ground me for a year!

b) but if I tell them that I just love mom's clothes, they'll just take me to a psychologist. (words to that effect)

"So, son, is it true you dressed in mom's clothes?"
The answer is now apparent.
"Yeah, dad, I just love the way mom's clothes feels on my skin!"

In the show, this kid is only about 16! It is also revealed that his friend is a closet gay who secretly admired him while dressed.

Later in the episode, or it could have been in episode 2, the FOX Censor comes on in tuxedo and bow tie (close up). He says, "The views on crossdressing presented on this show do not necessarily reflect the views of the FOX Broadcasting Network."

Then he turns to walk away from the camera, and as he does, he's wearing fishnet stockings, black heels and does a nice little wiggle!

I thought this was one of the funniest things I've ever seen on TV, but I also wonder how the general public reacted to this episode.

[Julie]

I think TV has an effect on the general public to an extent but family and friends will have a much greater effect on you and could completely counter whatever the media in general puts out there.

I grew up in a pretty uptight family and neighborhood. The idea of someone being gay or transgendered was horrific. If there was a TV show that depicted this in a positive light I would have heard some pretty negative comments about it. Benny Hill was okay because it was comedy. But outside of comedy or something showing complete disgust regarding gays and TGs, there's no way we would have been allowed to watch it.

[Tamara Croft]

tamara ur are right but the times have changed all around for everyone. i was raised what dad said went and that was that period i have learned to evolve away from that im more liberal than my forefathersUhm? can you explain what you mean, because the question was how watching television influenced your upbringing, not how your father raised you.

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Tamara,

When I was growing up shows like the Two Ronnies that had crossdressing as part of the comedy act did make me laugh, but I don't think it made me think differently about men wearing women's clothes.
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6691/tworons123oy.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9462/40874654barkerpa203body2ah.jpg

I used to think that those guys on TV were different to me, because they were just "playing it up for a laugh" but I wanted to really wear the clothes for myself. I know your question wasn't specifically about cding:

So what do you think? do you think watching TV in your younger years has changed the way you perceive things unlike the older generation who didn't really have such TV programs?
Well....short answer, yes....because TV was our books. Now that I'm older (and wiser? :confused: ) I've read more and so what I learned when I was younger as been replaced by what I know now.

I guess what I'm saying is my perception is based upon what I think I know and the last reputable thing I've read :)

[jo_ann]

I think transgender is WAYY more common and accepted than it used to be.. I remember once watching an interview with a female impersonator saying that it used to be just dressing up and walking on stage was enough, now it's like "yeah ok your wearing a dress, now entertain me", so the demand for talent has certainly increased. The one thing I don't like that hasn't changed is that they use transgender as a tool of comedy even to this day. I'm all for laughing at pretty much anything, but it's rare that this subject is ever taken seriously. "oh look at the man in a dress, ha ha.. he's so funny, look how he tries to walk like a woman, he looks like a dude in a dress, he's not passing at all". To some, in public, it becomes a game of "who can point out the tranny first". I'm sure we'll all get along someday.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I tend to agree. Granted I live in the SF Bay Area, which is historically tolerent, but I've generally had nothing but good experiences while out en femme. It's interesting to see CDing popping up in various media, in fairly even-handed ways. A few months ago a CD appeared briefly an in scene of a soap opera. There's the T-Mobile commercial. And currently there's a comic strip (http://www.comics.com/creators/lila/) where the female protagonist is about to date a guy she met crossdressed as a Halloween party. (We'll see how the plotline is treated.)

To Lauren's question about gay is OK and TV isn't quite OK, I agree that past civil rights movements have focused on specific groups rather than the idea that discriminating against anyone who's different is wrong. (That said, I think a lot of people have internalize the broader message.) But the other half is we CDs have gone out an earned public respect the way other minority groups have -- and I'm just as guilty as anyone else. If the estimate 5% of men who are regular crossdressers all came out at once, do you think we'd be thought of differently?

Being the butt of jokes, still means we've got a ways to go, but it's better than being thought of as monsters. Part of the problem is that -- for better or worse -- the public face of TG are usually TSs, because like racial minorities and gays, they don't have a closet to retreat into. But there's not really CD activists or public figures. Sure there's Eddie Izzard, but it's easy for folks to assume CDing is just his schtick.

Anyway, enough ranting for tonight... :D

[letsdance GG]

TV certainly played a part in my growing up.

My Mom is very religious and rarley let us lookat the TV let alone watch it. She hated KISS with a passion and I loved them! My Father was not only homophobic but a bigot and I sworre I'd never treat anyone the way I saw him.

High School it was all for fun when the Football players swapped with the cheerleaders for Homecoming. I wonder to this day if a few of them(football players) were happy to dress the way they wanted in public without getting the crap beat out of them.

Yes times have changed, but the basic stupid,closeminded human has not. Anything percieved to be a threat to "thiers" will be met with stupidity. Take a look at little kids on the playground. One kid always wants what another has and will take it. We are taught to protect what's "ours" very early on.Keeping secrets if you will, for fear someone might "find out" and steal whatever it is you want to keep to yourself.



One of the first people I ever saw crossdressed on TV was one of the Wyans brothers on "In living Color" in the early 90's. He was Sha nay nay. a very vocal person who would "slap you Sha nay nay style: if you were in her way. Yes, it was comedy but I never once saw him as being gay. Distubed young man, yeah, he's nuttier than a fruitcake, but not gay.

I actually hate the term gay. It used to mean happy go lucky, what a shame that term was hijacked and turned into something that has negative connotations to it.

[gina13]

what a great discussion!
yes it seems that cd is becoming more acceptable. ie i was talking to a mid 20 something construction worker in drab...the converstation turned to halloween and costumes and being a girl...to my surprise he started telling me stories of his college experiences in a fraternity where for a time they had all become females 24/7 for a month or so. the story was to say the least very unexpected and interesting.. the funniest part was his anecdote that he had to stop because his sore behind made him walk funny. with a wink of course.
yes tv is having a semi positive effect on the perception of us it seems.
Has anyone seen the advertisment with Captain Kirk trying on pumps?
so funny... also mad tv has a lot of cd. good humor also...