hey.....GGs do wear pants, so........

[Inna]

I have seen posts repeatedly arguing that if GGs can wear pants then it should be absolutely fine for Crossdresser to wear a skirt!

And that is fine.........but!

this argument is absurd.....or is it!

Well, in my personal opinion, and by personal I mean "educated and socially derived attitude" I believe that comparison is false to most degree but yet not totally false.

In the general sense, without going into history of why, wearing clothes has no particular motive other then our ability to regulate comfort, protection against the environment and most of all, hiding our sexual organs from plain view although lately I could argue this as well :)

For a GG, and please I want some GGs here, clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.

For a CD wearing female clothing seems to be pointed to one direction and that is to appear, feel and exude image of a woman, therefore even though not sexual in nature it really is gendersexual in presentation. Therefore the name, Cross-Dresser

as in the schematic below:

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


In the historical context however GGs graduated to wearing pants simply because pants meant power, and unjust control, and therefore woman's lib movement did what it needed to do, get women into pants!

So what is your take on this:

[Miranda-E]

historicly is was about power and rebellion. today that power is a fixed issue, history is forgotten, and its just a double standard, one which is great and I love.
Its one of the few perks of all the work.

[Stephenie S]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women wear pants. So women are crossdressers. We've all heard this a hundred times over.

SO WHAT?

If YOU want to wear a skirt, go ahead. There are no laws, neither God's nor man's, prohibiting this. So stop your whining about how much better women have it and go get dressed, for goodness sake!

Stephie

[Momarie]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.

[girlygirly]

historicly is was about power and rebellion. today that power is a fixed issue, history is forgotten, and its just a double standard, one which is great and I love.
Its one of the few perks of all the work.
Men don't need to put on a dress to rebel against women. We can just stay out late, lose interest in sex, or start dating men.

[Inna]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.

Momarie, thanks so much in engaging in the conversation, and if you do offend anyone it isn't because you are not true but that someone is riding on a testosterone stallion spewing fire and spraying bullets of masculinity. We need more of girls engaging in the conversations here, it will bring the reality and femaleness to the forth front and educate those who seek to know, and then those who don't want to hear it, well, they don't have to read it! :p

[Karren H]

Didn't your mother ever scold you that just because someone else got to do something doesn't mean you get to do something?

[kimdl93]

I agree with you. I don't put any value on the "but women wear pants" argument. Its a simple rationalization, not a justification. If a GM wants to wear women's clothing simply for esthetic purposes, he's certainly entitled to do so, because he chooses to. He doesn't have to point to women to justify his choice.

Of course, like many CDers, I choose to wear womens clothing for more than esthetics. Its my feeble attempt to express my inner self, by emulating or presenting as a woman to the extent of my ability. I don't have to justify my expression to anyone.

[Cynthia Anne]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.

I don't think anyone should be offended for you telling it the way it is! I would hate to dress in fem and try to express myself as a man!:eek: Hugs!

[YorkshireRose]

Hi Inna great post and one as you may have read in a previous post of mine I have strong views on. On a personal level I've never found ggs look attractive in pants but that is purely from an asthetic view point. However I stand by anyone's right male or female to wear what ever they like and here in lies my issue. Men have many reasons for wanting to come accross as a girl, some sexual, some as an expression of their female side and some because they just love female attire and a plethora of other reasons.

If a gg decides they want to partake in activities more associated with men, ie football, until recent years going to the pub or chooses to wear jeans, pants etc, they won't be any fear of ridicule or assault. This is obviously how it should be, however should man want to do the polar opposite then it is taboo and against social norms.

So yes Inna I am very supportive of ggs and am a great believer in equality and the right to be able to express yourself with no fear of ridicule. If there was people wouldn't feel the need to hide CD from SOs and the world at large.

Charlotte

[Presh GG]

I've been told [ yes, by cd friends ] that I look damn hot in my jeans because I have the natural figure for them.
Thanks Momarie, I don't have the energy for this one again.

Presh GG

[BRANDYJ]

Part of what started women wearing pants was World War II. Mnay have heard of Rosey the riviter. That was coined when many women went to work int e war time factories to help build the weapons of war. Due to saftey issues as well as comfort in doing laboor that uintill the war, was mostly men's work, women began wearing pants and over-alls in the factories.

I too think the argument that women can wear pants so we should be able to wear skirts and dresses, is absurb and childish , quite frankly. In the first place, the average man wearing a dress of skirt and not trying to look like a woman with the help of padding, makeup and a wig, is just plain rediculous looking to me. Why would we want to see that every day on the streets! So I kind of like things the way they are. That is, mern in pants and women in either pants,dress or skirt, whatever she likes. IUnlike men, she is beautiful in anything she might wear.

[Foxglove]

I have seen posts repeatedly arguing that if GGs can wear pants then it should be absolutely fine for Crossdresser to wear a skirt!

And that is fine.........but!

this argument is absurd.....or is it!



Hi, Inna. Yes, the argument is absurd. But you have to understand: it's the last ditch effort on the part of a guy who wants to put on a dress, but can't quite convince himself that it's OK to do so. How do I know this? Because I used to use the argument myself (and I found it very, very convincing at the time).

But consider the poor CDer's dilemma:

"Jeez, I'd really like to dress up as a woman today."
"Well, that's OK, mate, have at it."
"Great! Now, what are the girls wearing these days?"
"Jeans."
"But I'm already wearing jeans."
"Then you're already cross-dressed. So you can save yourself a lot of trouble."
"That's not fair!"

I think you might consider this point as well. I grew up in times when women wore dresses a lot more often than they do today. My sister had some beautiful stuff. So your budding CDer had a target to aim for, he knew more or less what he needed to do. His mother and sister(s) served as excellent role models. Can women these days honestly say that they're doing the same for their sons and brothers? I really think that women are letting us down big time.

But the real source of our resentment is this: a woman puts on a dress (and yes, it does still happen these days), she looks fabulous. A guy starts looking around for some dragon to slay in the hope of winning her admiration. I put on a dress and even the sheep in the fields are laughing at me. I ask you, Inna: is that fair? Is it?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Inna]

The point of Crossdresser wearing clothes as in "Just liking to wear women's attire" is null. If a man likes to wear women's clothing just for such purpose he then will not shave his body hair, no make up, no wig, no indication of wanting to be read as a woman but bluntly just wearing clothing or even heels because they appeal more fashionable or comfortable. I have seen such occurrences and it looks goofy yet it seems a powerful statement of sorts.

For the purpose of this thread though I have taken only CrossDressing as a form of expression to be seen as a woman and not pure expression of rebellious nature.

PS: it is so good to see all of you GGs engaging here, thank you sooo much, LUV!


Hi, Inna. Yes, the argument is absurd. But you have to understand: it's the last ditch effort on the part of a guy who wants to put on a dress, but can't quite convince himself that it's OK to do so. How do I know this? Because I used to use the argument myself (and I found it very, very convincing at the time).

But the real source of our resentment is this: a woman puts on a dress (and yes, it does still happen these days), she looks fabulous. A guy starts looking around for some dragon to slay in the hope of winning her admiration. I put on a dress and even the sheep in the fields are laughing at me. I ask you, Inna: is that fair? Is it?

Best wishes, Annabelle

I hear you girl, and yes, "THIS IS NOT FAIR" and what we had been dealt at the onset of our lives isn't fair, but we are here, making strides, putting make up on, dolling up so that we can have a glimpse into her image, into truth and if just for a moment feel whole. I have lost family, every bit of fortune I mustered, gone under knife, did HRT just to look into mirrors reflection and see her, see ME one body, one soul. We literally shall go to ends of earth to achieve the unachievable and through laughter, ridicule and resentment we shall power through to the other side, such is a power of self, against all adds!

[Foxglove]

I hear you girl, and yes, "THIS IS NOT FAIR" and what we had been dealt at the onset of our lives isn't fair, but we are here, making strides, putting make up on, dolling up so that we can have a glimpse into her image, into truth and if just for a moment feel whole. I have lost family, every bit of fortune I mustered, gone under knife, did HRT just to look into mirrors reflection and see her, see ME one body, one soul. We literally shall go to ends of earth to achieve the unachievable and through laughter, ridicule and resentment we shall power through to the other side, such is a power of self, against all adds!

Very well stated. I wish I had learned this lesson a long time ago: I must be me, or I will be nothing. I never have been me, and lots of times I feel like nothing. You have moved mountains. I'm starting with mustard seeds. But it is a start, isn't it?

Annabelle

[ReineD]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female
Agreed, even though moods might change between for example flirty, business, vampy, sexy, cute, girl-next-door, casual, but still always with a definite opposite-sex (female) flavor.


GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


Agreed, even though we also have different moods, sometimes we just want to be comfortable, sometimes fashionable, sometimes sexy, but still alway with a definite same-sex (female) flavor.


The point of Crossdresser wearing clothes as in "Just liking to wear women's attire" is null.
Also agreed. However, I've noticed over the years there are fewer members who say this as they discover or give themselves permission to be in touch with their dual gender needs. It used to be many CDers hated to identify as transgender because they believed this meant they were TS which was not an accurate description of how they felt. They felt this description negated their also valid male feelings. Now I think the idea that some people can be outside of the gender binary (neither strictly or fully male or female, but a combination of both just like the ability to be fully bilingual), is becoming less threatening for many members here. :)

I haven't seen the "it's not fair that women can crossdress by wearing pants" argument nearly as often as I used to.




If a gg decides they want to partake in activities more associated with men, ie football, until recent years going to the pub or chooses to wear jeans, pants etc, they won't be any fear of ridicule or assault. This is obviously how it should be, however should man want to do the polar opposite then it is taboo and against social norms.

That's not true. Have you ever seen how many men take cooking classes? Dance lessons? Drawing and painting classes? :) Years ago a group of parents were involved in making a classroom quilt to be sold at my children's school's fund-raising auction. A dad did the bulk of the work himself. I'll tell you that he was greatly admired by both the other dads and moms.

Times have changed. Thank goodness. :)

[KateSpade83]

A man's reputation in society can affect his job prospects, so wearing skirts or carrying a purse will give him a "gay" label and will hurt him in employment. There still is a lot of gay discrimination in employment, and I've had my share of it. That's why if I crossdress and go out I make sure I'm almost 100% passable as a woman, I don't want to look like "a man in a dress."

And women do get bitched out for wearing pants. I saw a woman in a store buying men's pants and another lady called her a "pants fag." Women also bitch and look down on butch dykes that dress up like men. I bet a lot of people don't like Chaz Bono, and I don't like her myself... Like why would a women not like women's clothes and being beautiful? What is the attraction to boring men's clothes?

And then women's pants are practical for women, - like in winter.

[Cheryl T]

Well, personally I find that a woman in the right slacks/blouse/heels outfit is very sexy, so I don't think it has anything to do with anything.

Most of the time when I'm out shopping or something like that I'm in jeans/slacks with a cute top and flats or sneakers. It's what I'm comfortable in for the occasion. It's not that I don't enjoy skirts and dresses....I MOST CERTAINLY DO....it's just that I wear what's comfy for where I'm going....just like any other woman.

There is no conferred right to wear anything because someone else wears something. There should just be the right to wear what you like...and I do.

[Miriam-J]

For a GG, and please I want some GGs here, clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.
For a CD wearing female clothing seems to be pointed to one direction and that is to appear, feel and exude image of a woman, therefore even though not sexual in nature it really is gendersexual in presentation. Therefore the name, Cross-Dresser.
OK, I'm among those guilty of making the unacceptable argument about GG crossdressing. I can't say I really buy it myself, but find it useful to throw in a little food for thought from an historical and ethographic perspective occasionally. But, I do disagree that clothing is simply an esthetic expression for GGs, or that they just want to be presentable. Many of the GGs I've observed will choose clothing and makeup that are intended to influence the opinions and/or reactions of those around them. If they want to provoke a sexual reaction, you'll see the heels, short skirts, and low-cut blouses (in summer anyway). If they want to be accepted as a serious businessperson, it's suits and serious shoes. If they'd like to receive little or no reaction it's sneakers and sweats. Makeup and hair are tailored to match each of these, chosen from a fairly vast array of cosmetics. Don't tell me this is purely or even primarily functional.

Of course, I do the same thing as a man but have a far less expressive set of tools. Suits to casual to sweats. No makeup options, but some (not me) can do a little with the hair.

When I crossdress, it's also designed to elicit a certain type of reaction from those around me. If I could be accepted as just a guy exercising his god-given right to wear a dress, I might do that. But I'm not comfortable with being seen as a man in a dress so, like many, I choose to use enough makeup so it's not obvious (didn't do too well on the avatar picture though!). This takes more than on most GGs just because the underlying appearance is so different. I have to wear a wig as very few women have just stubble on top of their heads. Now for the hypocritical part: I do prefer a skirt and heels - but I know quite a few ladies who do as well. Besides being a personal preference, it adds to the supposed illusion and helps to elicit the desired reaction.

I know that CDs are all over the spectrum on this one, and some wear only items that are designed to be sexually provocative. I really don't understand that subgroup, but I don't need to. I know that I'm not alone in my own preferences, and I'm sure that many of these can understand their own choices as just a desire to elicit appropriate reactions.

Miriam

[Jenniferathome]

You nailed it. Women wear WOMEN's pants by the way. Wearing pants is no more an act of crossdressing for a woman than a man who wears a kilt. That argument is nonsense

[Silentpartner GG SO]

precisely Jennifer.


I have seen posts repeatedly arguing that if GGs can wear pants then it should be absolutely fine for Crossdresser to wear a skirt!



Does anyone really believe the argument that women are cross-dressing by wearing pants so it should be ok for men to wear dresses? I doubt it

Let me ask you - if Armani (or some other reputable fashion house) introduced a range of beautifully tailored men's dresses, with the male form in mind - how many of you would buy them? I'd hazzard a guess at not many. Why? because they would be men's dresses and from my understanding, the reason you buy and wear women's clothes is because they are WOMEN'S clothes, to present as a woman, hence the false boobs, wig, make-up etc.


In the historical context however GGs graduated to wearing pants simply because pants meant power, and unjust control, and therefore woman's lib movement did what it needed to do, get women into pants!


I wear jeans - almost exclusively. I've got ratty jeans for doing messy jobs, comfy jeans for lounging around, smart jeans for going out a I've got jeans in lots of colours - but they are all women's jeans. I dont want to present as a male, Just as Momarie has posted, and as I said elsewhere, I dont strap on a dick, false beard etc. I woiuld be mortified if someone mistook me for a bloke - it would be a bit difficult because I have rather large boobs - but then again.......

I certainly dont wear jeans/pants for any type of power kick or statement - I wear them because they are comfy, hardwearing, practical and fit me.

I just dont like wearing skirts or dresses and only own one dress - a long black one for a fall-back if I need it. They are totally impractical for most of the things I like to do - and as for heels - well I dont know many women who do their housework in a pair of 4 inch heels! I do wear heels with my smart jeans though.


For a GG, and please I want some GGs here, clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.

not strictly true - well certainly not where I am concerned - in my single days I would dress for an evening out in a particular way, depending on whether or not I wanted to attract the opposite sex - and this wasnt always a conscious act - just as body language can say whether a person is available or not, even though it is mostly done subconsciously.

So I'm afraid as far as I'm concerned, the "she can so why cant I" argument just doesnt hold any water - if men want to wear dresses - well good luck to them, its got naff all to do with anyone else - but please dont try to justify it with some spurious argument about women cross-dressing because we all know thats really just a croc of sh*t!

[Aylineira]

There are already men's pantyhose and thongs for sale. The reason why I don't buy them is because of the crazy prices. Have you seen them? It's like twice to 5x's (or even more) money to purchase one of those.

Obviously if Armani does make dresses fit for the male form, it would do badly since crossdressers probably represent only a minor percentage of the male population and thus lose loads of money.

However I do get your point, if there were no differentiations between male or female clothing or let's just say even more that the social stigma wasn't present for crossdressers -- would we still crossdress?

I don't know the answer to this since I can only draw from how society is presently.

What I do know is that women have been making the same arguments as this... if men can do it, why can't we? And we are only making the same generalizations; that if women can do it, why can't we? Are there more motives behind this? Most likely so. Can it be defined? Not indefinitely. Therefore the statement isn't a "croc of s***" as you have so plainly put it. Let's remember that the men in Ireland can wear a skirt (kilt) no problem and there is no negative societal pressure associated with it...and still wear it.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I think you are kind of missing my point - yes women have used the "if men can do it, why cant we" but thats not what I called a croc .... its the idea that women are cross-dressing by wearing pants this is, IMO wrong.

I guess it depends on what you (or anyone) classes as cross-dressing.

If a guy puts on a dress but goes out and acts like a guy, making no effort to try and pass as a female , is he cross-dressing? or is he just a guy wearing a dress? In my opinion, he's not cross-dressing - there is no attempt to conceal his true gender, he's not trying to pass as a female.

Likewise, if a woman dons male attire but clearly acts as a female, I dont consider she is a cross-dresser. However, should she don male attire, pad pout the genitals to give the appearance of a penis, stick on a beard and get a crew-cut then in my opinion, she would be a cross-dresser.

The analogy of a female wearing women's jeans and acting as a female - and a man dressed in a wig,make-up and a dress, high heels etc. is, in my opinion, spurious or as I put it "a croc of sh*t"

As far as I can remember, the issues over which women have said "if a man can do it, why cant I " have been things like male dominated trades such as welders, builders etc. or male dominated business positions, or the dual standards regarding sexual promiscuity - i.e. its fine for a guy to have dozens of sexual partners and one night stands - he's being a lad but if a woman does it, she's being a ****!

I cant remember hearing too many women saying "guys dress up as women and pretend to be girls, why cant we dress up and pretend to be guys" but you may know different

[ReineD]

However I do get your point, if there were no differentiations between male or female clothing or let's just say even more that the social stigma wasn't present for crossdressers -- would we still crossdress?

Absolutely, but it wouldn't be called "crossdressing". If we lived in a society where men and women's clothes were identical, but women differentiated themselves from men by painting their faces green, CDers would paint their faces green and it would be called "crosspainting". lol

If there was no differentiation at all in terms of clothes, hair length and style, makeup, jewelry or any other adornment, then CDers would just don forms and hip pads, and it would be called "crossbodying".

Ok. Just having fun here. :)



What I do know is that women have been making the same arguments as this... if men can do it, why can't we? And we are only making the same generalizations; that if women can do it, why can't we?

Well, not quite. When we do it (whatever it is), we do not pass ourselves off as men.

Granted, there are a few members in this forum who do not hide their maleness when they dress. They present just as they do normally, except they wear skirts and maybe heels. No wigs, no makeup, no forms, no body shaving. Such a member might be entitled to ask the question, "if women wear pants, why can't I wear a skirt". But, I think it's safe to say that very few members on this board want to be seen as a regular guy who is wearing a dress, in the same way that a GG wants to be seen as a regular girl who is wearing jeans.

[Babette]

Inna, I couldn't agree with you more! Regardless of gender, I notice the clothing that people are displaying seem to reflect 1) practicality, 2) functionality, and 3) style to fit the occasion. Yes, that includes me too. If the temperature is cold, I will be wearing long, comfortable pants and not a skirt. If it is hot, then I will be wearing shorts and a T-shirt. If I am working outdoors and the conditions are rough, I will surely be wearing rugged clothing that can take the abuse. If the occasion is more formal, then I will be dressed appropriate for the setting. This is 2012 and GG's have the right to be no different!

Babette

[Julia_in_Pa]

I transitioned five years ago and rarely outside of work do you see me in anything but jeans until warm weather when I wear longer shorts.


Julia

[Foxglove]

If we lived in a society where men and women's clothes were identical. . .



Reine, you're trying to scare us, but it won't work. Consider: women will always have breasts, and men will not. Therefore, women will always be wearing at least one item that men usually don't--some type of bra.

Therefore, we CDers will always have that to work with, if nothing else. We are eternal, Reine. You can't get rid of us so easily.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[sissystephanie]

I like to think of myself as an unusual crossdresser!! Yes I am a male and yes again I do dress like a woman. But I certainly don't look like a woman, nor do I want to. I do not wear false boobs because I have natural 40 B's! I am almost bald and wear no wig and no makeup at all. So I am a male in womens clothing! Usually a skirt and top, and sometimes a dress. Why do I do it? Simply because I like the fit, feel, and look of feminine clothing!! I have no desire to actually be a woman, and never have had that feeling in the almost 70 years that I have been crossdressing!!! Most of the CD's on here have no idea what it was like to CD in the 1940's through the 1960's. Believe me, it was a lot tougher in those days!!

The most amazing thing is that in all those years that I have been crossdressing, there has been very few negative remarks made about my clothing. Especially since the 1980's! Most people just don't care!! I don't care what women wear, and most of them don't care what I wear!!

[Stephenie S]

My point exactly, Sissy.

Wear what you want, when you want. Women do. You can too. All you have to do is DO it. The guilt and shame are all in your head. Most people just don't give a darn.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

If we lived in a society where men and women's clothes were identical, but women differentiated themselves from men by painting their faces green, CDers would paint their faces green and it would be called "crosspainting". lol

:rofl:

Reine - do you think it'll ever catch on? :heehee:

[Jonianne]

.....Wear what you want, when you want. Women do. You can too. All you have to do is DO it. The guilt and shame are all in your head. Most people just don't give a darn.

Yes, you can do that. Yesterday, I had a first, I went as myself, Joni, to a tax service to get my taxes done. I never said a word about why I was dressed and she never asked. She just did her job and was very professional and saved me some money (I can buy some nicer dresses, now!). I interacted all day long with others and it didn't matter to me or apparently them either, how or why I was dressed. Just be OK being yourself and others will most likely follow suit.

The difference is when you are OK with others knowing who you are. Not everyone is able to be like that (because of themselves or their loveones), but that is the threshhold that has to be crossed when you or I want to go out dressed as ourselves and not live in fear while going out.

Sorry for being a little off topic, but I think it ties in, because the GG's are just fine wearing what they want and we can be too.

[Aylineira]

To Silentpartner: Ok I get it now. Men who are crossdressing are actually trying to be a woman and not just a man in a dress. Whereas women aren't trying to be a man.

I totally agree with that point.

But then again... in history there has been many times where women would crossdress as men trying to pass so that they could do certain things that men couldn't.

Although their reasons were for much different reasons than male crossdressers now, we CD'rs aren't too far off from them.

Personally for me I just want to pass so I can move about in this society more freely and dress how I want to dress without getting ridiculed. I am one of those crossdressers that don't want to be a woman but a man in woman's clothing.

To Reine: Crosspaintbody what?? LOL that made me smile and chuckle a little :)

[Emma Leigh]

This argument has been aired numerous times, and the GG,s always throw the same comment forward, to the women in pants are just the same as a man in a skirt debate, "why do you wear a bra"

[Inna]

This argument has been aired numerous times, and the GG,s always throw the same comment forward, to the women in pants are just the same as a man in a skirt debate, "why do you wear a bra"

For support! what else.........and then some really pretty bras, so their SOs could see their beautiful femininity in a beautiful frame. Certainly not to look a MALE :)

[Silentpartner GG SO]

only rude and ignorant people would ridicule you for your clothing - who cares about their opinions - the opinions of such imbeciles and morons dont count for jack sh*t. I'd much rather see a guy in a nice dress than some of the nutters in "people of Walmart" I just cant help but laugh at some of them - umm, maybe that makes me an imbecile or a moron:brolleyes:

just off to paint my face green now :battingeyelashes:

[drushin703]

Originally posted by Marym:

When I crossdress, it's designed to elicit a certain type of reaction from those around me. If I could be accepted as just a guy exercising his god
given right to wear a dress, I might do that. But Ime not comfortable with being seen as a man in a dress so, like many, I choose to use makeup so
its not obvious.
I know that cd's are all over the spectrum on this one and some wear only items that are designed to be sexually provacative. I really dont understand
that subgroup, but I dont need to. I know that ime not alone in my preferences, and ime sure that many of these can understand their own choices as
just a desire to elicit appropriate reactions."



Wow Marym! It is true that my eyesight is shot but my memory and my aptitude to recall it, with the most minimal of energies, is as good as ever.
Take my hand here and let me take you back, just a few weeks , to the thread "crossdressing and bisexuality". You remember that thread dont you?
It lasted several months with 15 pages of responses, from every possible angle and perspective on the subject one could imagine. Although, thru my
laconic lines and uneven meter< I said exactly what you have said here. To that Raine wondered of dana (my alter ego)" Why would a cder who is not
into men, dress to attract them as if he was?" And the answer is, "to elicit appropriate reations">. SO CAUTION IS NECESSARY HERE.


Original posted by Inna:
"for a GG, and please I want some gg's here, clothing is esthetic but that is it.The act of clothing themselves is rather void of any message
other then surely everyone wants to be presentable."...............Inna.?.........please! dana

[ReineD]

Therefore, women will always be wearing at least one item that men usually don't--some type of bra.

We are eternal, Reine. You can't get rid of us so easily.

Best wishes, Annabelle

I'm not trying to get rid of you. I know, and I agree! :D Have a look at the sentence following my words that you quoted, where I describe the possibility of "crossbodying" (it stands to reason that forms would require a bra to put them in). Absolutely, CDers would find a way to adopt that which GGs have and GMs have not.

I said I was having fun with this, simply because I came up with implausible scenarios. I don't believe for a moment that we will ever live in a society where men and women will cease to differentiate themselves. We're talking about the birds and the bees here, and no one wants to mess with that! :D

Silent Partner, I'll come find you and we can both paint our faces green. :)


Although, thru my laconic lines and uneven meter< I said exactly what you have said here. To that Reine wondered of dana (my alter ego) "Why would a cder who is not into men, dress to attract them as if he was?" And the answer is, "to elicit appropriate reactions">. SO CAUTION IS NECESSARY HERE.

Yes, I remember that. And once again is a confirmation that (assuming there are others who feel as you do) it is the feeling of femininity that is sought more than any real attraction to a man.

[Kate Simmons]

Well yeah Inna but I think it mostly started due to gals working on the farm. In recent American history women still just fed the chickens and ducks and did the mundane chores on the farm.Then they wore dresses. When they started working in the fields, etc. they began wearing denim jeans and overalls, no "competition" with men was involved as it was about practicality. It's mostly about style and the "dictates" of society really.When fashion designers caught on to this they desiged denim to hug the curves of women to make a fashion statement.

Longer ago in really ancient times both men and women wore robes or basically dresses but the styles were slightly different for men and women. In ancient Egypt both men and women wore robes, makeup and jewelery but I digress.....

What clothes do for people is really mostly a matter of mindset and comfort level in my opinion.:)

[Billie Jean]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female



GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.I love how you put it. There are some on here that find it unacceptable for those of us who just wear dresses and not present as a woman. This was evident in a thread I started about going out dressed and having a beard. I only wear a bra to support my b-cup breast. They seem to think that by my doing so will hurt it becoming normal for guys to wear dresses. Billie Jean

[Sophie_C]

Ok, so I think there's either some inexperience in fashion or too much male thinking here (no insult intended).

Look, it's not the "what." It's the "how." If clothing is cut and designed to accentuate masculine features, it comes off as masculine. If it is cut and designed to accent feminine features, it comes off as feminine.

Case in point: Kyle McLaughlin's Scottish Wedding in SATC.

Due to the cut of the Kilt, it completely comes off as accentuating male features, even to the point of being a bit military and regal. No one in their right mind could possible see it as feminine.

Now, compare it to this to what Jwoww is wearing, completely accentuating her feminine curves. No one in their right mind could ignore it being feminine.

Both are plaid skirts, right? So, by the main argument, they should be both feminine, right? Wrong.

As you can see now, they are completely different.

This is why pants are not only masculine and is how the whole thing works.

Got it?

[Inna]

since we are on picture format then I shall give some input as well, here it goes I think these boys are fab, not only they celebrating fem but are distinctly male while doing it!!!!

[Sophie_C]

Inna, that's like PHD level stuff you're putting out here. I know exactly what you're getting at, but I really think it's going to confuse those people here just learning the Algebra when it comes to gender identity's relationship to fashion! :eek:

But, to address what you're showing, for those with an advanced awareness, the mix going on these days even challenges the sheer existence of this forum. It seems that Andrej Pejic has made it possible for those in really, really open-minded circles, to actually come out of the closet and not be boxed into traditional cross-dressing and do like a 90/10 feminine/masculine thing (or any other mix) and just go with it. Kyle Farmery, (http://insidenewyork.com/2012/01/31/born-this-way-tips-from-fashion-blogger-kyle-farmery/) for one, blows my mind on what's possible in 2012.

I'm actually tempted to rock a look like that, but entirely in my own vein, and if my life ever goes to hell, I'm sure I will.

[Swottie]

I wonder if the fashion world and attitudes in general changes and it becomes acceptable, common even, for men to wear skirts and dresses, I wonder how many of us will be happy to settle wearing male skirts/dresses and not have to try to pass as female if that day ever comes. I think I'd be happy with that.

[Pythos]

Wow....this whole thread, this entire thread all I can see is members of this community, leveling a gun at their feet and pulling the trigger.

You all need to look at history, and how men DID dress. How skirts were for MEN only, as were tights, women wore long long dresses. Also high heels were for men only. Pants on women was unacceptable. There are laws in France that were written about this.

That being said. Women wear pants, then there should be NO double standard saying that men cannot wear skirts. Women go out with no makeup on, guys should be able to wear makeup. (yes yes, I know, there is no law preventing this, but your job, and reputation is still based on how you dress, even on your spare time.) I have said this before and I guess I have to say it again. HOw would a man that is obviously male wearing a skirt and hose, be treated by the average joe? Another thing, leg hair removal...started by ROMAN soldiers to prevent nits from being able to grab onto leg hairs. High heels? Designed for a more positive engagement in the stirrups of war horses. The only inherently sexually based clothing are Bra and Jock strap, and even for these there are exceptions.

Double standards are wrong, immoral, and do nothing for no one.

Why are members of this board supporting them?

[ReineD]

Pythos, men can and do wear skirts. Look at the left picture in post #40. He's even wearing a matching scarf ... and throughout the rest of the world they wear sarongs, pareos, lava-lavas, robes, kimonos, togas, tunics, albs, dhotis, and dozens more.

Also, look at these contemporary styles for western men:
http://trendland.net/men-in-skirts-from-the-runway-to-the-street/#

As Sophie so aptly put it, it's not "what" is worn, it's "how" it is worn. The issue is a male wanting to come off as a woman. Women who wear jeans don't come off as presenting male.

[Pythos]

Major supporter that skirts should be open for both sexes, yes.

thing is, that link you gave. Please read the third down comment from Cali. His argument is essentially mine excepting I think make up and hair length should also be included.

[WifeofWrenchette]

This argument has been aired numerous times, and the GG,s always throw the same comment forward, to the women in pants are just the same as a man in a skirt debate, "why do you wear a bra"I never wear a bra. Haven't in the past 20 years. Hate them. Won't wear them. Don't care what people think. I also hate skirts. Shorts and tee shirts are my main wardrobe. Hate underwear too. Rarely, if ever, wear it either. :)

[Foxglove]

I never wear a bra. Haven't in the past 20 years. Hate them. Won't wear them. Don't care what people think. I also hate skirts. Shorts and tee shirts are my main wardrobe. Hate underwear too. Rarely, if ever, wear it either. :)

Excuse me very much, but it sounds to me like, rather than crossdressed, you're more undressed. We may have to hold a CD convention to decide if this qualifies as CDing. We have very strict guidelines, you know.

Annabelle

[ReineD]

Excuse me very much, but it sounds to me like, rather than crossdressed, you're more undressed. We may have to hold a CD convention to decide if this qualifies as CDing. We have very strict guidelines, you know.

Psssst, Annabelle ...... (Wrenchette2 is a GG) :)

[Bree-asaurus]

since we are on picture format then I shall give some input as well, here it goes I think these boys are fab, not only they celebrating fem but are distinctly male while doing it!!!!

Woah.... not my thing at all...

I'm into dudes... but not dudes that wear heels :P

[Foxglove]

Psssst, Annabelle ...... (Wrenchette2 is a GG) :)

Oh. Sorry. I wasn't paying attention, was I? Please disregard my last post.:o

By way of excuse, I can point out that it's 5:30 AM here and I've been up for the last hour and a half. Couldn't sleep.

Annabelle

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Woah.... not my thing at all...

I'm into dudes... but not dudes that wear heels :P

Thank God! I thought it was just me - I think they look all wrong

[Stephanie47]

At one time men and women both wore garments that were not pants. I believe men, as the defenders of the village and their possessions (including their women) developed pants because they started domesticating horses and riding them. It is a lot easier riding in pants than a dress side saddled. As a kid, when girls still had to wear dresses, boys and girls bikes still reflected that difference. All the girls I know who pushed the envelope and wore pants did it because of functionality. It took along time for girls and then women to break down the existing culture and wear pants in a 'dressy' situation.

As to power- A woman wearing tasteful business attire- skirt, blouse, heels or dress and heels- holds more power than a guy in a suit jacket. Confident attractive dressed women rule over guys and female counterparts. Personal opinion.

[KimberlyS]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female
.....
For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

Momarie, well that depends on the CDer. Many if not most MTF CDer do seem to want to appear Female. For some of us we do not want to be female. Even when I am dressed in full femme I just feel like a guy. For myself I would prefer to leave the makeup and wig at home and just go out in a mix of masculine and feminine clothes. And I have done this mix when I have been far from home those I know. It is a freeing feeling just wearing the clothes of choice and not have to worry about what people think. Yea I get some looks but I have not had any problems doing it. I think if there was not the stigma about having to adhere to the male or female standard, even within the TG community, maybe more CDers would dress somewhere in the middle or a mix of fashions.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

You, silk, are a very bad girl :rofl:

[Beth Wilde]

Just a thought from the section of my head labelled "Really weird". I love wearing female clothes as they are wonderfully comfortable and much more varied, but due to my job, place of residence etc, walking out as a guy in female clothing would cause real issues, so I disguise myself as a female in order to wear the clothes I find so pleasant........
Discuss?

P.S no responsibility is accepted for weird posts from this part of my brain!!

[Inna]

I am so glad that most recent posts are prejudice in a way!!!!

And don't get me wrong, not that it bothers me nor should it, BUT...........prejudice nevertheless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, as to what I see, I have posted some pics of feminine looking guys, they look perfectly male except dressed in and fashioned hyper fem.

So whats wrong with that?

NOTHING except, some comments point to dislike, which is absolutely politically correct, and to tell you the truth I am not into that sort of thing either,

BUT, those boys looking wrong is nothing other then any average CDer of Trans in transition looks just as awkward as those pics.



Actually, CDers and transitioning TSs look way more awkward then those stylized fashion fem male models!


SO........................

I just see how easy it is to be critical in respect to the look of someone else when exposed to new and funky offbeat borderline stuff!


Just do not be surprised when someone looks and says: dude.....that's weird!

[darla_g]

i guess as a CD i tend to favor clothes that i consider more feminine like skirts or dresses. Sure GGs where pants, slacks or jeans on a regular basis, but if I'm going to dress i am going to look for the most feminine looking clothing i can find. I mean if you're starting from such a disadvantage that's what you have to do.

[busker]

For a GG, and please I want some GGs here, clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.

]

Surely you jest here. clothing is --IMO--an erotic display. clothing has been so eroticized that I believe that is one of the reasons CDs have problems generally with non-acceptance from women ( a major area of cmpetition for men/women). with men, it is the opposite--it is an attractant (and therefore a problem), I believe.
no fire breathing dragons, please, my jammies aren't flame retardant.

[Shananigans]

I'm a GG and I wear jeans...always "skinny" jeans. My mom said they called them cigarette jeans or something when she was young.

Why do I wear jeans? It has little to do with power, history, or over taking men. At one point in my life, I noticed that the trend was for girls to wear skinny jeans and boots or ballet flats. So, yeah, uh...I bought some.

That was pretty much the exact thought process. Didn't think much about what it meant for womankind...just wanted to buy some f*cking jeans because they are deemed the cool thing to wear.

I think a big difference in my dressing versus a crossdresser is that I'm not very attached to my "image" in jeans. If they were deemed unfashionable, I would toss them out. I generally like to wear what other fashionable GGs wear with my own personal twists. I don't think it's very fashionable for genetic males to wear women's clothes...but, at the same time, I don't really care one way or the other. Wear what you want to wear...let other people wear what they want to wear.

[daarleane]

Men wear kilts in Ireland and Scotland, how does that fit in with your theory? Personally, I wear womens jeans because they fit better and look better.

[ReineD]

I think if there was not the stigma about having to adhere to the male or female standard, even within the TG community, maybe more CDers would dress somewhere in the middle or a mix of fashions.

I totally agree with you! Most cisgenders (and transsexuals?) simply cannot wrap their minds around anyone who doesn't fit the male/female gender binary. I've read many posts in this forum over the years by CDers who say they do put on a complete femme look so they can get away with just wearing the clothes. And the TG community tries to convince them they are female (or in denial about being female) because of this.

Case in point:

I love wearing female clothes as they are wonderfully comfortable and much more varied, but due to my job, place of residence etc, walking out as a guy in female clothing would cause real issues, so I disguise myself as a female in order to wear the clothes I find so pleasant........


------------------------------------------------------------



I have posted some pics of feminine looking guys, they look perfectly male except dressed in and fashioned hyper fem. ...

BUT, those boys looking wrong is nothing other then any average CDer of Trans in transition looks just as awkward as those pics.

Actually, CDers and transitioning TSs look way more awkward then those stylized fashion fem male models!

Just do not be surprised when someone looks and says: dude.....that's weird!

I disagree with you. You can't compare gay looking men who wear high heels to CDers. :p CDers (after they've gone through the learning curve) who go out in the mainstream do not present the same conflicting image as the men whose pics you posted.

You're actually proving my point, it is not a CDer or a TS who blends in that makes people anxious, so much as a mix of gender they see in a person, such as in the pics you posted. Now if a CDer or a TS looks overly male and has not learned the skills required to blend as a female, I do see your point. People won't know what to make of them. But surely, by the time a CDer has gained enough confidence to go out, s/he has learned how to blend in? My SO has. :)

[Inna]

I guess we both have trouble sleeping Reine :) Well, you are right, I have stipulated "Actually, CDers and transitioning TSs look way more awkward then those stylized fashion fem male models" but should have written Transitioning or male looking CDers and early transitioning TS.
I suppose you are right that those super fem, heeled boys do pose a more IN YOUR FACE radical view, but there, within these images the person does not try to conceal their gender/sexual identity, where in the CDer such concealment if not mastered, reveals a deceit as seen in the observers eye, therefore the surprised and often derogatory critical view!

Nite Nite, pleasant dreams hon :)

[ReineD]

It would be oh so nice if our clothing weren't gendered. It would solve a lot of problems. :p

[Babeba]

Someone made a comment about high heels being originally male, military, and to help with horse riding... I personally would not want to ride a horse in 95% of the heels I see these days!

The history of heels is a very long and old one. Personally I think they have as much with avoiding muddy streets as they have with stirrups; also many styles of stirrup were designed for flat shoes in the past. Also also, anytime I have taken riding lessons, you are doing it wrong if your heel is anywhere near the stirrup.

The modern, feminine high heel has its revolutionary origins in the 1950s, when the steel pin heel was invented... Allowing a much smaller surface area to support a much taller shoe.

One more point: everyone, go take a look at your shoes, inside and out. I can guarantee you that any quality shoe you own will have a slightly higher heel than toe, as it helps the gait and prevents some back pain.

[Shananigans]

Babeba, I've actually been on a horse while wearing heels once. Basically, I had to stomp around in gravel and muddy farmland in my good stilettos....then, on my dismount all of my heels went straight into mud. Mud all the way up the heel. I had to throw the things away because I couldn't get the smell out. I'm not sure the whole "modern heel and horsing" argument...but, I'm just saying if you are wearing heels to look "sexy," don't even bother. Save your shoes.

For the record, I didn't know I was riding horses that afternoon, or would be stomping around on a farm. I was doing a favor for a friend's farm since I worked in parasitology and just went straight from lunch to the farm. I had mentioned that my grandparents were big into showing their horses growing up, so somehow I ended up on a horse in stillettos. Never again, y'all....never again. Something tells me modern shoes never had these activities in mind. And, my shoes are cute...I don't want them to smell like farm animals. I love horses...but, I am just saying...I don't wanna smell like on in my "sexy time."

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Riding a horse in high heels in downright dangerous! Just imagine getting thrown and getting your heel caught in the stirrup - horse bolts, dragging you god knows where - disaster !

[susan54]

OK just come across this thread after being away for a bit.

Totally agree that women in trousers not cross dressing. BUT women who would go bananas if their male partner insisted that they only wear skirts or trousers seem to think it is OK to impose restrictions on what their guy can wear. THAT is the double standard.

It is also a bit much to suggest that women just wear clothes. Some women would starve for a month or miss their mortgage payment for a particular dress or a pair of shoes. Why can't men feel the same way about a dress or a pair of Laboutins? If these womanly extremes of clothing longing are not sexual, why can't a man feel the same way about these things? SECOND double standard.

The point about the bra is valid. I spend most of my time at home completely dressed in womenswear including a bra and forms - all that is missing is the make up and the wig. I hate both, but I wear both when I go out in a skirt/dress. I enjoy ACTING as a woman. I don't ever think this is really me but it is good fun. It is a costume and an act.

I don't just want to act as a woman. It HAS to be a dress or skirt. As a Scot,I can wear a kilt, and sometimes do. No resemblance. I am told that I look better in a kilt than trousers and (by women) that I look better in a dress and skirt than in menswear. I add a bosom to make my outfit look better and it seems to work. I go for elegance, not femininity - frills and chiffon not me. I have a figure (with breasts) that really looks good in nice dresses and skirts/tops, and making the legs hairless and wearing heels makes my legs look even better. I don't wear women's trousers except when shopping as a man(and I also do the man in skirt thing in public). I much prefer a skirt over a kilt. Not too keen on suspenders or corsets
.

Admittedly I find a bra and forms comfortable. Probably not logical but I don't care. And I only wear women's underwear and nightwear.

We cross dressers cover a wide spectrum. Women should chill about it. I only act as a woman to ACT. Do unto us as you would have us do to you. Equality OK.