Guess I got inducted into the club.

[sandra-leigh]

I got off a (city) bus today on the way home, and walked the short distance to the intersection and stood quietly waiting for the light to change.

The weather lately tends to be cool (e.g., +6C = 40F) in the morning and hot (e.g., +21C = 74F) in the afternoon, so I had my lighter winter womens' jacket, all butterflies and cherry blossoms. I was carrying a large colorful cloth sack-purse, as per usual. My hair is below my shoulder again finally.

As in uffish thought I stood, a guy, 25-ish perhaps, walked up from behind me, right into my personal space on my left side. The guy exclaimed, not softly, "Whoa! I thought you were a man!", took another step forward in my left to see me better, and then proceeded with, "Are you a Man" (yep, definitely inflections in the voicing.)

I turned my head over to him, arched my eye a bit in disdain, and replied, "It's none of your business."

The guy found my reply hilarious and stumbled off, uncoordinated by his paroxysms. And the light changed and I crossed the road without bothering to look back at him.

Now, when he asked, various responses flashed through my mind, such as the traditional quick slap on the face for impertinence, or such as warning him that asking some of my friends that would get him decked, or such as replying in a false pitch "Well, honey, that's not the kind of thing you ask a girl!". But I quickly realized that the only reason he was worth any response was to get him out of my personal space, and that a "None of your business" would suffice for that.

Am I upset? Nah, just shaking my head at the rudeness of some people.

So... I guess I have now been initiated into the club: my first knob-head has wandered up and loudly demanded to know what my gender was. I'm sure there will be plenty of others. :doh:

[Misti]

I got off a (city) bus today on the way home, and walked the short distance to the intersection and stood quietly waiting for the light to change.... So... I guess I have now been initiated into the club: my first knob-head has wandered up and loudly demanded to know what my gender was. I'm sure there will be plenty of others. :doh:

Sandra-Leigh, my first response has to be, "Yep!" But, on second thought, I realize that he, "Mr.," loosely speaking, "Knucklehead," had to do a double take/look, before even making his rude remark,didn't he? :heehee:

I think you handled it very lady-like, indeed. End result, he left, didn't he? :brolleyes:

[Leslie Langford]

Odds are this clod also sported multiple tats and body piercings, had spiked hair or a Mohawk, was texting on his smart-phone while verbally accosting you, had ear-buds in his ear attached to his mp3 player that was playing rap music, and wore standard-issue hip-hop clothing and a hoodie.

I don't suppose anyone called him on any of those lifestyles choices. Nah, why would they? Everybody's (what used to be) counter-culture fashions have all gone mainstream now and have become part of the landscape, but strangely enough, we're still considered the currrent oddities by these former oddities.

Ah, yes!- the vagaries of fashion and the ever-popular double standard, served along with a hearty helping of hypocrisy.

[Melody Moore]

Unfortunately you will occasionally run into the odd Neanderthals Sandra, but fortunately they are
a bit of a dying breed nowadays. In my experience if one raises their ugly head around a crowd they
get jumped on real quick especially if you are out with a bunch of butch lesbian friends. And the best
part is you didn't even say a word. Those stupid enough to be so rude & transphobic all ended up
choking back on a huge chunk of humble pie after not getting the reaction they would have hoped.
Hold your head high and just keep smiling at them and that defeats them every single time. :hugs:

[Chickhe]

...wow, I would be at a loss for words too. Maybe with a lot of practice making your mouth drop open in shock and saying oh my gawd, you think I'm a guy??!! would do it... otherwise, I might just say 'why are you asking?" which is pretty close to none of your business. And I think the right attitude though is to just laugh about how confused you made that guy.

[Badtranny]

Just the other day I was shopping with a friend in Burlingame (SouthBay) and as we were walking along the street, I caught the eye of a big dude who was a passenger in a slow moving SUV. We made eye contact for a second and when I turned my head away he laughed loudly and practically yelled to his buddy, "did you see that?"

It happens. Potentially every single day. Maybe I should wear makeup?

[sandra-leigh]

The perp was not visibly "counter-culture" (as we used to say.) What he looked like mostly was an over-grown over-privileged middle-class teenager. I got the sense that he thought he was bigger (heavier) than me and thought he could intimidate me with his mass.


The guy was being an ahole and called Sandra out

Yup, from the stress on "Man" in his question about whether I was a man, it certainly came across as a deliberate challenge to my "manhood". Fortunately for me, I gave up that game a couple of decades ago: the only way to win it is to refuse to play it at all.

I do have a response waiting for a future occasion: "Was that a proposition? Because if you aren't offering to go to bed with me, then my gender doesn't matter, does it?"

@Melissa: I've had incidents like what you report before. This was, though, the first time someone outright asked me my gender. I am more accustomed to laughter.

(Even laughter I get used to in time, as most of it is from one particular ethnic group that tends to be irreverent to everyone; and after they laugh they tend to invite me for a beer. I studied their language briefly some years ago; the book said that culturally their sentences tend to be constructed to emphasize that everything is funny.)

[ReineD]

I do have a response waiting for a future occasion: "Was that a proposition? Because if you aren't offering to go to bed with me, then my gender doesn't matter, does it?"

Some people are crazy and saying something like this might cause them to snap and cause you bodily harm. I love the way you did handle it.

[IamSara]

Some people are crazy and saying something like this might cause them to snap and cause you bodily harm. I love the way you did handle it.

I agree with Reine on this one. Not to into getting the crap beat out of me any longer.

[kimdl93]

I suppose it has to happen sooner or later. I think you dealt with him approriately.

[KarenCDFL]

As many people have said, "You can't fix stupid"

[Julia_in_Pa]

I'm not trying to come off beating my chest or something but after asking a question like that and invading my personal space I would be in jail for beating him into oblivion.


Julia

[Melody Moore]

"Was that a proposition? Because if you aren't offering to go to bed with me, then my gender doesn't matter, does it?"
Sandra, I have to agree with Reine here because this statement could be the catalyst that sets off a
really bad reaction because this statement is turning it around it into a proposition. And in some places
this could be seen as legal justification for an assault & they get away with it under a loophole in the law.

In Australia in the state of Queensland the LGBTIQ community is fighting to change a law where a homosexual
advance from a same sex person is legal justification for a person to defend themselves using physical violence
under what is now called the "Gay Panic Defence" - See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

I would be more likely to say something like "What gender I am really isn't important because
I have no intentions of ever going to bed with you". I have made myself clear that I will not
respond anymore to the question and I am not any sort of a threat to them. If they continue
to hurl abusive comments after that then, just turn your back on them and walk away. If they
come after you and attack you, if there are people around & someone starts acting transphobic
they usually all sit up and take good notice. So witnesses to an assault would usually see that
you did nothing to provoke it. But if there is anyone around they usually won't violent not unless
they are drunk and throw all caution to the wind. I find drunks to be quite amusing when they try
to get violent because they are so uncoordinated they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
Most of the time you only need to side step, deflect or block an attack & stay out of a drunk's way.

[sandra-leigh]

Not exactly in the same line, but still related:

Yesterday at a book-store, I was dressed very much the same way as in the post above -- cloth purse, long hair, earrings, jeans, plain-ish top, and wearing the same blossom-and-butterfly jacket. I needed to use the washroom, so I opened the door to the men's, saw that there was someone just walking out the same door, so I stepped back and held the door to let fellow by. I got the impression he was a late-30's father of young children -- not a thug, not a poser, maybe a bit worn down.

Anyhow, he glanced over at me and said, "This is the men's washroom!". It was not an "opps, you accidentally got the wrong door, heh heh" tone, it was a "You can't go in there!" tone as if I was deliberately going in to the wrong place.

I simply calmly replied, "Yes."

He looked me over for a few seconds, and said, "Oh", and turned to leave, and then a second or two later said, obviously to himself as he started to walk off, "Whoa!"

No apology, no "opps, sorry, I judged before I had a clear look." And the "Whoa!" sounded sort of like a "Did I really see what I thought I saw??" combined with "Some people... what next?!"

An apology for the semi-accusatory tone would have been nice, even if it had just been, "I'm sorry, my kid was teething all night and I shouldn't have spoken to you that way."

But whatever. It was still amusing to be told I was going into the wrong washroom :D

[Starling]

Might I ask why you chose the mensroom?

:) Lallie

[Badtranny]

Might I ask why you chose the mensroom?

Because she was androgynous and didn't want to offend anyone.

Bravo Sandra. I personally think the restroom war is better fought on our home turf. I've gotten some crazy looks in men's rooms, some were startled, some confused, some angry, but I would prefer that over making a woman feel uncomfortable because there is a guy in the ladies room. There is a time and a place, and when I'm clubbing or presenting very obviously female with makeup and whatnot, then I use the ladies room and I've never had an issue. However, most of the time I am presenting like most women do; Jeans, tshirt, flats, ponytail and no makeup. I look like a guy because that's the way my face and body is shaped. A very feminine guy but still a guy and I think the respectful thing to do is use the men's room rather than potentially cause a commotion over a 2 minute activity.

I realize that my "accommodation style" of transition is an affront to some other T-girls but I am a badtranny after all, and I believe it is incumbent on us to be reasonable and compassionate FIRST, especially if we expect the world to give us the same.

[Amber99]

Because she was androgynous and didn't want to offend anyone.

Bravo Sandra. I personally think the restroom war is better fought on our home turf. I've gotten some crazy looks in men's rooms, some were startled, some confused, some angry, but I would prefer that over making a woman feel uncomfortable because there is a guy in the ladies room. There is a time and a place, and when I'm clubbing or presenting very obviously female with makeup and whatnot, then I use the ladies room and I've never had an issue. However, most of the time I am presenting like most women do; Jeans, tshirt, flats, ponytail and no makeup. I look like a guy because that's the way my face and body is shaped. A very feminine guy but still a guy and I think the respectful thing to do is use the men's room rather than potentially cause a commotion over a 2 minute activity.

I realize that my "accommodation style" of transition is an affront to some other T-girls but I am a badtranny after all, and I believe it is incumbent on us to be reasonable and compassionate FIRST, especially if we expect the world to give us the same.

This is true but if you have any hope of passing then you would be throwing it away by going in the mens room. It's essentially outing yourself.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Because she was androgynous and didn't want to offend anyone.

Bravo Sandra. I personally think the restroom war is better fought on our home turf. I've gotten some crazy looks in men's rooms, some were startled, some confused, some angry, but I would prefer that over making a woman feel uncomfortable because there is a guy in the ladies room. There is a time and a place, and when I'm clubbing or presenting very obviously female with makeup and whatnot, then I use the ladies room and I've never had an issue. However, most of the time I am presenting like most women do; Jeans, tshirt, flats, ponytail and no makeup. I look like a guy because that's the way my face and body is shaped. A very feminine guy but still a guy and I think the respectful thing to do is use the men's room rather than potentially cause a commotion over a 2 minute activity.

I realize that my "accommodation style" of transition is an affront to some other T-girls but I am a badtranny after all, and I believe it is incumbent on us to be reasonable and compassionate FIRST, especially if we expect the world to give us the same.

Nope, not an affront to me...I agree with you..

I mean who cares about the women that use the facilities...

If you are not transitioned, one of the irritations is outing yourself sometimes...similar to when you give out id... i had this issue for months when i started transition,
and like melissa..i figured that i'd kill'em with kindness

[sandra-leigh]

Because she was androgynous and didn't want to offend anyone.


I still never expect to "pass" when I'm in my everyday clothes. That's not a matter of weak self-confidence, that's a matter of long long experience where no matter how much I was dressed up, people who barely knew me would recognize me in 2 seconds flat, in bad light, from a distance.

When I'm Dressed and wearing a wig, I use the women's, but I haven't worn a wig in 2 years and I wasn't Dressed. Not even lipstick or foundation.

Basically, I don't need the hassle of being called out in a multi-user washroom when I'm not even trying to pass. The law here is murky and if there was trouble I could probably win if I took it up to the Court of Appeals (with all the publicity and money woes that entails). But in the meantime what I keep firmly in mind is that there are almost no truly public washrooms left in the city, that nearly all of them are actually "private" washrooms for legal purposes (e.g., malls), and mall owners in particular have the right to ban people from their properties for being part of a disturbance (even the person was perfectly in the right in a legal sense.) Once banned, going on the property again without written permission becomes a matter of "criminal trespass". I just don't need that kind of trouble.

When I'm fully dressed and feeling good about my appearance, Sure, but not when I'm just a long-haired fashion-misfit.

[Ari333]

Sandra-Leigh, my first response has to be, "Yep!" But, on second thought, I realize that he, "Mr.," loosely speaking, "Knucklehead," had to do a double take/look, before even making his rude remark,didn't he? :heehee:

I think you handled it very lady-like, indeed. End result, he left, didn't he? :brolleyes:

and it sounds like he still wasn't sure! fortunately most people aren't so forward or rude, and many times they behave differently when in groups. but your guy doesn't need a group to show how ignorant he is! you handled it well, I learned a lot of things from my "working" t-gf's, one was to never get spooked! meaning even when you are read, you never lose your cool and confidence. I can remember a much worse scenario on the way to a club one night, a group (a lot!) of teens hanging out in the area surrounded myself and some other friends. they followed us all the way to the club, there were males and females taunting and such, it was a long 2 block walk! I thought I'd have to fight my way out, but although they got in our space, no one was ever touched. it was a mob! :eek:

[Badtranny]

This is true but if you have any hope of passing then you would be throwing it away by going in the mens room. It's essentially outing yourself.

I don't live in a fantasy world, "passing" comes from the outside not the inside and I honestly don't care anymore if I get "read" as a dude. Cripes, I look like a dude most of the time, TG people would do well to open their eyes and see things for how they really are and not how we would like them to be.

In regard to outing myself? Too late, I'm already as out as I can possibly be with pants on. ;-)

[Starling]

I'm sorry, Sandra-Leigh. I certainly meant no offense with my question. I was simply curious, as your description of your appearance sounded pretty feminine to me. I would never presume to determine bathroom etiquette for someone else.

The only ladies' room I have ever used was at the LGBT clinic, at the urging of the intake person there, and I was fully dressed.

In fact, I need guidance. When I'm in my usual women's drawstring pants, t-shirt and flip-flops, wearing a baseball cap on my bald head, I use the men's and shrug off the occasional fisheye. But if I'm fully dressed, shod, wigged, formed and made up and have been accepted without commotion, should I still use the men's? I honestly don't know.

If I haven't already, I out myself at checkstands, of course, when I present my ID and credit card. But even so, I don't know if I could handle a public men's toilet.

:) Lallie

PS: I haven't been to a mall.

[sandra-leigh]

I'm sorry, Sandra-Leigh. I certainly meant no offense with my question. I was simply curious, as your description of your appearance sounded pretty feminine to me. I would never presume to determine bathroom etiquette for someone else.


No offense taken.

You can see pretty much what I looked like over here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?169016-on-not-choosing-the-WRONG-name&p=2752877&viewfull=1#post2752877). Same jacket but a white top, and my photo-sensitive glasses would have been clear. Same distinctively big nose, same bad hair part :o

There has been a lot of debate over which washroom to use. There are a lot of legal considerations that can vary from borough to borough within cities within states within countries. An often repeated theme is to use the washroom corresponding to the gender you are presenting as. Problem for me is that I'm usually not really presenting as one or the other.

A problem I've encountered repeatedly is which washroom to use if I am going in to the washroom specifically to transform. For example, if I wore a dress on the bus to just shy of my workplace, I need to change between gender presentations before I go to work. Or vice versus, if I am changing after work to put on a dress, which washroom then? Gets complicated.

If you are in a rough neighborhood, there might not be any safe answer -- even dressed as a male, you might come across as a "pretty boy". You need "situational awareness".

[Starling]

The time really has come for unisex one-bangers.

:) Lallie

PS: As for my hair, any part that I might part has departed.