Third Gender

[Foxglove]

Hi, Guys and Girls!

There’s currently a thread going on this forum, “Are you okay with being transgendered?”, and it has given me a lot to think about concerning where I am with my TGism—and a tip of the hat (or the wig) to Marleena for that. I’ve decided to start a new thread on this issue, because I think my remarks here might derail Marleena’s thread.

I had an interesting experience yesterday. I went to Dublin for some shopping and also to meet a friend of mine, Deirdre, whom I originally got in contact with through an LGBT centre in Dublin. When I first contacted that centre, I gave them my real name (Annabelle) rather than that other name I’ve been saddled with all my life. Now as Deirdre and I were arranging to meet, I never bothered to give her my other name. So when we met at the centre yesterday, she greeted me as “Annabelle”, even though I was in drab, since that was the only name she had for me. And rather than making me feel awkward—this was the first time in my life that anybody had greeted me face-to-face by that name—it made me feel very nice. That’s where I am with my TGism these days.

But it occurs to me that there is a psychological barrier that cisgender people are certainly struggling with, and I think that perhaps some of us TG’s might be struggling with it as well. This barrier is the traditional conception of the male-female divide—but I know that within me, as I come more and more to accept my TGism, that barrier is beginning to crumble.

What I’m saying is this: I’m beginning to no longer see myself as a man, though obviously I know full well that I’m not female either. Am I a guy who has a pronounced “feminine side”, or a guy who longs to be a woman? I’m beginning to see myself as TG and nothing else. I’m very confused about a lot of things right now. One of my problems is trying to decide whether I’m male or female. If I accept that I’m just TG, for me it not only simplifies my thinking, but it also might be the correct way of thinking.

So if someone were to ask me if I’m a man, I’d cheerfully reply (assuming that there was no social stigma attached to the statement), “No. I’m TG.” And just as men enjoy and take pride in their maleness and women enjoy and take pride in their femaleness, I’m beginning to get enjoy and take pride in my TGism. It’s me, and why should I not feel a normal human pride in what I am?

What I’m beginning to grasp emotionally is the notion that exists/has existed in other cultures—the notion of a Third Gender (and in this post you may read “TG” as “Transgender” or “Third Gender” as you like). And I’m wondering if we TG’s aren’t making a strategic error in our thinking. Maybe I’m wrong about this, but it seems to me we TG’s are asking for the right to be male or female, according to our individual preferences, when what we should be looking for is the right to be recognized as TG.

This notion has many implications for me. First, in all legal aspects TG would be recognized as a sex/gender along with male and female. That is, in legal documents and records people would be listed as male, female or TG, as the case might be. I believe that TG people should have the further right to be recorded as TGM or TGF, depending on how they prefer to present (or simply as TG if, for whatever reason, they don’t wish to declare a preference). This is to say that for all legal purposes I could declare myself to be "Annabelle Larousse, TGF".

I think that in situations where a person needs to be clearly identified, as in dealings with banks or going through airport security, someone like me who declared herself as TGF would be required to present as female. But that would be no burden whatsoever on me, since that’s my preference.

This notion of a third gender would also relieve us TG’s of a certain sort of pressure we’re under. Right now a lot of us feel the need “to pass”—either as male or female, depending on the individual case. But as a TGF, I’m no longer under any pressure to pass as female—because I’m not female. I’m TGF. And that means that I have the right to define my femininity for myself, in the same way that a GG has the right to define her femininity for herself. TGM’s would have the right to define their masculinity for themselves, just as GM’s have the right to define their masculinity for themselves. That is, I would not be under pressure to conform to some standard of womanhood established by others. I’m not a woman and I don’t have to try to be one. I’m TGF, and I decide what that means to me and how I wish to express it.

GG’s often ask us, “What do you know about what it’s like to be a woman?” And they’re right—we don’t know anything about it. But we don’t have to know anything about it. We can turn the question around and ask, “What do you know about what it’s like to be TGF?” My presentation of my TGism is the expression of myself and my nature, not of anyone else’s.

I believe what I would do is get a necklace made with a pendant that would be the symbol of my TGism. I believe I’d choose the combined Mars-Venus symbols, as in this forum’s logo. I’d wear that necklace everywhere, so that if anyone harassed me as “a man in a dress” or asked me if I really thought I could be a woman, I could just say, “Look at my necklace, eejit! I’m not a man or a woman. I’m TGF.”

For cisgenders, the removal of this psychological barrier would put to rest problems such as the one encountered recently by that Tennessee senator who hasn’t yet realized that the human race has left the Stone Age—the one who declared he would stomp to a pulp any man who thinks he’s a woman and who tries to use the women’s loo. “My good sir, I don’t think I’m a woman. Look at my necklace. I know exactly what I am—TGF. I’m using this loo because I present as female, and therefore this one is the more appropriate of the two. If you want to build another loo for us TGF’s, and another one for the TGM’s, go ahead. But don’t tell me to use the men’s because you think I’m a man. I’m not a man. I’m TGF.” Even vintage Stone Agers might have the intellectual power to grasp the notion of three, rather than two.

Within our own circles, this notion might help put an end to certain prejudices we hold—e.g., against those men who CD without making any effort to pass as women, to the point that they don’t even shave or wear a wig. Their presentation as TG’s is a blend of the male and female—and after all, isn’t that kind of what TGism is? None of us would any longer be under pressure to present as anything. We would all express our TGism as we saw fit and without prejudice.

And think how wonderful it would have been, if at about the age of 12 or 13 I had been taken to see a psychologist from a state health agency who explained to me, “Up to now you been recognized as male because that matches your outward appearance. From now on, however, you’ll be correctly recognized as TG.” And he/she would have explained to me what TGism was, would have helped me to understand myself and would have informed me that I could call myself anything I wanted and could present in any way I wanted. Just as a male or female has the right to decide on their lifestyles for themselves, I as a TG person would have the right to decide on my lifestyle. I would no longer have been under any pressure to try to be something I wasn’t—though my parents would have been under considerable pressure to buy me as many pretty dresses as my sister had.

I see many advantages in moving away from this notion of two. We TG’s wouldn’t have to try to emulate either of the other sexes. There would of course be many questions that would have to be addressed. E.g., would someone who fully transitions be regarded as male or female, or would they continue to be regarded as TGM or TGF? That’s a question on which those who have transitioned should be consulted. There will always be difficulties with TGism because it is a difficult thing. But I’m getting to the point where I’m no longer regarding myself as a man. I’m TG, the Big Number Three, and I’m becoming more and more comfortable with that notion. I’m not a degenerate brand of man, nor am I a wannabe woman who will never make the grade. I’m TG, the Big Number Three, and what you see is what you get. But of course with us TG’s, you never know what you’re going to see. God, we’re fabulous!

Best wishes, Annabelle

[larry07]

Interesting thoughts. I would probably stick with TG and not refine it further to TGF or TGM. I prefer not to emulate either M or F, but to mix it up between the two.

[STACY B]

UK ,,, OH,,, GUESS what I have an idea ,, Just say that Girl is 1st an Boy ie 2nd ,, Well here we go ,, 1st thats when im feeling naughty an lady like an proper an want to go shopping an get my nails done an hair done , an get some clothes an shoes Ahhhhhh man outta monet 2nd back to work get dirty an sweaty an do a bunch of stuff that I done want to do but im broke an just want those shoes opps 1st thinking about shoes an clothes ,,,what wait ,,, 2nd back to bizz gotta consontrate work ,,, work,, dont think about it dont think about those ,,,,,1st heels that I want an what can I wear with em if I do buy em ,,noo,,no,,2nd work dummy dont think about that rite now just think about shoes 1st dammit 2nd work ,,, make some money work,,, 1st ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,come leave me alone till I get done ,,,,, come onnnnnnnn 1st,,,,1st,,,,2nd,,,noooo1st OK U WIN ... A glimps into my MIND !!!! 1st !!!!! MOSTLY !

[Cynthia Anne]

Ok ok Annabelle! You have convince me! Now your mission is to convince the rest of the world and make it a universal law! If you so accept this mission please keep us inform on the progress you're making! Thank you! Hugs!

[Jeanna]

UK ,,, OH,,, GUESS what I have an idea ,, Just say that Girl is 1st an Boy ie 2nd ,, Well here we go ,, 1st thats when im feeling naughty an lady like an proper an want to go shopping an get my nails done an hair done , an get some clothes an shoes Ahhhhhh man outta monet 2nd back to work get dirty an sweaty an do a bunch of stuff that I done want to do but im broke an just want those shoes opps 1st thinking about shoes an clothes ,,,what wait ,,, 2nd back to bizz gotta consontrate work ,,, work,, dont think about it dont think about those ,,,,,1st heels that I want an what can I wear with em if I do buy em ,,noo,,no,,2nd work dummy dont think about that rite now just think about shoes 1st dammit 2nd work ,,, make some money work,,, 1st ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,come leave me alone till I get done ,,,,, come onnnnnnnn 1st,,,,1st,,,,2nd,,,noooo1st OK U WIN ... A glimps into my MIND !!!! 1st !!!!! MOSTLY !

,,,and it keeps revolving in my sick little mind too,,..nooooo it's normal,,,ok 1st you got me this time but next time I'll stand up to you after you buy me those pink heels!

[Contessa]

Yes I am convinced too. I suppose I was there all along, before you started typing. This morning on Sat, I now am TG sometimes F and sometimes M. I will add to my signature this.

Annabelle if we go forth the notion that we need to make law, then lets go girl. Maybe just saying you are is enough.

In my progression I felt the difference and now I am sure. There will be most that don't feel this way and that is fine cause I don't have to change anything. Now I know why my closet looks like it does.

Tess

[noeleena]

Hi,

Okay some of us are intersexed so in some ways we could be refered to as third gender, i dont ,& im not sureof others many of those i know on 3 other forums dont use it , here we dont, & we dont use being trans or dressers .

One reason being we think differently to dressers & trans , thats not a issue ether, for some of us our bodys are different & it can be confusing as well for some,.

As to passing as ether, i dont & to tell the truth im not bothered its about being accepted for who you are as a person not what clothes you wear .

Iv just come back from a evening as of now , we had 400 people mixed & children for our Multicultural = Race relastions group . had a sit down pot luck meal .
Now im well known as im doing the photography & have done & this is my 3 rd time 3rd year , I had Jos our daughter & her 4 kids with us ,

Im in front i wellcome people i get to know them talk a lot with them & do my photos .

so quite a few come over from Tonga & the islands who i know & we say hi & talk to when i meet up with them down the street while they are here working for 3 months of the year,

What im trying to impress on people is they accept me the way i am, yes i dress in my female clothes yet do i look like a female youd have to ask them , they ......dont care.....we give each other a hug when we meet .

We can lable our selfs till dooms day call our selfs what ever does it really matter. well in this case not as far as those 400 people are concerned thats for sure, you see what im getting at, if my acceptance was based on how i look or my voice or my facial features then i would not be accepted for who i am they look beyound what i dont look like , & accept my self reguardless, yes im a mix of both male & female . so what im still accepted,

Accept your self.... be.... who you are , im doing that & you know what it works well its proved so many times for myself .

Im a member of women only groups & world wide, those who know me in our groups is over 1000 people,
Its about being accepted,

...noeleena...

[Foxglove]

Now your mission is to convince the rest of the world and make it a universal law!

Well, I don't if I can do it this weekend, since I'm kind of busy. But it's definitely on my To-do List.

My post is to a certain extent just speculation. What if we were recognized as a Third Gender? I think that would be to our advantage (any sort of recognition would be to our advantage). But mainly, emotionally, I'm beginning to feel separate from others. It's a deep down sort of identity, not just a set of superficial things that I do, such as CDing.

Yesterday, when I met my friend Deirdre, it really came home to me. She's the first Trans-woman I've ever met face-to-face, and it really struck me: we're different from them. Yes, there are all sorts of varieties of TG people, but yesterday I felt very starkly a fundamental difference between "us" and "them". I felt a special affinity for Deirdre in a way that I've never felt for anyone before.

How well what I'm saying here can be justified intellectually, I don't know, and I think there are all sorts of problems with what I've written in my OP. But I'm talking about what I feel. And more and more I'm beginning to feel like I belong to a third group. Maybe my thinking will become clearer as my feelings do.

Annabelle

[Sandra1746]

Am I transgender? Probably but it would be hard to prove medically. Psychologically the proof is a bit easier but there are few "hard" tests or rules in the field of psychology. A MD can easily test for high blood sugar but no similar test exists for "transgender spectrum". The same problem exists in children with a definition of "Autism Spectrum disorder". Intersex is a different issue entirely and that is medically more easily recognized.

Do I mind being considered "transgender"; no. Will society in general accept that; probably not now but maybe sometime. Attitudes change over time. Think interracial marriage as an example. It was illegal in many states until the Supreme Court ruled in the "Virginia vs Loving" case in 1967. That ruling didn't guarantee "acceptance" but time has changed opinions. The topic of Gay Marriage is presently following this evolutionary path.

What to do? Probably the best thing we as TGs can do is be ourselves, be polite and be willing to state our views firmly. Acting within the political system by working to get laws changed to represent our views is also probably good too. It is a slow process with no guarantee of success but it has been shown to work.

Anybody who wants to may call me Sandra, or Sandy, in public anytime.

Love to all,
Sandra1746

[Laura912]

My first reaction is that the labels do not matter because the nasties will use their own label and the others probably just do not care. But to have a public discussion beyond this site, then a label with proper definition would help those who are truly interested in learning more about "us." I wonder just how many people that really encompasses?

[Marleena]

Great thread Annabelle!

My mind immediately went to the earthworm! Why? Because they can truly change sexes, male or female. Can you imagine saying here my turn to receive! It makes me wonder how they decide though, do they flip a coin? lol.

We are all looking for answers and this third gender idea has come up before. The big flaw with it is in the animal kingdom there is only male and female although some swing both ways.:)

I think if somebody came out today and said "hey there is a third gender!". Everybody would say WTF?

The transgender umbrella is likely to stay as it makes things much neater. Just my opinion.:)

[Lorileah]

http://native-americans-of-the-southwest.info/twospirits.htm

Wiser people than we have always considered that gender was not a static or fixed thing.

[Foxglove]

I think if somebody came out today and said "hey there is a third gender!". Everybody would say WTF?

The transgender umbrella is likely to stay as it makes things much neater. Just my opinion.:)

If TG were accepted as a third gender, it would still be an umbrella term. There's a lot of variation among TG people today, and there always will be. We're an unruly lot.

[Marleena]

If TG were accepted as a third gender, it would still be an umbrella term. There's a lot of variation among TG people today, and there always will be. We're an unruly lot.

Yeah we confuse the hell out of everybody.:)

[Foxglove]

Yeah we confuse the hell out of everybody.:)

Especially ourselves.

[Marleena]

Especially ourselves.

That is so true!! Who do I want to be today? lol.

[JohnH]

One thing I can think of - what businesses need to do is to modify men's restrooms so that the urinals would be walled off from the general area and stalls would be made more private. That way genetic women and transgendered individuals could use the the restroom.

On M2F HRT my body is gradually assuming a more feminine shape. However, I don't think I will raise the pitch of my basso speaking voice. That way I could look like Dolly Parton but sound like Johnny Cash! (Well, not quite like Dolly - but with decent sized breasts and an hourglass figure nonetheless.)

Johanna

[Lyric]

I wouldn't state a number when counting genders. That could start a whole other discussion. I know very much what you mean, though. I knew I wasn't ever going to be a "Man" man early in life. In recent years I've felt very much that what I am seems more like a separate gender, a "cross-sexual" perhaps. In fact I've used that term to describe myself before. I will always dispute those who write all crossdressers off as perverted "fetishists". The problem is that with so little (and such varied) social definition of who we are, few of us even feel clear about it ourselves. So you can't really expect others to fully understand, either. Add to that the fact that "crossdresser" really only describes one's wardrobe habits and there can be a variety of different types of individuals who fall under that category.

Still, there is very much an increase in public interest and acceptance going on. I love the success of fashion models like Andrej Pejic. I recently ran across a YouTube video featuring nothing but a teenage boy putting on makeup, a wig and a dress. That video received over 1.5 million views in only 2 days. That's a whole lot of public interest.

Lyric

[Dawn cd]

I see where you're going with this, but I think the notion of a distinct third gender just complicates things. Will we have Men's, Women's and Third Gender restrooms? Will state legislatures have to approve marriages between men and Third Genders, or women and Third Genders? Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.

[Shelly Preston]

Recently I had reason to complete a survey

This was from the local police asking about the service they provide and is it up to an expected standard and were they doing everything they can.

However they did ask for some personal information.

One question was a real big surprise

Do you or have you ever identified as Transgender

It would seem we are making some progress even if we are not perceived as a third gender

[Foxglove]

I see where you're going with this, but I think the notion of a distinct third gender just complicates things.

Yes, I agree it complicates things, but I think that's good if things are too simple. And I'm beginning to feel things are too simple. I'm certainly not a man like most, and I'm not a "woman" like any. So what exactly am I? I'm beginning to feel that I'm TG, which is distinct from male and female.


Will we have Men's, Women's and Third Gender restrooms? Will state legislatures have to approve marriages between men and Third Genders, or women and Third Genders?

I don't know. It's questions like this that would have to be resolved (and I have every confidence that state legislatures will resolve them competently). It's what legislators are paid to do. Let them earn their pay.

But the point here is to make certain people (us) happier. If it makes things a bit more complicated that's fine with me, because how happy are all of us when people try to fit us into the male/female scheme?


Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.

That's exactly what I'm doing, Dawn--recognizing that gender is more fluid than the traditional male/female scheme. If you don't fit into "my" Third Gender (it's not really mine), you're probably better off.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Gender doesn't feel fluid at all to me... and i bet the vast majority of transsexuals would say the same thing...

I admit bias based on my own life, and lots of experience counseling tg and ts people...

cisgender people have no ability to comprehend what its like to be transsexual (non cisgender)....that includes crossdressing guys...this is often the cause of many conflicts imho...

i wonder if as a "uni" gendered person, i have no ability to comprehend what it's like to be "bi/multi" gendered...

but from my observations , being really really into your femme side does not make you multi gendered... being really sick and tired of all the male bs doesnt make you "not a man"...having lots of feminine traits has absolutely nothing to do with your gender
it is deeper than that... In

my own personal experience (which has btw been borne out in my life through many people) i've found that people that say they are bi gendered are either very into messing around sexually as a guy in femme mode, or ts in denial that suffer through years and years of frustration, fear and dysphoria because they just can't face the reality of their gender situation..

So I have a hard time thinking gender is fluid...
I think its more about personal self acceptance, and the pleasure/escape/release people get from presenting AND thinking of themselves as the opposite gender..

[elizabethamy]

Imagine you're a judge: Annabelle's case is powerful and beautifully presented. Yet, as others say, there are indeed only two genders in nature, at least physically. And Kaitlyn Michelle speaks the opposite of Annabelle, from a place of experience and power.

This is why courts decide things 3-2 and 5-4. Wow. What an interesting thread.

elizabethamy

[Kristyn Hill]

Interesting reads for sure.

[Acastina]

I see where you're going with this, but I think the notion of a distinct third gender just complicates things. Will we have Men's, Women's and Third Gender restrooms? Will state legislatures have to approve marriages between men and Third Genders, or women and Third Genders? Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.

I think Annabelle pretty much addressed the public-restroom issue by basing the choice on presentation, which makes a lot of sense theoretically as well as pragmatically. In fact, it's what most of us who do go out more than a little have usually done. If a using an inappropriate facility can be considered disorderly conduct (the usual catchall criminal category), it's plainly more disorderly for a male (concealed genetic and genital category) presenting as a woman (social category) to use the men's room. In my considerable experience, it's never been a problem.

As for marriage, I don't see any reason why, with marriage equality, all restrictions save underage, involuntary, or less-than-sane wouldn't simply go away. After all, if it's "same-sex" marriage that's at issue, male, female, or intersexed shouldn't make a difference. Right now, the debate is whether unambiguous males or females can marry the same as well as the opposite. It follows logically that sex-ambiguous and gender-ambiguous individuals should have the same freedom to choose. There is a side issue in same-sex marriage, the status of fully transitioned TS's; that too would become moot with marriage equality.

Finally, I agree completely with your point about gender fluidity. I personally prefer the term "intergendered", analogously to "intersexed", to express my condition. There is a binary, and I'm somewhere in between, but not at some fixed point. One can be intergendered near the male binary pole or near the female binary pole, and many, like me, have a fairly broad range within which we express gender. That's my main conceptual difficulty with the "trans-" terminology: it reinforces the binary by presuming a void, a no-person's-land, between genders that can only be transgressed, not occupied.

My own life experience makes me rebel against having to choose between two mutually exclusive boxes or be disregarded as not authentically human.:tongueout

[Beverley Sims]

Victor Borge said it years ago.
"There are three sexes in Denmark, male,female and convertible."
Ref: Coronet LP Caught in the Act.

[Foxglove]

http://native-americans-of-the-southwest.info/twospirits.htm

Wiser people than we have always considered that gender was not a static or fixed thing.


Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.


Gender doesn't feel fluid at all to me... and i bet the vast majority of transsexuals would say the same thing...

Having re-read some of these recent posts, I get the feeling that some of us are beginning to talk about different things--most of the difficulty here revolving around this word "fluid".

From her quote above, I believe that Lorileah is using the word in the same sense that I am. When I say that "gender expression is fluid", I'm looking at things from a societal standpoint. That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions. For me, this is simplistic and untrue. There is ground occupied by TG's that doesn't fit into the traditional scheme. Furthermore, we TG's are a motley group, and it's not at all easy to classify us. Therefore, viewing the situation "from above", on the level of society as a whole, there is some unsteady ground in the middle. This is what I mean by a "fluid" situation.

But Dawn and Kaitlyn may be looking at things from an individual point of view. That is, they're raising the question as to whether an individual's gender expression can be fluid.

Now I don't want to put words in these three girls' mouths. I'll confess I'm not exactly sure what they're saying, and I may have misunderstood. If they want to clarify and correct me, they're welcome to do so. At any rate, I feel we're saying two different things because we're looking at the question from different angles.

Also, I'll clarify something that I probably didn't make explicit enough in my OP. I do see a significant difference between those people who have transitioned and those of us who haven't. The former's experience, I believe, is significantly different from ours, and it may be that the only factor we have in common is that we all raise questions relating to our sex and gender. How do those who have transitioned perceive themselves and their experience? I say nothing about that, but leave it to them. Which is why I believe that in my "utopia" where TG people are given recognition as a Third Gender, exactly how those who have transitioned would fit into any legislation being devised would need to be determined by their views, not by anyone else's.

Also, I hope that people will understand here that I'm not trying to draw up some kind of grand scheme for the re-ordering of society. I'm simply stating that I'm beginning to feel, on a deep level, that I'm different, that I don't fit into the simplistic, traditional scheme that society has erected. I feel I belong in a different group altogether. What exactly are the implications for myself and society, I'm not at all sure at this time.



...having lots of feminine traits has absolutely nothing to do with your gender
it is deeper than that...


This is what I was driving at in my OP. I'm beginning to feel my difference at a very deep level. I used to perceive myself as a man who had a very shameful perversion. I no longer consider myself either shameful or perverted. I'm beginning to feel that I am what I am, and what I am is different. My behavior, e.g., my CDing is only a manifestation of my nature. I'm beginning, I think, to get a glimpse of my nature at a deeper level, and that glimpse is precisely what is leading me to believe that I belong to a different group besides male and female.

Despite the significant differences among those of us who are classed as "TG", I think at bottom we share many similarities that outweigh our differences. That's why we can all get together on a forum like this--albeit with considerable squabbling and mutual recriminations at times. That's why I myself tend to group all of us together in my thinking. But of course other people's thinking may be different.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Mona]

Establishing a 'third' gender could help in pushing understanding and acceptance towards an ideal where gender would be recognized as individual and a continuum.

[Foxglove]

Establishing a 'third' gender could help in pushing understanding and acceptance towards an ideal where gender would be recognized as individual and a continuum.

Yes. This is why the idea is important to me. It emphasizes that we're not just confused and misled men and women, but rather something totally different that people need to get to grips with.

[KellyJameson]

In my opinion the third gender is the result of becoming less animal like, not just a part of nature but something else. Think about extreme forms of masculinity, it is very war like and based on the values born in nature (survival instinct).

There is a absence of sensitivity, gentleness,compassion,empathy,respect for life,love. All the higher forms of thinking. Extreme forms of masculinity and femininity equal violence because they are expressions of a cunning animal not a spiritual being.

The third gender is a evolutionary necessity, it was destined to be by design to help others out of the darkness of are animal roots. Transgendered are the tip of the arrow that the shaft of humanity will follow eventually, all spirituality has been born from this because true spirituality transcends the limits of the physical animal we are housed in and those who hold both female and male in one mind become conduits for higher awareness. It is a curse because it sets you apart from others but a blessing because it offers opportunity for enlightenment.

Everything in the human drama is about the tension between human animal and the spirit that resides inside. We are not just woman trapped in male bodies we are spirit trapped in animal bodies. The problem is two-fold and this is why the transgendered have always been with us and always will and their numbers must increase by design. Eventually everyone will be a third gender, the whole world is trying to escape the limits imposed on them because of their biological sex in one form or another.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Why can't we just be Crossdressers that says it all.

[Joanne f]

I use to think of myself as 3G ( third Gender) which in one sense sounds like a fixed state ,nether one or the other where as Transgendered sounds like you are a mix of both genders , not sure which would be most suitable in explaining what i am .

[Foxglove]

Why can't we just be Crossdressers that says it all.


I use to think of myself as 3G ( third Gender) which in one sense sounds like a fixed state ,nether one or the other where as Transgendered sounds like you are a mix of both genders , not sure which would be most suitable in explaining what i am .

We all have this problem--what term to use. I've done some chopping and changing myself. And whichever term we use, it's not going to explain what we are, any more than the term "woman" will come close to saying all there is to say about a given woman.

The point I'm raising is, are we justified in regarding ourselves as a third gender distinct from male and female. If so, and if society as a whole agreed with us, then we'd adopt (or be given) a name that would be inadequate for various reasons. But it's not the term itself that interests me. It's whether we can be regarded as a distinct gender.

The reason I prefer to think that we are is this: there are members of this forum who are happy to declare themselves "men who like to wear dresses". But I don't feel that way myself. For me, it's more like this:

"Why do you like to wear dresses?"
"That's just the way I am. It's in my nature. I'm TG."
"But you're a man! You're not supposed to want to wear them!"
"That's just the point. I'm not a man. I'm TG."

This is the way I feel about things now. I'm coming to see myself as something truly distinct from the vast majority. But I speak only for myself, of course. Others perceive themselves differently.

Annabelle

[Joanne f]

I know exactly what you mean , the problem is others see us for what we look like on the out side where as we see us for what we feel on the inside, maybe we should have been born with blue skin or something, that would stop any confusion :D

[busker]

Having re-read some of these recent posts, I get the feeling that some of us are beginning to talk about different things--most of the difficulty here revolving around this word "fluid".

From her quote above, I believe that Lorileah is using the word in the same sense that I am. When I say that "gender expression is fluid", I'm looking at things from a societal standpoint

That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions

Isn't that the point--you are pitting yourself against "society" and for them you don't conform. society as a group could care less how many genders you might think there are. As a group, society is conformist even in its oddities or dress or whatever. millions of women wear leggings, millions of guys guys go to football games.



I do see a significant difference between those people who have transitioned and those of us who haven't. The former's experience, I believe, is significantly different from ours, and it may be that the only factor we have in common is that we all raise questions relating to our sex and gender.

Too bad there is so little data to make any kind of hypotheses. There isn't even any firm number of how many of "us" are out there. How many TS are post-op, how many pre-op and what are their experiences. Suicides seem to be prevalent among their ranks. Bad decision? Couldn't adjust to what they believed was the best course. Expectations that could never be met? Everything is anecdotal, and how much is trustworthy? How can anyone make life decisions based on such evidence as is available?
Society at large can hardly tolerate men with gynecomastia and according to the Gyn.org 14000 men and boys had double mastectomies (2009 ) probably due to self image and public ridicule.
How do those who have transitioned perceive themselves and their experience? . Expecting society to change in any real way in this century is madness. everything that is now done in the name of gender is done via legislation--not that all men/women are born equal. In an equal society, it is a given that there are differences that we all accept. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.--legislation doesn't really change how people think about something, it just forces them to accept the law. Hate crimes exist despite the laws against them.


I feel I belong in a different group altogether.

This is strictly your mental construct. It could very well be a rationalization for just perceiving yourself as different. The only person that needs to accept your gender feelings is you. If you wish to present to society as something other than a male, that will be at your own risk of acceptance, which will not likely be forthcoming. Isn't it better to "live in one's head peacefully" than try to live among to Neandethals in the open? I think focusing on what we do in life, is more important than how we seem to be in doing it. Focusing constantly on "specialness" distracts from living and doing. fine, you are different, the rest of us are different, and then what?



Best wishes, Annabelle
ps
I'm also curious on how you mean intersexed. Is that a psychological state? or are we talking here of biological status of being a hermaphrodite?

I've made comments interspersed in your text

[Pythos]

One need only take a look at some threads here to see just a sampling of the opposition this idea would face. I am not in any way saying this is a bad idea, in fact I think it would be an ideal, however there are so many that are hopelessly entrenched in the two gender Idea that they cannot understand the idea that sex and gender are both separate and on a continuum.

Frankly I just wish the intersexed condition was the norm and not the exception, I think sexism would go the hell away or possibly not even exist. But if you look around, you will find people that just cannot see there being a third gender, not even members here.

[NathalieX66]

What's a third gender? Does that mean there's this additional kind of chromosome or sexual organ? I feel like this is camparing baseball to cricket.
I'm happy with being gender fluid, it's an enhancement of my personality. In fact, gender is meaningless to me, why are we a gender anyway? Crossdressing just makes me feel like some dude in a dress.

[Pythos]

Natalie, you need to read the OP.

YOu just described one aspect of the idea. Though in reality a third gender is someone that is intersexed and has no "corrective surgery".

[Foxglove]

Hello, Busker! I have to admit I’m not sure what the drift of your post is. At times it seems you’re agreeing with me only then to go on to indicate that you think I’m mistaken. E.g., I said,

That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions . . .

To which you replied,


Isn't that the point--you are pitting yourself against "society" and for them you don't conform. society as a group could care less how many genders you might think there are. As a group, society is conformist even in its oddities or dress or whatever. millions of women wear leggings, millions of guys guys go to football games.

And I’m not sure what the point of that is. “I’m pitting myself against society.” Perhaps. What I said was that I’m beginning to feel a certain distance between myself and other people. So am I pitting myself against them, or was I always pitted against them and am just now starting to perceive it? I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about that.

And yes, I’m aware that people can often be conformist, and that a lot of them don’t care what I think. I do factor that into my thinking. But I just can’t see what this has to do with my OP.

And then you said,

Expecting society to change in any real way in this century is madness. everything that is now done in the name of gender is done via legislation--not that all men/women are born equal. In an equal society, it is a given that there are differences that we all accept. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.--legislation doesn't really change how people think about something, it just forces them to accept the law. Hate crimes exist despite the laws against them.

I’d say that expecting society to change any time soon to accommodate us TG’s is very optimistic, maybe even unrealistically so, but it’s certainly not madness. The position of racial minorities in the US is much better now than it was in my youth. Not perfect: change is slow, but it does occur. And true, legislation doesn’t change how people think, but as people change the way they think, legislation often changes to reflect that. And yes, legislation forces people to accept the law, even if they don’t want to; and yes, hate crimes exist despite the laws against them. But if someone who dislikes me refrains from assaulting me because they fear the law, I’d prefer that they accepted me, but if they don’t, I’ll content myself with the fact that they’re not actually assaulting me. And if a hate crime is committed, it can be punished. Better that, than letting it go unchallenged and unpunished.

Then I said,

I feel I belong in a different group altogether.

To which you replied,

This is strictly your mental construct. It could very well be a rationalization for just perceiving yourself as different.

Well, yes, my feeling is “my mental construct”, if you want to put it that way. That’s kind of what feelings are. And do I need a “rationalization” for perceiving myself as different? I’m coming to perceive myself as fundamentally different from others. I feel different, I say so. Where’s the rationalization?

And then you conclude (with my replies in between),

The only person that needs to accept your gender feelings is you. If you wish to present to society as something other than a male, that will be at your own risk of acceptance, which will not likely be forthcoming. [Yes, I realize other people might not accept me. But if they did, they’d be better people, and my life would be happier. In that sense, they “need” to accept me.]

Isn't it better to "live in one's head peacefully" than try to live among to Neandethals in the open? [That’s your opinion. Others disagree. I’m not sure what I think about that at the moment.]

I think focusing on what we do in life, is more important than how we seem to be in doing it. Focusing constantly on "specialness" distracts from living and doing. [Focusing on specialness will change my perception of myself. E.g., I used to think of myself as a guy with a disgusting and shameful perversion. I’ve changed my mind now. Which means I’ll probably change the way I live. I’m not distracting myself from living—I’m deciding how I want to live.]

fine, you are different, the rest of us are different, and then what? [We get on with living in the way we see fit.]

Finally, you asked,

I'm also curious on how you mean intersexed. Is that a psychological state? or are we talking here of biological status of being a hermaphrodite?

I didn’t say anything about “intersexed” and have no thoughts to offer on that subject right now.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Joanne f]

I have just had this horrible thought , if i ask myself the question " what gender am i" i come up with a simple answer " I DON`T KNOW, so rather than having the chromosome that makes me feel like one or the other gender i am in this middle space , unable to tell you , so 3G or TG will work for me as it sounds a lot better than I DON`T KNOW if someone ask`s me what gender are you :)

[Foxglove]

I have just had this horrible thought , if i ask myself the question " what gender am i" i come up with a simple answer " I DON`T KNOW, so rather than having the chromosome that makes me feel like one or the other gender i am in this middle space , unable to tell you , so 3G or TG will work for me as it sounds a lot better than I DON`T KNOW if someone ask`s me what gender are you :)

That's kind of the way I feel about things right now. But I don't see any need to panic. Again, the actual term we use is of little importance. What's important is what's actually going on inside us and how we perceive those things. It's all of that I'm trying to figure out at the moment.

If someone asked me what gender I am, I could say, "TG," or "Undecided" or whatever, and they'd probably reply, "You're one misled and sick individual," and then I'd feel right at home again.

By the way, it's occurred to me that if TGism were accepted as a third sex/gender, then at a stroke any form of discrimination in the US would become illegal, given that the constitution forbids discrimination on the basis of one's sex (the 14th Amendment?). I think that would be a positive development.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Barbara Ella]

I have to agree with Joanne. I dont know. I am a man, and will feel that til the day i cease breathing, but i also have a deeply ingrained feminine side that seems to be the controlling factor in my being. i am not sure that I can call up one side or the other depending on my mood any more. In my day to day existence I am a confused young girl being exposed to the hard rigors of real life, and not sure if I like real life. I do so enjoy my sheltered existence as Babes. Can i continue this dual persona i do not know, I do know that my female persona is the strongest of the two at the present time.

Babes

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The problem with third gender is that it's really a "non gender"...
There is no third gender...there are either two genders or infinite genders..

If you are solid with yourself, then its not an issue, and you can say that labels are irrelevant and to you they are!! A good thing for your happiness and mental health...
Otherwise you are stuck in your own head, thinking of yourself as something that doesn't really resonate with your (or others) day to day life...

your gender goes to every human interaction.....there is no nuance or subtlety to it.. if you see a person, you register their gender at the deepest levels of your brain, and there is no subtlety to it..its primal...it's instinct..and there is no instinct that registers "other" when people interact with you.

I'm not saying a person can't present "queer" or can't possibly think of themselves as mixed gender......what i'm saying is that there is no way to have a 3rd gender be reflected back at you without actually telling people or wearing a sign...

When you dress female you are hopefully perceived and treated as female..at all other times you are perceived as male.....

[elizabethamy]

Kaitlyn Michelle, I think you are right...something primal about the two-gender situation, which is why it's going to be very hard to overcome, no matter how willful and determined the "third gender" people are. hmmm. this, of course, presents a gigantic problem for those in the middle, which is why they (we) are stressed out about it!

elizabethamy

[Joanne f]

The problem with third gender is that it's really a "non gender"...
There is no third gender...there are either two genders or infinite genders..

If you are solid with yourself, then its not an issue, and you can say that labels are irrelevant and to you they are!! A good thing for your happiness and mental health...
Otherwise you are stuck in your own head, thinking of yourself as something that doesn't really resonate with your (or others) day to day life...

your gender goes to every human interaction.....there is no nuance or subtlety to it.. if you see a person, you register their gender at the deepest levels of your brain, and there is no subtlety to it..its primal...it's instinct..and there is no instinct that registers "other" when people interact with you.

I'm not saying a person can't present "queer" or can't possibly think of themselves as mixed gender......what i'm saying is that there is no way to have a 3rd gender be reflected back at you without actually telling people or wearing a sign...

When you dress female you are hopefully perceived and treated as female..at all other times you are perceived as male.....

Yes i expect that you are right in most of that but there is one thing that might slightly tip the scales in confusing people and that is when you dress and act in an androgynous way , quite often people will look twice at you because they are not sure , but as you say how often do you actually need a label.

[Veronica27]

Much of the difficulty in reaching an understanding about a subject such as this has to do with the evolution of language, specifically in this case, the English language. The words sex and gender each have a very basic fundamental meaning, and each have been broadened in scope and their meanings have been shifted away from that basic premise.

Webster's dictionary defines sex as: 1: either the female or the male division of a species, esp. as differentiated by reproductive function. 2: the structural and functional differences by which the female and male are distinguished. 3: sexual intercourse.

Gender is defined as: 1: a set of grammatical categories applied to nouns, as masculine, feminine or neuter, often correlated in part with sex or animateness. 2: sex.

Over time, usage has taken the word sex away from its primary and even secondary meanings, while elevating the importance of the third meaning. At the same time, the primary meaning of gender has been all but lost, as it has taken over much of the former function of the word sex. The inclusion of these last meanings in the dictionary definitions is simply a reflection of this change in common usage.

Getting back to basics, there are two sexes, male and female. While various conditions exist in life, (chromosomal anomalies, ambiguous or duplicate genitalia, etc.) they are very much in a minority and represent an abnormality rather than a third sex. On the other hand, there is no such thing as gender, except for the culturally contrived qualities imposed upon "things". These are considered to be masculine if they are similar to the qualities that a given society deems to be desirable in a male, feminine if they are similar to the qualities deemed to be desirable in a female and neuter if they are deemed to be applicable to either or both male and female, or to neither. Most societies have always taken this superficial gender differentiation to the extreme, by creating stereotypes for male and female human beings, that are applicable to our behaviour, appearance, mannerisms and so on. In doing so they go far beyond the simple "la" vs "le" grammatical distinction found in the French language for example.

We have reached a point where the term gender has taken on much of the meaning of the word sex, and the two are now considered by many to be interchangeable, which is a distortion of the historical context and their true meanings. Many people, especially those in this community, are aware of the fact that there is a difference between the two terms, and that gender means something other than our genitalia. We often hear it said that gender exists between our ears, rather than between our legs. However, what exists between our ears is our brain, and thus our consciousness. Everybody is different. Physically, that difference means that we can visibly distinguish one from another, despite the fact that we all have two arms, legs, eyes, ears, etc. but one nose, mouth and on and on. In a similar vein, we are all mentally different, and can be recognized by our personality, emotionality, intelligence etc. by those who know us. This often forms a larger part of how people describe us, than our simple physical differences.

The fact that some of us happen to crossdress is no different than the fact that some of us are musically inclined, or like to build model railways, or watch birds. Something within us has led us in that direction. It forms a part of our basic personality. There may be some aspects of the female to which we are attracted or drawn, which could lead us to want to occasionally emulate the female, or in more extreme cases, become a female. These could be a matter of their personality, their role in life, their appearance as dictated by society and fashion or anything else we see. Those same female aspects may not even be apparent to others, including crossdressers, who might see something entirely different. It is our own perspective that is driving us.

This is totally unrelated to "gender", however, as that is simply a stereotype formed by a society and culture that has concluded that certain qualities are masculine, feminine or neutral. None of us fit that stereotype exactly and some might say that we are all somewhere on a spectrum between masculine and feminine. However, our differences are so numerous and multi-directional, that it can be argued that there is no actual spectrum, as there are no defineable extremes. Even if there were a spectrum, it is between two fictitious concepts: masculinity and femininity.

Others differ in their opinions, and that is good, because it proves the very point I am making. We are all different. For me, gender does not exist, and therefore I do not support any terminology that incorporates the word gender, such as transgender or cisgender. As related to this topic, I cannot subscribe to a third gender argument, as we do not have a first or second gender. There are men and women, but there is no typical man or woman.

Veronica

[busker]

[QUOTE=Annabelle Larousse;2794215]Hello, Busker! I have to admit I’m not sure what the drift of your post is. At times it seems you’re agreeing with me only then to go on to indicate that you think I’m mistaken. E.g., I said,

That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions . . .

To which you replied,


Isn't that the point--you are pitting yourself against "society" and for them you don't conform. society as a group could care less how many genders you might think there are. As a group, society is conformist even in its oddities or dress or whatever. millions of women wear leggings, millions of guys guys go to football games.

And I’m not sure what the point of that is. “I’m pitting myself against society.” Perhaps. What I said was that I’m beginning to feel a certain distance between myself and other people. So am I pitting myself against them, or was I always pitted against them and am just now starting to perceive it? I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about that.

And yes, I’m aware that people can often be conformist, and that a lot of them don’t care what I think. I do factor that into my thinking. But I just can’t see what this has to do with my OP. I I guess I was trying to say that in conformity, people are only going to see 2 genders, so adding a third to the mix is probably going to cause more confusion than not. Besides, there are already 3 genders if one adds in hermaphrodite, and maybe even men with gynecomastia could be a 4th--I don't know.

And then you said,

Expecting society to change in any real way in this century is madness. everything that is now done in the name of gender is done via legislation--not that all men/women are born equal. In an equal society, it is a given that there are differences that we all accept. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.--legislation doesn't really change how people think about something, it just forces them to accept the law. Hate crimes exist despite the laws against them.

I’d say that expecting society to change any time soon to accommodate us TG’s is very optimistic, maybe even unrealistically so, but it’s certainly not madness. The position of racial minorities in the US is much better now than it was in my youth. Not perfect: change is slow, but it does occur. And true, legislation doesn’t change how people think, but as people change the way they think, legislation often changes to reflect that. And yes, legislation forces people to accept the law, even if they don’t want to; and yes, hate crimes exist despite the laws against them. But if someone who dislikes me refrains from assaulting me because they fear the law, I’d prefer that they accepted me, but if they don’t, I’ll content myself with the fact that they’re not actually assaulting me. And if a hate crime is committed, it can be punished. Better that, than letting it go unchallenged and unpunished. Well, I agree it is better to have laws on the books but you have no doubt read of the shooting in Florida and according to the transcript of the tape the neighborhood watchman called the young boy a ....coon--a racial slur and very derrogatory, so again, laws haven't changed much since the 60's

Then I said,

I feel I belong in a different group altogether.

To which you replied,

This is strictly your mental construct. It could very well be a rationalization for just perceiving yourself as different.

Well, yes, my feeling is “my mental construct”, if you want to put it that way. That’s kind of what feelings are. And do I need a “rationalization” for perceiving myself as different? I’m coming to perceive myself as fundamentally different from others. I feel different, I say so. Where’s the rationalization? what I meant was that even if you see /feel yourself as different, there is no need to put a name to it---e.g. TG you are justifying your difference by giving it a name. you are entitled to be different from the rest of us.

And then you conclude (with my replies in between),

The only person that needs to accept your gender feelings is you. If you wish to present to society as something other than a male, that will be at your own risk of acceptance, which will not likely be forthcoming. [Yes, I realize other people might not accept me. But if they did, they’d be better people, and my life would be happier. In that sense, they “need” to accept me.]

Isn't it better to "live in one's head peacefully" than try to live among to Neandethals in the open? [That’s your opinion. Others disagree. I’m not sure what I think about that at the moment.] I think what I mean here is that is it important that "people" know that you are different? You could be a spy, for example, and you wouldn't want people to know that you were. To do otherwise, would put yourself in jeopardy--which is actually closer to the truth than not when declaring that you are TG or CD or whatever.

I think focusing on what we do in life, is more important than how we seem to be in doing it. Focusing constantly on "specialness" distracts from living and doing. [Focusing on specialness will change my perception of myself. E.g., I used to think of myself as a guy with a disgusting and shameful perversion. I’ve changed my mind now. Which means I’ll probably change the way I live. I’m not distracting myself from living—I’m deciding how I want to live.] Here I was referring more to a physical life of doing as opposed to a psychological life. If you were a physicist, would it make any real difference if you are TG or not? does it change the way you interpret the laws of nature or do the math? Einstein was Jewish but it didn't change the way he thought about the laws of physics. If your psychological perception of yourself was "a pervert", that is changed by la new psychological perception that you are not, and that what you do is OK. You have accepted yourself to be different, and that only has to work in your head. I think you give far too much credit to the folks at large that they will understand this some day, recognize us as real people with a different outlook on life and take us into their hearts. 75% of the US population has a high school diploma and they are in a large part represented by people like the senator from Tennessee.

fine, you are different, the rest of us are different, and then what? [We get on with living in the way we see fit.]

Finally, you asked,

I'm also curious on how you mean intersexed. Is that a psychological state? or are we talking here of biological status of being a hermaphrodite?

I didn’t say anything about “intersexed” and have no thoughts to offer on that subject right now.Sorry, I got that from Noeleena's reply and mixed it in with your OP.

Best wishes, Annabelle

replies are in green hopefully.

Personally, if I had my druthers, I'd rather be just a regular guy, having a pint at Barry Fitzgerald's or sauntering down O'Connell towards the Liffey or maybe just having a look at the Book of Kells.

Slainte
Busker

[LeaP]

What I’m saying is this: I’m beginning to no longer see myself as a man, though obviously I know full well that I’m not female either. Am I a guy who has a pronounced “feminine side”, or a guy who longs to be a woman? I’m beginning to see myself as TG and nothing else. I’m very confused about a lot of things right now. One of my problems is trying to decide whether I’m male or female. If I accept that I’m just TG, for me it not only simplifies my thinking, but it also might be the correct way of thinking.



The problem is that the question itself is rooted in binary ideas. It may be that you are so committed to ideas of "proper" male and female identity that you are having trouble breaking free of them. There is no one way of being male or female. It's perfectly possible for a natal female to have exactly the characteristics that you have. The real question, then is can you see past those to your core identity?

That's not to say that non-binary identities aren't possible. I believe they are. But one should not start from the position that some things are male and others female.


Why can't we just be Crossdressers that says it all.

Because we are not all crossdressers. Those who are mostly identify male, which obviates the point.

Lea

[noeleena]

Hi,

As it is there is a 3rd gender & can be defined in being a none sexual Intersex can be both sex's yet none can not give birth & can not imprecnate , the sexual organs are non useable & surgery can not as far as i know do anything to repair that condition, in some case's,i for got about that one,

Interesex allso means hormones of both male & female, & depending on age every one unless different again has the same hormones more or less depending on how much & a few other factors, , meaning how much male or female are you,
Thats looking at it from what we call normal if it still works,

A worm is nether yet both hmmm i must ask a worm what are you,

...noeleena...

[Foxglove]

The problem is that the question itself is rooted in binary ideas. It may be that you are so committed to ideas of "proper" male and female identity that you are having trouble breaking free of them. There is no one way of being male or female. It's perfectly possible for a natal female to have exactly the characteristics that you have.

Hi, Lea! The point is well made here, and I would agree with most of it. But no, I don't think I'm committed to ideas of "proper" male and female identity. I recognize that there are great differences between individuals.


That's not to say that non-binary identities aren't possible. I believe they are. But one should not start from the position that some things are male and others female.

Yes, but I don't think we're talking about "things" that are male and female. We're talking about people who are male and female. And I think just about everyone starts from that position. Some of the people on this thread have emphasized that point. That is, people, whatever their individual differences, are recognized as male or female. True, we can't necessarily say that one trait is masculine and another feminine, but people themselves are recognized as male and female.

So the question I'm raising (and it may be for myself alone, and not for anyone else) is this: am I a variant of a male or a variant of a female (more doubtful), or if I am something of a mix of the two, do I become something fundamentally different? Something on the order of Sodium + Chlorine = Salt, the last being fundamentally different from the first two.

If I raise this question, I think in a way a lot of cisgender people feel it as well within them. So often they get so upset, sometimes even reacting violently against us. I think it's because in a way we challenge their view of the world. It would be as if you held out a coin and let go of it and watched it floating upwards. That sort of thing isn't supposed to happen. That's not the way the world works. I believe that we challenge something very deep-seated and fundamental in people--their view of the sexes. The male-female dichotomy may be illusory to a certain extent, but people perceive it as very sharp. So when TG's challenge this perception, it is deeply upsetting to them. If I'm beginning to feel a fundamental difference between me and the rest, perhaps I'm not alone.

People on this thread have expressed very different ideas about the way they perceive themselves. That's to be expected. I'm basically speaking for myself here, and it's up to others to decide whether they feel the same thing I do. If they say they don't, that's hardly surprising.


The real question, then is can you see past those to your core identity?

Yes, it is the real question, isn't it? My views on a lot of things have evolved throughout my life. My view of myself is now evolving, and I suspect it will continue to do so--unless I give up my girly stuff again and stop thinking about all these things.

Best wishes, Annabelle




Lea[/QUOTE]

[LeaP]

It may be useful to bring up the concept of unconscious sex vs gender. The former refers to whether you feel that you should be in a male or female body. A (MtF) transsexual would tend to say a female body, often even early on in the process of self-realization, regardless of ambiguous or confused feelings over womanhood and so-called female identity.

In fact, I would say that it's the tension between unconscious sex and gender (which is, after all, at least partly a social construction) that produces uncertainty. The interesting thing is that, in the case of a transsexual, unconscious sex is a stronger driver than gender.

Multiple factors compete within trans people in order to pin down identity. I suppose it possible to arrive at a position of comfortable self-integration anywhere in the spectrum, but it seems to be more common for people outside the binary to live with some level of dissatisfaction. Maybe it's because they still wish to be cissexual, or perhaps having just a few intrinsic inclinations out of sync with an otherwise cissexual psyche is fundamentally unsettling.

In any event, what I'm suggesting is that determining gender isn't an either-or proposition. Rather, it's a matter of relative priorities and even choice in some respects. We tend to overload "gender" as if it were an all-encompassing concept. It is not.

Lea