Risking annoyance

[Elizabeth Ann]

You all have been very patient with me, and I truly do appreciate that. I am the crossdressing parent of a recently announced transexual son. I have been trying to be supportive (she is 22, what choice do I have), but my own worries and doubts keep getting in the way.

Can I beg your indulgence one more time? Help me understand if this material is within the TS experience, when I keep feeling like I am letting my child make a mistake.

In a recent conversation I was relating to her some of the things I have learned from this forum. It turns out that she has also been participating in a forum on Reddit. This is a very general forum with a transgender section. I think it is mainly oriented toward younger persons. (One current thread is titled "How old is too old for HRT?" and was started by a 22 year old!) So I went to Reddit to read her writings. Aside from disturbingly frequent entries about marijuana, her first transgender post was 5 months ago. Could you please take a look at it:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/ln9xr/rambling_call_for_help/

It just does not seem to fit the experiences or burning desires I read about here. I should note for you that although she says "I'm not trans." here, she says that she came to that realization a month or so later.

I have more to say, but I should just let you read her own words. And as always, if I have my head up my a**, just tell me. This is too important to me to worry about a few bruises.

Liz

[Kristy_K]

It sounds to me Elizabeth that she is just as confuse as the rest of us are about who or what we are. I would not have even consider me being TS 8 months ago. Then I accepted it and ran with it. As you have seen on this form that we are all different. Plus something to consider is her age compare to ours. With a age difference comes the way we think about things and how they will affect us. What things means to us doesn't always mean the same to younger people.

Enjoy your new daughter and just try to be a part of her new life.

Kristy

[kimdl93]

Here's my 2 cents worth. One may look to forums such as these to exchange ideas and options, engage in discussion with others who have common expereinces or issues. But, that's all. Although I felt a bit awkward invading your child's privacy by reading this post, I would suggest that there is a high degree of internal inconsistency in what she's saying. These internal consistencies need to be resolved by working with a qualified gender therapist.

[Bree-asaurus]

I said I'm not trans at one point too.

Through the process of breaking out of years of suppression, and being exposed to who you really are is a very confusing and scary process.

You can't take something she said when she was scared and confused and assume she meant, or even knew what she was talking about.

Your head might be a little up there, but that's because you really have no idea what she is going through. You can't understand it because you haven't lived with it. This kind of stuff happens all the time from family or friends that don't understand and are scared of someone saying they're transsexual. They look to their past and try to find every clue that would prove they're not trans.

Instead of playing history detective, try listening to what she has to say now.

And also, she's 22 years old. Show a little respect... if you want to know what's going on with her, talk to her. Don't go digging through her life behind her back.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Here's my 2 cents worth. One may look to forums such as these to exchange ideas and options, engage in discussion with others who have common expereinces or issues. But, that's all. Although I felt a bit awkward invading your child's privacy by reading this post, I would suggest that there is a high degree of internal inconsistency in what she's saying. These internal consistencies need to be resolved by working with a qualified gender therapist.

I should have mentioned that she is okay with others reading her material on a public forum (her mother wishes she wasn't). She has had some contact with therapists, but is not currently seeing one because, she states, she knows what she wants.

Liz

[Bree-asaurus]

I should have mentioned that she is okay with others reading her material on a public forum (her mother wishes she wasn't). She has had some contact with therapists, but is not currently seeing one because, she states, she knows what she wants.

Liz

Okay, well ignore my comment on the respect part I guess lol! Most people would be bothered by that but I guess you're in the clear :P

Well if she can talk to her therapists and get sign-off on her being trans, that would help. Because if she is who she thinks she is, a decent, educated therapist should see this and then be able to write letters of recommendation for her. If she is still confused, a decent, educated therapist should see this as well, and maybe help her realize this.

But the key is... the therapist needs to have some good experience with transgender individuals, gender identity and gender dysphoria.

[LeaP]

Help me understand if this material is within the TS experience, when I keep feeling like I am letting my child make a mistake.


To be perfectly honest, I don't see the same significance in the post that you evidently do. It's brief and rather introductory - thematic but neither detailed nor emotional. It's just the sort of thing you might say to someone before you are ready to bare your soul.

The phrase I keep coming back to is "letting my child make a mistake". I know this is hard stuff to see happen, Liz, but 22 isn't a child anymore and you aren't in control. The damage that could ensue from you trying to assert control or even heavy influence could linger for years and extend beyond your relationship with Davin.

Lea

[Elizabeth Ann]

I said I'm not trans at one point too.

Through the process of breaking out of years of suppression, and being exposed to who you really are is a very confusing and scary process.

You can't take something she said when she was scared and confused and assume she meant, or even knew what she was talking about.

Your head might be a little up there, but that's because you really have no idea what she is going through. You can't understand it because you haven't lived with it. This kind of stuff happens all the time from family or friends that don't understand and are scared of someone saying they're transsexual. They look to their past and try to find every clue that would prove they're not trans.

Instead of playing history detective, try listening to what she has to say now.

And also, she's 22 years old. Show a little respect... if you want to know what's going on with her, talk to her. Don't go digging through her life behind her back.

Bree,

Thanks. This is really not behind her back, but I get your point. I have always felt she has a good head on her shoulders, and I need to keep reminding myself of that. I do know that my vantage point is different, and I can't know exactly what is going on inside her head.

I guess her mother and I are just a little in a panic because she has already found an endocrinologist in Baltimore who has written prescriptions for her to start HRT.

[Bree-asaurus]

The phrase I keep coming back to is "letting my child make a mistake". I know this is hard stuff to see happen, Liz, but 22 isn't a child anymore and you aren't in control. The damage that could ensue from you trying to assert control or even heavy influence could linger for years and extend beyond your relationship with Davin.

BINGO

Whatever she does is not your decision to make. I'm not saying you shouldn't control her... you CAN'T control her. She is her own person and is going to do what she needs to do.

If she is transsexual, then the mistake would be to not transition.

I could have made a mistake a couple years ago and splattered my brains on the highway in an attempt to end the suffering. I DIDN'T make that mistake... I made the right choice and I'm happier now than ever... even with the struggles of being transsexual.


I guess her mother and I are just a little in a panic because she has already found an endocrinologist in Baltimore who has written prescriptions for her to start HRT.

Exactly... YOU are afraid. And YOU need to learn how to deal with it.

If she was prescribed hormones, chances are the doc thought she needed them. And if she starts HRT and it isn't what she needs, she will know it. Plenty of non-transsexuals have tried HRT and didn't like how it made them feel... and they stopped with no harm done, but a little more insight into who they really are.

Starting down this path isn't the end. She can always change her mind and be okay. What you're worried about is that she may indeed be transsexual and you are afraid for her. But you can't do anything about that.

[Frances]

I once told a panel of 15 psychologists that I was not trans and did not want to become a woman. It's her journey. Therapy is all about peeling off the layers and getting to the truth. We lie to ourselves a lot. That said, I don't like the "letting my child make a mistake" talk. Her identity cannot be debated or argued. You can, however, encourage her to go through the therapeutic process to get to the truth, whatever it is. If you don't like the idea of having your child transition, remember that most trans people do not want to transition either. Is just has to be done.

[Sally24]

Liz,
Even though she says at the outset that she's not trans., the rest of the intro seems to say just the opposite. I think what she has discovered about herself is what many of us have come to after 20 or 30 more years of living. She doesn't have the stereotypical "woman in a man's body" mindset but many of us don't. I don't personally hate my male body but if I could change it alot more feminine I probably would. And among your concerns, HRT doesn't make irreversable changes for awhile. I would have to say, take deep breaths and try to be as supportive as possible. She may or may not find HRT helpful. Give her time to find what makes her feel joyful.

[KellyJameson]

Hi Liz

Your words touched me and the love for your child is evident.

The words written by your child could have been my own. When I read them I could see my own hand writing them. This is what I call the experience of a body holding feminine energies. I personally experience it as sensitivity, hyper-empathy ( the female version of autism) and I also test out on the Myers-Briggsas INFJ. This can be a wonderful way to live but it has many dangers because you stand contrary to the way the majority of people experience the world.

The greatest problem for me has been in the area of sexual relations because it has caused great conflict within my own mind and hurt others emotionally because I could not form attachments to them as well as slowing my own emotional growth that would have come from loving relations with others.

Moving slowly but guilt free in the discovery of ones sexual identity is the greatest challenge in my opinion. This energy makes it feel natural to physically open yourself as a woman does to others but it runs contrary to the male form. The male penetrates the female and it becomes very confusing to try and do both acts simultanously.

The guestion I would ask of your child is if he wants to keep the ability to penetrate another with his penis. The answer will indicate what energy is dominant. To enter another, to be entered or to be able to do both are all symbolic acts of our deeper energies and indicate our true psychological selves.

If my words have any value or I can be of help in anyway please do not hesitate to P.M me.

The love for a child is the gift we give to the world so please do not think you have your head up your a... and you certainly are not an annoyance. Kelly

P.S.
Elaine Arons book on highly sensitive people has helped me learn to manage my own extreme sensitivity and helped make me feel like less of a freak.

[Elizabeth Ann]

To be perfectly honest, I don't see the same significance in the post that you evidently do. It's brief and rather introductory - thematic but neither detailed nor emotional. It's just the sort of thing you might say to someone before you are ready to bare your soul.

The phrase I keep coming back to is "letting my child make a mistake". I know this is hard stuff to see happen, Liz, but 22 isn't a child anymore and you aren't in control. The damage that could ensue from you trying to assert control or even heavy influence could linger for years and extend beyond your relationship with Davin.

Lea

Lea, and others,

Thanks for both points. Perhaps I am reading too much into it. She has always been a bit fearless in what she writes.

My own therapist has also warned that this is not my decision to make. It does hurt that some barriers between us seem to have already gone up, and I have to work on a rapprochement. It is just that it is like our child saying, "watch me leap the Grand Canyon on this motorcycle." She may be able to do it, but it is hard to smile and say good luck.

Liz

[Bree-asaurus]

It is just that it is like our child saying, "watch me leap the Grand Canyon on this motorcycle." She may be able to do it, but it is hard to smile and say good luck.

It's been done before... you just have to be a daredevil. And like I said before, this isn't something any of us would wish on anyone... but if she is transsexual, transitioning is the SAFER alternative.

[arbon]

I should have mentioned that she is okay with others reading her material on a public forum

Liz

Does she know you posted a link to her posts for discussion here?

[Elizabeth Ann]

Does she know you posted a link to her posts for discussion here?

She knows that I have discussed her extensively on this forum, and I have related to her some of the responses to her earlier writings without any objection from her. When she told me about Reddit, I don't think I specifically asked about posting a link. It is a publicly available, non protected forum for all to read, and I know that she believes, as I do, in the widest possible freedom of both speech and information. But I will ask her specifically about a link. Is a link materially different from relating her words?

Liz

[AllieSF]

I think that you should be there for her and quit questioning her decisions. If she is as level headed as you say, she will do fine. Since the beginning of your threads about your new daughter, I get the impression that with all good parental intent, that you are trying to control and influence her too much. Let her live her life, love her, accept her as she is, support her where you can financially, and try to not interfere with her life decisions unless she comes to you for input. Good luck.

[arbon]

She knows that I have discussed her extensively on this forum, and I have related to her some of the responses to her earlier writings without any objection from her. When she told me about Reddit, I don't think I specifically asked about posting a link. It is a publicly available, non protected forum for all to read, and I know that she believes, as I do, in the widest possible freedom of both speech and information. But I will ask her specifically about a link. Is a link materially different from relating her words?

Liz


I was just wondering. She may eventually come here and read all this, maybe she already has. I don't think I would be ok with it if my parent was doing what you are doing here. But I've never trusted them much anyway and keep them at arms length.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you are NOT risking annoyance!! :hugs:

There are a high proportion of later in life transitioners here. People that invested heavily in male lives are at alot more risk of crippling GID, and are much more likely to express their situation in dire terms...for us, it is dire...40 / 50 yrs...wonderful family...down the tubes!! that's what it feels like, and it informs all of us here...younger folks have time and their arcs are really different than people like me...

None of us can say really anything "diagnosis" wise, especially from a note
..but i will say this...that post is not inconsistent with how transsexuals evolve in their thinking...i told everyone i was cd...people would ask me about trannsexuals and i would gasp.."OMG NO!!!"
and i believed it at the time..

being attracted to, and feelings attractive as a woman with a penis is not uncommon, and whether you call it transsexuality or not...outside of grs, the steps to get to your perfect self are the same as for a ts girl...

I think your crossdressing has hurt your ability to accept her..you are well served to stop applying what you know about the tg world to the ts world...they are not comparable...

i can tell you are loving and good,
trust your child..if you don't trust, then you will be ignored...especially if your child is ts.

[Aprilrain]

I totally relate to the attraction to pre op TSes (or in porn speak ********). I was compelled to look! did I want them or did I want to be one of them??????
Actually the answer is neither but like Kaitlyn alluded to there are a multitude of ways one comes to an understanding of ones self.
At the time it was informative for me, I definitely had an attraction to those girls. I think it was mostly their penises I was attracted to sexually AND the idea that I could some how some way be a woman, physically speaking that is (I didn't believe for a second that there was anyway I could ever pull it off!). They were sort of a physical manifestation of gender and sexuality, both of which I had denied for so long.

Anyway what are you so afraid of? Hormones are not the end of the world, I wish they did all that that fast!
I think it is fine to encourage her to seek therapy but other than that leave it alone.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

In fact, if you could just support him or her, no matter what, it would be in your best interest.
you'd likely get a better outcome..even a great outcome.... maybe with your support she will be more confident in her thinking...that is a big deal with ts people....we are down on ourselves for a long time...its hard to believe in yourself...
she needs someone that has her back.
You could be saving her from making a mistake just by listening

I get it..i am a parent...i feel very protective of my kids.
but
if you stand in the way, or judge her/him then you will likely regret it and you lose whatever control you now have over the outcome..

[Melody Moore]

Personally I think you are going way too far because this is not your problem and nor is any decision
yours to make! From the fact you have trolled up her posts posts from another forum & posted it on
this forum. I personally think you are becoming a very meddling & interfering parent, rather than a loving
& supportive parent. Your child is an adult, but like many of us they are confused and if you are adding
more stress to her issues & stalking her, then I have to think that is very poor parenting on your part.

Leave your daughter to be if that is who she is - accept it and worry about your own life. If you really
love your child then love her for the person SHE is, not as the person who you think SHE should be!

EDIT: I posted this after I read the first post after seeing the link to her other posts posted here.
Irrespective of the fact she is OK with others reading her posts, she would be having a much harder
time with this because of your refusal to accept it and that you are going to such great lengths. So I
stand by my words that you are coming across as a very meddling & interfering parent, rather than
a loving & supportive parent. This will be the catalyst of a major rift between you both if it continues.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Liz,

I know you and your wife love your child very very much but this is her life.
She's 22 years old. You and your wife have no choice but to stand back and let her lead her life.
Are you going to close the door on her like your wife already has or are you going to support her?

Very soon she will grow so tired and angry of your concerns that she will stop communicating with you like she stopped communicating with her mother.
Do you want this Liz?????

Whether you do or don't does not matter because she will be gone and you'll be regretful.

Stop it....Stop it now Liz!!


Julia

[ReineD]

I have a 22 year old son. And 26 & 18 yr olds. I understand.

I also know that as independent as your son/daughter is, or at least as my boys are (staunchly independent just like their parents), when they hurt they want to know they are OK. Still. Even though they pretend they don't, they do.

So you're OK in my book. Also, you are not ramming yourself and your views onto her. You are respectful of her freedom of choice. She knows this. It appears as if she has a much closer relationship with you than I've read from other members here whose parents were critical or gave up on them.

When I was 20 I knew that I wanted to spend my weekends with the man who subsequently became my husband. This was many years ago and my father at the time staunchly objected to sex outside of marriage. He told me that unless I was prepared to sleep at home, I'd have to leave. I knew everything when I was 20 especially with regards to my own life since my father had such antiquated ideas, and so I left. Looking back now I see that I should have followed his advice. :p

That said, I like the advice your child received on reddit to get therapy and I hope she takes it to heart. And I hope she finds a therapist who believes that gender is not binary. This is a concept that few people understand since we are all surrounded by either men or women. But I suspect there are far more people in this community who would feel freer if they embraced the concept, which it appears your son/daughter did when writing that post.

I don't know the difference between feeling fully and truly female such as Bree, Melissa, Kaitlyn, Julia and others here (don't want to leave anyone out) who know without a doubt they are female, and feeling this overwhelming excitement at the prospect of experiencing femininity that others describe, even when they are not sure. From my POV as a GG, being feminine is a good thing but it is not as enthralling as young trans people often describe it and I often wonder how much this high level of emotion is affected by the release of dopamine, endorphins, oxytocin, and vasopressin. If the desire were fueled by this chemical release then it seems as if a person's true nature might not be female, but then having released these chems over a period of time might well cause a bond to be formed with the target gender so that it really doesn't matter what came first, the chicken or the egg. I hope that gender therapists have this figured out.

Ultimately, I agree with others here. If your child is making a mistake, it is hers to make and also for her to experience the joy if she isn't. All you can do is be there for her should she ever need you.

Has she considered her career options with transition? My middle son has just received an undergrad degree and he at this point still has idealistic views on fending for himself in the real world. I did too, before I was out there. My son is at the tail end of receiving support from his parents. He is currently wavering between finding a job that will give him the salary he feels he deserves, or going on to grad school.

[Stephenie S]

Liz,

Your daughter does not need your control. Your daughter needs your love.

Stephie

[Elizabeth Ann]

Okay, reality is beginning to sink in. I may be a bit hard of hearing, but if I am told enough times, I actually begin to hear it. Next talk will include an apology from me. Thanks for all your messages, even the not so nice ones.


In fact, if you could just support him or her, no matter what, it would be in your best interest.
you'd likely get a better outcome..even a great outcome.... maybe with your support she will be more confident in her thinking...


[slapping forehead] Damn, why didn't this occur to me? We have had some great, free ranging discussions in the past. I love how her brain works, and she knows it. It is the reason I have been so mystified at her unwillingness to admit any doubts or issues, to us or a therapist. That is just not the person I know.

But she can't let her guard down, can't trust us to work through it with her. We have poisoned the environment, turning it into a negotiation rather than a discussion. Thank you for the epiphany.

Liz

[Elizabeth Ann]

Ultimately, I agree with others here. If your child is making a mistake, it is hers to make and also for her to experience the joy if she isn't. All you can do is be there for her should she ever need you.

Has she considered her career options with transition? My middle son has just received an undergrad degree and he at this point still has idealistic views on fending for himself in the real world. I did too, before I was out there. My son is at the tail end of receiving support from his parents. He is currently wavering between finding a job that will give him the salary he feels he deserves, or going on to grad school, which is what I did.

She is very bright, and wandered into a somewhat arcane niche in her Environmental Technology and Policy major. I have talked with her about this, and most of the employment in this field is in the public sector, which I think is good for her. For a while, she thought about going to law school (policy stuff), but now thinks she would like to go to grad school (tech stuff).

Even before all the transgender stuff started, she knew that a bachelor's degree was about as far as we could take her. She is grateful for that, knowing that I came from a very blue collar, four child household where I had to pay my own way from the beginning. I am pretty sure that she is good enough to get a TA or RA position that could get her through grad school, which is the way I did it.

Liz

[Bree-asaurus]

She is very bright, and wandered into a somewhat arcane niche in her Environmental Technology and Policy major. I have talked with her about this, and most of the employment in this field is in the public sector, which I think is good for her. For a while, she thought about going to law school (policy stuff), but now thinks she would like to go to grad school (tech stuff).

Even before all the transgender stuff started, she knew that a bachelor's degree was about as far as we could take her. She is grateful for that, knowing that I came from a very blue collar, four child household where I had to pay my own way from the beginning. I am pretty sure that she is good enough to get a TA or RA position that could get her through grad school.

Liz

Hey, you're doing more than a lot of parents. Mine couldn't pay for college... I have insane student loans over my head right now. Be proud you have done as much as you have!

EDIT: Well... my dad probably could have... but he's too frugal...

[noeleena]

Hi ,

Jos & i have 3 grown up adults 33 , 35 , 36 ,they have thier own kids up to age 15 ,

& yes we had to learn well more myself . keep my mouth shut, dont tell them what to do dont force them, say yes & agree no matter what ,
Jos & i have seen more issues probs & been through the worry of cant you see what your doing to your self,

Its a cant let go , we were there from the begining to pick up look after help kiss it better & all those things we needed to do for them.

We cant do that we ...had .... to step back stay on the side lines & still give .

we are not going to help if we dont step back all we will do is .....drive ..... them away.

Hey you know what ...its bloody hard when you see your kids fall & hurt them selfs & its not just once its many times ,

We are there to pick them up & just be there for them. yet say nothing ..

We'v been through it for over 9 years with our daughter & its just so hard, & its we are banging our heads against the brick wall.

Dont go snopping around after your child youll drive her away reguardless of what she's going through be there to give her a hug & surport .& let her do the talking

...noeleena...

[DebbieL]

Make sure that she follows the transition protocol and doesn't try to take shortcuts. This would include finding a therapist, living full time as a woman for at least one year, and THEN deciding whether to have the various surgical procedures.

It's possible that your child has been struggling with this issue for 15 years or more, and has tried to "fit in" as much as possible, and to accept their situation, and at the same time, has struggled with the terrifying thought of having to live the rest of their lives in the male body. The good news is that he hasn't killed himself, and although he turned to drugs, he isn't to the point where he is trying to kill himself with overdoses.

Encourage him to get the therapist, and start dressing full time. If she wants you to help her shop for clothes, enjoy the experience. Let her make the mistakes and discover what works for her as a girl. She will want to dress sexy and too cute, but that will lead to closer scrutiny. Eventually, she will want to dress a bit more conservatively so that she doesn't always have to worry about getting clocked.

If she is transgendered, she will find herself feeling more freedom, more alive, more satisfied with her life, and will want to proceed with the other things she need to do to transition. If she is not, she will eventually get tired of all the hassles of having to do the make-up, diet, exercise, hair management, and so on, and will opt to go back to living as a boy/man most of the time.

She can't really make an informed decision until she has had the opportunity to live as a woman for at least a year. You might even want to take all his boy clothes and give them away, putting anything sentimental into storage. In a sense, it "burns the bridge", and encourages them to move forward boldly and powerfully, rather than the shuffle back and forth.

Encourage her to read magazines to learn make-up, hair, and fashion techniques.

If she is transsexual, and she sees how much you love her as your daughter, she will love you more than ever.

If he is just a cross-dresser, he will love you for giving him the freedom to discover that for himself.

[morgan51]

Just a note to congratulate you for deciding to be a supportive parent and let her discover for herself. I'm a parent as well and to not control and sit back and support is the most difficult thing in the world we want to save them and can only watch. My parents are of the controling/judgmental type so I know how thast hurts.

[Stephenie S]

Yay Liz, yay Liz. yay Liz!

Stephie

[*Vanessa*]

Elizabeth there are some great honest, heartfelt comments here already. Totally agree with the living ones life sentiment and support dealie. We are human and being human we need to be organic. That deep emotion and sense of being is why we are talking here today and I'm pretty sure all would agree.

I think a lot of girls here have played the game "what term feels right" at lest once or twice in our younger lives. I wonder if there is more behind your thoughts then asking about hers? I'm asking if this might be more about you then her or even about how you should support her life choices. Most here have read her post, but does she know you are TG? Maybe this is the base of your issue? I'm just asking questions 'tis all.

[danielleb]

Opponent or Allie?

It's that simple. Speaking from a TS standpoint; you either fit into one or the other, or you don't exist. There is no grey area. Make a slight notion twoards oppostition and that's it, you're an opponent that has to be removed from her life. It's a long road to fight back from at such a highly emoitionally charged time.

Right now, for her, being TS is all that matters and every second counts and nothing can happen fast enough. Offer guidance, express your concerns, but don't ever set in place ultimatums, dates, or hurdles for her. If you want her to see a therapist regularly all you can do is offer (and it has to be a neutral person, you need as many neutral observers as possible, certainly not your therapist!), let her know that it's not for her, it's not a requirement, it's simply to appease your concerns, and make sure it's a semi informal arrangement like once a month or so. Know the doctors she's seeing (and you have to applaud her decision on some level to have gone to a therapist/doctor already and not just self medicated). Beyond that you really do have to leave it in her hands and the hands of the professionals she's surrounded by.

I can't imagine the difficulty for your family all around right now. If you band together no matter what happens you will all come out better people in the end for it. I wish you the best of luck!:)

[Sheren Kelly]

Liz,
As long as she is seeing a therapist to guide her decisions, and she doesn't take shortcuts, she will likely find the right course. If your suspicions are realized and in RLT, she decides that she isn't destined to transition, then she can change course. I have known someone who detransitioned and seems to have resumed their former lives well. Though HRT changes the body, SRS is really the point of no return.

[Elizabeth Ann]

I wonder if there is more behind your thoughts then asking about hers? I'm asking if this might be more about you then her or even about how you should support her life choices. Most here have read her post, but does she know you are TG? Maybe this is the base of your issue? I'm just asking questions 'tis all.

She does know that I am a crossdresser. I don't want to touch the "definition of a TG" issue with a 10 foot pole.

I am not sure if that is all you are asking. This whole experience has led me to think a lot about gender, and how abstract the concept seems to have become. I even started a thread on the crossdressing section called "What is Gender?" in which I confess to not being sure anymore. It is no longer connected to the physical body, but it can't be just socialization, which, after all, can be overcome. It's "between your ears" but not just "all in your head"!

Liz

[ReineD]

I even started a thread on the crossdressing section called "What is Gender?" in which I confess to not being sure anymore.

"Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch)." - WPATH

You know, there is an unprecedented number of people seeking transition in the last few years (decade(s)?). And much of this is finding it's way into the news. We even have a TS holding office in the current administration! There are blogs now from parents advocating for acceptance for their transsexual children. One of the most celebrated models of our time is a man who looks like a woman and who is ambiguous about his (her?) gender.

Chemicals have found their way into our ecosystems messing with biological gender among fish. How much of this has affected humans, and to what degree? And what about meds given to pregnant mothers during the 1950s?

We've come a long way from early last century, when Hirschfeld first coined the term "transvestite". More and more people are seeking gender counseling today, and I dare say that transgender issues have found their way into the curriculum of all would-be therapists.

Along with all these changes, it is inevitable there should be a great deal of gender deconstruction going on, especially among our young, who also witness an equally unprecedented, fundamental change in gender roles among their parents which has trickled down to even greater degrees among their peers.

[Bree-asaurus]

Make sure that she follows the transition protocol and doesn't try to take shortcuts. This would include finding a therapist, living full time as a woman for at least one year, and THEN deciding whether to have the various surgical procedures.

[...]

She can't really make an informed decision until she has had the opportunity to live as a woman for at least a year. You might even want to take all his boy clothes and give them away, putting anything sentimental into storage. In a sense, it "burns the bridge", and encourages them to move forward boldly and powerfully, rather than the shuffle back and forth.

[...]

This sounds like a bit much. She is a 22 year old adult that doesn't live with her parents and can't be controlled by them. Her parents can ENCOURAGE her to follow protocol, but they can't MAKE SURE she does.

She's stated that so far she doesn't want SRS... and she can't even get surgery without following protocols that would last at least a year...

Not only are her parents incapable of taking her boy cloths away, that's a ridiculous idea even if they could.

She needs to figure this out on her own, with the SUPPORT of her friends and family, not the CONTROL of her friends and family.

[Frances]

I did not get rid of my boy clothes until SRS. Not that I wanted a safety net, but they did not matter that much to me, symbolically or otherwise.

Also, a trans person, in my opinion, should be encouraged to move forward or to slow down. It is such actions that make trans people "hybernate" and put transition on hold until suicide becomes the only way out. There are protocols for gender reassignment and experts in the matter who do not care whether your child transitions or not, but want to maximise chances of success and minimize possibilities of regret.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The idea that mom or dad can somehow "help" by setting goals, expectations, boundries, rules, guidelines is a big problem with regard to transsexuals. The reason is that unless mom or dad has extensive experience they are taking a big risk..
being transsexual is a very unique experience that does not resonate with the 99.999%....there is a built in disbelief that your boy thinks "he" is a girl...even if you are a crossdresser!!! that's actually pretty fascinating if you think of it..

as parents, we have extreme influence...it can be positive or negative....one wrong comment can sit with your child literally FOREVER..i know this happened to me...and my dad doesnt recall every saying it, and he has apologized a million times, but the word and growl are inside of me ....

Plus every one of us, me included, has inherent bias..and if you have limited knowledge of the options and concepts, its a bad recipe....its called knowing just enough to be dangerous..heh

so i hope elizabeth you stick with your idea of a couple days ago...which is to listen listen listen...and let your child know you are there and supportive and only want to help...admit you are no expert...if any guidance can help, its finding the right experts and guidance ...

[Andie Elisabeth]

Hi,
as a still 22 years old person who has yet to come out to parents, now would be a really awful time, as whatever-non-guy-label-you-want-to-insert I'd like to say my :2c:.


She needs to figure this out on her own, with the SUPPORT of her friends and family, not the CONTROL of her friends and family.


The idea that mom or dad can somehow "help" by setting goals, expectations, boundries, rules, guidelines is a big problem with regard to transsexuals. The reason is that unless mom or dad has extensive experience they are taking a big risk..
being transsexual is a very unique experience that does not resonate with the 99.999%....there is a built in disbelief that your boy thinks "he" is a girl...even if you are a crossdresser!!! that's actually pretty fascinating if you think of it..

as parents, we have extreme influence...it can be positive or negative....one wrong comment can sit with your child literally FOREVER..i know this happened to me...

Both my mom and I are different kinds of control freaks. I know that I can't control her and I don't even try but she forgets it from time to time. And when I need to feel support that I am not alone I just don't want to hear solutions which is something that I am forced to hear a lot. So in the end I am stuck with my problems alone :sad:

When it comes to expectations for your child, whatever she/he identifies, don't make them! It limits us, tears apart, at least it tears me because I am often people-pleaser.

If I didn't felt as hamster in wheel at college in Prague like hamster in a spinning wheel I would be probably not going home every week and not talking to my mom because of some comments that she makes. But I had find some way to filter her comments before they hit my memory circuits in brain and they still upset me.

I don't write about dad simply because I skype with him on weekends when he's not in work.

[Elizabeth Ann]

"Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch)." - WPATH

You know, there is an unprecedented number of people seeking transition in the last few years (decade(s)?). And much of this is finding it's way into the news. We even have a TS holding office in the current administration! There are blogs now from parents advocating for acceptance for their transsexual children. One of the most celebrated models of our time is a man who looks like a woman and who is ambiguous about his (her?) gender.

Chemicals have found their way into our ecosystems messing with biological gender among fish. How much of this has affected humans, and to what degree? And what about meds given to pregnant mothers during the 1950s?

We've come a long way from early last century, when Hirschfeld first coined the term "transvestite". More and more people are seeking gender counseling today, and I dare say that transgender issues have found their way into the curriculum of all would-be therapists.

Along with all these changes, it is inevitable there should be a great deal of gender deconstruction going on, especially among our young, who also witness an equally unprecedented, fundamental change in gender roles among their parents which has trickled down to even greater degrees among their peers.

Hi Reine,

Gender deconstruction! I love it. We are drifting off topic here, but it is an issue that has occupied my thoughts lately.

Intrinsic (of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent) is a difficult word for me. A person's intrinsic sense of gender seems more like a description, and a tautological one at that, than it does a definition. You can't discern gender by examining the body, nor can you discern it by the person's behavior. Other than sex, effeminate men can do anything a woman can, and we crossdressers know that wearing a dress does not determine gender. Nevertheless, it is supposed to be part of our essential nature. It reminds me of another famous tautology, the biblical definition of faith as "the evidence of things not seen."

Over the years, I seem to have lost my appetite for such firm rocks upon which to stand. "Nothing endures but change" said the Greek philosopher Heraclitus, and I am fearful that he is correct and I live in a world with few, if any, fixed points. Let me explain.

I have a PhD in economics, and any good economist will tell you that the entire structure of the discipline is built on just one assumption: that persons are able to rank their preferences. Sounds intuitive. You prefer A to B, and B to C. But what happens if C is heavily promoted and advertised and you state that you used to prefer A but now you prefer C? Values, productions, even levels of happiness, reality actually, can be changed by changing minds.

Most of us think the use of psychotropic drugs for schizophrenia or bipolar disorders is a good thing, but not when the old Soviet Union used it to control dissidents. Either way, we are changing our "intrinsic" inner self. When is it good or bad? My own sense of ethics has become so relativistic that I have generally abandoned moral judgments (with the possible exception of Dick Cheney, but now he has a heart). Problems with intrinsic are legion. I have an acquaintance who transitioned and tells me that, as a man, she preferred women. But after HRT, she now prefers men. There is a famous exchange with an art critic. "I know what I like," says the patron. "No, you like what you know." says the critic.

So, I am still not sure about gender. A "person's intrinsic sense of" gender, values, sexual orientation, moral code, psychological profile, aesthetics, etc., what's that? I am not sure what is left to be "intrinsic." For me, possibly a blind faith that searching for the truth is the only course of action left.

But for those of you writing in this thread this morning, not to worry. Certainty is a precious commodity, and I now realize I have no right to take it away from my child.

Liz

[Inna]

Liz, I am sooo taken by you and your immense love for your daughter, that reading through your statements made me tear up. I so wish my father had gone through such a soul searching as you did, and all that for her! You are a magnificent parent I didn't have, and I want you to know that you have moved me beyond simple emotion. I know that your daughter is in the most loving and beautiful hands she can possibly wish for and you had proven to me that nothing, nothing is for ever lost, and people only if willing can see the light of truth and love with the force so immense, nothing will stand to destroy it.

All my love and tears, happy tears, to you both, Inna

[Elizabeth Ann]

Oh Inna,

You make me blush! It's a good thing you are so far away and cannot see my stumbling and hesitant style of parenting, as well as my complete lack of fashion sense (my wife says my underwear looks "like something an 8th grader would wear").

Liz

[Aprilrain]

I have an acquaintance who transitioned and tells me that, as a man, she preferred women. But after HRT, she now prefers men.

I was the same........kinda. Sexually speaking I'm a bisexual WOMAN, so before my life was that of a woman's there was no way I was having sex with a man as a man. Having sex with a woman as a man wasn't nearly as bad for whatever reason (social acceptance, appearances?) but still presented many problems. Testosterone overload helped get over the mentally tricky parts. Now I could comfortably have sex with a man or a woman as me, a woman. As far as "preferences" go I prefer a man not because the sex is better with a man or worse with a woman but I think I just get along better in a relationship with a man. One woman in a relationship is usually quite enough! ; )

[Frances]

I was the same........kinda. Sexually speaking I'm a bisexual WOMAN, so before my life was that of a woman's there was no way I was having sex with a man as a man. Having sex with a woman as a man wasn't nearly as bad for whatever reason (social acceptance, appearances?) but still presented many problems. Testosterone overload helped get over the mentally tricky parts. Now I could comfortably have sex with a man or a woman as me, a woman. As far as "preferences" go I prefer a man not because the sex is better with a man or worse with a woman but I think I just get along better in a relationship with a man. One woman in a relationship is usually quite enough! ; )

Same with me. You should not read too much into this Elizabeth. Preferences and a core sense of self are not the same thing. No marketing campain could ever change how one feels about oneself. Could you ever be persuaded to have your penis turned inside out? I don't think so.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Same with me. You should not read too much into this Elizabeth. Preferences and a core sense of self are not the same thing. No marketing campain could ever change how one feels about oneself.

Francis, perhaps you are right. But it occurs to me that in some instances that is what therapy is intended to do, such as when someone is suicidal or filled with self loathing (not particularly over gender issues).


Could you ever be persuaded to have your penis turned inside out? I don't think so.

Yikes! Hurts to even think about.

Liz

[Frances]

Francis, perhaps you are right. But it occurs to me that in some instances that is what therapy is intended to do, such as when someone is suicidal or filled with self loathing (not particularly over gender issues).

You cannot change someone's gender, and gender deprivation can lead to suicidal thought and self loathing. There is no behavior modification possible here. The therapeutic process in the case of trans people should be about dealing with all concomitant issues to see if they have any incidence on the quest for reassignment. I.e. does the person seek reassignment because of depression or is the person depressed about not being able to get reassigned. After that, it is about seeing if the condition endures. That is why gatekeeping-style gender clinics will demand a two year wait before SRS and even hormones in some cases. If the patient/client still feels the same after two years, then it will probably not go away.

I have seen people delude themselves into wanting to be trans. Most trans people do not want to be trans or wish it on their worst enemy.

How do you know you are a man? You just know right, it's the same for trans people, except that society is communicating back the opposite gender. If that won't f**k up anyone's mind, I don't know what will. Of course we are suicidal and self loathing.

It's Frances with a E as in the actress Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name, as in Francis Sinatra. :)

[Elizabeth Ann]

It's Frances with a E as in the actress Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name, as in Francis Sinatra. :)

Oops. Sorry. I am completely dependent on a spell checker to overcome my slight dyslexia, but there it was right in front of me. I promise to move on to new and more innovative mistakes.

Liz

[Bree-asaurus]

Francis, perhaps you are right. But it occurs to me that in some instances that is what therapy is intended to do, such as when someone is suicidal or filled with self loathing (not particularly over gender issues).

Therapy doesn't change someone's innate sense of self.

Therapy helps people realize why and what they are feeling, so they are more aware. It doesn't change a person at their core.


Most of us think the use of psychotropic drugs for schizophrenia or bipolar disorders is a good thing, but not when the old Soviet Union used it to control dissidents. Either way, we are changing our "intrinsic" inner self. When is it good or bad?

Only problem in our situation is drugs can't fix us... yet :P

[ameliabee]

One current thread is titled "How old is too old for HRT?" and was started by a 22 year old!

I thought I was too old for HRT and I'm 20. See: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?159020-Age-and-Hormone-Efficacy&highlight=

On the plus side, the hysteria I went through at the time got me on DIY HRT, and that was one of the best decisions of my life.

Now I want to crucify those who think they're too old at 16. Go figure.

[Bree-asaurus]

I thought I was too old for HRT and I'm 20. See: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?159020-Age-and-Hormone-Efficacy&highlight=

On the plus side, the hysteria I went through at the time got me on DIY HRT, and that was one of the best decisions of my life.

Now I want to crucify those who think they're too old at 16. Go figure.

If you're transsexual, it's NEVER too late for HRT. You got 8 years on me, kid!

[Melody Moore]

I have to agree about therapy, I have battled gender dysphoria all my life and lately it has
been at it's worse again because I feel I have hit a roadblock in my transition that is stopping
me from going forward with not having enough savings yet to pay for my SRS. I am long
overdue for SRS and my anxiety & depression has been getting bad again and my recent
visits to see my therapist do nothing to help this situation. No amount of medication can
solve my problem, only money and I NEED more work to earn more money. My head has
been such a mess where I don't have the strength, focus or motivation to do what needs
to be done in order for me to find more work at the moment, so I have no choice but to
back away from the things that are causing me additional stress & try to ride the storm out.

[morgan51]

I know how you feel Melody. My heart goes out to you, I'm pretty much in the same boat. Doing little things does help some.

[*Vanessa*]

Elizabeth "Oops. Sorry. I am completely dependent on a spell checker to overcome my slight dyslexia,"

It's a dull mind that can not think of more then one way to spell a word. Well, that's what I say anyway.. :D

Note: No disrespect meant to anyone.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Elizabeth "Oops. Sorry. I am completely dependent on a spell checker to overcome my slight dyslexia,"

It's a dull mind that can not think of more then one way to spell a word. Well, that's what I say anyway.. :D

Note: No disrespect meant to anyone.

One of my favorite corny jokes is about the dyslexic devil worshiper who sold his soul to Santa.

Zil

[Sheren Kelly]

One of my favorite corny jokes is about the dyslexic devil worshiper who sold his soul to Santa. Zil

I knew I was a dyslexic agnostic when I kept waking up in the middle of the night wondering if there really was a dog....