Transgender Beauty Queen and a scenerio to think about.

[Katesback]

Hi there everyone. As many of you know about the trans beauty queen and her disqualification from the contest. Also many of you have seen me write more than once that the most important thing a TS girl needs to learn is to keep her mouth shut.

The news does not mention how the beauty contest found out about her past so this scenerio is nothing more than a possibility.

So lets visualize that the girl is sitting around talking to some of the other girls and voluntarily mentions she is trans. An event that all to many early transitioners go through. Next thing is the news that she voluntarily sharred spreads like wildfire and the beauty contest finds out.

This girl from today on is not a woman she is a trans woman. She has been labeled by the world press as a trans woman. She will NEVER EVER EVER have the chance to just be the woman she claims she is. She has NO CHOICE in this whatsoever but if she had kept her mouth shut she could very well have continued to live her life as a normal woman.

This is not an issue of stealth. You have never herd me advocate stealth. What you have herd me say is that the sooner you learn to keep your mouth shut the better off you will be if you really are a woman. If someone challenges you you simply never admit it. It is that simple. It is nobodys business to know, and you are entitled to your privacy unless you voluntarily give that up. Even if someone digs up some piece of info about your past you certainly dont have to admit to it. You can always deny it. Is it lieing? Hell I would lie any day over the alternative if you have begun to figure out what I am getting at.

Now as I stated before this is just a possible scenerio. I realize some of you will venimitly disagree with me. As I said earlier if your a woman then be one. If you are a trans person and like being a trans person then more power to you. Just be aware that what you do today can set the stage for your entire future. Its like getting a tattoo. You might like it today but will you like it 10 years from now? After you have SRS and are really a woman? I dare say that if you had a chance to talk to people like Donna Rose and ask her if she is happy that she wrote that book, and became an activist and asked her if she would do it the same way again she would say NO, for she is a perfect example of someone who will forever be that trans girl.

Katie

[kimdl93]

Well, I think your point is valid. A woman certainly has every right to privacy about something so intimate. If a person wants to be considered a woman and not be labeled otherwise by someone, it probably doesn't work to announce that she's a trans woman.

In this particular case, Jenna Talackova competed in an international trans gender beauty contest in 2010, so the cat was obviously out of the bag. She wasn't claming to be a biological female, but she certainly makes a pretty convincing arguement that she is a woman nonetheless. Her intention was to challenge a barrier, knowing full well that there would be push-back from regressive sorts. I have to admire her for being willing to stand up against discrimination.

[Katesback]

Ok then she still voluntarily gave out private information by competing in the trans beauty contest. If she had not done that perhaps she might have won the REAL womens contest. Ya get what I am saying.

When I was working with trans people I began playing rollerderby. I made the mistake on being to some degree out as a trans woman. A mistake I deeply regret. A year later a team payed me to play in a game for them in Georgia. I went to the game and was confronted by the other team. By then I was wiser and I stood my ground and denyed being trans. They were trying to get me disqualified from playing in that game. Needless to say I played the game and never admited being trans.

You learn from your mistakes and perhaps one of the reasons I wrote this post was to help someone avoid some of the mistakes that I and other trans women made before them.

[Pamela Kay]

I agree with you for the most part Kate.

The thing I got from reading that article was that she said she had participated in both regular and transsexual beauty pagents.

"She's previously competed in both transsexual and women's beauty pageants."

If I wanted to stay under the radar I wouldn't participate in a trans only pagent and then enter one that is high profile, even though they may or may not have spelled out the "natural born women" that they claim.

If they want "natural born women" then they need to screen everyone to make sure there aren't any GG's who have had plastic surgery either and not just single out the transwoman.

[SandraAbsent]

I agree with this 100%. As I am still very early in my transition, I find it hard not to talk about, but ONLY with my close friends. Because I am transitioning in my existing workplace, not a single new employee starts without someone whispering in their ear. It becomes annoying really, but thats the way us girls are (or at least what we are stereotyped as) Chatty! It's one of the reasons I do not "hang out" with a lot of other trans women and one of the reasons I don't go to a lot of support meetings anymore. I just want to shut up and be a woman. Unfortunately it seems that sometimes I don't always have that choice as others make it for me, but am sure it will become easier with time, hormones, and surgeries:)

The OP discusses voluntarily outing yourself, and trusting that no one will use it against you. I think we all have experienced this and its a giant leap of faith that sadly will not come true. FACT: people will use it against you if they are untrustworthy and have motive!

[Badtranny]

I agree that Kate's position is a valid one. However that does not invalidate my choice to be openly trans. Lighting a second candle does not dim the first one.

[Melody Moore]

I agree that Kate's position is a valid one. However that does not invalidate my choice to be openly trans. Lighting a second candle does not dim the first one.

Kate, even though I agree with your opinion to some degree, I also appreciate Melissa's comment. I think
what is "the right thing to do" is a matter of personal choice which really has nothing to do with you Kate!
So what gives you the right to be telling this model & other people what they should & should not do here?

[Katesback]

Melody I am shocked you got a post with one paragraph. Usually you write a book.

Melody your Pre op. I am years post op. I have the wisdom you do not. It is a simple fact that if you are a woman you should give yourself every chance you can to be a woman. Walking around telling people you are something other than a woman is not going to help you.

Now just as badtranny said if ya want to be a trans person then thats fine. Be my guest but I can tell you that it often comes back to haunt many of us after we get past the proud stage. This almost always happens post op.

So yes you have a right to walk around with a t shirt saying tranny on it. By all means but then your not a woman if you do that now are you? Your a trans person at best and in some peoples eyes far worse. Finally if you think that doing so will change the world............ well ok thats fine you can fight for the third gender all you want just like the people in the US that fight for soverign citizens and not pay taxes. Of course at some point they get bit in the ass and realize that society does not go along with thier point of views.

Katie







Kate, even though I agree with your opinion to some degree, I also appreciate Melissa's comment. I think
what is "the right thing to do" is a matter of personal choice which really has nothing to do with you Kate!
So what gives you the right to be telling this model & other people what they should & should not do here?

[ReineD]

Kate, I see your point: if someone wants to live their life as a woman, they need to stop telling everyone they are trans. This is especially true if they want to be stealth even though you did say that you weren't specifically talking about being stealth ... (although being stealth is the only condition I can think of where it is important for others to NOT know someone's background).

But, like Andrej Pevic and others (even in this forum), I can't help but think that the contestant Jenna Talackova is not hiding the fact she is trans as is evidenced by the trans beauty pageants she has entered. She is likely not interested in being stealth. In fact, I'm guessing if she won the Canadian Miss Universe contest she'd quite like the world to know that she's trans. :)

[Badtranny]

Now just as badtranny said if ya want to be a trans person then thats fine. Be my guest but I can tell you that it often comes back to haunt many of us after we get past the proud stage. This almost always happens post op.

So maybe you're right and I will one day regret my choice to be openly trans. Maybe 10 years from now I will look back and think that I got it wrong. Well, if I do, then it won't surprise me. I am frequently wrong about many things, but one thing I am not is timid and indecisive. Right now I'm on a mission and I think it's important for me to do what I can to advance the "cause". I have been gifted with many things, among them are courage and the ability to communicate. I feel like it is my duty to use these gifts to speak out for those that are not so fortunate. There are Trans men and women out there who struggle far more than I have to be themselves and for them I will NOT take the easy way. I will be proudly different and people will feel affection for me in spite of themselves. I am loud and proud for those that are proud and quiet. Not everybody loves a microphone and that's okay, I do and I will use that mic to educate those that hate us for no other reason than they just don't know any of us.

Am I making a mistake? Maybe, but I will be the judge of that, not someone who chose a different path for reasons of their very own.

[Melody Moore]

Melody your Pre op. I am years post op. I have the wisdom you do not. It is a simple fact that if you are a woman you should give yourself every chance you can to be a woman. Walking around telling people you are something other than a woman is not going to help you.
You really are not smart are you? Because you have been told many times by myself & many
other people on this forum that what is between my legs does not define me as a woman.
And you ALWAYS stoop to these low attacks to try to assassinate someone's character.
I will eventually have SRS but in the meantime that does not stop me from carrying legal
identification that shows I am a FEMALE. So I will go by what my documentation defines
me as and how I feel about myself not by what you think I am.

And I don't walk around and advertise who I am, and nor do I want to encourage people to coming up
getting in my face screaming 'tranny', but how people wish to express themselves is their business not
yours and this is what we are debating here, not my personal gender identity. So I would like to suggest
that you leave your personal attacks & character assassinations right out of this debate from now on.

[Katesback]

Your overlooking the fact that the most effective activism is to just live a normal life and when people do detect your different they see your living a normal life and learn from it.

[Melody Moore]

Your overlooking the fact that the most effective activism is to just live a normal life and when people do detect your different they see your living a normal life and learn from it.
I totally disagree with this Kate, your theory is seriously flawed and here is why...

Did you know that many people in society don't realise how many FtM Transsexuals there are out
there because it is easier for a trans man to go stealth & to be accepted than it is for a trans woman?
Many people I speak to are shocked to even know that FtMs actually exist because of their invisibility.

So I believe your theory is seriously flawed, if people don't speak up and let the world know we exist then
we will continued to be overlooked. The fact is Kate, Trans Activists & Action Groups have been a lot more
effective in changing laws and policies more times than any trans women who are living underground. And
just because we choose to be activists what gives you any credibility to claim we are not living normal lives?

[ReineD]

Kate, there really is more than one way to make decisions and to live life. I understand that you are passionate about the choices that you've made for yourself and so you should. But please allow there are others who choose to live their lives differently than you, and so they should too, and without judgment from you. They live in different parts of the world than you do, in different circles, with different levels of acceptance around them. And yes, this includes the decision to be trans.

If someone asks for your opinion, please do feel free to continue to give it. But to argue with someone who hasn't asked is divisive.

[Melody Moore]

If someone asks for your opinion, please do feel free to continue to give it. But to argue with someone who hasn't asked is divisive.
It is a lot more than just "divisive".

Quite often when Kate gives her opinion on these matters it really is hurtful and very much a personal
attack - I AM INSULTED by her comments about my gender identity because that is not up for debate here.

[Marleena]

I usually don't post in here but this woman has just helped the TS cause immensely. She is beautiful and TS and not afraid to let the world know. I only see this as a positive thing. It's called awareness.:)

[Katesback]

Reine I have not demanded anyone do anything. I have sharred a point of view and further said if someone does not agree then thats fine.

Melody I will ask you this of all the activists out there how many are Pre-op vs Post-op? I would submit to you that the majority are pre-op OR people that were activists and well known pre-op and had no other choice after SRS because like the pagent winner they are cannot live a normal life since they are branded trans woman forever.

If you can accept that the majority are pre op then perhaps you might think as to why that is. Perhaps it is because we post ops learned and became wise. As I have said two times already if you want to be a trans woman then fine, more power to you. Just be aware that 10 years from now after you get SRS you probably will have wished you did it differently.

I can give one more example of this. Take Julie. The girl that likes squriels. She used to be active, she posted all the time. You dont see posts from her anymore now do you? I talk to her. Recently I asked her why she did not post anymore. I wont say what she said but lets just say she has moved on.

Katie

PS Melody if your insulted by what someone says on the internet it explains why your an activist. Sounds like your always on the defensive and feeling like you have to prove yourself (crap I forgot that is one of the differences between pre op and post op). I could care less whats between your legs but the rest of the world does. If you think that telling them that gender is in your head is going to make a difference then more power to you. I wonder if las Vegas takes bets against your success at convincing people of this. I want to place a bet.

Lets get back to the point. If you are a woman then be a woman. If you what to be something else then fine but you not going to be a woman in the eyes of the world regardless of whats in your head or between your legs.

[Danielle.N]

I doubt it has any lasting effect on the "cause." By next week anyone not a member LGTB community will have forgotten about this. As for not being afraid to let the world know - did she even have a choice once the media vultures latched on to the story? Maybe she was willing, I don't know...I wouldn't be.

I have to agree with Kate on this. I'm not putting myself and my family through transition only to come out the other side and label myself trans. I'd save a lot of money on surgery and prescriptions if that was the goal...hell, I could stop right now. My pretty pink lips will be tightly shut.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Normally, there is very little that I can agree with Katie on. But this is one time I agree with her 100%. Once you fess up that you are Trans, it would take an act of God to undo that admission and the damage it has and will cause.

[Kathryn Martin]

I am with you on this and with Kate. While I do not have the stealth option having decided to remain in my community and being known I am socialized as a woman in my social environment and will be finally fixed in 40 days from now.

I cannot imagine identifying as a transsexuals after surgery. Being transsexuals is a history not a status.

I am really concerned about Jenna having been confronted with he history instead of her reality. It's a shame.


I doubt it has any lasting effect on the "cause." By next week anyone not a member LGTB community will have forgotten about this. As for not being afraid to let the world know - did she even have a choice once the media vultures latched on to the story? Maybe she was willing, I don't know...I wouldn't be.

I have to agree with Kate on this. I'm not putting myself and my family through transition only to come out the other side and label myself trans. I'd save a lot of money on surgery and prescriptions if that was the goal...hell, I could stop right now. My pretty pink lips will be tightly shut.

[CharleneT]

. . .

... I can't help but think that the contestant Jenna Talackova is not hiding the fact she is trans as is evidenced by the trans beauty pageants she has entered. She is likely not interested in being stealth. In fact, I'm guessing if she won the Canadian Miss Universe contest she'd quite like the world to know that she's trans. :)

BINGO !! I would not be surprised if she had this as a secret hope or plan. I'm not judging whether that is good or bad, but by taking this route she as effectively made herself "trans" permanently. I hope that is what JT wanted:thinking:

[Inna]

well........first of, everyone is the owner of their own interpretation of reality! What ever that reality may be, our world filled by emotions galore interpreting and positioning for comfort and acceptance. But here is the controversy, all the people who are affected by trans condition will not be accepted if hiding will be the only option.

What are we after, stealth or true acceptance, living new lives within the shadows of our past or living new life? I for one, will always be proud, not of the times gone by in denial and anguish I remember, but the future I built upon the ruins of past to become whom I always was.

Just because I was afraid to confront life with my own truth I was sentenced to misery of false pretense and only when I broke through and was no longer afraid, did I become.

If not for those who were brave before us, we will not walk freely as African American, gay, lesbian or transgender, if not for their proclamation of their past we would not be able to experience freedom, which as not perfect yet, needs others who will carry the torch.

I am proud to be transgender, but this is my color, my skin and I respect others ideals as I hope they do mine

[Badtranny]

Well I know one thing for sure, nothing gets my dander up like people casting aspersions on my lifestyle. Let me tell you how it's gonna work for me; I will do everything I can to look stealth but I will not be. I will not run from who I was and/or who I am. You wanna call me a tranny? Go right ahead, it doesn't phase me in the least. I'm proud to be a transgender person and I have zero concern about whatever problems that might cause me. I'm quite certain that I'll be fine.

Unlike those that inhabit the other side of this argument I have no judgement of those that live in stealth or those that deny their history. I wish everyone the best trip possible as they travel their path, but as much as I respect their decision it has NO bearing on mine.

I will live as I please and if that causes any consternation within our little community, there's not a whole lot I can do about it. I've always done things the hard way. It's my nature.

[Nicole Erin]

Kate's OP could have been summed up in one sentence - "Loose lips sink ships"

Basically there are things best not mentioned. Even though I don't pass that great, I don't talk about my gender status. It is not a game or anything, I am just me. People figure it out I am sure but I am not gonna say anything. I don't even think about it myself most of the time.

I think at first one likes to talk about being trans but after a time it is a non-issue.

On a related note - mentioning you are trans is as good an idea as mentioning you have extra cash. Like if you got a $100 bonus check at work you wouldn't say anything cause then people (especially your spouse or kids) would be wanting to figure out ways to spend it.

For Jenna - seems kind of a waste to go thru all those surgeries, have the ability to blend in, then blow her cover.
Let us not forget - to the rest of the world, a TS is a TS whether she passes 100% or looks as bad a John Goodman in drag.

[ReineD]

For Jenna - seems kind of a waste to go thru all those surgeries, have the ability to blend in, then blow her cover.

Call me crazy, but I believe there's a trend emerging, which is to honor who you are. I also believe the F2Ms (not all of them) are quicker to catch onto it. I don't have the energy right now to look for the links, but I've read articles about this and I've met a few F2Ms who present as men but who insist on using "she", not "him" or "hir", for the precise reason they honor all of who they are. And of course there are people like Andrej Pevic who is wildly accepted and admired.

And I also believe that as pockets of people begin to acknowledge the very real fact there are individuals who do not identify with their birth gender (there are more and more positive stories about this every day), the sense of "weirdness" or "wrongness" associated with it is being lost which makes having to go stealth not quite as crucial as before. I'm not saying we're there, but there are people who are noticing this and living accordingly. Personally, I think this is healthy. I also think it is healthy for someone to go stealth if she feels this is the best decision for her.

Imagine a world where we would all be free to choose to live as the gender we identify with, say after the age of 4 or 5. No judgment. No stigma. Universal acceptance. No reason to lose families, friends, or jobs over it. No reason to start new lives. Would such people be able to pretend they were not born in the gender they were assigned at birth?

I know these thoughts might seem radical to some members here, but I'm just trying to explain why there are people who do not fear being known as trans even when they live as a woman (or man in the case of F2Ms). They live successful lives just as they are. They've found their niche.

[Katesback]

Reine,

I have nowhere near the amount of exposure to FtoMs that I do trans women. I will say though that a lot of them that I have met do exhibit a trans persons attitude. Gender queer or whatever you want to call it. As I said earlier thats thier call.

As far as trans women go. I see you keep bringing up stealth, and suggest it has something to do with fear. I myself am not afraid, I just go by the stance that if you are a woman then be a woman. As you know I play rollerderby. It is not tennis, its a full contact sport where we run each other over for fun. Imagine the thoughs of womens minds having to play against someone who openly claims to be a trans woman. Inequity comes to mind here. Never mind the fact that I have been run over myself many times it still sounds like I might have an advantage. Thats just one reason I learned to keep quiet.

It all boils down to giving yourself the best chance for a NORMAL future. As I said earlier a lot of early transitioners (including myself) have this tendency to want to talk about all the new and exciting experiences they are going through. Thankfully I learned from this and moved on. I wrote this post to possibly catch someone who is in that stage and perhaps they might get some insight from the post.

For those that are openly tranny and are an advocate, the post is not meaningful to them since they have chosen that path. So be it.

Katie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

hmmm....
double hmmm...

I don't think there is a trend at all... the media are whor**, they love train wrecks and prurient stories ....we are prurient stories...we mean nothing to them...nobody cares about us...nobody has the intelligence, compassion or TIME to go through all of our BS

the folks you mentioned reine are NOT post-op transsexuals..and they are people that make a living off being transsexual...they benefit financially by using their gender conflict whether trans or tg or cd.. but everytime somebody mixes a cd or tg person with a ts woman they are talking about apples and oranges....

..we have all learned from our experience...we have no stake in gender fluidity...we are women.. i have no stake in the gender binary., but i learned that i am binary...the concept of ts describes my path, it does not describe me...i'm just a woman that got here in a really unique way

..that doesnt mean i support or don't support others...its just my observation
that the VAST VAST majority of post op transsexuals realize that we just want to be one of the girls...and i've found more and more that i bristle on the inside when my ts nature is brought up even with supportive friends and family.. it feels bad...i can deal with it, but i don't like it..i never ever want to talk about it anymore except here and in teaching situations (and now i dont give my name out anymore at those)...this is something i had to learn for myself...and its consistent with the OP

Surely the renee richards of the world have made it easier for many of us...its a neccessary evil..and if you saw her documentary, you clearly see that she regrets that her life was not more private...she gave up a lot..but it was her choice, and it was her aggressive nature at the time..

I support the lifestyle choice of out, trans and proud... its not for me..and in my experience, folks that did that only were happy about it they make money off it..whether its modeling, writing, entertainment, srs surgeons or activism.(the only respectable ts centered careers)..

btw...one more dirty truth....being out and trans only has a chance to work well if you look like a model....

[Katesback]

Reine:

Another thought is that for the F to M crowd as unfortunate as it is there is no good surgery to get them the final part that makes a Man a Man. As I stated in the real world (regardless of what the in your head crowd thinks) that is what defines a person, and because they have no reasonable chance of having a penis it is probably a lot easier to be gender queer and on the fringe with the lesbian population. Sadly most straight females want a Man with a penis.

As I have stated a number of times. The real transition starts after SRS for M to F TS girls. Thats when it all becomes serious. Thats why most of us Post op girls are quiet and not activists. Sadly for the F to M crowd I suspect that they cannot reach that step in the process because as stated earler there is no reasonable surgery for them to have that final part that changes everything.

I must say I have no desire for these words to be abrasive. I am just being realistic. Melody I know the gender in your head stuff. What you cannot understand is what happens after SRS since you have yet to experience it.

[Tamara Croft]

Another thought is that for the F to M crowd as unfortunate as it is there is no good surgery to get them the final part that makes a Man a Man.That's where you are wrong. We have a FTM member here who has had sucessful lower surgery in the UK - Felix. He has also had top surgery all with good results.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?156996-Recovering-From-Final-Lower-Surgery-)

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?143181-I-ve-had-my-Chest-Reconstruction-)-)-)

[Sophora]

. I could care less whats between your legs but the rest of the world does.

I disagree with this. I have never had anyone come up to me and ask me "Do you have a penis?" Maybe I just have been lucky but it does seem that 97% of the people I interact even care anymore if they are talking to a male or female. I have even given people my ID(which states that I am male...I can't change it until after august for a really crappy reason) and still call me Ma'am right after.

[Chickhe]

I disagree. There is no legal classification for a transgender person by societies own obviously imperfect rules, that she is either a man or woman. She clearly was legally a woman when she entered the contest and she would not be legally able to enter a male contest either. So, the contest rules are discriminatory. She is female no matter what she says she is or her past is according to the law.... however, if you want to throw out the laws and make your own and create some new class, transgender (or natural born female), then the contest should have no support from the courts when people lie to compete. ...I don't think you can have it both ways. But, it is true, when you say or do something it changes the way people think about you. Basically, this whole pagent idea is about being the perfect model woman and really is all about acting and the actual gender should not be a consideration. Take the european model who is both in the top 100 female model and 20 male model lists...it is possible to be both or either and this girl who living her life as a female should be included. Its just sad.

[ReineD]

As far as trans women go. I see you keep bringing up stealth, and suggest it has something to do with fear.

No, I don't think that transwomen who are stealth do so out of fear. I believe they want to live as the women they are and they don't want to be labeled as "trans". I respect this wholeheartedly! I did, however, allude in another post recently that surely some stealth transwomen must experience a degree of disquiet at the prospect that maybe one day someone will discover their past and tell everyone.

I also know transmen who are men and who would not consider being known as "she". They are men through and through and this is who they are.

What I'm saying is, there is also a new breed of transpeople who are emerging, who believe differently. For a variety of reasons, they have found their niche and they do not hide their birth sex even though they choose to live in their target gender. I had a long conversation with a FtM a few years ago. I won't get into it all now (I'm sure I've posted this somewhere on the board before). But even though in all aspects she presented male, she was not interested in surgery and she honored being called "she". This was a big surprise to me at the time since the only transmen I had communicated with were here (Ze specifically, who by no means identified as "she"). Anyway I've since read articles about such FtM (not sure if this is how they identify), and I also see evidence of some MtFs who also are not interested in hiding their roots even though they live as women. They have found acceptance in their milieu for who they are even though people know their past (which admittedly is rare in our society), and they have found peace with themselves.

My whole point was not to say which is better or which is worse. Everyone needs to make the decision for themselves based on their own life circumstances, where they live, the other people in their lives. But I do strongly believe there is not just ONE way to be trans and nothing else is valid.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Its not what is between your legs that makes your gender ...your gender is what it is....if you are lucky, your body parts will match

Both ftm's and mtf's have different kinds of "state of the art" procedures and treatments available to them...ftm's get really deep voices really easily for example... how many of those procedures you do doesn't define whether you are male or female..

i would speculate, however, that there is a pretty deep internal connection between your internal "known" gender and your private parts
...the feeling of completeness is something i did not expect..i was excited but ambivalent about my grs, i didn't feel i needed it to survive..
Today i cannot imagine living the "other" way...its hard to describe..it changed everything

[ReineD]

That's a good point, Kaitlyn. I think I even asked the question of you once too (or maybe it was Rianna), if there was a spectrum to being TS. If some TSs absolutely need the genitals of the target gender in order to feel whole, while others (who also live full time in their target gender) don't feel this need as strongly. And if there is such a spectrum, does it mean that one is more validly a TS (or a woman for M2Fs) than another? I suppose there are just as many answers to this question as there are TSs, and everyone will have their own truths, in other words there is no absolute?

[Badtranny]

My whole point was not to say which is better or which is worse. Everyone needs to make the decision for themselves based on their own life circumstances, where they live, the other people in their lives. But I do strongly believe there is not just ONE way to be trans and nothing else is valid.

Unfortunately the opponents to my position like to make the case that THEY are right and people like me are wrong and one day I will see the error of my ways, but it will be too late. The damage will have been done. Everyone will know that I am (gasp) transgender.

I see this discussion is also beginning to devolve into the old post-ops know best dogma which is curious because I don't see how the genitals make a difference since the beauty pageant contestant was in fact post-op. YET she is still branded by the scarlet T, first out there, then in here. I suppose some animals are more equal than others.

[Melody Moore]

I see this discussion is also beginning to devolve into the old post-ops know best dogma which is curious because I don't see how the genitals make a difference since the beauty pageant contestant was in fact post-op.
What do you expect with a thread on this type of topic posted by this person Melissa?

I could see this was going to happen from the very first post. It is obvious that Kate thinks she knows
everything about being and to be quite frank I am sick of her attitude. And she ignores the fact is I am
more of a GG than she will ever be because of my condition. But I don't pretend to be the expert on all
things trans, or think that I have 'one up' on anyone else on this forum or in this community like Kate.

Kate treats pre-op members here like they are second rate to her and also naive & stupid about transition.

FYI Kate, I am well aware of the fact that transition still continues for many years after being post op and the
fact is SRS is not what defines me as a woman - people accept me and treat me with all the respect of any
other female now even without SRS so the bottom line is I couldn't give a f*ck what Kate thinks. But what
really does concern me about her attitude is that there is evidence that these 'put downs" & bullish behaviour
by post ops who like to play gatekeeper does upset pre-ops with severe gender dysphoria which means they
already have high levels of very anxiety & depression & are living on the edge over their pre-operative status.

One simple push by someone like Kate and the person ends up attempting to take their own life. So read my lips..
I HAVE FELT SUICIDAL MYSELF BECAUSE OF "KNOW-IT-ALL" TRANSSEXUALS LIKE KATE, SO THANKS A LOT!

This has also been the reason why I have withdrawn my support of some transsexual groups because they
are separatist just like Kate is because these people are doing far too much damage in the trans community.
I also know for a fact that a state run support organisation here will not support any such group that peddles
this very dangerous rhetoric that Kate also peddles and it is time that this crap came to an end on ALL forums.

We are defined by ourselves and how other people see us, not by Kate or anyone else. What happened in this
pageant was sad, but at the same time I applaud this girl for having more guts than others I know here to step
up for trans awareness which also says a lot about some of the people on this forum who cannot appreciate this.

So this is another poster I will no longer reply to because of the negativeness they are also peddling on this forum.

[ameliabee]

Forgive me if I just don't understand why anyone would out themselves like that? I mean, sure, you can be openly trans, but why would you do it? There is nothing to be gained from such an admission.

[Tamara Croft]

And this thread is done :rolleyes: