Evidence of change in social perceptions:

[suchacutie]

After my experience this morning I thought it might be a positive for us to mention the concrete examples of the improving social climate for those who are more fluid in gender issues:

This morning I walked out of my lecture hall into the lobby and there among a group of undergraduates was a handsome young man, tallish, with white running shoes, black pants, black shirt, and a black jacket. The tailoring was clearly not masculine, the jacket had no buttons and was rather long. The other distinctive feature was the well-groomed black hair, black mascara, and very wide black eyeliner, effectively black eyeshadow used as eyeliner on the upper lid and half of the lower lid. He was in a group of nominally "normal" undergraduates and it was clear that no one even raised an eyebrow as he was engaged in conversation with all of the group. This would not have occurred just a few years ago.

I do hope that there are other encouraging signs to talk about!

Tina

[ArleneRaquel]

Tina,
That is a great post, and I hope that times they are a changin. My last bad outting enfemme was at least five years ago, but my two neighbors are still morons on the subject of LGBT issue . My recent church outtings enfemme have been very rewarding, and encouraging.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Tina, that's a really good point, changes are coming much faster than I ever thought they would. I see it in several settings myself, but not quite as openly as you describe.

[GBJoker]

I'm having a hard time picturing this... An... Addams Family goth was acceptable in a random group of people? If so, then my response is, "That is soooooo 1990s."

Otherwise, I'm missing something.

[docrobbysherry]

Isn't it NICE to see something positive posted here? I certainly think so. WHATEVER the reason! Thanks, Tina!

[Beverley Sims]

The appearance sounds more Goth than Feminine.
Uni campuses are more accepting of different types of dress.
I agree it was good to see that the acceptance of individuals dressed "differently" is spreading.

[Frédérique]

Evidence of change in social perceptions: After my experience this morning I thought it might be a positive for us to mention the concrete examples of the improving social climate for those who are more fluid in gender issues…

I hate to ask, but can you tell me what country you live in, or, more specifically, what PLANET you’re from? If I were to dress as the gentleman you described in your post, I would expect to be kidnapped by an unruly torch-wielding mob, taken out of town before the kids saw me, and tied to a round hay bale in the middle of a herbicide-infused field – “clearly NOT masculine” doesn’t cut it in these here parts, cutie…

Changes in social perceptions may be occurring in a subtle manner in sequestered localities, but where I live (or find myself), the battle lines are drawn. Excessive use of black eyeliner or black eye shadow is akin to graffiti “tagging” on a boxcar to conservatives/conformists who keep an eye on the decline of purported civilization. The normality that you have observed may simply be evidence of Goth seeping into everyday life (i.e. lots of black) – in this case, it has less to do with LBGT, and more to do with willful artistic expression. I mean, just because I groom my hair a certain way may only indicate an immersion into accepted trends amongst peers and nothing more…

Meanwhile, if I place my hand on my hip just-so, it DOES indicate that I’m a MtF crossdresser, not to mention more “fluid” along gender lines – I challenge society to perceive THAT…
:straightface:

[kimdl93]

Goth or feminine, there is clearly a gradual shift towards tolerance occurring in the more urban areas. I don't know if it began with "Will and Grace" or "Ellen" but certainly the pace has quickened since the 90s....except of course, in Kansas ;)

[simplyme]

I'm leaning toward the goth side. I do think liner and mascara are attractive on men. This post has inspired me to google images of high class gothic fashion. Regardless....goth or not...nice post.

[suchacutie]

Ah, I see where my description could have been construed as Goth. It sure wasn't. There were no goth trappings at all, but a clearly gender-fluid presentation and there was nothing shy about it. We're in New England, in the US for those who were interested in that issue.

But that raises the interesting thought that if others could construe the presentation as Goth that he felt more secure in presenting as gender-fluid. Interesting idea!

[Pythos]

Sounds like a fellow darkling than a full on gender bender. Was his look androgynous in nature? Just the description to me says "Goth" and to a "t". Sounds like something I would wear.

Suchacutie, "blending" goth can take on a very androgynous to feminine look. Have a look at "goth bois" or "goth boys" in flicker and you may see something similar to what you have seen.

In the long run it matters not. His peers were showing respect and that is what matters the most.

[suchacutie]

Pythos, of course you are correct about the "blending" goth look details, and that certainly could have been his intent, and there have been more of fewer presenting a Goth look for a number of years, but this was clearly a different statement than I had seen over the years, one that was clearly an androgynous mix leaning much more toward the feminine side.

However, what really struck me was the different mix of people around him. My observation has been that "birds of a feather" had moved as a group and almost never was there a mixing like I saw. This was a clear acceptance of someone who was clearly presenting in a very different way from the group he was in, and the fact was that he just fit in. I smiled the rest of the day.

I wasn't trying to hog this thread with the goth vs not goth issue, but was hoping that maybe we can collectively see a positive movement seeing those small incremental changes that are moving us forward.

[Tina B.]

The other day the wife and I where having breakfast in a local restaurant, in a small town in the far north end of California (we are not like San Francisco, or West Hollywood by any means). As we where leaving, there was a young man also on his way out. He was wearing a really nice pair of Rust colored pants of a heavy fabric, corduroy, or wool didn't get close enough to tell, with that he had a faded looking lime green coat that flared out at the hips, and a Mandarin style collar, with a long scarf that mached the pants. I thought, for this town, that's different, but yet no one seemed to notice him, as he went out the door, I relized, the jacket wasn't faeded after all, it was cut velvet, and it had a beautiful, femmine floral patteren to it.
In my day, I guy could have got beaten up showning up at a club like that, much less out in broad daylight. I think, or at least I hope, the world might be starting to grow up, it won't get there in my time, but for the younger ones, it's better than it was, and seems to be getting better all the time.
Tina B.

[Rogina B]

I think there is a whole lot more acceptance of "different" every day.People are starting to realize that "normal" is a setting on a washing machine,not a discription of human behavior. And,if one is not threatening to their "normal" lifestyle,I doubt Kansas is any different.

[AllisonK]

I wish I could say that it was more of an open issue here. I have worked at my current job for only 4 months and have already heard the "jokes" about LGBT people from most of the people I work with. While none of them know that I myself fit into that catagory. I do speak up on the issue but it does show me that times here are no better than 10 years ago. There are a lot more gay people here than when I first moved here 10 years ago. The only change that has been made is now people don't make fun of them to their face, it's always behind their back. Still not acceptable in my book. :(

[DonnaT]

Androgyny or goth, for men, is a bit more accepting to the public than wearing a skirt or dress, I reckon.

[Nikki A.]

I do think among the younger gen there is more of an acceptance to alternative lifestyles. However how much things change will depend on society as a whole changes.

[Barbara Ella]

I do believe we are seeing a great increase in tolerance, but that is not the same as acceptance. Being tolerated by no means changes the mindset. Over the long run it can have an effect as youngsters do not see bad things happening, but if they get it at home, the hatred will continue. I am just not sure that in many locales all that has been achieved is tolerance, but i will accept that if it eliminated public actions against any group. Let them be stupid haters in their own home where they eat sh*t and die.

Babes

[ArleneRaquel]

Until we are seen as normal human beings we will subjected to all types of ridicule and bigotry.

[JessHaust]

It amuses me that signs of tolerance by the general public are met here in this forum with a distinct lack of tolerence.
The real world is not the big bad wolf that some require that we believe and this is just an example of it.
Was it more goth than femme? maybe, but that's not the point, society has become more tolerant of the individual expressing themselves in ways that do not imitate everyone else.

[PretzelGirl]

Sorry, I can't help myself (with apologies to Frederique).


except of course, in Kansas ;)

Toto, it looks like we aren't in Kansas anymore!


It amuses me that signs of tolerance by the general public are met here in this forum with a distinct lack of tolerence.
The real world is not the big bad wolf that some require that we believe and this is just an example of it.

I agree with you Jess. I hear about how I live in the worst conservative area, yet I never have problems and see many not having problems. We hear the same about hicks and the bible belt area. But what is good about it is that it keeps our survival mode going. Yes, those who want to get out can get out and enjoy themselves. But if anyone has any reservations, these thoughts keep them erring on the safe side of things which is better than erring on the careless side.

So while I think it is a more accepting world, we each need to realize it at our own pace so we stay in our own comfort zones.