FFS Consult with Spiegel

[NCAmazon]

Ok so from working with my Counselor specialist etc. It was deemed ok for me to explore FFS options. I was gonna get Rhinplasty anyway as a guy just because its something I've wanted to do for a bit so I evaluated everything and decided to look into a partial FFS taking the Rhinoplasty in a slightly more feminine route and see how I feel.

I spoke to Spiegel's assistant on the phone and within 2 days I was setup for a free phone consult with Dr Spiegel. I sent both male and female mode pictures.

After waiting 10 minutes I received no call. I then took the step to call his office and the assisstant immediatley connected me to Dr. Spiegel. I guess he's a busy big timer.

He first asked me "What are you looking to do and what are you looking to change".

I basically explained that I was interested in Rhino and forehead contour work. He asked if I want to be full time right now. I said "not at the current moment".

Then he said he can gladly do that work I asked for and give a more feminine appearance but also not totally overhaul me while in male mode.

I asked what he thought about my jaw and he said "Its a strong male jaw, but not too big, but its there".

He kept most of his answers short and to the point. he was brief. I asked about recovery and he said "swelling reduces in a few days". I asked what's the difference between partial ffs and full FFS and he said "People going full time just get more stuff done".


He was cordial. Then he said he'll send me a quote. I waited a day then emailed his assistant and then she issued me the quote.

Overall he didn't push anything and had the what do you want and if it was possible I can do it attitude. I guess you just have to just trust and go with the surgeon's judgement if you go with them.

So basically he doesn't judge or critisize your look, but asks you to decide what you want. Good attitude. But I was a bit nervous that he doesn't go into detail about how the work will be done. But he's a big name and doesn't need to explain himself I guess.

[Aprilrain]

If you decide to have the work done then he will spend a little more time explaining the details if you wish. Frankly I didn't give a hoot how he did it so long as the result was good and there are no complications. BTW I have a titanium plate in my forehead :eek:

My suggestion FWIW is to do everything you will want to have done. TRUST ME, you do not want to do FFS more than once and if your like me you will look in the mirror and wonder if you did enough! Also doing procedures piecemeal will cost more in OR, anesthesia, travel and accommodation expenses.

My only complaint is how strange my chin feels and the subsequent lessening of mobility of my lower lip (hard to explain) none of which affects the cosmetic result. Chin/jaw work is the most invasive IMO and takes the longest to heal. I'm glad I did it in spite of the odd side effects.

My avatar is of me about a month after FFS with Spiegel.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i am not judging you... i understand we all may have different motivations..

pls consider this thought...it is possible today to get ffs that is so good, that you will never ever get read by your face...ever!
your face can be so "female" that it can override your hands, shoulders, height voice...and perhaps give you time to do things like work on your voice...

as april says, you DO NOT want to go through this twice...and a halfway there ffs will drive you crazy if you transition...if you don't really pass effortlessly, then ffs is a vanity surgery that is big big $$'s

if you are certain you will never transition (heh), and you need to live a double life of some kind, then the idea of softening up your face can work...but you need to understand in that case you may end up to feminine to really look male!!!!!!!!!!!!

so be really careful...

btw.. the reason your consult was limited in scope is because phone/pictures do not really do justice...you have to see the face in full 3d to really know...speigel likes xrays too before making a real decision (at least he did when i was him 3 yrs ago)

in any case, you have a lot to think about... i wish you good decision making!!

April...i have some minor nerve pain in one cheek...and when i touch above my left eye...i feel it tingle all over top of my head..its a nerve glitch.... i believe these will end up being permanent..im with you ...i'll take my minor side effects anyday...

[NCAmazon]

Interesting, most resources say to get parts done at a time and get the minimum necessary. I was gonna do a rhinoplasty anyway, So if I get it and some forehead work to soften a bit I was told by the doctor that it would allow me to present as both well. But of course some makeup and other accessories will still be needed to present as female.

I've read of TS women who have had over 15 face operations!!

I don't think it will make a look too non male unless you add Eye work, Cheek and Jaw work as well. The Jaw and mouth work are what concern me the most so I wasn't looking at that right now.

[ReineD]

I think April & Kaitlyn are saying, if eventually you think you'll want for example major work done on your chin to make it look completely female, it would cost twice as much (not to mention going through the recovery process twice) to get it softened a little now (and still have it be presentable both ways), and do the whole procedure again later to remove any hint of squareness.

The suggestions you read to do parts at a time, is it your understanding they mean for example rhinoplasty one time, and then maybe the forehead another time, etc? Or do you think they mean doing the same areas over and over again so the change is gradual from male to female?

[Katesback]

I have met people that have had multiple surgeries. Some of them looked like Michael Jackson. Others looked like something besides human. Made me wonder if they ever though of stopping surgeries.

One more tip. Get all that you want done in one surgery. The recovery is soo yucky that I could not possibly visualize wanting to go through it a second time. It was worse than SRS, BA, Lipo combined and I had the latter three done at the same time. LOL.

Katie

[Aprilrain]

do you think they mean doing the same areas over and over again so the change is gradual from male to female?

This sounds like the worst form of torture ever imagined!

How often do you want to look like this?????

[Katesback]

Omg I remember that. It sends shivers down my spine. The strange thing is the revovery was not so much painful as it was long, drawn out, inconvienient, and damm nasty. Took over a year for my head to stop feeling numb is areas. Took well over a year for the swelling to go away. It was just a pain in the butt.

Katie

[Kristy_K]

177122

That was just after one of the two surgery's. My face looks good in this one because about 24 hrs. after that picture I couldn't hardly see for a few days.

This is after the 2nd. about two weeks later.
I was hoping to get them done both at the same time but my age kept the doctors from doing them all at once

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/attach/jpg.gif

[NCAmazon]

I know it doesn't look like a vacation, but some say the pain is not that bad and others say it was torture so I guess its YMMV type situation. I know a Rhinoplasty is something thats really common that men and women get all the time. Spiegel can give it a feminine shape he said. As for the other work that seems to be where a overhaul occurs.

I'll risk paying more to take my time with how I want to look. So can anyone say that the there was discomfort but not pain to the point of screaming?

[Kristy_K]

After two days in the hospital I had very little pain after wards. But that was only if you didn't touch it or hit it. One month later my nose is still very tender.

Kristy

[Aprilrain]

Yeah, like the others said it's not the pain so much but look at our pictures, does that look comfy? LOL. Bruising swelling and the ground beef they turn the inside of your mouth into take a long time to heal. my mouth still isn't 100%, my nose is tender and my cheeks hurt when I smile, laugh or cry. Each to her own, I just wanted to get it all over with at once. Besides I'd been full time for 6 months at that point with no intentions of going back.

@ Kaitlyn, I touched my left eye brow and the top of my head started tingling so I touched the right and it did the same. It itches, and tingles a lot and there are spots near my scar where it feels as though a bug is crawling through my hair! LOL.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you know what? you are negotiating with yourself..its apparent you know the answer you want...

yes, its fine, its no biggie...it barely hurts, and is only slightly uncomfortable...all you need is a quick phone call and you have all the info you need...

the surgery always works and you can do it over and over with no ill effects... you can easily go back and forth from male to female with no problems...ever...

it heals very quickly and no one will notice...

so now, all you gotta do is write a check and get it done.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I can't believe all of you trying to imply that there is any pain or slow recovery involved with FFS.

Getting FFS is a "breeze!" Period! Nothing more to say!

Well, except that it is a "breeze" you feel while you are standing naked on a piece of ice on the North Pole during dead winter, and two Polar Bears have jumped onto your ice and they have not eaten in two weeks and on the other side of the ice, is pack of Killer Whales breaking pieces of ice off and getting closer with every frozen breath you take. Either way it's going to hurt like nothing you have experience before. Get the picture?

[Michelle.M]

Getting FFS is a "breeze!" Period! Nothing more to say!

Well, except that it is a "breeze" you feel while you are standing naked on a piece of ice on the North Pole during dead winter, and two Polar Bears have jumped onto your ice and they have not eaten in two weeks and on the other side of the ice, is pack of Killer Whales breaking pieces of ice off and getting closer with every frozen breath you take. Either way it's going to hurt like nothing you have experience before. Get the picture?

Jeez, I am going under the knife (and the bone grinder and the lipo hose) next Thursday! I have already committed myself to the after surgery pain. But still, this thread is really hitting close to home! :)

[Kristy_K]

Michelle, it does look worst than what it is in some ways. But the results was well worth the pain for me.

MY FFS gave me the start to a brand new life. Life has not been the same for me since I had mine.

A speedy recovery to you Mellisa. And Happy Birthday to you.

Kristy

[Stephenie S]

For those still numb or tingling with sensation in strange places, after months of recovery, take heart. It can take YEARS for FFS to resolve. But it will.

Stephie

[Kristy_K]

I was wondering about the healing time Stephie. Thank you for the information. At least that it is something to look forward to.

Kristy

[Anna Lorree]

None of those pictures look fun. I have had 2 facial surgeries, one in my lower jaw and one in my sinuses (neither were TG-related). My most recent was a year ago next month, so I remember very well the pain and discomfort of bruising, incisions, and healing bone. It is not fun, but you did it for a very good reason.

Anna

[Stephenie S]

Interesting, most resources say to get parts done at a time and get the minimum necessary. I was gonna do a rhinoplasty anyway, So if I get it and some forehead work to soften a bit I was told by the doctor that it would allow me to present as both well. But of course some makeup and other accessories will still be needed to present as female.

I've read of TS women who have had over 15 face operations!!

I don't think it will make a look too non male unless you add Eye work, Cheek and Jaw work as well. The Jaw and mouth work are what concern me the most so I wasn't looking at that right now.

I am not sure what resources you are consulting about the advice to get facial work done only a bit at a time. Perhaps you misunderstood? Just ask on this forum. You should get several responses, NONE of which will tell you to get FFS done piecemeal. The pain and discomfort involved are not things you will want to repeat, especially when you get bone work done.

And for goodness sake, why? If your intent is to present as female why ever would you want to do it only a bit at a time?

Please consider getting all you can afford done at the same time. Hey, ask Spiegel.

S

[ReineD]

And for goodness sake, why? If your intent is to present as female why ever would you want to do it only a bit at a time?

Reading NCAmazon's post a little more closely (and I hope you dont mind, NC, if I interject), it appears as if NC isn't quite ready to present fully as female but instead wants to be more passable when she does present female, at least until NC figures out how far she wants to take this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, NC, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I know this may not mesh with a TS's goal to transition to full time and stealth-like appearance (once the TS has made the decision this is what she wants, which can take years for some), plus this is the TS section. But, lacking a section for people who do want to commit to a "less male" appearance while they work through figuring out what gender they are, certainly it is up to NC to choose what she will do with her appearance? I know we've had people come into this section wanting breasts but who still wish to present in guy mode and this is not advisable because it is difficult to hide breasts in guy mode. But, I can picture someone wanting a less square forehead and chin or a more aquiline nose, depending on the degree of "maleness" of their natural physiognomy, since there are men who do have these features already and such changes would not look out of place. For an example, scroll to the bottom of the page and see the more attractive of the two male faces. The male on the left would look much more passable with wig and makeup than would the male on the right.

http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_II/Psychologie/Psy_II/beautycheck/english/prototypen/prototypen.htm

I've mentioned this before in other threads mostly in the M2F section, but I think we all need to recognize a third general category of people who frequent this forum, in addition to TSs and CDs, and this would be TSQs (TS Questioning). I imagine this phase can be of rather long duration especially among late onset TSs, or among people who haven't figured out they are truly a mix of genders rather than purely one or the other.

I suppose everyone goes through this at their own rate and there's no doubt it is complicated for many people.

[NCAmazon]

ReineD has the right idea, I was looking to test the waters in improving my female appearance. If I get rhinoplasty and find that is enough I can be ok before I take next steps.

But those who responded that it is a painful process have first hand experience with it. I was thinking do the upper part of the face first, then decide later on the lower part of the face.

I see how doing it more than once can be rough. But if you get the full service and then later don't like it , its hard to change. But a nose is something that can look good when its feminized no matter what. But looking at the photos it looks like its scary!!!

But these businessmen doctors have a market of offering surgeries to CDs and Part time girls. So thats what I was looking at.

So from what I read it seems jaw, mouth and cheek work seem to cause the most pain!???

Spiegel has a reputation so if I'm gonna take a risk he may be the one to go with.

[Stephenie S]

Well Reine, this may be a bit easier for you to say as one who is very unlikely to ever need facial surgery. And if you do ever decide to have facial surgery, it will be soft tissue work such as a face lift.

But transwomen face (pun not intended) a surgery that is far more serious and far more invasive. Bone work on the jaw, cheek, and forehead is serious stuff. Until you have felt brow work post-op you may have not felt real pain. I understand you are a natal women and a mother. I cannot minimize the experience of giving birth. I have nursed women post post partum and post FFS. It's not quite the same sort of discomfort. There is no question but that facial surgery can be uncomfortable. And the discomfort can last a long time.

My advice was to NOT get facial work done piecemeal. It's good advice. I stand by it.

Yes, there may need to be allowances made for those who don't know what they want. But in my experience, that's what therapy is for. Therapy is to help you decide just what it is you do want. My advice to those who have not decided what they want would be to do nothing.

S

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's definitely doable, and its not a dumb idea...its a risky and expensive tho...and its one of those things where if you are not transitioning, the risk/reward is totally different...its a higher risk proposition if you are going for something less than a female face.

the whole science of ffs is about instantaneous identification..so surgeons are well versed with us to make our faces mathematically "female"...its not simple or easy, but its straightforward and methodical.. if you ask to be more feminine and not "female", its a much more aesthetically challenging direction...your surgeon will do what you ask..but you may not like the answer...

Surgery to change your face is a HUGE HUGE HUGE deal that will impact your life forever that's all i'm really saying..

For the hereafter named TSQ's, please understand that so many of us are ex-TSQ's and we know way too much about how to fail...and its no fun watching the same thought processes play out over and over..

[Anna Lorree]

Well Reine, this may be a bit easier for you to say as one who is very unlikely to ever need facial surgery. And if you do ever decide to have facial surgery, it will be soft tissue work such as a face lift.

But transwomen face (pun not intended) a surgery that is far more serious and far more invasive. Bone work on the jaw, cheek, and forehead is serious stuff. Until you have felt brow work post-op you may have not felt real pain. I understand you are a natal women and a mother. I cannot minimize the experience of giving birth. I have nursed women post post partum and post FFS. It's not quite the same sort of discomfort. There is no question but that facial surgery can be uncomfortable. And the discomfort can last a long time.

My advice was to NOT get facial work done piecemeal. It's good advice. I stand by it.

Yes, there may need to be allowances made for those who don't know what they want. But in my experience, that's what therapy is for. Therapy is to help you decide just what it is you do want. My advice to those who have not decided what they want would be to do nothing.

S

I have had two facial surgeries in the past. Both involved bone work, neither was gender related. The first was on my lower jaw, the second was to repair a deviated septum (cartilage and soft tissue) and to widen and clear out my sinuses (both my lower facial and the upper facial sinuses, which go right up around the orbits) and involved both soft tissue and bone removal. These operations were done over a decade apart, so I have been through that wonderful recovery process twice. Personally, if I were to elect to have FFS, I would get it all done at once in order to pay less for the travel, surgery suite, anesthesia and the surgeon. Also, you cut down the amount of sick time use, or work time lost, and simply have to go through fewer instances of recovery.

That said, I can see where Reine is coming from. I am in that group of people questioning their transsexuality, and it is taking some time to work out. I still am not sure where I will land, I just know that something has to change for me to feel OK. I could envision getting some work done right now (I have no plans, just desires at this point), but full facial reconstruction wouldn't work for me at this point. Ultimately, FFS is alot like being TG/TS, it is different for everybody and should be custom tailored to the wants and needs of the person having it done. All that really matters to me is that people face reality and make informed decisions. That said, your last sentence is good advice, as well.

Anna

[ReineD]

Well Reine, this may be a bit easier for you to say as one who is very unlikely to ever need facial surgery. And if you do ever decide to have facial surgery, it will be soft tissue work such as a face lift ... My advice was to NOT get facial work done piecemeal. It's good advice. I stand by it.

Just to clarify, at first I took it that NC's aim was to slowly (through a series of steps), transform her more male features to female. I asked NC pointed questions to see if this is what NC was thinking.

And then it occurred to me that for now, NC might just want some features softened, without immediate plans to go further.

I do agree if the ultimate goal is to not pass as a guy at all, then it would be silly to go through 2 or three passes of chin reconstruction for example, whittling a bit off at a time.

As for my own plastic surgery .... if I had unlimited $$$ I'd consider it (nip and tuck to tighten my jaw line, take care of eye circles and hooded eyelids, maybe a botox shot or two in the brow and around the mouth), in order to match my exterior to the age I feel I am inside. But, I'm afraid this is not in the cards so I guess I'll just have to grow old gracefully. Ugh. :p

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I am all about pragmatic self interest..
ffs is not reserved for people that transition..its a free world..

I have read your posts NC...i am responding with them in mind..
and nothing wrong with wanting to look better...

Here's what i know.. people that start questioning their gender and at the very beginning start planning out ffs are grabbing at the wrong end of the stick..

[NCAmazon]

I am all about pragmatic self interest..
ffs is not reserved for people that transition..its a free world..

I have read your posts NC...i am responding with them in mind..
and nothing wrong with wanting to look better...

Here's what i know.. people that start questioning their gender and at the very beginning start planning out ffs are grabbing at the wrong end of the stick..

You have a valid point to question. I got my ideas from Drag Queens I met who present as men the majority of the time, but for their show career go as far as getting partial ffs and even breast augmentation. Seems extreme but they do it a lot.

Also there must be a potential audience if these FFS surgeons are offering procedures to CDs and Partial T girls. Made me interested in what they are offering.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I hear you... If you are looking to be a drag queen, thats totally cool..
you don't need to justify your wishes to me or anyone else... i think in general people have shared the risks and rewards, and you get to decide what's next for you..

the idea that the procedure exists, and that its marketed broadly doesn't make it a better or worse idea for YOU...
there is also a market for injecting silicone in your butt in a hotel room, does that mean its good for you?

[NCAmazon]

I hear you... If you are looking to be a drag queen, thats totally cool..
you don't need to justify your wishes to me or anyone else... i think in general people have shared the risks and rewards, and you get to decide what's next for you..

the idea that the procedure exists, and that its marketed broadly doesn't make it a better or worse idea for YOU...
there is also a market for injecting silicone in your butt in a hotel room, does that mean its good for you?

I've seen that before, home depot silicone injected to poor unsuspecting eager TSers. But you've been through the pain of FFS so I'm taking everyones advice here seriously. I was just surprised how the reputable doctors acted like the FFS process was a piece of cake when talking to them on the phone!!

[Badtranny]

I was just surprised how the reputable doctors acted like the FFS process was a piece of cake when talking to them on the phone!!

Well I guess as surgery goes, it can get pretty run of the mill for the people who do it but what we're talking about is the pain for you. Kaitlyn and the others are just a little surprised at the piecemeal aspect of your goals because once you do it, it's not likely that you'll ever want to go through that again. Of course you could say that bundling several procedures together was the real problem and perhaps a more relaxed approach would have been better. The only way I know is what I did and I hope I'm satisfied because I'm not looking forward to any more facial work.

Having said that, I had some lipo done in 2010 and that was an awful recovery and I swore I would never do that again, yet I did it again just a couple of days ago.

The technology is available to anyone and I think people should be free to do whatever they like for whatever reasons, I only wish people would be more open about who they are whoever that may be.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I am being sincere even if i seem preachy..

i guess reading melissa's post, what i'm trying to tell you nc is that i'm strongly advocating you deal with the reality of your situation FIRST...think through your inner self, get honest and tough with your inner dialogue...
accept yourself fully for whatever you are...and THEN plan out the life changing stuff like surgery...

this is the long way..go out, get read, get started at, see what happens..do things and meet people that share your situation...see what happens...

if you do it the other way around, it would only be through sheer luck that you get a good outcome..

[ReineD]

what i'm trying to tell you nc is that i'm strongly advocating you deal with the reality of your situation FIRST...think through your inner self, get honest and tough with your inner dialogue...
accept yourself fully for whatever you are ... and THEN plan out the life changing stuff like surgery...

I couldn't agree more, and Kaitlyn hope you don't mind that I bolded what I feel is key. :hugs: