Getting read by an 'Expert'

[Bree Wagner]

On Monday I had the day off work and had the chance to dress up. So, I went out to get a new wig (which I'm very happy with) and wore it out of the store before proceeding down the block to a Goodwill for a bit of shopping. I found a few nice tops and a Prada skirt in my size. It really made me wonder how much that skirt was originally sold for!

Anyways, I'm heading up to the checkout counter and there's one guy in line ahead of me finishing up. He writes something down on a scrap of paper and turns to hand it to me. He says "I used to work here, they do great makeovers." I said "Thanks" and put the note in my purse finished checking out and headed home. When I got a chance I looked up what the place was that he handed me the name and number to. It happened to be a Wig Studio/Concept Salon. On its website it specifically calls out Gender Identity Services. I kind of doubt this guy went around handing scraps of paper to everyone so it was pretty clear I'd been read. At least I can think that if he worked there a while he got the chance to see lots of people and be an 'expert' on noticing a few things. I really have no idea how I pass with the general public (unless I talk, then it's probably close to zero percent of the time) but clearly there are signs to be read. Oh well, not the end of the world and it was still a great day out.

-Bree

P.S. The place I was referred to is called Hana Designs. (http://hanadesigns.com/) Anyone ever been there in Denver?

[Voulez-Vous]

I think the bottom line here is - when you think you're passing - think again.
Very few of us pass 100% w/o question.

[ReineD]

Bree, I study physiognomy a lot. I love to draw and paint. I don't want to be mean or anything, but there are very few CDs who can pass fully as women, under close scrutiny. There are many subtle gender cues (brow, chin, face width, distance between various points on the face, neck width, shoulder size, etc), outside of the more obvious gender cues such as hair length and style, the presence of breasts, and makeup. This is why many TSs who wish to live as women full time and not be read, opt for FFS on top of the effect of the feminizing hormones.

A GM might have a chance passing fully at all angles if he has a small stature, small hands and feet, small neck and shoulders, and is very young, and he doesn't have a classic male forehead or chin.

Still, most people do not look closely at passers-by, providing there is nothing in their peripheral view that raises flags, and judging by your avatar, you don't raise any. You look very nice. :)

[michelleddg]

Hey Bree, you nailed it...you were read by an expert with his finely-tuned antennae. Says nothing about how you sit with the general public. There's been much discussion in this forum about what to do when you think you've clocked somebody else. I would say your expert, having decided to establish contact with you, handled the situation with tact and finesse, and hopefully provided you with information you'll find useful and fun...Hugs, Michelle

[Barbara Ella]

as said, one bottom line is dont worry about passing.

The second bottom line (Iknow, two bottoms?) If you are confident, and have the great smile you do, and pleasant, those around you will be pleasant. I doubt he would have done the same for another crossdresser who was frowning and complaining. And from your avatar, I sense that you are a very pleasant person, and have very little problems with the public when you are dressed.

Did he look you in the eyes when talking? If he dropped his eyes, he was worried he might offend by an implication you really need a makeover (not likely). If he looked you straight and talked, he was complimenting you and speaking from a knowledge that you were an out and about person who does a little of everything.

i vote for the latter. Hope the skirt fits.

Barbara

[ColleenCD]

Hi Bree,

I've driven by this place many times, never with the opportunity to venture inside. They've been around for several years, and since your anonymous stranger provided this recommendation, it may be worth a call at least to find out if you want their services. But from your profile Bree, you look fantastic, and since your already out and about, your confidence is plenty strong. The tipster is certainly who he says he is, probably has seen more CD's in that Goodwill than students in school. But that doesn't mean you aren't pretty and passing when out. You be you.

Big hugs,

Colleen

[Chickhe]

It could be taken the wrong way,... I mean, most people would be offended if someone told them to go get a haircut... anyhow... maybe what he saw was someone who looked serious enough, but thought you could do better... I would not worry about the being read part...it takes one to know one basically.

[Julie Martin]

Bree, I study physiognomy a lot. I love to draw and paint. I don't want to be mean or anything, but there are very few CDs who can pass fully as women, under close scrutiny. There are many subtle gender cues (brow, chin, face width, distance between various points on the face, neck width, shoulder size, etc), outside of the more obvious gender cues such as hair length and style, the presence of breasts, and makeup. This is why many TSs who wish to live as women full time and not be read, opt for FFS on top of the effect of the feminizing hormones.

A GM might have a chance passing fully at all angles if he has a small stature, small hands and feet, small neck and shoulders, and is very young, and he doesn't have a classic male forehead or chin.

Still, most people do not look closely at passers-by, providing there is nothing in their peripheral view that raises flags, and judging by your avatar, you don't raise any. You look very nice. :)

For sure on all of the above! Bree, you look very good, but passing under CLOSE SCRUTINY except for those people described in ReineD's post is unlikely. Passing in brief casual contact can be done even if you're 6' tall if you mask as many male cues as possible by how you dress, have the mannerisms down, and possibly a female sounding voice if you speak with SA's in stores. If you pay careful attention to detail in your presentation and look like a woman at first glance, which you do, sometimes you'll pull it of, sometimes not, and we never really know for sure. My attitude is..it's all in my head. If they call me ma'am and interact with me as if I was a woman, I feel like one! They may or may not have read me, but the experience is the same! Have fun. You look great.

[Marleena]

Bree If I'm going to get read I prefer an expert as cool as you found (or found you). The teenage group of giggling female "experts" is not so much fun.:)

[Karren H]

I don't know.... Spin it what ever way that makes you feel good but to me that's kind of like a plastic surgeon's assistant coming up to you out of the blue and saying "I know someone who can fix that"??

[MandyGG]

Bree,

Since I am married to a CD and not one myself, it is hard to judge or comment on these posts. I always fear that you don't really want to hear what I have to say. So, usually, I just read and move on. However, there is something about YOU that always stands out in a positive light. You always come across as a genuinely beautiful person. Please do not take offense to someone offering help. I am sure he saw what we all see here, someone living life to the fullest with such a positive outlook and who almost down right GLOWS! I can almost guarantee that he was trying to be helpful, not hurtful.

[Sallee]

I agree it is hard to fool all the people all the time. If no one is paying close attention or cares it is a lot easier to fool them.

[marny]

It sounds to me like a very subtle nice gesture.

[Stephenie S]

I agree. What a nice way to offer some help.

S

[Cheryl T]

At least he was being helpful...he could have just made a rude comment and walked away.
I think it was a nice gesture.

But then again, I'm a bra cup half full kinda gal....LOL.

[paulinescotlandcd]

I just think that was simply a nice gesture, read or not.

[Violetgray]

Bree, I study physiognomy a lot. I love to draw and paint. I don't want to be mean or anything, but there are very few CDs who can pass fully as women, under close scrutiny.

I am OFFENDED! :eek: You stop being realistic right this instant!

[kimdl93]

It was a chance encounter, but it could yeild some real dividends. Any of us can benefit from expereineced help with our presentation. Hope you can give it a try!

[Angie G]

You look nice and girly in your avatar Bree. Maybe he did know what to look for.:hugs:
Angie

[Sarah Doepner]

Well I'm jealous! I rarely get out and have the chance to get read by experts or anyone.

[Lorileah]

I just spent 30 minutes in front of the mirror wondering exactly what gives me away. Wow, you mean when you see a 6'4" 190 pound 40 inch chest and even wider shoulders, no rear, you don't think he...I am sorry "she" is a passable CD? I am disillusioned at best and here I thought everyone thought I was with the final four women's basketball teams here in Denver.

It was I am sure an innocent gesture on his part, he evidently liked the job enough to send you there. You took it well but I know many more here would have burst into tears or a rage. I have not been to Hana's. No need, as I have the best makeover artists here in Denver at my beck and call (with 4 weeks advance notice ;)). There are probably many more but there are three major salons who do makeovers here. Each has a signature look. You have to decide what you like and then go there. Caveat, you get what you pay for so be aware of that. I have not talked to anyone who has used Hana, so I can't recommend nor dissuade you. You want to see make-up? Go to Coronation this weekend. The best (and worst) in Denver.

Wow Prada. I have to shop Goodwill more

[suchacutie]

It was a bit forward to take it upon himself to communicate in that way. Reine is so right when she talks about the male vs. female "clues" we send out from our presentations. If we flood those we meet with "female" clues, we "pass" at that point. The male clues are there and it's just a question of putting enough of the feminine clues out there that no one is sure enough about the masculine clues that are there as well.

Now, your "friend" had an advantage being in Goodwill. If you had been in Macy's there probably would not have been a note. I'm sure it was the Goodwill environment that pushed the "male" clues to the fore.

As everyone has said, confidence can push the feminine clues out there faster, but it takes a very strong set of feminine clues to make accept in all circumstances.

I also think you look terrific. We can all look better, so having more information about looking better is never bad :)

tina

[Linda Stockings]

Good afternoon, ladies,
I think I agree with most everyone here, especially that Bree looks fantastic. I sure wish I could still carry a look like that. I was thinking I would ask for opinions about the times that I have passed, and not passed, describe how I was dressed, my attitude, confidence level, etc., and see what you all might have to advise. But not today - got to get back to work. However, one short story where the joke was all on me. I had just started my job here (1989). Every morning I rode up the elevator with one of the female security guards. I'm 5'9", 150 pounds, been crossdressing since I was about age 5, I think. I had seen several CDers in my time (I think), and felt I could recognize them. Oh how I wish I had gone out more when I was young! I used to get mistaken for a girl when I was in guy mode! NUTS! Anyway, I thought I had this guard figured out to be a fairly pretty crossdresser. Each day, I would notice something that would convince me even more. I felt so much like a total jack*** when oneday I noticed beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was pregnant, and many of the women were throwing her a baby shower. My point? I think every one of these ladies on this forum is correct, almost 100%, almost 100% of the time. The other times? Well, it's kind of like passing when you're out dressed pretty, sometimes everything works great, but sometimes there may be something about how high your heels are that you wore to the mall...........or those supersheer stockings with those perfect sandals.......

[Paulette]

I believe that passing is so over rated and causes so many of the girls on this forum to stay at home. I always dress age appropriate and for the location(s) I will be going too. I might get noticed but no one has ever started screaming there a man dressed as a girl. If I pass at 10 feet great, and blend at 5 feet also great, anything closer I win some and lose some but still and all I am out in the public living life. I have been to many public gatherings concerts, festivals (not GLBT orientated) movie theaters and of course restaurants and clubs and have never had a problem or a negative experience. I always carry myself as a lady and as such get treated the same back. Someone offering their assistance is to be cherished not chastised.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

You look pretty darn good Bree, so take the compliment and run in those heels with it.

[ReineD]

I am OFFENDED! :eek: You stop being realistic right this instant!

LOL. :hugs:

...................

[Badtranny]

Passing is not overrated, it is a worthwhile goal but one that is nearly impossible for the part-timer to achieve.

Somewhere out there is a 40 year old guy who can shave his beard and rock your socks off with his passing skills, those people are one in a million. Your average CD is not thin enough, not graceful enough, not feminine enough, to pass within a hundred feet. I said AVERAGE so please don't pic nits, and I believe a few hours of scanning thousands of photos on this very forum will prove this. I know a 40ish CD who is a lovely person and incredibly polished. She's done with facial hair removal and she's done a few other things too and I think she passes just about as well as can be expected. Her wig is fantastic, her body language is unquestionably feminine and her voice is even totally acceptable. She goes out a LOT but she has not undergone any HRT and she is not full time so she qualifies as pretty much the top of the heap of CDs as far as I'm concerned, yet she still does not pass 100%. Nobody looks twice and nobody cares because she's polished and poised but her male body and features give her away if someone were to take a second look. She blends wonderfully, but it doesn't take long for the male cues to be noticed. She's a man after all and testosterone has done its damage.

What I'm saying is I can't imagine anyone doing a better job than she does, (Lord knows I can't) and if SHE can't pass as female up close, then that should tell you it's indeed nearly impossible with hormones and surgery. There is nothing wrong with trying as hard as you can, but don't let your effort devolve into delusion.

[Bree Wagner]

Thanks for all the interesting thoughts and takes on the situation. A few things from my perspective:

1) I'm under no illusions that I 'pass' any more than the quick glance test, I'm sure I have way too many giveaways that show up to someone looking for them. (The pics I post are usually the 'best of the best' considering my cheapo camera has a great feature that lets it take any number of shots after the timer goes off.)
2) #1 being said, now that I've started going out I won't let the reads stop me. :) I'm having too much fun even if I am still very nervous at times.
3) I'll try to be friendly and smile to anyone as long as they aren't rude to me.
4) I didn't take offense from what he did. I assume it was either he was genuinely trying to help or that he was drumming up business for a place he enjoyed working at. Either way, no big deal, and it was done discreetly.

Anyways, thanks again for all the great comments and especially the compliments on my looks. Not much feels better than having your ego boosted! However, my wife would tell you all that my ego is far too large as is. :heehee:

All the best,
Bree

[Melissa Rose]

Bree, IMHO the gentleman was tactful and discrete and had good intentions so not taking offense or not being embarrassed or discouraged is the right way to go. That is a great attitude to have.

I agree with the previous comments that it is rare for a part-time CD to "pass" 100% of the time and in every situation. You can fool some of the people, some of the time, but...... As for passing being over rated, I'm in the middle on that one. I would twist that into saying passing 100% of the time is over rated. Expecting to be 100% passable in every case is not realistic for 99%+ of part time CDs. The fear of not passing is real and understandable, but it can also be used as an excuse to never go out. For most, it is easier to go out among the masses when you feel you are not as easily read. It is part of building your confidence and attitude which when present makes it less likely to be read. Passing, or more importantly your sense of passing, is important since it may influence your ability to go out into public and your comfort level. How well you have to "pass" before venturing out is a personal decision and measurement. How you react when you get read is also up to you.

Above, I used "pass" in the more generally accepted manner; however, I use the term "pass" in a different way than most. For me, passing is nothing more than not getting read with a quick glance. It is the short time (i.e., lack of attention) and distance that makes passing possible. A minimum standard was met which is another way of saying you were not obviously a man dressed as a woman upon a quick look and some distance. "Blending" is the next stage which is not getting read upon longer observation and with moderate proximity. This would be like observing someone two or three tables away at a restaurant for a few minutes. It is secondary clues such as some physical features, overt mannerism and sometimes attire that makes a CD fail to blend in. IMHO, it is a lack of convincing blending that gets most CDs thoroughly read upon observation. Only a few CDs I know blend in well enough not to get read or, at a minimum, arouse suspicion. "Presenting" is the final and most difficult stage. This is where there is close proximity and personal interaction with others in mainstream venues and events. Secondary clues become even more scrutinized and important. Vocal patterns, thought processes, behavioral patterns, less obvious mannerism, and other very refined details are all part of presenting. Presenting as a woman is very rare for a part-time CD and many post-op TSs I know also have difficulty or totally fail at presenting. Passing, blending and presenting is based on my opinion and observations over the past few years. It is my way of breaking down "passing" into more discrete and defined parts. Presenting as a woman is way more than dressing (looking like) as one. It is way more than wearing the clothes, shoes and makeup.

[Badtranny]

Presenting as a woman is very rare for a part-time CD and many post-op TSs I know also have difficulty or totally fail at presenting. Passing, blending and presenting is based on my opinion and observations over the past few years. It is my way of breaking down "passing" into more discrete and defined parts. Presenting as a woman is way more than dressing (looking like) as one. It is way more than wearing the clothes, shoes and makeup.

...and that settles that. ;-)

[Debglam]

I hang out with some REALLY passable (is that a word) sisters, so I've resigned myself to be the funny one. :battingeyelashes:

Melissa Hobbes, of the terrifyingly scary avatar, may be referring to who I am thinking of in particular. Anyway, for this middle pather, passing IS over-rated. Don't get me wrong, I would love to breeze into a room and have jaws drop at my feminine loveliness! I happen to live in what we call the "real world" however! :cry:

Six foot, broad shoulders, and no laser or electrolysis (yet), limited time and limited resources mean that I will NEVER be able to progress beyond a certain point. Don't get me wrong, I keep trying to improve, observing and learning from the GG's and drop dead pretty sisters I know. But. . .

Appearances aside, my voice is something I will only be able to take so far. I figure if I'm not read by appearance, I'll get read by my voice. If not by my voice then when I show my ID to make a purchase, etc. So what? The sky hasn't fallen yet.

For some brief, delicious periods of time I get to be the "woman" I want to be.

Go forth, be yourself, and have fun!

[Kristy_K]

Bree,

Since I am married to a CD and not one myself, it is hard to judge or comment on these posts. I always fear that you don't really want to hear what I have to say. So, usually, I just read and move on. However, there is something about YOU that always stands out in a positive light. You always come across as a genuinely beautiful person. Please do not take offense to someone offering help. I am sure he saw what we all see here, someone living life to the fullest with such a positive outlook and who almost down right GLOWS! I can almost guarantee that he was trying to be helpful, not hurtful.

I would totally agree Bree.

Kristy

[kimberly ann487]

He probably gets a bonus for every new customer he brings in, lol.

[Sophie_C]

Honestly, don't feel bad if an expert reads you. I can clock all trans girls, unless they fully transitioned before puberty, and were naturally way, way, petite, even beyond that. Like people say, it's a finely tuned antenna. But, as I've said before, unless you're going 1000% in on transition, don't put 'passing' as a realistic agenda. Every single day your body has testosterone coarse through your veins, the more masculine it makes your body, from head to toe. And, that is impossible to miss. So, just enjoy yourself, EMBRACE being a "tranny" and you'll have a fantastic time.