MTF tolerance: the final frontier.

[Marleena]

The general public has pretty much accepted lesbian, gay, bisexual, people but not without a struggle.

Now for MTF's it's still ongoing and doesn't matter if you're from CD to TS. People just have a hard time with the need to change sexual identities even if it's temporary. It just seems too hard for some of them to grasp. They don't get that we don't just decide to do it.

There has been some progress but it's slow going.

Sadly I have no answers on how to help change the attitudes of the public.

*edit*

Oh Wait! Maybe I do know a way. Dr. Oz recently had a show that dealt with TS transitioning. It helped educate people. Maybe this is the best and fastest way.

BTW everybody I'm not whining here but looking for ways to change perceptions quicker. We are the most misunderstood TG group left.

[Miriam-J]

There have been encouraging signs of greater acceptance, including the recent Dr. Oz (didn't see, but heard about it) and a few positive roles in TV shows. So far it seems to be at the curiosity level, similar to what I remember of references to gays in the 70s (remember Three's Company?). Based on those past trends, and assuming a continuing positive trend, we might see the same level of acceptance in two or three decades.

Of course, all that may also be predicated on the existence of a vocal, visible group. And it's unclear whether this would be acceptance of TSs, CDs, or both.

Miriam

[sissystephanie]

I guess where I live here in Georgia, U.S.A. the public is different. I go out in public almost every day dressed totally enfemme, but wearing no wig and using no makeup. In other words, I am a man in womans clothing. No one pays me any attention!! And I go almost everywhere that way. The one place I won't go dressed enfemme is to my Church since too many people know me very well, and have never seen me dressed enfemme!

I think a lot of the so called attitudes of the public are those that are really within the minds of the CD's who "perceive" them! Those and any others that are real probably cannot be changed in our lifetimes! We just have to live with it!!

[ArleneRaquel]

Marleena,
Some day our day will arrive, I pray that I'll be around to see it.

[Marleena]

@ Maryam and Stephanie I was editing my post when you posted.

The Dr Oz show definitely did raise awareness about TS ladies. I think that a celebity taking a stand for us would probably be the best way to speed up the process. Even if all the active members here went out and met people dressed for a week it would only have a small effect on people.

The problem is any celebrity that makes a stand for us would need to be ready for the fallout. I'm not so sure many would want that.

BTW everybody I'm not whining here but looking for ways to change perceptions quicker. We are the most misunderstood TG group left.

[ReineD]

Sadly I have no answers on how to help change the attitudes of the public.

Schools. We have to include a comprehensive education about gender and sexual non-conformity beginning in grade school. Kids have to grow up believing that people who are different than they are, are just as "normal".

[ArleneRaquel]

@ Maryam and Stephanie I was editing my post when you posted.

The Dr Oz show definitely did raise awareness about TS ladies. I think that a celebity taking a stand for us would probably be the best way to speed up the process. Even if all the active members here went out and met people dressed for a week it would only have a small effect on people.

The problem is any celebrity that makes a stand for us would need to be ready for the fallout. I'm not so sure many would want that.

BTW everybody I'm not whining here but looking for ways to change perceptions quicker. We are the most misunderstood TG group left.
Very true that we are the most misunderstood, I believe that nearly90% of the outside world believe that we are all homosexual, which is not true at all. I hope education will help. Too many Americans are stuck in their beliefs no matter what the evidence shows.

[NathalieX66]

Marleena,
None of us are truly going to know the experience of the spectrum of discrimination/ridicule/tolerance/acceptance/embracement untill we truly get out there and find out for ourselves. The public also needs to learn and experience us. That's how you erode away transphobia....by demonstrating to people that you are not a threat.

I took a road trip to Atlanta for Southern Comfort Conference in Atlanta last september, and one of my fondest stories of the trip was stopping in Washington, D.C. with my friend Abigail ( a.k.a abigailcdnj on this forum), and taking pictures of us in front of the White House, where President Obama lives. I know you live in Canada, so maybe the Parliament buildings in Ottawa, or where Stephen Harper lives, is an equal comparison. The mere fact that we had more tourists take pictures of them then we asked them of us blew me away. I seriously don't know how much better things could be. This is one pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathalielandree/6190800554/in/photostream

We even stopped at Panera bread for lunch in Virginia, once we left D.C. , and crossed the Potomac river. Virginia is very conservative, arrogantly rich (the northern part, that is) but still Bible-belt Southern Baptist. Yes, Abigail & I got some strange looks. We didn't get taunted, insulted, or assaulted. People still treated us decently, although with suspicion. This is how you teach people.

My friend Abigail is, in fact, transitioning, and dealing with the challenges, particularly at home, wife & family. There are struggles. I have it easy because I am not transitioning....well, at least not anytime soon, as far as I know. But I do go everywhere out & about.
Maybe I have it good because I am not a large person, but I have been treated well in nearly every restaurant, store, mall, movie theatre, club, supermarket I've been too. Sometimes it's dealing with family members that have/or had expectations of you, and all the sudden you've shifted gears. That's the way it is with mine.

But over all, i'm not saying every situation is going to go well. Maybe I've been lucky. maybe someday I will not be so lucky. it helps to develop thick skin if we intend on making this part known about us. (yeah, like thick skin helps us look more feminine :heehee:)

[Marleena]

@ Nathalie I get that. I'm going to Vegas enfemme soon for a few days.:)

I'm looking for answers to fast track this though. We are getting some good answers here.:)

[sarahcrossed]

Very true that we are the most misunderstood, I believe that nearly90% of the outside world believe that we are all homosexual, which is not true at all. I hope education will help. Too many Americans are stuck in their beliefs no matter what the evidence shows.

there are schools in california that do educate in such a manor. i saw it on the fox news channel. though they being right wing cast a negative light on it.

[ArleneRaquel]

sarah,
I hope education wins this battle between facts and preconceived notions. Hugs

[JessHaust]

I think things like the Dr. Oz show goes a long way toward educating the general public about us, but unless they see us they will soon forget. Its like studing a language in school, its all fine and good, but if you dont use you will loose it. We have to be out there where people can see us, talk to us so they can understand that we are people just like them. BTW, four of us went to Scarborough Fare yesterday and had a wonderful time. We had several people ask if we dressed up just for the fare or did we do this all the time? I'm sure they noticed the attention to details, anyway we told them we did it all the time, and they were all very positive.
I know it will probably happen sometime, but I have yet to have any negitive reactions and I'm out en femme several times a week.

[busker]

I guess where I live here in Georgia, U.S.A. the public is different. I go out in public almost every day dressed totally enfemme, but wearing no wig and using no makeup. In other words, I am a man in womans clothing. No one pays me any attention!! And I go almost everywhere that way. The one place I won't go dressed enfemme is to my Church since too many people know me very well, and have never seen me dressed enfemme!

I think a lot of the so called attitudes of the public are those that are really within the minds of the CD's who "perceive" them! Those and any others that are real probably cannot be changed in our lifetimes! We just have to live with it!!

Stephanie, if I'm reading this right, what you are saying here is that people are not saying anything in other parts of town, but at your church, you are saying that people would NOT be accepting of your CDing. Is that correct? Not paying attention is not exactly acceptance? They are just not making comments to your face. It does make a difference in how readers here will interpret this.

[kellycan27]

@ Nathalie I get that. I'm going to Vegas enfemme soon for a few days.:)

I'm looking for answers to fast track this though. We are getting some good answers here.:)

You'll be ok in Las Vegas. I was born and raised there. You'll be the least of surprises lol

[busker]

I think things like the Dr. Oz show goes a long way toward educating the general public about us, but unless they see us they will soon forget. Its like studing a language in school, its all fine and good, but if you dont use you will loose it. We have to be out there where people can see us, talk to us so they can understand that we are people just like them. BTW, four of us went to Scarborough Fare yesterday and had a wonderful time. We had several people ask if we dressed up just for the fare or did we do this all the time? I'm sure they noticed the attention to details, anyway we told them we did it all the time, and they were all very positive.
I know it will probably happen sometime, but I have yet to have any negitive reactions and I'm out en femme several times a week.

Jess, this is an interesting point because thread after thread about what to do if you see a CD is DON'T talk to them, they may not want to be "clocked" even by another CDer. So are you saying it's OK for the other public to speak and identify a CDer? We have a lot of mixed notions on the forum. If what you say is the way to get CDers accepted in the general population, then we need to re-educated some folks here on CD.com I susepct like a lot of things, if there are small groups that are noticed, such as your group, things seem to go OK, but if one took a national poll, I doubt that you would hear the same message. some places accept gay marriage, but when then national polls come out, there is a very large population against it. It is just really hard to figure out how people think about things that are not in the box, so to speak.

[Jacqueline Winona]

It's all about education, teach them they have nothing to fear and the acceptance (tolerance is probably the better word) will follow. It's never going to be 100% acceptance by everyone, but education, especially if done with humor and is tastefull, works the best.

[busker]

Schools. We have to include a comprehensive education about gender and sexual non-conformity beginning in grade school. Kids have to grow up believing that people who are different than they are, are just as "normal".

Reine, if I could press the 2 thumbs up button on your comment , I would. The problem in many school districts is that the parents seem to be the ones in charge of deciding what their children will learn, and many do not want their children learning about sex or gender variations. Parents seem to be the poorest teachers when it comes to sex education (so I understand) and so what we need are some national guidelines about what should be included as a basic framework. Unlike Europe where education is more uniform, we have such a disparity here that it seems almost impossible to even think about including gender variations in sex education.

[ReineD]

I know this, Busker. :) But, we've managed to teach them about evolution! And I dare say that climate change and its causes are even beginning to worm their way into the curriculum.

We teach them about STDs and birth control, why can't we also include a section on transgender, intersex, how they are or are not related, what percentage of people it affects, the difference between same-sex & opposite sex attraction and how this relates to IS & TG. We have the material to teach it at the college level, why not simplify it a bit for grade school, just like we did for algebra generations ago? :D

[AllieSF]

I will second the recommendation that being out and about in the general public interacting with anyone and everyone as we would do in our birth mode is good for us. I say it that way because we also have FtM's here and they are part of our family too. However, if one is not ready to go out, I am totally against peer pressure from anyone that someone else should go out and that the stated reasons why some stays at home are BS. But that is only part of it. We are fortunate to be able to hang on to the coat strings of those who have gone ahead of us and we should also respect and nurture that connection to our LGBT brethren.

As for the education as Reine mentioned, I also agree. Sarahcrossed mentioned what is happening in California. Tied with that thought is the need for internal support of our own group here. When it was announced in a thread here, last year I think, that California was going to require some type of LGBT education in schools, there were several of our members who were strongly against that. Some of them even said that they preferred that we all remain in our closets and if we did go out use, for MtF's, the men's restrooms when in many States it is legal to use the restroom of the gender that you are presenting. We send ourselves conflicting messages all the time.

It all takes a multi-front approach where everyone does what they can, from going out, supporting others who do, voting for issues and candidates that can help our cause, and accepting, or at least respecting, everyone''s right to be themselves as long as it is legal.

We have to learn to accept all of our members and let them be themselves. I truly believe, contrary to many here, that having as many as possible of us out there in our many presentations, with or without beards, dressed age appropriate or not, et al, can only bring all of us positive benefits. The lack of education of the general public about transgenders (CD's to TS's) can only improve when the general public starts seeing more of us in real life, in all of our various shapes and forms. Part of the education needed is that we really do exist in much larger numbers than they could ever know. More mentions and depictions of us in movies, sitcoms, news and magazine articles, comedies, whatever, will over the long run help people realize that we are here and are not going away. I believe in maximum exposure for all of us.

[ReineD]

When it was announced in a thread here, last year I think, that California was going to require some type of LGBT education in schools, there were several of our members who were strongly against that.

I remember that! :eek:

But in all fairness, we need to recognize that not every CDer here dresses for identity reasons. There are plenty of people for whom it is strictly sexual, and so in their minds the CDing is synonymous with sexual practices that we shouldn't teach our kids in grade school, any more than we'd teach them about BDSM. :p

[kimdl93]

...a lot of the so called attitudes of the public are those that are really within the minds of the CD's who "perceive" them! Those and any others that are real probably cannot be changed in our lifetimes! We just have to live with it!!

I agree with stephanie. Public attitudes change very slowly, if they ever change at all. Younger people do seem to be more accepting than their elders, which bodes well for the future. However, it may take a generation or two before that transition occurs. For those of us unlikely to be around for that glorious day, the ultimate change has to come within ourselves. In some sense, if we live in the closet we are the ones enforcing the social prejudices against us. If we go out and present ourselves with grace and dignity, we're helping overcome those prejudices.

[Katesback]

Ok so this is a brand new thread of a worn out subject that has been discussed 1000 times before.

First of all dont count on the TS women to represent ya. They are a small portion of the trans community and lets face it there is a big difference between a TS woman and a guy that likes to wear women's clothes. Considering many of you get all riled up when I suggest a lot of CDs are really TS and you say I am wrong then ok your dudes...........for now.

The largest part of the trans community are CDs and perhaps the day that CDs come out of the closest and into the world nothing special is going to happen. Sadly I dont see it happeninging anytime soon. Taken the recent "dress, masterbate, quickly put away the girls clothes and feel bad post". Or the one titled the "thrill of getting caught". Deep down many CDs feel thier behavior is disonant, deviant, and negative, in some capacity.

Katie

[Marleena]

Ok so this is a brand new thread of a worn out subject that has been discussed 1000 times before.

First of all dont count on the TS women to represent ya. They are a small portion of the trans community and lets face it there is a big difference between a TS woman and a guy that likes to wear women's clothes.
Katie

Actually they don't count on you TS ladies at all Kate. We all know a TS needs to live as a woman, so it's preaching to the choir. Just consider there are some some wonderful CD/TG girls out there opening doors for you (yes, for TS women too). Most of them dress to blend and represent the community well. We see them here on the board.

As for the sexual arousal aspect here, not a big deal either. Some so called straight hetro people enjoy porn and toys and who knows what else.:) Just pick your pleasure, Google it and there's something for everybody!

[Rogina B]

The schools are certainly the place to teach acceptance that will make the most rapid change in attitude. Some of the most progressive school systems in the Boston area are doing a fantastic job with it.On the contrary,as mentioned by others,the curiculum in other areas of the country will always be decided by the "thumpers", that only see the world their way.

[Marleena]

The schools are certainly the place to teach acceptance that will make the most rapid change in attitude. Some of the most progressive school systems in the Boston area are doing a fantastic job with it.On the contrary,as mentioned by others,the curiculum in other areas of the country will always be decided by the "thumpers", that only see the world their way.

Rogina the Canadian schools here are teaching kids about TG people and it is helping. I think it might be decided there on a state by state basis but that is encouraging.:)

[MandyGG]

I remember that! :eek:

But in all fairness, we need to recognize that not every CDer here dresses for identity reasons. There are plenty of people for whom it is strictly sexual, and so in their minds the CDing is synonymous with sexual practices that we shouldn't teach our kids in grade school, any more than we'd teach them about BDSM. :p

The general public sees it as a sexual perversion as well... so how are we to teach the general public, if our own group looks at it disgustingly?

[Kate Simmons]

Sometimes to really get in touch with our inner feelings, we have to more or less live the role. How others respond to that in interaction is largely dependent on how we act sometimes. Honestly, though, despite any media presentations, there will never be a "mass conversion" of society being accepting. We have to pretty much win people over one heart at a time.If we know who we are and where we are going it makes a huge difference in the overall picture.:)

[kimdl93]

A couple of additonal comments. People who engage in CDing for personal sexual gratification probably are not interested in public acceptance. My guess is that they would prefer to keep this private activity completely private. They're not responsible for the public's perception of CDrs as perverts...that's an image that has been conjured up by western society's Victorian sexual ideas (no matter how mis informed or hypocritical). It seems in Western culture, any behavior that deviates from the 'norm' was traditionally deemed "perverse". But the attitudes are changing - we can thank homosexuals for taking on these Victorian conceptions by coming out and challenging systemic, institutionalized bigotry.

I'm not convinced that the schools are the place to challenge biases against transgendered people. Not that curriculla might not be developed to address the variations in humanity. But, if you look at successful efforts to overcome bias and bigotry, its done by people willing to go out, speak out and, in some instances, litigate.

There has been some progress within the entertainment community. I'm thinking of Eddie Izzard, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Johnny Depp, Madonna, and Lady Gaga as examples individuals who have challenged gender stereotypes on one way or another. Or more recently, Daniel Craig and Charles Barkley...cross dressing...the former as a protest to violence against women, and the latter to promote a diet plan. Doesn't matter - all of these actions fracture that age old taboos and misconceptions.

And every time one of us interacts positively with other people, we're doing a little to help as well.

[Marleena]

There has been some progress within the entertainment community. I'm thinking of Eddie Izzard, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Johnny Depp, Madonna, and Lady Gaga as examples individuals who have challenged gender stereotypes on one way or another. Or more recently, Daniel Craig and Charles Barkley...cross dressing...the former as a protest to violence against women, and the latter to promote a diet plan. Doesn't matter - all of these actions fracture that age old taboos and misconceptions.

And every time one of us interacts positively with other people, we're doing a little to help as well.

I think the celebrities are the key here Kim as they can reach out to many people all at once. I'm also thinking private networks like PBS could be instrumental if they decided to jump on board.

[ReineD]

The general public sees it as a sexual perversion as well... so how are we to teach the general public, if our own group looks at it disgustingly?

The TG community is vast. Not every CDer does this strictly for sex. I was saying, it is likely those who do, who object to our children being taught about gender and sexual diversity in schools, since they associate the CDing strictly with sexual practices. Also, like Kimdl93 says, these CDers are not interested in going out and being accepted as feminine.

And how are we going to teach our kids about this? We simply take a scientific approach, focus on the points I mention in my post #18, and leave the sexual practices of the fetishists out of it. Besides, if someone dresses strictly for fetish or sex, they can hardly be considered transgender. Their gender identity is 100% male and really, a fetish is a fetish whether it is for women's clothing, latex, pony rides, or bondage. :p

Admittedly there are CDers who go through a sexual stage on their way to a more comprehensive self-actualization, but these are not people who are doomed to forever want to rip their clothes off immediately after they've satisfied themselves.


Considering many of you get all riled up when I suggest a lot of CDs are really TS and you say I am wrong then ok your dudes...........for now.

...

Deep down many CDs feel thier behavior is disonant, deviant, and negative, in some capacity.

:wall: Kate. Is there something inherently wrong with your ability to understand that gender is a spectrum, just as is sexuality?

Of course, it is difficult for any birth male to learn to accept a feminine side given the way males are socialized in our society and there will be feelings of shame associated with this. But, this disappears in time. And it doesn't mean these people will decide they need to transition or live full time in order to express their femininity.

[LaurenB]

I think the celebrities are the key here Kim as they can reach out to many people all at once. I'm also thinking private networks like PBS could be instrumental if they decided to jump on board.

I totally agree with the celebrity approach (obviously in concert with education about gender spectrums). A minute of celebrity face time is worth an hour of education (unfortunately). It's sort of quietly happening but gee wouldn't you love to hear someone like Steven Tyler do an interview and say "yeah - oh-yeeeeeahh as only he can do - I wear women's clothing, so what? You should try it. Whatever it makes me feel good to wear something that expresses on the outside what I feel on the inside. If you like it and you're not hurting anyone then do it".
Are there any celebrities on this board?

[JessHaust]

Schools are an important step. I found this link of Genderfun.com. It's about a TG in the UK somewhere going to their school prom en femme. It's worth watching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx17ZSdlOJw&feature=player_embedded

[Miriam-J]

The education approach is interesting, but I think we're likely to run into a lot of road blocks with anything that's explicitly about acceptance of transexuals or crossdressers. We'd likely do much better with a theme on acceptance of any variant that is harmless to others. Within this theme, some of the variants that can be pointed out include various sexual flavors (homo, hetero, ...) and various dressing choices (M2F, F2M, M2none or F2none [nudism]). Openness is a much easier sell than any specific variant. It'd be nice to include some of the other choices (e.g., swing, BDSM), but that would be an even tougher sell and probably not worth the risk in the first pass (sorry, Brandy).

As I've posted before, it annoys me a lot that many of those within any of these variants is quite unaccepting of those in other variants. Until we can open up, we have no right to request openness from others.

Miriam

[Soriya]

Education is the key, not just schools, all education. Celebrities, media outlets, general public all of it however the current problem with educating is the premise of how education is done today. Education in most forms today is taught with the idea that someone else's experiences are fact. This is taught in schools, religions, by parents, by most. Parents teach their kids, teach them 'what they know' thus from an early age, children are being programmed by their elders based off their elders experiences and in most cases, limit the ability for an individual to learn to critically thing for themselves and make their own conclusions. This is a core reason why society as a whole has a twisted view on many things. Take for example a billboard circulating around down here. It's from a well known beer company in association with the local NBA team. It has a picture of one of their beer bottles puring beer with the NBA teams logo and the caption in big bold letters says "Witness Greatness". Really???? Um, no, If I want to witness greatness, I will go over to the local ER on a Friday or Saturday night and watch the staff in there save someones life. That is greatness. This is just one small example of where societies priorities are.

As for CD's being and the TG spectrum being accepted, well, it will happen. It won't happen over night but it will. Today most leaders are older, from a different era thus the way of life is often stuck in the past but as time goes on and the more younger generation ages and they become leaders things will change. For us. Just be who you are and lead by example. People will shun you and some will accept you. Don't let anyone stop you from being you. :)

[Joanne f]

I think you have to take a look at what is the difference between all the other groups and a lot of CDs and one of the things that i think makes a difference is the fact that CDs try to hide who they are with make-up and wigs and i wonder if this in some way spooks the general public and make's them mistrust in what that person is really up to .

[Marleena]

I think you have to take a look at what is the difference between all the other groups and a lot of CDs and one of the things that i think makes a difference is the fact that CDs try to hide who they are with make-up and wigs and i wonder if this in some way spooks the general public and make's them mistrust in what that person is really up to .

That's a very good point Joanne! They don't get it's part of our being. That's why educating the public is so important about anybody who seems "different" (us).