Looking back...ignoring the data

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There have been alot of questioning posts lately...

i think this can be about breaking the ice, and folks that lurk here in the ts section, seeing some very good and courageous people sharing their story, and deciding to jump in with their story...anyway...

it made me think of all the signs i ignored over the years. Can you remember things you tucked away..for example, in my college years, i was a librarian.. i recall finding Jan Morris' book Conundrum...she was a pioneer transitioner...and i was literally obsessed with ONE passage about her getting in a cab and experiencing a guy calling her "luv" for the first time...in that moment to me, she was a woman...it wasn't about dressing, it wasn't about emulating...it was being to me...and i would go up and read that passage all the time!!! over and over!!! how strange...and it was especially strange because it didn't click with me that i was just like her...

I also recall in mid 90's i found lyn conway's ts women's success page and her ffs page... i became obsessed (and this is when i developed my debilitating (heh) internet addiction!!!) with those pages... i read and reread them... and i still didnt connect the dots!!! i figured i was just into transsexuals..duh!!!!!!!!...i started thinking of getting a nose job from these ffs surgeons...i viewed it as a CD fantasy... could i do it and nobody notice? how long would it take? could i pass better? etcetc...but never...I'm TS...btw...i noticed at the time there was broken link after broken link...the Kate rule demonstrated in full effect..so many of them wanted to be known, then didn't want to be known!!..

in the early 2000's i was making $$ and i traveled and dressed often...and i recall driving around by myself (which i did for almost 20yrs!) and i kept thinking of how I desperately wished i could talk to people, go to work "this way", i fantasized of renting an apartment and "living there" as a woman... AND STILL I DID NOT CONNECT THE DOTS!!!

anyway....it may help you if you are questioning to think back and try to mine those memories for "data" that can build your confidence that you are thinking straight...

[Andie Elisabeth]

Ok, when I'll be able to shut my wide open silenced mouth I'll write about my ignoring data.

[Stephanie-L]

I too have had a few Aha moments once I came to accept my trans-ness. The whole prefering girls company to boys at a young age, developing feminine hobbies and skills, again at a young age, total lack of intrest in most "boys" activities (sports, etc) and of course the early experimentation with crossdressing, all seem much more logical now.......Stephanie

[elizabethamy]

Thanks for this, Kaitlyn...it's hard to know what the dots are during that period when you're supposed to be connecting them but just can't seem to...in my world (academia) data rules, but so much data is bogus...that is, you can reconstruct a situation or a life and see the data points you want to see while ignoring other data points that might lead to different conclusions, or different causes...I'm not saying that to disagree with you. Certainly TS is not your regular tendency or trait, such as "all those times when I felt so wonderful in the woods as a kid, I didn't get it that I should be a forestry major." TS is much more serious, more powerful, more about who you are than speculation about various smaller roads not taken.

It all makes me wonder how many Jan Morris books and other related moments add up to certainty that one should have known of one's transgenderedness...taking those data points and weighing them against the rest -- the time spent at baseball games, the love of cars with big engines, the enjoyment of going out drinking with the guys....in a life lived as a male, there would have been many more macho data points than girly ones, even for someone who was heavily transgendered while not getting it about him/herself...

I remain confused, in a dress. Your friend,

elizabethamy

[Andie Elisabeth]

It all makes me wonder how many Jan Morris books and other related moments add up to certainty that one should have known of one's transgenderedness...taking those data points and weighing them against the rest -- the time spent at baseball games, the love of cars with big engines, the enjoyment of going out drinking with the guys....in a life lived as a male, there would have been many more macho data points than girly ones, even for someone who was heavily transgendered while not getting it about him/herself...

I remain confused, in a dress. Your friend,

elizabethamy

When you are weighting those moments you are the one who sets the importance. For example being a computer geek who learns to code would be considered to more masculine than feminine, look at all those hairy computer wizs, but almost no one knows that first programmer was woman, Ada Lovelace. The same stereotype is about someone who is good at math.

When it comes to cars with big engines there are two test drivers in Formula One this season who are women. There are no womes in NASCAR, Formula 2, Dakar rallye (I remember, I think, pink Toyota with two women aboard when it was still in Africa), DTM? How is this relevant? Watching Formula One was a nice tradition because I could be with my grandpa. These days he has bound himself to a ruin which he thinks he is keeping for us, his (grand)children, but no one wants it. And we told him.

There would be some macho moments in my life that were caused by the need to belong somewhere or not to get hurt by others or learned from others how to act as a guy. Did I enjoyed? It was better than to be completely alone.

Btw. when you see a man in a skirt is he a CD or Scottish?

Gee, I would be a great onna-bugeisha. I know more girls who practice(d) fencing than guys.

In the end the weights are important, dots just are.

I hope I didn't offend you, elizabethamy, if I did then I am sorry.

[elizabethamy]

not offended, so seldom offended. just a wee bit confused! It's true -- you select your own data points and you give them weight. I live by examples and some work better than others. Of course if one is going to present as one thing (male) then there would be many more male data points than female ones. for me the challenge is to know what i reallly want. then the rest would be relatively easy. yet i think the main confusion is how to separate "wants" and "desires" from what "is" your reality. That's where TS is of a different order than anything else. The path is there but it's hard to know where it is even if you might be walking on it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right Andie..

Eliz your comment about living in a forest and a forestry degree is an example of the type of thinking that gets us into trouble.

its fish to bicycles.. trying to compare your real gender identity to things you like, traits you have, things you care about, your physicality and anything else you "do" just doesn't work..and guess what, I STILL LOVE going out drinking with my old guy friends!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still love hockey games and horror movies (i even have a Devil's Rejects poster and lots of "guy stuff" in my study)..once i started living as a woman, the need to feminize my life was gone...i just am me
So I had the same ideas you do...they protected me at the time...now they just are things i like to do..

andie's comment about "dots just are" is my point... we look at those dots and refuse/can't/don't bother to connect them...

and i think eliz to be more specific on my OP, i didn't connect the dots AND THEN become certain... I didn't become certain until i lived a real life, and perhaps even after i got ffs and started blending in...
the gender dysphoria was eradicated...that's what the goal is ...

but now that I just am, i can look back , slap my palm to my forehead and say "what a dope!"...and that leads me to wonder if people that are trying to come to terms with this can think back and compare notes...

if I recall, your situation is more that you DIDN"T have these moments...your challenge is to figure out what that means to you based on what you know now (ie you are suffering gender dysphoria )

[Jorja]

Oh my goodness..... I should have wrote a book about Data Points. They were all there for years. I had to simply ingore them until I could get out on my own because nothing was going to happen at home.

Kaitlyn mentions Lyn Conway's ts women's success page. I was asked to be included in it. I refused because I did not want that kind of publicity at the time.

Another book by Jan Morris is Pleasures of a Tangled Life. Is a good read.

[elizabethamy]

Kaitlyn, you are right about my situation...looking back is something I'm doing a lot of as I try to figure out how I could have ignored so much for so long, or not known it, or what. ? I'm trying to retrace steps, find more data points in what so far is a fairly skimpy sample...roads not taken (forestry major) are so different from core identity issues. You don't become a TS because someone tells you at age 14 to try on a dress, but you might become a forestry major due to such an external influence.

How to know the self, what it is now and what it was always -- that's the question. I'm wondering if collecting these data points helps, or if it just reassures, the way that knowing you are a DES son reassures you that your gender anomalies are biological and not imagined. That is, helpful but ultimately not at the core of what one needs to do next. Forgive me if I'm not making sense. I feel the importance of this concept you've raised and can't quite get my cute little arms around it!

e.

[Inna]

As I recall the denial galore, it is all about the price!!! I remember at 7years old laying to bed and dreaming of a princess, a beautiful soft, sensual girl, experiencing the world through her own eyes, and then waking up to the realities of what is. And What was, seemed so strong and undeniable, that the dream had to remain a dream, despite yearning to be true. Then came adolescence, and day by day, poisoned by culture, church, family, peers and testosterone, I walked the path of deceit.

Finally, the realization, after I had experienced wealth, wisdom and experience of life that all I know and built until now is worth nothing without being TRUE SELF!

So came the crossroads, and choice of a price so painful and high that death seemed a better choice!

Despite my best effort, I had to pay that price, and now I am glad I did, but then I simply had no other choice besides the inevitable abyss.


So, as I have always been INNA, not always was I aware of her need to be in this world and throughout nearly all my life I had denied the freedom to be ME.

I suppose the question to all the transgender should rather be: "Can you afford to pay the price of freedom, because it will simply take everything you got and then some!"

[Laurie Ann]

How many of us ignored all the signs around us until the proverbial 2X4 hit us upside the head. I know I have tried to analyze to death why did I not see this before I finally acted, in hindsight it's crystal clear. I think for me it was fear of knowing the truth which held me back my whole life. I did all the usual guy things but it was to mostly hide to build that wall if you will between myself and the facts of life in the sixties. I married my soul mate hoping it would drive the feelings away but it did not so I buried my thoughts deeper thinking I was perverted and no one else was like me but that caused me to just become an angrier person which hurt all my relationships more data ignored. I finally hit a point where I knew I could no longer my life the way I was so it is data points we miss or fear until we finally need to be our true selves?

[ZosKiaCultusC7]

For the past several months, I have been searching for signs in my childhood. Sure, there are signs that I ignored during my adult life, such as "wanting to be her" rather than "wanting to be with her" and the thought of chromosome manipulation (biology class in college). There may be some signs pointing back to middle school (circa age 13) but I cannot say for certain because I don't know for certain. I dressed in makeup, nail polish, dresses, wigs etc. but it could have been associated with musical expression. This was also the period where depression was heavy but I don't know why I was so depressed. Teenage adolescence? Maybe. Confusion? Possible.

Anyway, younger childhood may in fact contain some data. The other day, I decided to go through some very old school stuff, since my mom kept a lot of it. As a young kid, I never was into sports and other stereotypical boyish things but I was always into video games. So, that's my logical answer for not being into sports; I was always into video games and technology. One thing that I found that actually does ring some bells is my favorite thing during preschool. We had a toy kitchen and well, it was my favorite thing to play with. Looking back, I can remember the colors, the design and even the texture. It's funny how the brain remembers certain things that occurred decades in the past, all it needs is a little jump start.

I also came across pictures from when I was younger. I now know how much of an influence my father's masculinity really had on me and how it may have caused me to ignore any feelings of feeling "different". Somewhat wide stance, arms slightly out, hands in fist-form: something not usual for a very young kid unless they picked it up from someone. This may not really be related and I may be grabbing straws here to find early signs but I can't help to wonder how things would have turned out if my father wasn't around.

[Empress Lainie]

Well this certainly rings a bell with me......72 years and I never had a clue! From elementary school, I never associated with the boys, only the girls, had no close male friends, only female ones; played with dolls with my sister. Didn't care for boys toys...so made my own architectural toys, paper houses and cities that my sister joined with me on. (Guess the engineering did come out early!) Remember at 7 wanting to be a girl, my mom said if you can kiss your elbow you can change, admitted she wanted to be a boy....yep, she had many masculine traits, and was never as girly as I am now; Also at 7, wore my sisters skirt, because Greek soldiers wore them, don't know where I picked that up, but I was a voracious reader even then; I think I had it on when my mother came home and if I remember correctly she asked me about it and I said I was playing Greek soldier, which was OK with her. BUT was that really why I wanted to wear it?

Then when I was about 14 my sister borrowed my pants without my permission so I just borrowed her dress and sat in the backyard eating watermelon in it. My friends came along and asked why I was wearing a dress and I told them. I enjoyed wearing it too.

Then for Halloween in the sixth grade I dressed as a girl and was soooo disappointed when the teacher "gypsy" who didn't know me said she knew I was really a boy. I enjoyed being a girl that day and night.

Even as an adult after I was married I never went anywhere with a group of male coworkers, and in fact pretty much left them alone. I sat with a pew of women when I was on jury duty and got teased about it by the bailiff. One of the women gave me her phone number, which I never used since I was married.

I only had one really close male friend that I felt was more like a brother, he died in his 50's. I never even thought about cross dressing.

Then one fine day, after weeks of flirting with Michelle and trying for a date; after a marriage, divorce (26 yrs), a 4yr near marriage (she died), several one week-ers, prior to that; Michelle invited me to meet her at a "meeting" she thought I would be interested in. I went and was called she for the first time, it was my tg group; I had my epiphany that night, transitioned to full time the next day; later became a leader in the group.

I later asked her how she "knew" and her response was; "I just knew; we seem to just know each other, and you will too."
She now has the official title of my liberator and I love her dearly.

But still I must wonder - WHY did I not know sooner? Well its water under the bridge; I'm living the life I should be that is near perfect (a million dollars, SRS would be nice!) I have a gg in love with me who I have known for 23 years; my tgirl girlfriend who also loves me and has lived with me for 5 years; and another 51 yr old gg who also loves me.

Why don't I have a boyfriend? Actually I like women better; all relations are platonic including the gg that lived with me on and off for 11 years, and is now a millionaire in Alaska with 2 young kids; besides, I'm 77 (ignore my age in profile) and the men would need to be in their 80's and 99% are either dead or dying. Oh yeah, I would like more demonstrative affection and even sex, but who knows, maybe it will come back. I really don't care anymore.

[Andie Elisabeth]

I closed my mouth and now I can write :)

When I started school, ok, first day I had a red bow tie, but overall I had pencil case with three pockets full of color pencils and things like that. I preferd company of girls. At that time it was popular among girls to collect stickers with pictures of horses. Guess what? I collected them too. Guys were into hockey player cards and pogs, I didn't understood why.

During second grade we had non optional swimming classes. I sucked. But later when (re)discovered my mom's and aunt's swimming medals I wanted to be like mom and earn my own. Screw dad's orienteering :heehee: In third grade I rocked but I didn't have the ambition.

In fourth grade I transfered into a swimming/ice hockey class and every single thing began to screw itself up. It was time when I had act masculine which I didn't know how. So I began building walls and rest to the outside world is history. And I asked myself why I wasn't in the regular classroom as was one girl who swam too.

On the inside I barely survived. But since 8th grade I had my bedroom always painted in purple, and I love it :D And I have never opened up until now.

And I forgot that during one trip while I was in third grade with youth organization (unisex scout or something like that) I learned how to make friendship bracelets, now I do them when I can't focus but need to meditate, and boys told afront that I will not sleep with them so I slept among girls, I even liked the small talk, until I was for the second night "reassigned".

I also forgot that before 8th grade I already knew that TS's bottom operation is performed by penile inversion. I know because my asked me in 7th grade. :heehee: When I was watching on TV, it was during afternoon, don't how it was possible, I wasn't disgusted at all.

EDIT: And I can go on and on.

[Anne Elizabeth]

I had also read somewhere where present day knowledge can go back and connect the dots or data points to make them become what you want them to. I myself have spent much time looking back and rethinking the past. Why did I do this or why did I feel this way and did doing this or that mean anything significant to me the or does it mean something now. I also think and rethink what my therapist told me about some of those thoughts. A normal young boy does not have thoughts about how one should have been a girl. A normal young boy (especially before puberty) would not want to dress as a girl or derive peace of mind by dressing as a girl. When I think of some of the data points for example; cinderella I would have rather been her than the prince, I wanted to dress as a girl for halloween instead of my brother, why did I wear panties in 4th grade sometimes? I spent most of my time being jealous of the girls because of the clothes, the actions, etc.
Yes I have to agree that the data points in our past can be twisted to match or justify our actions today. But statistics are just that, statistics. IE. if I had a sale last year and sold 1 banana split then this year during the same time frame sold 2 I could say sales were up 100 percent. Just like wanting to dress as a girl when young ( Yes sometimes it could be said it was for a joke or just for fun) But it is just not normal to really want to be person of the opposite sex. It is just not normal to feel more comfortable presenting as a woman than as a guy. It is just not normal leaving the house in a dress and wig to look your best as a woman when it is so much easier to just be a guy.
(you have to excuse the my use of the word normal, but in the crux of things generally, or normally a heterosexual male does not have a constant drag on their mind that they want to be a female) Where as I myself do and feel better about myself presenting as a female and a darn sight happier in life doing so.

[elizabethamy]

AnneElizabeth,

You make a terrific point. It's not "normal" to want to be of the other gender, at whatever age. It's not "normal" in general to buck seemingly harmless tendencies such as that of the women to gather in the kitchen while the men go outside at a family reunion. And, though one can debate how common it is, it's probably not normal as a child to have to will onself to seem and to appear male enough to fit in -- to hold one's books the right way, to walk the right way, to act "tough" enough. These traits come naturally, I would guess, to the nontransgendered child which is why they aren't ever talked about.

How much data is enough? What counts? The core, I think, of what you are saying is that how one wants to behave and be now, in adulthood, is the data that matters. Still, this has been a fascinating romp through childhood and young adulthood, stirring memories and illuminating the whole concept of when, how and why does one "know" one is transgendered...

elizabethamy

[Anna Lorree]

Finding the dots isn't the hard part. The dots, the hints, the clues, even quietly filed bits of knowledge are all there for me. I knew as a child that I wanted to do things my sister got to do, but I was not supposed to. By age 15, I knew with a definite certainty that I was supposed to be a girl. It hit me like a ton of bricks, and profoundly impacted me. A little while after that, I ended a day in tears after realizing I simply couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger of the shotgun I had in my mouth. After deciding to bury it, I knew it was always there. I would fight it down, then it would pop back up. My problem isn't knowing whether or not it is there, rather my problem is figuring out how I live honorably with the commitments I made between my realization in my teens and the start of my acceptance in my mid 30's.

Yesterday I was thinking to myself, and I called myself something I never had before. I called myself a latent transsexual. When I realized that, there wasn't a huge feeling of angst or humiliation or fear. It was more like a quiet acceptance, a resignation. Like I had drawn enough lines between enough dots that I am starting to really see the picture. Now I have to figure out what I am going to do about it.

Anna


to hold one's books the right way

If I don't have a book bag, I still clutch my books in front of my chest. I have always felt it right to carry them that way. Yet another dot, I guess...

Anna

[LeaP]

Constantly evaluating my context for proper behavior. If I'm not thinking, I walk into the ladies restroom, for example.



... as I did an hour ago at the dentist's office.

Lea

[ReineD]

It all makes me wonder how many Jan Morris books and other related moments add up to certainty that one should have known of one's transgenderedness...taking those data points and weighing them against the rest -- the time spent at baseball games, the love of cars with big engines, the enjoyment of going out drinking with the guys....in a life lived as a male, there would have been many more macho data points than girly ones, even for someone who was heavily transgendered while not getting it about him/herself...

I remain confused, in a dress.

I'm confused too. On occasion I've had wives ask me what is the difference between a CDer caught in a pink fog, and someone on their way to realizing they are TS, since many of the data points are the same. I don't know what to answer, since ultimately it boils down to how the individual feels about him/herself. No one can measure this.

I know men who are not into sports or any of the stereotypical guy things like drinking with buddies, ogling women, etc, and who feel comfortable talking about a variety of topics with both men and women. Yet as far as I can see, they are not trans. Does a preference for the gentler things in life and an ability to talk to women mean that someone is transsexual? Is this a meaningful data point?

Maybe it all boils down to always having known the male persona was a mask? Looking back and detecting GID from the very beginning, even if there was no name for it then?

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaitelyn, with this post you are putting a finger on something that I think is of enormous importance. Because this mining the data thing has it's own flip side as well and requires a very careful approach to the content of the data.

In fall of 2010 I wrote a piece about re-writing history because these issues you raise loomed large in my mind. It was all about being truthful in this process, if not to anyone else to yourself. I will not post this piece here but here is a link if you feel like reading it. Re-Writing History or The Art of Being True to Yourself (http://kathryn-martin.blogspot.ca/2010/12/re-writing-history-or-art-of-being-true.html)


There have been alot of questioning posts lately...

i think this can be about breaking the ice, and folks that lurk here in the ts section, seeing some very good and courageous people sharing their story, and deciding to jump in with their story...anyway...

it made me think of all the signs i ignored over the years. Can you remember things you tucked away..for example, in my college years, i was a librarian.. i recall finding Jan Morris' book Conundrum...she was a pioneer transitioner...and i was literally obsessed with ONE passage about her getting in a cab and experiencing a guy calling her "luv" for the first time...in that moment to me, she was a woman...it wasn't about dressing, it wasn't about emulating...it was being to me...and i would go up and read that passage all the time!!! over and over!!! how strange...and it was especially strange because it didn't click with me that i was just like her...

I also recall in mid 90's i found lyn conway's ts women's success page and her ffs page... i became obsessed (and this is when i developed my debilitating (heh) internet addiction!!!) with those pages... i read and reread them... and i still didnt connect the dots!!! i figured i was just into transsexuals..duh!!!!!!!!...i started thinking of getting a nose job from these ffs surgeons...i viewed it as a CD fantasy... could i do it and nobody notice? how long would it take? could i pass better? etcetc...but never...I'm TS...btw...i noticed at the time there was broken link after broken link...the Kate rule demonstrated in full effect..so many of them wanted to be known, then didn't want to be known!!..

in the early 2000's i was making $$ and i traveled and dressed often...and i recall driving around by myself (which i did for almost 20yrs!) and i kept thinking of how I desperately wished i could talk to people, go to work "this way", i fantasized of renting an apartment and "living there" as a woman... AND STILL I DID NOT CONNECT THE DOTS!!!

anyway....it may help you if you are questioning to think back and try to mine those memories for "data" that can build your confidence that you are thinking straight...

[ReineD]

Thank you both Kathryn and Lea. Maybe it is as simple as tracing the dysphoria back to childhood, even when there were other moments of happiness (or gender free moments) during childhood. Maybe this is what I can suggest these wives ask their husbands.

Lea, what does looking at the world through female eyes mean? I'm not trying to be flippant but not having experienced two genders, I only know one way. I don't know how I would describe my way of looking at life compared to my brother's, even when we share similar histories.

[Jorja]

Lea, what does looking at the world through female eyes mean?

Is that like looking through rose colored glasses?

[elizabethamy]

I don't think I have yet crossed over to "being female," but ReineD's comment about masks really resonates with me. When I look back, I don't see evidence of wishing I was a girl, but I do see a lot of effort -- going all the way back and up to the present day -- to try to present myself as a normal male, one of the guys. Alwyas without ever thinking I might be female -- that never flashed through my mind -- but the sense that I was "acting" male, especially conventional macho-male, was there all the time. What an interesting thread. Sometimes I feel as if I'm going to graduate school by reading this forum. It -- you -- are amazing!

elizabethamy

[ReineD]

I can't explain that, either, but I just KNOW.

So could it be as simple as saying it is the difference between knowing and wishing?

This is the way I feel about my gender. I Know I am female. I do not wish to become, nor feel as if I might be, I just Know. It is an intrinsic knowledge, just the way it is described in the WPATH definitions.

Conversely, maybe TSs never really Know they are men?

[elizabethamy]

And this is all mixed in with personality types. Once Kaitlyn Michele said, "It all comes down to what you want." To which I replied that I am the kind of person who can go to pieces trying to decide what to order for lunch! Whereas there are others who are totally sure of themselves in every aspect and on every decision until they change their minds -- with equal sureness. When you apply those different types of personalities to the question: "Am I TS or not?" you get...I don't know. In my case, you get someone who's pretty confused.

elizabethamy

[Jonianne]

.......I can state with 100% certainty that I never identified as a man, and have been fully conscious of that throughout my life. I've never so much as used the term to apply to myself........And without a corresponding female identity, it led me for a long time to think I was androgynous TG.......

I never identified as a man either. I remember clearly around age 6, vowing to myself I would never be like the men in my life. And at age 8 I made a promise to stay 8 for the rest of my life, so that I would never grow up to be a man. And it wasn't because they were bad or hurting me. They were very good to me and very protective. I just did not and could not identify with men. As a child I did not consider being female, but I did choose to identify and role model after my mother and grandmother. That was just innate in my personality.

[Anne Elizabeth]

I'm confused too. On occasion I've had wives ask me what is the difference between a CDer caught in a pink fog, and someone on their way to realizing they are TS, since many of the data points are the same. I don't know what to answer, since ultimately it boils down to how the individual feels about him/herself. No one can measure this.

I know men who are not into sports or any of the stereotypical guy things like drinking with buddies, ogling women, etc, and who feel comfortable talking about a variety of topics with both men and women. Yet as far as I can see, they are not trans. Does a preference for the gentler things in life and an ability to talk to women mean that someone is transsexual? Is this a meaningful data point?

Maybe it all boils down to always having known the male persona was a mask? Looking back and detecting GID from the very beginning, even if there was no name for it then?

Reine:

I believe you last sentence is spot on. I myself fit plainly into the typical male stereotype, yet there were many times when doing the male thing I was always in thinking in the back of my mind darn I wish I were a female. I don't think you can say "I would rather play with the girls, do the girl thing, have dolls, converse with the women rather than the men." would make a person a TS or even a CD. What I can say is, if there is a feeling of being born in the wrong body, or would rather be a woman than a man, then I believe there is a GID and if that person can't reconcile living as the birth gender and be content then there is a need to live as the other either through CD'ing to full transition.

I used to say crossdressing helped me to relax. However, after a few years of very deep thought and reflecting I believe the reason I am relaxed is because I was presenting as my real self, I am taking the mask off and letting the real me through.

I hope that I have giving you my perspective and when you are talking to the wives(spouses) I truly believe that if what I have mentioned comes out then there spouse has GID and they may have a need to ease that GID with simple CD'ing or go the full way to changing there gender. The key is what has to happen in order for the person with GID to feel right and what can both partners live with.

I also would like to let you know that I really appreciate your knowledge and you posts. Many times what you have to comment is well written and well said and very thought provoking. It has helped both my wife and me to begin, fully, or try to understand ourselves. THANKS!

[arbon]

There was a lot of data, and it created a lot of confusion for most of my life. Through out childhood I struggled with it and into adulthood.

One thing that was kind of interesting that happened a year + ago, my wife ran into an old friend / roommate of mine from my early 20's. My wife was curious and asked her if she knew about some of the my issues when she lived with me, and my old roommate said to her "oh, you mean that he is gay and likes wear women's cloths?" I remember back then I was so messed up about it all, even went to psychiatrist, I really wanted help to figure out what was wrong with me. He did not help me with that issue, but he did help me get sober, but once sobered up and feeling like I was starting a new life I thought I could deal with it and got married. Shoved those feeling down and tried to pretend it was not me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Lots of interesting experiences to share!!! wow!!

ts true that looking back is through "xxx"-colored glasses... and it can be fluid too..

reading the responses, the overall memory that gets stoked is how I had figured out a way to "be a guy"...how i fit in by my wits and personality..which i matched to whatever group of guys i met...and perhaps i shared the not fitting problem with many guys that didnt fit in...but that's irrelevant to ts and tg people...they coped with their issues too..and i gravitated to outsiders because we shared that mindset

Reine your comment about genderless moments is spot on..

The incredibly deep feelings of emptiness and confusion around my MANY guy moments was a mystery to me...it was so bad that I drank and drugged my way into oblivion at most social events..which made me very popular with the guys..and it obliterated my gender right along with it....ANYTHING i could do to obliterate my gender ..i did it..

WE COPE with a horrible existential problem...from the moment we are little kids...thoughts in our head don't fit with our apparent lives...and we deal with it... using every weapon in our brain...
it's an example of how hard it is to figure yourself out, and how we contort our thoughts and our lives to fit in and try to experience an authentic life.....
it such a personal and solitary thing, we have no way as we are growing up to figure it out...i didn't talk to 12 yr olds or 20 yr olds or 30 yr olds and try to gauge whether they had the feeling that they were empty like i did...
So my coping thoughts became dogma... they were me...i had no way to know i was missing out on an authentic life, i never mentioned this to a soul for almost 40 years..

and i can see in what many people write here the same coping that i did...for them, that's data...it doesnt necessarily mean anything...its totally and completely your responsibility to figure that out,
you see the advice that you need to be "brutally honest with yourself"...This is an example of that means in practice...

[Rachel Smith]

The incredibly deep feelings of emptiness and confusion around my MANY guy moments was a mystery to me...it was so bad that I drank and drugged my way into oblivion at most social events..which made me very popular with the guys..and it obliterated my gender right along with it....ANYTHING i could do to obliterate my gender ..i did it..

WE COPE with a horrible existential problem...from the moment we are little kids...thoughts in our head don't fit with our apparent lives...and we deal with it... using every weapon in our brain...
it's an example of how hard it is to figure yourself out, and how we contort our thoughts and our lives to fit in and try to experience an authentic life.....
it such a personal and solitary thing, we have no way as we are growing up to figure it out...i didn't talk to 12 yr olds or 20 yr olds or 30 yr olds and try to gauge whether they had the feeling that they were empty like i did...
So my coping thoughts became dogma... they were me...i had no way to know i was missing out on an authentic life, i never mentioned this to a soul for almost 40 years..

I agree Kaitlyn as I to fell victim to the drinking and drugs. It was just a way to avoid the pain, sadness and emptiness. The drugs I gave up long ago as I was in the horse racing business and subject to a urine test at anytime but that just increased the drinking. Since coming to grips with what I was meant to be and being Rachel all the time except at work the drinking has even stopped. Not through a concious decision on my part I just don't feel the need anymore.

Who the hell could we talk to? There was NO one and that is one of the reasons this place is so nice to come to and be a part of. Just knowing I am not the ONLY one is quit liberating in itself. Yes my many guy accomplishments made me happy yet I was empty inside and it is that emptiness that eats at your soul like a cancer. You wonder why can't I just be happy it doesn't seem that difficult for everyone else.

I will never transition as there just are no funds for that but if I can just work on living my life as the woman I am I will be happy and no one can stop me from that.


Rachel

[ReineD]

Maybe it all boils down to always having known the male persona was a mask? Looking back and detecting GID from the very beginning, even if there was no name for it then?

I spoke to my SO this evening about this thread and she brought up an interesting point. There is no doubt that men's gender roles have been changing since the 70s & 80s, with more women entering the work force. More women are earning college degrees than men now. In many marriages today, the wife earns more money. Our blue collar/manufacturing jobs in the US have dissipated and men are out of work. In other marriages, it takes a dual income to live, and men share the childcare/household chores with their wives. Women have taken on a stronger voice in managing the family's finances. In some marriages it is the wife's work that determines the geographical transfer while the husband needs to follow and take a secondary job in their new location.

It's generally a confusing time for men, who see the gender gap narrowing, who perceive a decrease or a loss of their male privilege, and so many men may feel emasculated even if subconsciously. How would this affect a genetic male who has transgender predispositions? Would the lure of expressing femininity be stronger? This may be more true for CDers than TSs. I haven't read any papers or theories about this, it was just an idea that my SO brought up.

[CharleneT]

two short answers:

DeNial, a wide and deep river ;)

Hindsight: always 20/20 :battingeyelashes:

[Andie Elisabeth]

I spoke to my SO this evening about this thread and she brought up an interesting point. There is no doubt that men's gender roles have been changing since the 70s & 80s, with more women entering the work force. More women are earning college degrees than men now. In many marriages today, the wife earns more money. Our blue collar/manufacturing jobs in the US have dissipated and men are out of work. In other marriages, it takes a dual income to live, and men share the childcare/household chores with their wives. Women have taken on a stronger voice in managing the family's finances. In some marriages it is the wife's work that determines the geographical transfer while the husband needs to follow and take a secondary job in their new location.

It's generally a confusing time for men, who see the gender gap narrowing, who perceive a decrease or a loss of their male privilege, and so many men may feel emasculated even if subconsciously. How would this affect a genetic male who has transgender predispositions? Would the lure of expressing femininity be stronger? This may be more true for CDers than TSs. I haven't read any papers or theories about this, it was just an idea that my SO brought up.

So you have described my childhood :heehee: except for moving away. No woman in my close family is/was acting in a stereotypical feminine way. All of them, mom and both grandmas, are independent and strong. When we moved to place where we live now, except for dad who lives elsewhere, there were only two girls in same age group and both were tomboys, so to speak. Therefore I did not distinguished what is masculine and what is feminine, except girls did not have these http://pojdmesihrat.cz/images/37326_tatra_t815_nakladni_auto_73cm.3.jpg and did not participate ride downhill on those at that time, later there was one who did, but I was already at school and the car was too small for me get in :) the thrill was awesome

And when it comes to housework? I can cook, when I am not depressed and/or sick, do laundry, clean, iron shirts, etc. What is this gender gap anyway? But I don't feel like I am a guy. Is it because I lived in this enviroment or is because I was born that way? I don't know.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The ideas around things like changes to the male role, male privilege, gender gap and all the societal pressures around being male impact the way people cope with being transsexual...it can impact how you feel about yourself, but not who you are..

You start out TS, you are always TS...your internal identity is female...or you start out male (part male for TG's?)..its a very simple thought... but it doesn't do much to help you or your loved ones figure this out UNLESS and UNTIL you are totally and completely honest with yourself..

So many people say things like, "i always enjoyed talking to the girls"...but they don't take the next step and think about what it means...they say they love to do housework, or have other traits or habits that are traditionally female in nature...but there are tons of males in female roles..its especially true of people that say they want to wear femme clothes "all the time".....you have to get at what it means for all of these things....

to Reine's question, i'm sorry to say i really don't believe there is ONE answer to "how do I know" for the trans person or for the spouse.... if you want to have your best quality of life, its your own responsibility to dig deep and be honest..
it is simply on the cd or ts to be thoughtful and aware...

unfortunately because of all the hang-ups around males and females, its doubly difficult to do...and specifically with spouses its even harder because based on my experience. based on my experience, I truly believed i was male (a strange one, but male)
and I fully and truly love my wife.. but I blew it...i was not honest to myself , and i just didn't realize I loved her in a different way than men...as i've experienced transition and the end of marriage, today as her close friend and coparent, I "feel" exactly the same about our marraige...to me personally , i feel like nothing has changed except where i live...i'm just as devoted, we talk to each other the same way, we do the same things (plus some new things), it feels like it always did...

...it gets all mixed up with dressing because for dressers , its a behaviour that can be negotiated or not in every marriage...for the ts its a fundamental change to the nature of marriage itself..and for dressers there is always the next step hanging over the marraige, and for ts people its a do or die fully understood moment.... the saddest stories are folks that stayed together while the ts husband tries her level best to NOT transition, only to find that the dysphoria gets worse and worse, and BOTH partners realized they doubled down on a life that was unsustainable...perhaps reine that is your answer....until the DYSPHORIA hits, there is no way to know for you....and i mean literally no way....the mind is incredible, and in my group around my area, there are folks that denied it well into their 50's and 60's...its the dypshoria that forces your hand and forces you to be honest with yourself

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine:

I believe you last sentence is spot on. I myself fit plainly into the typical male stereotype, yet there were many times when doing the male thing I was always in thinking in the back of my mind darn I wish I were a female. I don't think you can say "I would rather play with the girls, do the girl thing, have dolls, converse with the women rather than the men." would make a person a TS or even a CD.

You are putting your finger on something. I actually do not believe that any of the examples that you have given have much of anything to do with whether a person is prone to cross dressing or is a transsexual. As I touched on earlier in this thread, looking back we tend to give more weight to these incidents than maybe should be given. There is a clear distinction between a feminine man and a woman, in that the feminine man is male and does not want to change himself into a woman. When you say: " I wish I were female" then the starting point of that question is that you are not. We see this so often that our CD friends can get caught up in a swirl of femininity which leads to wanting to be something they are not. And misinterpreting "data points" is often a significant aspect of this. If you ask " I wish I had a female body to match who I am" the question is quite different. Most transsexuals experience the world in their correct gender from birth and live their life covering their gender tracks until they transition. It is a matter of getting the body fixed.

It is in this sense that transsexuals do not decide or wish to be female or male whatever the case may be. They decide to take steps to fix themselves.

CDing is something quite beautiful. It is the expression of the femininity of a male person, someone who can often wander on the edge of the no-womans land between genders. I see it often as an expression of an inner richness even in circumstances where it is driven by arousal and sexual undertones. The step from CDing to transition, however is one that can only be undertaken with the greatest of caution. The depth of self-reflection needed to uncover what is really deep inside is very deep indeed. And in this sense data points can be misleading. They reflect things that can be found in the manliest of men and the most female of women. Many transsexuals dress to reflect their inner experience to find relief temporarily and then move on. But in a sense they are not cross dressers.


It's generally a confusing time for men, who see the gender gap narrowing, who perceive a decrease or a loss of their male privilege, and so many men may feel emasculated even if subconsciously. How would this affect a genetic male who has transgender predispositions? Would the lure of expressing femininity be stronger? This may be more true for CDers than TSs. I haven't read any papers or theories about this, it was just an idea that my SO brought up.

This is an interesting observation. The closing of the gender gap, although painfully slow is progressing, is bringing much confusion for men to the preconceived notions that society has developed about everyone's place on the food trough. I am not sure, however if expressing femininity is really a response to that confusion. As you say yourself the anchor for the expression of femininity is much deeper than an environmental influence.

[Aprilrain]

I don't know, I could pick out a thousand "things" in my life that would scream boy but none of them blind side me like the few things that say girl and in retrospect so far anyway I don't miss being a boy and I damn sure don't miss being a man!

A couple of things that have always stood out to me. One was I remember all the movies I've watched that had TSes in them. There was one in particular because it was such an obscure "Indy" film. It was about a bunch of lesbians that all hung out at a lesbian bar, one was TS. It was a dumb easily forgettable film and I don't recall any of the other characters other than the TS (she needed to work on her voice!). My fascination with ******** was another, every time I'd see one I'd wonder do I want to sleep with her or be her?? Neither really but it was a start. I'd say the strongest and most persistent indication was my sexual fantasies. As far back as I can remember I was always a girl in them. Yet another was my CDing, I hated it! For many reasons like guilt and shame but the worst was knowing that as good as dressing made me feel, if only for a moment, the realization that it was "fake" just made me want to die! Dressing in private on a part time bases was not enough I either needed this shit to go away or to BE a woman. I could handle my body as male if that is what I was going to be but seeing my male body in woman's clothes just killed me, I needed my body to be female because it wasn't going to go away.

[LeaP]

It is in this sense that transsexuals do not decide or wish to be female or male whatever the case may be. They decide to take steps to fix themselves.

CDing is something quite beautiful. It is the expression of the femininity of a male person, someone who can often wander on the edge of the no-womans land between genders. I see it often as an expression of an inner richness even in circumstances where it is driven by arousal and sexual undertones. The step from CDing to transition, however is one that can only be undertaken with the greatest of caution. The depth of self-reflection needed to uncover what is really deep inside is very deep indeed. And in this sense data points can be misleading. They reflect things that can be found in the manliest of men and the most female of women. Many transsexuals dress to reflect their inner experience to find relief temporarily and then move on. But in a sense they are not cross dressers.


This may be the most expressive description of crossdressing I've read.

The self-reflection you describe is indeed deep. It can be long and incredibly painful, upsetting virtually everything a person thinks they know.

I worked at home yesterday and was dressed all day, very simply. And the only sensations were relief and correctness. I tied my hair back for a while - and recognized myself. After a short time, I did not think about how I was dressed and just got on with my work. I was not "cross"dressed.

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

A couple of things that have always stood out to me. One was I remember all the movies I've watched that had TSes in them.


Wow...this brings back memories too.... to me it was a sinking feeling... i recall watching paris is burning with a group of couples, and getting a very sinking feeling ... all the sadness and poverty in that movie, and i felt jealous ..and then we went to dinner and i listened to everyone mock them...

[Aprilrain]

Wow...this brings back memories too.... to me it was a sinking feeling... i recall watching paris is burning with a group of couples, and getting a very sinking feeling ... all the sadness and poverty in that movie, and i felt jealous ..and then we went to dinner and i listened to everyone mock them...

At the time I would have mocked too, I was very transphobic!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yep...me too...i'm sure i joined the "fun" at least a couple of times...hahahafrickingha

[elizabethamy]

Kaitlyn Michele, where were you last night when I tried to explain my dysphoria to my wife? You nailed it perfectly in your post -- the dysphoria hits and it doesn't matter what previous data points did or didn't exist, nor does it matter what rules can be negotiated...one person is trying to figure out who he (she?) really is, while the other is trying to set limits, build structures, etc. It's a loving festival of miscommunication! This thread is its own mini-seminar. How do you know? What's the difference between a CD and a TS? How does the past influence the future? How do you work this out in a marriage? etc.

Beyond the obvious "sticky" threads, I wish there were a "Greatest hits" listing in each forum. This would surely be a good one for safe haven and would be valuable to future visitors...

elizabethamy

[Empress Lainie]

A couple more things about my case: When I was a child I was just simply too good to be a boy; my mother used to brag how good I was.

Talk about denial: I cannot believe that a few weeks prior to my EPIPHANY!!!! I actually told someone I didn't want to be a woman. To me this is outrageously hilarious; Because AFTER E DAY I could not stand to live one more day as "male."

[Andie Elisabeth]

Beyond the obvious "sticky" threads, I wish there were a "Greatest hits" listing in each forum. This would surely be a good one for safe haven and would be valuable to future visitors...

elizabethamy

Actually, there is. Click on Replies or Views and you'll see "Greatest hits". Now if you'll, ladies, excuse me I have some reading materials waiting. (^_^)

EDIT: down arrow you want to see, not a pyramid (^_^)

[Anna Lorree]

yep...me too...i'm sure i joined the "fun" at least a couple of times...hahahafrickingha

Yeah, been running into this recently. One of the things I hate the most is when I realize that I have been being a hypocrite. I used to mock trans and gay because I thought it gave me cover, I was a "real man". Yeah, you can laugh at that, I do now, too...

Anna