Transitioning too stressful

[emmicd]

As much as I realize I am a female the process of transitioning is way too stressful for me and i am afraid i am not going to be able to realize what I had hoped to all my life. I am defeated and heartbroken but I just can't afford to do it and my son broke down and cried asking me to stay as I am.
It all is so emotional for me and I am so confused and I realize I have my son going to college in 5 years. As much as I need to transition I feel it is impossible and a pipe dream for me.
I am crying on the inside and sometimes want so badly to be on female hormones. I am not the one to talk to about transitioning because I am worlds apart from doing it. Sure I started electrolysis and am talking to a therapist about my gender dysphoria and I even had a watershed moment when she allowed me to come dressed as a female. I was so happy and she noticed the difference and said I deserve to transition. One day I am so excited and the next day I am so distant from it and just feel so miserable. All I know is that my son and family are my priority and maybe I should stop focusing on this because it seems unhealthy and I am getting sick over it.
I am inspired by those who are able to transition and believe me I wish I could but I just can't afford all that is involved in the process and I am so emotional right now. It is so stressful becoming a woman and I feel I just am not handling it well enough to succeed.
I wish you all my best in you own situations but please do not seek advice from me because I just can not provide it. I can tell you I dress everyday and in secret. When I dressed in front of my therapist I was so happy and excited but those days are too few and so spaced apart.

emmi

[Katesback]

Well as was said in a similar post. There are those that do and those that dont. If your one of those that dont then your the overwelming majority. Funny thing is you will probably make a lot of friends if ya fall into that catagory because misery loves company.

[Aprilrain]

maybe I should stop focusing on this

emmi

uh good luck with that

[Badtranny]

Well as was said in a similar post. There are those that do and those that dont. If your one of those that dont then your the overwelming majority. Funny thing is you will probably make a lot of friends if ya fall into that catagory because misery loves company.

Dammit Kate, just when I think you might not be so bad after all, you go and ruin it. Like you, I am no fan of the constant public hand wringing about something that is basically simple, but Emmi may have finally made a breakthrough here. Based on her posts lately I think she may be coming to the right conclusion and we would serve her best by helping her to accept her lot, rather than browbeat her for NOT transitioning.

I believe the best thing TS people of both genders can do for those that are questioning is to NOT encourage them. It's a players game, and if you're not strong enough to deal with bitchy TS men & women (ho's and bro's) than you ain't strong enough to do what needs to be done. Having said that, most people face the specter of significant loss if they proceed and for all it's pitfalls, transitioning ONLY offers contentment and peace of mind. MAYBE.

[Pamela Kay]

I understand your pain and stress emmi, I really do.

In reading your posts and others which are similar, those that have suffered and given all to their families are in essence taken advantage of by the same family members which we love. You have denied yourself for years and now when you need support and understanding, the needs of others are the only ones that seem to matter. Your son cried and begged you not to transition because of the effects it would have on him, not you.

I know this sounds selfish, and maybe it is but when does your health and sanity count?
Does your family understand the severity of the effects of continuing to deny yourself?

There are multiple stories from members right here on this forum where the disphoria became so severe that they nearly took their life.
It sounds like your disphoria has become stronger. How will it help your family if your stress level is made even worse or the decision becomes life or death?

Have a talk with your family, explain the possible consequences to you if you don't transtion, then listen to what they say and how they react. This will tell you whether they are thinking of the consequences to you or to themselves.

You have to think of yourself and your health too.

[Katesback]

Fact is that for one to transition with a 100% effort they really do need to be........selfish, self centered, and not care what other people think.

The trans community is filled with people that dont give it a 100% effort (back to the talkers). Transition is the most difficult thing one can ever go through and it really does take a 100% effort and that inclused being selfish in the eyes of other people. It is what it is. Perhaps that why so few actually transition. They just dont have it in them to do it for themselves.

Katie

[Melody Moore]

Fact is that for one to transition with a 100% effort they really do need to be........selfish, self centered, and not care what other people think.
True, but people can go to far with this and experience other issues
with family & friends, just like this example: How can I help my wife? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?173318-How-can-I-help-my-wife)

There is a human side to transition which you seem to completely ignore and people
who are irrational in their remarks have done far more damage than you ever realise
and this is something else I have come to recognise a lot lately.

If transition is not for emmicd then that is their choice and it is their business & they don't
need any put downs or to be made feel guilty for making a decision that is right for them.

[Barbara Ella]

Reading all the posts, doing this is the hardest thing one can undertake. ABSOLUTELY! I can see unless your mind, and your life situation are perfectly in synch that transitioning most likely will not happen. I can only guess that it will take your full time attention, thus the many references to the need to be selfish. You do not need to say you will never transition. Just not now. Things change, and especially the attitude of teenagers. Transitioning is a long process, so think of the next year or so as getting prepared. Stay positive. Work toward it. See if your life can handle the degree of selfishness that is required.

Barbara

[Katesback]

Yes it is a selfish thing in the eyes of other people to transition. If you are around TS women that are ACTUALLY transitioning (not talking about the baby step, excuse crowd now) you will notice a lot of them exhibit traits that would suggest they are self centered, on guard, narsisistic, know it all, uncarring, and a lot of other dissonant traits. These are for the most part a way to cope with the changes that they are going through. I might add that nearly all these women share a common aspect. They still have a penis.

That leads me to one of the common themes that I have said many times. There is really only one way to get past these traits and back to a carring healthy and normal person. Care to take a guess?

Katie

PS for the bad guessers the answer happens to be SRS. SRS changes everything people.

[Marleena]

Emmi you need to have this dicussion with your gender therapist. This is a very personal decision and we really don't know what's going on in your mind. The girls that transition here do so because they need to (it can be life and death). It's not for everybody. In fact it's obvious that some here (maybe only one) that transitioned are still miserable and take it out on others who don't go the whole route to SRS.

The leader of my TG group is a TS woman that hasn't transitioned because of her family. She took the middle ground (HRT). She helps the TS girls find professionals so they can make the right informed decision without outside pressures.

[Sharon]

I wish you the very best, Emmi, and I hope that you soon learn to put your own needs first for a change. Just as you want to take care of your family, you also deserve to be taken care of by them.

:bighug2:

[docrobbysherry]

I don't believe there is a "rite" or "wrong" answer to the "SRS or not", question. Any more than one size of shoes must fit everyone.

Emmi, remember what Ian Fleming said, "Never say never." For those that wish to fly, it's wiser for them to wait years and finish pilot training. Rather than to just jump off a cliff and flap their arms immediately! Yes, they're flying for a moment. But, their landing will be a PAINFUL one!

By patient and don't give up hope! Maybe the rite time for Emmi will come?

[Badtranny]

you will notice a lot of them exhibit traits that would suggest they are self centered, on guard, narsisistic, know it all, uncarring, and a lot of other dissonant traits. These are for the most part a way to cope with the changes that they are going through.

um, if I didn't know any better I would think...


I might add that nearly all these women share a common aspect. They still have a penis.

Doh!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Emmi, I hold no negative thoughts about your post..

I do have lots of thoughts tho. You are going back and forth so much...this is what happens with gender dysphoria.

I disagree that you have to not care and stomp all over people to transition. It's simplistic and self defeating to look at it that way..perhaps Kate it's really about how you handled your transition...I don't deny that we have to tell the world to pound sand...and we also usually disappoint our loved ones.

..but we can't deny our basic Rights as human beings to feel like we are alive..we make mistakes investing in a doomed life...call it selfish if you must.. but it's only selfish in a very literal way...transition is a valid and good choice regardless of your status in life...like anything a person does, you can transition poorly or well, you can succeed or fail..you can give up or stay on course, and there are ups and downs...

My ex is doing well, my kids and I are closer than ever...they desperately wanted me to stay the same..I told them I couldn't ...but i also made sure I stayed their dad... Their dad is a woman...it's actually pretty simple despite the weirdness of it.
I give up someof the benefits of being really immersed in my womanhood..but I am delighted with my kids, and it's worth it..
In my group, I know more nontransitioners that are estranged from their children than those that transition....

Also money matters..in our desperation, we often underestimate how much it matters...when survival is at stake, money loses meaning and we muster up courage even tho we know we are gonna hurt financially..in my life, I believe that the day I could afford transition was the day my dysphoria started...if you can wait, work and save, it's a very valid choice...

The elephant we all know about is that not transitioning had costs too...and unfortunately those costs are totally unpredictable, they are high and they chip away at all good things...and they ALWAYS get worse and they NEVER go away...it sucks..and although it's tough news, I am compelled to say it...you need to know, many middle pathers are not transsexual. They are happy because they are not women,,,pls don't send me hate male(get it?) if you are a middle pather and view yourself as a woman...you should be thankful that you are in a good place, and that ou don't have to through transition..

So Emmi, I hearyou...it's ok...your situation is rough...your dysphoria is not going to get better...hopefully you will be able to manage it better, hopefully you can build self esteem and be proud of how you are handling things...

I

[emmicd]

Everyone here makes some very good points to this most difficult decision. I have been in this position several times in my life and it seems that everytime I feel i will embark on this journey of transition I am caught up in the life I currently have as opposed to the life I have been repressing all throughout my so-called life. I know I am transsexual. I know I am a female. I know I feel trapped and I know I am hurting. I also know that I am married with a wife and son whom I both love very much and I feel responsible for my actions. I have a son who relies on his "dad" and I am his role model in life. The funny thing is I feel stronger as a woman and I told this to my therapist and there are moments where I feel I will transition but then I get caught up in life situations and when my son who is autistic started to lose it when I spoke to him about my situation. I could see the confusion and fright in his face and I realize autistic children can not handle change well. So as I have experienced time and time again it seems it is my destiny to live my life with so many unanswered questions and lost visions of a life that should have been. I have become despondent at times and feeling sorry for myself but the bigger picture in life is that I have a son depending on me to be his father and I feel I can not let him down. I am in therapy and hopefully I will gain some degree of understanding in my situation. I have always felt trapped and isolated and I know what inner pain feels like but I guess I am trying as best I can to anesthesize my pain and be as supportive as I can to my autistic son who needs me. I am once again caught up in those life situations and not free to be who I truly am. I seek my solace and sanity through dressing and my closet shows that. I have 99.99 % female clothes and the bare minimum male clothing to wear to my job. I am exclusively dressing in womens clothes at home even though my family ask me not to. This is my only way to survive at this point and I truly feel if I had to stop this dressing I would most certainly lose my will. I do not want to do this so I dress in feminine atire at home to find some sense of happiness and identification with my female gender. I am so grateful to all of you for your insight and your friendship.
emmi

[Rianna Humble]

There is really only one way to get past these traits and back to a carring healthy and normal person. Care to take a guess?

Katie

PS for the bad guessers the answer happens to be SRS. SRS changes everything people.

So what went wrong in your case?

[Noemi]

Emmi, I hold no negative thoughts about your post..

I do have lots of thoughts tho. You are going back and forth so much...this is what happens with gender dysphoria.

I disagree that you have to not care and stomp all over people to transition. It's simplistic and self defeating to look at it that way..perhaps Kate it's really about how you handled your transition...I don't deny that we have to tell the world to pound sand...and we also usually disappoint our loved ones.

..but we can't deny our basic Rights as human beings to feel like we are alive..we make mistakes investing in a doomed life...call it selfish if you must.. but it's only selfish in a very literal way...transition is a valid and good choice regardless of your status in life...like anything a person does, you can transition poorly or well, you can succeed or fail..you can give up or stay on course, and there are ups and downs...

My ex is doing well, my kids and I are closer than ever...they desperately wanted me to stay the same..I told them I couldn't ...but i also made sure I stayed their dad... Their dad is a woman...it's actually pretty simple despite the weirdness of it.
I give up someof the benefits of being really immersed in my womanhood..but I am delighted with my kids, and it's worth it..
In my group, I know more nontransitioners that are estranged from their children than those that transition....

Also money matters..in our desperation, we often underestimate how much it matters...when survival is at stake, money loses meaning and we muster up courage even tho we know we are gonna hurt financially..in my life, I believe that the day I could afford transition was the day my dysphoria started...if you can wait, work and save, it's a very valid choice...

The elephant we all know about is that not transitioning had costs too...and unfortunately those costs are totally unpredictable, they are high and they chip away at all good things...and they ALWAYS get worse and they NEVER go away...it sucks..and although it's tough news, I am compelled to say it...you need to know, many middle pathers are not transsexual. They are happy because they are not women,,,pls don't send me hate male(get it?) if you are a middle pather and view yourself as a woman...you should be thankful that you are in a good place, and that ou don't have to through transition..

So Emmi, I hearyou...it's ok...your situation is rough...your dysphoria is not going to get better...hopefully you will be able to manage it better, hopefully you can build self esteem and be proud of how you are handling things...

I

Thank you for sharing all this. You have such good intentions and freely give this information and you are beautiful for doing so.

Emmi I sail a similar ship. I would like to transition too, and think of being female everyday But I am in love with my career as a musician and do not want to change anything to interfere with my art. So the music is enough for me right now. I am single and in my early 40's....spend allot of time alone though, either I am out performing or teaching playing the role of me, or I am home practicing and dressed/Noemi...well I won't bore you with my life at the moment the focus is you honey. I can relate, though, the older I get the more intense my feminine feelings are.

Emmi, I have been reading your posts and my heart goes out to you(hug hug hug) Look to the perfection in your life, your family and health.
There is some good advise being given specially by Kaitlyn, who is a dear.

Keep talking, that is a good thing.
♥♥♥
Noemi

[RachelOKC]

I rather agree with Kate (horrors!) that you need to learn not to care what people think.

No...let me amend that...you need to learn how to not let others' disapproval keep you in fear and shame. It's ok to care and be affected by it; that's what makes you human. But you can't let them hold you back, and you can't keep holding yourself back. At some point you need to stop talking and start doing. You may find that transition isn't for you, but you will never known until you take the first real steps.

I had a terrible setback the other day with someone whom I thought was a good friend, but I found out that her "support" and "respect" were qute conditional and in reality neither supportive nor respectful. Without details, I'll say she made it very clear that I am a second class person to her specifically because of my trans nature. She said things that wound up hurting my already strained relationship with my wife - things that I instinctually knew were true. This has hurt me terribly and I am still upset, mostly because of the many kindnesses I have done this pathetic woman, her revelation of the great shallowness of her soul, and that this incident transpired as I was taking my wife out for our anniversary. This sad excuse for a person is no longer a friend and I say that with absolute conviction. There is no going back from this.

My depressive nature told me that this is transition and transition is misery. It told me to stop transition and go back to stagnation somewhere in between. It told me to purge and try being a man. It told me to go jump from a bridge. But I can't do any of those things, because NONE OF THEM WORK. Transition is the only way for me, and despite setbacks I'm going forward. Yes, I'm becoming a harder person than I was but I have no intention of being selfish or uncaring. If I didn't care then I wouldn't grieve over the loss of a friendship, necessary as it was.

I called up another friend that night, coincidentally with the same name as the one who had hurt me. As I cried to her on the phone, she comforted me in every way she could, told me we were closer friends than ever before, and then told me she loved me and I'd be ok. Never in ten years of friendship had I heard those words from her, and I absolutely believe them too. In a moment when my strength was faltering and I was again questioning everything, my other friend was able to give me strength to regain my path. Yes, transition is stressful, but sometimes it's the only thing to do.

[Kathryn Martin]

Emmi,

In this comment I will disagree with my previous commentators. I am very familiar with the place that you are in. As human beings we make decision in life and those decisions have clear consequences. Very often we are bound by the decisions that we have made, and one of those life altering decisions is taking up a life with a companion, a spouse and having children. Having made that decision, we have to carry and be bound by the consequences of those decisions. They were not made on a whim. For me it ended up meaning that until my children were completely independent of me and no longer reliant on my ongoing financial and emotional support I had to wait. It was the promise I made to them when I became their father and it had to be kept.

You are visibly, readably torn at this time. Decisions such as this, namely to transition or not to transition must mature, ripen in your own heart and sometimes speaking every thought aloud is not helpful. For me holding these thought and decisions in my heart, in this solitude where I can shine a light on everything from every angle and come to a resolution has always been important.

I respect you for the decisions you make. Having been there I know hard this is and I wish you the very best.

Kathryn

[Katesback]

Now Rianna I have not said anything mean to anyone and you and crossdressers come into the TS section and say mean things about me. Why is that? What did I do that made you so mean? Finally last time I checked I thought you said you put me on ignore.

Katie

[Julia_in_Pa]

Emmi,

Transition is done by those that absolutely have to transition.
Transition is extremely difficult, extremely lonely and extremely stressful.

Your need to transition is not strong enough to overpower the expectations that society has placed upon you Emmi.
If you think about it transition in it's most basic and simplistic form would be to put on the dress and never take it off again.
Sounds simple right?
It's not.

Emmi, don't beat yourself up about this. Your obviously not ready.
If you were ready you would transition.
Will you ever be ready for transition? I don't know this and neither do you at least at this time.

Be strong sister.


Julia

[Frances]

Accepting the inevitability of transition is a lot like accepting death. One of the stages is bargaining. Late transitioner who have a lot to lose always get to that point. When disphoria gets too intense, the decision makes itself. I bargained with myself and others for what seems like forever. I would say that I just needed to dress once in while or pretend I was a woman in my head, that I did not need the world to echo back my womanhood (wrong!).

I just went to Dr. B's yesterday and met 4 trans girls in their late teens to early twenties. I wish I had not bargained so long.

[Diane Elizabeth]

Transitioning is a personal choice, obviously. That said and everything else that was written just take with a grain of salt. Not everyone's advice is going to fit right for you. You decide. But, you don't know how your son will grow up in a few years and say " Dad I am okay with you transitioning". I knew my son needed me when he was growing up since his I left his mother. I waited and worked on electrolysis while in hiding. Now he has grown and matured to the ripe old age of 29. He was stunned at first. Speechless. He called his fiance and she told him straight off that it doesn't change the person who is inside. He accepts that is okay now. If any of that can apply to your thinking then great. If not, I hope the best for you and your family.

[Stephanie-L]

Julia puts it very well. I was in a similar position, and still am in some ways. The last of my children are just about grown, and I do not think my transitioning will negatively affect her, at least to much, and she is probably the most accepting of them. I am in the process of leaving my wife. I gave it at least five years, probably more like ten, from the time I knew I needed to leave, until I started to do it. My transition is only one aspect of the destruction of our marriage, but it is a factor. The only other people that I worry about are my parents, and I really don't expect them to last much longer, so now I really have nothing to hold me back. As far as friends, I was talking to my therapist the other day and she told me something I already knew. If someone remains a friend after transition, then they were truely your friend, if they don't, then they were never your friend and don't deserve your love. Think of it as a really big test, though you are not doing it for that reason. If you are still at the point where your family responsibilities override your need to transition, then you are not ready. I agree that your son is being selfish, but at his age, I presume about 12 or 13, he is supposed to be. It is a bit of a survival thing left over from our caveman days, it is only when you are older and more capable that you can afford to think of others needs. Of course, you don't mention the level of his disability, but that is a factor. Children in general don't like change, so sometimes you need to help them through it. Yes, this is hugely stessful, but nothing worthwhile is ever easy. It was not easy growing up as a man, you just had a bit more support, and a lot more time to do it so you spread the pain out a lot. Keep going at whatever level you can now, keep at the counselling. One thing that struck me though was that you said your therapist "allowed" you to come en femme. They should at very least not restrict you, and at best actively encourage you to express your true self. As has been said here, perhaps you will never be ready, maybe someday you will, but you are definately not there yet. Don't stress over it, that is one more thing you don't need to worry about. If the day does come, then it comes, until then remember, the only day it is too late to transition is the day after you die. Good luck, hang in there and keep working at it..................Stephanie

[Rianna Humble]

you and crossdressers come into the TS section and say mean things about me. Why is that? What did I do that made you so mean? Finally last time I checked I thought you said you put me on ignore.

You need to hone your comprehension skills

1 I am not a crossdresser

2 I never said that I had put you on ignore

3 If you don't see where you are mean, it will take a beter woman than me to educate you

[Kelly DeWinter]

Emmie,

Feeling are an important part of who you are as a person, take it slow, be sure of the path you are on. I have met many Women ( post-SRS) who are not selfish or mean spirited, who once their SRS was complete they felt relaxed in who they have become as a person.


Now Rianna I have not said anything mean to anyone and you and crossdressers come into the TS section and say mean things about me. Why is that? What did I do that made you so mean? Finally last time I checked I thought you said you put me on ignore.

Katie

Katie, you may need to re-read some of your posts, you come accross a very mean spirited toward crossdressers, whom I suspect you were the same as any other CD here, prior to SRS.


...... I might add that nearly all these women share a common aspect. They still have a penis.

......


Katie
Yes, Crossdressers share having a penis with Transexuals too, like a belly button, the cosmetic difference is wether you have an inny or an outy .


The vast majorty of MtoF and intersexed SRS performed use the Penile Inversion method, which is basicly in crude terms turning a penis inside out to achive an artificail vagina. Some people need the psycological comfort that SRS brings, others may not, or may make the decision later in life, so continually trash talking CD's at every oppertunity does not help th OP and promotes bad feelings within the forums.

[Nicole Erin]

Maybe you feel right now is not the best time to transition, but on the other hand, there will always be some excuse to not do things. What happens when your kid goes to college? I guess he is maybe 14 now since you said he goes to college in 5 years.
If you need and want to do this, how long are you going to put it on hold? After your kid leaves, are you going to have another reason? Some disapproving parent or family member or whoever?

If you cannot afford the expensive things like SRS, is that going to be the excuse? You just have to do the best you can with what you have or can afford.

Keep in mind also that once you start living as a woman, it is different than just dancing around in a cheerleader outfit singing along to some stupid tranny songs (see one of the 5,000 threads in the CD section about girlie music)
Nope, you just live your life

[RachelOKC]

Maybe you feel right now is not the best time to transition, but on the other hand, there will always be some excuse to not do things. What happens when your kid goes to college? I guess he is maybe 14 now since you said he goes to college in 5 years.
If you need and want to do this, how long are you going to put it on hold? After your kid leaves, are you going to have another reason? Some disapproving parent or family member or whoever?

If you cannot afford the expensive things like SRS, is that going to be the excuse? You just have to do the best you can with what you have or can afford.

Keep in mind also that once you start living as a woman, it is different than just dancing around in a cheerleader outfit singing along to some stupid tranny songs (see one of the 5,000 threads in the CD section about girlie music)
Nope, you just live your life

^^^ What she said. ^^^

I'm not going to live a life of regrets, but I wish at 40 I'd done what I started to do at 25. At least now I'm pretty sure I won't be at 60 saying that I should have done it at 40. Don't make excuses. DO make steps forward.

[Kathryn Martin]

There is a lot of wisdom in your post Frances


Accepting the inevitability of transition is a lot like accepting death. One of the stages is bargaining. Late transitioner who have a lot to lose always get to that point. When disphoria gets too intense, the decision makes itself. I bargained with myself and others for what seems like forever. I would say that I just needed to dress once in while or pretend I was a woman in my head, that I did not need the world to echo back my womanhood (wrong!).

I just went to Dr. B's yesterday and met 4 trans girls in their late teens to early twenties. I wish I had not bargained so long.

[ReineD]

Fact is that for one to transition with a 100% effort they really do need to be........selfish, self centered, and not care what other people think.

I suppose this is one way of looking at it, although I wouldn't word it quite like that.



The trans community is filled with people that dont give it a 100% effort (back to the talkers).

Well, maybe these other people are not selfish or self-centered, and they have priorities that are equally important, such as their families or other priorities. And unlike those who do decide to transition, since these non-transitioners do have other priorities, maybe they'll eventually come to a peaceful acceptance of their lives. :)

[Anna Lorree]

Emmi,

In this comment I will disagree with my previous commentators. I am very familiar with the place that you are in. As human beings we make decision in life and those decisions have clear consequences. Very often we are bound by the decisions that we have made, and one of those life altering decisions is taking up a life with a companion, a spouse and having children. Having made that decision, we have to carry and be bound by the consequences of those decisions. They were not made on a whim. For me it ended up meaning that until my children were completely independent of me and no longer reliant on my ongoing financial and emotional support I had to wait. It was the promise I made to them when I became their father and it had to be kept.

You are visibly, readably torn at this time. Decisions such as this, namely to transition or not to transition must mature, ripen in your own heart and sometimes speaking every thought aloud is not helpful. For me holding these thought and decisions in my heart, in this solitude where I can shine a light on everything from every angle and come to a resolution has always been important.

I respect you for the decisions you make. Having been there I know hard this is and I wish you the very best.

Kathryn

Bless you. As one who is wrestling with this very issue, I thank you for your understanding and compassion.

Anna


Accepting the inevitability of transition is a lot like accepting death. One of the stages is bargaining. Late transitioner who have a lot to lose always get to that point. When disphoria gets too intense, the decision makes itself. I bargained with myself and others for what seems like forever. I would say that I just needed to dress once in while or pretend I was a woman in my head, that I did not need the world to echo back my womanhood (wrong!).

I just went to Dr. B's yesterday and met 4 trans girls in their late teens to early twenties. I wish I had not bargained so long.

I posted about this a month or so ago, realizing that my male self would have to die in order to allow my female self to take over. No, I'm not one who has a psudo split personality and thinks it's OK to do things en femme that I wouldn't do en homme (like have a male lover on the side). I am one person, but conflicted over exactly who this one person is. I absolutely agree that this is very much like a grieving process for me, and yeah, I am in the bargaining stage right now, too. Will I transition? Honestly, I don't know how far I will need to go. I think it very likely that I will pursue HRT soon. I want to try it for 3-4 months and my therapist agrees that it could help me figure some things out. She says I will either seriously WANT to quit, or I won't be able to imagine quitting, but there won't be any middle ground. I hope that is the case.

Anna

[Anna Lorree]

As much as I realize I am a female the process of transitioning is way too stressful for me and i am afraid i am not going to be able to realize what I had hoped to all my life. I am defeated and heartbroken but I just can't afford to do it and my son broke down and cried asking me to stay as I am.
It all is so emotional for me and I am so confused and I realize I have my son going to college in 5 years. As much as I need to transition I feel it is impossible and a pipe dream for me.
I am crying on the inside and sometimes want so badly to be on female hormones. I am not the one to talk to about transitioning because I am worlds apart from doing it. Sure I started electrolysis and am talking to a therapist about my gender dysphoria and I even had a watershed moment when she allowed me to come dressed as a female. I was so happy and she noticed the difference and said I deserve to transition. One day I am so excited and the next day I am so distant from it and just feel so miserable. All I know is that my son and family are my priority and maybe I should stop focusing on this because it seems unhealthy and I am getting sick over it.
I am inspired by those who are able to transition and believe me I wish I could but I just can't afford all that is involved in the process and I am so emotional right now. It is so stressful becoming a woman and I feel I just am not handling it well enough to succeed.
I wish you all my best in you own situations but please do not seek advice from me because I just can not provide it. I can tell you I dress everyday and in secret. When I dressed in front of my therapist I was so happy and excited but those days are too few and so spaced apart.

emmi

Julia once told me that I should only transition if it is a matter of life or death. I contemplated suicide when I was 15 and realized I should have been a girl. I decided then not to kill myself, and I haven't had a shotgun in my mouth since. Yeah, I was that close. I want to live, but that doesn't make it simple with regard to family. When I fathered children, I vowed to put their needs before my own. So here I am, much as you are.

There are some here who I am sure put me in the "whiner" camp, and that's fine. This forum is a place for me to vent and relieve stress, it's cathartic therapy for me. If there are people who don't want to read my "whining", they can choose to not read my posts. I'm OK with that. There are patient people here who have given me some great advice, that figuring all of this out takes time and that I should only transition if/when I am ready and fully committed. Being able to see logically that they are right doesn't make my bad days with regard to the dysphoria any less bad. Those days still hurt, and even on good days there is a constant nagging telling me that I am not as I want to be. When I mention this now, I tend to get people telling me to just start transition already. If I were alone in life, the choice would be that simple, and I would. However, the value system I was raised with includes a healthy dose of self-sacrifice, and I haven't overcome that. It is a part of who I am, just as the dysphoria is. Sounds like a special little Hell built just for me, huh?

So I understand where you are. Aside from the petty bickering over which posts are rude, there is some good advice here. Many of the ladies here have given me bits of their experience to think about and I appreciate that. But, in the end I will have to decide how I want to live. I know I am not happy how I am now, the question for me is how little can I get away with doing, and still find my happy place? I am taking steps, they are slow. I don't have $20,000 laying around just waiting for electrolysis, nor do I have thousands waiting for a surgeon. I'm supporting a wife and two kids, money is tight, but I fathered them and said "I do" to her. It was my choice, my decision. I have to live with the consequences of those choices. Doing less would make me a bad person, regardless of gender or sex. Maybe that means I will transition after the kids move out, maybe I will find a place between full male and full transition before that. I don't know.

It's hard Emmi, I know. Getting caught in the bickering between who is better, TS's or CD's doesn't help you. Ignore that, they have already made their decisions and are trying to defend them. You aren't there yet, and neither am I.

Anna

[Inna]

What I am about to write here, may be taken as harsh but then such as life it presents us with moments of pain and sorrow which are there for a reason.

Emmi, you are talking about feeling of being selfish towards those who love you. But fail to see the selfishness of their ways when asking you to remain in bondage despite you communicating of your sorrow. As it is often in situations such as this one, if you hide your feelings and only show your pseudo tough shell without much emotion they do not posses a reason to really know what you are going through even if you tell of your transgender issue. You need to open up if you haven't yet and yes that involves tears and truth to flow freely. Now I realize that some just don't have it in them to be so forthcoming, no surprise after a life long denial or you already did open up emotionally and you are still unaccepted.

I will ask a simple question which will illustrate how tough it is for anyone to start living life walking their own path as it is laid out in front of them:

"I choose to be happy first before loving you, would you , however like me to choose loving you despite my need to be happy?" for most wife's or husbands or children the answer will be so selfish it is shocking but as real as life it self, " yes, I want you to love me first before you love your self " "I need YOU"

So if both parties choose loving each other despite need to be happy first, both end up miserable and lost.

So you see, when you place your self and the need for happiness first, you are also placing possibility of everyone to see the light of truth and potential for them to love with the immaculate love and let go of conformity.

The greatest power we posses yet the hardest to fulfill, is within letting go of those we hold prisoners within our own hearts!

[Cindy M]

Inna, that was beautiful and powerful.

[LeaP]

Emmi, you are talking about feeling of being selfish towards those who love you. But fail to see the selfishness of their ways when asking you to remain in bondage despite you communicating of your sorrow.

Sometimes it feels like that. But sometimes things come through the darkness, too. My wife referred today to "what I'm going through". She sees the selfish aspects, but she also sees the struggle. This is not a one-sided thing in any kind of real relationship. Her acknowledgement of my pain opens me to hers, too.

Lea

[Inna]

Sometimes it feels like that. But sometimes things come through the darkness, too. My wife referred today to "what I'm going through". She sees the selfish aspects, but she also sees the struggle. This is not a one-sided thing in any kind of real relationship. Her acknowledgement of my pain opens me to hers, too.

Lea

However unfortunate it is for everyone involved to suffer as they will, someones truth is never anyone else truth, but the purity of reveal and embrace of oneself as they truly are opens up the flood gates letting pain out and bringing love in. Love isn't external yet it flows through our hearts as a light, force, a beacon of absolute acceptance. By allowing our selves to be free of bonds placed on us as expectations, we as well free others whom we place our own expectations upon, even as far as love it self. It is a lesson to be learned by everyone involved and inevitably some will not be willing to go along, for it is a painful and sorrowful journey. Yet those who shall remain at ones side will grow together like never before, experiencing love they only dreamed about.

[MC-lite]

@emmicd: My heart to you. Deciding to throw the switch and transition was the most frightening decision that I have ever had to make. I knew that it would throw my life into an upheaval (it did!) and would probably alienate me from my family and friends. (Well...most of them)

Yes, it takes courage to transition, but -nothing- of this magnitude should be attempted without preparation and planning. This -needs- to be done with the aid of your therapist. You need to prepare a support system for yourself that is totally disconnected from your current life; most if not all of your current friends will probably not want to deal with you once you start the process. Most likely, they will not even want to hear about it or even discuss it with you. You may lose your job, you may end up divorced, and you may alienate yourself from your son who, I'm sure means a lot to you. Not to mention that, once you start the process, you may elect to get SRS. This is a -very- expensive surgery that is elective (i.e. not covered by insurance unless you have a rider on your health policy that covers it.)

Being cautious about jumping into transition is probably the wisest thing that you could do right now. You -need- to talk about this with your therapist. (Did I say that twice? I can't stress that enough) If you decide to go ahead with it, take your time. Try to visualize the consequences of -every- step that you take. Transition is a chess game and a minefield all rolled into one.

Think it through. Make a timeline with your wife, if possible. If and when you do transition, you -want- to remain friends with her, if at all possible. She very well may divorce you. Be prepared for that. She thought she married a man; that's no longer the case.

I wish I had followed my own advice. But I've heard it said that the best lessons are the most costly. IMHO the best lessons are those learned from the folly of others.

Remember these two proverbs:

"Chance favors the prepared mind."

-and-

"Luck is the residual of good planning."

Stay Strong.
:Miki

[ReineD]

Emmi, you are talking about feeling of being selfish towards those who love you. But fail to see the selfishness of their ways when asking you to remain in bondage despite you communicating of your sorrow.


"I choose to be happy first before loving you, would you , however like me to choose loving you despite my need to be happy?" for most wife's or husbands or children the answer will be so selfish it is shocking but as real as life it self, " yes, I want you to love me first before you love your self " "I need YOU"

Inna, I don't think it plays out that way for most people. The divorce rate in this country is 50%, and people do move on when they find they are no longer compatible. I have a hard time imagining a wife telling her husband that he can't transition. It is likely she would say, "I cannot live a married life with another woman, I'm not wired that way, and so if you choose to do this we will need to go our separate ways".

People who let their needs be known are not being selfish and self-centered, a hetero wife any more than a TS husband. But, I do see the difficulties they both face when the circumstances change in the marriage as they each struggle to try to come up with a solution that does not involved breaking up their children's homes. Whatever each couple or family decides under such circumstances should be above judgment and criticism from others.

Also, the process of transitioning carries with it large considerations that are above and beyond how a wife might feel about being married to another woman. There is the question of exorbitant cost, which is daunting for the average income earner who faces putting children through college. There is the matter of how to navigate the transition, living in a world that still does not understand. What will become of the husband's source of income? Not everyone works for themselves or a progressive employer. Also how will the children deal with the transition if they are young? And if they deal with it well, how will they fare among their peers? Will they be treated as outcasts and if so, how will this affect their emotional developments? How will the extended families react?

I really don't think it's fair to put the entire blame on the wife, for facing something as difficult as a husband who needs to transition and looking at it with dread or fear and that's not even mentioning the fact that she may not be able to change her sexual orientation to accomodate her husband. The husband also is well aware of all the other considerations that I am sure also play a large part in the overall decision to transition or not.

We can fault our non-accepting society for the difficult position that Emmi finds herself in, not just her wife and child.

[Inna]

Hey Reine, I do too, say that everyone must suffer the pain of this condition when out in the open, no one is immune to pain, not wife, not children, nor any friends, however I never said that blame points to wife or for that matter anyone particular. What I have written is simply embracing the truth for each one within the circle. Some may find that their love already carries an immaculate value and their love for the other knows no boundary of gender, no boundary of any kind, then there are others who place their sense of belonging and need on more earthly values, those shall suffer consequences of their own needs and perhaps will not survive nor accept the turbulent atmosphere of transition.

No one is at fault, no one should be blamed, but simply walk the path they feel real and true.

I am always happy when another girl finds her way through the maze of self and comes to the crossroads of existence for it is the time of choosing the life full of freedom and truth, but such happiness is bittersweet, because I my self was not long ago standing in the same spot, contemplating life and death, and knowing that yet another shall walk through gates of hell, and bleed the sorrow of loss and fear for tomorrow.

As I see it, it isn't who wins or who looses but rather who chooses to awake and who, to stay asleep

[Sammy777]

If you are around TS women that are ACTUALLY transitioning (not talking about the baby step, excuse crowd now) you will notice a lot of them exhibit traits that would suggest they are
self centered, on guard, narsisistic, know it all, uncarring, and a lot of other dissonant traits.

I might add that nearly all these women share a common aspect. They still have a penis.
There is really only one way to get past these traits and back to a carring healthy and normal person.
Care to take a guess?
PS for the bad guessers the answer happens to be SRS. SRS changes everything people.

So then tell me Kate,
If these traits seem to suddenly disappear with ones penis then what's your excuse for obviously still having a few of them? :heehee:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Katie
Yes, Crossdressers share having a penis with Transexuals too, like a belly button, the cosmetic difference is wether you have an inny or an outy .


The vast majorty of MtoF and intersexed SRS performed use the Penile Inversion method, which is basicly in crude terms turning a penis inside out to achive an artificail vagina. Some people need the psycological comfort that SRS brings, others may not, or may make the decision later in life, so continually trash talking CD's at every oppertunity does not help th OP and promotes bad feelings within the forums.

What a mean thing to say..basically this is just the cd version of Kate...
Is the benefit of curing other birth defects like cleft lip something you denigrate as well? you have no idea what you are talking about...

FWIW, i totally agree Kate is mean spirited in many comments.
I think her message gets lost in it. It's a very sad message...

There are lots of people around here that come here to be women..this is a huge part of their "girl time"....they like to emphasize their female side here, there is literally nothing about their male life, posting in this forum feels good , just like crossdressing does, and i think that's great..
and from my experience, this group of people is pretty neat group, happy and content, and mostly good with themselves..

for the perpetual non transition ts, this is not a you go girl, just be yourself and it will be ok situation

Living partly as a male, is living as a male , regardless of your self defined identity.. and for the obviously severely dysphoric ts people around here, that are not using this site as a fantasy, some things that are said about fulfilling and satisfying life choices are well meaning but counterproductive..

I can only speak from personal experience..in my close knit therapy group of ts women, only a small percentage transition, and not all transitions go well...but the rest do go pretty well, and in 4 years of therapy, i didn't see one transsexual that stayed male have a life "go well"..it was a non stop parade of bitterness, frustration and envy.....they kept their jobs, they were not estranged from kids and parents, most stayed married, many planned to transition someday, basically "going slow" is a treatment for their transsexuality

The stark and unchanging reality for them is that the more a ts invests in a male life, the worse it gets. Every time....many still choose to live this way, and in the end, they just have to deal with it...and frankly many choose to simply not invest in life anymore at all ..and these are the suicide attempts..thats how bad it is..its not cheerleading, its pragmatic and brutal honesty that prompts me to say this

This is not true of non ts people...people who self identify as dual natured simply do not have this problem...they negotiate between themselves and loved ones and that's got its own set of problems and issues, big ones....but for this group, the option to live a totally fulfilled and authentic life is there as a male with lots of femme time, but its actually got nothing to do with the transsexuals that come here to get support around the issue of figuring out how to escape their male lives.

[Katesback]

When I sit and think about why I find this site so entertaining I can break it down to the simplest thing. See as Katlin put it there are a lot of people that come here to be the girl. This is thier fantasy place. They want it to feel good. Keep in mind the the overwelming majority of people here have not even begun transition, even smaller have gotten thier name changed, fewer have any any surgery let alone SRS.

Oh so why is it entertaining? Well because a lot of the people here that fit into the first paragraph are more than willing to tell one of the very small group of girls that they dont know what they are talking about. To put it into guy terms its like your sitting in your easy chair watching a football game and yelling at the players for not doing this or that. Of course your not a player but its easy to PRETEND to be an expert even against real experts.

Katie

PS Katlin you said that the more a TS invests to living a male life the worse it gets. I am telling your your wasting your time. I like you know what is real but people will throw out the "every persons life is unique and you cant generalize" excuse.

[LeaP]

... for the perpetual non transition ts, this is not a you go girl, just be yourself and it will be ok situation

Living partly as a male, is living as a male , regardless of your self defined identity.. and for the obviously severely dysphoric ts people around here, that are not using this site as a fantasy, some things that are said about fulfilling and satisfying life choices are well meaning but counterproductive..
...
The stark and unchanging reality for them is that the more a ts invests in a male life, the worse it gets. ...

This is not true of non ts people...people who self identify as dual natured simply do not have this problem... but its actually got nothing to do with the transsexuals that come here to get support around the issue of figuring out how to escape their male lives.

I'm in the dysphoric, non-fantasy category, have not made decisions about transition yet, and echo the sentiments above.

I feel no cheerleading pressure. While I get comments about transition frequently, I can't recall an instance where it came across as non-topical. Mostly I see transition responses as gently directing my attention (once again) to transition as a solution to whatever dysphoria-related issue I happen to be presenting. I've yet to see transition depicted as a panacea by anyone. The cautions actually run in the other direction.

I did have some responses in a recent thread where I thought I was hearing advice to ignore specific fears. Even that, however, was not what it seemed. You can't avoid dealing with those fears while you have them, and you have to plan to avoid problems. What the responders were saying is that the post-transition reality doesn't necessarily correspond to those fears.

The whole TS non-transition, find coping mechanisms while living as a male is a topic that comes up in therapy. It may or may not work for me at some level. There is no scenario where I would view it as fulfilling or satisfying, however. None at all. At best it would be survival.


I find this site so entertaining ... Keep in mind the the overwelming majority of people here have not even begun transition, even smaller have gotten thier name changed, fewer have any any surgery let alone SRS.

... its easy to PRETEND to be an expert even against real experts.

... people will throw out the "every persons life is unique and you cant generalize" excuse.

You can get some weird entertainment value from the fantasy content, if that's your interest. Its not mine. Hopefully you don't derive the same pleasure from people's pain.

I don't really care if the problem can be generalized or not. I will not apply any solution when it carries such impact, in whole or in part, without going through every last aspect of it. My situation in life vis-a-vis transsexuality may not be unique, but I'm going to approach it as if it were.

The fact that the majority of people take a tortured path to acceptance and decisions makes a good case for the expertise and approach of those here who are supportive. Since that's the typical - if not the necessary path - how should I regard your condescending cheerleading for transition, your "expertise", as your approach is contrary to virtually everything I've read from honest-to-God experts as well as every transitioned or transitioning woman with whom I've been in personal contact?

Were it not for the fact that several people I respect say you are correct on a few points, I wouldn't read your responses. As it is, I continue to read them looking for those things I do not understand. You don't make it easy. Too bad, too, assuming my friends are right about you, because you're missing more people than you are helping.

Lea

[kimdl93]

Emmi, a wise person said that "if you can't make up your mind, don't. Yes, you will continue to feel conflicted, but you may just have to live with that inner conflict, with the help of your therapist, until you are able to make a choice, on way or the other.

[Frances]

Emmi, a wise person said that "if you can't make up your mind, don't. Yes, you will continue to feel conflicted, but you may just have to live with that inner conflict, with the help of your therapist, until you are able to make a choice, on way or the other.

I agree with that. Ambivalence is a fertile ground for psychological breakthroughs. The worst thing someone can do is pretend it's not there. It must be resolved first, in my opinion. Anyway, that was the approach of my gender clinic, where the patient/client was never suggested paths to take apart from exploring the ambivalence.

[amielts]

If you are around TS women that are ACTUALLY transitioning (not talking about the baby step, excuse crowd now) you will notice a lot of them exhibit traits that would suggest they are self centered, on guard, narsisistic, know it all, uncarring, and a lot of other dissonant traits. These are for the most part a way to cope with the changes that they are going through. I might add that nearly all these women share a common aspect. They still have a penis.

That leads me to one of the common themes that I have said many times. There is really only one way to get past these traits and back to a carring healthy and normal person. Care to take a guess?
PS for the bad guessers the answer happens to be SRS. SRS changes everything people.

Are you saying that all pre-op transwomen are selfish and abnormal? This does not match my own experiences of 12 years in the trans community.
SRS also does not change everything for many transwomen I have known.

[amielts]

Yes, Crossdressers share having a penis with Transexuals too, like a belly button, the cosmetic difference is wether you have an inny or an outy .
The vast majorty of MtoF and intersexed SRS performed use the Penile Inversion method, which is basicly in crude terms turning a penis inside out to achive an artificail vagina. Some people need the psycological comfort that SRS brings, others may not, or may make the decision later in life, so continually trash talking CD's at every oppertunity does not help th OP and promotes bad feelings within the forums.

What a great reality check for transsexual separatists. As someone once said, most transsexual separatists were once privileged white males, who due to having lots of money from their previous life, get to have SRS within 1-2 years of transition typically, and really can't understand why some people cannot afford SRS after 20 years, similar to how a multimillionaire cannot understand why someone on a minimum wage can't afford to go overseas whenever they want to.

[Frances]

What a great reality check for transsexual separatists. As someone once said, most transsexual separatists were once privileged white males, who due to having lots of money from their previous life, get to have SRS within 1-2 years of transition typically, and really can't understand why some people cannot afford SRS after 20 years, similar to how a multimillionaire cannot understand why someone on a minimum wage can't afford to go overseas whenever they want to.

Wow... what? Really? This sounds disconnected from real and lived experiences to me.

[ReineD]

Living partly as a male, is living as a male , regardless of your self defined identity.. and for the obviously severely dysphoric ts people around here, that are not using this site as a fantasy, some things that are said about fulfilling and satisfying life choices are well meaning but counterproductive..

I disagree that living partly as a male means living totally as a male. This might be true for a binary-TS/woman like you and others who are or have transitioned (you understandably would be utterly miserable living for even 5 minutes as a male), but it is not true for people who are non-binary gender. Just the fact they are non-binary means that nothing about them is fully male. It's not just the mode of presentation that identifies someone, it is their feelings, their personalities, their preferences, their attitudes. There is nothing about my SO and others like her that is "totally" male, even when she is naked. A person is made up of infinitely more layers than just the outward shell.

It's difficult to come into this section and say, "I'm choosing not to transition because I think it is right for ME and my other priorities in life". It's much easier to say the decision was made for the family. But, I tend to give such people the benefit of doubt and believe that whatever course they decide to take is the best decision they can make for themselves and not just their families, and because of this they will find peace. Otherwise, they would transition.

None of us can look into people's souls and decide who they fundamentally are inside. We can only support the decisions they make, and suggest as Kathryn mentions in another thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?173381-Great-quote-from-Jennifer-Boylan&p=2827688&viewfull=1#post2827688) (quoting Jeniffer Boylan), that they make their decisions authentically and with a whole heart.

[Melody Moore]

What a great reality check for transsexual separatists. As someone once said, most transsexual separatists were once privileged white males, who due to having lots of money from their previous life, get to have SRS within 1-2 years of transition typically, and really can't understand why some people cannot afford SRS after 20 years, similar to how a multimillionaire cannot understand why someone on a minimum wage can't afford to go overseas whenever they want to.

Is all I will say is you don't have no clue about transsexuals and why some really like to keep themselves
separated from the transgender & LGBT alphabet soup mix. Unlike those who identify as crossdressers,
transsexuals have a whole complex range of health issues to deal with, including anxiety & depression
because there is no escaping who you are as a transsexual. We live 24/7 as our true selves, unlike a CDer
who is a male at work by day and a crossdresser behind closed doors at night. Most Crossdressers I have
met have no concept of the realities that we have had to endure for majority of our lives. Which includes
rejection, discrimination, vilification and abuse which can escalate stress, anxiety & depression issues which
often leads to genital mutilation, self harm & suicide. An estimated 49% of transsexuals attempt suicide
purely because of what they must deal with being the people they truly are.

if someone decides that transition is too stressful and not for them, that is OK, I can accept and respect that.
But don't your dare try and tell me how life is for members of the transsexual community. Many trans women
who were poor eventually found away to fund surgery, so some get thrown a lifeline and privilege, position &
wealth has absolutely nothing to do with why we are so protective of our support services and our legal rights.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Melody,

Well done. I couldn't agree with you more.


Julia

[ReineD]

What a great reality check for transsexual separatists. As someone once said, most transsexual separatists were once privileged white males, who due to having lots of money from their previous life, get to have SRS within 1-2 years of transition typically, and really can't understand why some people cannot afford SRS after 20 years, similar to how a multimillionaire cannot understand why someone on a minimum wage can't afford to go overseas whenever they want to.

You're painting with a broad brush. There are transitioning/transitioned TSs (whether or not they are financially privileged), who are well grounded and who remember their own gender ID struggles. I don't like the term, "TS separatist". It reeks of bitterness and reverse snobbery. If you've run into such narrow-minded people in your own life, just ignore them and make friends with TSs whose views are more flexible.

[Melody Moore]

I don't like the term, "TS separatist". It reeks of bitterness and reverse snobbery.
Being branded a transsexual separatist is a huge insult to many of us who are VERY accepting of gender diversity.

I am very inclusive of the transsexual, transgender & gender diverse communities health & well being in my
work in support and activism. But it has been clearly proven now in reports that those with Gender Identity
Disorder or Transsexualism will suffer the most out of all the elements in the LGBT & Gender Diverse spectrum
and it is a huge slap in the face to be treated by others you stand up for & who don't really deserve your support.

[Kathryn Martin]

What about privileged white women who have worked hard to earn a living and have saved up some to change their sex 2-3 years following their transition decision. You see, when I came to Canada 27 years ago I had no money, a family and only my willingness to work hard, which I did. There were times where my spouse and I did not eat because we could only afford to feed the children. It was not easy at all. So don't say things about people who can afford to pay for their needs that they don't have understanding for those that cannot. The other problem is that you apparently don't understand the difference between gender variance and transsexualism. Clearly, every single standard developed around transsexualism has as one of it's fundamental components the need to fix their sex.

I know that there are many who do not seek SRS, they prefer having their penis or they cannot afford the reassignment surgery. If it is the former, then that is their choice but it is also their choice to present as a woman with a male sex organ. For the latter I often wonder if the underlying issues are quite different than a simple statement that minimum wage survival is their barrier to be whole. There are some for whom inability to work is a true barrier. But even for those who cannot ever afford it there are foundations as Melody pointed out that will assist or cover SRS if necessary.

I find your statements broad and quite misleading. Especially because you do not know the individual circumstances of those that disagree with you. Getting to the point where I could finally transition and pay for it cost me 42 years of my life. A huge price to pay!


What a great reality check for transsexual separatists. As someone once said, most transsexual separatists were once privileged white males, who due to having lots of money from their previous life, get to have SRS within 1-2 years of transition typically, and really can't understand why some people cannot afford SRS after 20 years, similar to how a multimillionaire cannot understand why someone on a minimum wage can't afford to go overseas whenever they want to.

[Katesback]

Amielts:

When I got SRS a few years ago I paid $7500.00 in Thailand by a well known doctor. I am sure his price has gone up but it probably is not too much more. Lets say for example the price is $13,000. Add the other expenses and it still costs less than some of the cheapest new cars. I dont know about you but thats not a whole lot of money. I mean really it is not. I have herd a lot of people say they cant afford SRS but then you see they own a lot of expensive things. I remember not long ago a girl said that and you look at her avatar pic and you see some really expensive things in her garage. Oh a favorite was a girl that would go to the support group meetings and do the wine and complain about not having money. Of course she would then talk about all the damm video game crap she spent money on. Kind of funny isnt it? Or the smoker that cant afford SRS. Never mind the costs of a years smoking is probably 50% of the cost of SRS.
So the cant afford it is probably about 30% accurate for those that say this. The rest of them cant afford it because they choose not to afford it!

Katie

PS: Because someone actually does something that of which so few actually do does not make them an elitiest. It simply means they did it!

[Rianna Humble]

I disagree that living partly as a male means living totally as a male. This might be true for a binary-TS/woman like you and others who are or have transitioned (you understandably would be utterly miserable living for even 5 minutes as a male), but it is not true for people who are non-binary gender.

Hi Reine, although you may think that you disagree with what Kaitlyb wrote, you have actually echoed her words from the part you apparently missed in her post where she said:

This is not true of non ts people...people who self identify as dual natured simply do not have this problem...they negotiate between themselves and loved ones and that's got its own set of problems and issues, big ones....but for this group, the option to live a totally fulfilled and authentic life is there as a male with lots of femme time, but its actually got nothing to do with the transsexuals that come here to get support around the issue of figuring out how to escape their male lives.

Kaitlyn's words were true in their context - which was that of (MtF) transsexual people who are trying to live a compromise between their true gender and their perceived role in society - but as you and she both say in almost identical words, they do not apply to someone who is non transsexual and is dual gendered.

I never condemn someone who says that they are trying to live up to what they understand of their obligations and doesn't feel that transition is an option for them at this time, but that does not mean that I believe that denying their true self is going to bring them peace.

In my not so humble opinion, this forum is not here for us to be cheerleaders for one path or another. If we are serious about wanting to offer support, that must include drawing attention to problems that may lie ahead on a person's path in life.

Transition is neither an easy road to tread nor a universal panacea, Sometimes, however, it can be kinder to our loved ones to go ahead than to cause them grief through our suffering.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I disagree that living partly as a male means living totally as a male. This might be true for a binary-TS/woman like you and others who are or have transitioned (you understandably would be utterly miserable living for even 5 minutes as a male), but it is not true for people who are non-binary gender. Just the fact they are non-binary means that nothing about them is fully male. It's not just the mode of presentation that identifies someone, it is their feelings, their personalities, their preferences, their attitudes. There is nothing about my SO and others like her that is "totally" male, even when she is naked. A person is made up of infinitely more layers than just the outward shell.

It's difficult to come into this section and say, "I'm choosing not to transition because I think it is right for ME and my other priorities in life". It's much easier to say the decision was made for the family. But, I tend to give such people the benefit of doubt and believe that whatever course they decide to take is the best decision they can make for themselves and not just their families, and because of this they will find peace. Otherwise, they would transition.

None of us can look into people's souls and decide who they fundamentally are inside. We can only support the decisions they make, and suggest as Kathryn mentions in another thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?173381-Great-quote-from-Jennifer-Boylan&p=2827688&viewfull=1#post2827688) (quoting Jeniffer Boylan), that they make their decisions authentically and with a whole heart.

I never ever ever have tried to look into people's souls and decide anything...I'm like a broken record... Its up to each person....pls don't pin that on me.:hugs:

When i said "living as a male" i didn't use the word totally...i think that word would add something that isnt in my intent...

My intent is to say a person that is transsexual is a binary gendered person, in a predominantly binary gendered world... she (mtf) gets zero out of continuing a male life...learning this truth is a long saga for each of us..no matter how hard we try...body parts, relationships, jobs...all things will fall against this creeping feeling of emptiness

A bigendered person can comfortably keep their male name, their male job, their functioning thrusting penis(ahem) if they desire, they can feminize themselves to suit themselves, feminize when and how they want...sounds great to me...perhaps i overstate my case when i say its a male life..but to most of the world it is...and because this particular place is a very female place, it can get lost in the discussion that many of the folks here quietly live very full male lives ...

This idea is INDEPENDENT of how someone identifies themselves...how many times do i have to say to you that I totally and completely agree with you that each one of us has every single right to decide who and what they are?

[ReineD]

I never ever ever have tried to look into people's souls and decide anything...I'm like a broken record... Its up to each person....pls don't pin that on me.:hugs:

OK, sorry. The word "totally" was just mine. :p

[Inna]

HEY guys I think we have expanded on the original post Waaaaaaaaay to broadly and in the process hijacked Emmis post and her honest and troubled plea for support. PLEASE go back to supporting EMMI in the efforts she may find a solution to her dilemma

[Badtranny]

It's not just the mode of presentation that identifies someone, it is their feelings, their personalities, their preferences, their attitudes.

Yes Yes YES.

This in one sentence is the point I try to make in almost every post. (damn you RD, if brevity is the soul of wit, I am witless indeed)

An authentic gender dysphoric (no matter the degree) wears feminine (or masculine) things because that's how they feel like expressing themselves. Sometimes a more masculine expression is more appropriate or even more comfortable. Sometimes it's a kick to get dressed to the nines. The people who allow themselves to live authentic lives have moved beyond the frantic obsession with panties or heels. It has simply become an honest expression of how they feel at any given time. There maybe some discretion but no more shame and dark secrets. They accept themselves for WHO they are, whoever that may be. Someday the world will not care who's wearing what but I'm convinced that there will still be deeply closeted CD's.

[ReineD]

HEY guys I think we have expanded on the original post Waaaaaaaaay to broadly and in the process hijacked Emmis post and her honest and troubled plea for support. PLEASE go back to supporting EMMI in the efforts she may find a solution to her dilemma

Inna, I think that a discussion about where people fit along the gender spectrum is appropriate to Emmi's situation and she may, in fact, find it quite helpful. :)



I never condemn someone who says that they are trying to live up to what they understand of their obligations and doesn't feel that transition is an option for them at this time, but that does not mean that I believe that denying their true self is going to bring them peace.

I agree if they need to transition, if they abhor everything about themselves that is male yet are denying themselves for their families, they won't find peace. But is this Emmi's situation? If there are also a number of other reasons for not transitioning, some of them external yet others are internal, then surely they've determined their priorities? Sorry if my prior post was not clear.




A bigendered person can comfortably keep their male name, their male job, their functioning thrusting penis(ahem) if they desire, they can feminize themselves to suit themselves, feminize when and how they want...sounds great to me...perhaps i overstate my case when i say its a male life..but to most of the world it is...and because this particular place is a very female place, it can get lost in the discussion that many of the folks here quietly live very full male lives ...

This idea is INDEPENDENT of how someone identifies themselves...how many times do i have to say to you that I totally and completely agree with you that each one of us has every single right to decide who and what they are?

Sorry I had to run out earlier and didn't finish my comment to you.

I'm afraid it is all too easy to read criticism in forum posts, when no such criticism was intended. But such is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. All we can do is go back and forth until we've clarified our thoughts.

:hugs:

I just wanted to add that life switching back and forth is not necessarily ideal for individuals who are dualgender, not without some adjustment. The switching may well be satisfactory for some CDers who enjoy being girly but who predominately see themselves as male. I don't live in my SO's skin so I can't say for sure, but it is my impression that she dislikes being taken as a man in a dress, even if others are respectful. Yet, she does not sufficiently identify as a woman to live full time stealth and go through electrolysis, FFS, and SRS. She has her very own gender identity that is on a different plane than the binary, yet she must live in a world that only understands the binary. So, she has made her decisions and she chooses to accept social convention by adapting herself to the rules, all the while always knowing who she is inside. I can't say that realistically there is any other choice unless someone wants to become an activist.


(damn you RD, if brevity is the soul of wit, I am witless indeed)

Lol. Likewise. :p

[Kelly DeWinter]

What a mean thing to say..basically this is just the cd version of Kate...
Is the benefit of curing other birth defects like cleft lip something you denigrate as well? you have no idea what you are talking about...



Kaitlyn,

My comment was not ment to dispariage anyone with a physical hadicap or ANYONE who undergoes SRS. In fact my history here is one of support for everyone CD/TG/TS and anyo other initials anyone chooses to use. My point is that regardless of what is done cosmeticly , it still is what it is. If someone desires surgery to make their outward apperance match their inward apperance, I say go for it ! I for one believe thay your sex is deterined both mentally AND physically however at this time there is only so much that can be done cosmeticly and chemicaly. My biggest wish is that these posts would not degenerate into a CD vs TS because the same people take these threads away from what the OP started and THEN the thread gets closed. So please accept a sincere apology.

Kelly

[Melody Moore]

If someone desires surgery to make their outward apperance match their inward apperance, I say go for it ! I for one believe thay your sex is deterined both mentally AND physically however at this time there is only so much that can be done cosmeticly and chemicaly. My biggest wish is that these posts would not degenerate into a CD vs TS because the same people take these threads away from what the OP started and THEN the thread gets closed.

The reason why these threads deteriorate into a CD vs TS thing is because of people who try and tell
us transsexuals what is and is not the benefit of SRS, or you try and define who and what we are about
and what the benefits of SRS are when you have no clue about what these procedures really do for us.

I can assure you that SRS does a lot more than being chemical & cosmetic, there are huge
emotional and health & well being benefits to sex reassignment surgery that crossdressers
like yourself couldn't ever hope to comprehend let alone have any credible understanding.

[emmicd]

The one thing I realize being transgendered and having a hard time integrating it into my life in a healthy way is that I have been made to feel guilty being this way since I was a young child. It seems society has a narrow view of male and female and there is very little flexibility. It is the wrong message and I believe if there was more widespread understanding and acceptance of transgender issues then the decision to be true to who you are would not have to be such an agonizing and painful dilemma. If we were able to show compassion rather than rejection and scorn we would see less tragedy and more hope in a transsexual's life. The other quality that comes to mind that a transsexual who transitions needs is courage! It takes a tremendous amount of courage for a transsexual to achieve their true gender on the inside and the outside and I admire that quality very much. It is what makes us stronger. I also believe that most transsexuals who transition wish to still protect and care for their families without question.

[arbon]

The other quality that comes to mind that a transsexual who transitions needs is courage!

Or desperation..................................

[amielts]

Is all I will say is you don't have no clue about transsexuals and why some really like to keep themselves
separated from the transgender & LGBT alphabet soup mix. Unlike those who identify as crossdressers,
transsexuals have a whole complex range of health issues to deal with, including anxiety & depression
because there is no escaping who you are as a transsexual. We live 24/7 as our true selves, unlike a CDer
who is a male at work by day and a crossdresser behind closed doors at night. Most Crossdressers I have
met have no concept of the realities that we have had to endure for majority of our lives. Which includes
rejection, discrimination, vilification and abuse which can escalate stress, anxiety & depression issues which
often leads to genital mutilation, self harm & suicide. An estimated 49% of transsexuals attempt suicide
purely because of what they must deal with being the people they truly are.

I take that you assumed I was a CD. I am actually a transitioned TS living full time as a woman. I have suffered all the problems you listed.

But I really can't take separatists. We do have different issues, but separatism is not the way to deal with it. CDers also suffer from rejection, discrimination, vilification and abuse, anxiety & depression from what I know, and guess what, the public sees all of us THE SAME, so if it's OK to vilify CDers, our lives won't be that great either.

I also despise another type of separatist - those who use SRS as criterion of separation. There is currently a battle in the TS community itself (nothing to do with the broader TG community) between us inclusivists and them separatists, and one that I believe we should win, for the sake of our future.

[ReineD]

It seems society has a narrow view of male and female and there is very little flexibility.

This is true, and it has been this way in major cultures throughout history. We can rack our brains to figure out why the world is so unforgiving towards trans individuals, but I don't think this will help to change anything. It is improving though and hopefully the generation after this one will have an easier time with it.



It takes a tremendous amount of courage for a transsexual to achieve their true gender on the inside and the outside and I admire that quality very much. It is what makes us stronger. I also believe that most transsexuals who transition wish to still protect and care for their families without question.

This is also very true. :hugs:




I also despise another type of separatist - those who use SRS as criterion of separation. There is currently a battle in the TS community itself (nothing to do with the broader TG community) between us inclusivists and them separatists, and one that I believe we should win, for the sake of our future.

It's unfortunate you're in a milieu with such divisiveness. You need to know that not every group is this way.

My SO belongs to a rather large group that is all inclusive. So inclusive, in fact, that apart from the newer CDers whose skills are yet undeveloped, I have no clue who has had SRS or not, who is TS or not, who lives full time, part time, or only dresses occasionally, save for the few who obviously are on hormones and have had FFS. They don't walk around comparing what is in their pants and they are friendly and welcoming to everyone.

You should consider making new friends and drop the narrow minded people. :p

[Melody Moore]

I also despise another type of separatist - those who use SRS as criterion of separation. There is currently a battle in the TS community itself (nothing to do with the broader TG community) between us inclusivists and them separatists, and one that I believe we should win, for the sake of our future.

Your really don't get it do you? There is no separatism with me especially on the basis of SRS. However having said that
SRS is also something that helps transsexuals a lot with the anxiety & depression issues that lead to self harm, mutilation
and suicide. My focus & commitment is to the health and the well being of the transsexual, transgender & GENDER DIVERSE
communities. I am supported by NGOs, and Queensland health and MANY people in the Australian trans community because
I AM SO INCLUSIVE. But it is blatantly obvious why crossdressers who are in the closet or just dress up every now & again
do NOT suffer the same levels of mental health issues as transsexuals who haven't escaped these issues ever in their lives.

So this is why I support those who are in transition the most because that is where the help is really needed.

I have data in front of me that can back up what I am saying, but your statements are all based around broad assumptions.

[amielts]

Your really don't get it do you? There is no separatism with me especially on the basis of SRS.
Then my comment re SRS-separatism is not aimed at you. It wasn't aimed at anybody here in the beginning anyway. But there are SRS-separatists out there indeed.

I don't hang out with SRS separatists. But the very fact that they can speak their nonsense unopposed is dangerous for all of us. Ignoring them will not help.

[nikkijo]

Fact is that for one to transition with a 100% effort they really do need to be........selfish, self centered, and not care what other people think.

The trans community is filled with people that dont give it a 100% effort (back to the talkers). Transition is the most difficult thing one can ever go through and it really does take a 100% effort and that inclused being selfish in the eyes of other people. It is what it is. Perhaps that why so few actually transition. They just dont have it in them to do it for themselves.

Katie

will agree 100%... an d the whole misery loves company statement is also very true


Amielts:

When I got SRS a few years ago I paid $7500.00 in Thailand by a well known doctor. I am sure his price has gone up but it probably is not too much more. Lets say for example the price is $13,000. Add the other expenses and it still costs less than some of the cheapest new cars. I dont know about you but thats not a whole lot of money. I mean really it is not. I have herd a lot of people say they cant afford SRS but then you see they own a lot of expensive things. I remember not long ago a girl said that and you look at her avatar pic and you see some really expensive things in her garage. Oh a favorite was a girl that would go to the support group meetings and do the wine and complain about not having money. Of course she would then talk about all the damm video game crap she spent money on. Kind of funny isnt it? Or the smoker that cant afford SRS. Never mind the costs of a years smoking is probably 50% of the cost of SRS.
So the cant afford it is probably about 30% accurate for those that say this. The rest of them cant afford it because they choose not to afford it!

Katie

PS: Because someone actually does something that of which so few actually do does not make them an elitiest. It simply means they did it!


or because some of us have those toys from a prior job that allowed us to purchase them and our current debt to income level is way to high and we have BILLS and 13K is alot to not have when theres no work for 4 months a year.....

[Starling]

...Someday the world will not care who's wearing what...

I'm not so sure the world will ever become wardrobe-blind. In my life I've seen too many promising trends bite the dust.

In fact, I don't see it happening without a total transformation in the idea of gender, as clothing has so much to do with defining the roles. And it's the blurring of the roles (e.g., maybe a dude will accidentally be attracted to another dude) that really upsets people, not the clothes per se.

So failing that total sea change, I have a feeling that gender dysphoria will always bring confusion, pain and guilt regardless of any slackening of the dress code, because it entails discovering who we really are and disturbing the interdepedencies we have set up on faulty (not to say false) premises.

:) Lallie

[MC-lite]

The one thing I realize being transgendered and having a hard time integrating it into my life in a healthy way is that I have been made to feel guilty being this way since I was a young child.

My mother was -very- harsh to me when I started to exhibit transgendered behavior at a very young age. (around 8) When I transitioned, We talked about it. She carried guilt around for suppressing who I really was for a -very- long time.

Many years later when She went to college, She took a course in sexual psychology. When She read the chapter on Gender Dysphoria, She started to cry. She realized that it had described me to a tee!


It seems society has a narrow view of male and female and there is very little flexibility.

Only in the older humans who believe that your gender is determined by what sex organs you posess. The younger ones (and some of the more learned elders) are realizing that, for true happiness, a synergy has to exist between the body and the mind, and Transgendered folk do not have the luxury of having their minds match their bodies.


It is the wrong message and I believe if there was more widespread understanding and acceptance of transgender issues then the decision to be true to who you are would not have to be such an agonizing and painful dilemma.

People are starting to come around. But, it depends on where you are. In some places, bigotry is strong. Especially when it is driven by religious dogma. (Your karma ran over my dogma...:eek:)


If we were able to show compassion rather than rejection and scorn we would see less tragedy and more hope in a transsexual's life.

That's true. But we must be prepared to teach those who don't understand what we are. We must show them the compassion that we wish to receive. Some will respond well, some will not.


The other quality that comes to mind that a transsexual who transitions needs is courage! It takes a tremendous amount of courage for a transsexual to achieve their true gender on the inside and the outside and I admire that quality very much. It is what makes us stronger. I also believe that most transsexuals who transition wish to still protect and care for their families without question.

True on both points. Yes, it takes courage, but it's no different than any other illness. You have to treat it. You have no choice. (Well...you do. You could choose to live the rest of your life, suffering in pain. But that's not a sensible choice. Unless you're a masochist. And there are other forums for that particular brand of pleasure...:doh:)

And yes, We do wish to protect and care for our families. But sometimes, the entire family unit suffers because one member is sick and unhappy. So what do you do? Martyr yourself for the sake of their feelings? Deny yourself happiness because you wish to protect them from something that's not your fault in the first place? Maybe, in a cosmic sense, your transition is a part of their spiritual growth.
By denying that, you rob them of a growth experience which may be key to their spiritual evolution. None of us can say for sure what our purpose is on this earth. Certainly not me.

We have a lot to learn as a species. Those of us who realize that fact will continue to learn. The rest of us will simply fall by the wayside, doomed to repeating our mistakes for the rest of our lives, and possibly for the rest of eternity.

[arbon]

Then my comment re SRS-separatism is not aimed at you. It wasn't aimed at anybody here in the beginning anyway. But there are SRS-separatists out there indeed.

I don't hang out with SRS separatists. But the very fact that they can speak their nonsense unopposed is dangerous for all of us. Ignoring them will not help.

Then why was it posted on this thread? What your talking about really has nothing to do with the OP.

[Kelly DeWinter]

The reason why these threads deteriorate into a CD vs TS thing is because of people who try and tell
us transsexuals what is and is not the benefit of SRS, or you try and define who and what we are about
and what the benefits of SRS are when you have no clue about what these procedures really do for us.

I can assure you that SRS does a lot more than being chemical & cosmetic, there are huge
emotional and health & well being benefits to sex reassignment surgery that crossdressers
like yourself couldn't ever hope to comprehend let alone have any credible understanding.

I would think that most people who have been here for a while have a very clear picture of what the benefits of SRS are. A lot of people seriously consider SRS and for either public or private reasons deterine the benefits for themselves. Any reasonable person can read about both the detriments AND the benefits of SRS by just going on the internet. In addition competent gender therapist can futher help someone make a decision.

If you have read what others including myself have said here and in the past in other threads you WILL find that we are understanding and compasionate. Taking offence because of one phrase or opinion is very imature.

"I can assure you that SRS does a lot more than being chemical & cosmetic, there are huge emotional and health & well being benefits to sex reassignment surgery that crossdressers like yourself couldn't ever hope to comprehend let alone have any credible understanding"

This statement is inane, What about gender therapists ? They have no usderstanding or compassion because they have not had SRS ? Most TS start out as Crossdressers, which by the way includes you, which by your statement puts you by your own definition in the category who could not understand ? It's this circular reasoning and continual bashing of crossdressers that makes a thread deteriorate.