a bit of a rant

[kimdl93]

I read throug the variety of comments on the thread about angry ex's and laughed aloud (not I didn't LOL ).

I am constantly appalled by those CDrs who seem think that GGs might even remotely be jealous of them. I started out typing that it amazes me that these folks on the one hand profess to want a relationship with an understanding GG....and then I realized that there is no way, someone who thinks like that is going to have any kind of relationship with anything but thier own mirror.

Those of us who are in or have had long term relationships are living proof that smart, attractive and empathetic women can find happines with a CD partner. But, it requires a smart, attractive and empathetic CDr as well. Those who possess an oddly distorted sense of self probably couldn't meet a real GG if you locked them in a room together.

I've read several posts lately about how maybe we CDrs or TG persons are better off alone. My conviction is that the people who adhere to this point of view are alone for reasons other than the fact that they are cross dressers or transgendered. It may be that socially inept or self absorbed people have hard time getting dates.

I feel for peoples' loneliness, but darn it, there are some basic interpersonal skills and social skills needed to form relationships. some of our members, without picking on anyone in particular, are apparently lacking in these areas.

sorry for the rant...


Kim

PS. as some of you know, my ex outed me...rather far and wide. It hasn't had a bit of impact on my life. In fact, it probably made me take therapy and my relationships with others more seriously. And oddly, though she probably still dislikes me, about twice a year I have long conversations with my ex. I always hang up feeling a bit sad that we didn't make it work, but glad for what I have.

[ReineD]

I've read several posts lately about how maybe we CDrs or TG persons are better off alone. My conviction is that the people who adhere to this point of view are alone for reasons other than the fact that they are cross dressers or transgendered. It may be that socially inept or self absorbed people have hard time getting dates.

I feel for peoples' loneliness, but darn it, there are some basic interpersonal skills and social skills needed to form relationships. some of our members, without picking on anyone in particular, are apparently lacking in these areas.


Well said, Kim. I've also often wondered about the CDers who've had disastrous experiences with GGs, while at the same time posting they are more attractive than most GGs so therefore the reason for their relationship's demise was the GG's jealousy. :rolleyes:

How can any GG be happy in a relationship with such a self-involved person, whether he CDs or not?

It's not about being jealous. It's about living with someone who thinks himself better than others.

[Miriam-J]

Thanks for saying it, and for saying it so well, Kim. I've had very similar thoughts recently. Solid relationships are only possible if we care about our partner at least as much as ourselves, and have great, open communication about issues. I've tired of the threads with seemingly self-absorbed CDs complaining about their failed or failing relationships without a focus on the most important facets of the relationship.

Miriam

[Marleena]

I read throug the variety of comments on the thread about angry ex's and laughed aloud (not I didn't LOL ).

I am constantly appalled by those CDrs who seem think that GGs might even remotely be jealous of them. I started out typing that it amazes me that these folks on the one hand profess to want a relationship with an understanding GG....and then I realized that there is no way, someone who thinks like that is going to have any kind of relationship with anything but thier own mirror.

Those of us who are in or have had long term relationships are living proof that smart, attractive and empathetic women can find happines with a CD partner. But, it requires a smart, attractive and empathetic CDr as well. Those who possess an oddly distorted sense of self probably couldn't meet a real GG if you locked them in a room together.



I accept your rant Kim.:)

I ranted the total opposite about how maybe TG girls should remain single. I hate seeing marriage and relationship breakups due to Cding so that set me off. I've seen some very nice members have their SO's do a 180 on them or just not accept it all or the dreaded DADT. Now I'm not blaming the GG's because it ain't easy having a TG SO. What it does take is work (like any marriage issue) and communication too. Being upfront when starting into a serious relationship is key too. We have lots of members with accepting/supportive SO's but sometimes the CDing ends the relationship for whatever reason.

No GG will ever be jealous of a hmmm .."fake" girl so that is nonsense.

[whowhatwhen]

I'd assume it's compliments, I mean, who doesn't like a nice compliment?
:)

[Jackiefl]

Very well said Kimdl93

[ReineD]

There are dozens of posts from GGs on this forum...real women..actual women...real posts... about them feeling intimidated by a CD looking better than them "dammit" in a dress, thin legs, etc.
How do you account for that?

To clarify, before I get lynched...Yes I agree there are some seriously delusional Cds out there. Laughably so in some cases. But there is also something that, in the right circumstances GGs find unsettling when their partner can fit into a dress they would like to.
I am not being deliberatly provocative. There are posts from GGs to this effect.

Well, I can take a crack at this with an example.

This happened some years ago. We had a new GG who happened to have weighed more than her husband. She said she was jealous of the way he looked while dressed. She felt he looked better than her and this made her feel insecure. I asked her if she also felt insecure when she was standing next to a GG who was taller and skinnier than her. She thought about it and then agreed this was the case as well. I further asked her, if she also took an hour to do her hair, apply makeup, put on a cute outfit with new shoes and nice jewelry, would she still believe her husband looked better than her. She finally relaxed and said, "Alsolutely not". She then came to the conclusion it was not her husband that she was jealous of, it had to do with insecurities about her own body image.

The concept of a husband who enjoys presenting as the same gender as his wife is in a completely new realm to many GGs and they need to sort through their own feelings, they need to develop a whole new way of looking at themselves and their relationships, before they can pinpoint exactly what is bothering them. You'll seldom find a GG who is accustomed to the idea that her husband dresses, say that she is jealous of him. You'll never find a GG who is comfortable with her body image (no matter her weight or height), who will say she is jealous of her husband.

If it is strictly a matter of weight or height, then this is a different matter. After I had my kids, I resented that my ex seemingly used to be able to eat anything he wanted, while I felt I couldn't indulge in that banana split if I wanted to lose the post-pregnancy bulge. But something like this is a far removal from believing that a husband fundamentally looks "better than a GG". :p

I hope this helps.

[STACY B]

I thought about the same thing ,,An I dont realy think its the CDing that makes alot of folks break up ,,I think its just laziness ,,Maybe the CD does look better than there SO ,, But alot of times esspecialy if the relationship is already kinda up an down its just a matter of looking for a good excuse to bail ,,May the SO dont realy want to get in shape or dont want to dress up or put on makeup or fix there hair ? Mite have just been the rite time to say hey ,, Lets call it quits ? Alot of relationships have so much other stuff to deal with that the CD,,TG , Issues are just the straw that broke the ol camels back ? But there are alot that make it the ones that realy love each other an not just the pay check or just a marriage of convenence . S o hell if it wasn't ment to be ? Thats just my thoughts ?

[Frédérique]

I've read several posts lately about how maybe we CDrs or TG persons are better off alone. My conviction is that the people who adhere to this point of view are alone for reasons other than the fact that they are cross dressers or transgendered. It may be that socially inept or self absorbed people have hard time getting dates.

You fail to realize that there are some people who are comfortable alone, and they NEED their solitude. Into this solitary equation an outsider is neither welcome nor necessary. There are other things to do with one’s life besides throw half of it away in a vain attempt to reproduce, but if you’re not tuned in to this wavelength you’ll never know what you’re missing…

I could easily go off on a RANT of my own about this subject – will you tell me why it’s so damned important to get dates, find someone to share one’s life, and then assume all of the trappings of co-existential or marital bliss? For the umpteenth time, I’ve done all that, and I am happy to be here, NOW, as I am, happy in my chosen lifestyle. Is procreation so important that I’m looked down upon for being different, or free from responsibility? As soon as I declare that I'm happy with my unattached state, some member will float a (to them) reassuring blurb that I still have time to find the right girl, my soul-mate, my one and only. I don’t need it, OK?

Crossdressing is just another reason why I don’t feel the desire to get “out” there and hunt for suitable sexual partners. I’m happy as I am, conscious of the fact that few women would wish to deal with one such as I, in fact it’s unfair to HER for many obvious reasons. My crossdressing is important to me, and I wouldn’t expect anyone else to understand why – in the parlance of the day, “my needs have been met,” so why sour things (mine or theirs)?


I feel for peoples' loneliness, but darn it, there are some basic interpersonal skills and social skills needed to form relationships. some of our members, without picking on anyone in particular, are apparently lacking in these areas.

If I met you face-to-face, I can assure you that you would be shocked and amazed by my “social skills.” I don’t hide in a corner, but I’m not loud and assertive, either. I can slip in and out of pleasant conversation easily and APPEAR normal to everyone around me; in fact I may be less lonely than my “interpersonal” companions, since I am an incorporated being. The fact that the latter is beyond the comprehension of most individuals I meet makes me smile – little do “they” know that I’m thanking my lucky stars, giggling at the irony. If you really feel for peoples’ loneliness, then you should stop ranting and reach out more – a kind word goes a long way, you know…

Sorry, Kim – you raise some good points, but I’m getting tired of being looked down upon for wanting to stay within myself. I don’t feel the least bit bound, or obliged, to interact socially just to put everyone at ease, nor do I feel the urge to cast my net (socially) and catch an unfortunate girl or two just to prove my masculinity. There are other ways to “be,” and crossdressing is a form of searching, or questioning, these things, or these precepts, that everyone else takes for granted…
:straightface:

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have never, ever thought much less said I looked better than my former partners; in my mind, comparing myself (a male who wears dresses) to a woman is like comparing apples and oranges. I am also a very affectionate, loving person, and I always made it known that I loved them very much and found them attractive (and I certainly did.)

For some folks, yes finding a partner is indeed that important; for someone who is as passionate and lonely as myself, the loneliness can be very painful in a way that most folks who have never felt that way could really understand.

[ReineD]

I’m getting tired of being looked down upon for wanting to stay within myself. I don’t feel the least bit bound, or obliged, to interact socially just to put everyone at ease, nor do I feel the urge to cast my net (socially) and catch an unfortunate girl or two just to prove my masculinity.

Freddy, I think that Kim's point was adressed to the CDers who don't have well-developed social skills or who are self-indulgent to the point of believing themselves better looking than GGs, who then complain that it is impossible to find GGs who will accept the CDing.

I agree with you, some people prefer solitude and this has no bearing on their social skills.

[Eryn]

...We had a new GG who happened to have weighed more than her husband. She said she was jealous of the way he looked while dressed. She felt he looked better than her and this made her feel insecure. I asked her if she also felt insecure when she was standing next to a GG who was taller and skinnier than her. She thought about it and then agreed this was the case as well. I further asked her, if she also took an hour to do her hair, apply makeup, put on a cute outfit with new shoes and nice jewelry, would she still believe her husband looked better than her. She finally relaxed and said, "Alsolutely not". She then came to the conclusion it was not her husband that she was jealous of, it had to do with insecurities about her own body image.

This is an excellent example! CDers are, by our nature, very enthusiastic about our wardrobe and makeup and it is unrealistic to expect anyone to have such enthusiasm day in and day out. I may have one or two individual features that a GG might envy, but in the whole there is no contest.

[ReineD]

I may have one or two individual features that a GG might envy, but in the whole there is no contest.

There's no contest with any human attribute, really. There are GGs and GMs who are model quality with fantastic bodies and who belong on the runway or the silver screen, but they are not loved more in their personal lives than the rest of us who are average looking. Each one of us has a combination of qualities and traits that sets us apart from others and for which we are uniquely loved. There is never any contest, as far as I'm concerned. :)

[Shananigans]

Good rant, Kim. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I take your rant as addressing the single people that place themselves in their own solitude. In other words, people that may write on a forum for validation about being single...usually stressing how no one can understand their CDing. I didn't take it that you were saying all people need to be romantically involved. But, perhaps, people that stress their CDing as an isolating factor and stress their singledom may have deeper things going on than meets the eye. I sometimes see a CD describe his/her CDing as self-isolating, society does not understand, society persecutes...and, they are choosing to be single. I wonder if writing these things on a forum are a way of validating this line of thinking? I don't know. These are just some things I thought about after reading your post and some responses.

I feel you are rather spot on. I do see that some GGs indicate they get "jealous" when seeing their SO. But, it seems to often be rooted in weight insecurities. It's a little strange to imagine true jealousy of someone you are having sex/a relationship with...but, I am sure there are exceptions. I know I usually compare myself to people like me, so I am usually envious of other GGs when I am envious. I relate to them the most. But, I do have feelings of jealousy towards men too. I got really irritated with a guy that took over my position as "head of the class" for a few weeks. ...Then, I destroyed him...just kidding...we became good friends...oh, and I beat him. But, overall, in THESE relationships, things are always pretty complicated. So, I am almost positive that in 99.9% of relationships here, there is more going on than physical jealousy. And, as you pointed out, I am usually affirmed in my suspicions when responses concentrate on their supposed exceptional looks.

I have told myself to be much nicer and to watch my words, because I think these people are probably insecure. Many people fish for compliments here...and, if you tell people you are better looking than your SO and get responses validating it (even if these people have not seen your SO), they feel better. It used to really irritate me, but then I realized I felt a little sorry for them. So, I'd just keep in mind when you get irritated too...I have been there a lot. But, isn't it nice being secure with your looks and accomplishments? Imagine not being secure and needing other people to validate you. So, yeah, I'm one of those GGs that isn't jealous...I have lots of friends here that are the sweetest people on Earth and who have helped me through so much (CDing and non-CDing related)...but, then, there are people here that make me feel a little sad. I don't think it's sad people are single (which, I don't think you are saying), but I do think it's sad that people obviously have a lot of deep issues that they aren't really dealing with and are searching for people online to make them feel better about it.

We are lucky to have good support systems (including fantastic SOs). Some people don't need a relationship to have a fantastic support system. But, it's pretty rare on here that I see someone with lots of support. Strong support systems are a good indicator that you will make it out well in many different situations that life throws at you. I feel lucky. I admire people that do not "need" support systems, or have a strong one outside of a romantic involvement. But, personally, I feel pretty lucky...and, I feel even luckier when I read some threads by members on here. Count your blessings.

[Jessica86]

I've seen tons of these threads "in response." I haven't been able to locate a single thread where someone said they look better than a GG. I think there are dressers who have the physical appeal, but not the whole appeal if that makes any sense. Still trying to locate where this is all keeps coming from though.

[crossdressersfriend GG]

I'm content with minimal make up and jeans and t shirt, probably because I dont' need to look overly feminine to BE feminine??

It's not the clothes that kill the relationship it's the people and if you don't have the skills then CDer or not you aren't going to be good at any relationship.

[PretzelGirl]

I am a believer that we have to own the aspects of our live. It is easy to find reasons you can't do something, but it sure puts a damper on life. We all have negative things in our lives. The positive people here most likely do like me, do the best you can with the negative thing facing you and then set it aside and move on to the positive things. If you have done your best, why continue to dwell on it?

[daarleane]

It sounds like your ex did you a big favor for the wrong reasons. I can't begin to understand what it must have been like initially but I hoped it worked out for the best. P.S. I agree with what you are saying in your "rant". I don't believe that you can have a real one on one relationship and one of the parties be totally self centered. From experience, long term relationships require a lot of effort from both parties. Being selfish is not an attribute.

[Marleena]

I've seen tons of these threads "in response." I haven't been able to locate a single thread where someone said they look better than a GG. I think there are dressers who have the physical appeal, but not the whole appeal if that makes any sense. Still trying to locate where this is all keeps coming from though.

Jessica it could be comments taken of out of context to assume jealousy. Like wife says "you look better in that dress than me", "You're more girlie than me", etc. Just guessing here.

[Shananigans]

I've seen tons of these threads "in response." I haven't been able to locate a single thread where someone said they look better than a GG. I think there are dressers who have the physical appeal, but not the whole appeal if that makes any sense. Still trying to locate where this is all keeps coming from though.

I remember a few that I believe were in the Loved Ones section. Ones that I recall particularly well were people responding to threads in which a CD was having a relationship problem by saying deragatory statement about GGs. Usually these statements are along the lines of "CDs look better, GGs are fat and wear jeans, GGs in my life are jealous of me, etc." These comments were, of course, made by people with no avatar of themselves lol. Many people (CD, TS, and GGs) had a little laugh fest at the comments and the lack of avatar (and counter response).

Then, there are people that just get mad that GGs wear jeans with no makeup sometimes. (That's been here on this part of the forum). Their logic is that they don't get to wear what they want, so why should GGs. It usually takes a couple people to say, "Uhm, hello...I have a vagina. I am at a normal BMI range for my height, so I am not fat. I enjoy pilates. Heck, sometimes I wear jeans and no makeup to get the groceries because I do not feel a need to compensate before leaving. Well, maybe in my new pair of bright red skinny jeans, in my snakeskin "pretty bloom sandals", topped with an off-the-shoulder bold black and white tunic shirt, and finished with an arm full of bangles, flowing straight hair, crisp/mod makeup, and a structure purse. Hmm...this is me off shoppIng as a GG looking and filling quite the definition of fabulous. (Though I still my styles from Lucky). No dresses and high heels involved to make me the image of perfection. No compensation. Just well placed makeup and clothing style to play up "skinny girl" look. I never thought I'd be wearing the stuff I am now.

So, it takes a few posts that I read through on GG bashing...and, I get a little confused because you'd think GGs were these dungeon lepers in loafers and blunt cuts that are battling the CD...for some unknown reason. But, honestly, I pop into the hate thread where the "dungeon lepers" are supposed to attack...and, I arrive in BeBe and Juicy Couture, stomping on some ballet flats like I do pilates every day or sumpin'...

Oh, heck...I don't look like a Dungeon Leper...just like an attractive girl that wears stylish clothes, which include jeans. And, oh no, I am 5'10 and a size 6. Oh heck I must be extraordinarily angry on here and ranting anout my SO. Nope...you may wish she was your girl, but she's mine. She's a hottie...and, together, we turn heads when out.

I'm pretty sure that makes us the best GG an CD complement. Two nice representatives of each party looking lovely and living under one roof.

As soon as you bring up these points to the "GG bashers," they read my post, find my flickr, and contemplate ways not to hate their lives. Not everyone fits into their square boxes...my SO thinks I am hot and I find her delicious. No War of the Genders here.

[Badtranny]

I've read several posts lately about how maybe we CDrs or TG persons are better off alone. My conviction is that the people who adhere to this point of view are alone for reasons other than the fact that they are cross dressers or transgendered. It may be that socially inept or self absorbed people have hard time getting dates.

...and again somebody spouting my material better than I do.

You go girl.

[Organza]

Well, I can take a crack at this with an example.

This happened some years ago. We had a new GG who happened to have weighed more than her husband. She said she was jealous of the way he looked while dressed. She felt he looked better than her and this made her feel insecure. I asked her if she also felt insecure when she was standing next to a GG who was taller and skinnier than her. She thought about it and then agreed this was the case as well. I further asked her, if she also took an hour to do her hair, apply makeup, put on a cute outfit with new shoes and nice jewelry, would she still believe her husband looked better than her. She finally relaxed and said, "Alsolutely not". She then came to the conclusion it was not her husband that she was jealous of, it had to do with insecurities about her own body image.

The concept of a husband who enjoys presenting as the same gender as his wife is in a completely new realm to many GGs and they need to sort through their own feelings, they need to develop a whole new way of looking at themselves and their relationships, before they can pinpoint exactly what is bothering them. You'll seldom find a GG who is accustomed to the idea that her husband dresses, say that she is jealous of him. You'll never find a GG who is comfortable with her body image (no matter her weight or height), who will say she is jealous of her husband.

If it is strictly a matter of weight or height, then this is a different matter. After I had my kids, I resented that my ex seemingly used to be able to eat anything he wanted, while I felt I couldn't indulge in that banana split if I wanted to lose the post-pregnancy bulge. But something like this is a far removal from believing that a husband fundamentally looks "better than a GG". :p

I hope this helps.

OK...My cognitive dissonance at this moment is that I'm envious of Reine because she has too much wisdom for one human being :)
Lisa

[Cheryl T]

I am constantly appalled by those CDrs who seem think that GGs might even remotely be jealous of them.

Those of us who are in or have had long term relationships are living proof that smart, attractive and empathetic women can find happines with a CD partner. But, it requires a smart, attractive and empathetic CDr as well.

I have to disagree with your statement Kim. When I first came out to my wife and we were discussing and learning together I was constantly surprised to see the jealousy in her eyes.
I kept reassuring her that I was not compensating for anything that she felt she lacked, either physically or emotionally. I told her I was not competing with her.
Her response was that women grow up constantly competing with other women. As young girls they are always trying to outdo their friends, then their "enemies" (LOL) as they compete for boyfriends and husbands. She said it's as ingrained as anything else. Even though I never tried to dress nicer, sexier or whatever it was always still on a competitive level for her.
Either I looked better in the same dress (her opinion), or my hair was done nicer (it's a wig after all), or my legs looked better in those heels or whatever. I never saw it as a competition, but she did.
She was jealous of me at times simply because of how I looked.

She is fully supportive, my biggest fan, my constant companion and my love.
After 7+ years of knowing Cheryl and helping her grow, my wife still at times feels that competition....so, yes the jealousy does exist, it is real. It's just a Girl thing....

[sherri]

Over the years I have consistently campaigned against self-absorption in this forum, so I hope this opinion isn't interpreted that way. Anyway, my favorite local hangout is a predominantly lesbian club, a casual bar with a laid back atmosphere and a friendly crowd. If you spend any time there you can't help but notice that the majority of the regulars tend to be -- how shall I say this? -- well, big girls. In other words, they're packing some pounds, to say the least. Moreover, fashion doesn't seem to be a big priority for most of them. I couldn't begin to explain the phenomenon, but it is what it is.

Occasionally I will get dressy for an outing, but most of the time when I go to this club, I keep it pretty casual, especially in the summer. I make an effort to lose the winter pounds, I tan, I put on nails, etc., and for makeup I aim more for the girl-next-door look than the dq thing. A typical outfit is a denim skirt above the knee, a knit top, wedge heels or sandals, a little silver jewelry, etc. Nothing fancy, and trust me, what i see in the mirror doesn't hold a candle to the beauty of a GG. So I'm always surprised when some woman tells me how jealous she is of my looks, even though it happens quite a bit. Sometimes I sense that it's just a sweet girl being nice, but more often it seems to be pretty sincere. I never really know what to do with the information other than to thank them profusely, protest the notion, and return the compliment.

One thing I keep in mind is that even if there seems to be some truth in the comment, it's only a skin-deep thing, know what I'm sayin'? When it comes to the inner person, I don't see how any GG could possibly feel inferior to a girl wannabe. If anything, she should feel flattered. And too, I can't help but wonder that if she really feels like that, why doesn't she make an effort to spruce up her own image? With just a bit more effort and change in habits, she could easily outshine me every which way. Dunno. Maybe it's just not a priority for her, which is perfectly fine.

Either way, it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. No amount of flattery is gonna make me think I'm something I'm not.

[kimdl93]

Actually, Freddy, I have not doubt that you have very appropriate social skills, and I don't for a moment believe that every person's choice of a life alone is necessarily an indication that they are either socially inept or anti social. When I was divorced, I asked my widowed mother how she coped with the loneliness. Her response was that there's a difference between loneliness and solitude, and that she enjoyed the solitude in her life.

More to the point, however, I recalled your treads on solitude and living alone, but these didn't elicit my response. The specific line that got my goat was contained in a response to a thread in Loved Ones, regarding difficulties with an ex wife. One indvidual 's response was :"I think the main reason they (ex's) get so B & T is that we have way better looking butts and legs than them!!!"

Having been through a divorce and having been outed rather widely by my ex during that really difficult time, I know the source of her justified anger. It had nothing to do with my legs or her butt.

In any case, if I've offended you or anyone else, I apologize. That was not my intent...but it was a rant, and rants, like driveby shootings can hit innocent bystanders.

[ReineD]

Moreover, fashion doesn't seem to be a big priority for most of them [lesbians]. I couldn't begin to explain the phenomenon, but it is what it is.

This has been my observation as well. I've heard of the term "lipstick lesbian", but have run into very few lesbians who dress in a manner that is designed to appeal to men. My SO and I went to a rather large lesbian bar for lunch a few weeks ago, in a major city. They have the best sweet potato fries ever! Anyway, my SO was the best dressed there. The other patrons mostly had short hair, no makeup, and were wearing jeans, Tshirts, and sneakers. No flashing leg, cute shoes, and plunging necklines for them! lol. Is this a surprise?

Why would a woman who is into other women pander to the male-focused fashion industry? Why would she give in to the beauty ideals that give her and every other woman the message, since childhood, that on top of being skinny, she must alter the appearance of her face and hair with paint and sprays, and show off the parts of her body that is like eye-candy to men, in order to be attractive? :p

If a woman wants to attract men and not other women, by all means she can adorn herself in such a way. But why on earth would a lesbian be interested in this?

Is my feminism showing? lol

[sherri]

This has been my observation as well. I've heard of the term "lipstick lesbian", but have run into very few lesbians who dress in a manner that is designed to appeal to men. My SO and I went to a rather large lesbian bar for lunch a few weeks ago, in a major city. They have the best sweet potato fries ever! Anyway, my SO was the best dressed there. The other patrons mostly had short hair, no makeup, and were wearing jeans, Tshirts, and sneakers. No flashing leg, cute shoes, and plunging necklines for them! lol. Is this a surprise?

Why would a woman who is into other women pander to the male-focused fashion industry? Why would she give in to the beauty ideals that give her and every other woman the message, since childhood, that on top of being skinny, she must alter the appearance of her face and hair with paint and sprays, and show off the parts of her body that is like eye-candy to men, in order to be attractive? :p

If a woman wants to attract men and not other women, by all means she can adorn herself in such a way. But why on earth would a lesbian be interested in this?

Is my feminism showing? lolWell, I guess that blows the notion that women dress for other women out of the water. :-) Actually, I think it's your heterosexuality showing, not your feminism. :-) At the club I notice they have those highly suggestive bimbo beer company posters up in the pool table area, and whenever the occasional group of dressed up young hotties come around they get lots of attention. All of which leads me to think that either there's a lesbian dynamic in play that's over my head, or most of them are just too lazy to make the effort. ;-P

[ReineD]

Well, I guess that blows the notion that women dress for other women out of the water. :-) Actually, I think it's your heterosexuality showing, not your feminism. :-) At the club I notice they have those highly suggestive bimbo beer company posters up in the pool table area, and whenever the occasional group of dressed up young hotties come around they get lots of attention. All of which leads me to think that either there's a lesbian dynamic in play that's over my head, or most of them are just too lazy to make the effort. ;-P

Hmm. I've got to say I've not seen a lot of young hotties at the place we go to. The young hotties who are into guys don't tend to enjoy hanging out in places where their aren't any. :p

There's another nightclub we've gone to, that is more of a LGBT/alternative hangout with drag shows (both DQs and DKs). It's a college town and lots of straight students go there too. There is a group of 4-5 young hotties who make a big play out of dancing with each other suggestively. But believe me, they aren't out to impress the lesbians. You should see all the guys' eyes pop out of their heads when they see them grind together. :D

At to women dressing sexy for each other? I've never bought this. Women don't impress other women by showing leg and T&A. lol. Granted, maybe in some circles clothing is a status symbol and some women enjoy showing off their designer outfits, but that's different.

Sorry Kim, for taking this a bit off track.

[kimdl93]

Sorry Kim, for taking this a bit off track.

Not a problem. I think the discussion had run its course by now anyway.

[Shananigans]

I get thrown onto the "lipstick lesbian" bus, even though I am bi. Maybe I lean slightly towards attraction towards women...Idk because I am happy with my SO. Anyway, I think the "classic" lesbians at easily noticeable and pointed out. But, there are lots and lots that are just as interested in fashion and makeup. We don't get as much press though. I am not attracted to women that generally do the short hair and more male look. It doesn't mean I wouldnt try a relationship with this person, but off the bat I'll be attracted to a girl that is more "feminine."

I don't generally dress to attract men. If I was really concerned about attracting a ton of men, I would just walk around naked. I like my figure and I like the clothes that I like...so, that's why I wear them. I have also not had a shortage of women attracted to me...women that like women also really like girlie girls. I do often get approached by women that are more short hair, no makeup, baggy clothes.,.they tend to usually be aggressors. (More likely to openly hit on you). However, I kind of get a little shock value because I tend to look pretty girlie, but I definitely don't act it sometimes. But, again, the stereotypical lesbian gets more press. But, girls that love girls come in all forms. But, I put a lot on personality...so, though my main attraction would be to the girl in a dress and heels, she would quickly lose my interest if her personality sucked. The people I am least attracted to are male bodybuilders...I just don't like that look...but, oddly enough I had a major crush on a Girl that was super fit (not bodybuilder or anything though), and it was mainly because if her personality. (She was kind of a b*tch and it drove me crazy). So, it's all over the place in the gay community...just as much as it is in the straight community. I fly more under the radar, but there's a ton of us out there.

This has been my observation as well. I've heard of the term "lipstick lesbian", but have run into very few lesbians who dress in a manner that is designed to appeal to men. My SO and I went to a rather large lesbian bar for lunch a few weeks ago, in a major city. They have the best sweet potato fries ever! Anyway, my SO was the best dressed there. The other patrons mostly had short hair, no makeup, and were wearing jeans, Tshirts, and sneakers. No flashing leg, cute shoes, and plunging necklines for them! lol. Is this a surprise?

Why would a woman who is into other women pander to the male-focused fashion industry? Why would she give in to the beauty ideals that give her and every other woman the message, since childhood, that on top of being skinny, she must alter the appearance of her face and hair with paint and sprays, and show off the parts of her body that is like eye-candy to men, in order to be attractive? :p

If a woman wants to attract men and not other women, by all means she can adorn herself in such a way. But why on earth would a lesbian be interested in this?

Is my feminism showing? lol

[Shananigans]

P.S. I do like T&A because I am a little gay :( lol

[kimdl93]

No. It has not. Let me expound pontifically if I may? :D

While I agree that many guys on here like the notion of living alone, in the closet, out of sight, I agree that it's deeper than just being a CD 'in closet'; however, that said, there is no way on God's green earth that I, nor you, my CD peers, will EVER look more stunning or beautiful than any GG. It goes deeper than looks; it's poise, attitude, nonchalance, ambivalence, that we as men, can never emulate, although we CAN assimilate their characteristics; to a very small Infinitesimal fraction of a degree.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Shananigans]

Meh, I think you have to take it on an individual basis. There are many beautiful GGs in the world, and there are many beautiful TG people in the world. It is hard for me to choose just one group over the other. It is still hard for me to imagine being actually jealous of someone you have sex with, but I don't know or understand all of the problems that go into other people's relationships. I think my SO looks very attractive en femme...so, I don't get jealous...we just have sex. Pretty simple. But, there are plenty of hot GGs in the world...and, there are plenty of not-so-hot GGs in the world. There are plenty of hot TG people in the world...and, there are plenty if not-so-hot TG people in the world. I mean, a lot of the MTF TSs look just like GGs...so, how am I supposed to pick one group or the other? I can't. It's an individual basis thing.


No. It has not. Let me expound pontifically if I may? :D

While I agree that many guys on here like the notion of living alone, in the closet, out of sight, I agree that it's deeper than just being a CD 'in closet'; however, that said, there is no way on God's green earth that I, nor you, my CD peers, will EVER look more stunning or beautiful than any GG. It goes deeper than looks; it's poise, attitude, nonchalance, ambivalence, that we as men, can never emulate, although we CAN assimilate their characteristics; to a very small Infinitesimal fraction of a degree.

[Amanda22]

Kim, this is a much-needed thread and I think should be 'stickied" for quick reference by new members. I think CDing is frequently blamed for struggling relationships. I contend that if I conduct myself in a way which causes people to want to spend time with me, then the whole cross dressing thing easily and quickly becomes just a quirk of my personality from others' point of view. Similarly, when a relationship supposedly ends because of the revelation of cross dressing, I feel that dressing really had nothing to do with it. The relationship was failing to begin with. I pretty strongly feel that cross dressing is targeted for blame to often. We should strive to be people who others want to be around.

[Wonderwho]

In many cases the breakup is not the result of CDing but the stress of the breakup is cause for a ramp up of CDing due to the stress, this then is fuel to feed the furnace of the breakup.
Envy is a poison that we all can be affected by, if you look at yourself to long in the mirror you can forget who is looking back.

[Jannette H]

I believe that the the relationship that some have or had was on the edge and teetering and a party in the relationship used CDing to kick it over the edge. I don't think it is used much any more as in the past. It happened to me.

[Raqqy]

Some one is always going to have something that is better on them than it is on you. Fact of life. It has just occured to me that those who cross dress and passionately proclaim that we (GG) are jealous of not only their appearance but their prowess with men are most likely suffering from their own insecurities.

There are people who can only feel good about themselves by finding others to be lacking.