Dressing like a s**t - why?

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Rather than sidetrack the other thread, I thought I'd start a new one and ask this question because it really puzzles me and slightly disturbs me.

I welcome comments from everyone!

Some MTF CD'ers have expressed the desire to dress sl***y and to look sexy, even to be alluring and desirable to straight guys.

What I cannot understand is why a heterosexual male would want to dress in such a way and to want to attract or sexually arouse another guy.

From a GG point of view, s****y dressing is not in the least bit sexy, its vulgar and unattractive and for a man to dress this way seems to me to be disrespectful of women generally.

My understanding of CD'ing is that you feel the need to express your feminine side - so what are you saying by dressing like a *****? that your feminine side is a s**t???

I can, to an extent, understand wanting to dress and be pretty, and feminine and look nice but the whole streetwalker but I dont get at all.

[Polly Sharp]

Several possibilities. One is that they want to attract male attention for sexual reasons, another is that they may feel 'abused' to look like that. No doubt there are more reasons. To many it's a fantasy thing.

The one I go for is my own reason for dressing that way at times, 'cos I want to! There are times when I've seen someone out there, dressed in fishnets or whatever. I want to dress in a similar way, to 'be them' in my mind for a few moments.

When I first started buying 'mens magazines' they were pretty tame, showing women stripping down to underwear. I would try to find clothing that was similar to how they had started the strip, and work my way down from there. back then I thought it was a sexual thing for me, but it wasn't. I'll not go into details apart from saying that I just didn't feel like doing things like that when dressed. The inner thrill from looking like the woman in the photo, or in the street, was what I sought.

Not all GG's think that dressing s****y is vulgar and unattractive either, I go out sometimes and wonder why some of the girls drinking in town don't get pneumonia!

[Babeba]

To add to this, I want to say that there is a huge HUGE difference between being ****ty and sexy... And a lot of it has to do with attitude. Sl•ttiness implies a lack of control over ones' own sexuality, that a sl•t is there to be used and that's that... They are a sex object rather than a sensual partner.

I do not think that sex or being sexy is wrong, it can be very self affirming to be powerful and sexiness can give that confidence. But being sl•utty crosses that line and takes the power away from the person perceived as a ****. It gives permission for others to use that person... Hence the idea that if a woman is dressed provocatively and is raped or assaulted, she was 'asking for it.' I think that crossdressers who deliberately seek to evoke sl•ttiness (rather than being sexy, confident and strong) are showing a very anti-woman attitude.

[Julia_in_Pa]

I hope it is alright for me to reply given that you did not include my classification.

In my opinion it is a males sexual drive combined with his cross dressing desires that equal how he dresses.

If he is sexually turned on by what he sees in the mirror when he is dressed he therefore fulfills his need for sexual arousal, brings himself to climax and the cycle completes itself until the next time.
This is typical sexual fetish behavior and what you read concerning ****ty dressing is actually part of his pathology.

I don't agree with it, I don't like it and I fully agree that it's disrespectful of women.
With that said the reason behind it is as ancient as human sexual behavior is because that's exactly what it is.

Sexual fetishism is a compulsion not unlike Trichotillomania which is the compulsion of ripping out one's own hair.
It has to be handled as another male need for sexual arousal and nothing more.

Sadly men have been sexualizing women for eons and it is only recently in the grand scheme of all of this that women have gained notably more respect and station in society.
Attempt to place this in the context of typical male behavior that it is.
That isn't an excuse for the behavior but merely and explanation of it.


Julia

[Babeba]

Several possibilities. One is that they want to attract male attention for sexual reasons, another is that they may feel 'abused' to look like that.

Not all GG's think that dressing s****y is vulgar and unattractive either, I go out sometimes and wonder why some of the girls drinking in town don't get pneumonia!

:) I have totally seen those British girls for their nights out, I've even been there and done that. The thing is, either they don't think they are being ****ty, they think they're sexy instead, or they have so bought into the idea they cannot control their own sexual power that they must be ****s to get attention. Either case has a very different reason for dressing provocatively.

I once remember being in the line of a bathroom at a club in Canada, and hearing a girl in there gather her friends up by shouting, 'let's go, ****s!' I cannot tell you how much it bothered me. It totally blew my mind to realize a woman would actually call a friend that. I cannot think of another phrase that is more offensive other than a more vulgar way to get the idea of being a **** across.

[Kate Simmons]

Offhand I's say it's a mixture of a person's perceived view of the feminine ideal, fantasy and role playing. I can do all of the above personally but it usually doesn't win friends and influence people. I,personally, can fulfill either the male or female role with little problem. The roles I'm talking about are the so called "norm" with regard to societal conditioning, however. Sometimes the deviation of those roles comes from the desire to act independently and contrary to what really is so. Over the years I have realized that if you really want to be like a woman, you need to open up your feelings and be kind, compassionate. caring and loving and have real family values. As a man I have realized that I am looked up to to provide leadership, security and caring for others in a way that makes family and people in general feel comfortable and have confidence in me and my decisions.

As a CD I fancy myself more as an adventurer and tomboy, albeit one who wants to look pretty. I guess in that respect I am a male feminist but that is my particular fantasy. Others portray women in a different way, sometimes one that is considered by society to be degrading but that is really the individual who creates, acts on and maintains that image, not the CD or TG population at large.

We honestly make a name for ourselves (even as a CD) by who we are and what we do. I do know that for the most part the members here are caring and loving people or I wouldn't have stuck around for 6 years. Sometimes we can go a little "crazy" being carried away with things just like anyone, however and that is real life.:)

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Julia of course your post is very welcome, sorry I didnt mean to exclude anyone - and your explanations are very interesting and make a lot of sense. I have amend the OP to include all -

Scarlet why would a hetro guy want to dress like that, go out and advertise himself/herself as sexually available? this would indicate to me that he was far from hetro

Polly, I appreciate that there are girls that go out on a weekend and wear so little clothing as to make themselves very s****y looking indeed - I guess the CD's who want to emulate them need some role models!

I started this reply and the site broke for me - so I'm trying again!

[Janet77]

Interesting question. I think Julia is probably right, it's mainly a fetish thing. I probably fall into that category. As a relative newbie to this forum, it has been interesting to me to observe the interaction between different types of members. There seem to be quite a few members who consider whatever their type of cross-dressing is as more "legitimate" than other members kind. GG's have always judged other women's dress and actions and labeled the ones they disapprove of as tarts, harlots, whatever. I think this is silly....Should all of us wear Mom jeans or Hillary Clinton pantsuits? Is it really necessary for us to judge and label each other?

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Janet I dont think that anyone's CD'ing style is more or less valid or legitimate but I think there are lines which shouldn't be crossed when going out in public. How people want to dress in their own homes is absolutely up to them, it is nobody's business but their own. However I do think that certain standards of dress should be maintained when going out in public for several reasons - for personal safety so you're not giving the wrong signals to other people - and so as not to give offence to other people in terms of indecency - and by that I dont mean CD'ing, I mean showing boobs, skirt up to the backside etc. These standards of decency I feel should apply to everyone - they are not gender specific.

I personally find it quite offensive to be 'treated' to an immense expanse of what we brits call "builder's bum cleavage" or a guy wearing shorts and no underwear, so his 'bits' dangle out of the leg of his shorts. Similarly I dont particularly want to see GG's bum cleavage either, particularly ghastly when there is a bright red thong firmly wedged in that cleavage! horrible!

[Janet77]

Janet I dont think that anyone's CD'ing style is more or less valid or legitimate but I think there are lines which shouldn't be crossed when going out in public. How people want to dress in their own homes is absolutely up to them, it is nobody's business but their own. However I do think that certain standards of dress should be maintained when going out in public for several reasons - for personal safety so you're not giving the wrong signals to other people - and so as not to give offence to other people in terms of indecency - and by that I dont mean CD'ing, I mean showing boobs, skirt up to the backside etc. These standards of decency I feel should apply to everyone - they are not gender specific.

I personally find it quite offensive to be 'treated' to an immense expanse of what we brits call "builder's bum cleavage" or a guy wearing shorts and no underwear, so his 'bits' dangle out of the leg of his shorts. Similarly I dont particularly want to see GG's bum cleavage either, particularly ghastly when there is a bright red thong firmly wedged in that cleavage! horrible!
Agree 100% about the dressing in public part. I rarely (well, never) go in public dressed, but if I ever do, it will definitely not be in something a Solid Gold dancer or a French maid would wear!

[Babeba]

Interesting question. I think Julia is probably right, it's mainly a fetish thing. I probably fall into that category. As a relative newbie to this forum, it has been interesting to me to observe the interaction between different types of members. There seem to be quite a few members who consider whatever their type of cross-dressing is as more "legitimate" than other members kind. GG's have always judged other women's dress and actions and labeled the ones they disapprove of as tarts, harlots, whatever. I think this is silly....Should all of us wear Mom jeans or Hillary Clinton pantsuits? Is it really necessary for us to judge and label each other?

I don't think you can put sl•t shame all at the door of GGs. If certain modes of dress were not taken as sl•tty by some men, would some women feel as though they were threatened by how other women dressed?

If there is a divide between **** and not **** clothes/actions, where is it? Are you suggesting that someone who wears pantsuits is obviously not a ****? Then who is a ****? How can that be defined in look? Why aim for **** (and the cultural baggage of sexual promiscuity and dirt that comes with it) and not somewhere in between 'Hilary Clinton Mom jeans' and ****? (and why is it do many people attack Hilary Clinton, one of the most powerful PERSONS in the world, and say she is not feminine? What is so threatening about her being a woman?)

And the big one I can't comprehend: if you respect the right of everyone to decide on their own actions and behaviours, why on earth would you aim to look (or be) ****ty?

Edit to add: I agree with you about it not being right to give someone else a label, Janet! And I don't mean to pick on you by quoting you. :)

I just don't understand how a GM who respects women can actively seek out being a ****- a second class citizen with nonself determination of her own sexuality. It doesn't seem like a healthy attitude.

[busker]

Janet I dont think that anyone's CD'ing style is more or less valid or legitimate but I think there are lines which shouldn't be crossed when going out in public. How people want to dress in their own homes is absolutely up to them, it is nobody's business but their own. However I do think that certain standards of dress should be maintained when going out in public for several reasons - for personal safety so you're not giving the wrong signals to other people - and so as not to give offence to other people in terms of indecency - and by that I dont mean CD'ing, I mean showing boobs, skirt up to the backside etc. These standards of decency I feel should apply to everyone - they are not gender specific.

I personally find it quite offensive to be 'treated' to an immense expanse of what we brits call "builder's bum cleavage" or a guy wearing shorts and no underwear, so his 'bits' dangle out of the leg of his shorts. Similarly I dont particularly want to see GG's bum cleavage either, particularly ghastly when there is a bright red thong firmly wedged in that cleavage! horrible!

we call it "plumbers butt here. Happily, I haven't seen any guys with his "junk" hanging out of his shorts. That would be rude.

[darla_g]

I find this an interesting thread. I tend to agree with the original premise of the thread.

I think the thing is that a lot of CDs especially when they are starting out tend to select clothes with their idea of a woman that they would like to be with. So secretly I think there is a tendency to want clothing from this ideal as well.

[Janet77]

Lots of people like to call attention to themselves in unflattering ways: The guy that blasts foul-mouthed rap music from his car stereo, the teenager with the T-Shirt with the offensive slogan, the morbidly-obese woman in skintight spandex pants. Dressing like a sl** is just another way to say "look at me!" I think that there are places where sexy clothes are appropriate, and places where the aren't (nightclub vs the office). In the context of this forum, I like seeing the way different girls dress.
And Babeba, for the record, no disrespect meant to Hillary, I was just describing her style of dress (conservative). I have never voted for a Republican in my life.

[Babeba]

I find this an interesting thread. I tend to agree with the original premise of the thread.

I think the thing is that a lot of CDs especially when they are starting out tend to select clothes with their idea of a woman that they would like to be with. So secretly I think there is a tendency to want clothing from this ideal as well.


I agree with this. And I think that we need to work on our society if it is one that idealizes a role of women based on objects of sexuality with little real say over what acts they perform because it is assumed they will do it anyway.

[ReineD]

Several things.

Not every male notices the finer facets of sex appeal and fashion. A good friend of mine (a GG) once told me, "If you want to get a guy's attention, make it big and make it red". :) I believe that CDers who dress this way, do so because this is what they find sexually appealing in women. They want to be sexually appealing, but not necessarily to men.

At first I was also confused, wondering why a straight CDer would dress in the same manner as a GG who wants to attract men. A hetero CDer is not attracted to the man so much as he is attracted to himself appearing as his definition of a sexy female. It is the thought that he is alluring when dressed that excites him, not an attraction to a particular man. I'm sure you've read threads in this forum where some of the hetero CDers take it one step further and place an image of a faceless man in their fantasies, as an accessory to the fantasy. Yet when the hetero CDers have actually gone out and tried having sex with men, they report feelings of disappointment (generally speaking), which is a confirmation it is about the appeal of the self as a sexy female rather than an attraction to men.

There are also CDers who wear risqué outfits without looking like sl*ts. I know this is highly subjective, but I've seen tasteful boudoir shots, where the CDers use the clothes to feel as feminine as they can. We can't assume that all such outfits produce the same amount of sexual release.

Babs ... I've never seen so many stars in your post. :p

EDIT
I repeated myself quite a bit in this post, sorry. I was writing it in segments.

[AKKaren]

:battingeyelashes:Just my observations...In a lifetime of observing women both near and far I have seen it all. Most women I have met don't do the sl%t look...plain and simple. Most like who they are and the feminine image they project. If a CD has this desire to project the sl%tty side, well, it's just another way we are seen in a bad light as a community. There's my 2.5 cents worth!

[KellyJameson]

Power is extremely addictive and it's effects are almost identical to the effects of cocaine.

Beauty is a form of power and feminine beauty is the apex of this power and it is rare to go out in public and not find it on display somewhere.

Feminine beauty for some inflames their desire adding to it's power and for many they will become enslaved by the one who possesses it, turning their personal power over to another and placing themselves at risk for exploitation.

Dressing s****y is an abuse of this power because you are using a persons sexuality against them to experience the high of your own addiction to the powers you possess.

I have abused this power creating an addiction to it that I fortunately was able to escape from, it is in my opinion extremely dangerous because the more you feed it the more it demands.

The more you feel inadequate as a person in relation to others the greater the likelihood you will become enslaved to it just as you have enslaved others with it. Power is always a double edged sword that cuts both ways turning master into slave.

[Badtranny]

Quite simple really. They dress in a way that pleases themselves. As soon as they see themselves in the mirror with the short skirt and stilettos, they pitch a tent in the skirt and they're back in sweat pants 15 minutes later.

[Pythos]

I think we are perhaps looking a tad bit too deep. I personally do not dress for the purpose of attracting men. I dress A ) for myself, and B ) to attract women that appreciate more feminine styles. I will wear mini skirts....because I look good in them. I get compliments in them, and so I wear them. There may have been a bit of fetish aspect to in the early stages, but not so much anymore.

I find mini skirts fun to wear, they are daring to say the least. I don't know why this is something that only women can enjoy. It is silly.

Now as far as dressing sl*&&y. I think that word has as many definitions and perimeters as there are people. For one an outfit can be S*&%&y, while to another it is just sexy, or even (gasp) attractive in a NON sexual manner.

People that dress in a manner that is disrespectful to women however, I don't think help women, or the idea of Cding becoming mainstream.

[Claire_tv_uk]

i like to dress quite trashy, and i find it quite insulting that someone thinks that i'm disrespecting women by doing so.

the problem lies with you if you think that a woman (or man in my case) dressed up like that impacts badly on you, you're implying that the public see a **** and think all women are like that,

i treat everyone as an individual, if i see a woman dressed up as a **** , i don't immediately assume all women are ****s.

the only person you represent is yourself,

for example if you see a drunken man staggering around town at 3am, being sick and shouting abuse at people, does that reflect badly on all men?

of course it doesn't.

[Babeba]

Reine, I'm assuming there is a filter on a certain word I don't normally use... :)

I think the thing that set me off on some big rants today wasn't just the idea of risqué outfits, it was the idea of cross dressers deliberately dressing up and embracing their inner sl•ts. Not some accidental slatternliness as you suggest, Pythos, or daring dress misinterpreted in the eye of the beholder, but full-on 'sometimes I am a good girl and sometimes I am a ****.' I am ranting against that idea of dressing/being a **** who is by the very definition of the word, a powerless sex object. Humph. Some ideal for women... also if a cross dresser is trying to actualize a fantasy woman she would like to be with, what sort of self esteem problem do you have by setting those sights on such a depressing target?

Edit to add: have any of you ever heard of **** walks? They're a type of social protest that tries to fight against the link between clothing and assumptions about what someone is trying to do by wearing those clothes. I think it is very positive to break the link between clothes and sexual availability and thereby decrease the culture of oppression that means a woman who is assaulted is not taken seriously if she dressed too 'provocatively.'

[janet54]

I agree with Pythos. She hit that right on!!!

[Vickie_CDTV]

As others have said, some men dress that way in private for their own pleasure (think some are a bit too judgmental about that, males are naturally driven to have orgasms and using dressing in private to accomplish that isn't exactly the most horrendous thing in the world, by a long shot.) Once TVF male finds it turns him on, whether it is dressing up like a young tramp, a drag queen or Hillary Clinton, he will just naturally go back to it time and again to get is natural, biologically driven fix. It doesn't mean he is a pedophile, serial killer, wife beater or bad person in general.

As for why some who are heterosexual but want males to find them attractive, it might be a way of validating their skills are dressing. I don't dress for this purpose myself, but for some it might be a way to prove they are skilled at dressing up and creating an illusion (that is, they are skilled enough to not only pass around other males but can create such a pleasing illusion it is good enough to actually turn the males on.) Can think of it in terms of a golfer making par (passing), as opposed to going under par (passable and look good enough to turn males on.)

[girltoy]

noun
1. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
2. Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.

I'm not entirely sure the term s*ut is appropriate? Provocative dress may be more appropriate, IMO. I think it's a combination of outfit, actions, and setting that would evoke the ideas of s***y. There are some little black dresses (LBDs) out there that are perfectly acceptable at a cocktail/dinner party or even the symphony that have a high hemline, plunging backs (and fronts). Yet, no one accuses the GG wearing them at said functions who is behaving in a refined manner of being a s**t. Take that same girl wearing the same dress, put her on the dance floor at a club with pounding music, give her a few strong drinks, see her grinding against someone else, and instantly she's being judged a s**t.

I frequent the goth/industrial/fetish clubs around SoCal and have seen some very provocative outfits on both men and women, and yet the term s**t never pops into my head, as the outfits I've seen are pretty normal for the setting. And, while the behavior may seem flirtatious at times, I've seen the same scantily clad women being fiercely loyal to their partner.

If a person is dressing in a manner that reveals a lot of skin in a setting where it is inappropriate, the bulk of society (men and women alike) affix labels, not necessarily taking the actions of that person into account. If a girl is walking to the store wearing short shorts and a halter top, she's displaying her body. Well, by the same token, so is a girl who's wearing a bikini on the beach as opposed to a 1 piece bathing suit. What makes one a s**t and the other one acceptable? Certain cuts and styles of clothing are designed to show off certain parts of the body. If a person has great looking legs, they want to display them, regardless of the motivation of them. Sometimes a girl wears a bikini because she wants to tan her body, not because she wants to try and hook a guy. Similarly, a male presenting as a female may want to show off their legs because they're proud of them, not necessarily because they want to land another male. Body builders wear muscle shirts because they're proud of the effort they've put into their bodies, it's hard to find sleeves that will fit around the muscles, they want to attract someone, etc.

As far as the CDing is concerned, yes, some of it is acting out on what is observed (or idealized) by the person dressing. Again, location and actions are called into play. Is the person dressed provocatively having dinner at Denny's, making eyes at everyone in the room? Or are they dressed in a pantsuit at a club, standing out against everyone dressed in a less conservative fashion?

Let's keep in mind that the term 's**t' is a derogatory term. Before we start mudslinging, take into account actions and location as well as attire.

[kandice74]

great thread silentpartner!!! i actually asked my so about this recently...i think for him it is a case of trying to hard. he feels that in order for him to feel feminine he has to go above and beyond looking like the "average girl". i was very confused by his desire to achieve such a sl**ty look because he very much prefers me covered up with very simple hair and makeup but i kinda got it when he said that he feels i dont need to look like a s**t to look like an attractive female (which of course made my heart smile). hope this helps :)

[rachel_rachel]

I too find it a bit offensive actually, If wanted to visit a crossedressers porn site i would... But i don't so i don't think i need to see it here. You may say if you don't like it then don't read or look but you can't preview the pictures beforehand.

I don't need to see a picture bent over a seat or barstool in the main forum, that's what the risky buiness page is for.. (and i will admit i have pictures in there)

[Miriam-J]

Very nice topic, Silentpartner. But it appears to me that this is not an issue that can be resolved without considering the many varieties that populate this forum, and it's even more difficult to resolve without resorting to labels that will offend one group or another. Let me take a shot at it with descriptions rather than labels.

As we've discussed many times on this forum, CDing includes a wide spectrum. There are those who identify as female, some of whom consider themselves on the path toward full female anatomy. There are those identify as male but who find fulfillment from just dressing as female, and the amount of time spent dressing en femme varies from once in a blue moon to nearly every day. There are those who identify as male but dress only in the manner described in this thread, and it appears to me that the frequency of this is more occasional than most of the previous group, and their choice of female dress is much more likely to be involved with sexual stimulation (but there are probably exceptions). I'm sure I'm missing some groupings, but it's clear to me that we really don't have inoffensive labels to attach to these groups so it's difficult to have a rational discussion. It's even more complicated since many in the latter group may transition to one of the other groups as they grow older.

Personally, I don't have a lot of interest in interactions with most in the latter group because I find their interests to be quite different from my own. I also worry since this is the CD expression most likely to offend the public, thus making it harder to find acceptance of my own expression. I have no problem with any sexual or dressing choices that do no harm to others, so I can accept this behavior in private and in appropriate public venues where others in the environment expect it and find it acceptable.

Miriam

[Wildaboutheels]

Standing ovation for both Kelly and girltoy. Kelly already did a standout job [IMO] discussing the power that women can and do hold, because by evolutionary design, men are easily "judgementally impaired" by a woman's physical attractiveness and choice of dress is certainly a PART of that. But ONLY a part. As girltoy conveyed quite well in her response as to perception.

Perception - just what is a ****??? As with everything, Perception plays an equal if not bigger part, in how we treat or interact with people doesn't it? Two girls at a bar for instance could have a guy come up and be very careful to treat each one equally. An hour later, one gal might think she is madly in love with him, and the other girl thinks he is pure pond scum. Perception.

Question: Could a man be a ****, simply because of WHAT he is wearing? Or could he at least be Hot? Because of what he is wearing?

I think a third possible reason might simply be mood? How many different moods might a guy or gal have? Don't most people dress for both occasion and their mood or just how good or bad they might feel at the time?

The only way to know for sure why anyone is dressed as they are, is to ASK them. Of course, they might not even know themselves.

[busker]

Several things.

Not every male notices the finer facets of sex appeal and fashion. A good friend of mine (a GG) once told me, "If you want to get a guy's attention, make it big and make it red". :) I believe that CDers who dress this way, do so because this is what they find sexually appealing in women. They want to be sexually appealing, but not necessarily to men.

At first I was also confused, wondering why a straight CDer would dress in the same manner as a GG who wants to attract men. A hetero CDer is not attracted to the man so much as he is attracted to himself appearing as his definition of a sexy female. It is the thought that he is alluring when dressed that excites him, not an attraction to a particular man. I'm sure you've read threads in this forum where some of the hetero CDers take it one step further and place an image of a faceless man in their fantasies, as an accessory to the fantasy. Yet when the hetero CDers have actually gone out and tried having sex with men, they report feelings of disappointment (generally speaking), which is a confirmation it is about the appeal of the self as a sexy female rather than an attraction to men.

There are also CDers who wear risqué outfits without looking like sl*ts. I know this is highly subjective, but I've seen tasteful boudoir shots, where the CDers use the clothes to feel as feminine as they can. We can't assume that all such outfits produce the same amount of sexual release.

Babs ... I've never seen so many stars in your post. :p

EDIT
I repeated myself quite a bit in this post, sorry. I was writing it in segments.

Does that mean someone is bringing their FIRE ENGINE? LOL

[DebbieL]

The thing to keep in mind is that many transgenders and cross-dressers keep their desires very secret, often not speaking of it to families, friends, even their own spouses are not told, before or after the marriage. We have several cross-dressers who have been married for a decade or more without telling their wives.

They have the desire to look and act like the women they consider beautiful and sexy. It's not even that they want to have sex with a partner. In fact, many cross-dressers spend decades only dressing up at home, while alone, when they know that no one will see them. They might bring a few "fetish items" to wear while on business trips, but are not willing to risk taking high heels, bras, corsets, or jewelry that might be exposed during a manual bag search.

As a result, they don't really get the training, coaching, and support of women who tell them what's hot and what's not. They often struggle for years with self esteem, experiencing shame and guilt for wanting to be/dress woman, and at the same time, loathing their male appearance.

To a cross-dresser, who only dresses up "for fun", women who wear loose pants, lose cotton blouses, and other "masculine" attire are not just less attractive, but are unattractive and even ugly. They can wear pants and ugly shoes as men, but if they want to wear a skirt and heels, they have to go to extreme measures to look as feminine as possible.

Transsexuals often move on. When they transition, wearing 3 inch heels and short skirts every single day begins to lose it's appeal. They begin to like the days when they can wear flats, jeans, and even looser pants. Even though they now have real breasts and have real cleavage to show, they don't want to show it as much, because they like seeing men look into their eyes.

Girls go through a whole process of maturing and socialization. Outfits that were "in" one year, are "****ty" the next year. Furthermore, what would be "****ty" in a shopping mall, would be "hot" in a club, and things that would be beautiful in church, would be overdone in a shopping mall or diner.

Women and transsexuals are very aware of dressing situation appropriate. Often, when invited to an unfamiliar restaurant or social event, one of the first questions is "What should I wear", and it's really important that they get it right. Wearing jeans to a charity fund raiser would get you.noticed in a bad way.

[busker]

girltoy

That is the slippery slope though. Why does a guy presenting as female and showing legs mean by that. Who is he trying to attract? Certainly not a woman? Even if she passes, only a lesbian might show interest but not too likely, so any efforts to stimulate viewers would seem to me to be seeking out a male for sex, because that is where the appreciative comments are likely to come from. I think that rationalizes the action--oh, look at my beautiful legs. And, we are not considering "dressing for their age". Why is a CD who is 50 dressing like a 20 y.o. rather than age appropriate, especially in public? Somehow, I think the person dressing in this fashion isn't going to be honest about their reasons if they intend to be in public places. what happens at home is an entirely different thing. Just an opinion.

Vickie, I have to ask the question of why someone would want to pass that badly that they would attract a male and take the possibility of getting their face kicked in by some male who not only didn't appreciate getting fooled, but fooled by a cross dresser? This seems to be a "case of asking for it".. That's Russian roulette with a round in every chamber. If they are validating their skills, there must be a GG in their life that would do the same validation based on experience, especially if they are out in public.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm sure you've read threads in this forum where some of the hetero CDers take it one step further and place an image of a faceless man in their fantasies, as an accessory to the fantasy. Yet when the hetero CDers have actually gone out and tried having sex with men, they report feelings of disappointment (generally speaking), which is a confirmation it is about the appeal of the self as a sexy female rather than an attraction to men.

A while back there was a rather large thread about being "bi when dressed" so I don't think we can or should assume that even most people here are 100% heterosexual.
I also think it depends on what that faceless man is doing, if he's using his faceless penis on you then 100% straight you're not. :P

I can't speak for everyone but in my case the faceless male is due to unresolved sexual orientation issues and repression.
*My faceless male has nothing to do with crossdressing, he does have a rockin' bod though!
;)

Not that that has anything to do with dressing like a "s**t", but I can see why bi or gay crossdressers would to attract the attention of men.

Maybe it's a domination/submission thing where they want to be objectified/used/whatever and they want to attract a man who will do things to them and that's that.
You can examine the sexist implications of that all day but I'm 99% sure it's not even a fleeting thought let alone any feeling of how women should look/act in the real world.

As another poster mentioned, it's going to take some time for a new CD to get into the hang of what is appropriate to wear in public.
I imagine this being harder if you're closeted and have no one to get advice from.

[girltoy]

Condensed version: stop judging based on clothes.

Long version:


That is the slippery slope though. Why does a guy presenting as female and showing legs mean by that. Who is he trying to attract? Certainly not a woman? Even if she passes, only a lesbian might show interest but not too likely, so any efforts to stimulate viewers would seem to me to be seeking out a male for sex, because that is where the appreciative comments are likely to come from. I think that rationalizes the action--oh, look at my beautiful legs. And, we are not considering "dressing for their age". Why is a CD who is 50 dressing like a 20 y.o. rather than age appropriate, especially in public? Somehow, I think the person dressing in this fashion isn't going to be honest about their reasons if they intend to be in public places. what happens at home is an entirely different thing. Just an opinion.

The fact that you disregarded my accompanying argument that there may be other motives for wearing something aside from trying to attract someone, my point remains valid. A painter doesn't paint for the purposes of attracting a mate, they do it to express themselves, much like a CDer dresses to express themselves. Making a statement that a CD male wearing a skirt and showing leg is done exclusively to attract a male is akin to saying that a person rides a motorcycle only to attract a biker. Statements like that completely disregard the person behind the appearance AND their motives.

Age appropriateness is not the topic on hand. However, it is related; why single out CDs that are 50 dressing like a 20 year old without asking why is a GG who is 50 dressing like a 20 y.o. rather than age appropriate, especially in public? Obviously it's because that's what they chose to wear, how they chose to express themselves, and whatever other motives they have. Do I agree with it? It doesn't matter; that's what they chose to do to make themselves happy, and who am I to infringe on that?

The clothes we choose to wear are an expression of ourselves. Sometimes it has to do with attracting a mate, sometimes it's compensation for other issues (psychological, physical, emotional), sometimes it's for comfort, to fit in, or any one of a multitude of reasons. Again, who are we to pass judgement on someone based on appearance? More specifically, for a group of people (the trans community in general) who are seeking to be accepted by other people (the non-trans community in general) to be making snap judgements based on appearance seems highly hypocritical.

The clothes are just that, it is the INTENT and the ACTIONS of the person wearing them that we need to examine, not the attire. There are many people who over or under dress (appropriate for the event, not CD over/under dress), both GG and CD. The following quote is a very true statement, however there are exceptions with both GGs and the trans community:


Women and transsexuals are very aware of dressing situation appropriate. Often, when invited to an unfamiliar restaurant or social event, one of the first questions is "What should I wear", and it's really important that they get it right. Wearing jeans to a charity fund raiser would get you.noticed in a bad way.

[msginaadoll]

Its ok to not understand why. In the end everyone is different. Sometimes we try to put all people in a box, or make them the same. Everyone is different, and in the eyes of the people who dress a certain way they like the way they look. I dont have tattoos but others do. I dont say they are disrespecting the human skin but getting t
them. I dont see someone dressing in a manner called ****ty as disrespercting woman. Maybe I would call it making a characture of some womean type being they view as attractive or empowering. They might see it as different. Maybe the end it is not possibe for a GG to realy understand a CD who knows. However in my belief is if we just accept that others are different and allow them to be without putting our judgements on them the world may be a better place.

[Lyndaloves]

I am really lost in this thread.
To say a Crossdresser can't dress as a sl## is like telling a crossdresser he can't dress as a woman.
Is there a dress code for crossdressing, is it different for TVs and TSs???
To be a crossdresser do you ahve to be hetror is there another name for gay, or bi (crossdressers?)
Why do some wear stockings and not pantyhose, do not stockings and garter belts add that flair of erotic, or Sl##Yness
There are alot of cds here that dress very very nicely and are very attractive and very very passable.
and seeing them in public I wouldn't of hesitated to make a pass at them, thinking they were real GGs.
Here they too would have fooled a man and ended up getting gay bashed, hetro or not.
No matter how we dress we face danger going out in public from those that wouldn't hesitate to harm us.
Maybe I am just lost here and totally missed what is trying to be said

Lynda

[wilt575]

Vickie, I have to ask the question of why someone would want to pass that badly that they would attract a male and take the possibility of getting their face kicked in by some male who not only didn't appreciate getting fooled, but fooled by a cross dresser? This seems to be a "case of asking for it".. That's Russian roulette with a round in every chamber. If they are validating their skills, there must be a GG in their life that would do the same validation based on experience, especially if they are out in public.
I don't go for attracting guys just opposite I try to dress and pass enough to try and attract girls as a girl, don't know why I want "lesbian" relationship with females, but always had very fem side since childhood. When I hook up with another girl let them know up front I'm cd so no sudden surprises if things develope farther.

[stacylynn1]

what I would like to know, is why when a GG gets married she wear's sweat's all the time.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Vickie, I have to ask the question of why someone would want to pass that badly that they would attract a male and take the possibility of getting their face kicked in by some male who not only didn't appreciate getting fooled, but fooled by a cross dresser? This seems to be a "case of asking for it".. That's Russian roulette with a round in every chamber. If they are validating their skills, there must be a GG in their life that would do the same validation based on experience, especially if they are out in public.

Personally, I don't know, as it is not something I do or desire to do; as I said in another thread, trying to attract interest from straight men can be dangerous. However, for some, they seek that kind of validation and it is important to them I guess, and they might enjoy the thrill of testing limits in general.

[Sandra]

Said this before...what people wear in their own home is up to them, but when they take it out into the big wide world it give the community a bad name, now if they want to continue dressing like that fine but don't start with the comments, "why doesn't society accept us"

[Millie]

I personally like to dress up to my mood. What someone else wants to do is their business. The SO likes me to look s***ty when we're intimate. If a cd that's heterosexual likes to dress up to attract other men, then I don't think their heterosexual.
If another man is attracted to me, it makes me feel good that he wants me, no matter what I'm wearing. Love Millie

[Silentpartner GG SO]

The fact that you disregarded my accompanying argument that there may be other motives for wearing something aside from trying to attract someone, my point remains valid. A painter doesn't paint for the purposes of attracting a mate, they do it to express themselves, much like a CDer dresses to express themselves. Making a statement that a CD male wearing a skirt and showing leg is done exclusively to attract a male is akin to saying that a person rides a motorcycle only to attract a biker. Statements like that completely disregard the person behind the appearance AND their motives.


Girltoy I'm not being awkward but in this instance, your analagies dont really hold water - we are talking about sex here, and painters dont paint with sex in mind- neiuther does a biker ride a bike for sex - neither painting nor riding a bike can in any way be construed as a sexual passtime, whereas dressing in an inappropriate manner and calling yourself s****y in my opinion is most certainly about sex!

A painter painting in the street or a biker riding a bike outdoors is hardly likely to attract the wrong sort of attention, or bring disrespect or bad publicity to themselves whereas a CD'er dressing s****y and going out in public is very likely to getstared at, talked about, maybe even picked up by a horny guy and possibly as mentioned earlier get their face kicked in.

If my husband wanted to go out dressed it would have to be in decent modest attire and I would accompany him without any problem. However if he wanted to go out dressed like a tart then no way would I go with him - I'd worry about him and try to disuade him from doing so and probably I'd be ashamed of him too. It's all about crossing certain lines of comfort and acceptability.

Again, what someone does in their home, fine, none of mine or anyone else's business. But going out like it, I still feel it is disrespectful of women and doing no good for the CD/transgender community in terms of acceptance by the general public.

Several threads have been started with the titles such as "Crossdresser gets attacked in ......." and everyone oos and aaas and says how terrible it is and how the community are so against you all, etc.etc. but does anyone actually know how this person was dressed or was behaving? Of course nobody should be attacked or ridiculed for the clothes they are wearing but provoking such attacks and ridicule by dressing and behaving in an inappropriate manner is just plain daft IMO

Absolutely I think there is an argument as to why a GG would go out looking like a tart but that's not the discussion we are having here.

[Katesback]

Silentpartnet:

Im thinking that because for many CDs dressing has some sort of a sexaul element they will dress like your talking about because its goverened by this. Also they watch the medial and see all these sexy women and they want to emulate them. What many dont understand is you have to grow up to know HOW to wear clothes like this.

[Laura912]

An interesting, confusing and little bit disturbing thread. If one looks at the avatar to the left one would form an opinion of the person which, based on this thread, would be dead wrong. The dress for that was private, a bit of a show off, and definitely not for passing in public. So what, based on the thread, does that make me?

[suchacutie]

When my wife and I found Tina, my wife likened what Tina would go through to the process of "growing up as a girl", and that meant "experimenting" with anything and everything including all facets of makeup, clothes, voice, deportment, and even psychology. She said that eventually Tina would find out who she is and have a style, or more than one, that suited her and made her feel wonderful.

If that premise is even reasonably true for all of us on this site, it would seem reasonable that all of us have gone through some stage of at least trying on clothes and using makeup in a way that would not be considered "the norm" in public.

Is there a person on the planet who wears women's clothes who hasn't experimented with a variety of styles, some of which might be a bit provocative? Are there not some GGs who also tend to dress in a way we would not consider "the norm" in public?

One thing about this forum is that it allows all of us to bring up topics that might not surface in other places. That doesn't mean that a majority of us associate ourselves with that topic. My guess is that eventually every topic imaginable will be discussed here. That's not negative. In fact, it's terrific, but let's keep it in perspective :)

tina

[Marleena]

I missed (or ignored) the original thread that started this dicussion. What I have found that members find this place a safe haven and discuss things they might not elsewhere and that is to be applauded.:)

Even within the general public people find kinks and turnons that could cause questions for one's reasoning for doing so. I'm sure if people within the general public admitted to what turns them on we would have many WTF moments!:D I try not to question or judge anybody's actions since we are such a diversified group. What is fun or daring for some is not for others. Same goes for sex fetishes people have within the general public. Most never talk about them in a public forum because they don't find it safe to do so.

I also don't think anybody here does things intentionally to degrade women. JMO.

[girltoy]

What I cannot understand is why a heterosexual male would want to dress in such a way and to want to attract or sexually arouse another guy.

Sometimes this is out of our hands (applicable to both men and women). I’ve read numerous posts on this forum wherein the poster has been flirted with while dressed in a moderate fashion. Would it be safe to say that you were not dressed like a ‘****’ or a ‘tart’ when your husband approached you initially and asked you for a first date? One’s attire does not dictate the behavior of others, it is an expression of one’s self. Unless the person comes out and states in no uncertain terms what their motivations are for dressing in a particular manner, a statement that they’re dressing to attract or sexually arouse someone is an inferred (and potentially erroneous) statement.


Girltoy I'm not being awkward but in this instance, your analagies dont really hold water - we are talking about sex here, and painters dont paint with sex in mind- neiuther does a biker ride a bike for sex - neither painting nor riding a bike can in any way be construed as a sexual passtime, whereas dressing in an inappropriate manner and calling yourself s****y in my opinion is most certainly about sex!

A painter painting in the street or a biker riding a bike outdoors is hardly likely to attract the wrong sort of attention, or bring disrespect or bad publicity to themselves whereas a CD'er dressing s****y and going out in public is very likely to getstared at, talked about, maybe even picked up by a horny guy and possibly as mentioned earlier get their face kicked in.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, and I apologize if I come across as argumentative (I view this as a discussion from two separate viewpoints rather than an argument). Dressing in an inappropriate manner is highly subjective, based on location and activity (as I mentioned in prior posts). The activities one engages in while dressed in such a manner readily lends itself to the application of derogatory terms (behaving in a promiscuous manner, e.g.).

A blanket statement about painters not painting with sex in mind (or any artist using their chosen medium) is fairly far-fetched in my opinion. There are countless paintings, sculptures, and photographs that capture the human body (male and female) in various states of undress, and usually exemplifying the “ideal” of the species with defined musculature in males and curvature of the female form. We as society tend not to think of art as sexual because we have been taught that it’s art, not pornography, yet some artists have been lambasted for inappropriateness. Artists who put their works in the public eye are constantly under scrutiny by the public.

My biker reference is a prime example of how people think in language and stereotypes. As a society, people see someone dressed in a provocative manner, exposing skin or wearing tight clothes, and they think ‘****’ without hesitation. If a man walked into a place of business wearing riding leathers, with a scruffy beard and tons of tattoos, people would instantly think of all of the negative connotations that popular media and their own personal standards have placed on people who appear that way.

Yes, there’s the potential that a horny guy will attempt to pick up on a CD. There’s also the ability of said CD to politely turn the person down, leaving the scene (or contacting security/police if need be). There’s the responsibility of the CD to frequent a safe place while dressed. There’s the risk of getting their face kicked in. There’s also the potential to get your face kicked in while getting cash out of the ATM while dressed in drab.


If my husband wanted to go out dressed it would have to be in decent modest attire and I would accompany him without any problem. However if he wanted to go out dressed like a tart then no way would I go with him - I'd worry about him and try to disuade him from doing so and probably I'd be ashamed of him too. It's all about crossing certain lines of comfort and acceptability.

Again, what someone does in their home, fine, none of mine or anyone else's business. But going out like it, I still feel it is disrespectful of women and doing no good for the CD/transgender community in terms of acceptance by the general public.

Understandably; you and your husband have boundaries placed on what can be worn and in what situations. My SO and I have boundaries and limitations as well. Stating that it is disrespectful of women is your right, and I respect your opinion. I am curious, do you think that women who dress in a provocative fashion and behave in a flirtatious manner are also disrespectful of women? I just want to understand if this is a double standard.

As for the sexual aspect of dressing in this manner, that has to be judged on a case by case basis. For some people, dressing that way and knowing they can turn on a member of the same (or opposite) gender is a thrill (applicable to both genders). For some, it isn’t sexual so much as breaking out of their comfort zone, which provides a little thrill as well (adrenaline seeking behavior). For others it is a matter of fitting in for a particular situation.


Absolutely I think there is an argument as to why a GG would go out looking like a tart but that's not the discussion we are having here.

I’m uncomfortable with this statement, as it seems a bit of a double standard. What if both the GG and the CD have the same motivation for their attire? My opinion is that this community is here to express oneself in a safe haven of acceptance (within the rules and guidelines of the forum), and by casually tossing about derogatory terms and then saying something akin to “It’s okay for this group to act like this, but not okay for another group” it dances terribly close to intolerance (going to reiterate that this is my opinion). I’m sorry if this offends anyone or steps on anyone’s toes, but we (as a society) think in language. I’ll admit, seeing the term ‘****’ tossed out got my back up. It’s a term used to denigrate. Yes, people dress and act in a provocative manner. I will freely and readily admit that, in some instances, it is inappropriate. I know that I’m probably not going to change how people view the world, or the language that they use, but I can hope. :D

[kellycan27]

I am really lost in this thread.
To say a Crossdresser can't dress as a sl## is like telling a crossdresser he can't dress as a woman.
Is there a dress code for crossdressing, is it different for TVs and TSs???
To be a crossdresser do you ahve to be hetror is there another name for gay, or bi (crossdressers?)
Why do some wear stockings and not pantyhose, do not stockings and garter belts add that flair of erotic, or Sl##Yness
There are alot of cds here that dress very very nicely and are very attractive and very very passable.
and seeing them in public I wouldn't of hesitated to make a pass at them, thinking they were real GGs.
Here they too would have fooled a man and ended up getting gay bashed, hetro or not.
No matter how we dress we face danger going out in public from those that wouldn't hesitate to harm us.
Maybe I am just lost here and totally missed what is trying to be said

Lynda

I don't often were stockings or pantyhose, but when I do I wear stay up thigh highs or stockings and a garter belt. I don't like pantyhose for a number of reasons. I think the ****ty part ( for my own personal self) would be if people can tell "which" I am wearing by virtue of "what" I am wearing. If people can see my pantyhose or garter.. I personally feel that my skirt might be a tad too short. To quote a mother of a teenaged girl who wanted to go to school wearing a too short skirt. "people can tell that you are a girl, you don't have to prove it by showing them that you are". While there may not be a different dress code between CDer's and TS/GG There is definitely a different mindset for some of us. It might be fun to dress in a provocative manner to titillate men for that fleeting moment and then go back to your manly self, for women it can cause a perception that we have to constantly battle with. It's unfortunate that some people are judged by what they wear, but good bad or indifferent that's they way it is. I get it, I mean that when I first transitioned and began living full time as a woman I'll admit that I flaunted it a bit, but I quickly discovered that along with with the attention came unwanted attention that could be scary to down right dangerous. Dress however you want, but be careful what you wish for whether you be cd,ts, or GG. The opinions that are expressed here are strictly my own.. YMMV.

[Tina B.]

Wow, and I thought it was just because, boys just want to have fun, it's a guy thing! guy's are visual creatures, we grow up on mens magazines, filled with pictures of beautiful women, dressed in revealing clothes, well that's a challenge, can I pull it off? I'm a hetero, closet dresser, and I will pull out a tight mini, fishnets, and my tallest heels now and then, just for the fun of it, and I'm not putting down anybody, I'm just playing. After all sometimes a pair of fishnets are just a pair of fishnets, they are not a weapon, not meant to hurt anybody, and since I bought them in the womens section, of the store, how could they be an insult to anyone? I think we all should lighten up, and not worry so much about what others wear, it's not uniforms, we can all do our own thing!
Tina B.

[BLUE ORCHID]

H SP, Sometimes it's just plane fun to be naughty it's who we are It's what we do.

[Shananigans]

It makes a lot of sense to me that it's heterosexual men dressing up tarty. I think I am thinking along the same lines as Julia and Melissa. But, I'll explain more how I see it...

A heterosexual man is sexually aroused by viewing a woman. A lot of marketing towards heterosexual males puts emphasis on women dressed up in kind of tarty outfits. One day, maybe this heterosexual man stumbles across an article of clothing...let's say a short skirt. When he wears it, he becomes sexually aroused and released. Maybe he was thinking about an image of a woman in his head...maybe she was wearing that skirt, looking sexually appetizing to the stereotypical heterosexual male idea of a female.

So, why stop at a skirt? The skirt was fun...so, maybe more would be even more fun. So, now, it's a quest to look feminine.

(Please note that the driving force of feminity here is sex).

So, who do you look to when your driving force to look "feminine" is under the pretense of sex? Porn stars, strippers, etc.

There is nothing really about this process that is exploring being female...it is an exploration of satisfying your sexual desires. However, your sexual desires are with a female image that exists in your head.

So, now, "sexy" outfit is acquired...but, jerking in a mirror is getting old. Well, how do the female porn stars do what they do? There needs to be some action...

Now, we see the "sl*t" in action. And, the purpose IS to be a sl*tty, so saying they look as such has accomplished something. But, now, we may see a heterosexual man dress as a female and imitate what he sees on porn. In porn, the girls worship penis like it is a gift from God. Many men are obsessed with their d*cks, so it makes sense to me that this is an important part of porn...afterall, it's mainly men that watch porn.

So, now, we have a heterosexual male dressed as his ideal of a woman he wants to have sex with and he now has spanking material about what actions this girl might do. It could be that in the future, this person takes fantasy and reality a little to far an acts on his fantasies...only to find out porn isn't real. Awww :(

Anyway, I don't really care how you dress and spank. I'm sure that your goal is to look sl*tty, so having people say you look sl*tty isn't going to be this dramatic awakening of what you look like. Lol it was the look you were going for, afterall.

But, at the end of the day....you aren't much in the "fashion" world and you are far, far, FAR away from what it feels to be a woman.

So, I never have any problems at all until these same people say that they are expressing their "inner woman" or feel trapped in their male body. Dressing like a woman was fueled by sex for them...and, now, they are going to tell me how it feels to be a woman and how I should dress. HAH! Heterosexual men telling women how it feels to be a woman and how we should dress....OH, WAIT, that's been happening for centuries. Why should I expect any better now? ;)

In these cases, yes, I feel it negatively impacts GGs. Why? Because, it's really dumb. Afterall, I really think it just looks bad on the group of people that do this. I think my role in society is pretty firmly planted, and people aren't going to think poorly on women. It reflects poorly on the people that are doing it. And, if you dress like that out and about and act with the same attitudes/behaviors.

I do hate that TS women get viewed negatively because of this. I mean, there is no harm in dressing how you want at home, and seeing it for what it is. But, when you take it out of the home and start preaching about how it feels to be a woman while you are dressed in a Hooters or French Maid outfit, and spanking it to feeling like a "sl*t"...lay people see you as a TS. And, then, they get a bad image. I really like to think that TSs aren't really impacted by this silly behavior...but, I think they are because most people may not know a TS. (Or, may not know they know a TS).

So, do what you want, dress how you want...but, if your motivation to be a "girl" is driven by sex and you fulfilling some sl*t fantasy...don't you DARE tell me how it is to be a woman. Thanks :)

[TxKimberly]

You know, part of me says that I ought to leave this one alone. . .

So lets define "****ty" a little since some of us may have different concepts than others. If your talking about clothes that show your undergarments, your breasts, or the top of your thigh highs, then this is probably what I would call ****ty and I have no interest in it.

If you are talking about wearing a snug mini dress and five inch heels, over a body that can do it justice, I'd call that more sexy than ****ty, and if I had the youth and figure for it, I'd be perfectly happy to give the look a whirl.

"What I cannot understand is why a heterosexual male would want to dress in such a way and to want to attract or sexually arouse another guy."

I think that you might be making a significant error here as regards the motivation behind this for some of us. Not long ago, a GG posted something along the lines of when she slips on something sexy, the act, the garment, and her wearing it don't really hold any significance for her other than knowing how it will affect her mate. She "likes" wearing it because she knows what affect it will have on him, not because it does anything for her in and of itself.

Keeping in mind that I know I can't speak for everyone else here, and there will of course be some who will argue with me, but I think that for most of us, we do not feel that way. Most of us like the fact that it makes US look and feel sexy or attractive. It pleases us to look and feel that way, and it has absolutely nothing to do with impressing others.

So - GG's tend to do it to impress others (their mates) and we tend to do it to impress ourselves. Does that make any sense at all or did I just ramble too much? ;)

[MarinaKirax]

I don't think the answer is that we lack a fashion sense. And for most of us (myself included) the idea is not to attract male sexual attention. Those clothes are feminine to the point of caricature. They are the MOST feminine. If I have fantasies that I am a fireman, I'd choose to wear the full uniform with boots, helmet, oxygen tank and 30lb jacket. Even though I know that most firemen wear regular clothes almost all the time, and when at work, wear blue pants and a t shirt. Even though that's what they ACTUALLY wear, and if I wanted to fit in around the station I shouldn't sit down to dinner in my boots, tank and helmet, if I'm in 'fireman-fantasy' mode, you'll find me wearing the whole thing. Don't you think? MK

[whowhatwhen]

Now, we see the "sl*t" in action. And, the purpose IS to be a sl*tty, so saying they look as such has accomplished something. But, now, we may see a heterosexual man dress as a female and imitate what he sees on porn. In porn, the girls worship penis like it is a gift from God. Many men are obsessed with their d*cks, so it makes sense to me that this is an important part of porn...afterall, it's mainly men that watch porn.


In all fairness that happens in gay porn too, IMO the male examples you're using are likely bisexual or gay and thus not unusual for them to love the ****.
;)

Except that gay men are likely looking for other gay men who look like men, I could see why someone would dress up to attract a "straight" guy.
Add in that fashion sense isn't instinct and there ya go.

[Shananigans]

Why I perceive it is "straight" is because gay men like men. I'm aware that there are various TG fetishes that blur the gay lines, but I see it as more of a fetish. I believe this may be my bias because I actually DO see TS women as women. So, a TS woman with a man is straight to me. I would also argue that it isn't bisexuality until you are actually turned on by men. As I understand it, in many CD fantasies, it is a faceless man with a penis that is kind of a prop so the CD feels more feminine. I have never seen my sex partners as faceless genitalia, or a prop to make me feel a certain way. (I am bi). I am not saying I have always been in love with girls I was intimate with, but She was the focus of my attraction. I actually like the whole thing, not just the p*ssy or to feel more feminine when I am with a woman. So, I would argue that it's the intent of the sexual act. Are you doing this because sucking a d*ck or being penetrated will make you feel like a woman? Have you ever had a huge crush growing up on a man? If yes, you may be bi/gay. If for prop and "feminine" purposes only, you have a fetish...maybe a penis fetish...or, maybe it's just that you equate being with a penis as an ultimate act of being a woman. (Hint: It's not). Maybe you are gay if you could be with a man eitherway (dressed or not). But, if you MUST be dressed and have never felt that tug in your heart for a male except when you are visualizing sex or thinking about looking like a girl, I would say you have a fetish.

I know we have a whole different thread on this subject and wasn't trying to switch topics. I know SG was asking about heterosexual men, so I went to explain my view of heterosexual men with a fetish. Maybe this post will reference how I see straight, bi, and gay versus a fetish/fantasy.


In all fairness that happens in gay porn too, IMO the male examples you're using are likely bisexual or gay and thus not unusual for them to love the ****.
;)

Except that gay men are likely looking for other gay men who look like men, I could see why someone would dress up to attract a "straight" guy.
Add in that fashion sense isn't instinct and there ya go.

[Badtranny]

Why I perceive it is "straight" is because gay men like men. I'm aware that there are various TG fetishes that blur the gay lines, but I see it as more of a fetish. I believe this may be my bias because I actually DO see TS women as women. So, a TS woman with a man is straight to me. I would also argue that it isn't bisexuality until you are actually turned on by men. As I understand it, in many CD fantasies, it is a faceless man with a penis that is kind of a prop so the CD feels more feminine. I have never seen my sex partners as faceless genitalia, or a prop to make me feel a certain way. (I am bi). I am not saying I have always been in love with girls I was intimate with, but She was the focus of my attraction. I actually like the whole thing, not just the p*ssy or to feel more feminine when I am with a woman. So, I would argue that it's the intent of the sexual act. Are you doing this because sucking a d*ck or being penetrated will make you feel like a woman? Have you ever had a huge crush growing up on a man? If yes, you may be bi/gay. If for prop and "feminine" purposes only, you have a fetish...maybe a penis fetish...or, maybe it's just that you equate being with a penis as an ultimate act of being a woman. (Hint: It's not). Maybe you are gay if you could be with a man eitherway (dressed or not). But, if you MUST be dressed and have never felt that tug in your heart for a male except when you are visualizing sex or thinking about looking like a girl, I would say you have a fetish..

Brilliant analysis. ...but you're giving paper money to people who think paper is for making fire.

[Shananigans]

Ughhhh....

I told myself just to not comment on this thread. And, that if I didn't have anything nice to say, I shouldn't say anything at all.

I sometimes feel bad because I know a lot of people here never want to go out of the closet. And, some people talk about being a woman, bash on real women, and generally act like d*cks in a "girl costume"...but, they only do it here. I know in the end, it's probably to feel better about what they do and to feel validated...but, then, there's hundreds more people here that don't act that way. And, so, I get a little snappy.

I am waiting for the classic comment of, "I go here to not be persecuted by the world! We should just take this to the Genetic Male section where we can be sl*tty and talk about how it feels to be a woman WITHOUT all these damn women telling us we are acting like d*cks."

It has happened...A LOT. And, I'm always like, "Here's your sign...your behavior and actions make women dislike you...and, you feel the need to take it to an all male section. Perhaps, you aren't as feminine in actuality as you feel that you are? Jus' saying."

I thought for sure we would have this comment by now. I'm impressed that we don't. But, now, it's not going to happen since I just shat on that type of logic. Or, maybe it will still happen...and, I'll be moderately amused.

[Foxglove]

great thread silentpartner!!! i actually asked my so about this recently...i think for him it is a case of trying to hard. he feels that in order for him to feel feminine he has to go above and beyond looking like the "average girl". i was very confused by his desire to achieve such a sl**ty look because he very much prefers me covered up with very simple hair and makeup but i kinda got it when he said that he feels i dont need to look like a s**t to look like an attractive female (which of course made my heart smile). hope this helps :)


I don't think the answer is that we lack a fashion sense. And for most of us (myself included) the idea is not to attract male sexual attention. Those clothes are feminine to the point of caricature. They are the MOST feminine. If I have fantasies that I am a fireman, I'd choose to wear the full uniform with boots, helmet, oxygen tank and 30lb jacket. Even though I know that most firemen wear regular clothes almost all the time, and when at work, wear blue pants and a t shirt. Even though that's what they ACTUALLY wear, and if I wanted to fit in around the station I shouldn't sit down to dinner in my boots, tank and helmet, if I'm in 'fireman-fantasy' mode, you'll find me wearing the whole thing. Don't you think? MK

I find this thread a bit funny, too. Silentpartner has asked a very good question: why do some CDers like to dress very provocatively? (And why does this world "sl*t" have to be spelled "sl*t". I've never thought the word was so bad.) If you want to know the answer to that question, you ask guys who do it and see what they say. And when you have enough answers, then you know pretty well the reason(s) why they do it. There's no point in anyone who doesn't do it (for whatever reason) speculating as to why someone else might do it. You can't read other people's minds.

Now Kandace and Marina have gone about it the right way. One asked her SO for his reasons and Marina gave her own personal testimony.

As for me, dressing provocatively is something I've only ever fantasized about. I might fantasize about wearing a French maid's costume, e.g. Why? Because it would make me feel super-feminine. Do I intend to degrade women by dressing like that? No, I'm not thinking about women at all. I'm thinking about me. Would it be degrading for a woman to be required to dress like that for a job? I think virtually all of them would say it would. So they certainly shouldn't be required to wear that kind of thing. Degrading for them, but not for me.

That said, I've never actually worn a French maid's costume or any sort of short or provocative dress. I might fantasize about it, but I don't do it because it's not me. I like feeling super-feminine, but I do it in a way that's more "me". Pretty tops and long skirts or a pretty dress, generally below the knee. That's what makes me feel really good about myself. But you don't see many women these days dressed like that. They don't need that to feel feminine. But I do. So that's why I do it. To feel feminine. Not to degrade women.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Jessica86]

I don't understand this at all. I see a few people saying it is disrespect toward women. I really.....don't get that. Nobody says anything when Brittney Spears dances around in nothing....in fact...the shows sell out. Have you seen the things the ladies are wearing on the red carpet? They would definately get kicked out of church for sure.....isn't that disrespect to a woman? If anything, a dresser dressing in that way is a disrespect for men. That's a double edged sword. "Woman can do anything man can." Well, it works both ways. Sorry to be so blunt.

Then there is the logic of dressers dressing that way to "arouse" men. Has it ever occurred to anyone a dresser might be dressing to look sexy toward another woman? ESPECIALLY if that male is a hetero? Why would I dress to impress another man, when I....find that just disgusting. Sorry. No offense to anyone, it just isn't me. When I dress, I admit I try to look good, but not for my own arousal. I try to impress my wife, so we can look beautiful together in each other's eyes.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm going to have to disagree, straight men do not fantasize about sex with other men - faceless or not.
If they're faceless then it's because of other issues.

The crossdressing is likely just coincidental, not just some feeling about how they feel women should look/act/whatever.

[Shananigans]

Anabelle, you have said, "There's no point in anyone who doesn't do it (for whatever reason) speculating as to why someone else might do it."

And in the same post, you stated that French maids outfits are "super-feminine", but you prefer to wear long skirts and pretty tops to feel feminine. Also, that women do not need these things to feel feminine.

By the same train of thought on speculation, are you not assuming that clothes equate feminity in some way? And, on the same line of speculation, you state most women do not wear these things because they do not need them to feel feminine. Is this not a speculation that "most women" do not wear these things because they do not need them to feel feminine? Could there not be other factors involved here that may influence their attire?

Are we, in fact, speculating? Or, should we ask every woman in the world her opinion on why she wears what she wears?

I just want to be consistent on our lines of not speculating.

[GBJoker]

What I cannot understand is why a heterosexual male would want to dress in such a way and to want to attract or sexually arouse another guy.


Some MTF CD'ers have expressed the desire to dress sl***y and to look SEXY, even to be ALLURING and DESIRABLE to straight guys.

Emphasis added.


From a GG point of view, s****y dressing is not in the least bit sexy, its vulgar and unattractive and for a man to dress this way seems to me to be disrespectful of women generally.

Some women think that, at some times. But not all at all times, or else lingerie would never get sold. Nor would little black dresses. Etc.


My understanding of CD'ing is that you feel the need to express your feminine side - so what are you saying by dressing like a *****? that your feminine side is a s**t???

I can, to an extent, understand wanting to dress and be pretty, and feminine and look nice but the whole streetwalker but I dont get at all.

And some times, not only do I want to look simply "pretty" and feel feminine and look simply "nice," but I want to look damn sexy, like... ya know... Most GGs tend to appear at times.

Also, random twists of events have put me in a positon where I only have a few "streetwalker" outfits, and two "normal" outfits, and am unable to add to the collection for a while.

[Foxglove]

Anabelle, you have said, "There's no point in anyone who doesn't do it (for whatever reason) speculating as to why someone else might do it."

And in the same post, you stated that French maids outfits are "super-feminine", but you prefer to wear long skirts and pretty tops to feel feminine. Also, that women do not need these things to feel feminine.

By the same train of thought on speculation, are you not assuming that clothes equate feminity in some way? And, on the same line of speculation, you state most women do not wear these things because they do not need them to feel feminine. Is this not a speculation that "most women" do not wear these things because they do not need them to feel feminine? Could there not be other factors involved here that may influence their attire?

Are we, in fact, speculating? Or, should we ask every woman in the world her opinion on why she wears what she wears?

I just want to be consistent on our lines of not speculating.

No, Ms. Shananigans, I'm not speculating. Many times on this very forum I've seen GG's say they don't need "feminine" clothing to feel feminine. (I've also seen many CDers saying they don't need dresses and skirts to feel feminine.) I'm going by what other people on this forum are saying. OK?

But I'm not assuming that clothing equates to femininity for everybody. I'm saying that it does for me. That's precisely why I wear what I do because of what it does for me. What other people feel about their clothing is up to them. I was speaking for myself, and I think my post was pretty clear there. In any case, I wasn't speculating. I know my mind on this issue.

Annabelle

[Stephanie47]

Hi Silentpartner!

I think there are several components to your question. In my experience and mind, dressing ****ty is not the same as (1) dressing sexy, (2) acting alluring and desirable to straight guys. I think a Supreme Court Justice called it right when he said he could not define porn, but, he knew it when he saw it! I think dressing and acting ****ty go together. If you are in my city on certain well defined streets, dressing a certain way means you're a working women. Those women look ****ty and for the life of me I do not understand why any normal guy would stop and engage her for sexual favors. Zip over to a club and you'll see many women dressed 'alluringly' with really short dresses and sheer hosiery and loooow cute dresses and tops advertising their 'girls.' Are portraying themselves as available for a sexual encounter? Or are they just teasing or being alluring to young guys with raging hormones?

I think the MTF cross dresser who appears ****ty maybe relates to his personal male environment, where he equates dressing in that manner usually means he scores. The question in my mind is whether the MTF when dressed ****ty will act upon a 'heterosexual' hitting on him. As a sidebar, if you are enticing a 'straight' guy and he discovers he has been wasting his time with a cross dresser, are you prepared for the potential consequences.

I digressed! In my male experiences in non crossing mode I would say sexiness is in the eye of the viewer. Whether the women is alluring is a matter of personal choices. A woman with a nice well maintained shapely body adorned with well styled and clean hair and nice makeup, wearing a knee length (+/- an inch or 2) dress or skirt and modest high heels and hosiery is a visual knockout. How she carries herself; how she pushes her hair from her face; how she crosses her legs when sitting; how she holds her hands and drinks her tea; etc determines for me as to whether she is sexy.

From a sexual viewpoint I would not be able to tell whether she wants to get into bed. Does she want to attract a man for a short term or long term relationship? Sex on the first date? Sex later?

Forty plus years ago I had a sociology instructor (woman) who stated if you wanted to score on a date, do not choose a '****ty' looking Catholic girl with a short skirt and fishnet stockings and heavy makeup. Why? She said their moral beliefs preclude sex until marriage. (Remember, this is the mid 1960's). She said to choose attractively dressed Jewish girls, because there moral beliefs do not preclude pre marital sex. Now don't jump on my butt! I am relating what the sociology instructor (female) said.

To a male, a women dressing ****ty usually means she is available for immediate sex. I chose to dress tastefully and in a manner that would suggest you need to know me before you can get me into bed. As a MTF cross dresser and straight, I have absolutely no desire to tease or urge on a man, whether he is straight or gay.

[Shananigans]

Fair enough, Jessica. I definitely find how my SO dresses en femme attractive and sexy. Granted, she doesn't wear the things that she wears in the bedroom in public lol. I DO find the more provocative attire very sexy in the bedroom and am happy she goes through so much to look great for me.

But, on the same level, my SO has never told me what women should and should not wear, the bedroom clothes stay in the bedroom, and my SO has never told me how womanhood/feeling like a woman is anyway correlated with a particular manner of dress.

In this way, yeah, my SO dresses kind of scandalous in the bedroom. Im happy that I am the only one who sees it, because it helps me know she is doing it for me. And, I appreciate that I am not told how I should dress or feel as a woman by my SO, because my SO agrees that his experience of living as a woman has kind of began and ended in clothes/the bedroom.

In the same way, I can never truly know how it feels to be TG. I know my SO wants to look sexy and feels bad about his appearance sometimes. I hate to see him caught up in it, because I feely SO is beautiful no matter...clothes or no clothes. But, my job is to be understanding and supportive, just as my SO understands and supports me.

It's quite a different attitude from people dressed in caricature of the female form that are telling me how I should dress and how I should feel. How people dress at home is up to them...but, when you bring the world into it and use your own yardstick to judge how other people are living/should be living, I get a little irritated. I don't want to be told how it feels to be a woman by someone in a Hooters outfit. And, in the same regard, I won't tell you how to be TG. I can speculate all day why people do what they do, and you can speculate why I do what I do. But, it is a little hard to listen to people tell me how they feel as a woman when it begins and ends with how they dress. By ALL means, speculate...just don't pretend that the "inner woman" transcends clothing and manifests into something deeper if it hasn't for you. And, also, how you dress will be criticized by the world of you take it outside the bedroom. Women have known this for ages, and that's why many of us tone down how we dress. I'm sure I would look awesome in a school girl outfit...I'd turn some heads. But, I should also realize that not everyone is going to like it. I'd have to be ready to own it. CDs get mad that provocative wear is being criticized...why are you not owning what you are wearing? I have to own my own clothing style all the time on this forum when someone gets mad about jeans. I'm not going to have a hissy fit about it. But, furthermore, it's easy to wear the thins I do because people have said it's appropriate. I'm not berated for why I wear. You know any girl dressing like a ho is going to get sh*t talked about them. If you don't, maybe you haven't been out much. So, if you dress like that, be ready for what people say. If you want to be perceived as a ho, why don't you just say so? Lol. But, dont dress like a ho and tell me how it is channeling your inner woman lmao


Then there is the logic of dressers dressing that way to "arouse" men. Has it ever occurred to anyone a dresser might be dressing to look sexy toward another woman? ESPECIALLY if that male is a hetero? Why would I dress to impress another man, when I....find that just disgusting. Sorry. No offense to anyone, it just isn't me. When I dress, I admit I try to look good, but not for my own arousal. I try to impress my wife, so we can look beautiful together in each other's eyes.

[Shananigans]

No, Ms. Shananigans, I'm not speculating. Many times on this very forum I've seen GG's say they don't need "feminine" clothing to feel feminine. (I've also seen many CDers saying they don't need dresses and skirts to feel feminine.) I'm going by what other people on this forum are saying. OK?

But I'm not assuming that clothing equates to femininity for everybody. I'm saying that it does for me. That's precisely why I wear what I do because of what it does for me. What other people feel about their clothing is up to them. I was speaking for myself, and I think my post was pretty clear there. In any case, I wasn't speculating. I know my mind on this issue.

Annabelle

Hmm...I feel girlie and feminine when I dress in my dresses, with my nail polish, and cute jewelry. I'd say it enhances what I already am. Do I NEED it to feel a certain way? No. In actuality, all I need in the clothing department are things that protect me from the elements. You are correct....under my clothes and without makeup, I am all woman. The clothes are not needed for me to become one. However, when I do dress in ways I consider pretty, I feel pretty. Days that I am rolling out of bed, flying through the shower, and putting on scrubs isn't because I am saying "I don't need girlie clothe to feel feminine." It is quite simply because I am not thinking about my gender, or how the public perceives it based on my clothes. My uniform is scrubs...makeup usually happens because people as if I am "sick" when I do not wear makeup...my perception of outward or inner femininity is never at stake. I'm simply just trying to do my job...thinking more about other people than how other people are perceiving me, or how I feel my clothes may or may not be contributing to anything. That's why I ask if you were speculating. You say you would have to ask the CD personally, but all GGs were lumped together in your analysis of why we wear what we were.

I can assure you my "inner female" or "feminity" is rarely contemplated. Its not that I don't need other things to feel feminine..,it just that I don't think about it as much as you.

If I am wearing girlie clothes, I feel pretty. If I am wearing scrubs, I am just wearing my uniform. Little contemplation has been made as to whether I still feel feminine in that attire. I'm sure people still see me as female, but I am NOT even thinking about how other people are perceiving me.

Why? Because, I'm not TG. And, I am sure Most GGs really do not need clothes to feel feminine...but, I guarantee she's not contemplating on her inner female self that still remains with or without a skirt.

I literally RARELY think about my gender, unless I am on here or if someone says something sexist (alienates me). It's not that clothes are needed or not needed...it's just that I'm not concerned about my gender as much and how I am perceived. Probably means I am not TG, huh?

I too know my mind on my issues.

[Foxglove]

And, I am sure Most GGs really do not need clothes to feel feminine...

Then what are we arguing about? I'm just listening to GG's and going by what they say.


I too know my mind on my issues.

That's fine. But you don't know mine. If you want to know it, I'd appreciate it if you'd ask me, rather than just assuming you know. I believe we've been through this once before.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[whowhatwhen]

Can we all agree that jeans are comfy as hell no matter what?
:)

[Shananigans]

I honestly don't know you from Adam. But, if you wish to pick that long post a$$ post apart where I was saying what I meant behind "clothes arent needed to feel feminine" and boil it down to one sentence to support your own views, that's fine too. Btw, I am a GG...I didn't much feel like you were actually really listening to me, but that's cool too.


Then what are we arguing about? I'm just listening to GG's and going by what they say.



That's fine. But you don't know mine. If you want to know it, I'd appreciate it if you'd ask me, rather than just assuming you know. I believe we've been through this once before.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[TxKimberly]

So why do some appear to be getting kind of antagonistic here? It was an honest question, and people are giving honest answers and thoughts, so why the hostility? If WE cant have an open and frank discussion without letting it degrade, what hope has the rest of the world?

[Foxglove]

Can we all agree that jeans are comfy as hell no matter what?
:)

Sorry, I'll quibble with this. I've been wearing jeans all my life and I hate them. They never fit. Unless you tighten the belt enough to almost pinch you in two, they're always sliding down your hips.

Whereas a dress--as long as it fits at the shoulders and waist, it's fine. And I rarely have any problem finding a dress that fits in those two places. That's not the only reason I prefer dresses to jeans, but it's a good one.

Annabelle


I honestly don't know you from Adam.

I know you don't, Shan, and I hope you'll always bear that in mind, so that you'll remember that you can't know what's going on in my mind. Some time ago on a thread I started you did just that: you assumed that you could read my mind, and it led you to draw all sorts of conclusions about me that were pretty nasty and totally unjustified. And when I asked you to reconsider publicly what you were saying, you refused to do so. And when I asked you by PM to apologize, you refused to do so. But now that you've admitted that you don't know me from Adam, hopefully we won't have any more of that, and we can be the best of friends.


But, if you wish to pick that long post a$$ post apart where I was saying what I meant behind "clothes arent needed to feel feminine" and boil it down to one sentence to support your own views, that's fine too. Btw, I am a GG...I didn't much feel like you were actually really listening to me, but that's cool too.

I repeat, Shan, this isn't my view. I'm only going by what I've seen GG's say on this forum. And there was nothing in your last post that contradicted that. You went into some detail about how you feel about your clothing, and I found that interesting. You mentioned how you don't think much about your gender in contrast to us TG's. And I found that interesting, too. But I didn't see any need to reply to it. Mainly because this whole discussion is off-topic. The OP was asking about CD habits, not GG habits. You took one sentence out of my first post, and why, I don't exactly know, but you decided to start a discussion on that, when it's really neither here nor there as far as this thread goes.

And I'm well aware that you're a GG.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Shananigans]

So why do some appear to be getting kind of antagonistic here? It was an honest question, and people are giving honest answers and thoughts, so why the hostility? If WE cant have an open and frank discussion without letting it degrade, what hope has the rest of the world?

You're right, Kim. Lol...it's totally supposed to be supportive/informative. I think I read a lot of comments that bother me on other threads, never say anything, and then it all kind of comes out on one thread when I feel the issues are relevant. So, it's a bit more passionate and personal than if I had addressed the issues head on with people that were being silly.
Next time, I should just go straight to the source. My bad, y'all.

Also, Annabelle, I'm done. There is no sense talking to you any further. We obviously are reading each other quite differently. This may because of whatever views you have toward me in the past, but we aren't getting anywhere. I honestly don't even remember you, and I'm sorry this event is still burned in your mind. It's not in mine. I agree that things are off topic, so I encourage you to PM me if you are stil concerned about my views of you as a random person online.

[Kate Simmons]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again I always know where I stand with you Shan.:)

[whowhatwhen]

You're right, Kim. Lol...it's totally supposed to be supportive/informative. I think I read a lot of comments that bother me on other threads, never say anything, and then it all kind of comes out on one thread when I feel the issues are relevant. So, it's a bit more passionate and personal than if I had addressed the issues head on with people that were being silly.
Next time, I should just go straight to the source. My bad, y'all.


It's actually a good thing, echo chambers are never good to have and IMHO it's nice to have a shakeup every now and then.

[Babeba]

I don't understand this at all. I see a few people saying it is disrespect toward women. I really.....don't get that. Nobody says anything when Brittney Spears dances around in nothing....in fact...the shows sell out. Have you seen the things the ladies are wearing on the red carpet? They would definately get kicked out of church for sure.....isn't that disrespect to a woman? If anything, a dresser dressing in that way is a disrespect for men. That's a double edged sword. "Woman can do anything man can." Well, it works both ways. Sorry to be so blunt.

Then there is the logic of dressers dressing that way to "arouse" men. Has it ever occurred to anyone a dresser might be dressing to look sexy toward another woman? ESPECIALLY if that male is a hetero? Why would I dress to impress another man, when I....find that just disgusting. Sorry. No offense to anyone, it just isn't me. When I dress, I admit I try to look good, but not for my own arousal. I try to impress my wife, so we can look beautiful together in each other's eyes.

Whoa, back this wagon train up! First off, Ms. Spears is one of the most **** shamed celebs currently going. Did you miss her whole quickie-marriage-annulment? Or everything that happened with K-Fed? The drug-test-avoiding head shave? The neurotic breakdowns and tabloid **** rumors? The criticism for her lack of underwear? The hit single about how everyone is so hot and cold over her? Sex sells, and she has always known how to market herself. It has not left her a single shred of reputation, though. She is one of those people who would have had a much less stressful life if she had not had all the notoriety. Remember that viral clip about 'leave Britney alone!'? That wouldn't have happened if she wasn't getting so shamed over her supposed loose morals.

Ihave ways maintained there is a difference between being confident, sexy and in control of yourself and being ****ty - sexually promiscuous with undesirable partners (or feeling powerless to make a decision about one's sexual acts.) sometimes clothing can be an indicator of this lack of self respect or sexual availability, but more often I think sl•t shame is put upon someone who does not feel that way for the way they are dressed by someone else who has judged them. If a man sees a woman and thinks she is a **** and is offended - based solely on her dress - who is the one disrespecting? THAT is precisely the attitude that is SO WRONG and DANGEROUS. 'look at how she was dressed, she was begging for trouble.' THAT precise attitude is EVERYTHING wrong with the whole idea of ****s.

The thing that got me upset and kicking up a fuss about sl•ts in another thread (the thread that got SP starting this one) was several CDs who were enthusiastic about being a **** sometimes. Well, you men can put it on and take it off and fantasize as you will - but there are so many genetic women in the world who cannot just put the box back up on a shelf in the closet when they're done and walk away. S•ut shame is more lasting than just a bedroom encounter, with a world where provocative dress is seen as disrespect or worse to men (and who decides what is provocative? The dresser or the viewer?) and therefore justification of disrespect or violence to ****s. It leads to violence, rape, and broken lives.

[Shananigans]

I wonder if it's a coincidence that we have seen the vaginas of B. Spears, Lindsey Hohands, and that one rich, blonde girl with the crazy eye...and, they are now just famous for being the subject of public ridicule...

I honestly really did like Britney back in the day...she used to be really good. (Don't judge me on that statement, I was like 12).

Anyway, our society has a fascination with watching train wrecks...and, that's what a lot of these celebs are basically. I think Spears really was having a hard time, and it makes me a little sad that being famous essentially ruined her life.

She did make a lot of mistakes though...but, what gets remembered is that she WAS famous, she was (at one time) beautiful, and she completely destroyed herself.

IMO, dressing skanky is the least of that girl's worries. She has never been much on the fashion radar. There was that outfit with the yellow snake, and that was kind of edgy. But, in general, I have seen her labia, and her wandering around in clothes too tight (she's a big girl), and some Uggs. Lol usually with a sucker in her mouth.

Is this sl*tty Britney? I dont like :(

Okay, but that one song...If You Seek Amy...okay, I liked that video. She was skanking it up a little..,and, it's a shame song of mine. But, I like it lol

[docrobbysherry]

I honestly don't know you from Adam. But, if you wish to pick that long post a$$ post apart where I was saying what I meant behind "clothes arent needed to feel feminine" and boil it down to one sentence to support your own views, that's fine too. Btw, I am a GG...I didn't much feel like you were actually really listening to me, but that's cool too.
While Shana's posts seem to describe why and what I do as Sherry to a T, I dislike the way she constantly uses the phrase, "feel feminine". While I often feel pretty, sexy, hot, etc. when dressed "sl---y" at home in private, I don't have a clue of what, "feeling fem", is like! Probably, anymore than u know what being what a man is like, Shana!

I strive to LOOK AS FEM AS POSSIBLE and that's quite enuff! And, the hotter and more fem I look, the more exciting the vision in the mirror becomes! Sherry is MY female fantasy. I'll take her out looking nice, but like your SO, Shana, her sexiest looks r left in my bedroom!

[whowhatwhen]

Why not start a general style/clothing thread to help newbies pick out more acceptable clothing and styles?
By acceptable I mean normal, everyday wear.

C'mon!
Pass down your wisdom :)

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Wow - this thread had really heated up since I last came on line - what a hornets nest I seem to have poked!

I'll try to remember everything I want to say but there's so many new posts I'm actually getting a bit lost myself

First if all, can I just say to Laura912 - looking at your avatar I certainly wouldnt think "tart" you look great -

Girltoy - please dont worry at all but me thinking you are being argumentative - I like a good discussion and at the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - if we cant discuss things like adults we are lost really arent we.



Sometimes this is out of our hands (applicable to both men and women). I’ve read numerous posts on this forum wherein the poster has been flirted with while dressed in a moderate fashion. Would it be safe to say that you were not dressed like a ‘****’ or a ‘tart’ when your husband approached you initially and asked you for a first date? One’s attire does not dictate the behavior of others, it is an expression of one’s self. Unless the person comes out and states in no uncertain terms what their motivations are for dressing in a particular manner, a statement that they’re dressing to attract or sexually arouse someone is an inferred (and potentially erroneous) statement.

Yes, absolutely - there is always the potential to be flirted with or hit on - whatever you're wearing - and no, I wasnt dressed tarty when my husband first asked me for a date. lol - my point here is that in most cases, the type of "hit" a guy makes on a girl can depend a lot on what she is wearing and how she is behaving.
A girl dressed attractively, acting in an appropriate manner is much more likely to be approached for a date by a guy who is looking for a relationship because he likes the look of her, likes the way she is behaving, wouldnt feel embarrassed to take her out to dinner etc..

A girl dressed like a tart is more likely to be hit on by a guy who is looking for a quick screw, up against the wall around the back of the club etc. its highly unlikely he will ask her on a date, take her out to dinner or home to meet his mother.

Whilst in an ideal world it may be wrong to judge a person by their clothing but thats the way it is - and chances are, if they are dressing sl***y then they are acting the same way and are giving out the vibes that they are "up for it".

How is a normal guy supposed to read what a female's intentions are? they look for signals, albeit some are very subtle and subconscious, they are there - he reads them, acts on them - or not.

Your analagy of the "scruffy biker" situation is a perfect example - people, rightly or wrongly, look at the clothes and decide in their mind whether this or that person is someone the are comfortable about or not.


Yes, there’s the potential that a horny guy will attempt to pick up on a CD. There’s also the ability of said CD to politely turn the person down, leaving the scene (or contacting security/police if need be). There’s the responsibility of the CD to frequent a safe place while dressed. There’s the risk of getting their face kicked in. There’s also the potential to get your face kicked in while getting cash out of the ATM while dressed in drab.

I'm not sure how sympathetic the cops would be in that situation - they are human too and could well see the s***y dressed CD as "asking for it" and being willfully provocative.
Yes you can get mugged at the ATM but would you take out your cash and start counting out the hundred dollar bills in full view of everyone, no you'd be fairly discreet and careful. It's all about appropriate actions in certain places.


Stating that it is disrespectful of women is your right, and I respect your opinion. I am curious, do you think that women who dress in a provocative fashion and behave in a flirtatious manner are also disrespectful of women? I just want to understand if this is a double standard

quick answer, Yes! they are being disrespectful of their own gender - but there is a difference between dressing provocatively and dressing like a s**t, and there's being flirtatious and then there's acting like "your up for it" - a fine line but one that I believe most GG's do comprehend.

my original statement
Absolutely I think there is an argument as to why a GG would go out looking like a tart but that's not the discussion we are having here.

I said this because we were discussing CD'ers on a CD forum but no, I dont have double standards, its just as shameful for a GG to dress and behave like a tart as it is a CD'er. I am a firm believer in what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

It has always annoyed me that a guy who sleeps around is "having a good time" whereas a female who has a few sexual partners is "an easy lay" but I digress.

Kim - yes your post makes very good sense, not rambling at all!

I'd like to say here that I dont really consider a maids outfit as tarty, it may fetish but not really tarty - I think we all know what tart looks like, its not the little black dress, its not the short skirt, its not the fishnet stockings, its not the high heels, its things like

skirts so short they show your undergarments
see-through blouses, with a black bra underneath
very short red pvc skirts
thigh length patent boots with 4 inch heels
over the top makeup with bright red lipstick and bright red fingernails

buts its not one item on its own, its the whole package - so please, if any of you have some of these garments, dont jump on me and beat me with a big stick because any of these garments can be worn in a non-tarty way.

I have worn the little black dress, fairly short with sheer black stockings, red nail polish and red lipstick and not felt in the least bit tarty -
I hope you all know what I'm meaning here.

And finally, phew, whilst I am sure nobody is deliberately trying to offend or be disrespectful of women, A CD'er going out dressed like a tart and acting like a tart is, IMO perpetuating the idea that women are sex objects to be used and leered at. This is what I find offensive. We GG's have fought long and hard to dispel this image and be seen as people with intelligence, values and feelings and it disappoints me that any CD'ers, as a much persecuted minority group seeking acceptance by the public, would undermine us and our status in society.

Sorry for the diatribe, I'm knackered now after all that - think I need a drink........

[Eryn]

While I'm not big on the s**t look, I do have my moments. I think a lot of it comes from the fact that I'm exploring the same things as some GGs do from ages 13-25, but all out of order and with a 50ish body. I know that a particular look is all wrong for me, but I still have to try it to have the experience. Some CDers, like some GGs, get stuck at this stage for an extended period of time. No big deal for either group.

Do I dress to attract men? Heavens no! The though of actually attracting a man has been worrisome to me. Then I looked in a mirror while dressed and realized that I could stop worrying about attracting men. :)

Do I go out s***ty? Nope, unless it is to a CDing event where one is expected to be a bit edgy, and even then I opt for tasteful side. Pretty hard to do the cleavage thing when one doesn't have any surplus flesh to rearrange!

BTW, having recently gone to a renaissance faire, I note that CDers have no exclusivity in the enjoyment of dressing up to look s***ty. Everywhere one looked one could see breasts of all sizes served up on shelves!

[Britney Johnson]

Hi all... This is such a tough talk about what is right and what is wrong with how a CD'r should dress. I don't classify myself as a CD, but know that untile I transition, I totally fall into the group that enjoys looking and feeling sexy. By that, I mean that my breast size is a D cup, I enjoy wearing fitted pencil skirts and heels that are in the 4-5 inche range. Although some may find this a ****ty work, I do not go out in public letting others believing that I am ****ty. I conduct myself very appropriately. I have some club wear as well, and have worn it out a few times with the girls on those fun sexy nights as well. Most women have the opportunity to enjoy this while they are still growing up and working thru the process of finding themselves. That is all we are doing as well, finding ourselves and figuring out where we fit in and what makes us feel comfortable with who we are. It is a difficult road, and we may not make all the right decisions, but as we progress on our journeys we become more aware of how we may be perceived by others. There are those that enjoy the attention of dressing very provocatively and I constantly see it on Craigs List, not only as the transgendered community, but also GG's that put themselves out there. I would have to agree, that there may be some low self esteem issues or, maybe they just enjoy sex that much. I don't know if I have spoken out of turn here, but I figure to each their own. There are some wound full people out there, and I won't ever cut someone short for being who they are. I don't like to be judged eighter, so why should I judge others. If there is something that I don't like or necessarily agree with, I just remove myself from that situation. That is just me though. It is unfortunate that society has to judge a group on one or a few individuals..... Anyway, hugs n love to all....Mmuuaahhh

[Pythos]

While I often feel pretty, sexy, hot, etc. when dressed "sl---y" at home in private, I don't have a clue of what, "feeling fem", is like! Probably, anymore than u know what being what a man is like

This is a masterful statement, and one that is not spoken often enough. I can have no more an idea of what it feels to be a woman as I can have an idea of what it is to be a cat. Of course I can take on the social aspects of a woman, but I NEVER can know what it is like to be one.

I don't feel "feminine" in my stuff. Never have. I do feel attractive, or exotic usually in my stuff. I feel I am breaking or stretching boundaries that normally do not get tested in our silly society. There are days I do feel like giving up though, and just going "Joe Normal"

[PrettyFlowingGown]

I agree with OP totally. I dont understand it. I see alot of CD's when i go out wear short leather skirts, skimpy lace tops, etc. and it does'nt look good.
I get laughed at cause I wear long flowing skirts, pretty tops, etc. and get told I look to formal and ladylike. Thats the way I am, i like to feel pretty and look pretty.

[CINDYO]

any guy that dresses as a SL**TY female is insulting women, and wanting to draw attention to themselves, specifically from men. They are gay men looking for attention from men. period.

[Claire_tv_uk]

i think some people are deluding theselves here,

any crossdresser who dresses in public and doesn't pass (and if we're being brutally honest thats about 95% of us, myself included), wether they're wearing demure and age appropriate clothing or a short skirt, stocking, heels and a see through top with their bra showing, is going to be ridiculed and mocked by the general public, thats a fact.

if you believe that if we all went out dressed like church goers, that the public would suddenly understand us and think we're normal then you're so deluded its not even worth discussing.

I can assure you that when guys see a crossdresser, however they are dressed they see it as amusing and in no way think that the crossdresser is representing the entire female population.

[Badtranny]

i think some people are deluding themselves here,

What? That's crazy!

;-)

[suchacutie]

Just for the record, I completly agree with TxKimberly that I totally dress in a way that makes Tina feel terrific about herself, and that was at my wife's suggestion that if you don't feel terrific in your clothes then it's the wrong look! After all, there is a very happy marriage involved, so I'm definitely NOT dressing to impress anyone else. Tina does like to impress my wife at how well she has dressed, coordinated, etc! It's simply the notion of success and having dressed as an adult an not like a child.

Now, does it impress us that Tina walks out of the bedroom looking like "a million dollars"? You bet it does! One reason is: holy cow, he took that aging body and really make it look good! Another is that there is a significant learning curve to pull that off! It's a real sense of achievement!

Lastly, think about the fact that the more skin that is shown, the harder it is to pull off a "look". Just to do it successfully in that framework is one terrific success (one that I would not be able do well, btw!) So some of the desire to dress in a provocative way is that "we can", and the other is to impress ourselves, in general.

Dressing inappropriately in public is always questionable, but that surely is not something limited to the CD population! :)

[Leslie Langford]

While I admit that I do have some sexy lingerie that borders on what some might consider sl*tty, I only put this on occasionally and within the confines of my own home when no one else is around. Childish, silly, self-indulgent, and even a bit fetishistic - maybe...but it's also an occasional and harmless indulgence that helps connect me to my inner femininity when I need some affirmation in that direction.

On the other hand, whenever I go out in public in "Leslie" mode, I always dress stylishly and age-appropriately, and in a manner that is respectful to the women that I try to emulate. This "pay it forward" approach has served me well over the years. While I have obviously been read by GG's on numerous occasions despite my best efforts to pass, they invariably respond to me warmly and treat me with dignity and respect because they can sense the high regard I hold for women when I conduct myself this manner.

[April_Ligeia]

If you're going to crossdress, you might as well dress however you want to. After all, the taboo is already broken. I often wear "****ty" makeup, I don't think it's right to judge other people's personal style choices so harshly. Also, how can you accuse someone of insulting an entire gender because of the way they choose to dress? Isn't that part of the point -- we can dress the way we want? I guess I just don't understand what the controversy in this thread is about. I believe in freedom of expression in order to be happy, wherever that leads, it's not hurting anyone.

[Barbara Dugan]

I have to be honest and confess that I learned to dress s***t from watching gg not from fellow crossdressers, at first it was just a form of mimic the image but when I discovered the impact that you can have on other people when you are overtly sexual it really helped me to understand my own sexuality...but I always keep telling mysel''why dress s***t when you can only get naked''

[Lorileah]

What I cannot understand is why a heterosexual male would want to dress in such a way and to want to attract or sexually arouse another guy.

The same reason some GG's do it and then walk away. Because they can. It makes them feel they have a power. It isn't any deeper than that. They want to be noticed and when it works they have the satisfaction of knowing they did it.


From a GG point of view, s****y dressing is not in the least bit sexy, its vulgar and unattractive and for a man to dress this way seems to me to be disrespectful of women generally.
Basically you have described what many GG's believe about Crossdressing in general.

My understanding of CD'ing is that you feel the need to express your feminine side - so what are you saying by dressing like a *****? that your feminine side is a s**t??? and some dress because they like the clothes and some dress because they get a sexual thrill. We are not all the same.


I can, to an extent, understand wanting to dress and be pretty, and feminine and look nice but the whole streetwalker but I dont get at all.

remember that streetwalkers are women too. As a community we are a mirror of the world. There are some here who dress like little girls. There are some who dress like elderly ladies (and several will tell you that at my age I should...but I don't). There are those that even dress like Scarlett O'Hara.

On weekends I go out. I see many 20 something GG's going into clubs dressed as you describe as sl*tty. Maybe even people you know do that when they go out. They dress that way for many reasons. When they get older they start asking the younger women "why do you do that?" I know many women who 30 years ago wore skirts that should have been headbands and I have heard those same women tsk tsk the younger women for dressing "sl*tty".

The answer is that everyone dresses to please themselves first. It is that simple. I see things everyday that I just wonder "don't they have a mirror in their house?". I make that judgement and I know I shouldn't. But one person's sl*t is another person's sexy. I don't like the word sl*t. It is pejorative and rude.

addendum

any guy that dresses as a SL**TY female is insulting women, and wanting to draw attention to themselves, specifically from men. They are gay men looking for attention from men. period.

That was rude and uncalled for and very wrong They may not even be Bi. Geez how many times are we going to beat the whole sexuality thing to death here. Again that is like painting every woman whpo goes clubbing as being of no morals.

[ArleneRaquel]

Lorileah,
The post says it all, a great addition to the thread.

[Lyndaloves]

I dress to look like a woman, any woman, its my choice how I want to dress
When dressed I also desire and want to be with a man.
To me it taking that extra to being/feeling like a woman.
Sorry to say that all I'm getting is that only hetro males are aloowed to crossdress
and only in high collared blouses, long skirts and flats. with no breast bumps showing.
It kinda of getting to be a real censership thread.
Maybe we need a manditory crossdressing uniform that we can only wear and get our own compound and all.
Anyone want to be the leader
Last time for me at this thread, tired of getting preached at.

Lynda

[Eryn]

i think some people are deluding theselves here...any crossdresser who dresses in public and doesn't pass (and if we're being brutally honest thats about 95% of us, myself included), wether they're wearing demure and age appropriate clothing or a short skirt, stocking, heels and a see through top with their bra showing, is going to be ridiculed and mocked by the general public, thats a fact. if you believe that if we all went out dressed like church goers, that the public would suddenly understand us and think we're normal then you're so deluded its not even worth discussing. I can assure you that when guys see a crossdresser, however they are dressed they see it as amusing and in no way think that the crossdresser is representing the entire female population.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. I'm 6'2" and even my femme voice is deep. I don't doubt that I get read now and then. My wife and I go to mainstream places. Restaurants, theaters, fairs, shopping, etc. and I do interact with others. I'm also dressed appropriately for the situation. I don't recall having been either ridiculed or mocked in public.

The reason, in my thinking, is that even if someone is 95% sure that I am male, there is still going to be some doubt in their mind that I might just be a spectacularly tall GG with an angular face. It would be incredibly embarassing to blatantly misidentify a woman as a man so simple politeness demands that the people interacting with me treat me as the gender that I am presenting.

The only danger comes from people whose simple politeness is undeveloped (as in children) or impaired (as by alcohol).

Also, please note that I said the I disagreed with you. I did not characterize you as "deluded." It's better to discuss the topic itself, not attack the intellegence of the other people in the discussion.

[Jenniferathome]

I dress to look like a woman, any woman, its my choice how I want to dress
Lynda

Lynda, I think you are missing the point. It is your privilege to dress any way you like. It is also SP's privilege to point out that "****ty" is disrespectful to most women. Her question is "why"?

By the way SP, most crossdressers don't go ****ty. I'd say most of us are looking to be age and dress appropriate. Some, as Badtranny pointed out, are in it for the moment.

[mylilsecret8]

I do think that certain standards of dress should be maintained when going out in public

Interesting topic and lots of good opinions from all. As long as people remain within the law, does there need to be strict standards? And who gets to decide what is appropriate and what is not? What you might consider ****ty might be perceived by others as sexy.

If I see a GG wearing a short skirt or if her thong peeks out of her low rise pants, I don't think less of her or think she must be a ****. 100 years ago someone who showed their knees would be looked at very different than today.

Personally, I feel sexy in all kinds of feminine attire...from jeans, conservative tops and dresses, as well as short skirts, garter belts, lacy bra and panties and the highest heels I can find. At no time do I feel disrespect for GGs and hope none is perceived.

[ReineD]

A major difficulty with some of the disagreements here is that everyone has their own definition of what looks sl*tty, and some people think that looking sexy is someone else's definition of looking sl*tty.

And on top of the different images everyone has in their minds, CDers have different aesthetics. One CDer may be intending to dress "sexy" while someone else might look at her and define it as "sl*tty", and vice versa.

The OP, Silentpartner, provided a description of the differences, that I think most people might agree with:



I'd like to say here that I dont really consider a maids outfit as tarty, it may fetish but not really tarty - I think we all know what tart looks like, its not the little black dress, its not the short skirt, its not the fishnet stockings, its not the high heels, its things like

skirts so short they show your undergarments
see-through blouses, with a black bra underneath
very short red pvc skirts
thigh length patent boots with 4 inch heels
over the top makeup with bright red lipstick and bright red fingernails

But its not one item on its own, its the whole package - so please, if any of you have some of these garments, dont jump on me and beat me with a big stick because any of these garments can be worn in a non-tarty way.

I have worn the little black dress, fairly short with sheer black stockings, red nail polish and red lipstick and not felt in the least bit tarty -

I hope you all know what I'm meaning here.

And last no matter how someone dresses, whether they consider themselves sexy or sl*tty, it all has to do with the motive: if they dress that way for sexual release and they are hetero, they are not doing it to attract men. Generally speaking.

If they dress that way because it is their personal definition of what beautiful women look like and their reason for dressing is to feel beautiful and not for sexual release, they still aren't doing it to attract men. Generally speaking.

If they're attracted to men when they're in guy mode, they may well dress that way to attract them, but then they're not hetero. :p

But I seriously doubt the majority of CDers will dress like that in the mainstream, unless they are going to a club where everyone else is dressing the same way. At least, I hope not.

EDIT
As an aside, I agree with Bab's point. If the goal is to emulate the epitome of womanhood, then dressing like a sl*t (or "sexy" depending on the definitions) gives the impression this is what the CDer prizes above all else in women, rather than appreciate them for their intelligence or their personalities. THIS is what GGs find offensive.

But, I think we need to keep in mind the different motives as explained above and also the fact that CDers who dress this way don't necessarily wish to emulate a woman's entire being. They just want to express the physical aspect. If the CDer's goal is sexual release, this has nothing to do with what he might respect and find appealing in a woman as a mate (assuming he can bring himself to appreciate a woman as much as he appreciates himself dressed). It's just sexual release based on his personal brand of sexuality. If on the other hand a CDer believes that women who dress this way represent the apex of feminine beauty then .... I don't know what to say other than he needs to expand his horizons a little.

And then we have all the CDers who don't or seldom dress that way at all unless it is just very occasionally for a variety of different reasons.

[Babeba]

Whew!! There is a lot of good discussion happening here. :) as Lorileah pointed out, we are like a mini reflection of the wider community, and I don't think there will ever be full agreement on points like these. More's the pity, but that is as life is.



Why not start a general style/clothing thread to help newbies pick out more acceptable clothing and styles?
By acceptable I mean normal, everyday wear.

C'mon!
Pass down your wisdom :)

Here is as far as I would touch this one: wear whatever grabs your fancy at home. Before you go out, close your eyes and pretend you have an 18 year old daughter. Picture her in that outfit walking downtown. If you feel uncomfortable imagining your child dressed like that, or would be worried about her safety, then it's not a good choice to wear that one out.


Hi all... This is such a tough talk about what is right and what is wrong with how a CD'r should dress. I don't classify myself as a CD, but know that untile I transition, I totally fall into the group that enjoys looking and feeling sexy. By that, I mean that my breast size is a D cup, I enjoy wearing fitted pencil skirts and heels that are in the 4-5 inche range. Although some may find this a ****ty work, I do not go out in public letting others believing that I am ****ty. I conduct myself very appropriately. I have some club wear as well, and have worn it out a few times with the girls on those fun sexy nights as well. Most women have the opportunity to enjoy this while they are still growing up and working thru the process of finding themselves. That is all we are doing as well, finding ourselves and figuring out where we fit in and what makes us feel comfortable with who we are. It is a difficult road, and we may not make all the right decisions, but as we progress on our journeys we become more aware of how we may be perceived by others. There are those that enjoy the attention of dressing very provocatively and I constantly see it on Craigs List, not only as the transgendered community, but also GG's that put themselves out there. I would have to agree, that there may be some low self esteem issues or, maybe they just enjoy sex that much. I don't know if I have spoken out of turn here, but I figure to each their own. There are some wound full people out there, and I won't ever cut someone short for being who they are. I don't like to be judged eighter, so why should I judge others. If there is something that I don't like or necessarily agree with, I just remove myself from that situation. That is just me though. It is unfortunate that society has to judge a group on one or a few individuals..... Anyway, hugs n love to all....Mmuuaahhh

Briney, I really liked your post. :) heck yeah, there is nothing wrong with being sexy outside - but there is a certain point when sexy becomes ****ty and that is good for no one, for the reasons you mentioned like low self esteem.


i think some people are deluding theselves here,

any crossdresser who dresses in public and doesn't pass (and if we're being brutally honest thats about 95% of us, myself included), wether they're wearing demure and age appropriate clothing or a short skirt, stocking, heels and a see through top with their bra showing, is going to be ridiculed and mocked by the general public, thats a fact.

if you believe that if we all went out dressed like church goers, that the public would suddenly understand us and think we're normal then you're so deluded its not even worth discussing.

I can assure you that when guys see a crossdresser, however they are dressed they see it as amusing and in no way think that the crossdresser is representing the entire female population.

Line up two people who are dressed like porn stars. Yeah, you're right that the general public would make big judgements of the one born male they wouldn't of the born female - but there is still the whole idea of sl•tdom on top of that. The thing that worries many GGs is that if a cross dresser dresses as a reflection of their ideas of women, and their ideas of women are based only on easy availability of sex - that is an uncomfortable view.

You know how a lot of CDs, TS folk and TGs who go out in public are concerned about which bathroom they can go in? And a lot of the general public seems uncomfortable with the idea of a dude in the ladies' room? If that CD or TG or TS person was not dressed with sex appeal front and centre I betcha they would have less of a chance of being hassled for being some sex predator or pervert.


While I admit that I do have some sexy lingerie that borders on what some might consider sl*tty, I only put this on occasionally and within the confines of my own home when no one else is around. Childish, silly, self-indulgent, and even a bit fetishistic - maybe...but it's also an occasional and harmless indulgence that helps connect me to my inner femininity when I need some affirmation in that direction.

On the other hand, whenever I go out in public in "Leslie" mode, I always dress stylishly and age-appropriately, and in a manner that is respectful to the women that I try to emulate. This "pay it forward" approach has served me well over the years. While I have obviously been read by GG's on numerous occasions despite my best efforts to pass, they invariably respond to me warmly and treat me with dignity and respect because they can sense the high regard I hold for women when I conduct myself this manner.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SEXY!!! Just acting as a **** is demeaning! A previous poster pointed out, it's disrespectful to men as well, presumably to assume that men are so easily manipulated and aroused. :)

[Claire_tv_uk]

Sorry, but I disagree with you. I'm 6'2" and even my femme voice is deep. I don't doubt that I get read now and then. My wife and I go to mainstream places. Restaurants, theaters, fairs, shopping, etc. and I do interact with others. I'm also dressed appropriately for the situation. I don't recall having been either ridiculed or mocked in public.

The reason, in my thinking, is that even if someone is 95% sure that I am male, there is still going to be some doubt in their mind that I might just be a spectacularly tall GG with an angular face. It would be incredibly embarassing to blatantly misidentify a woman as a man so simple politeness demands that the people interacting with me treat me as the gender that I am presenting.

The only danger comes from people whose simple politeness is undeveloped (as in children) or impaired (as by alcohol).

Also, please note that I said the I disagreed with you. I did not characterize you as "deluded." It's better to discuss the topic itself, not attack the intellegence of the other people in the discussion.

delusion does not imply a lack of intelligence, more a lack of willingness to understand a situation,

when i said most Cd'ers will be mocked by the public, i probably should have said that this will not neccessarily be made public by them, most people in general have an inherant politeness and a wish not to cause a scene so they'll of course be polite and nice to you, especially in the places you frequent as they're service based industries that are taught to be polite no matter who they deal with,

you hear all the time in the shopping thread when people say "yeah i tried on this, that and the other in the store the other day and the lady in the shop smiled and was very helpfull" , well obviously, they'd get sacked if they weren't, i'd still imagine a lot of them when they're on their lunch break have a jolly old laugh about us. Does this bother us? not really, but you can't say that its proof of our acceptance by the public just because we don't get laughed at when we buy clothes, in the same way that you can't say its acceptance by the public because you don't get laughed at by them in a restaurant, a lot of them will go home and say "did you see that tranny (or worse things ) on that other table?"

I don't think we'll ever be accepted in my lifetime (im early 30s) and no ammount of "appropriate" dressing will change that.

I have never been out dressed, nor do i want to but i do admire those of you who do btw.






Line up two people who are dressed like porn stars. Yeah, you're right that the general public would make big judgements of the one born male they wouldn't of the born female - but there is still the whole idea of sl•tdom on top of that. The thing that worries many GGs is that if a cross dresser dresses as a reflection of their ideas of women, and their ideas of women are based only on easy availability of sex - that is an uncomfortable view.

You know how a lot of CDs, TS folk and TGs who go out in public are concerned about which bathroom they can go in? And a lot of the general public seems uncomfortable with the idea of a dude in the ladies' room? If that CD or TG or TS person was not dressed with sex appeal front and centre I betcha they would have less of a chance of being hassled for being some sex predator or pervert.



i can only bow to your knowledge here as i don't ever have to use the ladies room. But i'd say it depended on WHERE those toilets were, in a sidestreet nightclub you'd get a different reaction that if you were in a classy restaurant.

[WifeofWrenchette]

what I would like to know, is why when a GG gets married she wear's sweat's all the time.I'm married and I've never worn sweats.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Lynda, I think you are missing the point. It is your privilege to dress any way you like. It is also SP's privilege to point out that "****ty" is disrespectful to most women. Her question is "why"?

By the way SP, most crossdressers don't go ****ty. I'd say most of us are looking to be age and dress appropriate. Some, as Badtranny pointed out, are in it for the moment.

Jen I appreciate that - I know that most CD'ers are probably not into that kind of look - I've seen some beautifully dressed CD'ers - with excellent taste in clothing and dress sense.

My original post was made because I am interested as to why anyone would want to put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation
and why they would want to seemingly attract bad reactions from GG's - the very gender that they are allegedly trying to portray ane emulate.


I really didnt wanted this thread to end up as a slanging match or an "I'm better than you" competition and I have no wish to make personal attacks on anyone's choice of clothing - it was merely a question "why dress like that"

The only way GG's are ever going to start to understand CD'ing is by asking questions and expressing their views -

[Amber Chen]

I hope it is alright for me to reply given that you did not include my classification.

In my opinion it is a males sexual drive combined with his cross dressing desires that equal how he dresses.

If he is sexually turned on by what he sees in the mirror when he is dressed he therefore fulfills his need for sexual arousal, brings himself to climax and the cycle completes itself until the next time.
This is typical sexual fetish behavior and what you read concerning ****ty dressing is actually part of his pathology.

I don't agree with it, I don't like it and I fully agree that it's disrespectful of women.
With that said the reason behind it is as ancient as human sexual behavior is because that's exactly what it is.

Sexual fetishism is a compulsion not unlike Trichotillomania which is the compulsion of ripping out one's own hair.
It has to be handled as another male need for sexual arousal and nothing more.

Sadly men have been sexualizing women for eons and it is only recently in the grand scheme of all of this that women have gained notably more respect and station in society.
Attempt to place this in the context of typical male behavior that it is.
That isn't an excuse for the behavior but merely and explanation of it.


Julia

I agree with Julia...dressing this way is the "fetishistic" part of crossdressing that many of us (myself included) began crossdressing. Some of us, perhaps most of us, "grow up"...that is, progress towards a more appropriate expression of 'womanhood', and need to experiment, as GG teenagers do, with different looks/styles until we find out what works for us.


Quite simple really. They dress in a way that pleases themselves. As soon as they see themselves in the mirror with the short skirt and stilettos, they pitch a tent in the skirt and they're back in sweat pants 15 minutes later.

Yes, Badtranny, this IS the way many of us start!


As others have said, some men dress that way in private for their own pleasure (think some are a bit too judgmental about that, males are naturally driven to have orgasms and using dressing in private to accomplish that isn't exactly the most horrendous thing in the world, by a long shot.) Once TVF male finds it turns him on, whether it is dressing up like a young tramp, a drag queen or Hillary Clinton, he will just naturally go back to it time and again to get is natural, biologically driven fix. It doesn't mean he is a pedophile, serial killer, wife beater or bad person in general.

As for why some who are heterosexual but want males to find them attractive, it might be a way of validating their skills are dressing. I don't dress for this purpose myself, but for some it might be a way to prove they are skilled at dressing up and creating an illusion (that is, they are skilled enough to not only pass around other males but can create such a pleasing illusion it is good enough to actually turn the males on.) Can think of it in terms of a golfer making par (passing), as opposed to going under par (passable and look good enough to turn males on.)

Vickie: again, I see that this way of dressing provocatively is a reflection of the images men are fed of 'sexy' women, which we are attempting to emulate. It takes time, practice, and helpful friends (both GGs and other CDs) to get to the point of knowing how to dress for the occasion.

I am bi, and have dressed to please my guy while we were going out, but never too "s**tty". And yes, I've attracted many other guys' eyes, even then. It felt nice...validating all my work and effort.

I have also gone out with my bi group to a lesbian bar, dressed in jeans, sandals, leotard top, tied up blue workshirt, light makeup, hair in a ponytail, and been accepted as one of the 'women' there. Dressing for the occasion, again!

[Babeba]

i can only bow to your knowledge here as i don't ever have to use the ladies room. But i'd say it depended on WHERE those toilets were, in a sidestreet nightclub you'd get a different reaction that if you were in a classy restaurant.

Maybe. I would think you'd get a better reaction dressed like a **** in the club bathroom, not the classy restaurant whether you were GG or GM.


I'm married and I've never worn sweats.

I saw too many Facebook fan pages for Lululemon to REALLY believe that all guys despise sweatpants.


Silent, I think there is a little cross-confusion on the thread about whether someone is dressing in public or not. They have very different justifications and reasons and I think people are discussing one subject (i.e. dressing in a public place) and then a person is replying to another entirely (dressing in the privacy of your home).
It is a very interesting thread so could you clarify the public or private aspect?

To me, there is a big worry about the **** mentality. How many here, in the presence of no one in their own home, think it's appropriate to say, "gee whizzikers! I think I'll dress up like a sexy savage today!" and proceed to pull on a short, short fringed and beaded leather mini, wampum instead of a shirt (or cleverly hiding a bra stiffed to the gills for maximum size), beaded but super high stiletto sandals, lavish on "war paint" and pull their best war cry pose fingering their Tomahawk in the mirror? I think we can all agree that's a little appallingly disrespectful to millennia of native culture and tradition to flatten them down like that to one or maybe two dimensions (exoticism and sex object).

I think that saying, "I want to be a **** today!" and deliberately going out to create that image, shows a disrespect for women at a basic level. Even in the privacy of one's own home. And I think that if that is something you do, you need to own it and admit it to yourself that it is sexist, elitist, and disrespectful. I'm not saying you need to stop, it's a free world... But you need to know that porn isn't real, and that it is not respectful to use and propagate the **** stereotype.

[Eryn]

delusion does not imply a lack of intelligence, more a lack of willingness to understand a situation,

when i said most Cd'ers will be mocked by the public, i probably should have said that this will not neccessarily be made public by them, most people in general have an inherant politeness and a wish not to cause a scene so they'll of course be polite and nice to you, especially in the places you frequent as they're service based industries that are taught to be polite no matter who they deal with,

you hear all the time in the shopping thread when people say "yeah i tried on this, that and the other in the store the other day and the lady in the shop smiled and was very helpfull" , well obviously, they'd get sacked if they weren't, i'd still imagine a lot of them when they're on their lunch break have a jolly old laugh about us. Does this bother us? not really, but you can't say that its proof of our acceptance by the public just because we don't get laughed at when we buy clothes, in the same way that you can't say its acceptance by the public because you don't get laughed at by them in a restaurant, a lot of them will go home and say "did you see that tranny (or worse things ) on that other table?"

I don't think we'll ever be accepted in my lifetime (im early 30s) and no ammount of "appropriate" dressing will change that.

I have never been out dressed, nor do i want to but i do admire those of you who do.

You should really try it! If you had asked me about public reaction to CDers when I was still closeted I would have said pretty much the same thing as you.

As far as what people say about me out of earshot, I really don't care. We all discuss the people around us, not always charitably. The fact that such discussion is only acceptable in private indicates that a degree of tolerance has been achieved. It is unrealistic to expect the world to totally embrace us, as has been amply demonstrated by the experiences of gays, minorities, tattooed people, etc. The fact that the "haters" have to keep their hate to themselves is quite an achievement!

BTW, service people have to be nice to us, but I do interact with quite a few people in public. It was scary at first, but it turned out that people are pretty nice, even to tall, not-so-attractive woman! :)

[NicoleScott]

Pythos said it way, way back in the thread (Post #21): we're far too deep in the weeds here. It's not complicated.
It's not my intention to dress sl*tty (why this word is taboo has me scratching my head), but I like to dress and make up very over-the-top. I like to see it as glamorous, but some see this as sl*tty, so I'm not offended by the label. A few others have said they, too, like to dress this way and why. Nevertheless, many (GG, TS, CD) who don't dress this way still think they have it figured out and take offense even when those who do dress this way have said that no offense is intended. You are in control of whether or not you take offense, so handle it.
For some TG's, expressing as a woman is a very real, deeply internal, and natural thing. Or so they say. I'm not one of them, but I take their word for it. For others, it's all a fantasy, fun, and for pleasure. Some CD's just like to dress in their preferred style as it compels them at the time. Secretary, schoolgirl, maid, cheerleader, etc. and sometimes, sl*t. Big deal. Just more fantasy.

Since others can't know what I think or do in the privacy of my own home, it can't be sexist, elitist, or disrespectful. Please!

Not all sl*ts dress sl*tty, and not everyone who dresses sl*tty is a sl*t. Which means that none of it makes any sense at all.
Sl*tty, like beauty, is in the mind of the beholder.

Finally, SilentPartner, your previous posts have led me to think of you as open-minded and fair. You asked your question in order to understand, and you voiced your opinion even before reading any responses. So, from the responses from those who dress sl*tty, can you now believe that it's not done to attract men nor to disrespect women? What do you think now?

[whowhatwhen]

Some people simply want to be objectified/degraded/ect and that isn't specific to any one gender, is the problem just the use of the word "sl*t" or is it the fact that they're crossdressing to express it?

I think it's all part of a fantasy, to look easy/available to the opposite/same sex for a cheap, wham-bam-thank-you-maam thrill.
There's lots of skimpy/what you could call "sl*tty" clothes for guys too, but I think here because of the crossdressing factor things get complicated.

Porn might have something to do with it, but again, I think some people just get off being degraded and it reflects nothing about how they feel about women or men in general.


My favorite fantasy has nothing to do with clothes.
Myth busted! ;)
vvvvvvvv

[Lynn Marie]

109 comments on every crossdressers fantasy. This cracks me up!

[Marleena]

Once a CDer presents in public as female they lose the "male priviledge". They need to be aware of people and surroundings the same as any GG would. Dressing sl utty could put them into dangerous situations.

As far as what one does in the privacy of their own home does not matter to me. The fetish CDers take a lot of verbal abuse here and I feel sorry for them.

[Leslie Langford]

There's a huge contradiction here that no-one picked up on.
I can't find the proper term but it is mentioned in this thread somewhere.
It's the Tramp MArch or something (?) ,where women dress how the ever hell they WANT as a public protest that they should be able to wear whatever they want without "asking for it".

So you have a bunch of women showing disrespect for women, as a protest that they are not respected by men when they dress as a tart.

Nice one :)

Scarlet,

The word you are looking for is "Sl*twalk", which is a term that originated in my hometown of Toronto and spawned a series of protest marches by the same name starting with an initial rally held in that city in April, 2011.

Participants protested against explaining or justifying rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance as being an excuse for triggering such a misogynistic response on the part of certain males predisposed to such acts of violence. The basic premise here (which I personally find flawed) is that rape is not so much an act of purely sexual assault driven primarily by visual cues, but more of a generalized act of violence directed at women because of the basic misogynistic leanings of the perpetrators.

The back story here is that on January 24, 2011, Toronto Police Constable Michael Sanguinetti spoke on crime prevention at a York University safety forum at Osgoode Hall Law School. He was quoted as saying: "I've been told I'm not supposed to say this – however, women should avoid dressing like sl*ts in order not to be victimized." "Sl*twalk" movement co-founders Sonya Barnett and Heather Jarvis then decided to use the word sl*t in their response, observing that historically, "sl*t" has had negative connotations, and that their goal was to redeem that term. They further opined that women "are tired of being oppressed by sl*t-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work".

The forces of political correctness eventually prevailed, and Constable Sanguinetti later apologized for the remark saying: "I am embarrassed by the comment I made and it shall not be repeated." Nevertheless, the "Sl*twalk" phenomenon quickly gained traction world-wide, with more rallies held that year, and more to come this year as annual awareness events.

Personally, I find this whole line of reasoning among GG's as being dishonest, disingenuous, and frankly - manipulative of primal male sexual urges. There is a reason why girly magazines typically feature either naked or scantily-clad attractive young women wearing "f*ck me" stilettos and sporting seductive "come-hither" looks usually accompanied by a strategically placed tongue within an open, inviting mouth. More to the point, you don't often see the winsome young ladies in these magazines wearing shapeless jogging suits accessorized with either with Crocs, Birkenstocks, or Earth shoes.

Furthermore, ample medical studies have shown that women typically (and often subconsciously) dress in a far more provocative manner at certain points of their menstrual cycle when they are at their most fertile. This is just basic reproductive-driven human sexuality and not rocket science. To deny the existence of such primal urges is both dishonest and delusional, and not provoking them unnecessarily - especially when that potentially puts one in harm's way - is just plain common sense. No one in their right mind pokes an unleashed pit-bull in the eye with a sharp stick in the expectation that this will not have consequences, and in my mind this is no different - political correctness notwithstanding.

Yes, of course, being able to dress as one wishes really shouldn't be an issue (God knows, we CDer's certainly subscribe to that POV as well ;)) and men should be better than that. Problem is - we simply don't live in a perfect, just, and completely rational world despite all the wishful thinking that we might sometimes indulge in...

[whowhatwhen]

I remember when that blew up, god help you if you were near someone who listened to conservative talk radio.
The point was that women should be able to wear whatever they want and not have abuse handwaved away as "asking for it".

Men should be able to control themselves and if I were a man, I'd be pissed at those guys shaming those women since it implies that men have no control over themselves.

[Tamara Croft]

When me and my partner go out both dressed as 'girls', we go out dressed quite sl*tty, I don't see anything wrong with it? they are just clothes/makeup and not really harming anyone. Plenty of women, not CD's dress like it, what's the actual problem? Isn't it all about free will? gawd help us if we had to fight for the right to wear a short skirt and 6" heels... I'd have to put mine back in the closet :cry:

[NicoleScott]

Several threads have been started with the titles such as "Crossdresser gets attacked in ......." and everyone oos and aaas and says how terrible it is and how the community are so against you all, etc.etc. but does anyone actually know how this person was dressed or was behaving? Of course nobody should be attacked or ridiculed for the clothes they are wearing but provoking such attacks and ridicule by dressing and behaving in an inappropriate manner is just plain daft IMO

SilentPartner, this is double talk. You shouldn't be attacked because of your dress but you shouldn't have PROVOKED the attack by your dress. First question asked to rape victim by attorney representing accused rapist "What were you wearing when you were attacked?" Blame the victim.

[Leslie Langford]

But that's the whole point, whowhatwhen - some men don't have control over themselves in such instances.

Sure it's wrong and fundamentally indefensible, but that doesn't mean that the risk to one's safety in such situations doesn't exist. Is there really any value in being like the pedestrian on whose tombstone is engraved the caption "He Had The Right of Way"?

[whowhatwhen]

There is risk in anything, but it's also wrong to say that women shouldn't dress a certain way because men are what they are and can't help themselves.
Ideally society would take mental health seriously and detect people with such problems and get them help before they hurt anyone, but even if everyone dressed like nuns those same men are still going to assault them.

[Sandra]

gawd help us if we had to fight for the right to wear a short skirt and 6" heels... I'd have to put mine back in the closet :cry:

Yeah and without the 6inches you'd be a short arse :p

I have no problems with short skirts and heels, what I do think is wrong and this goes for anyone male or female is items being so short that it shows everything and in some cases I mean everything

[Tamara Croft]

Yeah and without the 6inches you'd be a short arse :p
Ooh you cheeky bugger :slap: (true though lol)


I have no problems with short skirts and heels, what I do think is wrong and this goes for anyone male or female is items being so short that it shows everything and in some cases I mean everything
Yeah now that I agree with and I'm sure you'll agree we've seen our fair share of those types at sparkle :eek:

[Sandra]

Ooh you cheeky bugger :slap: (true though lol)


Yeah now that I agree with and I'm sure you'll agree we've seen our fair share of those types at sparkle :eek:

Oh yes :rolleyes: ........................................

[CherryZips]

I think that saying, "I want to be a **** today!" and deliberately going out to create that image, shows a disrespect for women at a basic level. Even in the privacy of one's own home. And I think that if that is something you do, you need to own it and admit it to yourself that it is sexist, elitist, and disrespectful. I'm not saying you need to stop, it's a free world... But you need to know that porn isn't real, and that it is not respectful to use and propagate the **** stereotype.

OK I am one of those sick perverts that occasionally dressed as a "wh*r*" or a "sl*t" and I'd like to defend this. I have in the past dressed in rubber drag to a gay night club despite being straight. I guess I am one of those awful fetish transvestite that are the bottom of the hierarchy.

To answer the question why do we do it? Because it turns us on.

When you accuse the crossdresser who dresses in a overtly sexual manner of being "sexist, elitist, and disrespectful" you are trying to police sexuality in a naive way. Are all our sexual acts now expected to be judged in a similar manner?

Are we to criticize every woman who has a rape fantasy? Every gay man that fantasies about prison? Any couples that play doctor and nurse sex games? How about erotic romantic fiction? Is this all so so terribly wrong?

I grew up with this societal voice in my head telling me what an awful person I was for having such sick desires. I felt this very thing, that I was "an insult to women" for having these desires. Eventually I thought **** em, I'm just going to do what I want. Its not like you pick your sexuality at the shops. Do you really think crossdressers are having fun dressing up because they are having a holiday from their normal sexuality? But then perverts have "chosen" their sexuality haven't they? It's the gay choice accusation all over again. When did you choose to be straight? When did you choose to NOT like to dress a sl*t?

Another myth is the crossdresser is playing out some porn stereotype. This myth says more about what's going on in the minds of the accusers. It didn't happen that way for this crossdresser because ordinary porn isn't going do much for a fetish transvestite. I wish I did get my sexuality from porn. How easy life would be. A crossdresser is far more likely to be turned on by Cosmo than Playboy. Porn is not influencing men its exploiting desires already planted. Everyday life and media has far more influence. Even then its an invisible and mysterious process to such a level trying to control sexuality is unlikely to be very effective.

Lastly, sl*t as a pejorative term. I'd like to separate this into sexuality in appropriate and inappropriate contexts. I am not going to defend men or women dressing in a overt sexual manner and going to the school, shops or local amenities, its not the right place for it. That social taboo, which is all we need, is acceptable. But at night in clubs, at parties at special events people should be allowed to dress as they like.

I support the sl*t walks. One of their messages is that women are raped in all manner of clothes. And of course these clothes are sexual. Women are allowed to be sexual. What is not allowed is unsolicited sex or violence. If I cannot support a woman's right to wear what she likes how can I justify my own preference?

[Foxglove]

I have a couple of questions, if I can get my thoughts in order. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't dress "sl*tty" myself. Not my style. But I do dress "super-girly", which is still a long way from the way your average GG dresses. Now does that mean I'm making some sort of comment on GG's femininity? Am I challenging them in some way, being disrespectful in some way?

I can't see that I am. I'm TG, not GG, and as a TG person, I define my "femininity" for myself. I leave it to the GG's to define their own brand of femininity for themselves. It certainly won't be my brand. But why should there be any quarrel between us? I'm doing my thing, you do yours, and my thing is no comment whatsoever on yours.

There's also this point: when I do see GG's about town wearing dresses or skirts, they tend to be older women. In other words, I'm dressing more or less appropriate for my age group. Is anyone going to tell those GG's they can't dress the way they do? And if they can wear that stuff because it suits them, why can't I? If my notion of femininity approaches theirs, where's the harm?

And another point: all the stuff I wear, I do after all buy it in women's clothing shops. It is stuff made for women. So how can I be disrespectful to women when I'm wearing stuff that's made for women?

Which brings me back to the point of this thread. Those CDers who like to dress "sl*tty", where do they get the stuff they wear? Unless they make it themselves, they buy it in women's clothing shops. So it is clothing made for women. Which means that women can wear it if they want to. So if we're going to say that dressing "sl*tty" is disrespectful to women, then that disrespect comes ultimately from women. So what we've really got here is a quarrel among GG's. Some of you feel people shouldn't dress that way, and some of you are OK with it.

As I've said, I myself don't dress "sl*tty". But a CDer who does is doing his thing, just like a GG who buys and wears that stuff is doing her thing. So it seems to me that if this way of dressing is disrespectful, it's primarily a question to be directed at GG's (not at CDers), since it's from them that the clothing originally comes. No harm in asking the CDers why they like to wear it, but it's not a question for them alone.

Annabelle

[Shananigans]

I have no problems with short skirts and heels, what I do think is wrong and this goes for anyone male or female is items being so short that it shows everything and in some cases I mean everything
That's my line of thought. I really don't want to see undies...I really don't want to feel like I am your gynecologist...I really don't want to feel like I am your proctologist...

I understand slip-ups. Sh*t happens...and, then, I buy a belt. I love wearing skirts, dresses, heels, shirts that show a bit of cleavage....but, I don't have my nipples hanging out and you can't see my a$$ cheeks. I'd say I dress "sexy"...I don't dress sl*tty. But, this isn't my first rodeo...so, I feel like I have figured out how to clothe myself in a sexy manner without stuffing $1 bills down my shirt.

Some people....ehhhh...not so much.

BUT, some people wear Pajama Jeans, and this too frightens me. (Btw, I those were $60 at Walmart....you can buy a perfectly good pair of ACTUAL jeans for that). ALSO, for the record, I don't own a single pair of sweat pants. I can't see my dressing style changing dramatically when I have a ring on my paper and a piece of paper that says I am legally bound to someone.


Are we to criticize every woman who has a rape fantasy? Every gay man that fantasies about prison? Any couples that play doctor and nurse sex games? How about erotic romantic fiction? Is this all so so terribly wrong?

I support the sl*t walks. One of their messages is that women are raped in all manner of clothes. And of course these clothes are sexual. Women are allowed to be sexual. What is not allowed is unsolicited sex or violence. If I cannot support a woman's right to wear what she likes how can I justify my own preference?

If you put your fantasies out there in the public, you are making it open to criticism. I learned that a long time ago. We kind of live in a society where we need to share EVERYTHING about ourselves. Where is the mystery? And, people put it out there in such a way that it is like, "This is me so DEAL WITH IT!" Well, okay, I'll deal with it...but, you also have to deal with the fact that you just put this out there and people will react in different ways. It's a reverse "deal with it." Deal with the fact you put it out there, and not everyone wants to know or agrees with it. I realized some of my fantasies were best left shared between my SO and reserved for the bedroom a while ago. I realized some things were controversial, and I didn't really want to be psychoanalyzed. I really wasn't looking for advice...it was just I was buying into the whole over-sharing phenomenon of this age. I thought to myself, "Does everyone need to know what turns me on in the bedroom? Do I want everyone's advice?" Nurrrrrrp. So, I lived and I learned in that moment. Oh...and, btw...I'm 24.

I'm not sure what a sl*t walk is...but, I am almost 99% sure I can find other ways to show that I do not agree with the fact that women who dress provocatively are "asking" to be raped. No one asks to be raped. Also...just a hypothesis...I am not sure people that doing the raping are actually thinking, "OH! There is a girl dressed rather proactively...I am going to rape her. She is, in fact, 'asking for it.'" I have always understood rape to be less about sex and more about power...you know, the whole getting off on the fact that you are forcing yourself upon someone who is not asking for it...that whole "rape" thing. It sounds a little like people who want to dress sl*tty without feeling bad, and they can't make it to Halloween...so, they need to dress sl*tty for a cause. People have done much dumber things...like putting bumper stickers to "save the planet" on their SUV...not only did they utilize resources to make the bumper sticker, but they also should have thought about riding a bike if they were so concerned. Or, the "coexist" people...because, NO ONE has ever thought about us all getting along...oh, wait...there have been a bunch of people...and, they either end up shot or nailed to a cross. Clearly, not everyone is on the same page...and, a bumper sticker isn't going to help. Dressing like a sl*t to parade around for some vague rape cause isn't very helpful. I'd say volunteer at a crisis center...quite a bit more helpful...but, ya gotta get your hands dirty, it's not pretty, and it doesn't involve makeup or clothing.

[whowhatwhen]

Part of the point of sl*twalk was that it didn't matter what a woman was wearing and to raise awarness about how victim blaming harms women.
In fact, there is a picture floating around somewhere of a girl in ordinary clothes holding a sign that says something like "This is how I was dressed when I was raped. Tell me that I deserved it. I dare you.".

I also like that one picture of the foul batchelorette meme:
Leggings as pants?
B*tch, be glad I'm wearing anything at all!

:)

[Badtranny]

When me and my partner go out both dressed as 'girls', we go out dressed quite sl*tty, I don't see anything wrong with it? they are just clothes/makeup and not really harming anyone. Plenty of women, not CD's dress like it, what's the actual problem? Isn't it all about free will? gawd help us if we had to fight for the right to wear a short skirt and 6" heels... I'd have to put mine back in the closet :cry:

Excellent Tamara and I'd even say brave to chime in with that point of view. I do think that this may highlight a distinction that has been lost. The OP was directly referring to another thread where a CD specifically mentions that they loved dressing ****ty. I think we can all agree that "****ty" and just "hot" are two different things. When I go out to a club I'm wearing something tight with heels that are definitely too tall for shopping. If you said I looked hot I would appreciate the compliment, but if you said I looked ****ty, I would be horribly offended. I would NEVER wear something that I personally thought looked ****ty. However in hindsight, I fear I may have indeed done such a thing in my clumsy attempts to look merely "hot".

This has somehow turned into a debate about the eye of the beholder when there are CD's who in fact make the effort to look ****ty, or what they would perceive to be ****ty. SilentPartner is only asking why.

[Shananigans]

I also like that one picture of the foul batchelorette meme:
Leggings as pants?
B*tch, be glad I'm wearing anything at all!

:)

lol I was never sure about that fad. The "thing" here to wear to class on test days was an outfit that consisted of a sweatshirt, leggings, and sneakers. It wasn't the best look ever. There was a lot of toe on that camel. I never understood the Ugg thing either...the whole Ugg boots and leggings. I'm like, "This is f*cking Alabama...why the Hell are you wearing those shoes? Out of ALL the shoes in the world...you chose those." And, why just the leggings? Did we forget the rest of the outfit? Leggings aren't even cute on their own. But, idk, that's just my opinion...I like skinny jeans...they don't give me camel toe.

Also, I really like the example of the girl wearing ordinary clothes and saying that her ordinary outfit was what she wore when she got raped. However, are the people that are dressing sl*tty in the parade proving a point by saying, "Look! I am dressed like a sl*t and I am not getting raped currently! Therefore, I am somehow saying that what women wear has nothing to do with getting raped!"

I ask because I honestly don't get the logic behind it. I get the logic behind the girl saying, "Look...I was wearing normal clothes and I still got raped." But, I don't really get the "sl*t walk" of dressing sl*tty and "raising victim-blame" awareness.

There's probably no hope with me...I don't understand why people do a lot of things.

[whowhatwhen]

Maybe it was shock value to get more attention to the message, I'm working on dinner so I can't look it up now but IIRC part of it was that a woman should be able to wear whatever she wants or as provocatively as she wants without being in fear of being assaulted.

I don't see most women dressing anything but casually though, as another example it's totally legal here for a woman to go topless.
But, you don't see it and IIRC only a few did past the first bit after it was made legal.

[ReineD]

I'm not sure what a sl*t walk is...

Quite a few people have mentioned it, here's an explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****Walk (the system won't even allow the word in the URL which renders it ineffective, but just go to wikipedia.com and type in "sl*twalk". Replace the * with a u.

Men and women need to signal their availability to each other somehow and in our society this has been accomplished through the clothes we wear. But then we get into the myriad different ways this is accomplished based on people's socioeconomic backgrounds and cultural origins.

Although I agree that a woman (or a man) should not be judged based on the clothes they choose to wear and certainly a woman should not be raped or blamed for the rape if she dresses in a way that a man finds sexually appealing, there are still extremes that should be avoided based on current cultural norms. I don't know if the women in the second sl*twalk pic in the link above are suggesting that women should dress like this without being judged on a day-to-day basis, but I disagree if this is what they're saying, at least in our current society. If, on the other hand, every single woman dressed like this all the time, if being scantily clad in lacy body suits, black bras, and stilettos were the norm, I dare say that no one would give any woman dressed like this a second look.

Proof of this I think are nudist colonies. I don't know how many of you have experienced this, but when I was a young woman there was a nudist beach (unofficially, but everyone turned a blind eye to it), in a difficult place to access, down a ravine wall. People went there and everyone took off their clothes. There were all kinds of bodies: young, old, skinny, fat, and there was no lewdness, no oggling, really after even a short while seeing everyone naked just felt normal.

... although I rather think that CDers would not be happy there. :p

[busker]

I agree with Julia...dressing this way is the "fetishistic" part of crossdressing that many of us (myself included) began crossdressing. Some of us, perhaps most of us, "grow up"...that is, progress towards a more appropriate expression of 'womanhood', and need to experiment, as GG teenagers do, with different looks/styles until we find out what works for us.



Yes, Badtranny, this IS the way many of us start!



Vickie: again, I see that this way of dressing provocatively is a reflection of the images men are fed of 'sexy' women, which we are attempting to emulate. It takes time, practice, and helpful friends (both GGs and other CDs) to get to the point of knowing how to dress for the occasion.

I am bi, and have dressed to please my guy while we were going out, but never too "s**tty". And yes, I've attracted many other guys' eyes, even then. It felt nice...validating all my work and effort.

I have also gone out with my bi group to a lesbian bar, dressed in jeans, sandals, leotard top, tied up blue workshirt, light makeup, hair in a ponytail, and been accepted as one of the 'women' there. Dressing for the occasion, again!

Amber, when we are dressing, shouldn't we looking in the mirror with "women's eyes" rather than men's eyes and seeing "men's magazine pictures"? and, are you certain that attracting other men's eyes is just validating your abilities, or have they just picked up on you as NOT a heterosexual guy because of the way you dress? Bi and gay guys, I would think, also look for signals when out, and a CD is certainly sending a signal, and not just about the ability to dress femme. I'm certain it is not only women who can "clock" a CD in public.

[Babeba]

I mentioned slu t walks back on page 1 (post 23) and it got pretty ignored there. I support them, because they are about bringing awareness to the fact that DRESSING like a **** (which is going to pretty much be a value judgement of someone else) and BEING a slu t (or thinking someone is a ****) are two completely, COMPLETELY different things. Also, that what I perceive to be just fine might make someone else think ****. That is definitely NOT good. Tamara, if I saw you and your partner out in short skirts and high heels together, I wouldn't think '****' unless you were having a contest together to see how many people you could take into the stalls and shag. Someone else might think you were advertising your availability, which is a problem (theirs) if they act on it and you don't want them to. The problem I have isn't with clothes but with mindset!

I have never said that people can't dress as they wish or that I own no provocative clothing. I have been down on cross dressing men who, by setting out to be/emulate slu ts, and by so doing reinforce the clothes= slu ts wearing them, or even the very idea of s luts themselves. It doesn't have pretty connotations, and is full of a LOT of ideas that basically boil down to 'she was asking for it. She's a slu t.' It is bull, and if a person is dressing up to be **** ty- to encourage others to think they are open to and asking for sex with anyone, they won't say no, ever, I see that as different to a person who knows they are sexy and confident and like looking powerful. There is a big difference with sleeping with just anybody who will have you because they will sleep with you and that is the only qualification and finding someone desirable and engaging with them. The second can be very healthy and affirming whereas the first is a big warning sign for some major problems.

I have watched a girl i knew go from being bullied to being **** shamed to being victim blamed when her bully assaulted her... She went from being a sweet but sensitive kid who wore overalls and ended up on the streets, on drugs, and a teen mother (which pulled her sort of out of the negative cycle-at least the drugs.) She was very much affected by words like being called sl ut and if I could banish the word, the concept and anything negative about sexuality I would.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnGPAZcsqE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Shananigans]

I like your points, Babeba. But, playing Devil's Advocate...

I know dressing "sl*tty" does not make you necessarily a loose person. And, some people's idea of what is sl*tty clothing might be quite different from other people's point of view. However, in the example that Sandra gave where she literally saw a$$ because a skirt was so short, do you think this person had some intentions behind their outfit? They know blatantly putting it out there may make other people that you are blatantly putting it out there in other ways. So, I feel this is where such clothing associations are sometimes made. What is the motivating factor for someone who has a$$ and nipples hanging out of their outfit? What associations might we make?

I do hate how "sl*t" gets thrown around...especially, in high school. Girls would be branded "sl*t" and it had nothing to do with what they were wearing, or their sexual encounters. People were just mean.

But, is there a connection between what is considered "sl*tty" in my culture and people that choose to dress in ways that other people associate with being sexually desperate? If I were to go out in a skirt so short that you could see labia, knowing that people might think I am giving it freely in other ways...but, I go out in it anyway...why am I doing that? Do I want the association attributed to me? Perhaps, I am not actually going to f*ck the baseball team, but why would I go out in that when I KNOW what people will think?

I have never really been called a **** for dressing how I do. I'm a fan of fishnets and cleavage...but, I keep the sisters under wrap. It's never been a problem. But, then, someone shows up to the party in a see-through top, and I'm wondering about the motivation behind that outfit...quite honestly.

It's terrible when you have the crap that happened in high school...a girl wears what everyone else is wearing and isn't really doing anything...but, because some other girl doesn't like her, she gets called a sl*t.

To be fair, an actual hooker in a documentary that Ryan and I watched one day was wearing a basketball jersey. I don't think she was actually wearing anything else underneath the jersey, but it wasn't an outfit I had in mind for her line of work. I am surprised every day, it seems.

[Lorileah]

lol I was never sure about that fad. The "thing" here to wear to class on test days was an outfit that consisted of a sweatshirt, leggings, and sneakers. It wasn't the best look ever. There was a lot of toe on that camel. Thus the reason I don't wear them...I can't EVEN imagine what that would look like.
I never understood the Ugg thing either...the whole Ugg boots and leggings. I'm like, "This is f*cking Alabama...why the Hell are you wearing those shoes? Out of ALL the shoes in the world...you chose those." Because all the Crocs were taken? :)

Thus proving the point that one woman's passion is another's poison. Many times "fashion" trumps common sense

[Leslie Langford]

... I have always understood rape to be less about sex and more about power...you know, the whole getting off on the fact that you are forcing yourself upon someone who is not asking for it...that whole "rape" thing...

I have always been confounded by this line of reasoning, which I have heard before...

Yes, every act of rape is a physical assault upon another person. But every physical assault upon another person - although it always violates their personal space - doesn't necessarily also violate their genitals. The word "assault" as used within this context is a general term, but what distinguishes one type of assault from another is what part of the body the blows (or penetration?) are targeting.

To trivialize the act of rape by lumping it in with other types of assault and simply dismissing it as just one more way of having one human being exercise power or domination over another one totally misses the point.

A misogynistic man may try to "put a woman in her place" by hitting her with an object, pummeling her with his fists, or kicking her when she is down etc., but when he chooses rape to inflict the same form of dominance, he adds a whole new dimension to that act - namely the element of humiliation, shame, and genital violation over and above the basic act of domination and physically hurting her.

It is no coincidence that rape is routinely used for that very reason by rebels and insurgents in various parts of Africa to terrorize their victims and cow them into submission - especially amongst cultures and religions there which put an especially high value on the chastity and purity of their womenfolk.

THAT is the fundamental difference between the two, and THAT is why women can put themselves in an especially vulnerable position by stirring up feelings of sexual domination within an individual already predisposed to inflict a more garden-variety type of assault upon them.

[Babeba]

Shananigans,

If a person is distinctly cultivating **** in public, it is for attention. If they do it because of no self esteem, they honestly think that is what their worth is, I think they need support, care and to find a way to truly be themselves. If it is because they are a sex worker and they are advertising, if it's strictly business I hope they are successful in life. If they are a sex worker because of no self esteem, see case #1!

[JulieK1980]

I find this whole thread odd. I always imagined that the mentality of "she was asking for it" based on how she dresses, went out with the 20th century. To play devils advocate here, I find it odd that "dressing sl*tty" is somehow offensive to women. Isn't it more offensive to see things in this thread that mimic the attitude that it's partially the victims fault in a rape simply because the woman dressed "sl*tty"? (fun fact: It is NEVER the victim's fault. EVER.)

IMO a person dresses the way they choose for whatever reason they choose, and as long as no laws are broken, then good for them! Don't take offense to their poor sense of style, just don't look! There are millions of real problems in the world without someone trying to shove their own sense of morality down people's throats. I don't like to see people of any gender walking around walmart in spandex, but I don't complain, I simply avert my gaze elsewhere.

The people (crossdresser or otherwise) that choose to dress "sl*tty" have to live with their choice. Not you.

[BRANDYJ]

The slu***y look is not for me. That goes for a GG looking sl***y as well as my having no desire to dress sl***y. Sexy is not the same thing. As for other CD's doing it in private...whatever floats your boat. To me, being a lady is sexy.

[Shananigans]

I have always been confounded by this line of reasoning, which I have heard before...

Yes, every act of rape is a physical assault upon another person. But every physical assault upon another person - although it always violates their personal space - doesn't necessarily also violate their genitals. The word "assault" as used within this context is a general term, but what distinguishes one type of assault from another is what part of the body the blows (or penetration?) are targeting.

To trivialize the act of rape by lumping it in with other types of assault and simply dismissing it as just one more way of having one human being exercise power or domination over another one totally misses the point.

A misogynistic man may try to "put a woman in her place" by hitting her with an object, pummeling her with his fists, or kicking her when she is down etc., but when he chooses rape to inflict the same form of dominance, he adds a whole new dimension to that act - namely the element of humiliation, shame, and genital violation over and above the basic act of domination and physically hurting her.

It is no coincidence that rape is routinely used for that very reason by rebels and insurgents in various parts of Africa to terrorize their victims and cow them into submission - especially amongst cultures and religions there which put an especially high value on the chastity and purity of their womenfolk.

THAT is the fundamental difference between the two, and THAT is why women can put themselves in an especially vulnerable position by stirring up feelings of sexual domination within an individual already predisposed to inflict a more garden-variety type of assault upon them.

It sounds like you just described that line of reasoning and why it works pretty darned well. This is kind of from an academic/psychological level and less of a political level...but, from what I have read the psychology behind rape (though the assault is sexual in nature) is that it is mainly rooted in overpowering and forcing yourself on someone else. What you describe in Africa appears to be another way for men to overpower and treat women as second-class citizens (though, perhaps, it a very sexually-rooted way). There could be newer theories that are in the works. Honestly, I have gotten less away from the academic setting in psych and more towards the clinical setting (crisis clinics, free clinics, HIV-testing clinics)...so, I could probably use more brushing up in the subject. However, this psychology behind rape has always made pretty good sense to me.

I feel women (especially, in my age group) are pretty acutely aware of rape and rape situations. My SO wanted to know why I get so wigged out about being downtown with my girlfriends at night. (I have various alarms, wasp spray, monkey balls, a gun, a debit card shaved off at the end to be sharp lol). I had a confrontation with a younger guy that kept following us (he was asking for money). It was 1am...he was following me and one of my girlfriends, saying how pretty we looked. As soon as he kept following us, I basically told him to back off. He then asked for money. And, I continued to get upset with him for not backing off. (We were pretty close to the next bar). We were wearing cute outfits...heels, skirts, pretty jewelry)... The guy finally backed off of us and it ended up in him cussing me as he walked away. My SO was saying how confusing it can be for a guy sometimes. And, I laid it out that if you are a guy, you should NOT approach women who are alone at night. I have basically been trained you are going to try to pull something. (You probably aren't...but, guys are always guilty until proven innocent in those situations). My friends' dad's basically raised them the same way. I am acutely aware of my surroundings, you, and everything you are doing. It doesn't matter how I am dressed...I am aware of you.

This ended up to be a very good defense mechanism for me. A few years ago (prior to the gun and defense weapons), I was leaving a lab pretty late at night. I had on my white coat, some khakis...pretty unremarkable outfit. A guy on the street kept hollering at me, and I ignored him. I let my guard down for a few seconds. In these few seconds, I turned into a parking garage. The parking garage was two floors. You could get to the second floor by elevator, or by stairs. I took the elevator. I did not realize that this guy had followed me and that he had went up the stairs. As I was walking to my car, he grabbed my shoulder and said, "Hey, I was talking to you!" Within an instant, I turned, started screaming, started hitting him as hard as I possibly could, and started kicking him as hard as I possibly could. (I was sore the next day from hitting him so hard). The guy was caught off guard because I reacted so fast and in such a manner that he was stumbling backwards and shielding himself. In this time, the security guard had made it up the stairs. As soon as he saw her, he took off. As soon as he took off, I took off sprinting to my car.

My friends like to joke that he was actually going to say, "Hey! I was talking to you...what's the time?" And, then, I attacked him. Whatever...don't touch me, dude.

I really do agree that whatever you wear, you need to be on guard. I feel like girls my age are taught that pretty well. That's why any guy that is approaches my friends and I when we are walking alone at night is watched like a hawk. They were basically taught the same thing that I was. The most assertive guy I have met was when I was wearing a lab coat! I have no idea what he was up to...but, I reacted very negatively to the shoulder grab. (My dad always said that he wasn't sure why a guy would mess with me anyway, because I am pretty darned tall and in pretty good shape). So, it never matters...tall, ignoring you, lab coat...people are d*cks. WHATEVER you wear, you have to be on guard. And, most of the girls that I know are pretty acutely aware of their surroundings. But, I have also heard that rape happens mainly by people that you actually know...and, not random guys out and about. My guard would definitely be pretty non-existent with my guy friends. My best friend was actually raped by a guy that she knew very well that lived in her apartment building. She was wearing her pajamas. She never even went to the clinic.

So, I really feel like the sl*tty clothes have little psychologically to do with rape. I think guys that rape are going to do it anyway. I think the main thing that a woman should do is be aware of her surroundings and be ready to tangle if it comes down to it. You can dress with you butt hanging out, but I'm not sure if statistically that makes you any more or less likely to be raped. I am going to guess that it doesn't. People may talk sh*t about you....yeah... There may be a long debate about your fashion choices (see this thread)... And, you are probably going to get a few people saying that you are acting like a stupid ho and want to kick you out of their gender. There are quite a few girls that I know that makes me embarrassed to be a woman...so, it's not a new feeling. But, this isn't Survivor...and, I can't vote them off of my island.

So, in sum...sl*tty clothes with your nipples and butt hanging out make you look kind of like a sl*t... Girls with the see-through tops at parties and are acting like idiots are generally the types of girls that I want to vote off my Island. I'm not sure if they make women as a whole look bad...but, they usually fall into some sub-group that they make look bad. (I hate the Sorority Girl stereotype, because I am in a sorority). BUT, I am not entirely sure if your OUTFIT actually influences rape. I have always been taught that the best defense against rape isn't changing how you wear...but, by being aware of your surroundings/looking out for yourself.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Well I tried to reply to this thread last night and I just kept getting system error so I gave up and went to bed!
Yo answer a few of the questions directly asked of me:

Scarlet - no, I've no beef with people dressing and doing whatever they will in privacy - everyone I guess has fantasies, even me! (actually Clint Eastwood features quite heavily there but that's a different story! lol)
- its only when one goes out that I personally think some kind of moral code of behaviour and dress is sensible.

I dont believe that people should be attacked because of the way they dress, but I dont think its very sensible to go out attracting the wrong sort of attention because this isnt an ideal world.
In an ideal world I should be able to leave my front door unlocked and go out for the day without the fear of being burgled and all my possessions being stolen but try running that one past the insurance company when you try to make a claim - they will just say you didnt take all reasonable precauctions to safeguard your property - and to an extent, I think the same applies with the way one acts and dresses.
Yes there are nutters out there who will rape and attack no matter what you're wearing, even a nun's habit I guess - but you cant safeguard against every eventuality otherwise you'd never leave your house.

To justify CD'ers wearing s****y clothes by saying that GG's wear them so it must be ok is just like saying well some people are racists and bigots so it must be ok. Just because someone else or a group of people do something, doesnt make it right.

To get back to the original reason for starting this topic - my question was based on a comment made in another thread about a CD'er dressing up s****y and going out teasing truckers - so I raised the question really to find out if other CD'ers did this, if threy thought it was ok and do they not think it was in some way disrespecting females.

Shan makes a very good point about what you wear probably not being the cause of rape - and quite probably in a random act of rape by a person unknown to you, this is the case. By going out flaunting it in front off truckers is virtually advertising you are available and "up for it" IMO and then when the trucker gets sexually excited, and finds out that the person "pr*ck teasing" him is actually a guy and not "up for it" he is like as not gonna get pretty damn angry. So maybe the answer to my question is not that this particular type off CD'er is disrespecting women, but more that he/she is disrespecting men!

I think it was Nicola who asked me what I now though - and the answer to that is, no ,I dont believe that generally speaking CD'ers sre purposely being disrespectful to GG's. I actually now think that what is happening is that they are doing no favours at all to the CD community as a whole.

I believe the general public are much more likely to buy into the idea that a CD'er is getting in touch with his feminine side if she is dressed in a nice, pretty, stylish way than if she is dressed like a streetwalker but that's just my view.

I think this thread must surely have run its course now - we seem to be going round in circles

[NicoleScott]

This has somehow turned into a debate about the eye of the beholder when there are CD's who in fact make the effort to look ****ty, or what they would perceive to be ****ty. SilentPartner is only asking why.

Good point, BT, getting back to the original question. My attempt at over-the-top glamour is seen by many (including cd's who prefer a more mainstream, fashionable, respectable look,) as sl*tty. As I said before, I'm OK with that. But that means that I can't really answer the question - only those who intend to look sl*tty can, not those who have no such intention but are seen by others (by their definition) as sl*tty. That narrows the field of those who can answer with any authority.
SilentPartner, there are a few who responded that they like to dress sl*tty, and do it on purpose. These are the people who can answer your question. The rest of us (whether CD, TS, GG) can't know, but only have an opinion.

SP, thanks for responding to a couple things I challenged you on. I still think you're open-minded and fair, and value your point of view.

[CloserthanthisGG]

People dress for different reasons. But it is like being an artist. You can paint any picture you want to in the privacy of your home. This means that you can express any idea you might have. But it isn't really about women at all (sorry about that GGs.) It is about sexual signals. The very simple answer is that the way women dress to advertise sexual availability is the same reason Cds enjoy dressing that way at home. Ask yourself how a ***** dresses as she does? Is the way she dresses a purposeful disrespect for women? Or a commonly understood advert that she is sexually available?
As to why CDs would do that in public, then it gets complicated. I presume they are either sexually available or more likely it is the feeling of being desired. Everyone wants to be desired after all, even if you aren't available.

I was totally thinking this earlier today. Sometimes, I go out by myself, all dressed up. Sometimes, I am dressed in a nice sweet way, sometimes, it's in a more provocative way. Sometimes, it's in a way to advertise what I'm looking for. Sometimes, it's just to get a reaction, even if I'm not looking for anything. I have an intense need to feel desired. It doesn't matter really by whom. Man, woman, old, young, weird, normal. It goes past "acceptance", this need. I don't want to be accepted. I NEED to be desired. Even if it's purposeless desire. Even if it's just to drive some stranger crazy so that he (or she) has to go home and think about me later.

It may sound messed up to those who don't feel that need. But I totally feel that way and totally understand why a straight man who has that need would feel the need to go out and be desired by anyone who sees him. Men don't get to do that in men's clothes.

Here's the deal. There are of course, men who can just wear a tee shirt and jeans and nothing else at all, and walk out of the house and be DESIRED incredibly by women so much that the women can't do anything but stare obviously with their jaws dropping... These are very rare.

There are women who can do the same in a flour sack and no makeup or jewelry. These are also very rare.

So to either of these types of people, they get that "desired" feeling every minute of their lives, no matter what they wear.

Now, women who need to feel desired... they have UNIVERSES of options in order to provoke this. Even if they are average looking or downright unnatractive, they can go get made-over and get attention that they need.

What does an average looking man do in normal society? Nothing.

What is an average looking man allowed to do by people in order to advertise that he is needing to be desired or needing to be considered an object of desire or just told he was flat out sexy? Nothing, really. Maybe a leather jacket, and rugged boots, but that doesn't elicit DESIRE. It's being desired that is the need.

You can call it being a tease if you want, that's kinda what it is from the one being teased vantage point. But the tease has a need to be desired. Even if it doesn't lead to sex.

Yeah, I have issues that lead me to have a need to be desired. Maybe everybody does who feels this way. Or maybe everybody does and they just don't do anything about it. And maybe that not doing anything about it leaves them unfulfilled. But I think men need to be desired as much as women do, and especially some women and some men.

That's a lot of maybes. Hahahah! But I look at everyones artwork here. The pictures of themselves they post. I consider it art. Art that comes from within you. Art that as men, you are told not to display. You all are beautiful. All of you. And I don't want to show any disrespect to Lisia, but Wow. absolutely desirable. To me, I can't think of anything in the world more desirable than a beautiful man dressed as a woman.


Quite a few people have mentioned it, here's an explanation:

Although I agree that a woman (or a man) should not be judged based on the clothes they choose to wear and certainly a woman should not be raped or blamed for the rape if she dresses in a way that a man finds sexually appealing, there are still extremes that should be avoided based on current cultural norms. I don't know if the women in the second sl*twalk pic in the link above are suggesting that women should dress like this without being judged on a day-to-day basis, but I disagree if this is what they're saying, at least in our current society. If, on the other hand, every single woman dressed like this all the time, if being scantily clad in lacy body suits, black bras, and stilettos were the norm, I dare say that no one would give any woman dressed like this a second look.

Proof of this I think are nudist colonies. I don't know how many of you have experienced this, but when I was a young woman there was a nudist beach (unofficially, but everyone turned a blind eye to it), in a difficult place to access, down a ravine wall. People went there and everyone took off their clothes. There were all kinds of bodies: young, old, skinny, fat, and there was no lewdness, no oggling, really after even a short while seeing everyone naked just felt normal.

... although I rather think that CDers would not be happy there. :p

Wow, this is like two different topics I feel strongly on. Nudism and dressing. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I love clothing. I also love Nudism.

The thing about clothing is intent. If everyone wore mesh body stockings and garters everyday, there would be no intent associated with the items. If everyone walked around naked everyday, there would be no intent associated with nudity.

Clothes are beautiful and nude bodies are beautiful.

I like clothing because you can signify intent. You are judged by your clothes, no matter what you do. Everything you wear says something about you. It is your choice, or it is your income that allows you to wear the things you do. Or your occupation. We become walking billboards for ourselves and our histories every day that we get dressed. I absolutely love being able to say everything I can about myself and how i am feeling in the way I am dressed.

Some people want to be a billboard for sex. So they dress as ****s. It is advertisement. But you can only become that walking billboard because of two things. The symbolism of intent behind the garments, and your intent to wear them in public.

On the other hand, I absolutely love nudism. I love it for exactly the opposite reason that I love clothing.

You can't say Anything about yourself with it. You are a blank slate. You meet strangers, and you have no idea whether they are rich or poor, or colorblind, or pretentious, or artists, or doctors, or musicians. People wear hints about what they like all the time even if they're normal clothes. You see things like musical notes hidden in lace on a shirt... or hearts. These things speak for you. When you are naked, you have to speak for yourself. You have to learn people slowly. Nudism has absolutely nothing to do with sex, and if you think it does and you go there, they will kick you right out immediately.