How do you define "Transsexual"?

[Anna Lorree]

Part of my therapy is to be challenged to think about things. Over the last few weeks, I have been asked to define being transsexual. I think I have come up with my view of this, and wanted to float it past you, as you are kind of considered experts in the field.

I define a transsexual as a person who's sex and gender do not match. So much so in fact that they NEED to change either their sex or their gender to have a sense of congruence sufficient to continue with their lives. As medical science can't alter gender yet, this leaves altering sex to achieve the needed congruence. As such, "transsexual" is almost more of a verb, in that it signifies a person making or prepared to make physical changes to achieve congruence.

Am I on the money or am I off base? What are your thoughts and opinions?

Also, are you "less" than a transsexual if you don't fully transition for any reason at all?

Anna

[ReineD]

Anna, I won't answer your larger question, but I will say there are those in this forum who believe that non-transitioners are not "true" TSs, in fact, they aren't women at all, which affronts those who feel differently.

Such discussions in the past have resulted in some pretty ugly posts and thread closings and so I'm asking the membership to just share their own views without attacking any one else's.

[Kaz]

I have stopped trying to define things and to try and 'fit' into prescribed categories that people who do not know me, less understand me, have derived from their limited experience.

I am me... I can fit every category on this site except for those.......................... I don't! :daydreaming:

[Anna Lorree]

Anna, I won't answer your larger question, but I will say there are those in this forum who believe that non-transitioners are not "true" TSs, in fact, they aren't women at all, which affronts those who feel differently.

Such discussions in the past have resulted in some pretty ugly posts and thread closings and so I'm asking the membership to just share their own views without attacking any one else's.

I'll echo this, I am looking for definitions, not flame wars. Personally I would be happy to talk to ANYBODY via private message regarding this topic. If your comments might be incendiary, please just PM me and we can talk there. We may have to agree to disagree, but adults should be mature enough to handle that, shouldn't they?

If comments (and posters) can be civil, I would welcome open debate on the question.

Thank you,

Anna

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I believe gender identity is fixed...

if we can leave out the idea of gender binary or non binary for a moment and focus on transsexual, for an mtf transsexual
that means that if a person is born as a male...genetically, physically and socially, but has a gender identity of female..this is a transsexual

This is independent of what you do about your transsexual nature.
you can be a transsexual and quietly suffer it for 80 years, and you'd be no more or less transsexual than me

[Kaz]

My comment wasn't meant as a flame war... it was meant in the spirit that the words convey... I am more than happy to do PMs... I regard myself as TS but conflicted and with greater priorities... Many here who are TS and choose a different path will see me as irrelevant at best and dangerous at worst... We are in tricky territory...

This is why I hate definitions and categories - they are at best artificial and at worst divisive... one day people will realise that we DO NOT need to punish people for who we think they are...

Sorry if this seems like a rant... it isn't, it is just my belief system - which is evolving as I grow and understand more about this amazing thing called life...

Put people in boxes and most will behave accordingly... It relates to our inner need to be tribal and belong... This is what 'leaders' and that dubious subset called politicians prey on... it helps control if you can herd.

I will not be herded, nor will I be controlled... I am me... I embrace it and accept it and boy, do I want to BE IT!

[My Lady Marsea]

If a hundred different people answer this, you'll get like a hundred different answers.
So in compliance to Reine, this is my personal answer as I see it. Transgender is actually making the transition of getting the body and the mind like in synch (trans) with each other concerning "gender". In my case, it's so totally using my female mind to accept my male body or wutever as being wrong, but it's all I have to work with. So I do wut I can outside in presentation to do so. Transsexual, again to me, is when I will have truly transitioned the "sex", in other words when my male physical body has become (trans) as female as humanly possible thru surgeries and then mind and body match. You're then totally female and should be fully accepted as such, but transsexual as opposed to natal. That doesn't mean that you ever need to tell anyone anything, but there was a different path taken to fix mother natures screw-up and it can never be thought of as natal. Doesn't like matter to me wut others, including the medical factions define, this is wut I feel. .

[Kristy_K]

Anna, I won't answer your larger question, but I will say there are those in this forum who believe that non-transitioners are not "true" TSs, in fact, they aren't women at all, which affronts those who feel differently.

I would have to agree with Reine.

Transsexual is also just a title in my opinion. It can have a lot of meanings. It depends on who you ask.

I don't live my life by a title now. I just think of myself as a woman that was born with a birth defect. And a SRS will get things in line for me.

[elizabethamy]

I believe gender identity is fixed...

if we can leave out the idea of gender binary or non binary for a moment and focus on transsexual, for an mtf transsexual
that means that if a person is born as a male...genetically, physically and socially, but has a gender identity of female..this is a transsexual

This is independent of what you do about your transsexual nature.
you can be a transsexual and quietly suffer it for 80 years, and you'd be no more or less transsexual than me

To me, this is exactly right. What we do and who/what we are are two entirely different things. The choice is not what we are, or where we are on the TG continuum, or any of that; we have some choice (some) as to what we want to do about it, how we want to live, how we're willing to live, how much private suffering is too much, etc. But I have learned much about who I am, and that learning is irreplaceable, no matter how I'm dressed.

elizabethamy

[Anna Lorree]

My comment wasn't meant as a flame war... it was meant in the spirit that the words convey... I am more than happy to do PMs... I regard myself as TS but conflicted and with greater priorities... Many here who are TS and choose a different path will see me as irrelevant at best and dangerous at worst... We are in tricky territory...

This is why I hate definitions and categories - they are at best artificial and at worst divisive... one day people will realise that we DO NOT need to punish people for who we think they are...

Sorry if this seems like a rant... it isn't, it is just my belief system - which is evolving as I grow and understand more about this amazing thing called life...

Put people in boxes and most will behave accordingly... It relates to our inner need to be tribal and belong... This is what 'leaders' and that dubious subset called politicians prey on... it helps control if you can herd.

I will not be herded, nor will I be controlled... I am me... I embrace it and accept it and boy, do I want to BE IT!

Kaz, my comment about a flame war was not directed at you, you have always been very approachable and personable to me. I started typing my reply to Reine before your post appeared. We simply had the misfortune of having been typing at the same time. I did not mean to offend you.

Anna

[ameliabee]

I believe that this -> http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/j16w3/confusion_transgender_transsexual/c28ajus is the best definition available on the internet.

[RachelOKC]

I'm personally good with Kaitlyn's description but I also agree with Kristy. There are indeed a lot of meanings to different people and it is indeed a minefield of a topic. I'm not sure why people feel such ownership over a word or a concept, but many simply do. One only needs to look at recent headlines to see examples of that in action.

Although others have sometimes applied the transsexual label to me, rightly or not, I generally don't apply it to myself even though I am transitioning. I like the word transgender, because if I've got to be labeled I'll go with a nice broad term. Keep 'em guessing. ;)

[KellyJameson]

Have you ever noticed that men have a love affair with their penis? It is the strangest thing to witness when you do not think or feel like most males. They have names for it, talk to it, pet it, compare it and either worry that it is not big enough or take pride in how big it is. The first few years of life are spent with their hands in their pants and it does not stop sometimes until they are in the grave, leaving behind black and blue marks on the nurses butts at the nursing home

It is a generalization but there is some truth to being a male with gender dysphoria and your relationship to your penis. Maybe there is indifference, ambivalence or down right hate but I wonder if anyone who transitions has ever had a loving relationship with this part of their anatomy or if it is a source (at least in relations with the opposite sex) of conflict. The capacity for pleasure is there but the relationship to this pleasure is different because you do not acknowledge the source of this pleasure in the same way.

For me it was the psychology of my sex that did not match the psychology of my identity, it is an abstract experience that the physical world exposes. My psychological relationship with people is what indicated a problem because everything was reversed. I relate to men as a woman and I relate to woman as a woman but they relate to me as a man, or at least they try to but give up in frustration or because they become uneasy but do not know why.

Sometimes all the terms create confusion because words live in the conscious mind but identity lives in the subconscious mind beyond words and is experienced with the body through the mind. It is very difficult to turn identity into thought and for me the best I can hope for is to look for clues to what the deepest part of my soul, heart and mind keeps trying to tell me.

These are purely my own opinions and I know it is dangerous to draw conclusions about GID and sexual behavior but my intuition tells me there is a relationship between the two however subtle it may be.

I worry for what could happen if a person is diagnosed with GID and transitions without fully accepting the diagnosis themselves, always wondering if they made the right choice. The doubt scares me more than the idea of surgery.

Don't know if this was what you were looking for Anna, I'm not a very practical nuts and bolts kind of person and thinking about definitions is a problem for me. The best I can offer is to try and take what I feel and bring it up to the surface and turn it into words and leave the intellectual stuff to those who are better suited. Therapists always make me crazy when they try to "think" about "feelings" instead of feeling about feelings and thinking about thinking.

[Noemi]

I believe gender identity is fixed...

if we can leave out the idea of gender binary or non binary for a moment and focus on transsexual, for an mtf transsexual
that means that if a person is born as a male...genetically, physically and socially, but has a gender identity of female..this is a transsexual

This is independent of what you do about your transsexual nature.
you can be a transsexual and quietly suffer it for 80 years, and you'd be no more or less transsexual than me

Honey you always say what I am thinking. And may do a better job of it. I am glad you are here on this forum.

We all have different temperaments and thus make different choices as far as transitioning is concerned.

A trans sexual is different than a CD'er. A Cd'er wears clothes to feel feminine and reverts to feeling masculine when the female attire is has been put away.

While a TG'd person is a feminine person that can not turn that feminine feeling off when the girl clothes come off.

One is no better then the other, we are all together here as brothers and sisters.

It is the shading of gender, one is of a different color that perhaps might be better suited with similar colors as not to contrast too much.

This is a great post. I look forward to every ones response.

♥♥♥
Noemi

[WifeofWrenchette]

It is my understanding, (and I certainly could be wrong) that a CD'er is more about the clothes and sexual feelings whereas a TG is born in the wrong body.

[Jessica_Grl]

It is my understanding, (and I certainly could be wrong) that a CD'er is more about the clothes and sexual feelings whereas a TG is born in the wrong body.

and ive been told that TG people are not going the SRS route, a TG petty much stops at HRT or FFS, TS is the whole sha-bang

i got told this because my videos on youtube i label "The Transgender Diaries" (or i have started naming them that little while ago, and i guess thats wrong because i plan on getting the whole kit and kaboodle -- i think TG is more of a umbrella term, and you know what, i like it. Besides, who cares aslong as the person in question is being themself -- i think the "T" in LGBT needs to be more united first before we start nit-picking our own selfs

and even if i am TS, i just dont like the way "The Transsexual Diaries" sound right now -- i prefer the umbrella term, and its all good

[Kathryn Martin]

I thought this might help:


Diagnostic Criteria for gender Identity Disorder



A A strong persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:

Repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex.
In boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; In girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing.
Strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex.
Intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex.
Strong preference for playmates of the other sex.


In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
B Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the following:
In boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough-and-tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games, and activities.
In girls, rejection of urinating in a sitting position, assertion that she has or will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion toward normative feminine clothing.
In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.
C. The disturbance is not concurrent with physical intersex condition.
D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

[WifeofWrenchette]

I thought this might help:


Diagnostic Criteria for gender Identity Disorder



A A strong persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:

Repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex.
In boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; In girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing.
Strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex.
Intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex.
Strong preference for playmates of the other sex.


In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
B Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the following:
In boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough-and-tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games, and activities.
In girls, rejection of urinating in a sitting position, assertion that she has or will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion toward normative feminine clothing.
In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.
C. The disturbance is not concurrent with physical intersex condition.
D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
This is very helpful. However, I hate that they use the word "disturbance" like people who have GID are "disturbed". I wish they had used another word. Just my .2 cents.

[ReineD]

It's a clinical term, Wrenchette, it's not meant to be offensive. They mean "a dissatisfaction with" or "a lack of congruence", and not the "mental disease" concept that the word "disturbed" has often been used in popular culture.

[Persephone]

I believe that this -> http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/j16w3/confusion_transgender_transsexual/c28ajus is the best definition available on the internet.

Pressing "Like" button on konkbent's post.

[WifeofWrenchette]

It's a clinical term, Wrenchette, it's not meant to be offensive. They mean "a dissatisfaction with" or "a lack of congruence", and not the "mental disease" concept that the word "disturbed" has often been used in popular culture.I wish they used "a dissatisfaction with" then. I hate clinical terms. Like when a person dies they use "expired" instead of "died". It makes it sound like the person is a gallon of milk that "expired". Thanks for letting me know it's a clinical term Reine.

[Kathryn Martin]

Because this goes much further than "dissatisfied" with disturbs by is the right expression in my view.

[Nicole Erin]

to this day I don't know what transsexual means.
All I know is what it means to live as i see fit to be happy.

Does transsexual mean you live full time as a woman? Well, Virginia Prince pretty much did that but identified as CD.

I am a "true Erin".

[Bree-asaurus]

Does transsexual mean you live full time as a woman? Well, Virginia Prince pretty much did that but identified as CD.

Not in my book... or in the DSM.

Being transexual is a condition you have since birth (Being assigned a gender at birth by society, usually associated with your physical sex, where you identify as the gender opposite)... not what you decide to do about it once you realize you are transexual.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There is no reason any person cant try to live any way they want..

"pretty much " living as a woman doesn't sound very appealing to me.

[emmicd]

in simplest terms gender is what is between the ears, how we think of ourselves and sex is what is between the legs, our physical anatomy.
when someone feels a disconnect between the mind and the physical anatomy and wants to alter it they are considered transgendered and they are catgorized on a scale between mild CD to severe gender dysphoria (TS). a transsexual is one who is in various stage with the true TS most likely treated with HRT, electrolysis and GRS. Most fully transition from male to female.

emmi

[LeaP]

"Transsexual":

Hell on earth. The literal embodiment of self-conflict. Continual nullification. Fear and loathing. Unrealized potential set against a backdrop of a series of failures, large and small. A continual train wreck of one's own morals and ethics in personal and social relationships. Apprehension of damage, physical, emotional, and psychological. Disgust.

Conversely, moments of hope. Realizations of purity. Real self-awareness and occasional glimpses of another physical self. Dreams of another daily reality, both better and not. A new appreciation of humanity. Emergence. Woman.

Pre-transition, at least. I can't speak to post.

However you want to define it, once I started along the path to realization, that's what it has felt like.

[melissaK]

"Transsexual":

Hell on earth. The literal embodiment of self-conflict. Continual nullification. Fear and loathing. Unrealized potential set against a backdrop of a series of failures, large and small. A continual train wreck of one's own morals and ethics in personal and social relationships. Apprehension of damage, physical, emotional, and psychological. Disgust.


Ouch.

Transsexual is a word, and words meanings change and evolve. I suppose when I first heard the word in connection with Christine Jorgenson's story, I thought it meant someone who had had GRS. I knew I wanted that too, but I was 13 in a small town, raised with conservative morals, and information about plain sex was hard enough to come by, and I am not sure what I thought - it was an overwhelming idea that I could be like Christine.

I have lived all the "hell on earth" descriptors Lea gave, and I didn't make progress with my own mental health until I thought of myself in the way Kaitlyn Michelle set forth - as a TS from birth, and that all I have to do is to decide what I want to do about it based upon factors unique to me - my mental health, physical health, personal values, and financial means. Tell others or not, CD or not, get GRS or not. Unlike an acute disease that "must" be immediately treated to live, gender disorder treatment decisions can or sometimes must be delayed. Of course delay can cause its own problems and complications.

I am not sure the DSM agrees. Creating nomenclature to identify a gender identity disorder or "disturbance" implies that a TS is something else. However the DSM goes silent and doesn't identify subgroups. I think the DSM fails us by not giving case examples that deal with what they intend to be within their nomenclature. I know there are committee notes and such that explain some of that, but they aren't readily available, and when read, there is an obvious level of disagreement among the committee members.

Certainly those who under go GRS are free to argue the TS term applies to only them, and CD describes those who just wear the clothes, and "Gender disturbed" describes those who do neither.

But in the end, a rose by any other name . . .

Hugs,
'lisa

[susiepaul]

It is my understanding, (and I certainly could be wrong) that a CD'er is more about the clothes and sexual feelings whereas a TG is born in the wrong body.

i believe a cross-dresser is a person who wears the clothing of the opposite sex but does not act like or want to be accepted as the opposite sex.
and a transvestite is a person who wears the clothing of the opposite sex acts the way of the opposite sex and wants to be accepted as the opposite sex.
and a transsexual is a person who's gender is the opposite to the sex of their body weather they go through transition or not.

i believe i am a transsexual but doubt i will ever go through transition i only wear female clothes but seldom try to pass as my gender if i new what i know now i would have tried to go for srs but as i am now 58 i doubt i would look good enough if i tried it now.

regards paulie

[Julia_in_Pa]

Anna,

Transsexualisim is a result of extreme discomfort with your birth sex.
IMO one is considered TS after one received a diagnosis of GID from a qualified professional.
One can be transsexual without SRS because they have already been diagnosed as transsexual or having GID by a qualified health professional prior to any surgery.
If one feels it necessary to not transition due to perceived responsibilities the diagnosis of GID and transsexualisim remain.
Those that have transitioned either with or without surgery did so because they had no other choice.

If someone is of the belief that they are gender fluid then they are not transsexual.
If someone labels themselves a cross dresser they are not transsexual.
If someone is omnisexul or pansexual they are not transsexual.
All of these groups are under the transgender label and have nothing to do with transsexuality.
That was not a political statement but a statement of fact.

Virginia Prince is an idiot who took his fantasy too far.
As a result he caused alot of grief for the transsexual community.

As the hashing of semantics continue the clock ticks and those that constantly question themselves lose another day.


Julia

[Maddie22]

IMO one is considered TS after one received a diagnosis of GID from a qualified professional.
One can be transsexual without SRS because they have already been diagnosed as transsexual or having GID by a qualified health professional prior to any surgery.
Julia

By this definition, a cancer patient would not have cancer until they are diagnosed with it, even if the patient has had cancer for years but have gone undiagnosed.



If someone labels themselves a cross dresser they are not transsexual.
If someone is omnisexul or pansexual they are not transsexual.
All of these groups are under the transgender label and have nothing to do with transsexuality.
That was not a political statement but a statement of fact.
Julia

Pansexuals are people who are open to being with sexually or falling in love with any person of any gender type. It has nothing to do with their own gender, but rather their sexual orientation.

When answering what a transsexual is, you can ask yourself if you believe it is a noun or an adjective. If it is a noun, then I believe the definition would be someone who is considering transitioning, in the process of transitioning or possibly has already transitioned, into the opposite physical sex that they were born into. If you continue with the thought of a transsexual being a noun, you could argue that a person who has already transitioned is now the opposite physical sex, and because of this they should just be considered a male or female. Likewise if they are not in the process of transitioning, they are not transsexual because trans is a prefix meaning to crossover or change, and thus a person is not making any current changes.

On the flip side, if you consider the term transsexual to be an adjective, then it wouldn't matter what the physical state of being is, it would matter how they feel inside. A person could consider themselves transsexual, but may not have the means or present options to start any kind of transitioning. They could be living full time as the physical gender they were born into, and be suffering on the inside because in fact their mind and soul are not congruent to their physical body. This allows for anyone to potentially be a transsexual.

Personally, I lean more towards using it as an adjective. I also feel this opens up individuals to not be totally define as a transsexual, but rather it's only a part of who they are. There are so many other parts of of what makes them a human being besides being transsexual.

[Kaz]

Gosh I so love this thread!!!! :) I am thinking about writing a paper about quasitranscrossdressers, or maybe semipansexuals, or maybe pandressingtranssexuals, etc...

Little boxes, little boxes and they're made out of ticky tacky?

[LeaP]

You (Maddie) are making the semantics a larger issue than it actually is. The condition is one wherein one's birth sex doesn't match their inner sense of their gender. All of the usages are legitimate for certain purposes and from certain points of view. They are neither mutually-exclusive nor exhaustive.

[Rianna Humble]

I believe gender identity is fixed...

if we can leave out the idea of gender binary or non binary for a moment and focus on transsexual, for an mtf transsexual
that means that if a person is born as a male...genetically, physically and socially, but has a gender identity of female..this is a transsexual

This is independent of what you do about your transsexual nature.
you can be a transsexual and quietly suffer it for 80 years, and you'd be no more or less transsexual than me

All I can say is :yt::iagree:, Kaitlyn :yrtw:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Gosh I so love this thread!!!! :) I am thinking about writing a paper about quasitranscrossdressers, or maybe semipansexuals, or maybe pandressingtranssexuals, etc...

Little boxes, little boxes and they're made out of ticky tacky?

Basically everybody but the transsexuals...

[Bree-asaurus]

Gosh I so love this thread!!!! :) I am thinking about writing a paper about quasitranscrossdressers, or maybe semipansexuals, or maybe pandressingtranssexuals, etc...

Little boxes, little boxes and they're made out of ticky tacky?


Basically everybody but the transsexuals...

Ticky tacky? This b**** is made of brick and mortar!

[LeaP]

Ticky tacky? This b**** is made of brick and mortar!

What was that expression? Hmmm. Oh, yeah ...

"Built like a brick shi..."

Never mind. :devil:

[Julia_in_Pa]

By this definition, a cancer patient would not have cancer until they are diagnosed with it, even if the patient has had cancer for years but have gone undiagnosed.

Pansexuals are people who are open to being with sexually or falling in love with any person of any gender type. It has nothing to do with their own gender, but rather their sexual orientation.

When answering what a transsexual is, you can ask yourself if you believe it is a noun or an adjective. If it is a noun, then I believe the definition would be someone who is considering transitioning, in the process of transitioning or possibly has already transitioned, into the opposite physical sex that they were born into. If you continue with the thought of a transsexual being a noun, you could argue that a person who has already transitioned is now the opposite physical sex, and because of this they should just be considered a male or female. Likewise if they are not in the process of transitioning, they are not transsexual because trans is a prefix meaning to crossover or change, and thus a person is not making any current changes.

On the flip side, if you consider the term transsexual to be an adjective, then it wouldn't matter what the physical state of being is, it would matter how they feel inside. A person could consider themselves transsexual, but may not have the means or present options to start any kind of transitioning. They could be living full time as the physical gender they were born into, and be suffering on the inside because in fact their mind and soul are not congruent to their physical body. This allows for anyone to potentially be a transsexual.

Personally, I lean more towards using it as an adjective. I also feel this opens up individuals to not be totally define as a transsexual, but rather it's only a part of who they are. There are so many other parts of of what makes them a human being besides being transsexual.


I already knew something was incorrect prior to being medical diagnosed as intersexed.
I never said you had to be first diagnosed to be transsexual in order to be transsexual.
You can certainly live as a intersexed or transsexual person without ever transitioning.
I lived for 39 years as a non transitioned intersexed individual.
Transsexuals can also live without transitioning but without a medical diagnosis many remain confused and delay life enriching therapy and medication that they would or could otherwise miss.
A Transsexual is something you are transitioning is something you do.

I'm not saying particularly you Maddie but those that argue the merits and validity of the DSM or official and accepted medical definitions and diagnosis criteria are usually those that are neither intersexed or transsexual.


Julia

[Bree-asaurus]

What was that expression? Hmmm. Oh, yeah ...

"Built like a brick shi..."

Never mind. :devil:

I almost got offended until I googled it :P

[Kaz]

I'd just like to say at this stage that I love all of us, and think that you are all amazing people. I just struggle with all these crazy categories... I know we need them at times, but they become so destructive over time... I am not sure what I am... I don't care... I am Kaz.

[Bree-asaurus]

I'd just like to say at this stage that I love all of us, and think that you are all amazing people. I just struggle with all these crazy categories... I know we need them at times, but they become so destructive over time... I am not sure what I am... I don't care... I am Kaz.

I think the basic labels we have are fine... and I think the one that's really important is 'transsexual' because that diagnosis is required for transsexuals to be able to get the medical and legal support they need.

If I was a cross dresser or transgendered, I wouldn't care WHERE I fit in the spectrum... I wouldn't need to be a subset of cross dresser or transgender... who cares? I would just be myself and screw the labels.

It's just when some people get their panties in a bunch and start feeling like one group is saying their better than another or whatever... and it's usually someone with their own insecurities that start this kind of bickering. I don't know how many times I've seen a thread simply discussing the differences between two groups when someone gets a bunch of sand in their vagina and begins playing the victim and acting like their being told they are somehow less than someone else because they are different.

I wish more people would just chill the **** out and realize that different DOES NOT EQUAL better or worse. We should be happy about our differences and discuss them freely... not use them to belittle others or to play the victim card.

[Kaz]

Bree... you ROCK! xxx

[Marleena]

I think the basic labels we have are fine... and I think the one that's really important is 'transsexual' because that diagnosis is required for transsexuals to be able to get the medical and legal support they need.

If I was a cross dresser or transgendered, I wouldn't care WHERE I fit in the spectrum... I wouldn't need to be a subset of cross dresser or transgender... who cares? I would just be myself and screw the labels.

It's just when some people get their panties in a bunch and start feeling like one group is saying their better than another or whatever... and it's usually someone with their own insecurities that start this kind of bickering. I don't know how many times I've seen a thread simply discussing the differences between two groups when someone gets a bunch of sand in their vagina and begins playing the victim and acting like their being told they are somehow less than someone else because they are different.

I wish more people would just chill the **** out and realize that different DOES NOT EQUAL better or worse. We should be happy about our differences and discuss them freely... not use them to belittle others or to play the victim card.

Can we get this as a stickie? :) Nicely said.

[Anna Lorree]

I think the basic labels we have are fine... and I think the one that's really important is 'transsexual' because that diagnosis is required for transsexuals to be able to get the medical and legal support they need.

If I was a cross dresser or transgendered, I wouldn't care WHERE I fit in the spectrum... I wouldn't need to be a subset of cross dresser or transgender... who cares? I would just be myself and screw the labels.

It's just when some people get their panties in a bunch and start feeling like one group is saying their better than another or whatever... and it's usually someone with their own insecurities that start this kind of bickering. I don't know how many times I've seen a thread simply discussing the differences between two groups when someone gets a bunch of sand in their vagina and begins playing the victim and acting like their being told they are somehow less than someone else because they are different.

I wish more people would just chill the **** out and realize that different DOES NOT EQUAL better or worse. We should be happy about our differences and discuss them freely... not use them to belittle others or to play the victim card.

Hehehe, you're either bored to death, or you're on some awesome pain meds, Bree! BTW, how are you doing with your recovery?

Anna

[Lesley_Roberta]

My only problem with transexual is I was told I was transgender and they used the same definition used by transexual.

So is it like flammable and inflammable where the words are differently spelled and mean the same damned thing?

Every day it is the same issue with me here, do I post in the transexual sub forum or not?

I have NO problem with the crossdressers of our mob here, some great people too. But I am not a crosssdresser which is why I can go the girlie clothes route or not all because it isn't about the clothes with me, I don't get to turn Lesley on and off like a light switch. I feel the same way naked as I do clothed, and I feel the same way in Leslie's clothes as I would in anything made for a woman. The thing is, I'd feel a little better in woman's clothing for the same reason I suspect men feel better in men's clothing.

I just happen to be stuck in a man's body and uncomfortable with the body more than the clothes on it.

And my conundrum is I am a married person with a wife that means more to me than my life. She's always going to be ahead of my needs to be in a skirt.
But like as with any couple that truly gives a shit about their spouse's feelings, it's about BOTH worrying about the other person's happiness more than their own. The magic happens when two people are so devoted to the other, that I would elect to not wear the clothes for her, and she would elect to have me wear them for me.

This is of course also complicated by the fact that in the early morning, she's with Leslie, he's all man, and it is just convenient coincidence that he's just there for the purpose of giving his wife an intimate moment, and you don't need much of a wardrobe for having sex. Especially if you are like my family, clothing optional, and thus Leslie sleeps naked, wakes naked, has sex naked, never needs to put anything on, and by mid morning he's gone and I am in the bath and getting ready for my day.

If you asked him, he'd likely tell you only Lesley (me) is transgender. He is to his own way of thinking, just an ordinary heterosexual male.

[Bree-asaurus]

Hehehe, you're either bored to death, or you're on some awesome pain meds, Bree! BTW, how are you doing with your recovery?

Anna

Bored... lol...

Don't really even need Tylenol anymore (as long as I'm not standing for too long). Going to attempt a simple night out for dinner tomorrow... we'll see how that goes :)


My only problem with transexual is I was told I was transgender and they used the same definition used by transexual.

So is it like flammable and inflammable where the words are differently spelled and mean the same damned thing?

Every day it is the same issue with me here, do I post in the transexual sub forum or not?

I have NO problem with the crossdressers of our mob here, some great people too. But I am not a crosssdresser which is why I can go the girlie clothes route or not all because it isn't about the clothes with me, I don't get to turn Lesley on and off like a light switch. I feel the same way naked as I do clothed, and I feel the same way in Leslie's clothes as I would in anything made for a woman. The thing is, I'd feel a little better in woman's clothing for the same reason I suspect men feel better in men's clothing.

I just happen to be stuck in a man's body and uncomfortable with the body more than the clothes on it.

And my conundrum is I am a married person with a wife that means more to me than my life. She's always going to be ahead of my needs to be in a skirt.
But like as with any couple that truly gives a shit about their spouse's feelings, it's about BOTH worrying about the other person's happiness more than their own. The magic happens when two people are so devoted to the other, that I would elect to not wear the clothes for her, and she would elect to have me wear them for me.

This is of course also complicated by the fact that in the early morning, she's with Leslie, he's all man, and it is just convenient coincidence that he's just there for the purpose of giving his wife an intimate moment, and you don't need much of a wardrobe for having sex. Especially if you are like my family, clothing optional, and thus Leslie sleeps naked, wakes naked, has sex naked, never needs to put anything on, and by mid morning he's gone and I am in the bath and getting ready for my day.

If you asked him, he'd likely tell you only Lesley (me) is transgender. He is to his own way of thinking, just an ordinary heterosexual male.

As for what forum to post in, go where you feel comfortable. Do you relate to the people in the transexual forum more than in the cross dresser forum? That's how I made the with back when I was still questioning.

As for your relationship with your wife... this is something you have to figure out for yourself. If you're transsexual, maybe you'll be able to manage and be a man for your wife. Or maybe a few years down the road, you won't be able to handle it anymore. Do what you need to do right now to be comfortable in life. Just because you decide to stay a man for now doesn't mean you are devoting your entire life to that decision. Things change. Take your time, be honest with yourself and more importantly, be honest with your wife. Pretending to be someone your not, with the suffering and the lies, isn't what being in a relationship is about. She deserves to know who you are. Talk about this with her and see what you all can do to support each other.

[Anna Lorree]

As for your relationship with your wife... this is something you have to figure out for yourself. If you're transsexual, maybe you'll be able to manage and be a man for your wife. Or maybe a few years down the road, you won't be able to handle it anymore. Do what you need to do right now to be comfortable in life. Just because you decide to stay a man for now doesn't mean you are devoting your entire life to that decision. Things change. Take your time, be honest with yourself and more importantly, be honest with your wife. Pretending to be someone your not, with the suffering and the lies, isn't what being in a relationship is about. She deserves to know who you are. Talk about this with her and see what you all can do to support each other.

Often much easier said than done, but you are absolutely right. It is hard to confront somebody you love with a bit of news that could end the marriage, especially when nobody really did anything wrong. It's just a biological fact, but it can have massive consequences for both partners. That is where it gets difficult and sticky. Again, this is an area for both partners to take their time and not jump to quick decisions. This is hard to deal with, but it would be far harder alone, I think.

And Bree, I hope you get to enjoy your dinner tomorrow.:daydreaming:

Anna

[Bree-asaurus]

Often much easier said than done, but you are absolutely right. It is hard to confront somebody you love with a bit of news that could end the marriage, especially when nobody really did anything wrong. It's just a biological fact, but it can have massive consequences for both partners. That is where it gets difficult and sticky. Again, this is an area for both partners to take their time and not jump to quick decisions. This is hard to deal with, but it would be far harder alone, I think.

And Bree, I hope you get to enjoy your dinner tomorrow.:daydreaming:

Anna

Yeah... Not much is easy for us... but that's the life of a transsexual. :/

[Maddie22]

I already knew something was incorrect prior to being medical diagnosed as intersexed.
I never said you had to be first diagnosed to be transsexual in order to be transsexual.
You can certainly live as a intersexed or transsexual person without ever transitioning.
I lived for 39 years as a non transitioned intersexed individual.
Transsexuals can also live without transitioning but without a medical diagnosis many remain confused and delay life enriching therapy and medication that they would or could otherwise miss.
A Transsexual is something you are transitioning is something you do. :/

I understand this and agree with this viewpoint. Your earlier statement I did not interpret this way or the way you may have intended for.


I'm not saying particularly you Maddie but those that argue the merits and validity of the DSM or official and accepted medical definitions and diagnosis criteria are usually those that are neither intersexed or transsexual. :/

I don't exactly argue against the merits or validity of the DSM or official and accepted medical definitions, but I do have concerns about them. The biggest issue I have is using disorder in GID because it stigmatizes. I also have the understanding that the definitions, research and insights are and will continue to expand and change. I believe that this is good a thing if it stays positive. I believe that having a medical and psychological professional "gate keep" does much more good than harm.


I think the basic labels we have are fine... and I think the one that's really important is 'transsexual' because that diagnosis is required for transsexuals to be able to get the medical and legal support they need.

If I was a cross dresser or transgendered, I wouldn't care WHERE I fit in the spectrum... I wouldn't need to be a subset of cross dresser or transgender... who cares? I would just be myself and screw the labels. :/

I agree that at this moment and the foreseeable future, that it is important to be able to identify transsexuals, because of medical and legal needs (Legally speaking, I think any positive change for transsexuals or transgender individuals can have positive impacts on all peoples).

I feel that the spectrum and/or continuum are viewed as an infinite straight line. I look at it as closer to an infinite sphere, both in mental and physical makeup, and there are some people that can be on different points at the same time. For some people, the need to find equilibrium within themselves and within society are greater. I've said before that I hate labeling myself, because I don't know where I fit and I feel that there are so many negative connotations involved with many of these terms.


As for what forum to post in, go where you feel comfortable. Do you relate to the people in the transexual forum more than in the cross dresser forum? That's how I made the with back when I was still questioning. :/


For the most part, I do not enjoy the crossdressing forums, because while their individual issues might be very serious, I don't identify with them. I do realize that to find my happiness and equilibrium in life, I might have to be defined as a transsexual in order to get the necessary help I need. That definitely presents a conundrum for me.

Bree and Julia, please don't think that I'm trying to start an argument with you two. I'm just trying voice my opinion, maybe provide alternate points of view, as well as find other's view points and thoughts. I'm sorry if I've come across as a B!&@h, I was overly sensitive to a rebuttal of a post I made, and I apologize. I'm trying to figure a lot of things out right now, and I've been in an overall depressed stage in my life, with a lot of confusion and emptiness for a while now. The last week has really compounded many feelings.

BTW, I don't know about any of you, but I love the word Conundrum, it's also a beautiful wine!

[Bree-asaurus]

Bree and Julia, please don't think that I'm trying to start an argument with you two. I'm just trying voice my opinion, maybe provide alternate points of view, as well as find other's view points and thoughts. I'm sorry if I've come across as a B!&@h, I was overly sensitive to a rebuttal of a post I made, and I apologize. I'm trying to figure a lot of things out right now, and I've been in an overall depressed stage in my life, with a lot of confusion and emptiness for a while now. The last week has really compounded many feelings.

It's all just discussions and laid back debating to me... until someone gets their panties in a bunch, takes something too personally and cries foul.

I just get blunt... I don't really get angry. I don't see a point in getting angry in an online discussion because the only person it hurts is myself ;)

I'm just sharing my opinion like you are :)

And I can almost guarantee you I've unintentionally come across as a b**** from time to time as well.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

http://www.amazon.com/Conundrum-York-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590171896

[Aprilrain]

It is hard to confront somebody you love with a bit of news that could end the marriage,
Anna

tell em and then asses the level of love in the relationship! ; )

[Rachel Smith]

http://www.amazon.com/Conundrum-York-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590171896

Thank you Kaitlyn

Rachel

[elizabethamy]

tell em and then asses the level of love in the relationship! ; )

Yeah, well, okay...Anna Lorree is right -- nothing harder than bringing the news to the wife that you are not, as she likes to put it so elegantly, a man.
Once that news is out, then it's rough. Delivering that news is terribly hard, the fallout afterwards a hundred times worse. The love is still there, but her reaction reminds me that for those who haven't carried gender confusion around with them all their lives, gender is absolutely fundamental. "not a man?" "suppose no, not really." I don't mind saying it. But the weight it carries to her -- yeegods. Just as she only begins to understand what I'm saying, I only begin to understand how and why she is so devastated.


e.

[Anna Lorree]

tell em and then asses the level of love in the relationship! ; )

I have told my wife, it was not easy and is still not over. She is still trying to figure out what this means to and for her, which means I don't yet know what telling her will mean for me.

Anna

[Bree-asaurus]

But folks I think that's my answer to the title of this thread __ how you define transsexual -- bluntly, "not a man." Nope. not.

My FTM boyfriend would beg to differ.

Simple answer to "How do you define 'Transsexual'?"

A: With a dictionary :D :D :D

[elizabethamy]

true, bree. didn't meant to exclude the equally challenged ftm's among us. maybe this definition -- not the gender that your body told the doctors and parents you were.

we could all go mad trying to figure out what percentage of "not the gender you were born looking like" equals "transsexual," but we could also instead do our laundry and cook dinner.

e.

[Aprilrain]

I have told my wife, it was not easy and is still not over. She is still trying to figure out what this means to and for her, which means I don't yet know what telling her will mean for me.

Anna

As has been stated many times before one MUST be prepared to lose everything, that doesn't mean its easy it doesn't mean you won't cry it just means you accept the consequences of doing something positive about your situation. Easy to say hard to do.

BTW, I found out there was far more love in my relationship with my wife than i thought, that doesn't mean we are staying together though.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

BTW, I found out there was far more love in my relationship with my wife than i thought, that doesn't mean we are staying together though.

THis is what happened to me.....from my perspective my feelings never changed.

Anna, i hope you guys can figure all this out.

[ReineD]

You know what I don't understand ... if there is still love for the ex wife, then why seek or be in new relationships with men, unless the type of love that was felt toward the ex wife was not the romantic kind but more of a very deep friendship? Or perhaps you thought it was romantic at the time, but relationships with men are just more satisfying for you now?

Edit .. sorry if this seems a stupid question, but I've often read of TSs whose sexual orientations change and this is something that I don't understand, unless the sexual preference for men was always there, but suppressed. And if this is the case, would sex with a wife have seemed disconnected all these years, and would she have felt this as well but not known what was the issue?

[Bree-asaurus]

unless the sexual preference for men was always there, but suppressed. And if this is the case, would sex with a wife have seemed disconnected all these years, and would she have felt this as well but not known what was the issue?

This is exactly the case. I mean... there can still be some connection if you love somebody, but for me, sex with women was always pretty calculated, even with the one woman I did love. It's like I was a puppeteer above us, watching what was going on, making sure I made the right moves, did the right thing. I was never in the moment, I never let myself go and just give in to the passion.

I accepted that I really liked men BEFORE accepting that I was transsexual. It's just SOOO much easier and so much more natural when you're with someone your attracted to. I've been with a few guys, and with them and my current boyfriend, sex is just... natural, fluid, awesome. I'm actually taking part in it, letting myself go.

It's just like gay people can suppress their gayness for years and years, get married, have kids and then realize... OMG I'M FLAMING! And just like transsexuals can suppress their identity for years and years and then one day realize... OMG I'M REALLY A WOMAN (or man).

[ReineD]

I understand what you're saying Bree, thanks for your response.

But I just need to say how sad this is from the wife's point of view, especially if she loved her husband. How awful to realize, just a little bit at a time, that the love of your life does not return your passion to the same degree. This can be OK (maybe) in a relationship where there was no marital commitment, but when people decide to commit to each other in a huge step like marriage, this means totally giving yourself to that person ... or at least, this is the way I've always looked at it, maybe I'm naive.

On the other hand, I can understand that it can take a while for even a TS to cut through all the socialization and it would be a terrible idea to keep up with pretenses just to keep the wife happy. It just seems sad all around, except a wife ends up having her heart broken while the TS ends up finally experiencing passion the way that she has always dreamed.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

... unless the type of love that was felt toward the ex wife was not the romantic kind but more of a very deep friendship? Or perhaps you thought it was romantic at the time, but relationships with men are just more satisfying for you now?

Edit .. sorry if this seems a stupid question, but I've often read of TSs whose sexual orientations change and this is something that I don't understand, unless the sexual preference for men was always there....

Not stupid at all... quite interesting actually!!! unfortunatelyI don't understand it either...I kind of push the immpossiblity of it all out of my mind...BUT when i'm forced to think about it...

I say i was never interested in men...and i was very very interested in girls...but i was also clueless.....

i felt that the fact that i "wished" i was a girl was just a stupid problem i had to overcome...just like making the soccer team... i was a guy, that was that..nothing else to do but make the best of it...

i loved being married, i worked hard..kids were good..
but i am certain that over time, my wife felt a distance or disappointment in me...and she expressed it to me..she fell out of love with me...
and that set off alot of things for us..

Now, i can't say i look at guys and go "yummy", or think "how cute" he is.... but there is no doubt what excites me, and that's being with a guy...I would describe it as wanting to be myself WITH him, as opposed to looking at some hunky guy...

if i always felt that way about guys, i can honestly say i never noticed it..

When i think back on my marraige, it was the "being with her" part that was always wonderful to me...and years later we still have that!! even tho the legalities and living arrangements are not the same same
in fact, i just got back from a lunch with her and my youngest daughter...

it hurts me alot to think i've hurt my wife, but we have both tried to make the best of it..i messed up... i can't change it...my intentions were good at all times..but i hurt a person i deeply love... so i do my best

[Kathryn Martin]

Very interesting question this is. I am not at all sure whether sexual orientation changes at all or if there are repressed bi-sexual orientation that lies at the heart of it all. Another factor is, that Blanchards hypothesis regarding autogynephilia suggested that only true homosexuals could be TS. Invariably, the issue of attraction to men for MTF transsexuals is raised in the diagnostic questioning for both HRT and SRS clearance. It is of course a social construct when you bring it right down to it because Blanchards hypothesis is neither proven nor even on a significant scientific footing. The result is that many TS must incorporate love for men into their narrative in order to achieve what they need to achieve. Sad, but true. The aftermath is that many TS end up in relationships with other TS and not in a hetero-normative relationship after completion of their transition.

The second issue is that sexual orientation and activity has many stripes. A persons sexuality can take many forms from mechanical to highly inventive, from active to passive, from performance to stagesetter to the person coming to the theatre and just consuming. Within this vast variety there are points of connection that can be as deep and satisfying as anything. In many cases I believe the particular brand of sex that a TS can bring to the table is attractive and, well, comforting for spouses...... so much to say, wrong place to say it.....


You know what I don't understand ... if there is still love for the ex wife, then why seek or be in new relationships with men, unless the type of love that was felt toward the ex wife was not the romantic kind but more of a very deep friendship? Or perhaps you thought it was romantic at the time, but relationships with men are just more satisfying for you now?

Edit .. sorry if this seems a stupid question, but I've often read of TSs whose sexual orientations change and this is something that I don't understand, unless the sexual preference for men was always there, but suppressed. And if this is the case, would sex with a wife have seemed disconnected all these years, and would she have felt this as well but not known what was the issue?

[RachelOKC]

You know what I don't understand ... if there is still love for the ex wife, then why seek or be in new relationships with men, unless the type of love that was felt toward the ex wife was not the romantic kind but more of a very deep friendship? Or perhaps you thought it was romantic at the time, but relationships with men are just more satisfying for you now?

Edit .. sorry if this seems a stupid question, but I've often read of TSs whose sexual orientations change and this is something that I don't understand, unless the sexual preference for men was always there, but suppressed. And if this is the case, would sex with a wife have seemed disconnected all these years, and would she have felt this as well but not known what was the issue?

This resonates with me deeply. I don't look at men in the "how cute" way Kaitlyn describes - never really have except in an objective sense. Although I think I've always known I was at least bi, it took me a long time to become reasonably comfortable with my attraction to men. This attraction has become stronger over the years and I'd say that while I am emotionally attracted to women, I'm now more sexually attracted to men. For example, cuddling up with (most) men still seems very alien to me but sex itself doesn't. This disconnect between emotion and sex is difficult.

In my case, sex with my wife has been certainly disconnected making things difficult in my relationship with her. Even though there've never been secrets regarding my trans nature and our bisexual orientations, it's still not easy because of expectations and assumptions that maybe shouldn't have been. I think it would be reasonably accurate to say that while we love each other, it's not in a romantic sense any longer. I'm not quite sure how or if we can come to terms with that in our marriage, but I hope we can. I just don't know.

[Bree-asaurus]

Now, i can't say i look at guys and go "yummy", or think "how cute" he is.... but there is no doubt what excites me, and that's being with a guy...I would describe it as wanting to be myself WITH him, as opposed to looking at some hunky guy...

It's funny... even when I thought I was straight, I would still look at guys.

I think guys are hot, and they can be hot in different ways. Of course they're the stereotypical athletic build, chiseled features, etc... but then I find man guys attractive who don't fit that mold. Of course, there are plenty of gross or disgusting guys too.

But I have both the visual and emotional attraction to men. I like looking at them and I like being with them.

[LeaP]

BTW, I found out there was far more love in my relationship with my wife than i thought ...

You have to go pretty deep into yourself to find that. It speaks to your heart.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Bree's comment "It's funny... even when I thought I was straight, I would still look at guys." makes me think of a popular comment among men. 'Would you hit that?'.

I wonder how many of those doofuses though, if asked, 'if you were a woman, what would you think of that guy?' could actually comfortably give an honest opinion about another man's appearances?

I've never felt squeemish almost being honest about saying a guy looked like a hunk, if he met the normal definition of one according to a woman.
I mean, I have no problem saying when a guy looks like a bum, why would I experience difficulty saying he sat at the other end of the spectrum if he did?

I don't feel bad for looking at females critically. I don't mind it at all, and don't think it is just some vestige of malesness leaking out. I'm just admiring the person for what they are (and likely studying the outfit, and wondering if I could wear).

[Bree-asaurus]

I don't feel bad for looking at females critically. I don't mind it at all, and don't think it is just some vestige of malesness leaking out. I'm just admiring the person for what they are (and likely studying the outfit, and wondering if I could wear).

Oh I look at women too. Women are hot. I just don't want to have sex or a relationship with them.

To me, women are like art... admire from a distance :P

[Anna Lorree]

THis is what happened to me.....from my perspective my feelings never changed.

Anna, i hope you guys can figure all this out.

Thanks Kaitlyn, we are trying. It certainly isn't easy, and will require compromise and a non-traditional marriage model. This is all a bit more complicated because she has no bi leanings at all.

April, my current situation is exactly why young TS people should accept and transition early, before the entire situation is complicated by a family. I do not regret my decision to marry Knitknerd or to father children, however I do regret that they now face consequences because of my condition and earlier denial.

As to the question of orientation changing, I have a curious perspective. That is that there can't be "gay" to a TS. As a non-transitioned TS, my body is male and my mind is female. Every sex act I can engage in is both hetero and homo in nature. If I am with my wife, my body makes the act "straight", while my mind makes it "lesbian". If I were to be with a guy, it would be physically "gay", but mentally "straight". So which is more important, the physical aspect of which organs are interacting, or the mental aspect of the two people involved? That seems to be the "natural state" of this condition to me. That changes when transition enters the picture, especially if the TS person can pass.

Anna

[Anna Lorree]

Oh I look at women too. Women are hot. I just don't want to have sex or a relationship with them.

To me, women are like art... admire from a distance :P


Lol, where's the "Like" button? I do differ in that I still feel physically attracted to women, however. To me, guys simply are not attractive. That doesn't mean I haven't contemplated what intercourse would be like with one, but I am simply not attracted to or turned on by men. However, women are made for attraction and the female form is just plain sexy. I have said it before, a woman's body is like a sports car; smaller, sleek, curvy and just plain makes you want to touch her. A man's body is like a tractor or a work truck. Women are the "fun" model of humans, men are the "chore" model.

Anna

[Bree-asaurus]

A man's body is like a tractor or a work truck. Women are the "fun" model of humans, men are the "chore" model.

Anna

You don't know me that well then... I find work trucks HELLA sexy :D

mmm... all that power and torque! hehehehehe

[Anna Lorree]

You don't know me that well then... I find work trucks HELLA sexy :D

mmm... all that power and torque! hehehehehe

If that's what you like, you go girl! Like I said, I've thought about it and decided that for me, he would be nothing more than a prop or a toy. I don't like the idea of using anybody like that, so that's something I have never tried.

Anna

[TxKimberly]

Anna, I won't answer your larger question, but I will say there are those in this forum who believe that non-transitioners are not "true" TSs, in fact, they aren't women at all, which affronts those who feel differently.

Such discussions in the past have resulted in some pretty ugly posts and thread closings and so I'm asking the membership to just share their own views without attacking any one else's.

I know I probably sound like a suck up, but Reine truly IS a wise woman.

As I recall, the actual definition of a TS, when dumbed down for your average redneck like myself, is more less "someone who feels that they have been born into the wrong gender and is actively taking steps to correct the situation."

Personally I don't care for the " and is actively taking steps to correct the situation." requirement.,

I myself feel that I am TS, but I place my obligations to wife and children above my own desire for happiness. (No slight intended to those who gave up their marriages to transition)

So while the formal definition may require that you are taking active steps to change your gender, I feel that it is more about self identification. Unfortunately those who make the rules for the English language really dont care how one Kimberly Huddle feels a word should be defined. . .

[Lesley_Roberta]

My problem, where the mind and body problem are concerned where gay or not gay is concerned as well, is I am stuck in a male body with a female mind wondering 'Am I lesbian?'

Further magnified by a personal problem in that I am intensely hateful of my gender from both of my sides.

There is simply no portion of me that wants to become female physically, and then 'just go with it and be female and indulge a man'. I think I could leave the average overboard man hating feminist in my dust most days.

[Bree-asaurus]

My problem, where the mind and body problem are concerned where gay or not gay is concerned as well, is I am stuck in a male body with a female mind wondering 'Am I lesbian?'

Further magnified by a personal problem in that I am intensely hateful of my gender from both of my sides.

There is simply no portion of me that wants to become female physically, and then 'just go with it and be female and indulge a man'. I think I could leave the average overboard man hating feminist in my dust most days.

Stop thinking so much.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Stop thinking so much.

Don't keep me in suspense, where is the bloody off switch :)

[Bree-asaurus]

Don't keep me in suspense, where is the bloody off switch :)

Yeah... it's a case of "advice that I like to give, but do not know the actual solution" :P

[Rachel Mari]

Lol, where's the "Like" button? I do differ in that I still feel physically attracted to women, however. To me, guys simply are not attractive. That doesn't mean I haven't contemplated what intercourse would be like with one, but I am simply not attracted to or turned on by men.

I can say that this fits me pretty well. I have never seen a man that I have felt an attraction towards. However, my wife seems to feel that I get more feminine around some men, as if I was attracted to them. I'm not sure if I know what she means.
She feels I was too passive in our relationship and when I tried to initiate, or lead, she thinks I was just doing it to please her and I came across as not real. IDK, maybe it had to with her telling me she wasn't attracted to me anymore. I always felt I was doing what I wanted to do and she just wasn't accepting it from me. That's back when we were still together whereas now we have been seperated since last December and she's been dating other men. She wants me to explore and discover who I am, but without her on that path with me.

Sometimes I do wonder if I actually want the attention, or the love, of a man, such as in the way that they're the lead in the relationship.

Many times I want to reply to the threads but I wander all over the place sometimes and I'm afraid what I try to say gets all mixed up. I hope this all makes sense.

[Rianna Humble]

As I recall, the actual definition of a TS, when dumbed down for your average redneck like myself, is more less "someone who feels that they have been born into the wrong gender and is actively taking steps to correct the situation."

Personally I don't care for the " and is actively taking steps to correct the situation." requirement.

Neither do I, but fortunately not all medical reference works include that. I prefer
a person whose gender identity is the opposite of his or her biologic sex because I have always been TS, I didn't suddenly become TS when I sought help to relieve the dysphoria

I greatly respect (even if I cannot fully understand) those TS folks who have been married and I would not put someone down if they are able to cope with the dysphoria sufficiently to put their loved-ones needs above the desire to transition. Unfortunately, for many of us transition is not a desire but a desperate need - even a last resort.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Don't sweat the "is actively taking steps part"
just think of it this way... i never started taking steps until i was 45 yrs old...was i transsexual before then but not now???

The differences in trannsexuals lie in what they "know" about themselves, and what they are doing about it..

Many of us that transitioned lived with all those scenarios...first we didnt know, then we knew, then we didnt do anything..then we were slaughtered with overwhelming gender dysphoria, then we did something...

I know that for me, I got to my place by meeting lots of transsexuals that had transitioned, some who have not, GQ people, as well as crossdressers (some who claim to be transsexuals)...experience was important to me...face to face experience...we dont transition in therapy groups and message boards.....i joined cd clubs, i played around in the cd sex scene... i went to meetings.. group therapy..outings......this was how i got my real info...you can learn so much

in those years, what i've learned is that if you make it past college as a guy, its usually the GID that spurs action.....
and like pain, we all have a tolerance for it, but unlike pain it never goes away, and it always always gets worse...the feeling of living a fulfilling life is simply unavailable to you, and the more you try, the more empty and frustrating things get..

If it goes away or it never gets worse , my lay interpretation of that is that you truly authentically have a male "side"...you get moments of real life....you are not likely transsexual...
and if you are focused totally on silky smooth skin, or beautiful dresses , make up or the finery of it all... try to stay that way and hopefully take comfort you are not likely ts, no matter how much you want to be...

I don't care one way or another, but I say it bluntly because to me its so important to honestly know yourself so you can be smart about what you do about it...
this is just my personal experience from years of meeting people... in my personal life, when i meet a person that is ts or tg, i have always (its human nature) thought to myself very quickly .."that person is ts"...and so far i have always been right...and if not transitioned, they are quite unhappy (i think Inna had a wonderful comment about this)..its strange how it seems to me like you can tell...and its suprising how long many of us go before we can make that determination for ourselves (including me!)

I don't think its such a bad thing to share opinions like this

especially because in this group, there are lots of people that don't have the ability to get out and meet people like i did...i had transsexual women, genetic women and crossdressers tell me what they thought to my face...it was an up and down experience, but this was VITAL information to me... those conversations shaped my life in a good way...that's harder to accomplish here...there is less consequence to posers and liars, but hopefully people can figure out who's for real and whose not

++++++++++++++++++++
by the way...sharee...SQUAD LEADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG.... I have almost every expansion, plus many of the custom maps that all the grognards had...when i was in college i had a Operation Market Garden scenario that sat on my dad's ping pong table as we played for almost three years!! in the end, i found the game inpenetrable...but as a gamer, i still look at the boxes and chits and think how "cool" it is..LOL

[Raquel June]

I accepted that I really liked men BEFORE accepting that I was transsexual.

...

It's just like gay people can suppress their gayness for years and years, get married, have kids and then realize... OMG I'M FLAMING! And just like transsexuals can suppress their identity for years and years and then one day realize... OMG I'M REALLY A WOMAN (or man).



i felt that the fact that i "wished" i was a girl was just a stupid problem i had to overcome...just like making the soccer team... i was a guy, that was that..nothing else to do but make the best of it...



My problem, where the mind and body problem are concerned where gay or not gay is concerned as well, is I am stuck in a male body with a female mind wondering 'Am I lesbian?'


I'm intrigued by the developmental progression you see in trans people and how tied it is to the progression of their acceptance of both their gender and their sexual preference.

I knew I wanted to be a girl -- or that I would rather be a girl -- as soon as I knew anything. But I also knew I was a boy and I couldn't do anything about it but pray. And I knew I was attracted to girls very early. But that's a long way from accepting being a trans-lesbian. That's a long way from even understanding that those things exist.

Once my hormones kicked in I knew something was wrong. I could only assume I was gay. An odd assumption since I was attracted to women, but things just weren't right. I even downloaded self-hypnosis software to try to convince myself I liked guys. It didn't seem to work.

Fast forward to five years ago and I started to understand that I was trans. And eventually I accepted that. But I'm still not quite to the point of accepting the lesbian part.

The thing is, there are people you find attractive, and then there are sexual situations that you find satisfying. And that's really messed up that those may not be the same thing.

I love women. Seeing a woman with a small waist and a big butt makes me drift off into a happy place and start salivating. And my serious relationships have been with that type of woman. But I have to admit to myself that I'm not quite sure what there is that I want to do sexually with a curvy straight woman.

And in my sexual relationships, the sex has been much better with the athletic girls who were more active. It's like I want to be with a curvy girl and do things for her, but I would rather have sex with an aggressive girl who's into me. Think Angelina Jolie in a tight wife beater -- maybe with a lesbian haircut.

I was pretty happy being with a short black girl with kinda short hair and a big butt who called me Princess and said, "You my girl," a lot. She was bi and didn't act butch outside the bedroom. But she eventually told me she didn't want to be a lesbian and wanted me to detransition and started cheating on me. But it was a pretty awesome relationship before that. :) lolz

And I can't deny that I like guys hitting on me. Which brings up the whole issue of what I need to validate my femininity. I'm not attracted go guys, but I'm sure the right one could make me feel great. Then again, I'm horrified by the idea of stubble touching my boobs, which rules out pretty much my favorite sexual activity.

I really think I just need to fully accept that I want to be with a lesbian who's into me -- because I'm a woman who is attracted to women and I'm sure the right one would make me feel beautiful and validate my femininity and I'd be totally into her at the same time. But currently I feel like more of a novelty that bi-curious girls are intrigued by and kinky guys are hot for.