what gives?

[kittypw GG]

I was at the verizon wireless store in my city and there was an obvious dude in a dress. Not only was he dressed inappropriately but he was wearing the most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup. He wore a blonde wig and kept flipping his hair while talking to the very accomodating verizon rep. All the while wasting everyone's time saying that he was saving up for the phone he wanted. Really?? Is this how cd's want to represent themselves? I felt sad and embarssed for him. Is being a women just a joke for some? Why do some want to make such a mockery of being a women? That is not how any women I know represents themselves. So tell me what gives?

[NathalieX66]

Sounds pretty tame compared to the pictures I see on the People of Walmart website.
I wouldn't worry about it. This person doesn't speak for me.

[Sara Jessica]

It's a tough one because he doesn't speak for me either bur like it or not, he affects perception of all who follow in his wake.

Some believe in our social responsibility, others not so much.

[Karren H]

I was just in the verizon store!! Didn't think I was flipping my hair that much! Lol.

[AllieSF]

Doesn't speak for me either, and I have seen GG's look just as bad if not worse. I say ignore it and you will be much happier. One bad example does not represent anything, and is not even an example.

[Julogden]

She may have been a total beginner who is really bad at putting her look together, but who knows? We really have no way of knowing what was going on, so I would hesitate to do any condemning.

Carol

[Davena Doll]

Did he say "he was saving up" that is not cool she should have enugh money already. I would love to drag a man by his hair down the street while Xdressed does that help.

[CINDYO]

who cares as long as he is not in a relationship/embarassing a GG by the nonsense, what ever turns his crank, he knows how rediculous his presentation is. Make your own deductions from that.

[Megan72]

Kitty
This person does not speak for me or the vast majority of us who in reality emulate females because of sincere appriciation for women. I can only speak for me but when I go out I feel a need to present as well as possible, for me and as to not lend to stereotypes of both crossdressers and women. This person obviously is incorrect about what it is to blend in. kelli

[Jenniferathome]

Kitty, I am very sensitive to the "appropriate" issue as well. I know some like the ****ty look for unknown reasons but that is not, what I believe, is the look that most of us crossdressers want. I respect women. I think they are beautiful and I never want to be a joke of a woman.

[morgan51]

Probably an at&t rep. doing some espionage.

[sterling12]

I don't like it much either, gives a lot of our Enemy's a bunch of ammunition. "Did you see that strange man dressed like a woman? God, they all seem to look like that!"

But, we have had this conversation before, and it almost always ends by people agreeing that no matter how God-Awful or strange, no matter how offensive, no matter how much like a **** or a weirdo they look like; we ALL have our "Bad Hair Days," and have no right to tell them how to dress or act! In this Country people have the Right to behave as they wish, as long as it doesn't effect The Rights of others. It probably hurts all of the rest of us in The T-Community, but we aren't in a position to judge if we want the rest of society to respect ALL of us.

Which is absolutely true! However, I just wish they wouldn't do it.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Jane G]

I'm guessing a massive extrovert that is not long into cross-dressing. Or maybe a dare.

:rofl:KAREN HUTTON YOU CRACK ME UP YOU CRAZY GAL:cheer:

[Delila]

I was at the verizon wireless store in my city and there was an obvious dude in a dress. Not only was he dressed inappropriately but he was wearing the most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup. He wore a blonde wig and kept flipping his hair while talking to the very accomodating verizon rep. All the while wasting everyone's time saying that he was saving up for the phone he wanted. Really?? Is this how cd's want to represent themselves? I felt sad and embarssed for him. Is being a women just a joke for some? Why do some want to make such a mockery of being a women? That is not how any women I know represents themselves. So tell me what gives?
Sadly this is how many not most CDers represent the rest of us. I have rarely encountered a CDer in public where they were not dressed completely inappropriately. I think you see this more because the rest of us that are more reserved are also too reserved to leave home dressed.

[WifeofWrenchette]

They may not have anyone at home to help them with their hair and make up and don't know any better.

[kittypw GG]

I was just in the verizon store!! Didn't think I was flipping my hair that much! Lol.

Karen you make me laugh. I seriously doubt that it was you I've seen your pictures and that was not even close to you. Sara, I agree it does affect perception. Similarialy, women who look over the top like barbie or have huge fake boobs also make a mockery of being a women in my opinion. It's hard to take the ones outside of the norm seriously.


who cares as long as he is not in a relationship/embarassing a GG by the nonsense, what ever turns his crank, he knows how rediculous his presentation is. Make your own deductions from that.

But do you think he does know how rediculious his presentation is? When someone presents that way either male or female I am a tad bit offended. Women have fought hard to gain respect in this world and some still want to tear it down. Maybe its just to get attention? Some don't mind the negative kind. It's just puzzeling. I saw a women on a talk show the other day with boobs bigger than my dogs and lips to match. I'm also offended by that. Women are more than makeup, dresses, heels and boobs. Just saying.

[Beverley Sims]

Being ****ty and extreme is for parties where everyone knows who you are.

[Raychel]

I have to agree, if anyone os going out they should definitly be dressed appropriatly, and act like you are representing all the crossdressers in the world.

For me I would never attempt the Verizon store dressed as a lady. I almost always want to choke someone by the time I leave there. And that would not be appropriate for a lady. :heehee:

[Shelly Preston]

I guess not everyone is perfect when they go out.

The sad thing is the better you look the less you are noticed in terms of passing.

I guess this person could have used some advice as to what they they need to do to improve

Maybe you should offer to help them Kitty ?

[~Joanne~]

I don't know if this person was trying to make women look bad or not. A lot of them do fine in that department themselves. It may have just been a beginner who though they passed better than they did and did what they thought women do. Seeing your part of the community, you took it as an insult while others, if they even paid attention, thought of it as a joke or such.

I am not saying your not right Kitty, some dressers really go over the top when out but most you would never know they are there:)

[Princess Chantal]

Sounds pretty tame compared to the pictures I see on the People of Walmart website.
I wouldn't worry about it. This person doesn't speak for me.
And to think of how many people on here post about shopping at Walmart..... just saying LOL

[Billie_M]

I am really surprised someone goes out that way. I work real hard trying to pass. Don't think I succeed, but I would never put myself into that obvious a position. Like the comments of others, let's hope this was a "bet" or something out of the ordinary.

[YorkshireRose]

Not a look I would aspire to, but then neither is the "slob" look and I see plenty of both men and women dressed like that. At the end of the day we don't know their back story, so judging them based on a chance meeting in a store strikes me as somewhat harsh. Live and let live I say!

[Miriam-J]

I'm bothered by anything that validates the negative stereotypes that many people have of crossdressers. Clearly there are a number of different flavors amongst our ranks, but it seems it would be best if those who abandon dignity in their clothing choices keep it private out of respect for those of us who are trying to increase public acceptance.

In the historical context, each civil rights struggle has been advanced by those who embraced their uniqueness with dignity, showing the world their best sides. Do we think that blacks, hispanics, or gays would have succeeded in entering the mainstream if the least dignified members were the most visible element? Please, if you're going to display in public, show the type of dignity that would make people proud to welcome you.

Miriam

[Tina B.]

Not a look I would aspire to, but then neither is the "slob" look and I see plenty of both men and women dressed like that. At the end of the day we don't know their back story, so judging them based on a chance meeting in a store strikes me as somewhat harsh. Live and let live I say!

Thank you Rose, I was wondering if someone would say it before I got to the bottom of this thread! It sounds like the judgment police are up in arms again. I've been to walmart, and they are not the only one, I've seen women in the stores, in a old tee, and pajama bottoms, and things so scary I won't mention them here. I've never thought it reflected bad on all women, just the one standing there looking like a fool. Same goes for men, and crossdressers. Whewn you go out, you don't represent me, and I don't represent you. I don't care how you look, if you get read, then you didn't get away with it, and if you didn't, who knows your there anyway. So at least this fool, showed the world, men can wear what they want, the the world be damnned, a lot of us in the closet wish we where that brave!
Tina B.
"Judge not, lest yea be judged" I don't get to church, but I belive that's the way it goes.

[tiffanythecd2001]

:) I myself dress and go out dressed , some times with no make up on, o-well i forgot, but my idea of a women is too do your own thing, and build on that,, i seen lot's older males with there big guy glasses on and dressed, big no no, get a pair made into women glasses, mine are unisex, but like i said each to there own, i like too , and i know this sounds bad, but too study the women on the streets, for there fashion changes as the season changes, so i dress like that, i dont dress up as a sex toy, mayby that what this guy was doing and had too run too the phone store, were as he could have save time, by doing over the net, but i dont judge others , i just know whats works for me and i put lots hours in too shop for clothes and put on my makeup and stuff and since i work in a place with female teens of all ages , i pretty much can tell what there look is , would look good on me :daydreaming:

[Kate Simmons]

Well Kitty, you know my feelings on that. If you can't be yourself and take responsibility for your own actions ( by pretending to emulate someone and mocking them), you are just showing your ignorance and wasting everyone's time.:)

[sandra-leigh]

I wear socks with sandals, I wear white after Labor Day, my hair is not styled to imitate Kate Middleton, I wear jeans, I have Breasts but I don't wear a bra, I don't wear a slip, and (worst of all) some of what I wear is So Last Year.

If these things bother you, then feel free to move somewhere where you don't have to interact with me. I don't owe anyone to dress any particular way.

[Badtranny]

well, we've been down this road before and once again it is always fun to watch people who are so closeted they don't even have an avatar pic (on a CD forum!) advising others about how they should go out. I think it's a positive when ANYONE goes out even when it's embarrassing to those of us who consider ourselves "normal".

In this case the thread was started by a natal woman and she is entitled to her feelings. Keep in mind that a good bit of her enmity is very likely the result of a sort of reflexive defense of her CD friends on this board. She's not embarrassed for herself, she's embarrassed for other CD's. I think it's very sweet.

[NicoleScott]

When someone presents that way either male or female I am a tad bit offended. .................. I saw a women on a talk show the other day with boobs bigger than my dogs and lips to match. I'm also offended by that.

Maybe the problem is: you are too easily offended. It's your choice to be offended - or not.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

In this case the thread was started by a natal woman and she is entitled to her feelings. Keep in mind that a good bit of her enmity is very likely the result of a sort of reflexive defense of her CD friends on this board. She's not embarrassed for herself, she's embarrassed for other CD's. I think it's very sweet.

Melissa this is how I read the OP.

Of course everyone is entitled to go out wearing what they want as long as they're not exposing themselves indecently.

Its a shame though if people judge all CD'ers by the unusual attire of the person described by the Kitty - I'm sure there are a lot more CD'ers out and about but they are well dressed and blending in so unfortunately its only the 'strangely dressed' ones that get noticed.

Nicole, I'm interested by your take on being offended or not - and Im not picking a fight but I'm genuinely interested - do you think being offended is something someone can choose or not? I'm not sure if that's possible. I'm inclined to think being offended is a bit like getting embarrassed - it seems to just happen whether you want it to or not. I cant imagine anyone consciously making the decision "oh I think I'm going to be offended by ..... today"

[sandra-leigh]

do you think being offended is something someone can choose or not? I'm not sure if that's possible. I'm inclined to think being offended is a bit like getting embarrassed - it seems to just happen whether you want it to or not.

I find that in both cases, getting offended or getting embarrassed, although the original "spark" might be something external, that it takes some time to "bloom", and that there is often (in my experience) enough time to think (at least briefly) before it has "taken over". Enough time to re-examine contextual clues about what is really happening; enough time to figure out whether the the person giving the potential offense is competent enough to be offended at; enough time to decide whether one is too tired to get offended or embarrassed right then; enough time to say "Hold on, I have a perfect right to do this, I'm not going to be embarrassed".

If something offends you in one context but not another, then in my opinion, Yes, you probably make a decision to be offended or not.

[Sara Jessica]

I guess not everyone is perfect when they go out.

It has nothing to do with perfection, nor with passing. It has everything to do with being respectful of women in general and also being mindful of those who follow in our wake.

Take anyone who is part-time in presentation in public as a female. If the fire gets too hot after their little escapade, they can retreat to male mode and no one is the wiser. But what of the transitioning woman who might follow in her wake? Perceptions have already been created and she will be "one of them" to the Muggles who might perceive her as being trans.

Also, it's not like we are in a blind society where people muddle through doing the best they can without any education. Anyone can access a computer along with sites such as this one to actually learn a thing or two before taking those fateful steps into the great outdoors. Things are much different now than they were not so long ago when many of us did what we felt we had to do without the benefit of a lot of information or education but these days, there's really no excuse for not making at least a little effort.


Same goes for...crossdressers. Whewn you go out, you don't represent me, and I don't represent you. I don't care how you look, if you get read, then you didn't get away with it, and if you didn't, who knows your there anyway. So at least this fool, showed the world, men can wear what they want, the the world be damnned, a lot of us in the closet wish we where that brave!
Tina B.
"Judge not, lest yea be judged" I don't get to church, but I belive that's the way it goes.

I originally said this was a tough one but I stand by my principles which are acutely refined based upon friendships with women who have transitioned and being witness to what they have to go through. I hold our community accountable, not to be a vision of perfection (gosh knows I'm far from that) but at least to be respectful of women and to make a sincerely decent effort when it comes to their presentation. If this is judgmental, then so be it. I see it as a form of social responsibility.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

I can't speak for that person or what is going through their mind. The only similarity I have with that person is we are GM's and somewhere along the TG spectrum. The look presented is not the one I would ever want or intend to wear in public should I ever start doing so. Basically it's not for me, just the same as wearing pants falling off my waist exposing 3 pairs of shorts/boxer's underneath isn't for me in male mode.

[ReineD]

I know the type, I've seen them too, but it's not the norm at least in the rather large CD/TS support group that my SO and I attend. Everyone has a different sense of aesthetics and yes, there are people out there who when they look at themselves in the mirror, don't see what everyone else sees. I've also seen non-TGs whose manner of dress sticks out, both men and women.

[sandra-leigh]

Take anyone who is part-time in presentation in public as a female. If the fire gets too hot after their little escapade, they can retreat to male mode and no one is the wiser. But what of the transitioning woman who might follow in her wake? Perceptions have already been created and she will be "one of them" to the Muggles who might perceive her as being trans.

Urrr, I am one of the transitioning, and the major difference between what I do full-time, noted above (e.g., I wear white after Labor Day), compared to what my wife does, is that she is less likely to go braless.


there's really no excuse for not making at least a little effort.

Excuse?? What, are we back to needing notes from our parents, "Please excuse Johnny-Jane for having wrinkled clothes today; we ran out of time because the toilet backed up." ??

You don't have to excuse what you choose to wear, and what I choose to wear is a fact not a matter to which excuses apply. If I wear a cross between a Kardasian and Johnny Rotton, then get over it.

[Eryn]

Kitty, if the person wearing "most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup.", etc. had been a GG would you have mentioned it here, or anywhere? I doubt it, because then she would have simply been expressing her own style. The "heavy hooker" look was invented by someone, and it wasn't a CDer! :)

Freedom is the ability to make decisions for oneself, even those that are perceived as unfashionable by people who are easily offended. That particular CDer doesn't represent the CD community any more than a professional hooker represents the GG community.

[kittypw GG]

I know the type, I've seen them too, but it's not the norm at least in the rather large CD/TS support group that my SO and I attend. Everyone has a different sense of aesthetics and yes, there are people out there who when they look at themselves in the mirror, don't see what everyone else sees. I've also seen non-TGs whose manner of dress sticks out, both men and women.

Well you have that right Reine. Everyone was very respectful of this person but his over characterization of women was really off putting. I agree this is a free country but I too think we have social responsibilities to present ourselves appropriately. If you want that kind of look perhaps you should knock yourself out in the evening at a club not the verizon wireless store?

[lori m crawford]

i think if we as crossdressers shod look as good as we can after all we are trying to be women as best we can not to make fun of us from all the pictures of you girls you look great we shood wear what wont but look as good as we can no can look like a move star but we can be a good looking women if we wont

[Nigella]

and i think it is about time some of us got off our high horses. It is not and never will be our place to determine how someone else should present themselves.

[Sandra1746]

If we expect people to accept us as we look we have no business criticizing anyone else. Being overly critical of someones choice of dress or makeup is little different from criticizing someone with a physical deformity. Very bad form.

A good silent mantra for us is: "there but for fortune...".

Just MHO,
Sandra1746

[Barbara Ella]

there is really no way to know what the thoughts were in his mind. There are lots of troubled individuals who may or may not be taking their meds, and/or not thinking right at the moment. Must agree that it does deepen the hole that the rest of us have to work our way out of. I shudder to think what some GG's would think if they had seen me out recently, and i was really trying, but still, to some it would likely come across as a dumbass dude in a dress.

Barbara

[WifeofWrenchette]

I can't speak for that person or what is going through their mind. The only similarity I have with that person is we are GM's and somewhere along the TG spectrum. The look presented is not the one I would ever want or intend to wear in public should I ever start doing so. Basically it's not for me, just the same as wearing pants falling off my waist exposing 3 pairs of shorts/boxer's underneath isn't for me in male mode.That and what about "plumber's crack" too? None of it is flattering.

I've seen many GG's with their butt cheeks hanging out of the bottom of their shorts, not wearing bras with their big udders hanging out the side of their shirts.

All of that is unflattering.

I can see what some people are saying though that putting one's best foot forward is the biggest step towards acceptance.

[AllieSF]

I also agree with Nigella's, Eryn's and Sandra-Leigh's responses. And to clarify my position. I do not really like that look on anyone I believe that it is rude for us to belittle someone else, especially in writing here as if some are trying to shame people who dress differently and who do not meet someone else's standards, because of how they look, dress, talk, or whatever. Sounds to me like they are talking down about them, which really turns my stomach when coming from members here that look, argue for, complain about the acceptance and tolerance that we get or do not get when out in the real world. I am not saying that one cannot look at someone else and think to themselves, "What a disaster!". But, when someone posts that, again especially here on this support site, I always wonder who gave them the right to be the Fashion, Look or Lifestyle Police, and who has the right to set minimum and maximum standards for criticizing others?

As for setting a bad example for us "others", it always sounds to me like some are trying to create more excuses and reasons for not doing what they want to do, versus just facing their own fears and testing the waters to see if the real world is really so bad, or just trying to get someone to adapt to their own standard of how to "be". I also wonder why the thread everything to a CD's bad representation of the rest of us, and doesn't consider nor mention (until later in the thread) the same thing about genetic males and females out there who have been doing the same thing all their lives in far greater numbers. There are always threads like this that serve no other purpose than to try to make others conform indirectly or directly to someones point of view. Admit it naysayers. We have all seen those weird genetic humans out there that may be disgusting (in our own point of view) and then we never make comments about how they are setting a bad example for the rest of their kind. Why? Because in the end they don't affect in any way what the rest of the world that really matters thinks. A little bit of bad press or exposure once in a rare while will not derail the progress that we are continually making. As I said in my first post here. Just ignore it as an aberration that does not hurt anyone. Life is a lot easier and happier for everyone that way. Enjoy and celebrate the diversity, which we are definitely part of.

[RainyNightGirl]

If we expect people to accept us as we look we have no business criticizing anyone else.
Sandra1746

Totally agree Sandra, well said

[Lori B]

I was just in the verizon store!! Didn't think I was flipping my hair that much! Lol.me too......:brolleyes:and I was at Wally World too.........:facepalm::o

[dianne_1234]

I'm actually surprised at all the posts excusing the CDer and bashing Kitty.

Yes, each person should be allowed to wear what they want. And yet...

Each individual really does reflect on other individuals who are part of their group.

Many of us have said something like "doesn't speak for me", but in reality, typical people "hear" (see) the bad behaviour of the CDer and what they hear, to them, *does* speak for us.

I'd feel pity for the CDer, and I hope, had one of us been there to see it, might have taken pity and gently stepped in to smooth the situation out somehow.

How could someone have done that? What would they say, to whom, what else could you do to help people get along together?

[sandra-leigh]

This afternoon at the local (respectable) mall, as we were driving in the parking lot, we saw a young woman (18-19-ish?) skateboard by. She had shorter mousey brown hair unattractively cut; a lighter complexion; black lipstick; some kind of dark makeup that didn't suit her; a light turquoise dress that totally clashed with her complexion and makeup; and medium-thick black pantyhose with obvious ladders up both legs, with gaps big enough that surely they were deliberate.

She should have been ashamed of the image of young women that she was projecting -- Proper young women do not suddenly skateboard out from between parked cars!


Each individual really does reflect on other individuals who are part of their group.

I shake in horror at all of the CD, TG, and TS everywhere that I am letting down by not chasing every last dandelion in my lawn! What-ever must my neighbors think as I wave and say hello as I walk past them? That I am letting down My Kind by being no better than my neighbors, and that My Kind is getting Overly Familiar by Talking To Them Without Permission?

[Jacqueline Winona]

Think of this the same way you do when you see some of the younger guys in our society who wear a belt around their thighs so their pants don't drop all the way to their ankles- neither look is indicative of how most dress and neither should be confused as "this is the way everyone in that group dresses."

[Mimi]

I have seen GGs on this site take great offense to posts from CDers who complain about women going out in public with chipped nail polish or looking less than feminine. I think we should afford the CDers the same courtesy we ask of them, and not post complaints about the way they choose to dress in public.

[AllieSF]

Hi Dianne,

Welcome to the Forum. I personally was not bashing Kitty and I respect her opinions and those of others. I was disagreeing with her. These type of threads pop up here all the time and get all types of comments, which are mostly repeats by what the posters have written before. What that lady was thinking and doing, and all the Why's and What's are not known by anyone here because no one here talked to here. It is all conjecture. It is her life and if she wants help, I think, being an adult, she knows how to ask for it. Maybe she was very happy to be out presenting exactly like she did. If I read between the lines of your post, like others who are negative on how that lady was presenting herself, I would say that you are criticizing her too, directly or indirectly. She probably does not need anyone's help. She is being she. You are criticizing her just because she does not conform to your line of thinking and that of many others here. Well, as you have probably already noticed, all of us who crossdress fall way outside the norms of most of society. Do you want to be criticized for dressing in the opposite gender's clothes? I don't, and therefore, I duly respect and fight for others Rights to dress and present as they like, whether or not it meets my personal idea of what is presentable. I try very hard to be respectful of everyone, even those that I disagree with, and I think that I am mostly doing that. I only request that everyone look at their own written opinions as an open minded third party might, and maybe they will see that sometimes their own "supporting" comments fall far short of doing that.

It seems more like acceptance if you meet their rules, not unconditional acceptance. When people can accept others for who they are and look past the "looks", then you will see the big changes for tolerance and acceptance that we all, at least I think it is all, strive for.

[StarrOfDelite]

To the OP: "Lighten up, Francis." as was said by Sgt. Hulka, Stripes.

[Sara Jessica]

Urrr, I am one of the transitioning, and the major difference between what I do full-time, noted above (e.g., I wear white after Labor Day), compared to what my wife does, is that she is less likely to go braless.

Excuse?? What, are we back to needing notes from our parents, "Please excuse Johnny-Jane for having wrinkled clothes today; we ran out of time because the toilet backed up." ??

You don't have to excuse what you choose to wear, and what I choose to wear is a fact not a matter to which excuses apply. If I wear a cross between a Kardasian and Johnny Rotton, then get over it.

Don't worry, I'm not the least bit concerned about what you choose to wear, just as you have no concern for the fact that I would be an ally for your cause were it not for the fact that you clearly march to your own drum and apparently don't have any desire for allies. I'm glad you are full time, I'm thrilled that you don't care what anyone else thinks but ya know what? I have enough full-timers as both dear friends and acquaintances who have a rough go at it each and ever day and yet have no choice but to soldier on as best they can. Those are the people I am proud to champion for as best as I am able.

This is the THIRD time I have said it, this position is not an easy one to take but I have stated my case and based on my own personal experiences, I will not waver. If voicing such principles is grounds for overly simplistic generalizations about what my (apparently minority) opinion is, then so be it.


I'm actually surprised at all the posts excusing the CDer and bashing Kitty.

Yes, each person should be allowed to wear what they want. And yet...

Each individual really does reflect on other individuals who are part of their group.

Many of us have said something like "doesn't speak for me", but in reality, typical people "hear" (see) the bad behaviour of the CDer and what they hear, to them, *does* speak for us.

I'd feel pity for the CDer, and I hope, had one of us been there to see it, might have taken pity and gently stepped in to smooth the situation out somehow.

How could someone have done that? What would they say, to whom, what else could you do to help people get along together?

We are part of a minority group. When one is a minority, then individual actions do in fact reflect on the group as far as the majority is concerned. This is why individualism, modes of expression and/or presentation, etc. when perpetrated by members of a group which is in the majority are seen as simply that...expression, not necessarily a reflection on the group as a whole. Yet when a minority grouped individual goes against the grain, all bets are off.

Excuse me for having respect, for associating with people who share such respect, and for encouraging such respect from others who may take fateful steps into the real world. I will not encourage behavior or presentation described by Kitty by adopting a "you go girl" mentality or saying, "hey, he's doing the best he can". Fact of the matter is that he isn't and if one is halfway paying attention to the world around them, they can take steps to make a respectful presentation.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Kitty,

I agree with you.

You asked if being a woman was a joke for some. No I wouldn't say a joke but a sexual fetish, a hobby and a compulsion for men.

Many ask why transitioned TS and IS women disappear after transition instead of staying in a group of men that never represented their needs, wants or concerns.
This is just a small example of why we move forward within the context of the public arena of Work, home and leisure life.


Julia

[Kaz]

Woah! Big thread... I am just thinking of little old me wanting to pass and get away with it... go about my business without hassle...

And then there is my fear of what the greater public think and how they judge 'pervs'

And the girl does good and the girl does fine, but underneath she knows that society thinks she is a 'perv'...
So she take a lot of trouble and works out how to do it, but underneath she knows she is still just a 'perve'...
So she builds on her fears and she builds on her time, all the way making sure she is the diamond... at least in her eyes...

She captures attention, she's getting support, she feels she is capable of so much more...
She's making improvements, making this her own, following a movement... no longer feeling alone,
And all of this excitement builds inside her, she has got a fatal decider... coming up...

Am I TS, TG, CD, AP, BG, DS, KJ, Could I just be pretending to be a CD? Jeez I thought I was!

Sorry... I felt a song coming on...

Chords are what you want... it works several ways, the outro is to play the pretending bit ironically!

Sorry... just my wierd sense of humour...

[docrobbysherry]

I was at the verizon wireless store in my city and there was an obvious dude in a dress. Not only was he dressed inappropriately but he was wearing the most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup. He wore a blonde wig and kept flipping his hair while talking to the very accomodating verizon rep. All the while wasting everyone's time saying that he was saving up for the phone he wanted. Really?? Is this how cd's want to represent themselves? I felt sad and embarssed for him. Is being a women just a joke for some? Why do some want to make such a mockery of being a women? That is not how any women I know represents themselves. So tell me what gives?
Kitty, do u realize that unless u, or anyone here, passes PERFECTLY when they go out, the average Muggle mite think EXACTLY THE SAME THING ABOUT ANY OF US that u thot about that CD?

Why? What did he/she do to u?

I agree with u entirely, Allie! I COULD have been that CD!

[Babette]

I'm with Kitty on this one. If it were me in that Verizon store instead of her, I would have felt the same way. Yes I do recognize everyone's right to choose their own style. Go for it if looking that way makes you feel good about yourself! That doesn't mean I have to feel good about it too.

For the record, I have been around situations that were very similar to Kitty's experience. They didn't always involve a MTF CD either. People from all walks of life do some really weird things. I typically mind my own business and never say anything to them. In my mind however, I am screaming OMG!!!!!

Babette

[BRANDYJ]

My Two cents. What Kitty saw was a guy that was dressed in a manor that she felt was in poor taste for where she saw this person. I have to agree with her. Face facts, we all have what we feel is good taste/poor taste in what we wear be it a guy, a woman, a CD or TS. I don't call it judging as much as it is seeing someone dressed in a manor that just looks horrible tasteless or whatever adjective you want to put on it. If i was there with Kitty and saw this person, I would not have said a word to embarrass or insult him. But I'd be shaking my head and laughing to myself, in disgust for such a spectacle he made of himself. we all judge others. To say we don't is kidding ourselves. I feel the same way when I see these guys with waists down around their knees in pants of jeans that look 5 times to big. Gee, am I judging simply because that look to me is disgusting, dumb, stupid and ugly? No, I'm not. What I am doing is expressing my personal likes and dislikes in what I see. But if you dress like that or the guy Kitty saw, we most likely will not become friends. But sure, you are free to dress any way you want to. Go ahead. Just don't expect all of us to like what we see. If I dressed as stylish as I can, do my best to look like a well dressed woman on the street, I'm not gonna pass. So I accept the fact that the majority of people are going to react badly toward me and not like what they see. I don't see that as judging me. I see it as them not liking the image I present because it is not common for a man to be seen in a dress, heels and makeup. I support their right to not like it. After all, they are human just like me.

[Eryn]

The important lesson is to not ask questions at the Verizon store while other people are waiting. They will not think well of you.

[Kate T]

I think this one has been almost covered though I would also add the following. By definition you are not seeing the CD's who do "blend in". Consequently it will ALWAYS seem that the over characterised CD is the "norm" because they are the only ones that your brain samples.

I can understand your feelings Kitty, and I think if this person was presenting this way in order to mock women then yes I would say that you do have cause to be offended. However as others have already said, have you seriously considered that this person may, at this stage, be unable to present in a better manner? What if that was their first venture out (admittedly not likely given the social interaction you describe), maybe they do not have a friend / SO to assist them with makeup and clothes selection. Or maybe they have a behavioural problem and are seeking attention in a socially inappropriate manner. These reasons would make me concerned for the persons welfare more so than worried they are giving CD's a "bad name".

I also think we do have a "choice" in how we feel. Yes there is no doubt that genetic and socially ingrained prejudices will often be our "gut" response however we are humans, not animals. We have the ability to reason and feel beyond those "gut" instincts and become better people.

[KarenNY]

I was at the verizon wireless store in my city and there was an obvious dude in a dress. Not only was he dressed inappropriately but he was wearing the most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup. He wore a blonde wig and kept flipping his hair while talking to the very accomodating verizon rep. All the while wasting everyone's time saying that he was saving up for the phone he wanted. Really?? Is this how cd's want to represent themselves? I felt sad and embarssed for him. Is being a women just a joke for some? Why do some want to make such a mockery of being a women? That is not how any women I know represents themselves. So tell me what gives?

Kitty, I completely commiserate.... for me, presenting myself as a woman -- as passable as possible, anyway -- is an honor that I always took seriously... probably it was drummed into me by my mother -- she was very accepting and supportive, but I darn well had to make sure I dressed appropriately and acted like I belonged in the clothes! She always told me not to treat being a girl like some kind of dress-up game... if I wanted to dress en femme, then I needed to put my best high-heeled foot forward and look and act like a "proper young lady", not a tramp... so I have never wanted to do a half-rear-ended job on my presentation or emulation of femininity... that guy in drag doesn't speak for me as a CDer...

[CloserthanthisGG]

I have seen many women like this, actually. Super fake, super heavy makeup, skirts barely covering their parts. Loud, oblivious to the rest of the world. They are more common here in Houston than in my home town, which was full of pretty down to earth folk. But little daddy's girls who have been protected and have felt entitled their whole lives, and never taught to have any sort of respect for anyone else, who live in a cloud where they think of nothing but themselves... Oh yeah, there are lots of real women like this. Or also, someone who grew up poor and envied the sort of life that those little girls with ponies and new porsches had, and wands to project the image that they are one of those types for some reason, because they envy it so much. Not saying that's not messed up, but it happens to people of both genders. They're not my friends, they're not yours, but they are out there. I've also met men like that. They had self image issues, severe ones. This person probably had no idea how they were really presenting themselves. And probably too, would have been very self righteous and defensive if anyone had said anything. I don't think anyone really wants to have an annoying personality, so I think that most of the time, they're probably unaware that they're being annoying and give them the benefit of the doubt, unless, like in this case, they were wasting my time. Or like the time that I was in line at a fast food place and the line was really long and some really annoying, self-important young teenaged girls walked right past the line and went right to the front and ordered. Everyone let them. I was outraged. They shoved their way through and didn't even say "excuse me" or anything. And I do mean "shoved". With their short skirts and long hair flipping the whole way. The only reason I didn't stop them was because there seemed to be some sort of emergency, they were angry looking (there's another, more impolite word than angry, but I'll be nice), (overly made-up, too). But there was no emergency. Just rudeness. They just had silently shouted to everyone else in line that no one else here was as important as they were. And didn't care. Only the women even noticed. The men were too busy looking at their behinds. And when they got to the front, the guy just took their order as if he hadn't noticed what just happened. Smiling the whole time, because when they got to the counter, they flipped their hair even more. And became little mewling kittens in persona because that's how a cute little daddy's girl always gets what she wants. Experience has trained them so.

And in certain circles, experience may have even trained our rude person here at the Verizon store too...

Sorry for the vent. I don't know if I've ever had a chance to vent about that experience, but I just wanted to demonstrate the type of girl that this man may have been trying to emulate perhaps without realizing it.

[YorkshireRose]

I am on my way to a fund raising event for Cancer Research and you know what? We all have to go dressed up in drag! I am really uncomfortable about this as I never normally wear womens' clothes or wear make up, plus I am a single guy so I don't have an SO to ask for advice.

Ok well I left it to the last minute and bought some cheap clothes from a charity store and bought some cheap make up......What a day! My phone has packed in and and I am now running late. Quick shower and I throw on my outfit. It looks kinda skanky, but hey! If it helps me raise much needed money for cancer research then I can live with that..Ok ok ok..thats the make up troweled on. OK quick stop at the Verzion store then to the event......

[kimdl93]

I doubt that the individual intended to make a mockery of women. There are a couple of things to consider. One, this individual probably didn't have a lot of practice with make-up and has a very limited wardrobe. And like many of us, she probably had some very strongly ingrained but slightly off-target notions about what was feminine and attractive. So she may have chosen clothes that she felt looked good on other women, but to an objective observer, simply didn't work for her. And sometimes, we don't see ourselves accurately. It can work both ways - sometimes I hate the way I look...and other times, I maybe be too generous in my self appraisal.

[Julogden]

I have seen GGs on this site take great offense to posts from CDers who complain about women going out in public with chipped nail polish or looking less than feminine. I think we should afford the CDers the same courtesy we ask of them, and not post complaints about the way they choose to dress in public.
Thank you, Mimi, you've summed it up quite nicely. :)


I personally was not bashing Kitty and I respect her opinions and those of others. I was disagreeing with her.

Allie brings up an important point: disagreeing with someone, including our GG members, is not bashing. Anyone posting their opinion, including our GG members, should be prepared for responses expressing opinions that disagree with theirs.

Carol