Does a TS have to have GID?

[Kate T]

A recent thread (What is a Transexual) got me thinking back to definitions and meanings.

What I found odd in that particular thread was that the OP had identified herself as TS and then yet was forced / encouraged by her therapist to consider what she "defined" as TS. Initially I thought "gee, surely you should know what TS means if you are going to call yourself TS" but on further thinking I am not sure the answer is exactly that obvious.

Does a TS by definition also have GID? The term GID also grinds a little bit on me. The name implies there is a pathology with ones gender identity. But the problem is not really ones gender identity, but ones physical characteristics. The way I see it it is more of a body dysmorphia (i.e. the body does not much the mental representation of oneself).

Does someone need to have the INTENT (i.e. would do so if possible) to have SRS in order to be TS. I would argue that if someone has GID then they must have the intent to undergo SRS. What then of a "full time" CD who presents, works etc. as female but has no intention to undergo SRS and has no body dysmorphia (i.e. is happy with their physical characteristics). Are they TS?

The final question I have is what role does society play in the development and definition of GID? Imagine for a moment that we had a society where gender roles had become redundant. One was not treated as male / female but merely as human with no gender qualification. BUT there were still physical differences between the sexes. Would you still feel GID? I am guessing some would as like I said earlier, I think there is an issue with the mental picture of the body versus the physical reality, but maybe I am wrong?

It is highly likely that the answers to these questions are spectacularly obvious to someone who is TS, however not being so I would ask for your indulgence, assistance and thoughts.

[ReineD]

I'd just like to point to the WPATH definition (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions):


Transsexual: Adjective (often applied by the medical profession) to describe individuals who seek to change or who have changed their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics through femininizing or masculinizing medical interventions (hormones and/or surgery), typically accompanied by a permanent change in gender role.

GID is a medical term. Some people are advocating to replace the term "Gender Identity Disorder" with "Gender Incongruence".

Some people identify as TSs and have no intention of having SRS for a variety of reasons: financial, medical, age, or perhaps they're married and their wives object. Some M2Fs whose gender identity does not match their birth sex prefer to refer to themselves as women, and not TS, even if they haven't had SRS.

There's a great deal of argument between the various groups as to who is TS vs. true TS vs. woman.

And last, gender roles have changed considerably, and TSs still have GID. I don't think an innate sense of gender has anything to do with cultural gender norms.

I hope you don't mind my opinion, even though I'm not TS.

[Andie Elisabeth]

There is a warning site http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html
The last one is TS twice, M2F2M. Therefore he doesn't have GID, just his therapist was/is an a****le.

[Rianna Humble]

In addition to Reine's great reply, I would like to add my :2c: although I have to apologise for how long the reply has become.

I would like to preface my remarks by saying what I understand to be the difference between Gender Dysphoria and Gender Identity Disorder as they affect a Trans person since this will colour my replies to the questions in the OP.

Both Gender Dysphoria and Gender Identity Disorder are medical conditions. I believe that I have had Gender Dysphoria for most of my life although the intensity has varied with time. When the dysphoria became so acute that it impaired my ability to function on a day-to-day basis, I believe that it turned into Gender Identity Disorder and this is the point at which I knew I had to act on my dysphoria or end my life.

Based upon my own experience, I believe I was born TS but that I did not experience GID until relatively recently. So on that basis I would say that a TS does not have GID by definition, but I would say that GID is probably what drives those of us who need to transition.

I do not see GID as a pathology about my Gender Identity, rather a disorder driven by my Gender Identity. I did struggle for a while with the notion of having a disorder, but a very helpful GG on these forums explained to me that in medical terms it is the disorder which will be treated because it impairs my ability to function.

Whilst I agree that surgery will be one part of treating my GID, it is not the only part and so I disagree that this is merely body dysmorphia.

At the risk of providing TMI, it was not body dysmorphia that made me unable to see myself in the role of a husband with everything that such a role entails. Neither was that what caused me as a child to dream of my wedding and to see myself as the bride rather than the groom.

I do not believe that you need intent to do anything in order to be born transsexual. Indeed it would be interesting to see how someone proves that a newborn child has the intent to undergo procedures about which they will only learn much later in life.

I do understand that a small section of the membership (including our resident Grinch) believes you have to have the desire for Gender Confirmation Surgery before they will accept how you were born. Fortunately, they are not the arbiters.

On the other hand, the sort of person that you have described who although they may present and work dressed is content to be physically male is not necessarily TS although they may be suffering from some degree of Gender Dysphoria.

In My Not So Humble Opinion, society has little or nothing to do with Gender Dysphoria or with Gender Identity Disorder. To go back to my earlier illustration, my inability to envisage myself as a husband rather than a wife in intimate circumstances had nothing to do with society's current definition of gender roles and everything to do with my innate sense of self.

Incidentally, I do not feel disorder, I experience it. I do, however, feel dysphoria although that is reducing as I progress through transition. In my opinion, what I feel and how that affects my ability to function in daily life also has nothing to do with conditioning or with a mental image of my body.

I believe that my experience of GID can almost be summed up with the words I spoke to my doctor when I first sought medical help "I used to tell myself no-one would want an ugly woman. Now I would rather die an ugly woman than spend one more day pretending to be the man I never was".

[Kathryn Martin]

Adina, this is one of the most pointed and intelligent questions that has been asked on this forum. The question of "intent to bring the body into congruence" has been at the heart of the discussion surrounding transsexuality since it's inception through the book by Harry Benjamin, "the Transsexual Phenomenon". It has made it's way into the inventory of mental disorders as an element of definition for the diagnosis of the condition. It is the dividing line between transsexuality and gender variance.

The condition TS persons have, means in effect not "gender" identity disorder, because every one of us will tell you that we were born in our correct gender but with a body that does not match. What we experience is a "hormonal and reproductive tract dysmorphic disorder". In this sense gender identity disorder is a complete misnomer in that there is little or no confusion about gender for transsexuals.

The concept of "gender identity disorder" is a complete social construct in this sense. The experience of persons not having our condition is of sex and gender being one. Gender and Sex are variously used as one and there is no differentiation between the two. For this reason often descriptive terms used in the literature are not reflective of a TS persons actual experience.

The question by the therapist is in fact a trick question, (yes they always do ask us trick questions) to determine if we meet the four elements of the DSM 4 :

A. A strong persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). Qualifier: In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.

B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. Qualifier: In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.

C. The disturbance is not concurrent with physical intersex condition.

D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

It is the element of D that qualifies this as a "disorder" in that it causes a "disturbance" with "significant distress and impairment" in the self experience of the person with this condition.

To address your last question. There are clear biological differences between the sexes. The social contract under which our society lives currently allows for the distinction between men and women that are rights based. These are historically rights based constructs rather than innate or inherent differences. (see women voting rights etc. which revolved around the question whether women were persons under the law) . If you were to dissolve these historical structures and simply called everyone human (which would be highly desirable) the dysmorphic experience by TS persons would not be alleviated because it is based in a physical in-congruence. Much of the "disturbance; distress; impairment" issues would resolve because societal expectations and pressures to conform would end. Consequently, TS would no longer be a "disorder" and could be treated much like any other congenital birth defect, that is it would be fixed and the person can move on.

It is important to understand that society's conceptualization of TS as a "lifestyle" choice is rooted in a "rights based" approach. It is our greatest enemy in becoming whole.



A recent thread (What is a Transexual) got me thinking back to definitions and meanings.

What I found odd in that particular thread was that the OP had identified herself as TS and then yet was forced / encouraged by her therapist to consider what she "defined" as TS. Initially I thought "gee, surely you should know what TS means if you are going to call yourself TS" but on further thinking I am not sure the answer is exactly that obvious.

Does a TS by definition also have GID? The term GID also grinds a little bit on me. The name implies there is a pathology with ones gender identity. But the problem is not really ones gender identity, but ones physical characteristics. The way I see it it is more of a body dysmorphia (i.e. the body does not much the mental representation of oneself).

Does someone need to have the INTENT (i.e. would do so if possible) to have SRS in order to be TS. I would argue that if someone has GID then they must have the intent to undergo SRS. What then of a "full time" CD who presents, works etc. as female but has no intention to undergo SRS and has no body dysmorphia (i.e. is happy with their physical characteristics). Are they TS?

The final question I have is what role does society play in the development and definition of GID? Imagine for a moment that we had a society where gender roles had become redundant. One was not treated as male / female but merely as human with no gender qualification. BUT there were still physical differences between the sexes. Would you still feel GID? I am guessing some would as like I said earlier, I think there is an issue with the mental picture of the body versus the physical reality, but maybe I am wrong?

It is highly likely that the answers to these questions are spectacularly obvious to someone who is TS, however not being so I would ask for your indulgence, assistance and thoughts.

[Aprilrain]

Some great responses here! To the title question, does a TS have to have GID. I believe that by the time someone can admit to themselves they are TS then they have GID. It's kinda like the question does a tree falling in the woods make a sound if no one is there to hear it? What is sound? It is waves traveling through some media like air. Wether or not there is a device, like an ear, present that can detect those waves does not affect the fact that the waves are traveling through the media. It matters not if I "know" I'm TS or "know" that I have GID, it's there! Once I finally tune into it it becomes clear that it has been there for a long time!

[LeaP]

Psychology has recognized variations of transsexuality for over 50 years that include some who do not want SRS or, in the words of the old Benjamin scale, where it is "not indicated." This concept is well-established in the health care literature and doesn't seem to be particularly controversial - except among some transsexuals!

[Lesley_Roberta]

I dislike 'disorder' for the same reason a homosexual would dislike being told they have a disorder.

Lesley (me) is not a sickness that Leslie (him) can seek a cure for as if it is just a sickness Leslie has.

I am not a sickness damn it, or a malfunction or in this case a 'disorder'.

I am confused, and I do wish to be given informed help, but not by someone trying to 'fix' me as if was something that was broken.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

GID and GD are changeable terms to describe something that most of us experience...they are words that help us and others communicate the experience that so many of us share..


Common sense is in order
..Attack problems from the perspective of what can improve your own quality of life...know the state of play...the words and definitions are out there...they are not rules to follow or be broken...they are guidelines that exist and by navigating through them, you can figure out how to best improve your quality of life...

If it helps you to laser focus on this stuff, then you should do it. ... if working out terms and definitions comforts you (which makes sense) then drill down on this....
But be self aware at all times.. and understand that there are strong forces that are not looking out for you that determine some of these words and definitions

... and if someday they change the words around to something you agree with more, that does little or nothing to really improve your quality of life..
make sure you don't let the tail wag you..

[Rianna Humble]

I dislike 'disorder' for the same reason a homosexual would dislike being told they have a disorder.

If you do not experience significant impairment in your day to day life due to your body being in conflict with your gender, then you probably do not suffer Gender Identity Disorder. I would also hasard a guess that you do not need to transition at this point in time either.

On the other hand, I do have a disorder that needs to be fixed - that is why I am trying to lose enough weight to qualify for Gender Confirmation Surgery.

[Bree-asaurus]

I was under the impression that Gender Identity Disorder and Transsexualism were one in the same.

If you don't feel like your internal gender doesn't match your external gender... how can you be transsexual?

A common misconception by a lot of people is that to be transsexual or to have GID means that you had to do something (HRT, GRS, etc.) to gain such a title. If you are transsexual, you are transsexual at birth. What you do about it doesn't change how you were born.

If you feel like you're a woman mentally, but you are a man physically, and you're totally okay with that and happy living as a man... then you are probably a little confused...


I hope you don't mind my opinion, even though I'm not TS.

I personally find your input to be quite helpful to many of the TS conversations here. Some people have a better understanding of things they don't personally deal with... they can empathize to great extents. Just like my therapist: he is gay, not transsexual, and while he admits all the time that he doesn't KNOW what I'm going through, he has a pretty darn good grasp on the idea and I respect him very much.

[Sally24]

If you are transsexual, you are transsexual at birth. What you do about it doesn't change how you were born.
I was hoping that someone would agree with me on this part. If you have this condition/ability/disorder/gift/any phrase that doesn't make you mad, then regardless of what you do about it, you are TS. Transition and SRS are things that only some transexuals choose to do. There are many ways to deal with being trans and NONE of them are wrong if they work for you!

[Bree-asaurus]

I was hoping that someone would agree with me on this part. If you have this condition/ability/disorder/gift/any phrase that doesn't make you mad, then regardless of what you do about it, you are TS. Transition and SRS are things that only some transexuals choose to do. There are many ways to deal with being trans and NONE of them are wrong if they work for you!

I think we need to shout louder Sally... there are so many people here that have no idea what they're talking about, but think that know exactly what they're talking about, and love to spread their uneducated opinions like it's gospel.

You could say that my opinion is just another opinion from a moron... but since I happen to have this disorder (or whatever), I feel that I have a LITTLE inkling as to what's really going on...

[Anna Lorree]

I personally find your input to be quite helpful to many of the TS conversations here. Some people have a better understanding of things they don't personally deal with... they can empathize to great extents. Just like my therapist: he is gay, not transsexual, and while he admits all the time that he doesn't KNOW what I'm going through, he has a pretty darn good grasp on the idea and I respect him very much.

That's funny, my therapist is a lesbian.

As to the OP, perhaps I can help you to better understand why I authored the post about defining TS. My therapist asked me if I was TS. I countered the question with some verbal evasion, so she asked me to define being TS. I gave my definition, then she reminded me that from my own stated history, I have already met my own criteria for being TS. I asked the question here because that therapy session made me wonder how other people defined this condition.

There was an order of events within which the entire sequence made sense.

Anna

[Debglam]

This stuff is so complicated and maybe, just maybe they will discover the root cause and your (our) question will be answered. Maybe I am muddying the waters but I have had GID to some degree my entire life and I am fairly certain that I am NOT TS. I knew I wanted to be a girl in 2nd grade and have felt uncomfortable in my birth gender to some degree my entire life. I guess it is a matter of degree though because I am rather comfortable where I am right now. I consider myself to be bi-gendered.

I agree with your feelings regarding pathology - I don't think there is anything wrong with any of us BUT!!!!! If it is not a disorder or illness then the insurance companies aren't going to pay for any treatment. I don't know the answer but I would hate to see the availability or affordability of HRT, GRS, etc. be made any more difficult for my sisters that need it.

Debby

[Inna]

LOL, I think it is way simpler then complicated. GID Gender Identity Dis...............in short, genetic body sexual characteristic does not fit expressed gender of the individual. Hence, trans=indicating change, transfer or conversion, accross, and sexual= relating to sex, sexuality, or the sexual organs.

So GID=TransSexual.

When GID is alleviated through therapy leading through feeling of conformity, one body one mind, or in this case gender, resulting in person regaining balance within gender confine, such person is no longer trans but of inherent, original to his or hers brain gender.

Such congruity can result by various stages of image modification, such as presentation, surgery, speech, ect. Some will be happy with passing, others with full body transformation. But as I have written in a previous post today, speaking with my therapist whose experience in the field of transgenderism is acutely vast, those who decide not to transition, do not gain release from GID symptoms.

[Bree-asaurus]

LOL, I think it is way simpler then complicated. GID Gender Identity Dis...............in short, genetic body sexual characteristic does not fit expressed gender of the individual. Hence, trans=indicating change, transfer or conversion, accross, and sexual= relating to sex, sexuality, or the sexual organs.

So GID=TransSexual.

When GID is alleviated through therapy leading through feeling of conformity, one body on mind, or in this case gender, resulting in person regaining balance within gender confine, such person is no longer trans but of inherent, original to his or hers brain gender.

Such congruity can result by various stages of image modification, such as presentation, surgery, speach, ect. Some will be happy with passing, others with full body transformation. But as I have written in a previous post today, speaking with my therapist whos experience in the field of transgenderism is acutely vast, those who decide not to transition, do not gain release from GID symptoms.

It's actually really simple once you figure it out (if you are a transsexual). Until you figure it out, it can be confusing as all hell lol.

[LeaP]

It's actually really simple once you figure it out (if you are a transsexual). Until you figure it out, it can be confusing as all hell lol.

It's true, though I never would have thought so.

[ELIZABETH46]

i know i am a TG, not a TS, by definitions.
but now you ladies are questioning GID, a "desorder" by definition, in relation to TS only.
so, my question now is......does this "desorder" ( GID ) also apply to TG ??

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I know folks quote the DSM, or other resources...but don't we all know better?

guidelines are important, but only as starting points...i never got into what it was called...

i knew that i was obsessed with my future plan to live as a woman, i knew i felt sexual pleasure around transformation, i felt attracted to women, but was a total failure as a man...i felt vaguely uncomfortable as a guy, and constantly felt like a fraud "why don't i feel like them????" i wondered....over the years, it became more and more of an obsession...it dominated my inner dialogue so much that i didn't notice...there was no other thought in my mind...NO OTHER THOUGHT meant that i never had the thought that there was something going on...

finally i started to obsess about transsexuals...lynn conway...cocinellle, andrea james...the possibility of their lives haunted me...and then i started to feel empty trapped and isolated in my own life... it was a day by day death by a thousand thoughts..

and then one day it was just too much...and i started focusing less on everything else, and more on what am i gonna do about all this...that was fourish years ago... it took me years of divorce, loss, humiliation, money, pain...but i did what i felt i had to do...words and definitions did not help me.. labels did nothing to comfort me..i ignored the dsm, i ignored WPATH, i learned as i experienced it..

the only "article" that i used was anne vitale's 3 pager on gender development...the reason was the when i read that, I "just knew"..

so to me this is an existential problem, it is singularly unsuited to definitions, rules and words on a page....

and its something where your best quality of life lies in that moment when you "just know" ...if the guides help you get there, then i think thats great, but in my experience, the strength and courage required of us usually comes from within

[Aprilrain]

i know i am a TG, not a TS, by definitions.
but now you ladies are questioning GID, a "desorder" by definition, in relation to TS only.
so, my question now is......does this "desorder" ( GID ) also apply to TG ??

What is a "TG"?? Now we are really mincing words! There is no such thing, TG, if it means anything at all, is just a broad sweeping word that attempts to scoop up all gender variant people into one tidy category. That being said it has become the medias pet word for transsexuals so in that sense it has replaced TS in the mainstream media.
To say you are a "TG" is to say you are everything under the sun from a CD to a gender queer to a TS (as far as the media is concerned) personally I liked it better when there were CDs and TSes there are lots of different ways to be a CD and there are varying degrees of what to do about being TS from nothing to full transition.

[Julia_in_Pa]

April,

You nailed it concerning the term TG.
Saying your TG is like saying you live on planet earth.

Those in the " transgender " camp have attempted and continue to attempt to include TS and IS people under that umbrella term for their political and social gain.
It's more than a little absurd to think that a fetish dresser or cross dresser has anything whatsoever in common with a transsexual or intersexed person when it comes to their needs concerning medical, social and political arenas.

This is not an " us " vs " Them" commentary but fact.

Professional therapy and a medical diagnosis of GID will greatly assist those that question exactly who and what they are when it comes to being TS.



Julia

[LeaP]

Terms change over time. I don't really have any problem figuring out what most people mean by the context. As April said, TG is the media's pet phrase for TS, but we know exactly what they mean. Most of the usage on the forum is either the umbrella meaning or some version of genderqueer (a term I personally detest, but that's a generational thing). A few just prefer TG to TS, though I'm not sure why. Syntactically, I find the usage "I'm a TG" odd, as the word in any of it's forms is an adjective.

Julia - I agree with you on the real differences and, in fact, recently posted about them in detail in another thread. With a couple of notable exceptions, though, people don't advocate for the umbrella term here out of politics. It seems to come from some level of cross-gender feeling and identification, even from the male-identified crossdressers.

[elizabethamy]

There's a lot to learn in this thread. While we nitpick (sometimes) over terminology, the truth is that we all (at one point or another) desperately want some handbook or road map or template to attach to our lives so that we know who we are, what name defines us, and what we are supposed to do, in what order and at what time.

Wouldn't it be great if this worked that way? If anything in life worked that way?

"Sometimes the best map will not guide you
You can't see what's round the bend
Sometimes the road leads to dark places
Sometimes the darkness is your friend..." --- Bruce Cockburn ("Pacing the Cage")

[LeaP]

There's a lot to learn in this thread. While we nitpick (sometimes) over terminology, the truth is that we all (at one point or another) desperately want some handbook or road map or template to attach to our lives so that we know who we are, what name defines us, and what we are supposed to do, in what order and at what time.

Wouldn't it be great if this worked that way? If anything in life worked that way?


Not for me. I would prefer it to be less planned than it already is.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

With a couple of notable exceptions, though, people don't advocate for the umbrella term here out of politics. It seems to come from some level of cross-gender feeling and identification, even from the male-identified crossdressers.

This idea is cause of much friction around here..

and i think most of it is quite unintended... you have to forgive a crossdressing person wanting to be and believing to be part of a broader sisterhood that includes transsexual women, and you have to forgive a transsexual for knowing how different she is to a guy that crossdresses, especially given how much is given up in transition..

Folks on the outside compare us all easily and mostly pay us little mind, lumping us all under simplistic umbrellas...including umbrellas much worse than TG...perverts? mentally ill? ...

In this world, being allies and friends of each other while celebrating our differences seems like the best answer to me...

[Julia_in_Pa]

I fully agree with you Lea concerning having two identifiers.

TS which I also include IS people in and TG where all other gender variant people exist.



Terms change over time. I don't really have any problem figuring out what most people mean by the context. As April said, TG is the media's pet phrase for TS, but we know exactly what they mean. Most of the usage on the forum is either the umbrella meaning or some version of genderqueer (a term I personally detest, but that's a generational thing). A few just prefer TG to TS, though I'm not sure why. Syntactically, I find the usage "I'm a TG" odd, as the word in any of it's forms is an adjective.

Julia - I agree with you on the real differences and, in fact, recently posted about them in detail in another thread. With a couple of notable exceptions, though, people don't advocate for the umbrella term here out of politics. It seems to come from some level of cross-gender feeling and identification, even from the male-identified crossdressers.

[melissaK]

Lots a repurposed electrons in this thread. Mostly to good effect too. We 've certainly all invested a lot of time in trying to understand ourselves.

The OP questions if we all have GID, and I'd say HELL NO. I'd say the world has wanted us to believe we have some "disorder" about iur gender but I suggest none of use do. We are variants from a larger population but that's not a disorder. In plant or animal taxonomy we'd have our differences celebrated with a 'varietal' name. The people who label us disordered because we vary from the norm would call all yellow roses 'disordered' because they aren't red roses.

Kaitlyn Michelle dropped Ann Vitales name. Ann, one the most experienced commentators out there, posits we suffer from be repressed by society, from not being able to express our variation. She has crafted the a acronym GEDAD - gender expression depravation anxiety disorder. She uses the word disorder, but only to discuss the stress we feel because society , or ourselves, don't let us live as we want.

Hence Kaitlyns existentialist comments. Existentialism is a way of thinking from the individual's point of view, not from the collectives point of view. (correct me if I'm off to much Kaitlyn)

Hugs,
'lissa

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Lots a repurposed electrons in this thread. Mostly to good effect too. We 've certainly all invested a lot of time in trying to understand ourselves.

The OP questions if we all have GID, and I'd say HELL NO. I'd say the world has wanted us to believe we have some "disorder" about iur gender but I suggest none of use do. We are variants from a larger population but that's not a disorder. In plant or animal taxonomy we'd have our differences celebrated with a 'varietal' name. The people who label us disordered because we vary from the norm would call all yellow roses 'disordered' because they aren't red roses.

Kaitlyn Michelle dropped Ann Vitales name. Ann, one the most experienced commentators out there, posits we suffer from be repressed by society, from not being able to express our variation. She has crafted the a acronym GEDAD - gender expression depravation anxiety disorder. She uses the word disorder, but only to discuss the stress we feel because society , or ourselves, don't let us live as we want.

Hence Kaitlyns existentialist comments. Existentialism is a way of thinking from the individual's point of view, not from the collectives point of view. (correct me if I'm off to much Kaitlyn)

Hugs,
'lissa

My main man...Soren Kierkegaard......outside of having what i view the greatest and most descriptive book title ever.. (Fear and trembling and sickness unto Death)...he was highly interesting to me in my liberal arts days...since i studied math at a liberal arts college, this was jammed down my throat..hehe

Check out the wiki on him...basically his point of view is where i am coming from

The money quote on the wiki is..
"he posited that it is the individual who is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and for living life passionately and sincerely,[7][8] even in view of its many existential obstacles and distractions.[9]"

how incredibly apt for us!!! in every way...

[melissaK]

Well I tried to edit my post and my smart phone ate it. Kaitlyn had preserved it though.

I accidentally garnered a minor in philosophy in college, which I realize was as much about figuring out myself and my gender issues as much as anything. Some people took a lot of psyche classes, i took philosophy i guess Theres a lot of overlap, especially where Existentconcepts address concepts of 'authenticity' and the 'conscious self'. Not sure the philosophy degree helped me through my gender issues, I spent plenty of time running away . . .

Hugs,
'lissa

[Maddie22]

I'm not in total favor of cookie cutter definitions and or cookie cutter ways of dealing with our issues. Everyone is different and to mold a person into one category or one way of "treating the disorder" is unfair. Nothing is black or white, there is way too much grey area in between. There may be really dark grey's and really light grey's, but either way it is still in between.

To start lets look at the cis-born hetero male and female. The differences between them are tremendous. There are feminine males and feminine females. There are masculine males and masculine females. In western society (and in fact most societies) we treat masculinity as a premium over femininity. We allow our females to cross over to the masculine areas of life more than we allow males to cross over to feminine characteristics before potential societal repercussions occur. This includes everything from clothing, careers to hobbies. Hetero cis-males who take care of their appearance and enjoy feminine activities are subjected to being ridiculed and often are thrown into the "gay, sissy" boat and have their masculinity questioned. If you've ever been on a dating site, you'll see females state they don't want someone who takes care of themselves and who spends as much time getting ready as they do because the females want "A Man." You find this less coming from the male spectrum, as many males will be happy with a female that is more masculine in dress and appearance or "Not high maintenance." Point being there is more variance of what a hetero cis-male likes than what a hetero cis-female likes. This begs the question of what is masculinity and femininity, and are we confusing what we expect masculinity to be and what it should be same being said for femininity?

It appears that by categorically speaking, there are more male crossdressers than female crossdressers. If femininity was treated with premium more so than masculinity would this be true? We also see a wide spectrum of crossdressers just like cis-males and cis-females. Some are very "extreme or intense" crossdressers and some are more fetishistic. Some are able to live part-time, in the closet, out, partially out, full time and everywhere in between. Some crossdressers start at a very young age and some start at a much older age. How much does society play into why people crossdress and how much of it is being born that way? If they are born that way where is the difference in chemical and/or physical make up between being transsexual, being cis-gender or even gay?

Just like differences in crossdressing, so are differences between being transsexual. Some trans people never get bottom surgery. Are they any more or less transsexual than someone who does get bottom surgery? There are also trans-females who are more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt and continuing their previously "male" activities (Google the Canadian Mountain Biker Michelle Dumaresq) and others who are much more feminine and change their interests to being more of inherent female interests. Is one more transsexual than the other? We also are seeing much younger transsexuals (YouTube the young transsexual Jazz sometime) and we of course continue to see others that discover who they are much later in life. Is one any more transsexual than the other? Why are some able to pin-point what is different from such a young point in their life, and others it takes much longer to figure that out? Can GID develop over time then? Perhaps there are different degrees of GID even?

We see people who are in-between genders as well. Perhaps they are bi-gender, genderqueer, androgynous and anywhere or everywhere in-between. They are included under the "Transgender" umbrella as well. There are variances in their appearance, interests and when they discover who they are as well. Is it ok to discount their struggle and to assume that they just want to be non-conforming? Or just like anyone else, can we legitimize their struggle and understand that they are born that way too?

This leads to my takes of the original question and some of other questions that have arose during this thread (What is GID? Can you be TS and not have GID? How about GD? Should GID be considered a disorder? Should we have the terms TS and TG? How far away are TS's and CD's?) My view points are these: I hate that GID is considered a disorder and consequently a Transsexual is often stated to have GID. Disorder has a negative connotation, and homosexuality used to be considered a disorder as well, which we all know it isn't. That being stated I understand that it being labeled a disorder allows it to be sometimes covered under health insurance. I think as humanity in general, we play the nature versus nurture cards to our own individual advantages and in-turn play them to discredit others when it fact for everyone's situation there is a mix of each to some degree. Everyone's gender issues, questions, identity and needs are going to be different for different reasoning's as well.

As much as I hate labels, I think having an umbrella term of Transgender is ok for both transsexuals, crossdressers, androgynous, bi-gendered and everything in between is great. I believe that being a part of the LGBTQ community is fantastic. Why are we so against helping others out with their struggles when we perceived them to be different, even though it might help our struggles along the way, and even more importantly it's just the right thing to do? Martin Luther King didn't just fight for African-Americans, but for all humans regardless of race, gender, culture or socio-economic background. We all bleed red blood, we all need to breath and eat and we all die. We have much more in common with each other than we all realize. The more we help each other to fight for equality and realize that everyone struggles then the less we will be labeled. Then we can understand that my key of mental and physical changes that I need to feel right about myself and to find happiness is not the same for you.

That is my rant on this subject for today. Sorry for going so long, and I hope I stayed on subject enough!

[Bree-asaurus]

I'm not in total favor of cookie cutter definitions and or cookie cutter ways of dealing with our issues. Everyone is different and to mold a person into one category or one way of "treating the disorder" is unfair. Nothing is black or white, there is way too much grey area in between. There may be really dark grey's and really light grey's, but either way it is still in between.

To start lets look at the cis-born hetero male and female. The differences between them are tremendous. There are feminine males and feminine females. There are masculine males and masculine females. In western society (and in fact most societies) we treat masculinity as a premium over femininity. We allow our females to cross over to the masculine areas of life more than we allow males to cross over to feminine characteristics before potential societal repercussions occur. This includes everything from clothing, careers to hobbies. Hetero cis-males who take care of their appearance and enjoy feminine activities are subjected to being ridiculed and often are thrown into the "gay, sissy" boat and have their masculinity questioned. If you've ever been on a dating site, you'll see females state they don't want someone who takes care of themselves and who spends as much time getting ready as they do because the females want "A Man." You find this less coming from the male spectrum, as many males will be happy with a female that is more masculine in dress and appearance or "Not high maintenance." Point being there is more variance of what a hetero cis-male likes than what a hetero cis-female likes. This begs the question of what is masculinity and femininity, and are we confusing what we expect masculinity to be and what it should be same being said for femininity?

It appears that by categorically speaking, there are more male crossdressers than female crossdressers. If femininity was treated with premium more so than masculinity would this be true? We also see a wide spectrum of crossdressers just like cis-males and cis-females. Some are very "extreme or intense" crossdressers and some are more fetishistic. Some are able to live part-time, in the closet, out, partially out, full time and everywhere in between. Some crossdressers start at a very young age and some start at a much older age. How much does society play into why people crossdress and how much of it is being born that way? If they are born that way where is the difference in chemical and/or physical make up between being transsexual, being cis-gender or even gay?

Just like differences in crossdressing, so are differences between being transsexual. Some trans people never get bottom surgery. Are they any more or less transsexual than someone who does get bottom surgery? There are also trans-females who are more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt and continuing their previously "male" activities (Google the Canadian Mountain Biker Michelle Dumaresq) and others who are much more feminine and change their interests to being more of inherent female interests. Is one more transsexual than the other? We also are seeing much younger transsexuals (YouTube the young transsexual Jazz sometime) and we of course continue to see others that discover who they are much later in life. Is one any more transsexual than the other? Why are some able to pin-point what is different from such a young point in their life, and others it takes much longer to figure that out? Can GID develop over time then? Perhaps there are different degrees of GID even?

We see people who are in-between genders as well. Perhaps they are bi-gender, genderqueer, androgynous and anywhere or everywhere in-between. They are included under the "Transgender" umbrella as well. There are variances in their appearance, interests and when they discover who they are as well. Is it ok to discount their struggle and to assume that they just want to be non-conforming? Or just like anyone else, can we legitimize their struggle and understand that they are born that way too?

This leads to my takes of the original question and some of other questions that have arose during this thread (What is GID? Can you be TS and not have GID? How about GD? Should GID be considered a disorder? Should we have the terms TS and TG? How far away are TS's and CD's?) My view points are these: I hate that GID is considered a disorder and consequently a Transsexual is often stated to have GID. Disorder has a negative connotation, and homosexuality used to be considered a disorder as well, which we all know it isn't. That being stated I understand that it being labeled a disorder allows it to be sometimes covered under health insurance. I think as humanity in general, we play the nature versus nurture cards to our own individual advantages and in-turn play them to discredit others when it fact for everyone's situation there is a mix of each to some degree. Everyone's gender issues, questions, identity and needs are going to be different for different reasoning's as well.

As much as I hate labels, I think having an umbrella term of Transgender is ok for both transsexuals, crossdressers, androgynous, bi-gendered and everything in between is great. I believe that being a part of the LGBTQ community is fantastic. Why are we so against helping others out with their struggles when we perceived them to be different, even though it might help our struggles along the way, and even more importantly it's just the right thing to do? Martin Luther King didn't just fight for African-Americans, but for all humans regardless of race, gender, culture or socio-economic background. We all bleed red blood, we all need to breath and eat and we all die. We have much more in common with each other than we all realize. The more we help each other to fight for equality and realize that everyone struggles then the less we will be labeled. Then we can understand that my key of mental and physical changes that I need to feel right about myself and to find happiness is not the same for you.

That is my rant on this subject for today. Sorry for going so long, and I hope I stayed on subject enough!

Wow... you go off on so many tangents here... and you're repeating a lot of what is common knowledge. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here because you are saying so much.

And as much as you hate labels and want to rant against them, it IS sometimes necessary to label certain groups of people with common issues because we CAN treat them using specific methods. You CAN'T treat a CD the same way you treat a TS. Their issues are ENTIRELY different.

If you don't feel the need to label yourself, that's fine. Some people have issues or disorders that do require that they are categorized or labeled.

Of course categories and labels aren't perfect. Of course there are people that will fall in-between. But we are better off with the categories than without. At least with categories, we can more easily treat the majority of people who need help.

Can we stay on the subject of Transsexuals and GID now?

[LeaP]

I'm not in total favor of cookie cutter definitions ...

Just like differences in crossdressing, so are differences between being transsexual. ... Is one any more transsexual than the other? Why are some able to pin-point what is different from such a young point in their life, and others it takes much longer to figure that out? Can GID develop over time then? Perhaps there are different degrees of GID even?

This leads to my takes of the original question and some of other questions that have arose during this thread (What is GID? Can you be TS and not have GID? How about GD? Should GID be considered a disorder? Should we have the terms TS and TG? How far away are TS's and CD's?) My view points are these: I hate that GID is considered a disorder ...

As much as I hate labels, I think having an umbrella term of Transgender is ok

.. I believe that being a part of the LGBTQ community is fantastic. Why are we so against helping others out with their struggles when we perceived them to be different, even though it might help our struggles along the way, and even more importantly it's just the right thing to do? ...


Ok, picking a few topical points in your response:

You don't like definitions but you like "transgender"? In a way that makes sense, as the term is so broad it almost has no meaning.

The psychological literature has recognized gradations in transsexuality for a very long time. I've not taken that in the sense of being more or less transsexual so much as primarily involving different coping mechanisms to deal with dysphoria.

GID manifests itself in a variety of ways over a person's lifetime until transition when, for most, it ends. The conscious apprehension of dysphoria as such may not be there until that person starts seeing issues in terms of gender. It doesn't develop over time in the sense of suddenly developing symptoms like catching a cold. You don't suddenly come down with transsexuality.

GID is not considered a psychological disorder by most clinicians. The term is considered stigmatizing by many people, however, as is having the diagnosis in the DSM instead of being medicalized as a physical disorder in the usual fashion. This issue is harder to deal with than some credit, because psych professionals will inevitably be in the therapy and diagnostic path in a major way because of the many manifestations of dysphoria, the psychological and emotional consequences of dealing with it once identified, and because of the resulting disruptions to people's lives and relationships.

One reason for NOT being in one, big happy political TG family is that MINORITIES GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK - every time. Transsexuals are the smallest group among those who would be included. Yet they are the best-known and have the most urgent and specialized needs. This combination is the source of the feeling among some that transsexuals will be used to lend legitimacy to the larger group - but will not have their needs addressed. It's not a theoretical. It already happened when trans people were deliberately abandoned by the gay movement after Stonewall. It continues to happen with recent legislation. Even the Human Rights Campaign has come under criticism for sacrificing trans focus for some theoretical greater good. After a few decades of little things like murders, beatings, suicides, etc., some trans folk think "Huh, maybe this isn't so good for me."

[Julia_in_Pa]

Maddie,

Transitioned TS and IS people have extremely different lives than anyone else gay straight, BI or transgendered.
Our medical needs our different.
Our social needs are different.
Our political needs are different.

Maddie, answer this if you would please; How does a sex fetish dresser have anything in common with TS or IS people when it comes to the needs of that particular group?
Your a cross dresser or transgendered in some way by the way you wrote your reply in this thread; Do I, a transitioned Intersexed female have the same medical needs as you? Of course not.

As a transgendered person I'm also sure you present part time. Do you have the same needs as full time TS and IS people do concerning housing, employment, safety and public accommodation as you? Of course you don't.

This is not an attack on you Maddie I'm simply pointing out the fact there are so many major differences between transgendered and TS and IS people that there is no benefit for these two groups by being aligned with the transgendered community.

Over in the cross dressing forum they were talking about transsexualism and most heterosexual male cross dressers that answered had no clue what we go through. How is this supposed to assist us in anything?

It doesn't because TS/IS people are not heterosexual males
It ends up causing friction that can be avoided by not placing these groups together.

The Transgendered community and the TS/IS communities can be on friendly terms like countries that border one another but to think that we have things in common outside of being human is more than a little absurd.



Julia






As much as I hate labels, I think having an umbrella term of Transgender is ok for both transsexuals, crossdressers, androgynous, bi-gendered and everything in between is great. I believe that being a part of the LGBTQ community is fantastic. Why are we so against helping others out with their struggles when we perceived them to be different, even though it might help our struggles along the way, and even more importantly it's just the right thing to do?

[Bree-asaurus]

One reason for NOT being in one, big happy political TG family is that MINORITIES GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK - every time. Transsexuals are the smallest group among those who would be included. Yet they are the best-known and have the most urgent and specialized needs. This combination is the source of the feeling among some that transsexuals will be used to lend legitimacy to the larger group - but will not have their needs addressed. It's not a theoretical. It already happened when trans people were deliberately abandoned by the gay movement after Stonewall. It continues to happen with recent legislation. Even the Human Rights Campaign has come under criticism for sacrificing trans focus for some theoretical greater good. After a few decades of little things like murders, beatings, suicides, etc., some trans folk think "Huh, maybe this isn't so good for me."

I like you :D

With your usage of your brain... and words... and stuff...




Over in the cross dressing forum they were talking about transsexualism and most heterosexual male cross dressers that answered had no clue what we go through. How is this supposed to assist us in anything?

Yes... I witnessed this too, and see it all the time over there. It's like the hetero male cross dressers think that because they like to wear women's cloths, and we wear women's cloths, that we are somehow just a slightly more serious variation of them. They think they can take what they know about themselves and project that onto us. They believe they know sooo much about transsexuality because all they focus on is the one, single commonality... clothing.

I am making broad generalizations with what I just said, so I would like to take the time to also mention that there are several cross dressers in that forum that actually do understand that we are quite different, our issues are different and our needs are different. I do have great respect for them and by no means want to pool them in with the ignorant people in that forum.

[Maddie22]

Maddie,

Transitioned TS and IS people have extremely different lives than anyone else gay straight, BI or transgendered.
Our medical needs our different.
Our social needs are different.
Our political needs are different.

Maddie, answer this if you would please; How does a sex fetish dresser have anything in common with TS or IS people when it comes to the needs of that particular group?
Your a cross dresser or transgendered in some way by the way you wrote your reply in this thread; Do I, a transitioned Intersexed female have the same medical needs as you? Of course not.

As a transgendered person I'm also sure you present part time. Do you have the same needs as full time TS and IS people do concerning housing, employment, safety and public accommodation as you? Of course you don't.

This is not an attack on you Maddie I'm simply pointing out the fact there are so many major differences between transgendered and TS and IS people that there is no benefit for these two groups by being aligned with the transgendered community.

Over in the cross dressing forum they were talking about transsexualism and most heterosexual male cross dressers that answered had no clue what we go through. How is this supposed to assist us in anything?

It doesn't because TS/IS people are not heterosexual males
It ends up causing friction that can be avoided by not placing these groups together.


Julia

Yes Julia, by definition standards I'm a "Cross-dresser" that is part time. Do I have thoughts of constant suicide, misunderstandings about my gender, complete and utter depression constantly, unable to concentrate on my work or life activities to where I just got fired from my own job on Friday because I hate it so much having to go in there as "Matt" and feel inadequate constantly that it probably did have a major impact on my performance and the mistake I made, YES, to all of those questions. Do I know really what I am or how to categorize myself? Either A.) I don't know or B.) I don't want to admit it.

When it comes to a transsexuals needs, they are different than from that of a crossdresser or bi-gender person. However ALL persons rights are just as important, and I feel like we don't stick up for one another or fight for each other when injustices are served because of our perception of who is more important. There are areas in this country that people are still harassed and threatened because of the color of their skin. Point being that while needs may be different, human rights are human rights no matter who they are.


The psychological literature has recognized gradations in transsexuality for a very long time. I've not taken that in the sense of being more or less transsexual so much as primarily involving different coping mechanisms to deal with dysphoria.

GID manifests itself in a variety of ways over a person's lifetime until transition when, for most, it ends. The conscious apprehension of dysphoria as such may not be there until that person starts seeing issues in terms of gender. It doesn't develop over time in the sense of suddenly developing symptoms like catching a cold. You don't suddenly come down with transsexuality.

GID is not considered a psychological disorder by most clinicians. The term is considered stigmatizing by many people, however, as is having the diagnosis in the DSM instead of being medicalized as a physical disorder in the usual fashion. This issue is harder to deal with than some credit, because psych professionals will inevitably be in the therapy and diagnostic path in a major way because of the many manifestations of dysphoria, the psychological and emotional consequences of dealing with it once identified, and because of the resulting disruptions to people's lives and relationships.

One reason for NOT being in one, big happy political TG family is that MINORITIES GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK - every time. Transsexuals are the smallest group among those who would be included. Yet they are the best-known and have the most urgent and specialized needs. This combination is the source of the feeling among some that transsexuals will be used to lend legitimacy to the larger group - but will not have their needs addressed. It's not a theoretical. It already happened when trans people were deliberately abandoned by the gay movement after Stonewall. It continues to happen with recent legislation. Even the Human Rights Campaign has come under criticism for sacrificing trans focus for some theoretical greater good. After a few decades of little things like murders, beatings, suicides, etc., some trans folk think "Huh, maybe this isn't so good for me."

I understand, and even stated that GID shouldn't be labeled as a disorder because disorder has a negative connotation. I know that there are some clinicians that do not categorize GID as a disorder, but the fact still remains that the DSM still classifies it as a disorder, and continues with disorder a part of the name.

I understand where your point of view for leaving transsexuals out of the transgender umbrella. I do agree that the media misuses the terms as well. However there are strides that the whole LGBTQ community have taken for transsexual rights. It isn't enough, and many people in the community have forgotten about transsexuals and transgendered people . However I believe there is greater strength in numbers, and having allies who will fight by your side is an extremely valuable asset.

[Bree-asaurus]

When it comes to a transsexuals needs, they are different than from that of a crossdresser or bi-gender person. However ALL persons rights are just as important, and I feel like we don't stick up for one another or fight for each other when injustices are served because of our perception of who is more important. There are areas in this country that people are still harassed and threatened because of the color of their skin. Point being that while needs may be different, human rights are human rights no matter who they are.

No one said otherwise... you're arguing against a point that nobody made... unless I missed it. I usually notice when people argue about this topic because it usually blows up and the thread gets closed.

Do you make the same speech that every human deserves equal rights when a woman who's been raped is told she has to keep her baby?

It goes without saying that all humans should be treated equal. We don't need to preface every single mention of a minority deserving equal rights with ALL HUMANS ARE HUMAN AND SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT!

[LeaP]

I like you :D

I like you, too!

Except for that part about you being, like, my daughter's age, and I find myself learning from you. Pisses me right off!

[mcvste]

Terms change over time. I don't really have any problem figuring out what most people mean by the context. As April said, TG is the media's pet phrase for TS, but we know exactly what they mean. Most of the usage on the forum is either the umbrella meaning or some version of genderqueer (a term I personally detest, but that's a generational thing). A few just prefer TG to TS, though I'm not sure why. Syntactically, I find the usage "I'm a TG" odd, as the word in any of it's forms is an adjective.

Most of my trans friends actually prefer TG over TS, because it doesn't have 'sex' in it.

[Kate T]

OK, I haven't responded before now to the thread as I did not want to bias responses and my understanding of GID and TS is limited, most likely because I do not feel either. Why did I ask the questions then? Curiosity, interest, but probably most of all to TRY and come to a better understanding of those who do identify as TS. Why do I care? Because you experience so much pain and heartache I don't think I can not care about what you feel. That and we are all people, wonderful, annoying, frustrating, enlightening and beautiful people.

Were my original questions answered? I think so, and I think it has helped me understand just a little more. GID and transsexuality I can see is not JUST a body dysmorphia. There is more to it than that. Body dysmorphia is a common element to GID it seems but that is not the "full story" so to speak.
Almost all TS's responding seem to have described in varying terms some kind of "dysphoria", a general, nagging feeling that something is wrong that affects their capacity to live their lives to their full extent. It seems that even when not identified as GD this dysphoria originates at a very young age before societal pressures should have been able to exert a huge influence consequently it would seem that the GD is not caused by society however it is possible that society exacerbates the GD much like obesity exacerbates heart disease. You will still have heart disease without the obesity, it just won't be as bad.
What i think is less clear is whether an individual who experiences GD or GID MUST be TS. I'm less sure about that.

Thank you again for your replies and help.

[Rianna Humble]

What i think is less clear is whether an individual who experiences GD or GID MUST be TS. I'm less sure about that.

According to both the DSM and WPATH, there are people who are not transsexual but who suffer from Gender Identity Disorder. The latest version of the Standards of Care incorporates recommendations for their care as well as for the care of trans folk.

It would also seem that the latest DSM contradicts the distinction that I made between Gender Dysphoria and Gender Identity Disorder. According to them I would have had GID all my life even though my day to day functioning was not impaired until relatively recently. I find that disturbing as it appears to stigmatise.

[Anna Lorree]

i felt vaguely uncomfortable as a guy, and constantly felt like a fraud "why don't i feel like them????" i wondered....over the years, it became more and more of an obsession...

finally i started to obsess about transsexuals...

Wow, yeah I understand and can certainly identify with that. As I read that, it was like you had typed thoughts and feelings I have had a thousand times already.

Anna

[LeaP]

Wow, yeah I understand and can certainly identify with that. As I read that, it was like you had typed thoughts and feelings I have had a thousand times already.

:yt:

Scary how some people know what's in your head ... sometimes before you do ...