Which one of us is the cross dresser?

[joanna marie]

I have been wearing panties full time since she found out about me, she’s not happy about it , makes comments from time to time, but I’m past the point of caring. I have also shaved my underarms for years.

So I was sitting across from my wife the other day and made an interesting observation of how similar we look; Which I wisely kept to myself.

The tan male cargo shorts that I had on hit me a couple inches above the knee . Hers’ were a female brand but the same color and length as mine .

We both had on white ankle high cotton socks and white athletic shoes,

Both os us have on the same male style T-shirts we picked up on vacation, Mine green hers a bark blue.

We both had our hair pulled back into a pony tail.

This is her standard summer attire as what I was wearing is mine
and we were basically wearing identical outfits .

We were both wearing panties and our underarms were smooth shaven
The only major difference was that I didn't have my bra on and hadn't shaved my legs since march.

So I was wondering which one of us is the crossdresser?:heehee:

[JessHaust]

Women have had the option to dress lie a male for years, it's kind if reverse discrimination.

[BRANDYJ]

This is a tired old argument. It is what it is. Women can dress in things that we can't. No, they are not crossdressing. They are being women and dressing in a manner that is quit acceptable. Bluntly, it's not acceptable for us to wear a bra and skirts. Like I said...it is what it is. Get over it. No, this is not directed at the OP. It's general statement of how I feel and my opinion.

[JessHaust]

Harsh, Brandy, harsh.

[MandyGG]

I see the observation, and I see the "double standard", if you will. But, what people are failing to take into consideration is that our "boy like" shorts, are cut FOR a woman's figure. If we were to go to the men's department to get said shorts, they would make a large gap around our waist. Yes, I have worn men's t-shirts, but mostly I buy t-shirts that are cut for women. They are shorter in the torso, have a more form fitting shape, and smaller sleeves. So, really it isn't "Crossdressing" if the clothes are MADE for a woman.

[Barbara Ella]

What I find hard to believe is that after making this observation you still did not go in and shave those ugly hairy legs......lol

Barbara

[Badtranny]

C'mon, a woman who crossdresses is wearing masculine clothes(NOT unisex), binding her breasts, and stuffing a packer in her pants. I know this because I happen to know (and adore) a woman who crossdresses.

It's ridiculous to say a woman in pants is crossdressing, unless you're talking about those rebel broads in the 18th century.

[BRANDYJ]

Harsh, Brandy, harsh.

I don't think I was harsh at all Jess. It's just reality and the way it is. I accept that without argument.
I agree with Badtranny as to what is crossdressing in women.

[MandyGG]

It's kind of funny, my partner who tried to come to terms with the dressing, but didn't, and it is still an ongoing evolution and like all evolutions will probably take thousands of years.. Well she gets upset at the thought of me possibly dressing.. Yet if I was to wear her tracksuit(sweat) pants and one of her hoodies, (both from the female section) she doesn't bat an eye..
My guess is that it's not about which section of the store it came from but how 'girly' it looks.. Try it one time, Wear her cargo's etc and see if she even notices.. :)

Nici.

Nic, forgive me, but you are new to the forum and your screen name has GG at the end. Are you a SO of a CD? This post sounds like you are a CD yourself, and not a genetic female. I feel weird being blunt, but are you male or female?

[BRANDYJ]

Nicola, your argument holds no water. Look at all the years that women were treated as second rate citizens and dominated by men. Treated as a possession and worse. Women earned the rights you mentioned. And forward thinking men accepted their rights. I guess to your way of thinking mainstream should just getover it and everyone should have the right to just go naked too. As for the Scots and kilts...as they say, "when in Rome, do as the Romans" Weak argument.

[MandyGG]

Thats ok Mandy, and forgive the confusion.. I realised the potential for confusion at the moment i finished signing up.. I guess I should have used NicolaNotGG.. :S But I am a CDer, and one that isn't new, I just had to change accounts to keep a modicum of peace..

Nici..

Thank you! I was so confused! LOL! Well....welcome back!

[Andy66]

So I ask you, when do we get to dictate some changes, when do the GG's repay us for accepting their basic rights and allow (and accept) us ours as we did theirs?!


I guess a few people will be mad at me for saying this, but sometimes you can't sit around waiting for someone to give you your rights, you have to TAKE them. So if you want to wear a dress, stop telling yourself why you can't, and just put one on and wear it.

[Tracii G]

MandyGG makes a good point those items are made for women.

[natacsha]

I think girls definitely have the approval to dress as comfortable as they please. My ex's used to wear my sweats around the house, shirts , boxers....I thought it was cute! And I think thats just it. A girl, in comparison to a man, is usually physically harmless. Thats why I think its ok for them. no one is gonna hurt a girl. Unless shes the big type with the baggy jeans big chain with the spiked hair named deedee and she catches you looking at her girl as that may lead to a violent outcome...even with a guy. But overall, girls are too cute to be judged by what they wear. Guys are different. Society doesn't help but its just not cute to many. Some guys make statements through hate crimes and make it difficult for us to be us. But I think the simple nature of the female species, in all their beauty and perfection, allows for them to get away with many things we cannot. anyways, I hear guys wishing they were girls waaay more than girls wishing to be men. Why? Cause girls are awesome! :D

Btw, I'm not saying that I think crossdressers aren't cute, I'm just stating the obvious that its much more accepted for girls to cd...and just think too...they can throw on a hat and still be adorable...we would need more than a wig to make up to be passably beautiful...

[Danni Bear]

who is crossdressing?

the answer is simple as can be, it is the one dressing to be the opposite of their birth gender. women dressing in male clothes are still women, men dressing in female clothes are still men. the perception is in how you feel about seeing yourself or others dressed opposite.

don't get me wrong as there are female crossdressers, they are just few and far between. women and I am one of them who wears what is comfortable and appropiate for the occassion. I have done that all my adult life both before and after transition. that is my right as a human being, and includes being nude if called for by circumstances. most if not all women feel the same and won't allow anyone to dictate how we dress for long.

Danni

[kellycan27]

Sounds like, to me anyway................... that neither of you were cross dressed. :strugglin

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I cant believe this boring and worn out topic has come up yet again!

women dress in clothes to be comfortable - NOT to pretend they are men
men dress in womens clothes to pretend to be women

if it were just about the clothes then you wouldnt be wearing bra's when you have no boobs to put into them, or wigs to pretend you have girly hair,

As Badtranny stated above, women wear pants, yes, but we dont stuff a hose pipe down the front to pretend we have a penis - or a fake beard & moustache

Nicola, who said you cant wear a dress? you can wear whatever you please - last time I looked it was not against the law for a man to wear a dress
the only person stopping you is yourself - if you get laughed at or stared at then that's your problem - you're the one pretending to be a different gender, not the women in pants

[Roberta Marie]

And why can women do what we can't?! (giving birth etc doesn't count.)
It should be acceptable for anyone to wear anything they damn well please.. So sorry Brandy, I will not get over it! Mainstream should get over it!! We are beneficially contributing members of society, and what we wear does not change that!
Oh and the scot's have been wearing 'skirts for centuries.. Scuse me, kilts for good reason..

Once it wasn't acceptable for women to smoke, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to wear pants, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to have a career, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to join the armed forces (other than support roles), they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to vote, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to....

So I ask you, when do we get to dictate some changes, when do the GG's repay us for accepting their basic rights and allow (and accept) us ours as we did theirs?!

Nici.


Because, they (women) changed that. Women were brave enough to change it, they wore what they wanted when it was not socially correct, they paid the consequences, they fought, and they won the right to wear what they want. They marched in the streets, and at times they even had violent confrontations over their rights.

Women were brave enough to stand up for what they believed and wanted to get where they are, while we hide in our closets. We have not earned the right to wear what we want, women have.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nicola nobody is stopping you... your whole meme is empty unless you go out there and get it done.. its just howling at the moon..

GG's repay you??? What an entitled self absorbed thought...


Also you ignore that fact that what makes comparisons silly is that women don't go home and masturbate after wearing mens jeans...BECAUSE they wore men's jeans...
and if you don't get and sexual things out of it, women don't wear men's clothes to feel the comfort of "man time"...

this is what you must address for people to make wearing women's clothes socially and culturally acceptable more broadly..its not the clothes...

if men looked good in a little black dress, they'd wear them...countless times fashionistas have tried "women's" clothes as mens clothes "womanswear" to match "menswear"... it just doesnt work..

[BRANDYJ]

You nailed it Kaitlyn. Men look downright ridiculous in a dress without the hair, boobs, shaved allover and makeup. And then, many still look ridiculous trying to look like a woman. Women on the other hand still look great in anything they wear. Now add the sexual aspect of it and it makes sense it's not the same as how women are perceived wearing whatever they want to wear.

[Tina B.]

Joanna, the answer to your question is very simple, you are. Unless you bought that bra in the mens section of the dept store, and if you did, please tell me where you shop, my stores don't seem to have man bras.
As far as women getting to wear pants, man style shirts,check your history, no one gave them that right, they just did it, and took a lot of heat for doing it, and it took a long time for it to be come acceptable. The movement started way back in the late 1800's and didn't really become popular, until the guys went off to fight world war 2. So all you need to do is start wearing that dress, get enough others to join, and then in 50 or 60 years, maybe people will get used to it.
Tina B.

[Badtranny]

and all the macho bullshit we hide behind can be forgotten.. .

Well Nici, while you're hiding behind "macho bullshit", some of us have stopped pretending altogether and are living our lives out in the open. Closeted people don't change the world and living out loud is not for the timid.

[Marleena]

Joanna shave your darn legs and put a bra on and I'll see you as equals.:D

[Rachel Morley]

C'mon, a woman who crossdresses is wearing masculine clothes(NOT unisex), binding her breasts, and stuffing a packer in her pants. I know this because I happen to know (and adore) a woman who crossdresses. It's ridiculous to say a woman in pants is crossdressing, unless you're talking about those rebel broads in the 18th century.

This is what I think too. My wife has crossdressed a few times for a costume party at our TG support group, complete with stuck on theatrical facial hair - just for fun -(she calls herself Mark when she does this) anyway,that is what I would call crossdressing as she binds her breasts and wears her 21 year old son's "baggy dude clothes". If woman wears plain pants, tees, shorts etc ... or especially women's cut versions of these, I can't see how she is crossdressing. To me she's gotta be wearing mens' clothes, that look like mens' clothes, and that were bought from the mens' section. That's my 2 cents.

[stacycoral]

Women have had the option to dress lie a male for years, it's kind if reverse discrimination.

Jess has made the statment i have beilieve all my life, YOu are so right girl, I guess that is why i don't fit in the cookiecutter.

[LeaP]

I've rarely seen women who were truly crossdressed. (though if completely passable I may not have noticed, of course). I've seen plenty of women dressed in an androgynous manner and less often those dressed in an overtly masculine manner - but they still didn't come off as crossdressed. The intention to BE male just isn't there. A masculine woman is not the same as a crossdressed woman.

I prefer to view changes in acceptance patterns of certain clothing types in terms of convergence, or universality, rather than the adoption of men's clothing by women. To focus on the menswear perspective is to ignore changes that have taken place in men's clothing which would have been completely unacceptable in the past.

[Foxglove]

The intention to BE male just isn't there. A masculine woman is not the same as a crossdressed woman.


I think this is a good point. Back in the days when women were abandoning dresses and skirts and putting on pants, were they crossdressing? Did they have any intention of being male? I don't think so. They were wearing what suited them better and starting a new and lasting trend.

And yet--there's a woman I see about town fairly often who dresses exactly like a man. You have to look twice at her before you're sure she's a woman. Plaid shirt, jeans, work boots. She dresses exactly like a working man. Is she trying to be masculine or is she just wearing what's appropriate to her job? (I think she's a farmer, but I'm not sure about that.) But every time I see her, I get the feeling I'm looking at a crossdressing woman. That's how she comes across. So is intent always a factor when you're determining whether someone's crossdressed or not?

Annabelle

[ReineD]

I don't see the attire you describe as either being feminine or masculine. You're just describing what seems to be a universal style of dress. The gender gap is closing in terms of jobs and gender roles, and this is being reflected in the clothing. This is no fun for crossdressers, but it is what it is.

Have a look at these pics of high school students. Other than minor variations in some of the students, they're all dressed pretty much the same. There is no more "masculine" or "feminine" look, unless the guys wear the traditional shirts & ties and the girls wear skirts. We're in a new clothing style era now, and to say that women crossdress is ridiculous. Are the guys crossdressing when they drop their shirts and ties and wear the same blue jeans, sneakers, and Tshirts that the women wear? :D

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2007/02/15/dscn0058.jpg
http://weplaydifferent.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/news_full_16.jpg
http://myai.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/high-school-students.jpeg

As to underwear, they are designed to accomodate certain body parts, that's all. If you don't have breasts and you wear a bra, then you are crossdressing. :)

[MandyGG]

This is so tired.

I can wear a concert t-shirt or a t-shirt to support my kids school, that are sold to both men and women. Why? Because they are SOLD TO BOTH. The dudes next to me wearing the same shirt are not crossdressed for the same reason. They are sold to both. Therefore, unisex.

I am not presenting as a man. My jeans have sparkles and bling on the butt pockets, are cut for my body shape and size, and are bought in the womens department. Who cares if women can wear pants! I didn't earn the right to be able to, but I sure as hell enjoy the fact that I can!

The difference is, if a dress were intentionally designed for men, made for a man's body, and sold in the men's department, this would be a non-issue. The fact is, YOU want to appear FEMALE. You spend a few hours "trying" to make it happen, whether you actually succeed is a whole other story. I could care less to appear MALE.

If it were just wearing a dress, that would be one thing. You are not "just wearing a dress".

Put this tired debate to rest. It will get everyone frustrated and worked up over something that we have no control over.

If you want to wear a dress. Do it. But, it better be presented as a man in a dress without wigs, forms, shaving, etc.... or your fight is worthless. To be able to have men wear dresses, you have to show FOR CERTAIN that it is men just wanting a dress to be uncomfortable (you and I both know those damn things are not made for comfort.) Otherwise, you are just another crossdresser b*tching about things being unfair. You know what's unfair... the fact that this is even a damn issue. God forbid letting women be women!

[Beverley Sims]

For us androgony is the best route for coming out...IMHO.:)

[Marie-Elise]

I see the observation, and I see the "double standard", if you will. But, what people are failing to take into consideration is that our "boy like" shorts, are cut FOR a woman's figure. If we were to go to the men's department to get said shorts, they would make a large gap around our waist. Yes, I have worn men's t-shirts, but mostly I buy t-shirts that are cut for women. They are shorter in the torso, have a more form fitting shape, and smaller sleeves. So, really it isn't "Crossdressing" if the clothes are MADE for a woman.

Interesting. My cousin was a professional athlete and, as a result, had larger than normal thighs due to sprinting. He always shopped for and wore women's jeans. I don't believe he is a crossdresser but he had no problem shopping in the women's department at any store.

Myself, I think the fact that the clothing was made for a woman in no small way part of the attraction for me.

[MandyGG]

Was he wearing them because they were the best fit, or did he want to appear female? Right there is the difference!

[Marie-Elise]

God forbid letting women be women!

Not quite sure what that means. We should let women be women?

[MandyGG]

It means stop comparing the two. Leave what we can't control alone. Let us be us without adding commentary about how we choose to live it. Basically, stop the GG bashing because we don't do things the way that you feel we should.

[ReineD]

Once it wasn't acceptable for women to smoke, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to wear pants, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to have a career, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to join the armed forces (other than support roles), they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to vote, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to....

So I ask you, when do we get to dictate some changes, when do the GG's repay us for accepting their basic rights and allow (and accept) us ours as we did theirs?!

I'm sorry, but this has got to be the most sexist comment I've read here in a long time. Your premise is, the pecking order among the genders with women having fewer rights was natural. This is utter nonsense. Women rightfully were tired of being second class citizens and if the gender situation had been reversed, men would have fought for their rights to vote and and work too. Now everything is equal as it should be.

If you want to dress like a contemporary woman, join the 21st century and just dress like the guys do in the high school pics that I posted, since women dress the same way! :D


Oh, and BTW, it is no longer acceptable for anyone to smoke. :p

[BRANDYJ]

As happens often, ReineD said what I was trying to say, but said it better. That's because she has to WO in front of MAN = WOMAN:D

[Lorileah]

When men decide that they want to wear something and in their own minds decide that it isn't somehow draining their virility, then they can wear anything that comes off the rack. It isn't the women who are telling most men what to wear. Trust me if tomorrow men's clothing designers convinced men that wearing pink lace panties made you hit a ball further or got you laid more, they would flock to the lingerie department.

FDR said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" That is still true. The mind set of "this is mine and that is yours" is all made up. The real reason women wear what they want to wear is THEY want to and they don't give a rat's butt if you like it or not.

[Alice Torn]

Just my opinion, but i think we have been in a new ark age fashion wise, since the 1970's. The age of lack of common sense, the age of stupidity, the age of selfishness. I also do not believe that ALL men oppressed women, before thr feminist(actually the femmasculinist movement started.) Listen to some of the old love songs from the 1800's. Stephen Foster's and Civil War love songs! There is a HUGE STEREOTYPING of men here! I do not believe there was nearly as much oppression of women back then, as the feminazis would brainwash us into accepting totally. Sure there was some, but men had to work 14 hour days in sweat shops, or on the farm, too, without modern tractors. There is a thing called rebellion, without a good reason or cause, too. Equal rights cannot be, without equal responsibility. Men should have the same rights to wear women's clothes, and claim harrassment, if they are harrassed. Law and justice knows no color, or sex or gender. Good day.

[Girliegirl]

I know its called crossdressing, but leave the clothes out of it for a minute and call itwhat it is. For me its about being feminine and escaping the masculine world for a while. Women dont have to escape by changing clothes. being masculine is about holding your own in competition, strength, work, mechanical knowledge, etc...... For a woman to take that role is as easy as going fishing, joining a sport, becoming a mechanic, my point is that its about actions. Men who enjoy feminine things are doing it to tap into the feminine world. Biking won't do that, laundry won't do that, fishing, cooking, cleaning, boating.... Not even shopping does that. GGs, next time you go shopping only look in the mens department... Its as boring as grocery shopping. Looking for cute outfits and imagining how colors will look and feel on, coordinating everything, makeup, etc.... Thats the fun part of shopping. And on a side note. Women do crossdress. Everyone here knows women strive for the ideological feminine look. Breast implants on women are as unnatural as a man wearing breast forms. Its the feeling. I bet no one here knows of a man getting pec implants.

[chrissietoo]

C'mon, a woman who crossdresses is wearing masculine clothes(NOT unisex), binding her breasts, and stuffing a packer in her pants. I know this because I happen to know (and adore) a woman who crossdresses.

It's ridiculous to say a woman in pants is crossdressing, unless you're talking about those rebel broads in the 18th century.

It's always been curious to me that there are plenty of hetero males who dress as females, but most of the women who dress as males are hetero. I wonder if this is because women have more freedom in dressing anyway?

[Lorileah]

It's always been curious to me that there are plenty of hetero males who dress as females, but most of the women who dress as males are hetero. I wonder if this is because women have more freedom in dressing anyway?

Did you miss a word here? I am having trouble figuring that out. If you are implying that FtM crossdressers are NOT usually hetero, I think you may be missing the boat. I think it was Melissa who actually explained that FtM crossdressers do facial hair and prosthetics not just the clothes. Are you saying you don't see many FtM Crossdressers because they blend in (because women wear male clothing)?

As I said women have more "freedom" as you call it because they don't care what most people say. When people as a group decide to do something like wear a certain type of clothing (like leg warmers...who thought that was sexy? :)), then it becomes common place and no one cares. 60 years ago they didn't have that freedom but then designers and women decided that they didn't have to fit a cookie cutter mold. 200 years ago men had the same latitude. Wigs, make up , even dresses were in the realm of males. Men just gave it up for whatever reason (peer pressure probably).

[MandyGG]

Women do crossdress. Everyone here knows women strive for the ideological feminine look. Breast implants on women are as unnatural as a man wearing breast forms. Its the feeling. I bet no one here knows of a man getting pec implants.

Here is ONE of the many websites when Pec Implants is Googled. There are also Calf, Deltoid, Bicep, and Tricep....and even penile.

http://www.bodyimplants.com/

[Girliegirl]

But I can name 20 real world women in my life with implants and I couldnt name 1 man with pec iplants. Lip stick is the same thing though. Mascara, nail polish, wonder bras, padded bras..... They are designed to acheive the same ultimatly unnatural feminine appearance. no one, not man nor woman looks at a nat geo documentary with aboriginal woman and says thats the looki want but women and some men see 50 revlon commercials aday with gorgeously shiny plump red lips, and they want it.

[Marleena]

As to underwear, they are designed to accomodate certain body parts, that's all. If you don't have breasts and you wear a bra, then you are crossdressing. :)

Hmm.. so I have man boobs, now if I wear a bra I'm not crossdressing? Cool..:D

[MandyGG]

But I can name 20 real world women in my life with implants and I couldnt name 1 man with pec iplants. Lip stick is the same thing though. Mascara, nail polish, wonder bras, padded bras..... They are designed to acheive the same ultimatly unnatural feminine appearance. no one, not man nor woman looks at a nat geo documentary with aboriginal woman and says thats the looki want but women and some men see 50 revlon commercials aday with gorgeously shiny plump red lips, and they want it.

A woman wearing the trend, which is what society says to be attractive to the opposite sex, like lipstick and breast implants.... are crossdressers? A woman wanting to present as a woman.... is a crossdresser? Does this really make any sense.... even to you? I think that is a bit of a stretch. ok, ok, ok.... a LOT of a stretch.


Edited to add:
I have a DD chest. I have since my teens. I didn't ask for it, but I got it. So, because I am large chested (without implants) I look unnatural? What if I were to be diagnosed with Breast Cancer, and I came to the decision that I had to have my DD's back after successful treatments and bi-lateral mastectomy? Would I then be a crossdresser because I had to have implants to get my original form back?

[Girliegirl]

Did you miss a word here? I am having trouble figuring that out. If you are implying that FtM crossdressers are NOT usually hetero, I think you may be missing the boat. I think it was Melissa who actually explained that FtM crossdressers do facial hair and prosthetics not just the clothes. Are you saying you don't see many FtM Crossdressers because they blend in (because women wear male clothing)?

As I said women have more "freedom" as you call it because they don't care what most people say. When people as a group decide to do something like wear a certain type of clothing (like leg warmers...who thought that was sexy? :)), then it becomes common place and no one cares. 60 years ago they didn't have that freedom but then designers and women decided that they didn't have to fit a cookie cutter mold. 200 years ago men had the same latitude. Wigs, make up , even dresses were in the realm of males. Men just gave it up for whatever reason (peer pressure probably).

it would be interesting to find out how similar the number of female to male cders there are compared to male to female ts's there are. Because I believe gender dysphoria is dofferent then m2f crossdressing. I have no desire to be our look fem all day everyday.

[Girliegirl]

I'm sorry, that's not the way I meant it at all. I'm saying that some women go aftersomething they are not, the same thing applies to cders. Thats all I meant by it and I dosnt mean to offend anyone. Sometimes I speak overly metaphorically.

[MandyGG]

I have no desire to be our look fem all day everyday.

Yet, your screen name is "GirlieGirl"..... that makes me giggle.

I know that you are not meaning to be offensive, nor am I meaning to sound harsh. I think in public settings like forums it is easily misread a certain way. I do believe that your metaphors are a bit off though.

[LeaP]

I'm sorry, that's not the way I meant it at all. I'm saying that some women go aftersomething they are not, the same thing applies to cders. Thats all I meant by it and I dosnt mean to offend anyone. Sometimes I speak overly metaphorically.

I'm not buying it. Adornment and body modification appear to be a natural human activity, as it is found in all cultures and has existed for all time. Moreover, in the case of cosmetics, it's a matter of enhancing something one already has, not creating what they do not. Lipstick, by the way, at least in any normal shade, mimics and exaggerates the skin flush associated with arousal in women. I.e., it's not quite what you think!

[Girliegirl]

Well I meant it in the sense that my wife and I can chose decor in our home, flowers for our flower beds, and meals we both like. We also happen to be able to choose clothes we also like. I guess the point I was trying to make was that men and woman are both human. The style of clothes and personal freedoms included.

[dianne_1234]

Google
Brian Zembic

...but he's famous because a man with breast implants is unusual.

[Lorileah]

But I can name 20 real world women in my life with implants and I couldnt name 1 man with pec iplants. Lip stick is the same thing though. Mascara, nail polish, wonder bras, padded bras..... They are designed to acheive the same ultimatly unnatural feminine appearance. no one, not man nor woman looks at a nat geo documentary with aboriginal woman and says thats the looki want but women and some men see 50 revlon commercials aday with gorgeously shiny plump red lips, and they want it.

I see you have not studied anthropology or sociology. Lets see: Lipstick. When the human is aroused (especially the female) the lips (on the face) become darker and redder. It is also considered a visual signal that mimics the sexual organs that do the same. Lipstick especially red gives a continuous signal to the onlooker that the wearer is sexually ready.

Eye makeup: Young females attract males with their large eyes. Behaviorally big eyes elicit an "Aww" response that makes others want to protect and care for the large eyed person or animal. It signals that a female is young and thus ready.

Large breasts indicate a higher ability to nurse young. Thus provide an offspring with nourishment and increased chance of living. Small breasts signal 1) lack of sexual maturity or 2) decreased milk production. In men the ability to build pecs (and in former civilizations this was done by work not 24 hr fitness) is physical. It is difficult for women to get larger breasts by exercise and adding fat which does make larger breasts comes with the signal that thfemale is older and maybe beyond reproductive prime.

I could go on but each of these things you describe were invented specifically to increase the females attractiveness in the society they are in. Your Nat'l Geo special has totally different signals depending on the part of the world. Large lips (plates), hairy faces, even a more male appearing body are all attractive to the viewer in that area as it signals a certain sexual thing or cultural (usually associated with survival) thing. Remember the old adage of wide hips easy child bearing?

In our culture being a physically strong male is not necessarily required to attract a mate. A male who can make money (Brooks Brothers suits) replaces pec implants (which really is an unusual surgery and often associated with the gay community like butt implants). Hairiness in males indicates a high testosterone level (which is one thing many GG's object to our removing this signal because it sends the signal of not being manly...and yes that still is important to some women for reproductive reasons). The irony is that often when a male tries to look more masculine he does things that make him less virile.

In the long run, clothing, male or female, usually falls into practicality or sexual attractiveness. The reason more women have gone toward what people here believe are male items of clothing is a mixture of both. Usually practicality is prime. Slacks are easier to wear when doing physical things. Flat shoes too. No one here wears a dress to be a better lumberjack. No one here wears 4" heels to drive a truck or earth mover. As Reine says certain items of clothing are functional for body morphology. When people on these boards say panties fit better they are probably not lying. They may get better support with the tightness or they may not have a whole lot to support (Yes...I admit it). Bras were made to keep the girls up and younger looking but also to support the weight. Yes there are some here who can benefit from that too.

One thing I think most of us need to admit here is that the clothing we choose isn't for practical use but more for visual stimulus. That isn't wrong but that is what we do. That is how we started. No one has ever said "When I was 13 I tried on my sister's skirt and was able to build a house faster" No, they say "I put it on and I liked how it looked, how it felt."

[Girliegirl]

Wow, I'm feeing a bit undereducated on the matter. You ladies have had this conversion before!

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Wow, I'm feeing a bit undereducated on the matter. You ladies have had this conversion before!

Yes we have, more than once, even in the short time I have been a member of this forum and we go over the same old bones every time - hence the pleas to put this worn out subject to bed!

[MandyGG]

Google
Brian Zembic

...but he's famous because a man with breast implants is unusual.

He is famous because of HOW he got the breast. He didn't set out to get them because he was wanting to present as a female. He got them to win a $100K bet!

So, was this FOR or AGAINST what GirlieGirl was trying to say?

[Lorileah]

Wow, I'm feeing a bit undereducated on the matter. You ladies have had this conversion before!

Yes we have :) This comes up frequently specially when people start feeling frustrated with their SO's. It will come up again in about 6 weeks. Thanks for not taking it personally it isn't :)

[Marleena]

...and I failed miserably at trying to inject some humor into this thread.:)


It started by the OP as just for fun. Ah well...

[Violetgray]

For weeks I've been watching the various "Why isn't it crossdressing when a woman wears pants" debates from the sidelines. I still don't know which side I ultimately fall on, but I do have a few questions.

Before I get to that, let me say first that for people who lament that this issue is being brought up again: sorry but that's the way it's got to be. New people are being born everyday, which means new crossdressers, which means new periods of self discovery. New people come to this site all the time, so new people will want to know. Now, on to business..

Oh, wait, one last statement before I get to the questions...


This is a tired old argument. It is what it is. Women can dress in things that we can't. No, they are not crossdressing. They are being women and dressing in a manner that is quit acceptable. Bluntly, it's not acceptable for us to wear a bra and skirts. Like I said...it is what it is. Get over it.

"That's how it is, just get over it" is never a good answer for ANYTHING. It is the enemy of all positive change. Now. You ready? Go.


I see the observation, and I see the "double standard", if you will. But, what people are failing to take into consideration is that our "boy like" shorts, are cut FOR a woman's figure. If we were to go to the men's department to get said shorts, they would make a large gap around our waist. Yes, I have worn men's t-shirts, but mostly I buy t-shirts that are cut for women. They are shorter in the torso, have a more form fitting shape, and smaller sleeves. So, really it isn't "Crossdressing" if the clothes are MADE for a woman.

So if I make myself a dress with a man's measurement for shoulders and hips and wear it out, then I'm not crossdressing? What about a size 13 stiletto heel? It's big enough for my man-feet, so I'm not crossdressing then?


C'mon, a woman who crossdresses is wearing masculine clothes(NOT unisex), binding her breasts, and stuffing a packer in her pants. I know this because I happen to know (and adore) a woman who crossdresses.

It's ridiculous to say a woman in pants is crossdressing, unless you're talking about those rebel broads in the 18th century.

This guy: http://popseoul.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pf-0829.jpg

Is not using any padding. Is he not crossdressing then?




Once it wasn't acceptable for women to smoke, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to wear pants, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to have a career, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to join the armed forces (other than support roles), they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to vote, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to....

So I ask you, when do we get to dictate some changes, when do the GG's repay us for accepting their basic rights and allow (and accept) us ours as we did theirs?!

Nici.

Soooo.. Men are being oppressed by women as far as clothing? Not by both sexes? If I left my house wearing a dress right now, who would beat me up, men or women?



women dress in clothes to be comfortable - NOT to pretend they are men
men dress in womens clothes to pretend to be women

if it were just about the clothes then you wouldnt be wearing bra's when you have no boobs to put into them, or wigs to pretend you have girly hair,

Nicola, who said you cant wear a dress? you can wear whatever you please - last time I looked it was not against the law for a man to wear a dress
the only person stopping you is yourself - if you get laughed at or stared at then that's your problem - you're the one pretending to be a different gender, not the women in pants

So ALL men who wear dresses are pretending to be women? By saying that (man in dress = pretending to be female) aren't you defining what it means to be female by articles of clothing?

I had more questions/points, but this post is long enough, so I'll stop now..

[Emma Leigh]

My ex,s sister wears male clothes.....male underwear.....and male deoderant 24/7........that ends the women dont crossdress bullshit

[ReineD]

My ex,s sister wears male clothes.....male underwear.....and male deoderant 24/7........that ends the women dont crossdress bullshit

Your ex's sister isn't the norm. There are transgender women too, no one said there weren't. :)

The question is rather, is the average woman crossdressing just because she doesn't wear styles that were popular 60 years ago? The answer is no. Plain and simple.

[MandyGG]

Is she a lesbian? Is she presenting as a male? We are talking the average, day to day, GG that wears khaki shorts, t-shirt, tennis shoes with secret deodorant and panties.

The trans-masculine forum, lesbians, and other's outside the box....much like yourselves, are null in this conversation.

[anonymous?]

Byassing the argument and answering the OP (mostly because I'm lazy)

A woman dressing in masculine clothes is seen as bettering herself. (see: Womens business attire, political lesbianism(arguments against in another thread), women in "mathy" professions, ect)
A man dressing in feminine clothes is seen as lowering himself. (see: heightend discrimination against transwomen over transmen, flamboyant gay men over butch lesbians, men in 'artsy" professions being taunted, ect)

It's our views on masculinity/femininity. It's a bullshit double standard.

I think her name is Laci Green? Youtube channel, she's got a lot of great videos on this stuff
(C'mon, younger people, you know who I'm talking about right...?)

[MandyGG]

So if I make myself a dress with a man's measurement for shoulders and hips and wear it out, then I'm not crossdressing? What about a size 13 stiletto heel? It's big enough for my man-feet, so I'm not crossdressing then?

You are totally missing what we are saying! If you are going to quote me, please do so in the correct context! I had already gone further into it. But I will do it again....

If the dresses were common in the men's department of the store, this debate would be a non-issue, now wouldn't it. But, it isn't about the clothes at all! A crossdresser doesn't just want clothes. They want to present as a female. Thy add the wigs, shaving, nails, makeup, padding, forms, etc.... So, yes, if you were wearing the dress presented as a female you would still be a crossdresser. If you were wearing the dress out of pure "comfort", and it were a common practice among men, then no you wouldn't be.

[Girliegirl]

I agree mandy. Presenting as female isnt the same as a gg presenting as female. But its about masculine/feminine not clothes. For a woman to be masculine is not matter of how she dresses. What would that be an old tshirt and jeans? No, it would be to hunt a moose and then clean out in the field. For men to be feminine is to dress. by normal logic concerning gender differences and emotions, a female lumberjack is breaking the gender stereotype just as much as a cder, in that she is doing something society reserves for the masculine.

[Emma Leigh]

You are totally missing what we are saying! If you are going to quote me, please do so in the correct context! I had already gone further into it. But I will do it again....

If the dresses were common in the men's department of the store, this debate would be a non-issue, now wouldn't it. But, it isn't about the clothes at all! A crossdresser doesn't just want clothes. They want to present as a female. Thy add the wigs, shaving, nails, makeup, padding, forms, etc.... So, yes, if you were wearing the dress presented as a female you would still be a crossdresser. If you were wearing the dress out of pure "comfort", and it were a common practice among men, then no you wouldn't be.

It seems to me when you say we.........you mean you............Victoria Beckham did a range of skirts for men....and David modeled them...so is he a crossdresser???..........

[MandyGG]

OMG!!!! Read what I said!!!!! If he was presenting as a FEMALE, then YES! If he was not, then NO!! And, when I say, WE, I mean, WE. I didn't stutter-type. Read the other GG's replies. They echo what I have said.

Here are the GG's responses....


The question is rather, is the average woman crossdressing just because she doesn't wear styles that were popular 60 years ago? The answer is no. Plain and simple.


women dress in clothes to be comfortable - NOT to pretend they are men
men dress in womens clothes to pretend to be women

if it were just about the clothes then you wouldnt be wearing bra's when you have no boobs to put into them, or wigs to pretend you have girly hair,

As Badtranny stated above, women wear pants, yes, but we dont stuff a hose pipe down the front to pretend we have a penis - or a fake beard & moustache

Nicola, who said you cant wear a dress? you can wear whatever you please - last time I looked it was not against the law for a man to wear a dress
the only person stopping you is yourself - if you get laughed at or stared at then that's your problem - you're the one pretending to be a different gender, not the women in pants

[Badtranny]

It seems to me when you say we.........you mean you............Victoria Beckham did a range of skirts for men....and David modeled them...so is he a crossdresser???..........

No he wouldn't and you just made her point. If a man is walking around in clothes made for MEN then he is not crossdressing, because he is NOT wearing clothes for the opposite sex. The design or the fashion could be called gender bending or blurring, but the man is wearing something FOR men. If on the other hand a man is wearing his own jeans and Tshirt along with a wig and makeup in order to appear female, then he is in fact, crossdressing.

Are we clear on this? A crossdresser gets off on wearing clothes SPECIFICALLY made for women OR by looking as much like a woman as possible. Women are not crossdressing unless they are trying to appear male OR wearing something because it was explicitly made for men. Why is this so difficult?

[MandyGG]

Thank you, M!

It seems as some want to hear ONLY what they want to hear.... no matter what or how I say it.... multiple. times. in. one. day.

[Girliegirl]

A gg throws on full camo, facemask, boots goes deer hunting, sets up atreestand, draws her bow and kills a deer and enjoys doing it. Starts doing it any time she has the opportunity to go. That woman is being masculine and will hate not being treated as one of the guys. She will not be convinced by society that she has a problem and needs a therapist to find the cause or help her to come to terms with herself.

[MandyGG]

I am not going into the gender treatment debate, GirlieGirl....

This IS about the average woman, "Soccer Mom" if you will, wearing her normal, everyday clothes.... and because she doesn't look like she is in a 60's sitcom, she is somehow a crossdresser.

I am NOT talking about masculinity or femininity, and societies treatment of the two.... we can debate that on a different thread. It is not relevant to the topic at hand.

Here is the opening post:


I have been wearing panties full time since she found out about me, she’s not happy about it , makes comments from time to time, but I’m past the point of caring. I have also shaved my underarms for years.

So I was sitting across from my wife the other day and made an interesting observation of how similar we look; Which I wisely kept to myself.

The tan male cargo shorts that I had on hit me a couple inches above the knee . Hers’ were a female brand but the same color and length as mine .

We both had on white ankle high cotton socks and white athletic shoes,

Both os us have on the same male style T-shirts we picked up on vacation, Mine green hers a bark blue.

We both had our hair pulled back into a pony tail.

This is her standard summer attire as what I was wearing is mine
and we were basically wearing identical outfits .

We were both wearing panties and our underarms were smooth shaven
The only major difference was that I didn't have my bra on and hadn't shaved my legs since march.

So I was wondering which one of us is the crossdresser?:heehee:

He says nothing about her being masculine, and openly admits that the shorts are in fact made for women, and that the t-shirts were matching (except for color) unisex t-shirts bought while vacationing together. (He does call it "Male Style" but we all know that the style in question can be bought by both)

[Girliegirl]

Is that a whole different debate? Gender treatment? Well, I tried I guess. I'm no veteran at this but I think everyone is right, this thread needs to rest in peace.

[MandyGG]

Yes it does.... only to dig itself from the grave in a few weeks! LOL!!!!

Edited to add:

You did good, GirlieGirl! I hope we don't have any hard feelings in the future due to this silly topic!

[CloserthanthisGG]

Byassing the argument and answering the OP (mostly because I'm lazy)

Lazy? Or smart? ;)


A man dressing in feminine clothes is seen as lowering himself. (see: heightend discrimination against transwomen over transmen, flamboyant gay men over butch lesbians, men in 'artsy" professions being taunted, ect)

It's our views on masculinity/femininity. It's a bullshit double standard.



I am soooooo free of that double standard. PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE men, men everywhere!! Please start wearing skirts in the workplace. :D:D:D And pretty shoes. I'm not saying that all men should be crossdressers. I'm saying all men should feel free to wear skirts and pretty decorations and hair accessories, and have long sensual hair, and even wear makeup... I think I would pass out from just utter GLEE to see a man, just one man, walking around the office in a dress. ANY man. :D Or even just a tiny bit of eyeliner! I beg them all the time. The closest I've noticed anyone coming to this is my Pakistani friend Amir, who wears beautiful shoes and shirts all the time, and velvet jeans and really sparkly prints and screaming bright colors... He's got long hair too. :) They're still man clothes, obviously. And Western, not Eastern. But he wears the prettiest man clothes I've ever seen, and I do appreciate it. However, his boss probably doesn't. Because he's a good old boy. A man's man. And when my friend first started working here, he cut his hair very short because he noticed that his boss would walk by and say good morning to everyone but him. The day he cut his hair short, his boss came by and complimented him. And then started saying good morning as he walked by from then on. It's subtle sometimes. The discrimination. It's not always so obvious as someone giving one a hard time about wearing a pink shirt. Sometimes, it's your boss silently not acknowledging you.

I told my friend he should be strong and do what he wants, not what the mucky mucks and the toffs of the world want. and wear what he wants to pave the way for others. He's grown his hair back to a little past his ears now. It breaks my heart to think that such a simple thing could possible affect his salary or future promotions. But that's the world men live in now. Sorry. I had to vent again.



You nailed it Kaitlyn. Men look downright ridiculous in a dress without the hair, boobs, shaved allover and makeup. And then, many still look ridiculous trying to look like a woman. Women on the other hand still look great in anything they wear. Now add the sexual aspect of it and it makes sense it's not the same as how women are perceived wearing whatever they want to wear.

Awwww, now that's a matter of opinion. I think there are a pretty good number of men who would look fantastic in dresses even without all the lady jazz. But I hear that I'm pretty singular in my thinking this. Which makes me a sad panda. :'(

[ReineD]

The trouble with a free and open approach, Closer, is that not everyone is an island unto themselves. They want and need their families and their jobs. Unfortunately we do live in a world that does not embrace cross-gender expression with open arms. And even FtMs experience bias and lose families when they transition. I dare say it is easier in some circles more than others, and perhaps in some age-groups, but we still have a long way to go.

[CloserthanthisGG]

The trouble with a free and open approach, Closer, is that not everyone is an island unto themselves. They want and need their families and their jobs. Unfortunately we do live in a world that does not embrace cross-gender expression with open arms. And even FtMs experience bias and lose families when they transition. I dare say it is easier in some circles more than others, and perhaps in some age-groups, but we still have a long way to go.

The world may not have open arms, but I do. And that's a start. My biggest point there was that the world may not be ready for it, isn't ready for it, but I am. People's employers may not be ready, like my friend's boss, but I am.

This culture, the Western one, doesn't accept much outward and visible expression out of men at all usually. And I think the root of the problem.

[ReineD]

Well, I think it's wonderful that you are. :) I am too as are all the other supportive partners here.

But, people have families, bills to pay, mouths to feed, kids to put through college. Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but when I see posts advising CDers to go to work wearing dresses and makeup, it makes me a little nervous because I worry that some poor soul out there might be reading this and become so caught up in the spirit of the moment, he might well do that and risk losing his job. Or, he might get very angry and depressed that the awful people at work (or his wife) do not embrace this with open arms like the members at crossdressers.com, and resentments might build to the point of creating serious issues.

I agree, it's fun to post supportive feelings and get caught up in "what ifs". But there can be hidden dangers in this too, for some people.

I'm just being overly protective I guess.

[Badtranny]

This culture, the Western one, doesn't accept much outward and visible expression out of men at all usually. And I think the root of the problem.

Closer, I always love your point of view and I usually agree. This time is no exception, I think it would be great to live in a world where men can openly wear feminine styles. I totally understand that people like to express themselves in different ways and fashion is a great way to do it. We both (if not all) agree that society sucks but we also have to acknowledge that brave and vibrant people are needed to help break open the minds of the general populace. Change is slow and awkward but we need to be careful not to accept and endorse the various claims of victim-hood that pop up now and again. We should instead just listen quietly to those that complain while remaining secret, and celebrate loudly the brave souls who are wearing color in a black and white world.

[Lorileah]

Now I am confused why adding makeup and hair makes a difference. Women do the same thing to enhance the look. There are people who cover the whole spectrum of how they look and dress. Comfort in a piece of clothing is good but when you start saying that crossdressing is when you go beyond that I have to take exception. This will lead to the argument that IF a woman does not wear make up but waers her BF's shirt and jeans is she crossdressing?

I stick with my feeling that the clothing is just that, clothing but I think some GG's see the extra as the part they have concerns about. Why? Why would make up be any different than clothing? And why would a man wanting make up be anything different than a woman who does not. This is getting way too convoluted. I don't see make up and wigs and perfumes on a male than they are on a female. They are in fact used for the same purpose, to enhance or add to a presentation. Nothing more nothing less. Some females like to wear a lot of make up and heels, some like tennies and sweats. Guys can be the same right?

[joanna marie]

As the originator of the OP , I am amazed at the direction this has taken

My intent was as a Tongue in cheek observation,
not a philosophical discussion of cross dressing and society

I'm sorry if I inadvertently opened old wounds on a sore subject

[ReineD]

My intent was as a Tongue in cheek observation,
not a philosophical discussion of cross dressing and society

Oh, you don't know our members. lol. Anything for a rousing discussion! :D

[Lorileah]

As the originator of the OP , I am amazed at the direction this has taken

My intent was as a Tongue in cheek observation,
not a philosophical discussion of cross dressing and society

I'm sorry if I inadvertently opened old wounds on a sore subject

Geez I don't even remember the OP. Was it the one where two guys walk into a bar?

Inadvertent or not..look at the post count. You got people started :)

[CloserthanthisGG]

... but we also have to acknowledge that brave and vibrant people are needed to help break open the minds of the general populace. Change is slow and awkward but we need to be careful not to accept and endorse the various claims of victim-hood that pop up now and again. We should instead just listen quietly to those that complain while remaining secret, and celebrate loudly the brave souls who are wearing color in a black and white world.


Aww, thanks Melissa!! <3<3

Brave and vibrant people are what is always needed when change is desired. I so love how you what you just said! It reminds me of Tom Robbins, who is one of my favourite authors. Here are some things he has said.

“Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it has been sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has been playful, rebellious, and immature.”

I celebrate the playful, rebellious, and immature. This is not said just in fun support. This is my mantra. Maybe it works for me because I'm a girl. But it should work for everyone. But I throw nerf fruit at people in meetings when they say something I don't like. With a smile. I wear costumes to work. I am an IT Business Analyst for an insurance company. I've been involved in project management in IT for around 10 years. I have no degree. And I don't care what people think. I smile at everyone, and genuinely. I fight for things I believe in because if I lost my job over them, it's not as important to me as feeling as though I am honest with myself, and happy. If I lost my job, because I am fun and immature and rebellious by nature, it wouldn't be a big deal to me. I'll survive. Maybe I won't take as many trips to fun places... but i could live in an RV in a trailer park and be as happy as I am today, no issues.

Losing my grandma, my sister, or Lisia though. Different story. If I was afraid of that happening, well... I wouldn't be so bold.


But, take that with a grain of salt. I may have a personality disorder. :D Some people live their lives in boxes. Some people think outside the box. Some people are not even aware of the existence of boxes sometimes. I'm the latter, and that makes me a bit crazy probably. Some would say definitely. I only follow rules if they have reasons and I know them.

But I'm happy.

"I’m acquainted with a, uh, gentleman who claims that the extent to which a society focuses on the needs of its lowest common denominator is the extent to which that society’ll be mired in mediocrity. Whereas, if we would aim the bulk of our support at the brightest, most talented, most virtuous instead, then they would have the wherewithal to solve a lot of our problems, to uplift the whole culture, enlighten it or something, so that eventually there wouldn’t be so many losers and weaklings impeding evolution and dragging the whole species down. He claims that martyrs like you just perpetuate human misery by catering to it. He believes individuals have to take responsibility for their own lives and accept the consequences of their choices." More Tom Robbins.


Now I agree with all of that. What it comes down to is "how important is it to an individual that things be a'changin'?" You have to rank things in your life. Priorities. If you love your wife and kids and families and you know they would hate it if you were publicly more feminine and less masculine... And you know that it would possibly result in a job loss (which is likely at this point) or a divorce or a suicide attempt or anything hurtful... Then keeping them happy is probably way more important than wearing what you want to wear. It totally outranks this freedom and that is fine and understandable and even admirable as a self sacrifice. I see this on here by some very very admirable folks.

But if it isn't, then what's the point of keeping the status quo? Things don't change on their own. There are things I believe. And then there are things I BELIEVE. And i BELIEVE in accepting people for who they are. That's not all about how they look, either. Looks are surface stuff. But expression of yourself should not be limited without good reason (and yes there are good reasons, like mentioned above.)

The world needs more change makers in general. I have a deeply unsettled feeling around acceptance of things that we dislike that is almost as unsettling as my discomfort around really wealthy people. Even if they're nice. :) Even if it's just accepting that people are going to use disposable coffee cups at work even when they've been given two really nice reusable ones for free. They're lazy and would rather just get a new throw away use once and destroy cup than wash the darn nice one. UGH. But I voice my displeasure at this. Even to my friends. Grrr. I am not perfect. I have yet to remember to bring my reusable glass straw when I go to a restaurant. But I try. I try to set an example for the change I wish to see in the world.

My favorite part of the movie "Avatar" was when the girl says "I see you." and all that it meant when she said it. My favorite part of life is "Seeing people".

That was, I believe, the most disjointed and long post I have ever made. Hahhahah! Live, love and be happy!!!

[ReineD]

I just wish that my sons could be OK with knowing that my SO is who she is. When we are out, I'm always afraid that someone they know will recognize me. :sad:

It's stressful. But, I do my best to file that away somewhere so that we can just enjoy ourselves. It would be decidedly better if we lived in a world that understood cross-gender expression. But maybe in such a world there would be no gendered clothing at all since there would be no conventions to adhere to. Everyone would be free to express who they are. What effect would this have on cross-genders? Would they still be cross-genders? :)

[Simply Joslyn]

I just wish that my sons could be OK with knowing that my SO is who she is. When we are out, I'm always afraid that someone they know will recognize me. :sad:

It's stressful. But, I do my best to file that away somewhere so that we can just enjoy ourselves. It would be decidedly better if we lived in a world that understood cross-gender expression. But maybe in such a world there would be no gendered clothing at all since there would be no conventions to adhere to. Everyone would be free to express who they are. What effect would this have on cross-genders? Would they still be cross-genders? :)
I felt I wanted to answer that, to me no but atleast we would be free, and why would we need to be I mean its great that that is what we are, but without the boundary without the label we wouldn't be set out as different or foreign. Sure we would essentially lose our uniqueness, but at the same time we would lose the worry, the self hate at times, and the need to purge it all. The fight for once would be over, and now I'm starting to feel sad over this cause its building a strange feeling in me.

[Babeba]

A gg throws on full camo, facemask, boots goes deer hunting, sets up atreestand, draws her bow and kills a deer and enjoys doing it. Starts doing it any time she has the opportunity to go. That woman is being masculine and will hate not being treated as one of the guys. She will not be convinced by society that she has a problem and needs a therapist to find the cause or help her to come to terms with herself.

I have to admit, that I'm not a hunter. Yet. I have gone fishing (something you mentioned in a previous post) and I didn't do it because I wanted to be manly and so I searched for something to make me so.

I DO want to go hunting at some point - because if I find myself unable to hunt to get my own food, I don't think I ought to be forcing others to kill in order to tempt my palate. I am okay with eating fish (I've caught my own meals before) and okay with eating birds (not that I killed it - but I have fed a dead chick to a rehabilitating hawk, and I was alright watching it eat in my gloved hand). It has nothing at all to do with gender, and a lot with feeling at peace with my place on this Earth and its sustainability.

I would enjoy knowing where my food came from, and I'd feel proud in my ability to feed myself; I don't think I would enjoy extinguishing life for the sake of gender expression? I wouldn't do it whenever I had the opportunity, I would do it when my freezer was getting empty, and when doing so would not cause a strain on the population. Conservation is a value I share with many other people (including hunters - did you know Ducks Unlimited started as a hunting organization and are now one of the biggest wetland protectors in North America?) I know there are other people who are into it for sport and for 'trophies' - and, well, their licensing money goes into regulatory budgets, scientific studies and conservation officers to keep illegal poaching from ruining nature for everyone. (Dear Stephen Harper: this is how it's supposed to work. Please stop being a tool about suppressing science and cutting conservation budgets. kthxbye.)

I think if you're a hunter, and you've seen female hunters (or shooters) out, and seen them get annoyed at 'not being treated as one of the guys' - it's more like, we want to be treated as a person and not a novelty toy. It gets old REAL quick. I haven't noticed it on archery ranges quite so much, but definitely more so on rifle ranges... some guys can be total douchebags, which has NOTHING to do with gender and EVERYTHING to do with those individuals being stinking bags of douching liquids. :D

[ReineD]

A gg throws on full camo, facemask, boots goes deer hunting, sets up atreestand, draws her bow and kills a deer and enjoys doing it. Starts doing it any time she has the opportunity to go. That woman is being masculine and will hate not being treated as one of the guys. She will not be convinced by society that she has a problem and needs a therapist to find the cause or help her to come to terms with herself.

Thanks for quoting this, Babs, I hadn't seen it.

Girliegirl, using your argument, does this mean that dads who change their babies' diapers, give them bottles & baths, cook meals in tandem with their wives, etc, are in denial about being women and they need a therapist's help to realize this? What about all the single dads? What about men who are flight attendants, primary school teachers, nurses or physician assistants?

Getting back to your argument, what's a girl supposed to wear when she's out hunting? Surely not dresses and heels. Is a GG in denial about being a male because she likes sports? Fast cars? Math? Chess? Or when she gets an MBA and rises up the ladder to become the president of a company?

[Jenniferathome]

You are. It's not just the clothes, it's the act. In this case while the clothes may be identicle, I'll bet your wife never wants to wear boxers and get a buzz cut. This argument as been beaten to death here,"women wear pants therefore....," but it's nonsense. We all know what crossdressing is, our wives don't crossdress.

[Girliegirl]

No, I am saying that clothing for men is not what makes masculinity. For a woman to get the feeling of being masculine would not come from a certain look. Guys chose almost randomly what shirt and pants for the day, thinking of weather, functionality for the days job, and little to no thought put into style. All my tshirts are cut identically and they all go with all my jeans. Hair styles are short and easy. Socks..... Who even cares? done. there is no ideological masculine look that men are trying to acheive. some women and cding men are going for a specific ideological feminine look. Accentuate features, add to certain areas. Women transform themselves in a very similar way that cds transform them selves. Which is half the fun. They call it getting dolled up. And no reine, I do not think that men feeding and changes babies is a form of femininity, but obviously I'm open minded enough and may be in the minority amongst older general populations on thinking that way. And the rifle range douche baggery mentioned before is a display of male dominance.... Also more important to feeling masculinity then clothing.

[Girliegirl]

Also reine, I forgot to add, no there would not need to be a therapist involved in women doing anything inherently masculine. With the exception of having a desire to actually be a man. I also want to add that to dress as the manlyest man possible is to dress as something.... Occupational that is. Lumber jack, firefighter, etc.... Etc..... Otherwise your simply wearing jeans and a shirt.

[Marleena]

As the originator of the OP , I am amazed at the direction this has taken

My intent was as a Tongue in cheek observation,
not a philosophical discussion of cross dressing and society

I'm sorry if I inadvertently opened old wounds on a sore subject


Lol..this happens quite often, it just turned into a lively "debate".:D

[Foxglove]

As the originator of the OP , I am amazed at the direction this has taken

My intent was as a Tongue in cheek observation,
not a philosophical discussion of cross dressing and society


Once you let the genie out of the bottle . . .

[BRANDYJ]

I would not be attracted to a woman that crossdresses. With that said, a woman wearing a man's white dress shirt and jeans is another story. Women can wear some articles of men's clothing and never be considered a crossdresser. But pack the pants, tape down the chest, glue on a beard or mustache, get a buzz haircut etc. To me, a woman is not crossdressing unless she is trying to look like a man... as do trans-women. A beautiful woman can wear anything and still look beautiful, sexy and feminine. Can't say the same for men.

[MandyGG]

I would not be attracted to a woman that crossdresses. With that said, a woman wearing a man's white dress shirt and jeans is another story. Women can wear some articles of men's clothing and never be considered a crossdresser. But pack the pants, tape down the chest, glue on a beard or mustache, get a buzz haircut etc. To me, a woman is not crossdressing unless she is trying to look like a man... as do trans-women. A beautiful woman can wear anything and still look beautiful, sexy and feminine. Can't say the same for men.

My husband and I spoke about this last night.... conversation went like this:

Mandy: "I am going to go make myself look like a man. Get some tape and a jock strap...maybe even a fake beard."
Audrey: "Ok. Go for it"
Mandy: "You would still love me, right?"
Audrey: "Yes"
Mandy:"You would still find me attractive and want to have sex with me, right?"
SILENCE....
Mandy: "You would have to! Because, I have to do it for you!"
SILENCE.....

[BRANDYJ]

My husband and I spoke about this last night.... conversation went like this:

Mandy: "I am going to go make myself look like a man. Get some tape and a jock strap...maybe even a fake beard."
Audrey: "Ok. Go for it"
Mandy: "You would still love me, right?"
Audrey: "Yes"
Mandy:"You would still find me attractive and want to have sex with me, right?"
SILENCE....
Mandy: "You would have to! Because, I have to do it for you!"
SILENCE.....

LOL Mandy! I would go silent too! Why can't we face a simple fact. The woman's body is beautiful and a man's body is well...um, shale I say a whole lot less attractive.
Mandy, the only thing you said that might have been said better was,"You would have to! Because, I have to do it for you!". I would hope you mean that you do it for him because you love him and want to do it because of that alone.
Come to think of it, I love my SO so much that IF she wanted to dress and look like a man, I'd like to think I'd do it for her simply because I want her happy and I love her. But I'd sure hope it did not include anything permanent, like a buzz haircut! If she wanted to do this on a lark or just every now and then, I think I could deal with it.....I think...gulp!

[Lorileah]

My husband and I spoke about this last night.... conversation went like this:

Mandy: "I am going to go make myself look like a man. Get some tape and a jock strap...maybe even a fake beard."
Audrey: "Ok. Go for it"
Mandy: "You would still love me, right?"
Audrey: "Yes"
Mandy:"You would still find me attractive and want to have sex with me, right?"
SILENCE....
Mandy: "You would have to! Because, I have to do it for you!"
SILENCE.....

MEN! I swear. What part was he confused about? After you take everything off...you are still YOU. Sometimes I think many men run on an 8 bit processor with 67KB memory and they lock up when they get a file that they haven't seen before.

[MandyGG]

It is absolutely that I do it for him because I love him! He knows that!! I would hope that he loved me enough to do it for me... but, luckily for him, I have no interest! LOL!

Edited to add:


MEN! I swear. What part was he confused about? After you take everything off...you are still YOU. Sometimes I think many men run on an 8 bit processor with 67KB memory and they lock up when they get a file that they haven't seen before.

That was the most nerd-ly awesome thing I have heard all day!

[ReineD]

Guys chose almost randomly what shirt and pants for the day, thinking of weather, functionality for the days job, and little to no thought put into style.

You really do need to expand your horizons! :)

My son is 18. Last week he got $100 pair of shoes that he is extremely proud of, so much so that he wears a gard inside the shoe so as not to depress the top. He also got new shirts, new shorts. He wants to blend into his own environment (he is, after all, a student) but he cares how his clothes fit, where they fall, and he doesn't like to wear clashy things. He is not unusual. His older brother is now ensconced in his career and he pays a great deal of attention to his shirts, sweaters, slacks, jackets, etc. He takes pride in his appearance and he enjoys being attractive to women. :)

It's true that they don't spend the rest of the day fussing with themselves in front of a mirror after they are dressed, but then neither to I nor my girlfriends. lol

[Badtranny]

You really do need to expand your horizons! :)

LOL I so agree with this.

Some of these guys act like there's only one pair of pants and one shirt available at the mall. Frankly I think most of them just lack style.

[ReineD]

No, I didn't mean that Girlygirl should go out and revamp her male wardrobe. I meant she should acknowledge there are lots of guys who dress for more than utilitarian purposes and I used my sons, whom I consider to be average, as an example of men who do care how they look. :)

[ReineD]

Quoting history is fine, but when you get into men "accepting" that women should have all these rights, it gets a little too patriarchal for me. :)

No harm done though, we're just stating our opinions.

As to women using fashion to deceive, I rather look at it as using fashion to entice. Fundamentally we're all wired to attract each other for mating purposes, and there is competition to deal with. Even men show their best sides when they're dating. What about the guy with the sports car that he considers to be the "babe magnet"? Or the guy who puts on after-shave, and who struts his stuff, puts on his best duds, and swaggers and flexes his muscles? It's all done to attract the opposite sex, in the same way that women enhance the things about themselves that men are attracted to. lol

Edit Oh, and don't be so sure that the more natural women (or men) don't attract each other. They most certainly do, there are all kinds of people in this world who are turned on by different things.

[Delila]

Women's shape is considerably more attractive to most people than men's shape. I personally think this is the primary reason that women can get away wearing anything they want no matter who it was made for. I also hold the strong belief that a person should not be judged by what they are wearing but by what kind of person they are. Discrimination of outward appearance is still discrimination. The reality is that we all need to learn to stop judging people by what they look like and make an effort to get to know people for who they are. Of course this will never happen simply because all of society needs to have some way to judge a person at a glance it is an evolutionary leftover that really came from the need to differentiate people of different tribes for safety.

[Foxglove]

You really do need to expand your horizons! :)

My son is 18. Last week he got $100 pair of shoes that he is extremely proud of,



LOL I so agree with this.

Some of these guys act like there's only one pair of pants and one shirt available at the mall. Frankly I think most of them just lack style.

Interesting comments, girls. This is one charge I'd have to plead guilty to. I've never in my life been interested in man clothes, couldn't care less what I cover myself with if it has to be some form of man clothes. I've never done the least little thing to enhance whatever degree of "masculine beauty" I might have.

Of course, this just might have something to do with the fact that I personally am TG. My girl clothes interest me tremendously. When going into girl-mode, I make quite an effort to look better. Drab is drab, you know.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Badtranny]

Of course, this just might have something to do with the fact that I personally am TG. My girl clothes interest me tremendously. When going into girl-mode, I make quite an effort to look better. Drab is drab, you know.

I'm not sure I understand this point Anna, every girl I know including me enjoys dressing guys up in nice clothes. I would go shopping with any guy who wanted my help to look stylish. I also never had the disdain for male clothes that many here seem to have. I used to love to dress sharp or even flashy sometimes. My friends would give me endless grief about my crazy colored socks back in the day. I didn't like jockey's either so I wore men's bikini briefs that came in a wide array of pastel colors. It never occurred to me to cross dress to "relax" the feminine feelings. I just dealt with it unsuccessfully in other ways. Basically, I never thought that my guy clothes were the problem, and I think April is right about the CD'ing anyway, it likely would have made me even more unhappy to be stuck in a body I didn't want. There is a near constant obsession with clothes on this forum, they either hate their "drab" clothes or their female clothes embody some kind of healing power. Maybe it's just me, but I just don't get it.

However I totally understand that men might enjoy cross dressing. Just like I always say, it's fun to dress up. I understand how some men might enjoy looking sexy or trying to look like a woman for fun or fetish, but for the life of me I can't understand how wearing a bra under your clothes is somehow relaxing.

[Foxglove]

I really don't know what to tell you, Melissa. I just never had any interest whatsoever in guy's clothes. I've never cared the least bit what I looked like in them. My son is quite different. He'll put time and money and effort into what he wears. He'll worry about what the girls are going to think about his appearance. I never cared in the least.

I put a lot more effort into my female clothes. I wouldn't say they "embody some kind of healing power". Everybody has their own reasons for wearing them. I like them because they express the way I feel about myself. As for underdressing, it's something I'll do on occasion. It's better than nothing if I have no other option. But it's certainly not my preference.

It's one thing I find odd about TGism. Despite the fact that we're all outside society's norms, we have trouble understanding each other. Sometimes I think we don't understand each other any better than cisgender people understand us. I personally have trouble understanding how a man can enjoy crossdressing and yet say that he identifies as a man and is comfortable being one. That's not where I am at all. But I just have to accept that that's where they are. We come in all different varieties and that's just the way it is. I myself don't have any problem with that.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[ReineD]

I've never in my life been interested in man clothes, couldn't care less what I cover myself with if it has to be some form of man clothes. I've never done the least little thing to enhance whatever degree of "masculine beauty" I might have.

That's because you're a CDer! :D

You're not alone here. In fact, a few years ago I started a thread in the M2F asking if the disdain for a well put-together male appearance was a form of rebellion against all things male or something. Most of the respondents said, no, it's just guys being guys who don't care about their appearance because for them clothes are just ways to keep warm or cool.

But, the mistake that most CDers make, IMO, is in thinking that all or most men are like this. The men that I know personally do care about their appearance, especially if they're in the market for girls, or a job, or they just want to give a good impression of themselves. :) My dad cares about his appearance, my brother, my ex, my sons, other men I know, etc. My middle son was shopping for clothes for a job interview and he was texting me pics of shirts, ties, shoes, etc asking my opinion of what I thought went best with what, was this shoe too casual or too old-mannish. And when he had the clothes on later with his shirt freshly washed and ironed, he knew he cut a fine figure and he really felt good about himself. He looked like a guy who turns women's heads even though he was just going for an interview, he knew it and he enjoyed looking this way. :)

It is true there are pockets of men (I think more in the US than other places) who walk around with beer guts and their butt cracks showing, torn jeans, baseball caps, unkempt Tshirts, etc, just as there are women who don't pay attention to fashion. I tend to notice this more in small towns and I understand the lack of priority for fashion when financial resources are tight and everyone else dresses casually. Even then, not everyone in these areas dresses that way. But in more urban areas in this country and certainly in other countries, you do see that the average person takes pride in their appearance.

[Foxglove]

That's because you're a CDer! :D

You're not alone here. In fact, a few years ago I started a thread in the M2F asking if the disdain for a well put-together male appearance was a form of rebellion against all things male or something. Most of the respondents said, no, it's just guys being guys who don't care about their appearance because for them clothes are just ways to keep warm or cool.

Aye, that's what I was saying, Reine. It's because I'm TG. It's an interesting question for me, though: if I weren't TG, would I still be the sort who wouldn't care about his clothing? Just one more question that we'll never have the answer to.


But, the mistake that most CDers make, IMO, is in thinking that all or most men are like this.

No, I've known plenty of guys who cared about their clothes. I just mentioned my son, e.g. That said,


My middle son was shopping for clothes for a job interview and he was texting me pics of shirts, ties, shoes, etc asking my opinion of what I thought went best with what, was this shoe too casual or too old-mannish. And when he had the clothes on later with his shirt freshly washed and ironed, he knew he cut a fine figure and he really felt good about himself. He looked like a guy who turns women's heads even though he was just going for an interview, he knew it and he enjoyed looking this way. :)


This sort of thing absolutely baffles me. Shirts and ties? I couldn't imagine caring what a shirt or a tie looked like. I don't even like ties. In fact I hate them. I've always said that humanity has never invented a more stupid garment than a tie. Although perhaps GG's might counter with such items as girdles and corsets.

The last time I had to go to a funeral I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I actually had a jacket and trousers that were presentable enough to wear. I went looking through my closet and, lo and behold! there they were. I don't know how they got there. I couldn't remember buying them. I couldn't remember ever having worn them, either. But when I asked my family if they'd be OK, they all agreed they were fine. So I put them on. And I suppose I looked fairly good--as good as I'm ever going to look anyway. But I didn't care in the least. And I was glad when I could get out of them. Not for me.

Annabelle

[Girliegirl]

Reine, if women only get dolled up to attract a mate, why do most happily married women get dolled up to go out for an evening, our go to the office every day? It doesn't seem like they are doing it all in an attempt to attract anyone. Also I agree with the others who have said women are naturally just as beautiful and attractive without all the extras.

I find it interesting the differences between cders also. Since I have only up to this point studied or applied my own feelings and excitement/pleasure to find what it is and why i do it. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer like I did just a couple days ago. But another interesting point to make is that my feminine side, I feel, is a lot of the reason I can admit things like that without my ego or pride being crushed. Embracing, not repressing my fem side has made me a more balanced human than the decades I spent completely ignoring it. :-)

Lol, I may have made myself out to be a slob a few posts ago. Im in no way a slob and never have been. When I was dating it was designer everything. High school was the same. But even then, nice pants and shirts all go together. Check your sons wardrobe and you'll probably find there are no outfits.... Most everything will go with everything else.

[ReineD]

Reine, if women only get dolled up to attract a mate, why do most happily married women get dolled up to go out for an evening, our go to the office every day?

It's called, taking pride in one's appearance. :D

Not all the ways of getting dolled up are designed for attracting men. Compare the two following links:

http://www.frenchnovelty.com/mm5/graphics/S10-BGH-C19096.jpg
http://www1.macys.com/shop/product/lauren-by-ralph-lauren-dress-pleated-cocktail-dress?ID=498883&cm_mmc=Google_Feed-_-4-_-34-_-MP434

I don't see the woman in the white dress wearing that if she's married, just to go out with the girls. lol. I do see her wearing this when she is out with her husband though, as a way to make herself appealing to him or possibly making him jealous if she's that sort of girl.

As to office wear, this looks nice, a woman wearing this certainly takes care of herself, but it is not designed to attract a guy like the woman in the white dress:

http://fash55.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Office-Dresses-4.jpg

I have a suit just like that, BTW. I bought it to go to court for my divorce. I wanted to look as "unsexy", yet as professional as I possibly could. :p

[Lorileah]

Reine, if women only get dolled up to attract a mate, why do most happily married women get dolled up to go out for an evening, That's easy they want to attract the mate they already have. Just like when they ask the mate to dress up. It is called reigniting the fire
our go to the office every day? the same reason men wear suits and ties? Because it looks professional? And yes they are trying to attract either the boss' attention or the customer's