Labels: The Black Hole between CD and TS.

[Marleena]

We have a love/hate relationship with labels here that's for sure. Some of us don't seem to fit in anywhere. I have been noticing for a long while that many fit into the "black hole" between CD and TS so I'm posting this.

I have been calling myself TG instead which I know is incorrect but I can easily see many others that fit in here. We are the ones that rather present in girl mode most of the time. We don't care much for guy mode and are using it only for work, family, etc. Perhaps we are not done our journey or in denial or we're just satisfied being at this point. It's not about the clothes anymore but the feeling of being "right" in girl mode.

Anybody else notice this missing label (or category) or am I just overthinking it?

[suzy1]

You have just described me Marleena!

But you are in danger of just trying to invent another label girl. A CDTSM [M is for mixture]
And yes, I think you are over thinking it.

I have the perfect label for me, it’s…………………….me.

Get back in the box girl:eek:

hugs:)

[Sandra1746]

Labels are good if you are sorting colors or biological species but they also divide groups who should be working together. Just because one person feels they have the label XYZ doesn't give them any status over another who has, or self identifies, with YZX. The are certainly used by our opponents to stigmatize us, and work to promote internal division.

I self identify as TG because it is a fairly broad definition and satisfies most people who need labels. However the rigid application and insistence on labels is divisive and counterproductive. We need to work together to a common goal of UNDERSTANDING and ACCEPTANCE. What we call ourselves is far less important.

Just my opinion,
Sandra1746

[Tina B.]

Marleena, now you have gone and done it, we are going to have a talk about what it means to be a CD, TG, or TS, all over again! And what does it all mean anyway?
When I first tried to learn just what I was, the only term I had heard was Transvestite, so I adopted it. Then as I grew older and the inter net came along, I found out it was bad to be a transvestite, so I stopped being one and became a cross dresser.
But Just what is a cross dresser, and just what is a transgendered person, is there a real difference, or just choices with in. I read on here all the time about people that dress for pleasure, it's a hobby, then you hear from someone like Karren Hutton or myself, that will admit to being driven to dress, it's not a choice, it's a deep need that can't be ignored. Are we the same as those that just do it for fun, I don't think so.
I've also found that since I have retired, and have more time, and letestosteroneone, I need to dress a lot more of the time just to keep myself feeling whole. Am I a TS in denial, or a TG, that reached there limit of what they need, or are all of us non TS, just different parts of the same thing, I don't know, but also don't feel CD says it, and TS is more than I want or can have anyway. So maybe there is a place betweeneen, why not, seems I've spent my whole life in between.
Tina B.

[Dawn cd]

One can certainly make a distinction between CD and TS, but there's no point in making too many distinctions. The middle ground is fluid. People move back and forth. And when you look at them closely, there is fluidity even within the TS and CD categories. Instead of focusing on distinctions, I like the stress the things that bring us together: We're all human beings on this journey.

[Krististeph]

Hi Marleena, I agree with you- I think of myself as TG. TS to me means someone who has pretty much made the full transition, and CD means someone who dresses female, but not all the time. The labels are kind of a problem, so i'm happy to use any. On this forum, I'll try to use 'CD' as a general reference to all of us just because the site is called "CrossDressers" (sic), but as we all know, there are SO many increments from someone who likes to wear pantyhose to a full MtF change, as well as various offshoots in other directions.

So me, the term CD pretty much means any of us here on the board, who not only crossdresses in some manner, but who also tries to promote the melding of gender for those who are not satisfied with being either/or.

This is the old can of worms question, but it's quite valid to revive it at regular intervals. Some of our 'veterans' here may get tired of seeing it- but it is like teaching- even if you know the subject to the point you are bored to tears with it- to others it is a new thing, and they should have the benefit of hashing it out like we did, even if there is a faq that covers much of the subject. The discussion is a social thing, eh?

labels are shortcuts- the more descriptive the label, the high the quantity of discreet labels is needed, and thus negates the usefulness of a shorter label as 'short hand'.

-kristi (TG with mostly CD, part time makeup, only occasionally goes out en femme, like to bike ride, run, or rollerblade in colder weather in female gear- being able to bundle up hides the lesser feminine parts of me, sometimes thinks about transitioning, etc.etc.)

[Jilmac]

I never was a big fan of labels. I've lived under the guise of labels my whole life. To me, just being who I am is good enough, if others need to hang a label on me such as "tranny", it's because they don't understand or refuse to comprehend why I enjoy doing what I do. A truly accepting person will not hang a label on someone else but will try to learn more about the person in question.

[Janelle_C]

Just when I thought I had it all figured out now I'm all confused lol. But it is all a little confusing, I thought I knew where I was heading and now I just know, CD, TS, TG. I know its a journey and I need to enjoy the trip.

[terrianncd]

I came to this site some time ago to talk with and get support from others like me. Afterall I have been a (fill in the blank) all my life. Have, like all of us tried to ignore the fact that I am (fill in the blank). Got married, had kids, had others that came first once one has kids. Finally after a lot of years, I met a wonderfull woman who loves both of me and life was good. As I had been a (fill in the blank) all my life I thought I would have a lot to share and be able to help others and myself by being a member here. As one gets older the pressure of not being who you really are takes a toll mentally. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. But here I thought I had found home. Crossdressers.com.... Instead I was blasted in the TG forum because my user name (that I have had for many years) has CD in it. And that my Avatar has me in a wedding dress, therefore I was deemed not a "real" tg and should just go away. Now that photo of me in the dress is just before my wedding in the same dress and it's a flattering photo I thought, thus it was and is my avatar. This drove into such a depression that I considered ending the torture that is life as a (fill in the blank). If I was not accepted at Crossdressers.com then what exactly was I? I believe that in this forum labels should be banned as we would not be here unless we shared a common need, and the site is crossdressers.com afterall. I no longer come here often as now this site represents pain to me. I just can't get past how some here can be so insenstive to others feelings. At a site that should be all about help and support.

Go ahead and blast away....

[Contessa]

Things that make you feel good about yourself cost more than those that don't. Foundation costs less than cosmetic surgery. I don't have to figure it out anymore I am a non transitioning transexual. I use crossdressing to ease the need for surgery. That makes me transgendered. We are all just human beings none having a more greater degree of existence than the other. We live together cause we aren't the same, and we are all we have. We should do things for each other and not for money, cause we're all we've got. We lose us all the time and have to find others to replace them. I believe that people are our greatest resource. Not money. Who we are is just that who we are. It is us who have done this to us. Pitting one against the other for money. What I am makes no difference when I am dead. What have you to say about that which I have told you? Isn't it okay to have many titles so that you don't use them against anyone or yourself. We must all learn to love one another my mother always said and it still holds true.

Tess

[JessHaust]

Yes, everybody hates 'labels', but it is what we humans do, and we have been doing it since the dawn of time. We labeled edible plants and animals as 'Food', we labeled one sex as men the other as woman. It's how we keep things straight in our minds. Are all labels absolutely correct? No, but they still have a purpose.

So the debate goes on, who is a cross-dresser, who is Transgender and who is transexual? The last one is easy. If you feel trapped in the wrong body and want to change it, even if you don't have the means to do so, then you are transexual.
But the other 2 are much less defined. Probably because they are fairly new terms created to help define the once very broad term transvestite. Most modern definitions state that a transgender is anyone presenting themselves as a gender other than the one they were born with. So by that definition I am most definitely Transgender.

I think the sticking point comes down to that phrase 'presenting themselves', what exactly constitutes presenting? For me it means that I go out in public and dress like, walk like and act like a woman. I want people around me to think 'there goes a woman' ( OK I really want them to think 'There goes an attractive woman', but that is another story).

So where does that put the wide range of others here that stretch from wearing panties, sometimes, under their male pants, to those that dress fully, go out but still keep facial hair? I don't know, but I think that if you are going to try and draw the line between a 'Cross-dresser and a transgender, look to that definition and ask yourself 'Am I trying to present myself as a woman?'

Once you have done this, just forget the label and go enjoy yourself!

[Kate Simmons]

Beats me Hon. All of this designation stuff wears me out, so I don't bother with it much. When I think of you, let's say, I think of my friend Marleena. Simple as that for me.:)

[Jennifer in CO]

terriann.. I'll hold the cannon - you pull the cord...we ain't taken no prisioners...
A label is something many women cut out of their clothes....hence why should we try and make us one?

Jenn

[Lesley_Roberta]

Wish I was so lucky to be a TG being told they were a CD or a CD wondering about being a TS.

Until I have it proven I am NOT two distinct people in my head, I suppose I am sharing the body with a male chauvanist pig (well he is :)) and me well I am not him.

So I consider myself living with an old fashioned hetero male chauvanist non CD TG TS ABCDEFG with him wanting about 3 hours a morning doing a time share whereupon he lets me have the controls and then I become a TG ok with becoming a TS on her way to new plumbing as soon as I get the green light so I can be a lesbian in a male shaped body with a female conversion kit. Acronym that if you can :)

My shrink will need to be on top of his game to convince me I am only just a screwed up male with anger management issues. Because I don't think so.

I don't want to 'dress up' any more than my sister does. In other words, give me some place to go to worth doing the make up, doing the legs, wearing uncomfortable heels, and confining lingerie and a freshly ironed outfit. Because I am NOT doing that just to go for a walk so I can confuse the neighbours :) Around the house I likely don't want much more on than Leslie does. Male tshirt or female blouse, I suppose it looks mostly the same. I'd probably wear panties just to hide the nuisance.

Today's fixation was 'why do girls all look so good in shorts?' what is it about the cut of female shorts that makes them able to show off their legs, and yet, I can't find male shorts that do the same. And can I find a nice pair of white shorts in my waist size needs than don't end up being just not quite capris. I want something that shows off my legs. I WANT to show off my legs. I wouldn't mind showing off my ass too I suppose. Been told I have a nice ass by women before (I think they might be insane though :)).

[Kate Simmons]

Well, Lesley, we either have the Jeans (genes) or shorts for this stuff or we don't.:heehee::)

[Foxglove]

I have been calling myself TG instead which I know is incorrect but I can easily see many others that fit in here. We are the ones that rather present in girl mode most of the time. We don't care much for guy mode and are using it only for work, family, etc. Perhaps we are not done our journey or in denial or we're just satisfied being at this point. It's not about the clothes anymore but the feeling of being "right" in girl mode.

Anybody else notice this missing label (or category) or am I just overthinking it?

Good for you, Marleena! A very good question you're asking here.

Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I absolutely love labels. I've been working with them all my life. They warm my heart, they satisfy my mind, they fill my soul. I've spent my life working with and studying various languages, and languages are collections of labels. You have a concept in your mind. It may be an object, an action, an emotion, and you want to express it. We invent labels to do that.

"Car" is a label for an object. "Run" is a label for an action. "Beautiful" is a label for a quality. "Hope" is a label for a feeling. And so on and so on. We couldn't communicate without labels. In fact, the invention of labels was one of the most important steps the human species ever took. In a certain sense, the ability to use labels makes us human.

The beauty of labels is that they are not the end of a process. Rather they are a beginning. Once you've succeeded in identifying a thing and given it a label, you've succeeded in focusing your thinking so that you can go on to explore all the nuances that that label can express. When you work with languages, you get used to this process. It's your bread and butter.

E.g., I'm a member of a language forum. A French person might post a sentence in French and ask us how best to say it in English. Then we English-speakers will start thrashing it out. Various suggestions are made, and quite often a lot of debate will arise over which word or phrase precisely is the best one to use in context. Because each word will carry so many little nuances and feelings that no dictionary can ever explain in detail and that no foreigner can instinctively grasp. Get into languages and you'll be amazed at the almost magical things that your brain can do, immensely complex things that you do that you're not even aware that you're doing. People who never study languages have a hard time appreciating how subtle and sharp the human mind is.

So why this fear of labels? For one thing, we fear that they're limiting. As I've already explained, they're not. Labels are a starting point, not the finish. Because they're abused? Yes. Nasty people often abuse good things. If they don't like a certain group of people, they invent a nasty label for them. Or they take a perfectly innocuous label and turn it into an insult. That's their problem. We shouldn't let nasty people wreck what are perfectly useful tools.

But labels are often beautiful. The most beautiful one I've ever come up with is "Annabelle". I cannot express to you what that label means to me, all that it contains and encapsulates. But there's no need for me to even try. You've all come up with labels for yourselves, labels that say "you", labels that encapsulate all that you find within yourself. You all know what I'm on about here because you've been through the same search for a good label that I have.

So, this is how Marleena views herself: We are the ones that rather present in girl mode most of the time. We don't care much for guy mode and are using it only for work, family, etc. Perhaps we are not done our journey or in denial or we're just satisfied being at this point. It's not about the clothes anymore but the feeling of being "right" in girl mode. And she wants a label for that. Of course, she does, because once she has a good label, she doesn't have to repeat the whole rigamarole every time. One or two little words, and she's got a whole set of ideas in a nutshell. That's what makes labels so useful. And once she's got that label, she can explore that label, and that label might eventually grow so large for all it contains that it becomes inadequate and she'll look for a new one to replace it. Labels, i.e., words are always evolving. They evolve because our thought evolves. I.e., we learn. And that's what the whole game is about, and that's why labels are such useful, marvellous tools.

Lately I've had occasion to contact a couple of organizations for information that involved my situation as a TG person. So I've told them, "I'm Transgender." Being cisgender people themselves, they may not know all the ins-and-outs of the word, but they've got enough basic information to work with. Saying "I'm Transgender" is lot easier than saying "I'm one of those people who . . ." and then go into a whole song and dance, trying to describe what I am.

So, Marleena, I think from your description of yourself, you and I have a lot in common. Lately I've been labelling myself "TGF"--a Third Gender person who presents as female. This label is inadequate because it's incomplete. There are other TG people who present as female, but for different reasons than mine. So I'm searching for a better label. And as I carry on my search, I learn more about myself, what motivates me, what I'm seeking, what I'm hoping for. A label helps me do this because I've learned that a label is nothing to fear.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Kerstin]

I think it's quite simple. If you're not transsexual then you're a man or woman who simply likes to wear the clothes of the opposite gender.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Yes I agree with the love/hate label relationship and that it's too restricting to limit oneself to a particular label with there being so many varations between CD-TS. Which is why I've come up with some additional unemotional labels for that black hole to make everything more confusing.

1. CD-Plus
2. Advanced Level-CD
3. CD-Level A
4. Enhanced CD

[whowhatwhen]

Beef and bean burrito label: Burns after eating

[Anna Lorree]

terriann.. I'll hold the cannon - you pull the cord...we ain't taken no prisioners...
A label is something many women cut out of their clothes....hence why should we try and make us one?

Jenn

Because if a person wants medical treatment for their version of this condition, labels are needed. Thus, at least transsexuals and perchance transgenderists (I know it's an old term, but I think it is still relevant as being between CD and TS) have a very real need for labels as they interact with therapists, medical doctors and insurance companies.

Anna

[*Vanessa*]

Hi Marleena

Labels are for street signs. They are great for getting from point A to B but aren't very good at describing how a girl feels inside. Umbrella terms are great for letting you know what library you are in but does little to describe the section of interest.. lol

Yes I am still here but don't talk much anymore... hum sounds like a song, maybe in the making.. :)

cheers

[carhill2mn]

Marleena, your descrption of yourself also fits me. I consider myself a CD because that "label" is more accurate than the others currently in use.

[DeeJayGram]

I myself consider myself a CD, in that i live as a guy and dress as a girl as much as a I can. And I am gay, cause i like to spend time as a girl with other guys that are dressed or not.

[elizabethamy]

When I first went to this site to try to understand my new habit of crossdressing, I discovered this raging debate...and it seemed that to CD's it was mostly about "the look" - clothes, makeup, shopping, heels, hose...all good things, of course, but those of us who wanted to know why, who were/are tormented to varying degrees by gender dysphoria/identity issues, would call ourselves something else.

The very first thing I read on the first day here when I was just curious about crossdressing was the famous joke (new to me then): "
What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?"
"Two years."

Your mileage may vary...

elizabethamy

[Lesley_Roberta]

Going back to my ole stand by, my ideal perfect label.

I am a 1%er and happy to be one. Because I WILL be in the 1% category if looked at long enough. There's always something, always a detail that fouls an otherwise popular category.

I am not saying I am special, I am just saying I almost likely will end up not fitting in with a group easily.

I am a 1%er among every group I have encountered. Wargamers, role gamers, model makers, writers, wood workers, anime fans, history nuts and science enthusiasts.

It's not easy being the odd person out in a group of 100 people. Not easy telling 99 people you disagree.

[whowhatwhen]

Serious post:
I think, for me anyway, a label will only be important during the self-discovery phase and then it becomes moot.
It's not worth stressing over.

I know I don't identify with men, or with crossdressers; beyond that therapy is required to see where I am.

[Bree-asaurus]

Transgender is that 'black hole' you are referring to.


Because if a person wants medical treatment for their version of this condition, labels are needed. Thus, at least transsexuals and perchance transgenderists (I know it's an old term, but I think it is still relevant as being between CD and TS) have a very real need for labels as they interact with therapists, medical doctors and insurance companies.

Anna

I agree with Anna. And I would like to sort of quote what I said in a thread the other day:

"I think the basic labels we have are fine... and I think the one that's really important is 'transsexual' because that diagnosis is required for transsexuals to be able to get the medical and legal support they need.

If I was a cross dresser or transgendered, I wouldn't care WHERE I fit in the spectrum... I wouldn't need to be a subset of cross dresser or transgender... who cares? I would just be myself and screw the labels."

Crossdresser is an otherwise cisgendered person who likes to wear cloths of the opposite gender. There are no gender identity issues.

Transsexual is someone who doesn't care about the cloths... their internal gender (their brain) does not match their external sex (their body). Their sex and their gender are polar opposites.

Transgender is basically an all-encompasing term that describes anyone who does not fit the current gender norms in society. So if you are a CD, a TS, or feel like you are somewhere between male and female, you are TG.

I am very picky about being labeled transsexual, because I NEED that label to describe who I am so I can get the appropriate treatment, medications, gender change markers, surgeries, etc. I don't think any other labels matter. If I was say... 30% female and 70% male, why would I need a specific label for me? What good would it do me? Calling myself transgender would describe me just fine. If you're in a social setting or on a forum and someone demands to know what category you are in, tell them transgender or tell them to F off. Who cares?

Labels are good when they help you find the support you need. Labels are bad when people take things too personally and want to start telling other people what they are or are not.

If you're still not sure where you fall, then don't worry about it. If you don't know if your TG or TS, THAT'S OKAY. Just keep exploring and if necessary, the labels will come. Just be yourself and be happy about it.

EDIT: But I'm pretty sure that the majority of the people on this forum aside from the GGs are transgender, cross dressers or transexuals... despite how unique some people think they are :P

[Sarah553]

l consider myself as a woman with boy parts.
I shop cook clean nuture cater please and so
on. I love wearing feminine cloths as it makes
me feel whole. I do so in secrecy so I would
label myself as the invisible woman. But a
lonely one.
Sarah

[ReineD]

Anybody else notice this missing label (or category) or am I just overthinking it?

It's not a "missing" category, so much as a lack of proper descriptors. Just about everyone is "TG" in this forum. lol.

I don't know how true this is, but don't Eskimos have many names for different types of snow? Years ago when there weren't any forums or they were just starting out, most people believed the CDing was just about putting on a dress and if someone wanted what they called a "sex change" operation then they were TS, but more importantly, people had a hard time understanding anyone who wasn't at either end of the trans spectrum. We know a lot more about this now, have a look at the gender page in Wikipedia and also the 156 source material references at the bottom of the page. Unfortunately the words that we use haven't grown and expanded with our knowledge of the gender spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

Honestly, the terms "crossdresser" and "transgender" are catch-all terms for a variety of different expressions, needs, and motives for cross-gender expression. Just saying someone is a CD or a TG is no more descriptive of their gender identity than the terms "francophone" or "anglophone" specify nationality. The term "transsexual" is more specific, it indicates someone who completely and totally self-identifies as the gender opposite than birth, but even then there are layers (and disputes) depending on whether someone wants or can afford HRT or SRS.

Another huge problem: different groups of people have their very own personal opinions of what the very scarce individual words mean based on popular usage, and they either adopt these ambiguous general terms as describing their own particular situations, or they assign those words to people who are not like them. lol. Also, meanings unfortunately become popular through usage without people taking the time to inform themselves of research. :p

In order to get rid of this "black hole" you speak of, people need to identify themselves better than just using one word, until our vocabulary that describes the various major categories of the trans community has expanded and has been universally accepted.

A pretty good start in identifying the major layers of Trans is Harry Benjamin's six-layer gender scale. He devised this in 1966, more is known now and also some of the terms have changed through popular usage, but even then there are overlaps between the layers for some people:


The Benjamin Gender Scale: http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg


The Kinsey Sexual Orientation Scale: http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/KINS-774322.GIF
(to correlate the third row in the Benjamin Gender scale)

[Marleena]

It's not a "missing" category, so much as a lack of proper descriptors. Just about everyone is "TG" in this forum. lol.

A pretty good start in identifying the major layers of Trans is Harry Benjamin's six-layer gender scale. He devised this in 1966, more is known now and also some of the terms have changed through popular usage, but even then there are overlaps between the layers for some people:


The Benjamin Gender Scale: http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg


The Kinsey Sexual Orientation Scale: http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/KINS-774322.GIF
(to correlate the third row in the Benjamin Gender scale)


Reine I posted the Benjamin scale the other day and the majority of people don't seem to agree with it either.lol. *pulls hair out*.

[Valerie Nova]

I think that instead of referring them as "labels", it's more accurate to refer to them as "categories". Most people organize their understanding of the world according to various categories. It's a useful way of understanding things, because if we learn about something new, once we find out that it's part of a category that we already know something about, we can immediately apply all this other information that we already have learned about objects in that category. Thus, our brains become more efficient, since they have to store less information. Of course, many of our problems today arise directly from people's tendency to think categorically. Racism, for example. If we meet a person of a particular race, we often immediately apply every characteristic of that person's race, as we understand it, to them, in order to be more efficient. So efficiency isn't always a good thing. But at the opposite end of the spectrum, you have information overload, where people get too bogged down in details to be able to make decisions efficiently.

As far as being transgendered goes, everyone's brain differentiates into male and female (or more accurately, masculine and feminine) unevenly and differently. And that's why we have this crazy, multidimensional spectrum of human sexuality.

[ReineD]

Reine I posted the Benjamin scale the other day and the majority of people don't seem to agree with it either.lol. *pulls hair out*.

I know they don't agree with it! :facepalm:

This is what the majority of the membership in this forum tries to do:

180245

This is what Benjamin attempts to do, allowing for variances and overlap, and if people can focus on the content and not what "words" were used in 1966:

180246

And THIS is what it really looks like:

180247

In my view, Benjamin is a hell of a lot closer than the simple, "CD" / "TG" / "TS" that members here seem so tenatious in hanging onto. :p

OK, I know! Let's all of us not try to make sense of any of this at all! Let's just all call ourselves cumquats, or better yet, just tell everyone there is no need for labels and expect the cisworld to intuitively understand what being trans is all about! They'll understand much better that way, and the members in this community will be able to be themselves, unfettered in public all the sooner! :D

[Foxglove]

This is what the majority of the membership in this forum tries to do . .

This is what Benjamin attempts to do, allowing for variances and overlap, and if people can focus on the content and not what "words" were used in 1966. . .



And THIS is what it really looks like. . .


In my view, Benjamin is a hell of a lot closer than the simple, "CD" / "TG" / "TS" that members here seem so tenatious in hanging onto. :p

OK, I know! Let's all of us not try to make sense of any of this at all! Let's just all call ourselves cumquats, or better yet, just tell everyone there is no need for labels and expect the cisworld to intuitively understand what being trans is all about! :D

Excellent post, Reine! It demonstrates why I personally am having trouble getting to grips with myself. Keeping things simple often makes them meaningless.

But instead of a cumquat, can I be a mango? Please?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Roberta Marie]

A couple of years ago, while in an online support group trying to figure out what or who I am, I found a term that seemed to describe me in 2 words. Dual Gendered. I read those words and a bright sun beam shown through my office window and a choir of angels chorused from above. Two genders in the same person, both masculine and feminine at the same time. That's me. Not completely masculine, not completely feminine, but in the middle, both.

[Valerie Nova]

A couple of years ago, while in an online support group trying to figure out what or who I am, I found a term that seemed to describe me in 2 words. Dual Gendered. I read those words and a bright sun beam shown through my office window and a choir of angels chorused from above. Two genders in the same person, both masculine and feminine at the same time. That's me. Not completely masculine, not completely feminine, but in the middle, both.
"Androgynous" or "androgyne" is the word I've heard used to describe that. Basically androgynous is to transgendered what bisexual is to gay. On one hand, the word tends to bring up images of certain pop singers, but on the other hand it does kind of hit the nail on the head. Rather than place myself in a category, I try and say things like that I have issues with gender identity, or that I have a strong female component to my personality, that I have an occasional need to express. Thinking about my own complicated sexuality, I've started deliberately avoiding naming categories at all, and focus on describing the elements of my personality. For example, instead of referring to yourself as "bisexual", say, perhaps, "I'm mostly sexually attracted to women, but occasionally I'll feel attraction to another guy." Or instead of referring to yourself as "transgendered", describe in detail the various masculine and feminine components of your personality. This may not be as quick and efficient, but typically when you're discussing details of your private sexuality, the person you're talking to isn't rushed for time. :)

[NathalieX66]

This is a very important post for me. I'll speak as someone who has met crossdressers and transsexuals ( both pre-op & post-op).

I happened to start dressing in girl's/women's clothes since I was somewhere between ages 5 and 7, I can't emember exactly when. Thy were my sisters', then later on in life it moved to my mom's clothes. There was no pivotal moment that changed me into a crossdresser. In my case every moment was an opportunity.....to be me. Even as a teenager, when my hormones were raging full blown, I fantasized about not just sex with a girl, but being a girl, with all the fashion trappings. Girls had all the freedom to express themselves, and it made me sick with envy. One day, it's jeans and sneakers, the next day it's a mini skirt and long dangly earrings. I was just simply jealous, mainly because a little thing called gender got in the way.
I had a fantasy when I was 14 or 15 that I was a test student in a nearby private all girls school near the private prep school I went to, where I was dressed every day in the girls' school uniform dress kilt and ankle socks/penny loafers, and long hair, where no one ever knew I was a guy.

I do not suffer from Gender Identity Disorder (GID.....it's the real deal) like some ,actually several, that I have met, and became friends with , I just merely don't care for the tight rigid parameters of gender expression that our society established.

Yet, those who are transitioning to the other gender, or who have completed their transition, I still feel a sense of envy....mainly because you are experiencing a sensation, a place , or a stage of something that I'm not . Therefore I feel left out. I still have a strong guy identity, and I love that part of me.

Someone who is mentally transsexual at whatever their stage they're at, they do not feel the sense of connection witht their birth gender the way I feel I do. But sometimes it makes me feel like second class amongst the TG crowd, even though I should not feel this way. I feel like I'm missing out on something.

I'm jst glad that I have been fortunate to step outside my front door and go in the deepest of public environments, dressed in the gender of my choice, an still get a decent and satisfsactory amount of repect in public. Not so bad.

[Marleena]

This is a very important post for me. I'll speak as someone who has met crossdressers and transsexuals ( both pre-op & post-op).

Someone who is mentally transsexual at whatever their stage they're at, they do not feel the sense of connection witht their birth gender the way I feel I do. But sometimes it makes me feel like second class amongst the TG crowd, even though I should not feel this way. I feel like I'm missing out on something.

I'm jst glad that I have been fortunate to step outside my front door and go in the deepest of public environments, dressed in the gender of my choice, an still get a decent and satisfsactory amount of repect in public. Not so bad.

Nathalie you are one of about a dozen of the girls that immediately came to mind when I posted this. A great number of us are beyond CD but maybe not TS based on the categories here. Just so you know.:)

Oh..and thanks for all of the replies everybody, I appreciate it.:)

[sissystephanie]

I don't like labels, but I am going to try to answer some questions about them.

Definitions: CD - a person who wears the clothing of the opposite sex, Can be either male or female.
TG - a person who not only wears the clothing of the opposite sex, but who thinks that they may be the opposite sex.
TS - a person who thinks that they are the opposite sex so strongly that they may resort to sugery to become that sex.

If you are a crossdresser, you automatically are a TG. You are only a TS if you feel so strongly about being the opposite sex that you want to become that sex no matter what! All of us CD's on this forum are TGs and some of us are TSs. But those labels mean nothing, the important thing is that we are all people. And people are different!! What I wear is my business, and as long as I am decently covered it is nobody else's business!! I really wish we could just forget about labels altogether!!

[Valerie Nova]

I would add to that TV (transvestite) - someone who wears clothes of the opposite sex day-to-day, in public. That is someone who is genuinely uncomfortable wearing the clothing of their birth sex. All TVs are CDs, but the reverse isn't true, since most crossdressers are fine dressing up occasionally and are not uncomfortable in the clothes of their birth sex.

[Debglam]

I agree that labels are just that, labels and don't really provide much help. Just look at the confusion you see on this forum. There is some groundwork on what you are describing however Marleena. Look for the term "middle path" in regards to transgender. (I have also seen the term "bigendered" to refer to the same thing.) I've seen this terminology refer to TS who choose not to transition and to individuals who, like myself, feel a gender "variance" (whatever the hell that means) at the core of their being but not to the extent where they feel the need to transition. These people feel some degree of comfort/discomfort in BOTH genders. Of course this is all based on concurring that there is a gender binary.

Now this is just my opinion, with NO value judgement of any kind!, which you are welcome to disagree with:

If it is just about the clothes and when you dress you identify as a man dressing in female clothes, then it is "crossdressing." Beyond this, if you dress to "be" the opposite gender, to alleviate some discomfort level with your gender assigned at birth, then it is something else. Again my opinion but I see it as a sliding scale based on the level of your discomfort (GID?) and what you need to do to alleviate this discomfort. This scale would end at the high side with transsexuals who have such a high level of discomfort that they HAVE to transition to the extent that they can to their "internal" gender. Reine's graphics (above) kind of capture what I'm getting at.

[Anna Lorree]

Reine I posted the Benjamin scale the other day and the majority of people don't seem to agree with it either.lol. *pulls hair out*.

I still use it, I am between a 4 and 5. That is actually one of the first things that told me I really am TS. The other indicators were the stories, experiences and conversations with TS women who have come before me.

Anna

[makin' it real]

Reine, Thank you for reintroducing an expanded range of options. Just as there are more than 8 pitches available in an octave, so too are there more than 2 subsets within the trangendered umbrella.

So to the OP, yes, I too have known I don't fit neatly into either the CD or TS fold. I am CD because I like dressing in women's clothing. It feels comfortable for me. And I am TS because I like the soft curves I've been developing through feminizing my body. That too feels comfortable for me. I am not CD though, because dressing is not "optional" or about the clothes. Dressing is about being comfortable in and expressing more of who I am. I am not TS either though, because I do not think I was born the wrong sex and don't plan to transition and live as a woman. I enjoy being a man, thinking like a man, and doing manly things.

I also enjoy being feminine and doing feminine things. I try to honor both the masculine and the feminine, both inside and out. As I was reading through this thread, I kept getting stuck on the term Intersexed as a possible descriptor for me. I know it doesn't fit because I wasn't born intersexed, but I couldn't come up with a better term to replace it with. Then I read DebGlam and Roberta Marie's terms of Bi-gendered and Dual-gendered. I love it! Yes! This is what I was looking for. Something that acknowledges the importance of both genders in my life! I am dual-gendered.

Androgynous never quite felt right for me as, at least for me, it carries some sense of not being either or, a sort of amorphous state of non-being, whereas dual-gendered more strongly says yes! Both and! This and this.

Plus, dual-gendered is intuitively understandable to the lay person encountering it for the first time. Simple, clear, and accurate. I like it.

As an example, I'm thinking of the last time I went in for a full body massage. Before the session, and while presenting as male, I asked the therapist to drape my chest during the session the same as he would drape a woman's chest. When I said in explanation that I was transgendered, he responded with, "What's that mean?" Had I said I was dual-gendered, I think he'd have understood much more quickly.

Marleena, thanks for bringing up this discussion and naming the gap. Roberta Marie, thank you for sharing a term that feels right for me. I like it.

~Rachel
A dual-gendered lover of life!

[elizabethamy]

some friends of mine in a band once wrote a song called "monsters eat my head off." that's how I think of the GID that plagues me; if a little CDing would stop the monsters, then I'd be a CD. But it doesn't stop it, not for long, so what to call this -- thing -- that I am? I see the transwomen who have crossed over and how happy they are; I see how unhappy it is being where I am; and I think that if anything can stop the monsters (it's really a catchy tune) from eating my head off, then I don't care what you call me -- just get me there.

e.

[KellyJameson]

I think to name ourselves or others CD, TG or TS will lead to hurt feelings and confusion.

I think of it as if I'm lost at sea and as the ocean currents carry me I look for an island that will support my life. These islands may be hostile to my life where for another they are very accommodating.

The islands are already populated and even though they may or may not accept you each person must decide by living with the native population whether they carry the same blood in their veins, (are we sisters separated at birth or distant cousins)

This can be confusing because within the native population that unites them is still a rich diversity of individual expression that may mimic other native peoples on the other islands.

It is possible to travel from island to island and there is always one island that will support the life of the individual if they make the effort to discover it. Living on the wrong island has the benefit of teaching the person why it is wrong for them so they are now better equipped with this new awareness to recognize that place they will be able to call home.

Living on the wrong island becomes a safe harbor until they are strong enough to move on or they realize that this island is their home after all.

There is one island that is very difficult to reach because one must be willing to risk their life to land safely on it and only those who have found all other islands hostile to their very existence will out of desperation attempt to live there, this is the final and last island and beyond this island is death.

Each island has a name and while you are living on that island you may be referred to by the name of this island but you are never the island and it is only a place that you are living and you may decide you do not belong there and leave to find a place you can call home.

When you do reach this place that you call home it will seem so comfortable that you will than feel that you and the island are one and you will experience peace and happiness.

[Jennifer in CO]

this has become a rather "deep" thread. Lots of well meant and shared comments. Some may have mistook my tongue-n-cheek comment about the labels wrong and to those whom feel offended, my apologies. Labels have their place. Labels are important. My T-N-C comment was to simply say "your not alone girlfriend". Having been on the other side for 5 years I would consider myself a Non-Op TS during that period of my life. That which was "down there" was given little thought by me for many years. Along about year 4 I was beginning to really consider that it was in the way and if there was some way for it to go away I would do it. Glad I didn't... but I digress. To a TS a label is a very important thing. Its a statement about ones mental position towards ones body. To the rest of the spectrum, I like the fluid gray scale...quite fitting as there is no "real" delineation but a fluid movement that can happen along the scale.

I think I'll be dark gray today.....or maybe light...hmmm

Jenn

[Krististeph]

1. CD-Plus
2. Advanced Level-CD
3. CD-Level A
4. Enhanced CD

Technical question: Can an advanced level CD play a CD-RW on a non-NTSC DVD ?

[Bree-asaurus]

Yet, those who are transitioning to the other gender, or who have completed their transition, I still feel a sense of envy....mainly because you are experiencing a sensation, a place , or a stage of something that I'm not . Therefore I feel left out. I still have a strong guy identity, and I love that part of me.

You aren't missing anything Nathalie.... you should be grateful that you are comfortable with yourself, that your gender and your sex line up. You were able to grow up and live your life as yourself (not talking about the CDing here). One thing that you'll hear a lot of transexuals say is they wish they could have grown up being the gender they identify as. Not only do a lot of us not grow up as the gender we identify as, but we also miss out on a lot of growing up PERIOD, because we hide from everyone, we hide from all the experiences we could have had for either gender. I spend most of my growing up alone... Most of my growing up was me spending time with myself... living through other mediums because I could not stand to be the boy I was 'supposed' to be and not being able to be the girl I was... so my growing up was like a purgatory.



I don't like labels, but I am going to try to answer some questions about them.

TS - a person who thinks that they are the opposite sex so strongly that they may resort to sugery to become that sex.

But those labels mean nothing, the important thing is that we are all people.

My advice Sissy, is don't respond to questions when you don't know the answer.

THINK? Transexuals do not THINK they are the opposite sex. THEIR BRAIN IS WIRED AS THE OPPOSITE SEX. If it was THINKING, that thinking could be changed through therapy... I guarantee you that it cannot.

Labels mean nothing? I also guarantee you that the transsexual label means a HELL of a lot. But since you choose to either not read the thread you are posting in, or choose to ignore anyone who doesn't agree with your ignorant views, I guess you wouldn't know...

Do you just ignore every prior post before you spout your uneducated bull? Do you hear the experiences of transsexuals that completely destroy your line of thinking, but you simply choose to ignore them because of course you know better? You know... not being transexual at all... clearly you would know better...

And the funny thing is, many, MANY times you have been called out on your misinformation but you never respond. It's like you jump into the middle of a thread, spout some BS and then never revisit it. You can't even back up your opinion...

But I guess that's just your opinion. You think being transsexual is just some extreme version of cross dressing where we want to be women so bad we chop off our penises. You know... there are a lot of people that think cross dressers are just gay guys trying to get some man sex. I bet you would find that offensive... but here you are, spouting opinions that are just as offensive and never stop to consider that maybe, just MAYBE you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.


Technical question: Can an advanced level CD play a CD-RW on a non-NTSC DVD ?

Does CD +/- balance out to just a CD? :P

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Technical question: Can an advanced level CD play a CD-RW on a non-NTSC DVD ?

Oh good grief Krististeph, they still make CD-RW? :eek: I thought that went the way of HD-DVD, and DIVX (Circuit City R.I.P.)!!:tongueout

[Bree-asaurus]

I'm surprised no one's thrown in "Executive Transvestite"

(Eddie Izzard) :D

[sissystephanie]

My advice, Sissy, is don't respond to questions when you don't know the answer.

THINK? Transexuals do not THINK they are the opposite sex. THEIR BRAIN IS WIRED AS THE OPPOSITE SEX. If it was THINKING, that thinking could be changed through therapy... I guarantee you that it cannot.

Labels mean nothing? I also guarantee you that the transsexual label means a HELL of a lot. But since you choose to either not read the thread you are posting in, or choose to ignore anyone who doesn't agree with your ignorant views, I guess you wouldn't know...

Do you just ignore every prior post before you spout your uneducated bull? Do you hear the experiences of transsexuals that completely destroy your line of thinking, but you simply choose to ignore them because of course you know better? You know... not being transexual at all... clearly you would know better...

And the funny thing is, many, MANY times you have been called out on your misinformation but you never respond. It's like you jump into the middle of a thread, spout some BS and then never revisit it. You can't even back up your opinion...

But I guess that's just your opinion. You think being transsexual is just some extreme version of cross dressing where we want to be women so bad we chop off our penises. You know... there are a lot of people that think cross dressers are just gay guys trying to get some man sex. I bet you would find that offensive... but here you are, spouting opinions that are just as offensive and never stop to consider that maybe, just MAYBE you have NO CLUE what you are talking about!

Having been a CD for over 60 years, and having experienced things that many of you have never even heard of, I do think I do know what I am talking about. I would like to see the proof that Bree apparently has that shows that Transsexuals are hard wired in their brains. None of the doctors that I have spoken with about sexual problems have ever mentioned that, simply because it is not true. Being a TG is a matter of your own thinking, and can be changed if you really want to!! But that is the hard part, YOU have to want to!!

I am sorry for not responding to other posts like I should. At my advanced age, and not very good health, I don't always have the energy to do the responses! But I do know what I am talking about, and when I do respond to a thread my response is correct!

[Anna Lorree]

You aren't missing anything Nathalie.... you should be grateful that you are comfortable with yourself, that your gender and your sex line up. You were able to grow up and live your life as yourself (not talking about the CDing here). One thing that you'll hear a lot of transexuals say is they wish they could have grown up being the gender they identify as. Not only do a lot of us not grow up as the gender we identify as, but we also miss out on a lot of growing up PERIOD, because we hide from everyone, we hide from all the experiences we could have had for either gender. I spend most of my growing up alone... Most of my growing up was me spending time with myself... living through other mediums because I could not stand to be the boy I was 'supposed' to be and not being able to be the girl I was... so my growing up was like a purgatory.

I have to agree with Bree here. I grew up in a large family on a dairy farm and so wasn't alone, but I spent a lot of time "alone" in my own head. As for not growing up, my therapist has told me that in her opinion I never completed social development and developing self-awareness during puberty. She estimated that I stopped my progress around age 15, which just happens to also be the year when I realized I was supposed to have been a girl, and the year I nearly killed myself.

Being TS is not fun, I would gladly give it away if I could.

Anna

[busker]

Yes, everybody hates 'labels', but it is what we humans do, and we have been doing it since the dawn of time. We labeled edible plants and animals as 'Food', we labeled one sex as men the other as woman. It's how we keep things straight in our minds. Are all labels absolutely correct? No, but they still have a purpose.

So the debate goes on, who is a cross-dresser, who is Transgender and who is transexual? The last one is easy. If you feel trapped in the wrong body and want to change it, even if you don't have the means to do so, then you are transexual.
But the other 2 are much less defined. Probably because they are fairly new terms created to help define the once very broad term transvestite. Most modern definitions state that a transgender is anyone presenting themselves as a gender other than the one they were born with. So by that definition I am most definitely Transgender.

I think the sticking point comes down to that phrase 'presenting themselves', what exactly constitutes presenting? For me it means that I go out in public and dress like, walk like and act like a woman. I want people around me to think 'there goes a woman' ( OK I really want them to think 'There goes an attractive woman', but that is another story).

So where does that put the wide range of others here that stretch from wearing panties, sometimes, under their male pants, to those that dress fully, go out but still keep facial hair? I don't know, but I think that if you are going to try and draw the line between a 'Cross-dresser and a transgender, look to that definition and ask yourself 'Am I trying to present myself as a woman?'

Once you have done this, just forget the label and go enjoy yourself!

Jess, that is the problem I think about often. Crossdressing is a physical act and it doesn't necessarily mean anything. If I understand the "drag queen" terminology, these are "entertainers" who don women's clothing and beneath , there is nothing going on that is in any way connected with "female or transgendered". One can be transgendered an still wear a suit. It is a mental state, and one could be a TS, pre or post-op and still wear a suit. The presentation would be how someone acts. Actors who wear women's clothing attempt to fool the viewer--not unlike your average CD. Often what "outs" people is their mental presentation (e.g. their mannerisms don't match what our brains tell us a woman should be doing). One can be a spy and still dress like a beach bum. We really ought to address the mental states of a person to determine where they are on the spectrum. Isn't that the reasoning that transvestites were listed as deviants in the DSM? They were considering a "mental presentation" rather than the physical clothing aspect. We base everything on clothing here but I don't think that gets to the root of who we really are. Actually, in calling ourselves crossdressers , we may be doing ourselves a disservice.

[whowhatwhen]

Can't we all just get along?
:)

I did however come to the realization that quite a few of my posts were fishing for a label, I see this in others as well.
Is it easier to be labeled by someone else than to take responsibility for ourselves?

The only thing I can think of is how scary it is to not know, and we desperately search for someone - anyone to tell us who we really are.
Well, at least from my perspective - I won't lump anyone else in here ;)

So yeah, take that as a sort of apology for hounding you guys for something that I can only discover myself.
:)



Being a TG is a matter of your own thinking, and can be changed if you really want to!! But that is the hard part, YOU have to want to!!


Oh, how my bank account wishes that were true.
Also so would my depression, body image, ect...

There are countless examples on here of people who tried to "stop" being TG, it never works out and you can bet there is mental harm involved.
Why do you think reparative therapy never works and ends up with damaged individuals?

[muzzy]

The way I see myself is as a crossdresser....I wear womens clothes to make myself feel good...I don't have sex with men but if I did I would call myself gay.If I had a operation and had my penis removed and wore womens clothes,I would call myself a transexual.If I go out in the world regularly wearing womens clothes I would call myself a transvestite.have I missed any.I have never gone out and called myself a label.xoxo

[NathalieX66]

Sparks fly. ^^^
Lots of ongoing scientific data saying TS's brains are wired differently.....yeah, all theory, I know.

All I know is that those who have gender identity issues, and are rectifying it through HRT and whatever surgical operations, seem to be happier after is is said and done. I side with them.
.....at least the ones I know, and met.

[KellyJameson]

I have to agree with Bree, Childhood is purgatory but at the time it feels like hell.

Hi Stephanie. I think you meant well but I also believe I understand why Bree was angered by your comment

We live the experience of being human beings, we do not "think" we are human beings we "know" it.

I "know" I am a male bodied female just as I "know" I am a human being.

This experience is probably impossible for someone to understand who is not living it because you do not "feel" it so cannot "know" it.

I have found some understanding of myself by what my black friends tried to teach me about being black in a white world, I do not "know" what it feels like to be black in relation to white and I take being white for granted. Those whose body and mind align take it for granted.

This is a very limited example because it only touches on the experience of being female in a male body or male in a female body.

Imagine that you "know" something that is opposite what every other person is telling you is true.
It is a living insanity where the only hope of sanity is to go deeper into the insanity, but this insanity is not really yours but created by others who refused to believe what you knew to be true.

Your truth did not make you sick but others inability to see the truth did. This tension that lives inside you making you feel as if at any moment you will burst into a thousand flying pieces going into all different directions leaves you fearing death and wanting it at the same moment and it is always with you ready to be triggered by almost every life experience, all you want is escape but you do not know what you are trying to escape from or where to go for escape.

For me this resulted in complex PTSD because the trauma of living in a world that did not recognize me was to much for my mind to bear just like for some war is. It is a moment by moment attack on you that never stops.

[Bree-asaurus]

Having been a CD for over 60 years, and having experienced things that many of you have never even heard of, I do think I do know what I am talking about. I would like to see the proof that Bree apparently has that shows that Transsexuals are hard wired in their brains. None of the doctors that I have spoken with about sexual problems have ever mentioned that, simply because it is not true. Being a TG is a matter of your own thinking, and can be changed if you really want to!! But that is the hard part, YOU have to want to!!

I am sorry for not responding to other posts like I should. At my advanced age, and not very good health, I don't always have the energy to do the responses! But I do know what I am talking about, and when I do respond to a thread my response is correct!

I think you're age might have a little to do with how stuck in your ways you are.

For the record, for everyone else to read, Sissy Stephanie believes that transexuals can THINK their way into no longer being transsexual.

I don't think I need to say anything else. You have made it pretty clear that you are totally clueless... and incredibly amusing! Thanks for the good laugh lol! I'm glad all your experience as a cross dresser have totally educated you on what it's like to be transsexual. You apparently know more about it than every transsexual on the planet! You should write a book! We'll put it right up there with the SCIENTOLOGY: A NEW SLANT ON LIFE

[Debglam]

Being a TG is a matter of your own thinking, and can be changed if you really want to!! But that is the hard part, YOU have to want to!!


Stephanie, that may be true for you but I can tell you, as someone who does not consider themselves to be TS but bigendered, that I was born the way I am. I was never dropped on my head, dressed as a girl, had any early childhood experience that "feminized" me, yet as early as 7 or 8 years old, I knew I wanted to be a girl. The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that there is some biological reason for it. Believe me, I spent most of my life struggling to be "normal" and if it was a matter of simply wanting it, I wouldn't be typing this message right now.

Debby

[ReineD]

OK folks, when it gets to a personal level like this, it's time to shut it down.