Too Old?

[LeaP]

Of all the reasons I read for not transitioning, being too old is the one that puzzles me the most. I half-jokingly said I was too old for transition to my therapist once. She laughed and dismissed it out of hand. My own expression of age was really one of embarrassment at that point. I felt a ridiculous figure sitting there presenting as a middle-aged male talking about femininity.

Too old is a sentiment that is posted frequently on the forum. I've read from those in their seventies ... and from those still in their teens! I don't understand it, considering age in itself. One might have health issues that prevent hormones or surgeries, appearance concerns affecting passability, family obligations that take precedence - any number of things around which rationales or excuses (take your pick) may be constructed. but age itself?

Does anyone really think age is an issue for themselves? Or are you using it as a shorthand term to refer to other issues?

[Sandra1746]

I consider myself "too old" to transition. That said, I also do not have the absolute need to transition-age may be a factor here too. A transition would pretty much mean starting over, and at 66 that's a daunting prospect; surgery at that age is not an inviting prospect. I can self-identify as transgender and cross dress so that is the compromise I have to make. My wife is OK with this, transition would not go well with her and I love her. Life is all a series of compromises and the trick to happiness is to find the optimum ones for your situation.

Hugs,
Sandra1746

[Kristy_K]

I don't think you can ever really be to old to transition if you need to.

I do wish I could have transition when I was younger. But I didn't so I will take what I can get now and make the best use of the time I do have left in life.

[Stephenie S]

Here is the absolute truth.

You are never too old. The OP is right. We hear this excuse from all ages from the twenties to the seventies. Too old? Ridiculous! It's only another excuse, just as lame as all the other excuses.

S

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sandra
If being too old is not the issue, its not the issue.....i think what lea is talking about is "needing to " transition, and feeling (or using the excuse) that your age precludes it..
if you don't need to transition in your mind, then compromise is a viable option...one of the reasons i think i end up being ok with TS being a "disorder" is because we tend to suffer from this overwhelming need that makes compromise impossible..its very suffocating and frustrating...it sure seems clinically valid to me...we literally CANT NOT transition, or we start to feel like dying... if you don't feel this way, you are lucky!

For me Lea, the single most impactful thought i ever had was over my age and my mortality.. it was the thought that i would 60 or 70 or 80 , on my deathbed or on the beach, and i would just "know" all of a sudden that i wasted my entire life, that i would deeply regret not living as myself, that i had gifted my life away out of fear and lack of courage, with nothing to show for it other than a bitter understanding that i had lived an unauthentic worthless life...and that i would know there was absolutely nothing i could ever ever ever do about it....YIKES!!!!!!!!!

that was the turning point for me... so my answer to everyone is you are not too old... and don't get caught up in surgery...yes the surgery is amazing and helpful, but its not neccessary...older women are commonly hormone challenged...if you are older, you will pass much easier...if you have no hair, i understand that is daunting issue..but lots of older women wear wigs...and a good wig will go unnoticed , and the only problem will be comfort...

if you are retired, you have no work issues..your kids are likely grown up..etc..

what would you get out of a no surgery, no HRT transition?
...you'd get the incredible feeling of doing something that felt like YOU for the first time in your life...and you'd get it every day..
when i felt this for the first time, there was no concept of turning back..

[LeaP]

I consider myself "too old" to transition. That said, I also do not have the absolute need to transition-age may be a factor here too. A transition would pretty much mean starting over, and at 66 that's a daunting prospect; surgery at that age is not an inviting prospect. I can self-identify as transgender and cross dress so that is the compromise I have to make. My wife is OK with this, transition would not go well with her and I love her. Life is all a series of compromises and the trick to happiness is to find the optimum ones for your situation.

I agree with all of this except the starting over part, at least for someone who feels compelled to transition. There are two aspects to starting over. One is the transition itself, and that's no different at 60 than 30, in my opinion. The other is the notion of investment, that one has invested too much in the current life to risk. There one has to ask about the wisdom of hanging on to something that one knows is false and a source of pain. I.e., a bad investment.

[Lorileah]

Wow, you all have the answer. The thing is that some of us are comfortable with not having complete SRS and at our age we really don't see the advantage to spending thousands of dollars and basically not doing anything more than we are doing now. OK so maybe it isn't just age. However, in our minds we are what we are. Having your body altered may or may not bring us the full happiness we are after.

Not every TS NEEDS to have things altered especially at an age when things like joints, hearts, kidneys etc are more important to survival. Since we all have our own reasons for having or not having SRS surgery,m I find it really impertinent for people to say it is an excuse. Maybe it would make yo all happier if we just said "I don't want the damn surgery!" but then we get the really nice TS's who tell us we aren't TS. That we are wanna be's or fakes or part timers.

I am at the age where I do not see an advantage to having the surgery. Thus in my mind and heart I am "too old". I am not a physical or metabolic risk to not have surgery but there are a few out there who may be. But I don't see how it will change how I live or what I do. I am beyond looking for a mate, having a family, I can do things that make it appear that I am female without the surgery. Even though I appear younger (by at least 10 years) when I am totally made up I don't really care. Many of us have the mind set that even after surgery we would most likely dress as we do daily (I know there are many here who believe that they would dress like prom queens every day but we know that doesn't happen). So why do I need to have surgery to wear jeans and a top?

I am beyond the age where hormones will do a whole lot to change me. My hips won't spread, my shoulders won't decrease, my breast may gain a half a cup. I would look pretty strange with perky breasts and an old body. Do they do surgery that will make my breasts look like a 55 year old woman? Probably not so I will keep what I have.

I have great respect for those who have or are going to have SRS in any manner. However some of us just do not see the reason the spend that kind of money for what little time we may have here. If you cannot respect the fact that there are a few of us who see age as a reason to not have surgery, then you really have a narrow mind. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it

[Julia_in_Pa]

Lea,

If someone is using age as an excuse not to transition they were never supposed to transition to begin with.
I'm using transitioning in the social sense. Full time living, 24-7.

Most use the age card as a crutch concerning being too old but I've seen quite a few that were under the age of twenty use it as an excuse as well.
" I have plenty of time " they say.

No you don't.

Time will catch all of us by surprise.
To quote Pink Floyd from the song " Time " " Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. "

With each passing second life leaves us never to return and those with excuses will die with them.



Julia

[Linda St. John]

Wow ! Thanks Lori, you said everything I wanted to say ....only much better ....again thanks !

[LeaP]

I have great respect for those who have or are going to have SRS in any manner. However some of us just do not see the reason the spend that kind of money for what little time we may have here. If you cannot respect the fact that there are a few of us who see age as a reason to not have surgery, then you really have a narrow mind. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it

Most of what you've described isn't truly age. Your response is also strongly focused on surgery and, to a lesser extent, hormones. I can understand that, as I mentioned them in the OP itself, but neither are necessary for transition.

In writing this, I realize how strongly I feel about social transition vs. all the rest. To me, the barrier IS social transition. After all, it's possible to undergo SRS and take hormones without ever living as a woman. HRT and SRS may convey considerable benefit - or not, depending on your goals, something you've illustrated very well. I recently wrote to someone that SRS was an affirmation of what they had already become. That is how I would regard itself for myself as well, best case.

[Bree-asaurus]

Wow, you all have the answer. The thing is that some of us are comfortable with not having complete SRS and at our age we really don't see the advantage to spending thousands of dollars and basically not doing anything more than we are doing now. OK so maybe it isn't just age. However, in our minds we are what we are. Having your body altered may or may not bring us the full happiness we are after.

Not every TS NEEDS to have things altered especially at an age when things like joints, hearts, kidneys etc are more important to survival. Since we all have our own reasons for having or not having SRS surgery,m I find it really impertinent for people to say it is an excuse. Maybe it would make yo all happier if we just said "I don't want the damn surgery!" but then we get the really nice TS's who tell us we aren't TS. That we are wanna be's or fakes or part timers.

I am at the age where I do not see an advantage to having the surgery. Thus in my mind and heart I am "too old". I am not a physical or metabolic risk to not have surgery but there are a few out there who may be. But I don't see how it will change how I live or what I do. I am beyond looking for a mate, having a family, I can do things that make it appear that I am female without the surgery. Even though I appear younger (by at least 10 years) when I am totally made up I don't really care. Many of us have the mind set that even after surgery we would most likely dress as we do daily (I know there are many here who believe that they would dress like prom queens every day but we know that doesn't happen). So why do I need to have surgery to wear jeans and a top?

I am beyond the age where hormones will do a whole lot to change me. My hips won't spread, my shoulders won't decrease, my breast may gain a half a cup. I would look pretty strange with perky breasts and an old body. Do they do surgery that will make my breasts look like a 55 year old woman? Probably not so I will keep what I have.

I have great respect for those who have or are going to have SRS in any manner. However some of us just do not see the reason the spend that kind of money for what little time we may have here. If you cannot respect the fact that there are a few of us who see age as a reason to not have surgery, then you really have a narrow mind. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it

I think you made an assumption that you need to have SRS to transition... this is a false assumption. Transitioning is living your life as yourself. That doesn't REQUIRE that you undergo HRT or have any surgeries.


But regardless, the sole point of getting SRS is not so you can run around and use your new vagina everywhere. My BF doesn't have a penis... if I get SRS, it's not for sex... it's because I hate what I have and want to get rid of it. So even if I was 60, I would still probably want to get SRS. But that's just me.

But like has been said... excuses excuses excuses. You either need to transition or you don't. People will point the blame at anything but themselves.

[Stephenie S]

I think you made an assumption that you need to have SRS to transition... this is a false assumption. Transitioning is living your life as yourself. That doesn't REQUIRE that you undergo HRT or have any surgeries.


But regardless, the sole point of getting SRS is not so you can run around and use your new vagina everywhere. My BF doesn't have a penis... if I get SRS, it's not for sex... it's because I hate what I have and want to get rid of it. So even if I was 60, I would still probably want to get SRS. But that's just me.

But like has been said... excuses excuses excuses. You either need to transition or you don't. People will point the blame at anything but themselves.

Repeated for truth.

Thank you Bree. That was nicely put.

Stephie

[RachelOKC]

Can someone be too old? No, I don't think you can ever be too old to find happiness in becoming who you want to be. My old friend Michelle transitioned in her mid-60's and died about ten years later. Could she have done it sooner? Maybe. But I know for a fact that those ten years were some of the happiest of her life, finally living who she really was inside.

I agree with Bree that it's a false assumption that you have to have SRS to transition. Many transitioned people I know haven't and won't have any sort of SRS for lack of money, desire, need, or results. What really matters most is how you feel between your ears and not between your legs. While the latter may be a path to the former, it isn't necessarily so.

Empirically speaking it's probably better to transition sooner rather than later, but if you have to do it, better later than never. I don't want to die wishing I'd tried to be myself. Like my friend Michelle, I'd rather go knowing that I DID.

[Kathryn Martin]

If you accept that congruence is at the heart of need of a person with the transsexual condition then SRS is a completion not an affirmation.

I do not believe that age is a factor at all. We say age is a factor because we fail to properly describe what the real reason is. I think that as you get older both change and security concerns become much more important.

There is a fallacy in the view that "transitioning"is living your life as yourself. It raises the question what is "yourself"? Is it a woman, a man, a gender bender, a crossdresser or what? While transitioning can describe anything that gets people from one state of being to another in the context of this board "transitioning" means to transition from one sex to another in confirmation of what the true gender is. The urgency of congruence will vary. This is a trite statement in that it was described from the beginning by Benjamin. He even developed a scale to reflect urgency as a determining factor.

SRS is only for those, for whom dressing the part and behaving the part is not enough. They experience their disability as a deep wound in the fabric of their lives. To state:
at our age we really don't see the advantage to spending thousands of dollars and basically not doing anything more than we are doing now. indicates that the urgency of congruence is lower than for those that are high intensity transsexuals. The statement focuses on financial security and on behavior and completely misses the injury experienced by those that have a high urgency to be congruent.

It is at this bright red line that persons with gender variance divide themselves from transsexuals. This is never an issue of validity, but always an issue of deeper understanding of both conditions.


Most of what you've described isn't truly age. Your response is also strongly focused on surgery and, to a lesser extent, hormones. I can understand that, as I mentioned them in the OP itself, but neither are necessary for transition.

In writing this, I realize how strongly I feel about social transition vs. all the rest. To me, the barrier IS social transition. After all, it's possible to undergo SRS and take hormones without ever living as a woman. HRT and SRS may convey considerable benefit - or not, depending on your goals, something you've illustrated very well. I recently wrote to someone that SRS was an affirmation of what they had already become. That is how I would regard itself for myself as well, best case.

[Bree-asaurus]

There is a fallacy in the view that "transitioning"is living your life as yourself. It raises the question what is "yourself"? Is it a woman, a man, a gender bender, a crossdresser or what?

Well, we're talking about transexuals here, so what I was referring to is a MTF living as a female or an FTM living as a male.

I'm an MTF transsexual and I'm transitioning and I am living my life as myself. I don't know when, if ever, I will finish transitioning because SRS is still in my future. After I get that, I still have no idea how things will change, and how my transition will continue. So many say that transition really begins after SRS, and not having had that, I don't really know what to expect. So I'm just doing what I can to be myself every day (hence my recent orchiectomy to help me out until I can get SRS).

[Traci Elizabeth]

There is only ONE age limit for transitioning. It's called DEATH!

[RADER]

What all have said is true; However, remember you heal a lot slower at 65 than at 35.
Just a thought.
And a second thing just came to mind:
At 35, you will live a lot longer transitioned than at 65, So you are getting a bigger
bang for your Buck.
Rader

[Kathryn Martin]

Uhhmmm, excuse me I am 58 and am healing like a world champion. You just have to prepare properly..........

And - I am not sure that bang for the buck would be the right expression here, we are talking about vaginas after all...... what you say makes it sound all prostitutionary .....:p:eek::doh:

What all have said is true; However, remember you heal a lot slower at 65 than at 35.
Just a thought.
And a second thing just came to mind:
At 35, you will live a lot longer transitioned than at 65, So you are getting a bigger
bang for your Buck.
Rader

[Traci Elizabeth]

What all have said is true; However, remember you heal a lot slower at 65 than at 35.
Just a thought.
And a second thing just came to mind:
At 35, you will live a lot longer transitioned than at 65, So you are getting a bigger
bang for your Buck.
Rader



Both of these points are irrelevant because "whenever" you are ready to transition be it 19 or 91, it will be just as magnificent, beneficial, and important regardless of how old you are. And I would claim, even more so the older one is.

You can NOT put a cost/benefit analysis on happiness or being "whole." There is no such thing as more bang for your buck when you are younger vs older. I would state that someone who transitions late in life values and treasures each and every moment more so than younger ladies as the younger you are the more you are likely to take it for granted or to squander time away.

Just saying!

[Kristy_K]

What all have said is true; However, remember you heal a lot slower at 65 than at 35.
Just a thought.
And a second thing just came to mind:
At 35, you will live a lot longer transitioned than at 65, So you are getting a bigger
bang for your Buck.
Rader

I am also 58 and I heal just fine. Even if you transition at 35 you could die the next day or the next year.

People I have seen that needs to transition does not consider them things as being important at the time they transition.

Money will not buy happiness but transitioning can for some people.

[LeaP]

If you accept that congruence is at the heart of need of a person with the transsexual condition then SRS is a completion not an affirmation.

...

There is a fallacy in the view that "transitioning"is living your life as yourself. It raises the question what is "yourself"? Is it a woman, a man, a gender bender, a crossdresser or what? While transitioning can describe anything that gets people from one state of being to another in the context of this board "transitioning" means to transition from one sex to another in confirmation of what the true gender is. The urgency of congruence will vary. ...

SRS is only for those, for whom dressing the part and behaving the part is not enough. They experience their disability as a deep wound in the fabric of their lives. To state: indicates that the urgency of congruence is lower than for those that are high intensity transsexuals. The statement focuses on financial security and on behavior and completely misses the injury experienced by those that have a high urgency to be congruent.

It is at this bright red line that persons with gender variance divide themselves from transsexuals. This is never an issue of validity, but always an issue of deeper understanding of both conditions.

I do see congruence as the heart of the matter. What I see happening repeatedly to people in transition, however, is that they change during that period significantly to becoming the women they are, if you don't mind the characterization. It shows up in more rational presentation (typically), but more importantly in changes in attitudes, communication style, and relationships. In a hundred things, big and small.

Pre-op transition is obviously not the achievement of full congruence, but there are many types of congruence. Hormonal & emotional congruence are obvious ones, but simply living in the open as yourself is a type of congruence itself. I see material psychological and motive differences between one who wishes to live openly as a crossdresser versus someone whose identity is female.

Because I see many congruence issues - noting that like SRS, things like hormones and FFS are also physical - and also because I perceive social transition to be the larger barrier for most people, I'm reluctant to endorse your gender variant concept. I've read too many times of transsexuals' own views of SRS changing during transition. Many times it's expressed as did you - a completion. But it is often delayed or even foregone, apparently with little issue. There are also those who describe their transitions as ongoing, even post-SRS.

All things equal, I agree with your comments on relative urgency. Regardless of urgency, though, most transsexuals reportedly do not undergo SRS, yet are regarded by their healthcare providers and in the medical literature as transsexual. As you pointed out, the literature addresses urgency, but does not place the transsexual line where you do, nor create the definition you propose.

All of this points to a complexity of considerations and on points of transition each one of which intersect differently with age considerations. Maybe it's better to ask about which points of transition an individual sees age as a problem, rather than asking a blanket question about age.

[Sandra1746]

I do like Lori's long post best of all since it applies best to me. However all the replies raise good points. I guess I kicked the discussion off, in a way, so I'll add a couple more items. First remember I stated I considered myself TG and did not feel a need to transition. Perhaps that is a disqualification but I don't think so.

I have several health issues and HRT would likely interfere with the treatment for these. These are age-related onset issues so "too old" in the physical sense applies. Also, I do heal more slowly now than I used to.

My wife is OK with me going out in Fem-casual. Today we went to the mall, I was dressed in fem shorts and a fem t-shirt with the usual jewelery and my purse. I also have shoulder-length hair. The only more-fem clothing I could have chosen would have been a skirt or dress. My wife would not be OK with that in public, but is OK at home. Having her as a best friend is of EXTREME importance to me, anything that would damage that is not worth the cost.

When I go out en-drab I wear slacks and a sport shirt. I don't get dressed up any more so doing an en-fem is only a small change; different shirt and slacks. Also, if you look at the women's clothing catalogs today many sell men's shirts for the women to wear. If it's the same shirt who can tell.

For those who have a real need to transition, I wish you all the best luck in the world on your journey. There are however a lot of different people here and everyone is different; we all choose different paths and destinations. You are competent to define your own journey but to tell another what they should do or how they should act is really presumptuous; IMHO.

Life is a journey, and a very personal one. Enjoy the ride.

Hugs,
Sandra1746

[Kaz]

Sandra, Lori,

Many thanks...great words and truly empathetic and understanding...

I feel the need to share a real life story that I hope serves as a metaphor...

I remember an old friend from University I kept in touch with... we both married our respective partners (he my best mand and I his) and we met up as 'couples' on weekends (as we lived in different parts of the country)... we had our first daughter... problems... she caused problems when going to pubs because she didn't like sitting still for hours... we kind of cooled a bit but kept the friendship/realtionship going. They had their first (daughter)... she would still for hours drinking lemonade while our first and then our second daughter continually got bored and life was one big continuing problem with thie friendship/relationship... so we drifted apart for a few years...

Then they had a son... we heard about his wife's depression and the problems they were having with this kid from hell....

So we invited them over as it it had now been a few years... and met this normal kid... not a kid from hell, a normal kid who was cool!

As they left, they said... now you know what we have had to put up with!

We thought... yeah... welcome to our reality...

I have some increasingly major age related issues. I am glad that our younger (and some older) peers don't, but then they don't share my reality. In fact, from many angry posts around here.. they won't even accept my reality, let alone try to understand it...

Oh.. if life was so black and white!

My 'friend' judged us as ineffective and weak parents for years, until he had a 'normal' kid.. then he reinterpreted the issue as having a problem child... so he successfully ignored the whole point and reconfirmed his own prejudices...

I have three fabulous daughters who are now grown up women (well they think they are!)... and I am too old to be prepared to do surgery and HRT just for a few more years of illusion...

I also am still required to bail them out at times and step in to solve crises... so I need a job that pays!

In my head, I am Kaz and female... but I now know that I always was... I just lived a different life... a good one and I did some good stuff... I don't regret it, but I do regret letting them down because of who I really am...

[LeaP]

I do like Lori's long post best of all since it applies best to me. However all the replies raise good points. I guess I kicked the discussion off, in a way, so I'll add a couple more items. First remember I stated I considered myself TG and did not feel a need to transition. Perhaps that is a disqualification but I don't think so.

I have several health issues and HRT would likely interfere with the treatment for these. These are age-related onset issues so "too old" in the physical sense applies. Also, I do heal more slowly now than I used to.

My wife is OK with me going out in Fem-casual. ... My wife would not be OK with ... Having her as a best friend is of EXTREME importance to me, anything that would damage that is not worth the cost.

... If it's the same shirt who can tell.

... You are competent to define your own journey but to tell another what they should do or how they should act is really presumptuous; IMHO.


This thread is about transition. Please refer to the first sentence in my OP. Moreover, I posted it in the Transsexual Forum.

Anyone is free to reply, I'm just not sure why someone who is not transsexual would. What relevance are your comments on your personal situation and health as it relates to transition if you are not transsexual and never planned to transition? (You describe yourself as TG and with no need to transition.) I don't mean this offensively, I just don't get it. I might accept it as a theoretical, using your health, for example, to illustrate a point (which was well-taken). Fine, but then why go to supposed issues of attitude, e.g., people's presumption in telling other people what they should do?

I can only infer the topical content in some of your other comments. Are you implying, for example, that your marriage relationship and your wife's limited forbearance are of greater value because of your age or the passage of time? If so, should I extend that reasoning to others ... Or would that be presumptuous? I REALLY don't understand the relevance of the clothing point with the shirt.

Help me out here, because I must be missing something. I asked about transition age objections in the OP. What I got from transsexuals is that age is irrelevant. What I got from non-transsexuals - on a question that only is applicable TO transsexuals - was a certain outrage.

[Kaz]

I apologise for posting... I really did not wish to offend... but here we go again with categories... to you I am not TS... I am trying to say that it is not that simple... I am happy to butt out of this community if that is the feeling of the community. I am so so sorry to have offended you. I just have gender issues that border on the suicidal... thanks.

[LeaP]

I apologise for posting... I really did not wish to offend... but here we go again with categories... to you I am not TS... I am trying to say that it is not that simple... I am happy to butt out of this community if that is the feeling of the community. I am so so sorry to have offended you. I just have gender issues that border on the suicidal... thanks.

Ah, but Kaz, you didn't offend, nor did you take offense. And it's not about categories - its about age and transition. What i can read into your response, Sandra's, and Lorileah's is that age is one of many considerations - a complicating factor - when thinking of transition when you don't need to transition. But for those to whom transition is urgent, it is irrelevant. That's not as tautological as it sounds. Rather, it's an expression of identity urgency in the sense recognized in the medical literature.

[ReineD]

Lea, we have the "What's New" button at the top of each page. I often browse the forum this way, and focus on the first column with the thread title. If it interests me, I go to the second column where the last person who has posted in the thread is listed and I click on the link that takes me to the last post. I don't always notice the third column that tells me what section of the forum I'm about to enter, even though I should pay attention to this.

Usually we can tell by the thread titles where we're headed, but not always.

Please, if it seems as if someone has posted in this thread thinking they were in the CD section, it is likely an honest mistake and maybe a PM asking them if they realize they posted in the TS section might be enough to have them either edit their post or delete it if they feel it is inappropriate.

Just trying to keep the peace here. :hugs:

[Kaz]

You see, you really don't get it do you (not you personally Lea (utmost respect! seriously!)... but the broader TS 'labelled' community)? I don't need to transition? This feeling is so dismissive of others and appear to have no empathy with what others are going through.

OK I can see the argument that we 'lesser mortals' shouldn't be posting here...

Have you any idea about what it is like to NEED to transition... but you CAN'T....

No you don't.... Get out of your boxes and look around the place... PLEASE!

[ReineD]

Kaz, please don't let memories of the vocal few get to you. I know you're not speaking to anyone particularly in this thread. You are who you identify as, no matter what choices you make about how to conduct your life. No one else has walked in your shoes and so no one is qualified to place any judgment on you, ever.

[KellyJameson]

I do think age is a factor but in "not being old enough" to transition not "from being to old".

But this only applies to me and my own unique history.

Because I believe we are born in such a way that only one identity is possible and that is as a woman and anything built on top of this is false we become extremely vulnerable to psychological trauma. I only speak from a male bodied perspective, not female bodied.

This makes treating the "birth defect" ( I do not like this phrase but understand it) difficult because it becomes hidden under layers of psychosis created by the original birth defect and the worlds reaction to it further distorting ones sense of reality.

You are born wounded by circumstance so are much easier to be wounded by life, you live without the psychological defenses other children have, much like having a disease of the immune system that opens you up to sickness but you are not sick and not defective.

Very few people have escaped the violence, physical or otherwise of family and community not trying to forcibly change them or punish them for being who they are and this is a slow poison that is dripped into your veins poisoning your own mind.

If I had transitioned in my teens and not first addressed the effects of childhood trauma it is unlikely I would have survived it and the GID for me was much of this trauma not only how it affected me but how it affected others.

You become trapped between a rock and a hard place because not changing risks death and changing risks death. Most of my intense and very unpredictable behavior came from being caught between these two opposing forces.

I threw myself into therapy and self education instead of drugs and alcohol but for the same reason, to deal wiith the pain of feeling broken (not normal like others) and looking for escape but not knowing from what and answers but without knowing the questions.

As I healed from the complex PTSD, anxiety, Avoidance Personality Disorder ( basically everything that happen to me in childhood and my reaction to it) I was able to have a deeper understanding of the gender identity dysphoria leaving me with the ability to make better choices instead of not having "any choice" so I'm in pain but I'm calm about it because I understand so the fear of the "whats happening to me/ whats wrong with me" is less.

This leaves me much stronger to walk into the future and increases my chances of surviving psychologically intact even though I am living incongruent and opposed to that which I know to be true. The knowledge has brought a measure of peace yet also contributes to my restlessness to act.

Age is your friend and enemy in that to transition when you are young brings benefits with costs but also to transition when you are older brings benefits with costs.

There is no perfect solution, you will pay one way or another but with GID you are paying anyway.

[Lorileah]

In my head, I am Kaz and female... but I now know that I always was... I just lived a different life... a good one and I did some good stuff... I don't regret it, but I do regret letting them down because of who I really am...

and that is the truth. I know so many want physically to match the mind but I have always been Lori (from age 4 or 5) in my mind. It confuses me when guys do things and I think why don't I want to do that, but when I do think about my gender I think of me as female. Of course that illusion is shattered when I look. But I am happy with my mind. Would I have had surgery 30 years ago? If the results were even close to today, yes. I have reconciled who I am. Maybe it is the logical male part of my brain. If the hormones or surgery would make me 20 years younger, I would even continue working the extra 20 years. Age may not be a disease but it sure has some issues

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This thread PRESUMED you are transsexual..and asked an interesting question...
and people gave thoughtful caring answers...positive answers...

and then people got on the soapbox about transsexuals and how somehow "we have all the answers, and we don't understand"...blah blah....it came from nowhere...followed by "you tell em's".....

WTF

It's just a fact of life that people end up at different places...folks that have transitioned KNOW what is given up...folks that haven't dont... this is a permanent forever conflict..the gap is gonna be there.
People that transition will doubt people that dont...they just will..and people that don't will look at transitioners with a mix of feelings that apparently includes envy..

Its especially silly to go on about how someone that transitioned feels better than you...frankly when i read stories about how people stuck it out with their families, or stuck it out for a job, it makes me feel inadequate that i couldn't make it ..
i got divorced, i lost my job...what a loser... i guess i should just keep my mouth shut around all you people that can hold off transition better than i could...sounds kind of ridiculous, no??

[KellyJameson]

I love you Kaz, you make the world a better place.

And I very much understand, glad that you are here and are my friend.

To suffer for others can be the highest expression of love, much like a soldier who dies for another. You have sacrificed a part of yourself and your life to protect and nurture your family giving them hope for a brighter future. You will always have my respect.

[Bree-asaurus]

You see, you really don't get it do you (not you personally Lea (utmost respect! seriously!)... but the broader TS 'labelled' community)? I don't need to transition? This feeling is so dismissive of others and appear to have no empathy with what others are going through.

OK I can see the argument that we 'lesser mortals' shouldn't be posting here...

Have you any idea about what it is like to NEED to transition... but you CAN'T....

No you don't.... Get out of your boxes and look around the place... PLEASE!

Maybe it seems dismissive if you don't look at what the people who have needed to transition and did transition had to go through and had to give up to do so. To say that everyone else is being dismissive is kind of being dismissive in itself. How do you know your situation is any harder (or easier) than someone else who has transitioned?

I don't know your situation, so I don't know what's keeping you from transitioning. (Jokingly) Sounds like you're in prison or something and they are literally forcing your way of life... But to me, a NEED is something that if you don't do it, you will die. You NEED food. You NEED water.

Of course, I haven't always had a need to transition... when I was 12, I was just suffering and wasn't the same person I was two years ago, and didn't know what I knew two years ago. Two years ago, after growing up, learning who I really am finally breaking through barriers... things changed and I did need to transition. It was transition or die. Unless I was in a position where I literally couldn't transition... but I would actually have to sit down and try to think up a situation that would keep me from transitioning. I didn't want to transition. This isn't something I'm happy I have to do. I had to choose between the lesser of two evils with a hope that transitioning would make my life better. Thankfully it has. And I haven't had to lose too much in the process. There are people who transition and give up EVERYTHING... I am extremely lucky to not be in that position, but it's a risk I had to take.

Maybe what you have is a desperate want or desire to transition. However, if you do NEED to transition and can't... I honestly feel bad for you... and hope you can hold on to the good things in life long enough to enjoy them. But if you desperately want to transition but don't because of family or a job or whatever, that's different. You're able to make the choice to live without transitioning. (not saying anything about you being or not being a transsexual... not calling that into question at all) I hope that your reasons for not transitioning are good ones, ones that you can benefit from so you can enjoy life. Transitioning isn't easy... being a transsexual, transitioning or not, isn't easy. It's not something to gloat about or hold over anyone's head... it's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

EDIT:


This thread PRESUMED you are transsexual..and asked an interesting question...
and people gave thoughtful caring answers...positive answers...

and then people got on the soapbox about transsexuals and how somehow "we have all the answers, and we don't understand"...blah blah....it came from nowhere...followed by "you tell em's".....

WTF

It's just a fact of life that people end up at different places...folks that have transitioned KNOW what is given up...folks that haven't dont... this is a permanent forever conflict..the gap is gonna be there.
People that transition will doubt people that dont...they just will..and people that don't will look at transitioners with a mix of feelings that apparently includes envy..

Its especially silly to go on about how someone that transitioned feels better than you...frankly when i read stories about how people stuck it out with their families, or stuck it out for a job, it makes me feel inadequate that i couldn't make it ..
i got divorced, i lost my job...what a loser... i guess i should just keep my mouth shut around all you people that can hold off transition better than i could...sounds kind of ridiculous, no??

And of course you get here first and say what I'm trying to say... but much better. *shakes fist*

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaz,

It is sad that you feel somehow diminished by the discussion here. I have always thought that being gender variant is no lesser of a burden than being transsexual. In fact to me it is clear, that in many cases being gender variant is a much greater burden. You ask if I know what it is like to need to transition and not being able to? I transitioned at age 56 because prior to that point in my life I could not. Not that anyone imposed a prohibition on me but rather I had made decisions early in my life, the consequences of which placed responsibilities and obligations on me that made it impossible for me to transition until I was at this age.

Your statement below says to me that you are transsexual, yet in an earlier post you say this:


and I am too old to be prepared to do surgery and HRT just for a few more years of illusion...

I am not sure what the illusion would be. There is no cost/benefit to transitioning, both hormone therapy and surgery other than to be whole, to be congruent for those that are transsexual. For someone who experiences gender variance there is no threshold which you can cross to be whole in this sense. I hope I do get it, and as I stated in my comment these matters are never about validity only about understanding. My biography has no greater value than yours.




You see, you really don't get it do you (not you personally Lea (utmost respect! seriously!)... but the broader TS 'labelled' community)? I don't need to transition? This feeling is so dismissive of others and appear to have no empathy with what others are going through.

OK I can see the argument that we 'lesser mortals' shouldn't be posting here...

Have you any idea about what it is like to NEED to transition... but you CAN'T....

No you don't.... Get out of your boxes and look around the place... PLEASE!

[Lorileah]

This thread PRESUMED you are transsexual..and asked an interesting question...
and people gave thoughtful caring answers...positive answers...

and then people got on the soapbox about transsexuals and how somehow "we have all the answers, and we don't understand"...blah blah....it came from nowhere...followed by "you tell em's".....



Moderator for this section feel free to remove this post but I have to say something. Something that has bothered me for a long time here. It is the idea that Transsexuals HAVE to have surgery. My post was stating that some of us feel we are beyond and age where surgery will be an advantage to US. That we are in reality just as transsexual as the ops, as the hormonals. The first posts were leading to the "You are not trans if you don't have surgery and you should NEVER have an excuse not to." I am militant in that I want everyone to be able to have what they want and not have anyone tell them they cannot. When a TS says "You have to...or you are not a TS" here it bugs the heck out of me. When the first posts were calling people like me out for being less than, I had to post and from the responses there are many of us who fall in the "I ain't having surgery" category. OK it isn't age, I just don't think in MY time of life which is later, that the advantages of surgery outweigh the happiness I have with who I am. I am so over the class warfare here

[Bree-asaurus]

It is sad that you feel somehow diminished by the discussion here. I have always thought that being gender variant is no lesser of a burden than being transsexual. In fact to me it is clear, that in many cases being gender variant is a much greater burden.

I have to agree here... I don't know what it's like to be between two genders. Easier, harder, I don't know. One thing I do know, however, is that at least transsexuals can transition and be themselves and still fit into society's binary society. We're still one or the other. It's harder for people to wrap their heads around someone who isn't male or female, or who is somewhere in between.


Moderator for this section feel free to remove this post but I have to say something. Something that has bothered me for a long time here. It is the idea that Transsexuals HAVE to have surgery. My post was stating that some of us feel we are beyond and age where surgery will be an advantage to US. That we are in reality just as transsexual as the ops, as the hormonals. The first posts were leading to the "You are not trans if you don't have surgery and you should NEVER have an excuse not to." I am militant in that I want everyone to be able to have what they want and not have anyone tell them they cannot. When a TS says "You have to...or you are not a TS" here it bugs the heck out of me. When the first posts were calling people like me out for being less than, I had to post and from the responses there are many of us who fall in the "I ain't having surgery" category. OK it isn't age, I just don't think in MY time of life which is later, that the advantages of surgery outweigh the happiness I have with who I am. I am so over the class warfare here

You said this before and I agreed with you that transsexuals don't HAVE to have surgery... many people also agree. You're taking what one or two people say and making sound like ALL transsexuals are on a war saying that if you don't have surgery you aren't transsexual.

Are you actually reading what we are saying or do you just have this chip on your shoulder and won't actually open your ears (or eyes...)?

Again, transition does not require surgery. And this is coming from a transexual that has already had partial surgery down there and WILL get full SRS as soon as things fall into place.

Can you accept the fact that the majority of transsexuals here aren't against you??? It sure sounds like you're fighting this one woman war that nobody sees but you.

[ReineD]

It's harder for people to wrap their heads around someone who isn't male or female, or who is somewhere in between.

And also for people who do feel they are female 100% but who also feel so bound by family obligations (or not wanting to lose their families, or their standing in their professions and communities), that they straddle the line between having to pretend to be male, and being who they feel they are internally.

I think that being trans in any way, shape, or form is difficult, each group has it's own challenges, even the TSs who have fully transitioned and have lost families, friends, and jobs.

It's nice to read about people who retain their spouses, families, and their jobs and honestly I wish that everyone could accomplish this and be who they are with a minimum of losses.

[Bree-asaurus]

Ans also for people who do feel they are female 100% but who also feel so bound by family obligations (or not wanting to lose their families, or their standing in their professions and communities), that they straddle the line between having to pretend to be male, and being who they feel they are internally.

That's true as well. Most people lump everyone into the same category, so to them, someone who is somewhere in between and someone who can only express themselves on occasion are both just weirdos. And that's not to say that we trannies aren't all weirdos too :P

nobody take my usage of the word 'weirdos' seriously... I'm just joking around :)

[Aprilrain]

When I was 29 I thought I was too old. When I was 34 it no longer mattered, nothing mattered, I wanted to die. I gave transition a try, who knows, being TS may kill me yet.

[Jonianne]

.....nobody take my usage of the word 'weirdos' seriously... I'm just joking around :)

I like the word "eccentric". So many of the TS's I know tend to be a bit eccentric and I know I am too. :)

[Michelle.M]

I'm not dead so I guess I'm not too old.

and Lea, I'll bet i'm older than you are.

[Bree-asaurus]

I tried to say this in a previous post... but I want to say it again...

Things change with time. How we feel about ourselves, our lives and our choices change. It's rare to find someone that is in the same place in their life, or their transition or their journey of self discovery as yourself.

So rather than arguing over every little opinion that someone has to say, can we just share our experiences and consider the fact that each of us may not know what it's like to be where another is at? Maybe keep a sense that 'even if I don't understand, I'll accept, tolerate, or what have you'?

[Beth-Lock]

Of all the reasons I read for not transitioning, being too old is the one that puzzles me .... I don't understand it, considering age in itself. One might have health issues that prevent hormones or surgeries....Does anyone really think age is an issue for themselves?
The problem is that health issues and being old are linked, aren't they? I know a transgendered woman well up in her seventies, who, after having heart surgery recently, had to have her hormone therapy stopped. But, after the Standards of Care were revised last year, hormone therapy is no longer required as a prerequisite to Gender Correction Surgery, that is not such a crucial issue any more. However, just with a dicky heart, Gender Correction Surgery becomes a much bigger risk.

Another factor is that a full transition can take a long time, for not everyone can breeze through it in a couple of years, for a variety of reasons. With me, age has been an issue. I have undergone counselling from the time when I started actively seeking transition, eight years ago! I still haven't had Gender Correction Surgery. Neither have I been approved for hormone therapy yet. (And the local endocrinology clinic has lost my file yet again.)

When you get older, you do start to count the years you have to your death rather than the years from your birth, as someone observed, and you can see the road ahead ending at some point. The worry is that you will run out of road, just as you are settling in comfortably for a nice, long cruise along the highway of life.

[Bree-asaurus]

The problem is that health issues and being old are linked, aren't they? I know a transgendered woman well up in her seventies, who, after having heart surgery recently, had to have her hormone therapy stopped. But, after the Standards of Care were revised last year, hormone therapy is no longer required as aprerequisite to Gender Correction Surgery, that is not such a crucial issue any more. However, just with a dicky heart, Gender Correction Surgery becomes a much bigger risk.
With me, age has been an issue. I have undergone counselling from the time when I started actively seeking transition, eight years ago! I still haven't had Gender Correction Surgery. When you get older, you do start to count the years you have to your death rather than the years from your birth, as someone observed, and you can see the road ahead ending at some point. The worry is that you will run out of road, just as you are settling in comfortably for a nice, long cruise along the highway of life.

But you don't NEED SRS or HRT to be yourself... especially if it is a major health risk. See a therapist. In time they can give you the letter you need for a gender marker change on your license and so on. You can live your life as yourself without hormones and without surgery...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Moderator for this section feel free to remove this post but I have to say something. Something that has bothered me for a long time here. It is the idea that Transsexuals HAVE to have surgery. My post was stating that some of us feel we are beyond and age where surgery will be an advantage to US. That we are in reality just as transsexual as the ops, as the hormonals. The first posts were leading to the "You are not trans if you don't have surgery and you should NEVER have an excuse not to." I am militant in that I want everyone to be able to have what they want and not have anyone tell them they cannot. When a TS says "You have to...or you are not a TS" here it bugs the heck out of me. When the first posts were calling people like me out for being less than, I had to post and from the responses there are many of us who fall in the "I ain't having surgery" category. OK it isn't age, I just don't think in MY time of life which is later, that the advantages of surgery outweigh the happiness I have with who I am. I am so over the class warfare here


You are pulling my posts out and not even reading them..if you choose to quote me, please make it about something i actually said.

i never said anything about surgery except to "not get caught up in it"... who the heck is telling you what you can and cannot have??

Your problem is not that some group of ts women don't respect your choice...your problem is that you did not and don't plan to transition... that is a very big problem to have.

Nobody is better or worse..you are just making it up that somehow I would think i am better than you when clearly i am not (other than that i make much more directly to the point comments...ahem)

The class warfare that you are "so over" in this thread is totally and 100% because of you.

[Beth-Lock]

But you don't NEED SRS or HRT to be yourself... ... But I don't want to be myself, not my old self!


See a therapist. ... I have been seeing two therapists (at the same time) for years, after the failure of the first therapist to get to the root of my problems, eight years ago, after a reasonably long course of therapy and counselling.


In time they can give you the letter you need for a gender marker change on your license and so on. You can live your life as yourself without hormones and without surgery... Done that, but my birth certificate and health card can't be changed without the surgery. I got an annoying reminder of that the last time I went to the ER, and the doctor printed in big block letters on the top of his diagnosis form, "PATIENT IS A MAN." And all I had was an infected thumb which he lanced. He never had to look under my pretty skirt. Ditto every time I go to the doctor, when of course you have to either present your health card or they look up all the data in the computer anyway.

And oh yes, I have been living as a woman full time for three years and counting. But I am getting tired of those two basketballs getting in the way of my walking like a woman, wearing a bathing suit or most women's pants, not to mention feeling sexless. And then, too many people do not think I am sexless, and suspect that I am still an inherently predatory man underneath it all, and not to be trusted in the company of women and children.

[Sharon]

I just want to remind people that this Transsexual section is open to all to post in, no matter if they are transsexual or not. It would be, however, a great help if a non-transsexual understands what section this is before they choose to post an opinion -- you run a good chance of posting irrelevantly and confusingly to others. Transsexuals and crossdressers are different, but I hope everyone understands that one is no better than another -- we are simply distinct in sometimes similar sometimes not ways.

If transsexuals want only other transsexuals to respond to a thread, I suggest you apply to join the Safe Haven private group if you have not already done so. In the meantime, I am determinedly weary of accusations of elitism being tossed back and forth among the membership.

[Bree-asaurus]

But I don't want to be myself, not my old self!

I have been seeing two therapists (at the same time) for years, after the failure of the first therapist to get to the root of my problems, eight years ago, after a reasonably long course of therapy and counselling.

Done that, but my birth certificate and health card can't be changed without the surgery. I got an annoying reminder of that the last time I went to the ER, and the doctor printed in big block letters on the top of his diagnosis form, "PATIENT IS A MAN." And all I had was an infected thumb which he lanced. He never had to look under my pretty skirt. Ditto every time I go to the doctor, when of course you have to either present your health card or they look up all the data in the computer anyway.

And oh yes, I have been living as a woman full time for three years and counting. But I am getting tired of those two basketballs getting in the way of my walking like a woman, wearing a bathing suit or most women's pants, not to mention feeling sexless. And then, too many people do not think I am sexless, and suspect that I am still an inherently predatory man underneath it all, and not to be trusted in the company of women and children.

Find a better therapist if you aren't happy with the one you have lol. I lucked out... my first therapist was chosen because I got a TON of recommendations... and he totally deserved them.

Gah, yeah... different states have different rules. I live in TX who hates trannies. But thankfully I was born in CA so I can change my birth cert no problem. But why can't your health insurance be changed? If you get a court order, that should be all you need. Maybe you dealt with a bunch of a-holes the first time... try again!

I totally understand about the basketballs. I'm lucky and I just got rid of mine. I wish you could feel what I feel :(

I have terrible memory, so even though I've been here for a while, it's hard for me to remember where everyone is at. So if I made assumptions, please don't take it personally.


I just want to remind people that this Transsexual section is open to all to post in, no matter if they are transsexual or not. It would be, however, a great help if a non-transsexual understands what section this is before they choose to post an opinion -- you run a good chance of posting irrelevantly and confusingly to others. Transsexuals and crossdressers are different, but I hope everyone understands that one is no better than another -- we are simply distinct in sometimes similar sometimes not ways.

If transsexuals want only other transsexuals to respond to a thread, I suggest you apply to join the Safe Haven private group if you have not already done so. In the meantime, I am determinedly weary of accusations of elitism being tossed back and forth among the membership.

QFT (quoted for truth) lol....

[Cindi Johnson]

I'll side with Lorileah. First, so many here have this "my way or the highway" attitude; if you're not having surgery, then you don't belong here as you're just a poser. Well, I currently don't plan on having surgery, yet I have little in common with the crossdressers and their section either. I have simply labeled myself transgendered; I never refer to myself as a TS or as a CD. Does that mean I should avoid the TS section completely? Whatever...

Anyway, at 61 I am in a sense too old to get much use from a vagina. Nearly all guys my age are repulsive (fat slobs with narrow minds), so even if I had a vagina, I would not want them to enter it. No way! Were I twenty again, of course my decision would likely be different. But I'm not gonna be a beautiful young lady. Not ever.

So, do I want to be a typical 61 year old woman? Look around. There's a reason men don't pursue 60 year old women.

Thanks in part to hormones, I have a better female body than nearly any woman my age. I pass easily and enjoy being female (24-7 is a not too distant of a goal), yet I still feel thrill and excitement when I meet a good looking female.

Sometimes choices are all gray and none are black and white. Except, it seems, to some of you on this website.

[LeaP]

I'm not dead so I guess I'm not too old.

and Lea, I'll bet i'm older than you are.

I doubt it!

You go first ...

[LeaP]

To All,

Had I known this thread would have produced such controversy, I would never have started it. Many of you are friends or those whose contributions I actively look for and read with consideration.

It wasn't worth the fight.

[elizabethamy]

yes, but Lea, there are some on this forum who have chronically low blood pressure and they need the stimulation from a good ruckus. So you deserve thanks for starting it. When is your surgery?

elizabethamy

[ReineD]

I'm not dead so I guess I'm not too old.

and Lea, I'll bet i'm older than you are.


I doubt it!

You go first ...


Wait! Let me go have a look ...




.... not telling! :lalala:

[Bree-asaurus]

Sometimes choices are all gray and none are black and white. Except, it seems, to some of you on this website.

There are always going to be people that judge you and people that disagree with you. There will always be people that don't understand. Might as well get used to it.

[Beth-Lock]

Find a better therapist if you aren't happy with the one you have lol.....

I have the best two in my city. The others are either not accepting patients hardly at all, or whatever. It is basically a monopoly here. Attempts to establish a TS/gender clinic here have repeatedly failed, because no doctor could be found to do this sort of work. The doctor I have, (a psychiatrist, one of my two therapists), doesn't even live in my city, but commutes one day a week, as she works mostly in a forensic hospital 50 miles away in another town. (Now, she is no longer accepting new patients either and in fact, is nearing retirement.) At one point, I seriously considered commuting to a neighbouring city 100 miles away for each appointment there, but that would not have got me everything I needed either.


.. different states (sic) have different rules. I live in TX who (sic) hates trannies. But thankfully I was born in CA so I can change my birth cert no problem. But why can't your health insurance be changed? If you get a court order, that should be all you need. ....

The rules are inflexible. And we don't sue a lot. For one thing you generally have to get the government's permission to sue the government (Health card is government.) And unlike Stateside, you may have to pay your opposite number's legal fees if you lose. That could be a bundle because they might put a whole team of lawyers on it. These sorts of factors explain why we don't sue so much up here.




Had I known this thread would have produced such controversy, I would never have started it. ... It wasn't worth the fight.

This forum is starting to remind me of the country dances I heard of from others, where everyone is having a good time until the bullies start a big fight, and those sensible, grab their hat and coat, and make their exit -- what remains of the evening being ruined for the majority.


I'm not dead so I guess I'm not too old and Lea, I'll bet i'm older than you are.

If we are comparing ages, is that before or after we subtract the obligatory five or ten years from our age for the sake of vanity? And who would want to answer that question anyway?

[Kathryn Martin]

Leah, with the greatest respect to everyone who commented here, if this is considered a controversy then I wonder what a real controversy would look like. I think we tend to be overly sensitive regarding the matters over which we need to have conversations. Age and older transsexuals and their choices are one of those. I do not see that there is anything in this thread that could even be construed as a personal attack on anyone, which for me is the signpost for a discussion gone awry. If we all stopped talking about the uncomfortable things we would end up being the "you go girl" club and the site would turn to mush in a heartbeat. It is regrettable that you would feel you should not have started this thread.

When matters are raised in the general sense that they were here, and people feel that they are spoken to directly, even though the commentary is neutral and not directed at them, it would indicate to me that some value exists in their life that needs to be spoken to. In my view this would be an opportunity not a controversy even though there may be painful aspects to it. I have had those moments many times here on the board, in some I made a vocal comment in some cases it allowed me to think about my values and thoughts in a different way. That is never a bad thing.

This is a good thread, an important thread because it connects certain values which we hold to the realities of life. It also reveals how fundamentally human we all are. It always amazes me and fills me with joy to see how people are in control of their lives and how directed their lives are from their heads and their hearts. It is always worth seeing this and always do I learn something, so thank you ......

Kathryn



To All,

Had I known this thread would have produced such controversy, I would never have started it. Many of you are friends or those whose contributions I actively look for and read with consideration.

It wasn't worth the fight.

[Sandra1746]

I didn't expect to see this level of response but I think I need to add a bit more. What has been lacking, IMHO, are some definitions. The definitions I use below come from the Wikipedia entries for Transgender and the Benjamin Scale.

What I think we are seeing here is the insistence that to be a real transsexual you have to begin transition or conversion. The problem here is that it then only applies to levels 5 and 6 of the Benjamin Scale. Benjamin identifies a level 4 "Non-surgical Transsexual" as one who has considered a conversion operation (surgery) but did not pursue it [for unspecified reasons]. The level 3 on the Benjamin Scale is the True Transvestite.

Benjamin never used the term "transgender", it was invented somewhat later and is more of a "broad brush" treatment of the topic. I use it because it represents my situation as falling into levels 3 and 4 of the Benjamin Scale with perhaps more of the level 4 attributes applying. Therefore while I can self identify as transgender I can also self identify as meeting most of the criteria of a non-surgical transsexual. The two terms are not mutually exclusive in any sense with transgender including (most probably) the Benjamin Scale levels 3, 4, and 5.

For these reasons I feel that my responses to the OP are quite appropriate.

We here are a minority community. If one accepts the Benjamin scale the "transgender" portion of the community is a subset of the CD-universe. The Level 5 and 6 transsexuals on the Benjamin Scale are a still-smaller subset. We can take some instruction from another Benjamin; Franklin that is, who told his fellow revolutionaries that "...if we do not hang together, we shall all hang separately."

Moving forward together,
Sandra1746

[LeaP]

...I do not see that there is anything in this thread that could even be construed as a personal attack on anyone, which for me is the signpost for a discussion gone awry. ...

When matters are raised in the general sense that they were here, and people feel that they are spoken to directly, even though the commentary is neutral and not directed at them, it would indicate to me that some value exists in their life that needs to be spoken to. ...

Thank you, Kathryn, this is helpful. Excepting a couple of responses in the thread, I agree with it.

I thought to list a number of typical age-related considerations (health, wealth, etc.) as discussion points, but thought instead I would make this more personal by blowing out what I think of when considering age.

I've already mentioned embarrassment at presenting with gender issues as a middle-aged male to my therapist, making a remark about age. In a way it was sort of a preemptive comment - as if to accept and acknowledge the expected dismissal. It's also partly an expression of privilege in a rather pathetic attempt to maintain dignity as a function of position ... and age. Easy to see now, not so easy to see then.

Considering lifespan remaining (the forward look), I have reached a point in life where thoughts of my mortality are frequent, but this doesn't concern me. I'm definitely in the mode of thinking that something, for a while, is far better than nothing. People in my family also tend to live long lives, though there are no guarantees, obviously.

Considering the investment in my life to-date (the backward view), I see mostly an emotional wasteland, punctuated by only a few bright spots. Emotionally and psychologically there is little in myself that I feel a need to retain going forward.

Considering age-related health, I have some typical issues, but nothing that would stand in the way of transition. Not a consideration for me.

Considering wealth, while I am not rich, I am quite well-off. I'm an exec in a large multi-national. I live in a large home in a wealthy suburb. While I have my share of financial issues, they are more in the management category, not need. I do have age considerations here. They are potential loss of position versus ability to gain re-employment, a relatively short timeframe to retirement, and obligations to cover. Losses at this age could be irrecoverable. I would have little or no concern about this up to about 40 or so. At 56 (Michelle?) it is a real concern. Even here, though, that concern is more for my wife than it is for me.

Considering appearance and passability, I'm better off than some, not as well off as some others. My avatar makes me look like my sister - encouraging in one sense, distressing in another! This may sound trivial, but aging and hair loss cause me some real angst. Wigs are HORRIBLE things! Aging coarsens male features. Mine are no exception. As a result of all this, I have some age-related concerns and fears in this area, but they don't rise to a level of preventing transition. I have no desire or need to emulate a 20 or 30-something. Any reasonably-passable middle-aged female presentation would be just fine. Someone in the thread mentioned the appearance and desirability of middle-aged women. I think there are many fine-looking women of age and desirability doesn't remotely enter into my thinking.

Age as it relates to gender privilege is interesting. Males retain theirs. It may actually increase, depending on things like position. Middle-aged women, on the other hand, complain almost universally about their invisibility. This is evidently a concern for some. It is not for me. I dislike being in the spotlight intensely, I'm something of a loner anyway, and prefer quiet and anonymity. Not a consideration for me.

So there are several examples of how age-related concerns play for ME. Your mileage will definitely vary. With the possible exception of retirement income concerns, avoiding transition on the basis of them FOR ME would be excuses, as the urgency of my gender issues overwhelms the concerns.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There are alot of very open and friendly people in this forum.. kathryn, lea bree..etc...have you read the posts?

To take their contributions and make a stink out of it by saying there is "class warfare", a "hierarchy", and "us vs them" is unproductive and not thoughtful..

For those of you reading this thread, and that are going back forth trying to decide how to best live so you can have the best quality of life, the folks with this chip on your shoulder are highlighting a part of what its going to be like....it doesnt feel very good to not transition if you are ts.... and some honesty about the matter would be helpful..

there are bad apples in every bunch...there are posters that have the attitude that there is an us vs them...none of them posted on this thread ...respond to them!
...don't be pulling my messages or bree's or lea's out and sticking this crap on us...its disrespectful and its bs...

Every single person in this thread is on record here as saying that being ts is a difficult situation. and that to "be ts", there is no reason for you have to do anything...

... the harshest thought expressed here is that lots of people make excuses for not transitioning, and those that have transitioned blew past them....well guess what, what we did!! ...forgive us if any of us take pride that we overcame our fears and issues to transition...in any case, the comments were positive and helpful...

so if you feel you are in the back of the class, its not because you are not transitioning, its because you are not paying attention..
The benjamin standards are a piece of paper,,, i never heard of them until after i transitioned...i don't care about them now....in any case, they don't rank us in order of who is better or worse..

to me if it really bothers you that you are a 4 instead of 5 , then you need to look in the mirror, not at me...

and if it doesnt bother you, whats the problem? and if a couple of big mouths bother you so much that you need to yell at me about it, then again i point you to the mirror..

i would ask you to be more specific and thoughtful about responses to people that are geniunely just trying to keep things honest and productive....

[Kathryn Martin]

I should really respond by adding my perspective on the considerations you have raised. Bear in mind that I transitioned at the same age that you are now contemplating, as a self-employed professional who relies entirely on his clients and the professional environment in which I function to earn income.

Embarrassment: Over my lifetime I have acquired an infinite capacity to embarrass myself over matters that really count. What stood at the beginning of my transition was my realization that I was done accommodating the world any longer. I have never given much stock about what people think about me, since that is more a reflection of their values than my reality. So embarrass away.....

Life span: I have always embraced my mortality for a variety of reasons which would go to far in this context. Suffice it to say that the circle of life contains this element and I am at peace with it. Once I transitioned I experienced with tremendous clarity that if I died tomorrow I would have had a great life even with one day of being complete and whole. I have traveled my road and it contained happiness and joy, sorrow and pain and what more can I ask for, biographically speaking I am a princess not a beggar.

Life-to-date: Who I am is woven into the fabric of my life and why would I want to start pulling the threads and unravel, while the reality of my first 56 years fades into this tapestry and becomes lost in it's vibrant colors, I still identify threads and motives that have been with me as long as I can remember and I cherish them. There is no threat in this for me, it made me who I am today as a human being and for that I am grateful.

Health: you are dealt the genetic lottery and suffer the consequences of your actions as you get older. I am no exception. It is never to late to work on your overall health, now if I could only quit smoking I'd be elated.

Wealth: I echo what you said I am comfortable but not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I have to rely on my continued ability to earn my keep until one day I'll drop dead. While not a choice it is what it is.

Passability: I'm ok........

Gender Privilege: This has been an eye opener. We will see how this evolves. My male privilege was left at the admissions office.....

[Julia_in_Pa]

Everyone,

I have not had SRS. I still have everything I came into this world with. That also includes some internal female organ development.
Because I still have my male genitalia does that make me male? Of course not.

I've scanned this entire thread over and over again searching for that one reply or sentence that stated that you must have surgery to be considered transitioned.

I didn't find it!!

I've been transitioned for over five years.
I already know I'm a woman.
The hardest thing about any of this is having the courage necessary to do what you have to do.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRANSITION THEN CONSIDER YOURSELF EXTREMELY LUCKY!!!

Those that feel slighted and dismissed because of others " perceived " higher rung on the ladder need to turn their views inward and look at what shortcomings are causing them to feel less than the others.

Using age as an excuse not to transition if you have to is a cop out.
If your stacking excuses as to why you can't transition then you were never supposed to transition to begin with.



Julia

[LeaP]

To take their contributions and make a stink out of it by saying there is "class warfare", a "hierarchy", and "us vs them" is unproductive and not thoughtful..

...

... the harshest thought expressed here is that lots of people make excuses for not transitioning, and those that have transitioned blew past them....well guess what, what we did!! ...forgive us if any of us take pride that we overcame our fears and issues to transition...in any case, the comments were positive and helpful...

so if you feel you are in the back of the class, ...


I've given some thought to the reaction and realized there are really two very different groups among non-transsexuals as it pertains to transition.

The first are the fantasy group. Dreamers, imaginers, sexual fantasies, lifestylers, etc. they like to talk about transition sometimes and it's usually posed as a question: "Would you ever ...", "If you could ...", "Do you think about what it would be like to ...". Etc. These are of no concern to me for the purposes of this thread and this response.

The second are those in the serious or committed crossdresser category. Some live full-time. They typically have innate, strong, cross-gendered feelings, though they will either gender themselves male, bi-gendered, or in-between. I can easily think of several people who fit this description. For these, thoughts of transition are serious, though few will transition in the end. Some do, however, and it's not for me to judge whether or not it's a valid option for them. Some may be transsexual. Many are not.

They are more likely to be sensitive to remarks that seem dismissive of their concerns or identity. That's interesting, because such remarks (e.g., the excuses comments) are actually not dismissive to transsexuals because the considerations are viewed very differently. To one in this non-TS category, transition is a decision that can be made on the basis of weighting criteria. The transsexual, on the other hand, gives primary weight to one question - does my need to be overwhelm any other consideration?

Thus to a transsexual, another transsexual pleading urgency while not moving forward is indeed making excuses. Some may inappropriately view non-TS people's deliberations the same way. The non-TS, in turn, may not understand the transsexual perspective.

To some extent we are simply talking past each other. To the topic, age considerations weigh differently between the groups, legitimately, in my view.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Exactly true Lea..well said...

I am aiming at people that are trying to "decide"...i am trying to share experience..

Excuses may be a slightly prejorative word... it may not sound "good" to someone...but its an apt word.

the other side of the coin, often ignored, is that when i read about people that talk how their responsibilities to their family or their job trumps being ts...i wonder if i am the weak one...did i screw up my family and hurt everyone around me because of my selfish act??? looking back i know i didn't...looking back i know i did the right thing and handled it well, so i take a positive view that anything is possible if you want it that badly... in the end, it may almost impossible to talk about this without making somebody "feel bad"...

It's interesting because in my long time face to face therapy group (which i recently left) ...the transitioners were basically kicked out to another group... in years of meetings i never noticed conflict...lots of sad moments, lots of hugs and support, but over a period of time, the folks that didn't transition expressed that they couldn't stand us and they splintered off to have thier own group...some still came to our group..but not the other way...

+++++

one thought to your OP! how's that for a change?

another factor in the age question is that what i have seen in the last five years is that people that don't transition, and are truly transsexual (and again, this is just a presumption, i have no idea who is and who isn't and dont care) always suffer more and more..

here's a quote from Anne Vitale, one of the most inclusive and thoughtful folks out there on this issue...some of her writings are really really powerful and i've linked to them many times...

the section is on older "transsexuals" (she focuses much more on the mental anxiety around gender variance and not on definitions, but does differentiate behavior and identity)

Some gender dysphoric individuals proceed into their senior years with their needs and desires to be female still unresolved. Even now the natal male's feelings about the matter may be as strong as ever.
......

The issues these individuals face are now very different. Concerns about how to be a father to young children, maintain a career, and establish intimate relationships have lessened. New, less resolvable issues emerge. Along with low self esteem brought on from years of self denial, these individuals must now contend with a deteriorating male body.

Along with balding and paunchiness, there are more serious health issues to consider if an older person wishes to transition to the other gender role. Cardiac disorders, gastro intestinal disorders, diabetes and, often, liver dysfunction due to a life time of alcohol abuse are some of the most common..................

There is one other problem this population faces. In interviews, one gets the impression that the struggle to contain their gender expression deprivation anxiety--in and of itself--has become deeply ingrained in their psyche. It is as if the gender dysphoria has become a critical component of who they have become. Characteristically these people can be described as sad, depressed and deeply resentful. In treating these individuals, the best that can be done is to help them feel better about cross-dressing and encourage them to have contact with other crossdressers their age. Success of sorts can be as simple as helping someone find the courage to shave off a moustache behind which he has been hiding his gender issues for forty years.

I read this when i was 45 years old, i crumbled to the ground crying...i didn't get up for a long time...and when i stood up, i said, ...nope, not me, NO F***ING WAY ..and that as they say was that...

[elizabethamy]

The people on this board (mostly the ones in this thread) have taught me more than I could have imagined when I signed on last November. One thing I have learned, despite my own impatience to know everything, is that revelations and actions have their seasons. If it's your time, and you feel it the way Kaitlyn Michele so eloquently describes after reading Anne Vitale, then your job is to act in a way that is harmonious and helpful to yourself. If it's not your time, you're not quite ready, you think you need to do other things first, then your feelings must not be intense enough to require immediate action/transition.

The goal is to live a good life, to be comfortable in your own skin, to be happy, to help others. Whether that can only be done through surgery, or even transition, is a function both of age and opportunity but also of intensity. The end of the road is the end of the road. At any age. At the current rate, I will be over 80 when my mortgage is paid off. In other words, I'm planning to stick around. So there is no too late, no HBIGDA classification, no COGIATI score, no prescription,certainly no time frame, to any of it. What each of us has is a life to live, individually, taking in all the best input from within and without (the folks on this board and others), and going forward from there. The beauty of it is that each of us is unique yet we are gathered here because we have something quite special in common. We are a community, but just as is the case with job performance, family relationships, raising your children, etc, at the end of the day all we have is our selves to ask: am I doing the right thing? To be able to answer yes, honestly, but also to revisit the question as circumstances and dysphorias change...

...this is where I am. I am not interested in a hierarchy. I am interested in my own situation and in that of others here whose openness has made them part of my life. There's so much to learn from all our (your) examples and advice. But, as Julia often says, in the end you have to make these decisions alone, no matter how old or married or poor or inconvenienced you are. Everyone's mileage will always vary!

elizabethamy

[*Vanessa*]

Yes for me age IS an issue both figuratively and literally speaking.

[Jonianne]

.....the other side of the coin, often ignored, is that when i read about people that talk how their responsibilities to their family or their job trumps being ts...i wonder if i am the weak one...did i screw up my family and hurt everyone around me because of my selfish act??? looking back i know i didn't...looking back i know i did the right thing and handled it well, so i take a positive view that anything is possible if you want it that badly... in the end, it may almost impossible to talk about this without making somebody "feel bad"......

Kaitlyn, you are one of the most balanced woman on this forum and about as open and inclusive as anyone around. I don't understand how anyone could misjudge your comments. Kaitlyn, my first wife and I divorced because of my crossdressing. I could feel guilty and bad for letting something that was not even on the level as being TS end my marriage. However like in your situation, it worked out for the better, because I tried my best to try to work it out. And when I couldn't, I did what was necessary to maintain a proper relationship with her and my kids, only separate, just like you did. There are many paths a person can take, but if you keep a good heart, which ever path you end up taking seems to end up being the right one when it's all said and done. Kaitlyn, you are one of those I pray for every night.

Lorileah you are a wonderful lady as well and I'm sad that you and some others seem to have misunderstood Kaitlyn's positions. She has a heart of gold and I know you do too. I just hate to see hard feelings between good people.

EDIT:

Being too old to transition?

I don't believe you can be too old. You may be past the age and time where you won't be able to transition as far as you might have, when you were younger, but it's never too late to start and go as far as your life situation allows you.

I'm a believer in the "when the time is right, you will" idea. That is how I feel about myself. I will never beat myself up about not transitioning earlier. Certain things had to happen in my life, my mind and thought process and in the life of others and even in societies perspectives for someone with my personality to be able to begin transition. When all that aligned, like the stars, then I knew it was my time. It took me to age 55 to begin.

[Chloe Renee]

Too old, yes there is a point of too old, It is about the second shovel of earth hitting the box. At that point you are too old. Other than that nope. Granted that is only my opinion. I have regrets that I didn't start 15 years ago, but I am doing my best to make up for lost time.



Time will catch all of us by surprise.
To quote Pink Floyd from the song " Time " " Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. "
Julia
I used this lyric just the other day in an email friend that is just starting her transition. She was saying that now was not a good time for her to start that life was too (excuse here)...
Social transition is the hardest part IMO, the more you have invested in your male life/self the harder it is. And lets face it most of us are a little bit lazy, and transitioning is hard work.

[Kaz]

OK... apologies all! I am in the UK and so in a differnet timezone, which presents challenges to real time social media sites. Over here it is 2.21 in the mornng and I am not feeling sleepy... I have got on a different timeframe thanks to a crazy job and an even crazier life-style!

Reading through the posts... I seem to have created a stir that I hadn't realised and couldn't come back to...

I'd like to put some things into (my) perspective...

I am a great believer that true learning comes through challenge and debate... even when it gets heated... and sometimes the more heated the better.

I have the ultimate respect for everyone who goes through everything it takes to physically make those changes... I know people who have and am very familiar with the procedures currently being used...

There was a debate here about whether or not SRS and HRT DEFINED TS... now I have said quite often how I have a problem with this categorisation because it leads to defence against 'apparent' attack and the if we are not careful, warfare... just look at the Balkans and the Middle East - go back in time and look at Europe and then the USA...

We are not enemies, we are in the same 'country', we just have different places to be...

I am struggling with my GID, which is what I think it is if I have to find a label... which means I could be TS (OK... potentially as I haven't had any corrective procedurse), but then I may not be... does this make me a lesser person? OK, I suspect the answer is yes...

Lori nailed a point for me and Julia got it too... is it possible to feel and relate to TS if a) you haven't 'done it yet' and b) you wish you could but various reasons can't... or it is c) just not appropriate...

This is my problem with categories... there isn't a one size fits all!

I love Lea, Kaitlyn, Julia's views... respect them (even if I have problems)... and they inform my thinking and learning about who I am!

I love all of you and totally respect your experiences, knowledge etc...

I also think Lori was bang on for me... there are many of us in the CD category... who don't relate with many other CDs who aren't quite in the same place (fetish CDs for example)... so when we get people fom the 'CD' side who want to talk on TS posts... sometimes it is a mistake (as Reine pointed out), but sometimes it is because that where
our heads are exploring... ie are we really TS or not?

Tolerance and acceptance of diversity are good things to embrace...

[ReineD]

so when we get people fom the 'CD' side who want to talk on TS posts... sometimes it is a mistake (as Reine pointed out), but sometimes it is because that where
our heads are exploring... ie are we really TS or not?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean a 'mistake' in the sense that CDs and TSs should stick to their sides of the forum. I meant that subconsciously, most of us tailor our message for an intended audience and if a CDer posts in this thread believing she is in in the CDing section, she may well place more emphasis on certain things than otherwise.

I do this all the time. Sharon explained it much better than I did. :)

[Kaz]

I wasn't picking up on you personally Reine... more the motivation for some us mixed up individuals when we get beaten up on by these guys... most of us come with good intent because many of us may be potentially TS, or at least TS in out heads... and then we get beaten the crap out of... hence the comments about 'hierarchy'... I am happy to be way down the food chain... story of my life... but for many this really hurts and in some cases quite badly...

This is why I bang on about 'categories'...

I currently have so much empathy and feeling for what BadTranny is going through and it does bring me to tears... is it relevant to me...? Oh yes, so much... I can't even begin to explain!

[ReineD]

No, I don't feel picked on ... :)

You gave me the opportunity to redress a post I had made earlier, that I didn't feel was stated adequately.

[Bree-asaurus]

Aren't we missing the fact that it's not just cross dressers and transsexuals? There are tons of variations in between. Kaz, I don't know if you feel if you are TS or not, but you don't sound like a CD to me. You sound like you have a large part of you that identifies as a woman. If you are dressing as the gender you identify as (or mostly, or partly identify as), then I don't really think it's cross dressing at all. You're not wearing women's cloths BECAUSE they are women's cloths, you are wearing women's cloths because part, or all, of you identifies as a woman.

[Voulez-Vous]

we literally CANT NOT transition, or we start to feel like dying... if you don't feel this way, you are lucky!


This is 100% correct. If you really were TS and needed to transition, it's not exactly a choice. It's something you MUST do. If you don't feel this way, you're probably not TS.

[LisaMallon]

No Kaz you are right. Life is a series of compromises and judgement calls. You never get them right you just do the best you can.

Age is a factor that makes transition more difficult, not impossible just harder.

Health is one. Personally I'll be gutted if I find I can't take hormones due to some health issue (that I'm currently unaware of).
Operations (whether GRS, BA or FFS) are much more difficult the older you get. Your recovery is slower and the risks greater.
Habits. You have built up habits of moving, acting, speaking over so many years that are very difficult to overcome.
Relationships. The world is full of people (of all sexes) that have given up their dreams because their family is more important. Responsibility to others vs responsibility to yourself. A lot of people find it easier to suffer themselves rather than hurt someone(s) they love.
Financial. Because it is much harder to start over again as a different sex than a younger person, many are faced with the prospect of financial ruin. Got to eat.
In the (not so distant) past your only work option would be as a prostitute in many places.
Cultural. You may be from a culture that this is so totally shameful (or dangerous) that you can't deal with it.

So these 'negative feedbacks' are important factors that can inhibit many people doing what they really want to do.

You have a war inside your head, your drives vs this negative feedback. And it never goes away, sometimes you think it has ... then it sneeks up again and again.

As I said before, some lock it all away, perhaps letting it out sometimes through CDing, but that carries its own risks of going to far.
Keeping very busy is one of the simplest, I know I did that one for many years.
Some don't make it and suicide. Looking at male suicide rates you have to wonder that a certain percentage might have been potential TGs, torn internally for years or even decades.
The known TG related suicide rate is horrendous.
And there are the slow suicides, drinking, drugs, excessively risky behaviour, etc.

I have spoken to quite a few long term CD's and some (at least) have admitted that 'if things had been different when they were younger'....
CDing for quite a few is actually a 'simulation' (or that lovely term 'femulation'). For a short time at least you can pretend you are the person you should have been.

For some that is enough, it is manageable. A way to longingly peer over the fence and look at that other life that might have been, while still staying in your garden.

As I said before, I suspect quite a few late transitioners end up being so because they simply become tired.
You just run out of the energy to do all that running away.

And then you start to panic because you might have left it too late.

[kimdl93]

I think age, in and of itself, is irrelevant. If one really, truly desires to transition, it makes no difference...

Honestly, if a person comes up with reasons not to transition, then its probably an accurate reflection of their level of need/motivation. For example...I'll use myself. In my "ideal" world, I'd live full time. And yet I often consider my family, age and physical factors as justification for leaving things as they are. (I spend about 70% of my life en femme.) Still, when you get down to it, I just don't have a compelling need or desire to go all the way.

[Bree-asaurus]

I think age, in and of itself, is irrelevant. If one really, truly desires to transition, it makes no difference...

Honestly, if a person comes up with reasons not to transition, then its probably an accurate reflection of their level of need/motivation. For example...I'll use myself. In my "ideal" world, I'd live full time. And yet I often consider my family, age and physical factors as justification for leaving things as they are. (I spend about 70% of my life en femme.) Still, when you get down to it, I just don't have a compelling need or desire to go all the way.

That's what I keep trying to say. If you need to transition you can find a way that fits your situation. There's no guidebook you have to follow, there's no blueprint you have to lay out.

Family is important. I didn't have a husband or wife or kids to think about, but I did have the rest of my family and friends. And I had an additional group of people who were more than family to me. Very non-nuclear family situation that I won't even begin describing, but I loved them all... and I loved one of them with ALL OF MY HEART... she was everything to me. That's the family I lost... and that was the main cost of my transition (except for job/financial stuff).

So, I do know what it's like to risk transition when you fear you may lose the ones you love the most... and I did lose them, but I did keep ALL of my blood family and all of my friends thankfully. I'm still alive. I'm better off today than I ever was.

[Kaz]

Aren't we missing the fact that it's not just cross dressers and transsexuals? There are tons of variations in between. Kaz, I don't know if you feel if you are TS or not, but you don't sound like a CD to me. You sound like you have a large part of you that identifies as a woman. If you are dressing as the gender you identify as (or mostly, or partly identify as), then I don't really think it's cross dressing at all. You're not wearing women's cloths BECAUSE they are women's cloths, you are wearing women's cloths because part, or all, of you identifies as a woman.

Thanks Bree, I wear the clothes because they feel right and I can feel like 'Kaz' whatever I am wearing to be honest... well, a big test will be the next 10 days when I have to let go of any dressing and go camping with a bunch of bikers and rock musicians! I know that I will be still be me inside, whatever role I play...

[Traci Elizabeth]

I stick to my original post that it is never too late to transition and to have SRS. One member here had her SRS at a late age and the doctor who did her SRS also successfully did SRS on someone who was terminally ill.

I can not think of a better way to go than with being "whole" and congruent.

Which brings me to another point, which I preface as my personal opinion: to be "whole" and congruent as a woman, requires SRS. And as our beloved Kate always proclaims, "women don't have penises".

So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

All right, shoot your arrows now. :bow2:

[Lorileah]

This is 100% correct. If you really were TS and needed to transition, it's not exactly a choice. It's something you MUST do. If you don't feel this way, you're probably not TS.

*fighting to stay out of this but can't*

Voulez-vous. You are fairly new and I will re-iterate, the degree of being anything in the TG spectrum is a continuum, not an absolute. While some here may very well feel that they could not live without surgery and/or hormones there are as many who have reconciled themselves to not having either. It does not mean we aren't one thing or another. Life for everyone is different. Some can have total SRS, some will have partial or none. There is a choice, there is always a choice. Nothing is etched in granite. I totally respect those who have the means and ability to get where ever they are comfortable. I do disagree that there is a hard and fast rule.

Age is an issue for many here in many things. They have been covered and recovered. As I tried to point out, just because I don't have surgery does make me any less or more than anyone else (and most the TS's here I do consider friends). I will restate that the reason I feel I am "too old" is I don't see the advantage to me having surgery. Women in my age bracket don't have the level of hormones and many don't feel the need for the physical parts. I respect that too.

[Bree-asaurus]

I stick to my original post that it is never too late to transition and to have SRS. One member here had her SRS at a late age and the doctor who did her SRS also successfully did SRS on someone who was terminally ill.

I can not think of a better way to go than with being "whole" and congruent.

Which brings me to another point, which I preface as my personal opinion: to be "whole" and congruent as a woman, requires SRS. And as our beloved Kate always proclaims, "women don't have penises".

So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

All right, shoot your arrows now. :bow2:

If I couldn't afford SRS until I was close to the end of my lifespan, I couldn't think of a better way to go out than dying with a body as complete as it could be... even if it only lasted until they finished the procedure and I died in recovery.


*fighting to stay out of this but can't*

Voulez-vous. You are fairly new and I will re-iterate, the degree of being anything in the TG spectrum is a continuum, not an absolute. While some here may very well feel that they could not live without surgery and/or hormones there are as many who have reconciled themselves to not having either. It does not mean we aren't one thing or another. Life for everyone is different. Some can have total SRS, some will have partial or none. There is a choice, there is always a choice. Nothing is etched in granite. I totally respect those who have the means and ability to get where ever they are comfortable. I do disagree that there is a hard and fast rule.

Age is an issue for many here in many things. They have been covered and recovered. As I tried to point out, just because I don't have surgery does make me any less or more than anyone else (and most the TS's here I do consider friends). I will restate that the reason I feel I am "too old" is I don't see the advantage to me having surgery. Women in my age bracket don't have the level of hormones and many don't feel the need for the physical parts. I respect that too.

I would agree with the spectrum thing had she said 'transgender' but she said 'transsexual.' Transsexual is pretty well defined and is the far end of the transgender spectrum.

I would like to again reiterate that she did not mention SRS, HRT or anything like that at all... simply transition. Transition != SRS.

And also, note that her words are 'if you are transsexual AND needed to transition' it's not a choice. I have to agree 100%...

[LeaP]

Women in my age bracket don't have the level of hormones and many don't feel the need for the physical parts.

Interesting point. Even accepting for discussion that transition = SRS, does it become moot at some point in life for some people? (excluding physical inability). Not that congruence itself becomes moot, but that certain types become more important than others?

[Bree-asaurus]

Interesting point. Even accepting for discussion that transition = SRS, does it become moot at some point in life for some people? (excluding physical inability). Not that congruence itself becomes moot, but that certain types become more important than others?

It obviously varies from person to person. But I'm wondering if maybe there are transsexuals who can live with their flawed body and it doesn't bother them as much because they somehow don't have the same... I don't know the word to use. But maybe how they see their body, while it doesn't fit, isn't as much of a burden as it is for other transsexuals. I'm obviously of the type that is bothered greatly by my body. I wonder if it's simply part of our character or our upbringing that determines just how much our ill-fitted bodies actually affect us mentally.

I'll be honest and say that I feel that transsexuals are devastated by their flawed bodies and do have the great desire to fix them. But that could very well be because that's how I am personally. I only know how I deal with being a transsexual, so I can't put myself in a mindset where my body wouldn't bother me as much (although I try very hard to empathize and understand people in various situations... I don't like it when people judge me, so I don't want to be the kind of person that judges others). Kind of like how straight people can kind of understand gay people, but not really. They only know what it's like to be straight, so they can imagine what it's like to be gay, but they don't quite understand.

[RachelOKC]

I stick to my original post that it is never too late to transition and to have SRS. One member here had her SRS at a late age and the doctor who did her SRS also successfully did SRS on someone who was terminally ill.

I can not think of a better way to go than with being "whole" and congruent.

Which brings me to another point, which I preface as my personal opinion: to be "whole" and congruent as a woman, requires SRS. And as our beloved Kate always proclaims, "women don't have penises".

So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

All right, shoot your arrows now. :bow2:

I'll fire a few nerf arrows.

So to be clear, transwomen who absolutely *can't* have SRS aren't women? Or do they get an exception? Is this something to be documented on a piece of paper or on an arm tatoo? You probably have met a number of transwomen. Do you treat them as women when you meet them or do you ask about their genitals to make sure first? So if a transwoman who has very masculine traits that can't be hidden but has had SRS, would she be a woman? What about a very "passable" (I hate that concept, but I'm using the vernacular) transwoman who has NOT had SRS? What pronouns do you use if another transwoman hasn't had surgery yet? If you were speaking to a third party about an MTF friend you know hasn't had SRS, would you describe her as a man or a woman?

What about transmen? So if they don't have penises, they aren't men? If they do any kind of bottom surgery does that make them a man even though the form and function are often poor? What about people who've lost their penises through trauma? Are they no longer men?

Why does it matter to you (or anyone else) what makes another individual a woman or a man? Does their life have something to do with yours? Does it matter to you if it's a complete stranger or someone you know? Are people who have not have SRS lower in a hierarchy?

You are absolutely entitiled to your opinion, but I'm not sure why you're concerned with how and why others are defined as male or female!

[Badtranny]

well, a big test will be the next 10 days when I have to let go of any dressing and go camping with a bunch of bikers and rock musicians!.

Oh my. Whatever will you do with yourself? ;-)

[Badtranny]

"women don't have penises"

I would totally agree with you. ...if I hadn't been born with one myself.

[LeaP]

I'll fire a few nerf arrows. ...

Why does it matter to you (or anyone else) what makes another individual a woman or a man? Does their life have something to do with yours? Does it matter to you if it's a complete stranger or someone you know?

... I'm not sure why you're concerned with how and why others are defined as male or female!

I am. Not from the standpoint of hierarchy or fun with definitions, but because these endless round-robin discussions actually help me think through what I am and how I feel. The concept of congruence between body and mind is fundamental at some level in transsexuality. Hopefully no-one takes issue at that level of abstraction. For me - personally as it pertains to how I view myself, that is - that includes genitalia. I can see how age might change one's view, urgency, need, etc. of any particular point of physicality, however, and without changing one's sense of identity at all.

Oh, and thanks for keeping it to Nerf arrows!

[Bree-asaurus]

I'll fire a few nerf arrows.

So to be clear, transwomen who absolutely *can't* have SRS aren't women? Or do they get an exception? Is this something to be documented on a piece of paper or on an arm tatoo? You probably have met a number of transwomen. Do you treat them as women when you meet them or do you ask about their genitals to make sure first? So if a transwoman who has very masculine traits that can't be hidden but has had SRS, would she be a woman? What about a very "passable" (I hate that concept, but I'm using the vernacular) transwoman who has NOT had SRS? What pronouns do you use if another transwoman hasn't had surgery yet? If you were speaking to a third party about an MTF friend you know hasn't had SRS, would you describe her as a man or a woman?

What about transmen? So if they don't have penises, they aren't men? If they do any kind of bottom surgery does that make them a man even though the form and function are often poor? What about people who've lost their penises through trauma? Are they no longer men?

Why does it matter to you (or anyone else) what makes another individual a woman or a man? Does their life have something to do with yours? Does it matter to you if it's a complete stranger or someone you know? Are people who have not have SRS lower in a hierarchy?

You are absolutely entitiled to your opinion, but I'm not sure why you're concerned with how and why others are defined as male or female!

She said WANTING not HAVING!!!


So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

It's so amazing how people read one thing but think another!!! My boyfriend is FTM and he WANTS surgery... his options suck though. Him not having surgery doesn't make him any less of a man.

If you have a penis, and you love it and cherish it and never wish to part with it... then you are not transsexual... If you have a penis, and you wish you didn't and would like to get rid of it and have the proper genitalia, that is part of being a transsexual! THIS IS NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT ACTUALLY UNDERGOING SRS!!!


I would totally agree with you. ...if I hadn't been born with one myself.

Those aren't her words... she was quoting our very own Katesback.

---

Can we get all the transsexuals who agree to post something like 'the difference between want vs have' in their signatures or something?! It seems like all too often people think those two words are the same, despite having very different definitions... It seems that some people need to be slapped in the face with WANT WANT WANT NOT HAVE HAVE HAVE to get the point... and even then... *sigh*

If being transsexual is something you are born with, then how can it also be defined by something you do later on in life? It just doesn't make sense you all!!!!

I've never been so frustrated to be pushed to these levels of text formatting!!! READ WHAT IS BEING SAID!!!

[Teri Jean]

Lea, as a post op 63 yr young female the day you are old is the day they fit the sod over the coffin. BTW I am 1 year post op with a 48 yr old gf. You are not old.

[RachelOKC]

So if I as a transwoman don't "want" SRS then I'm not a woman? If I do "want" it, do I have to express it to other people? I dunno about you, but I generally avoid talk about my genitals with most people, even other transfolk. Do I have to tell people "I WANT A VAG!" in order to be accepted as a woman? Golly, I hope not!

Parse all you WANT ...but I'm still not sure why you give a tin shit about someone else's life. ;)

[kimdl93]

This need not be a debate. Unless one must deal in absolutes (like katesback) its possible to accepymt the idea that a TS person can transition to a lesser or greater extent and legitimately consider themselves female, regardless of what the law or anatomy would dictate. And some of us though self defined as TG come very close to the fuzzy boundary...dressing out of need to express outwardly what we feel within. The matter of degree does matter, but I still feel strong kinship and empathy for those Jared the TS end of the spectrum.

[Bree-asaurus]

So if I as a transwoman don't "want" SRS then I'm not a woman? If I do "want" it, do I have to express it to other people? I dunno about you, but I generally avoid talk about my genitals with most people, even other transfolk. Do I have to tell people "I WANT A VAG!" in order to be accepted as a woman? Golly, I hope not!

Parse all you WANT ...but I'm still not sure why you give a tin shit about someone else's life. ;)

Well, I could say the same thing right back at you. You can't partake in the argument and then say 'this is a stupid argument that I won't be a part of.' Well, you could... but then you'd be a hypocrite... hrmm... :P

I enjoy talking about this kind of stuff, for one reason or another. Depends on the thread.

I don't talk about my junk with other people on a day-to-day basis either. But guess what?!?!?! This forum and this thread involve talking about our junk!!! Sounds like a Starbucks customer asking 'what's the deal with all the coffee?'

If you don't want to talk about it, why are you talking about it? Make up your own definitions all you want... but most of us here go by the clinical definitions.

[RachelOKC]

(Beat dead horse - ON)

If you say you're a woman, then who am I to judge whether you are or aren't? Why does "want" for SRS matter? My opinion - it doesn't.

This is all academic to me personally because it has no impact on my life or my transition. I don't think my womanhood hinges on SRS but if someone else thinks so good for them. I just don't understand why they're so concerned. Feel free to go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush. ;)

(Beat dead horse - OFF)

And to return on course: When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not - but transition you may still do.

[Bree-asaurus]

I just don't understand why they're so concerned.

I don't care about you or what you do with your life the same way you don't care about me and what I do with mine... But this became a topic of SRS and transsexuals and peoples' opinions about those two things. That's what we're discussing... because it's a simple friggin discussion... not a analysis of YOUR life and what YOU do with it and who YOU are. It's people talking about opinions. If you don't want to talk about it, fine... you're taking things waaaay too personally like everyone here is trying to tell you who you are. There are plenty of people who talk about who I am (if I decide to take those kinds of discussions as personally as you are) as a transsexual... and I don't care.

If you don't want to partake in the sharing of opinions, then don't!

And maybe you totally ignored my post above where I actually kind of agreed with you and that I may not understand what I haven't personally experienced (if you want to beat a dead horse).

---

And for the record, being diagnosed as a transsexual, having that label, is what lets some of us get the mental, medical, government and social support we need to be ourselves and live our lives. If you want to call yourself a transsexual, but live as a man with a penis and be a girl on occasion and not need to take advantage of those things that some of us NEED, you go right ahead. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. But I needed HRT, gender change, surgery, future surgeries and more... so, yes, the definition of being transsexual is important to me, and that is also part of the reason I like to be a part of these kinds of discussions... because I can relate to those who need help.

[Kathryn Martin]

So saying you are something makes it so? No matter what your opinion is, fact is if you say you're the Queen does not make you so, neither does saying you're a woman make you one. Anatomically speaking women do have vaginas and men have penises. Being transsexual means that you are born with a body that is not congruent with your gender experience. Being transsexual by any acceptable description means that this experience of in-congruence creates urgency to become as closely approximated with your target gender as you can. That involves both hormones and surgery, if possible from a health and ability perspective.

It is the dilution of the transsexual condition with "women with penises" that has substantial and problematic societal and political consequences for transsexuals both in transsexual health care, legal decisions and assessments and the stance taken by government. Being transsexual with all of the attendant consequences of becoming congruent is not a lifestyle choice. You can be as feminine as you like and present as female as you like, you may even be a quintessential woman in appearance and behavior but if you believe that wanting to retain your penis and being a woman is possible then there is something fundamentally wrong.

There are transsexuals who are foreclosed from having SRS and taking hormones because of health conditions that prohibit it. In those circumstances other avenues can be found to find closest approximation, but the intention is to go as far as personal health circumstances permit. And it is this urgency of congruence that defines a transsexual.



(Beat dead horse - ON)

If you say you're a woman, then who am I to judge whether you are or aren't? Why does "want" for SRS matter? My opinion - it doesn't.

This is all academic to me personally because it has no impact on my life or my transition. I don't think my womanhood hinges on SRS but if someone else thinks so good for them. I just don't understand why they're so concerned. Feel free to go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush. ;)

(Beat dead horse - OFF)

And to return on course: When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not - but transition you may still do.

[Bree-asaurus]

So saying you are something makes it so? No matter what your opinion is, fact is if you say you're the Queen does not make you so, neither does saying you're a woman make you one. Anatomically speaking women do have vaginas and men have penises. Being transsexual means that you are born with a body that is not congruent with your gender experience. Being transsexual by any acceptable description means that this experience of in-congruence creates urgency to become as closely approximated with your target gender as you can. That involves both hormones and surgery, if possible from a health and ability perspective.

It is the dilution of the transsexual condition with "women with penises" that has substantial and problematic societal and political consequences for transsexuals both in transsexual health care, legal decisions and assessments and the stance taken by government. Being transsexual with all of the attendant consequences of becoming congruent is not a lifestyle choice. You can be as feminine as you like and present as female as you like, you may even be a quintessential woman in appearance and behavior but if you believe that wanting to retain your penis and being a woman is possible then there is something fundamentally wrong.

There are transsexuals who are foreclosed from having SRS and taking hormones because of health conditions that prohibit it. In those circumstances other avenues can be found to find closest approximation, but the intention is to go as far as personal health circumstances permit. And it is this urgency of congruence that defines a transsexual.

She can call herself a transsexual all she wants, and tell other people there is no definition of transsexual all she wants. She's not the one that NEEDs that definition to survive.

But nah... the quality of transsexual's lives (or even the ability to HAVE lives) is boring to Rachel. I hear another yawn coming on...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yes, because marginalizing the people who are learning who they are and need help living their life is boring. Good job with the empathy.

But again, your opinion of having not wanting people to share their opinions is of great relevance.

Rachel your hair trigger is showing through your nerf arrows....

if you want to be taken seriously, you need a better arguement than the equivalent of I know you are but what am I...

[LeaP]

Lea, as a post op 63 yr young female the day you are old is the day they fit the sod over the coffin. BTW I am 1 year post op with a 48 yr old gf. You are not old.

Thank you, Teri. Currently, I'm more of your mindset. But see below ...




If being transsexual is something you are born with, then how can it also be defined by something you do later on in life? It just doesn't make sense you all!!!!

Thank you for providing the key!

We get to definitions from a discussion of age because urgency around the resolution of the congruence issue is included in the classifications of transsexuals ("definitions"). So the suggestion that age could change urgency seems to call the criteria into question, hence transsexuality itself. The energy in the responses around this stem from the threat to people's identity as a result. After all, if urgency can change, ONE implication that might be made is that one's transsexuality might be mutable.

The key is the stability of fundamental identity over the span of a life - even through changes in thought, attitude, coping mechanisms, and even awareness. One IS transsexual from birth (or shortly thereafter, depending on whose theories you subscribe to), yet there may be no awareness until later in life. There are usually early indicators, even when the identity issue is deeply buried, but often a happy childhood and little or nothing that raises congruence urgency until years later.

Similarly, age does change one's priorities and urgency. I can virtually assure everyone in this thread, for example (including me), that they will lose their need to be right or have the last word on a given controversy. Yet no-one expects to lose their identity. Much as one can become used to a disability, one might grow into reconciling with their habitus, perhaps not liking it, but no longer desiring or needing to change it, either. This often accompanies normal aging, though not necessarily so. Shall we declare this person a transsexual at birth, all through years of terrible dysphoria, through a social transition, HRT, perhaps FFS, but then having the urgency around SRS abate at old age suddenly decide that we were wrong after all?

The reality is that needs and urgency can and do change in many older people, including the need to maintain life itself. It doesn't change who they are.

[Badtranny]

if you want to be taken seriously, you need a better argument than the equivalent of I know you are but what am I...

This is painful for me because Bree, Kait, and Kat are kind of misunderstanding Rach, but I totally understand why. I know Ms OKC personally and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that she is much more reasonable than she is coming off. In fact I totally agree with her point, but on the other hand I kind of agree with the others too. The funny thing is, I know Rachel can definitely understand the "urgency of congruence" and I also know she understands how important SRS is and can be.

Such is the nature of forums I suppose.

[Bree-asaurus]

This is painful for me because Bree, Kait, and Kat are kind of misunderstanding Rach, but I totally understand why. I know Ms OKC personally and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that she is much more reasonable than she is coming off. In fact I totally agree with her point, but on the other hand I kind of agree with the others too. The funny thing is, I know Rachel can definitely understand the "urgency of congruence" and I also know she understands how important SRS is and can be.

Such is the nature of forums I suppose.

Yup. That is the nature of the internet. I'm just responding to what I read. I don't take it personally.

[Sharon]

This thread has devolved into a stinking morass of imbecility. (How do you like that one?) More importantly, it has exposed some very childish arguing and re-arguing (ad infinitum..., or so it seems) and tempers are frayed. Why oh why do we feel a need to repeat an opinion, with ever increasing anger, when nothing new is being stated; is it a feeling that the last one to post wins? Wins what? I can tell you what is lost, but why bother?

Anyway, the original question -- does anyone besides me remember what it is? -- has been answered and the OP has several opinions to mull in her mind. Thus, and because I am growing weary of the nonsense, this thread is now....

.......................POOF!


I was going to go all out with the special effects on that final word, but I've wasted enough on this thread.