Legal Genders and Marriage Laws

[sierra_g]

Ok, most states define marriage as between a man and a woman.
If you transition fully and you get the correct gender recognized by the government (license, etc), are you still supposed to marry the same gender as before you transitioned, or are you supposed to marry the opposite gender, or can you legally get married?

In other words:

MTF before SRS can marry Female
MTF after SRS can marry _______

FTM before SRS can marry Male
FTM after SRS can marry _______

Fill in the blanks.

Also, if you are legally married before transition, and you legally change to a F or M, is that marriage dissolved by the state because MM and FF marriages cannot happen?

Thanks everyone!

[Lesley_Roberta]

All this has crossed my mind as well periodically.

If a person goes from one to the other in a legal fashion how does it affect existing marriages?

Well myself, I suppose it depends on what you think of the state's opinion on the matter to be honest.

If I became female (legally) and the state told me as a result my marriage was no longer 'valid' I'd likely tell the state to get bent. Because in the end, the only person's opinion I give adamn about is my wife. If she said she was still my wife, that would be all I'd care about.

If I were to become female, and was single to begin with, well I can't fathom the point of getting married to begin with. Well that is because my preferences wouldn't be changing, but a female marrying a female, and the couple are not 'homosexual' in mindset, well why bother getting married anyway?

[Aprilrain]

Once married always married until death or divorce. Pre transition that is.
Post transition can be tricky.

[Michelle.M]

I only wish it were that simple.

I am certainly not qualified to offer any legal opinion, but it seems to me that according to the letter of the law what your documents say is how it goes. If you have a legal document saying that you're a woman (regardless of how you arrived there) then you are entitled to the rights and privileges thereof. Also you are bound by gender restrictions in terms of marriage, which we all know vary from state to state.

Marriages that occurred pre-GRS remain valid; I am not familiar with any challenges in those cases.

HOWEVER, I do know of some challenges to legal post-GRS marriages regardless of the existence of legal documents. One of the most high visibility cases is here in Texas. Nikki Araguz was legally married to firefighter Thomas Araguz, who died in the line of duty. Following his death, his first wife (and the mother of his children) sued to deny Nikki her widow's benefits from Thomas' death, on the grounds that she was born male and that the marriage was invalid in the State of Texas.

You would think that the existence of proper legal documentation would have resolved the matter quickly, but that's not the case. As a result of the high profile attention her case has received there are some in the Texas legislature who are trying to reevaluate and revise laws regarding valid post-GRS marriages.

[Julia_in_Pa]

MTF before SRS can marry Female. You are Correct.

MTF after SRS can marry Male either genetic or legal FTM in states that do not yet have same sex marriage. Also can marry MTF prior to any surgery.

FTM before SRS can marry Male.

FTM after SRS can marry genetic female or FTM prior to any qualifying moves in order to be legally recognized as male in states that do not yet have same sex marriage.

If you were married prior to gender surgery being performed you are still married after said surgery in the eyes of the law in all fifty states and the District of Columbia.

There are your answers.


Julia

[sierra_g]

Thank you all so much! This cat's curiosity has been killed! (Not vice-versa)

[Bree-asaurus]

MTF before SRS can marry Female. You are Correct.

MTF after SRS can marry Male either genetic or legal FTM in states that do not yet have same sex marriage. Also can marry MTF prior to any surgery.

FTM before SRS can marry Male.

FTM after SRS can marry genetic female or FTM prior to any qualifying moves in order to be legally recognized as male in states that do not yet have same sex marriage.

If you were married prior to gender surgery being performed you are still married after said surgery in the eyes of the law in all fifty states and the District of Columbia.

There are your answers.


Julia

But how do they determine if you were the opposite gender before? Do they look at your birth certificate? Because some states will totally change your birth certificate while others will just amend it.

My boyfriend and I are concerned about this. We are opposite sexes (MTF and FTM and right now we could legally marry, but I don't want to be the husband and he doesn't want to be the wife, lol).

I believe my CA birth certificate can be totally changed to reflect that I am female. He was born out of the country, so has one of those federally assigned birth certificates, so I think he can have his birth certificate reflect he is male. But what if we both apply for the gender changes on our birth certificates and one of them comes back as amended, while the other is replaced? Then we can't get married unless it's in a state that supports gay marriage, right?

[kimdl93]

For the record, I'm fully in favor of any person's right to marry the person of their preference, regardless of gender. Does anyone know if any of the states where archaic laws persist permit civil unions between partners (regardless of gender)?

[juno]

Unfortunately, it depends on the state. Some only allow your birth gender for marriage, some use the legal gender, and other states honoring those marriages also varies. It is a HUGE MESS.

In North Carolina, same-sex marriage is valid if one person transitioned after marriage. You can only get married if your current genders are oposite. With the new F-ed up amendment, I think that the existing legal same-sex marriages will no longer be honored. All domestic unions of both same and opposite sex couples will also be voided.

We need to stop all of this nonsense.

[darla_g]

so this sounds like a loophole!

if a man is married to a woman and then he transitions you have a same sex marriage

i wonder how many states actually address transgender marriage with specific laws passed

[Debglam]

I am NOT giving any legal advice here, but I am a lawyer, albeit one who just had a couple of margaritas with dinner. :)

First, this is a state-by-state situation as marriage at least now falls under the individual state's jurisdiction. Bottom line is it depends on what the specific marriage laws state. I don't think that any of the state's have directly addressed the situation of someone legally married who changes gender and therefore becomes a partner in a "same sex marriage." To the best of my knowledge, no court has directly addressed this issue although the case that Michelle mentioned touched on it. On the one hand, you were "legal" when you were married and have some vested rights based on the recognition of that marriage. On the other hand, I think that it WOULD be possible for one of the backwards states to un-do a marriage because both partners are now "same sex" since the state defines marriage. Sadly there is no certainty until these ridiculous marriage laws are clarified once and for all.

[Rianna Humble]

To give a perspective from outside of the US of A, under UK Gender Recognition law, once someone obtains their Gender Recognition Certificate - which allows them to change their Birth Certificate, then they can only marry someone of the opposite gender (i.e. MtF can only marry a man, FtM can only marry a woman).

As for existing marriages, they must be dissolved before the GRC will be issued. If a couple want to stay "married", they have to enter into a Civil Partnership.

This might change in a few years as the current government is talking about introducing a second-class type of marriage (called "Civil Marriage") which by law will not be allowed to take place in any religious institution and which will not be recognised by many of the major religions in this country. This is more though, than just renaming Civil Partnership since those can take place on religious premises whereas the proposed second-class marriages cannot.

The only advantage I can see for a couple where one partner is TS will be that they will still be able to say that they are married if they convert their ordinary marriage into a "Civil Marriage" BICBW.

[EnglishRose]

But how do they determine if you were the opposite gender before? Do they look at your birth certificate? Because some states will totally change your birth certificate while others will just amend it.


Marriage certificate, probably.

[Chickhe]

Good question! Too bad the answers are so complex. That's one reason I'm in favor of any sex marriage for legal purposes. It would be so much easier to make all laws genderless. For the church...its a club with their own set of rules.

[luvSophia]

HOWEVER, I do know of some challenges to legal post-GRS marriages regardless of the existence of legal documents. One of the most high visibility cases is here in Texas. Nikki Araguz was legally married to firefighter Thomas Araguz, who died in the line of duty. Following his death, his first wife (and the mother of his children) sued to deny Nikki her widow's benefits from Thomas' death, on the grounds that she was born male and that the marriage was invalid in the State of Texas.
This is probably a bad example. Nikki was legally male when she got married and did not have SRS until after they were married.

[Frances]

In Canada, since same-sex marriage has been legalized, it does not matter anymore what is on the birth certificate. You could be post-op with an unchanged birth certificate and marry a woman or a man. All the legal nonsence like the Nikki Araguz story would never happen if the States legalized same-sex marriage.

[Aprilrain]

All the legal nonsence like the Nikki Araguz story would never happen if the States legalized same-sex marriage.

Too many religious nut jobs here for that to happen anytime soon. I think freedom of religion should include freedom from religion. It's happening in all other aspects of government why should marriage be any different?

[Frances]

I think freedom of religion should include freedom from religion.

This could become my new signature.

[Julia_in_Pa]

This is what will happen if the scourge of evangelical Christianity continues down the path they are traveling.

[LeaP]

Too many religious nut jobs here for that to happen anytime soon. I think freedom of religion should include freedom from religion. It's happening in all other aspects of government why should marriage be any different?

It shouldn't be any different. The marriage "debate" and issues are so OBVIOUSLY rooted in religion that it's just absurd the courts haven't put a stop to it yet.

[kellycan27]

But how do they determine if you were the opposite gender before? Do they look at your birth certificate? Because some states will totally change your birth certificate while others will just amend it.

My boyfriend and I are concerned about this. We are opposite sexes (MTF and FTM and right now we could legally marry, but I don't want to be the husband and he doesn't want to be the wife, lol).

I believe my CA birth certificate can be totally changed to reflect that I am female. He was born out of the country, so has one of those federally assigned birth certificates, so I think he can have his birth certificate reflect he is male. But what if we both apply for the gender changes on our birth certificates and one of them comes back as amended, while the other is replaced? Then we can't get married unless it's in a state that supports gay marriage, right?

NO... Since you were born a biological male and your b/f was born a biological female you meet the DOMA standard.... a marriage between one man and one woman. I think that where a lot of the confusion comes in is that while the state and the fed may allow you your illusion.. to them you will always remain the gender that you were born with. Before I married my husband I spoke to an ACLU lawyer and was told.. that if we had the proper documents we could marry in any state, but if the state didn't allow same sex marriage the marriage would not be considered valid if something should come into question. 'You might be able to pull it off ( the act of getting married), but it could come back and bite you in the butt. ( like the TS in TX that was mentioned earlier). In your case if something came up I would think that all you would have to do is provide proof that you were born biologically male and he was born biologically female.
Here's something else that some people don't know.. Some states will allow same sex marriage couples to file joint state tax returns, ( I believe it's 11 states that allow this). This is NOT the case with the FED... Same sex couples may NOT file joint federal tax returns.

[kellycan27]

so this sounds like a loophole!

if a man is married to a woman and then he transitions you have a same sex marriage

i wonder how many states actually address transgender marriage with specific laws passed


No.. that's not how it works.. it's not same sex, he's still a biological man as far as the state and fed are concerned.

[Bree-asaurus]

NO... Since you were born a biological male and your b/f was born a biological female you meet the DOMA standard.... a marriage between one man and one woman. I think that where a lot of the confusion comes in is that while the state and the fed may allow you your illusion.. to them you will always remain the gender that you were born with. Before I married my husband I spoke to an ACLU lawyer and was told.. that if we had the proper documents we could marry in any state, but if the state didn't allow same sex marriage the marriage would not be considered valid if something should come into question. 'You might be able to pull it off ( the act of getting married), but it could come back and bite you in the butt. ( like the TS in TX that was mentioned earlier). In your case if something came up I would think that all you would have to do is provide proof that you were born biologically male and he was born biologically female.
Here's something else that some people don't know.. Some states will allow same sex marriage couples to file joint state tax returns, ( I believe it's 11 states that allow this). This is NOT the case with the FED... Same sex couples may NOT file joint federal tax returns.

Hate these stupid rules so much...

Seriously, who the hell does it hurt? I am NOT going to be listed as Mr. Brianna K***** on my friggin marriage certificate...

[kellycan27]

Hate these stupid rules so much...

Seriously, who the hell does it hurt? I am NOT going to be listed as Mr. Brianna K***** on my friggin marriage certificate...

No sweety.. that's not exactly what i meant.. especially in your case. You can both change your docs, transition and call yourself whatever you wish and in the eyes of the gov't your marriage would be valid because they use the DOMA standard of one man and one woman. You meet the criteria from the "legal" standpoint according to state and fed. You are in an excellent position because if you absolutely had to prove it.. you could. Although it may be a point of contention for you, it actually works in your favor as a trans couple that wish to marry.

[Aprilrain]

This is what will happen if the scourge of evangelical Christianity continues down the path they are traveling.

why? its not like the politicians pay taxes!:lol:

[Frances]

No sweety.. that's not exactly what i meant.. especially in your case. You can both change your docs and call yourself whatever you wish and in the eyes of the gov't your marriage would be valid because they use the DOMA standard of one man and one woman. You meet the criteria from the "legal" standpoint according to state and fed. You are in an excellent position because if you absolutely had to prove it.. you could. Although it may be a point of contention for you, it actually works in your favor as a trans couple that wish to marry.

That may not be true in Texas, Tennessee, Michigan or other States that do not allow birth certificates to be changed. Again, none of this matters in Canada. The solution is not legalizing all the various trans possibilities, it's legalizing same-sex marriages federally.

[Bree-asaurus]

No sweety.. that's not exactly what i meant.. especially in your case. You can both change your docs, transition and call yourself whatever you wish and in the eyes of the gov't your marriage would be valid because they use the DOMA standard of one man and one woman. You meet the criteria from the "legal" standpoint according to state and fed. You are in an excellent position because if you absolutely had to prove it.. you could. Although it may be a point of contention for you, it actually works in your favor as a trans couple that wish to marry.

Oh I know... We're lucky in that aspect. I still hate the rules because they **** with others for no reason other than to segregate and judge.

[kellycan27]

That may not be true in Texas, Tennessee, Michigan or other States that do not allow birth certificates to be changed. Again, none of this matters in Canada. The solution is not legalizing all the various trans possibilities, it's legalizing same-sex marriages federally.

I agree.. repeal DORMA and there won't be any same sex marriage.. just marriage. I was specifically addressing Bree's question in regards to her and her b/f getting married.

[LeaP]

Repealing the DOMA doesn't solve the problem. It's just a preemptive strike against a constitutional challenge to interstate marriage recognition in the federal courts under the full faith and credit clause. It may not be sufficient anyway. The real problem, as people have already mentioned, is that religious doctrine and ethics are being written into law and allowed to stand. A successful first amendment challenge would moot the DOMA as well as eradicate discriminatory state-level marriage rules in one fell swoop.

[Debglam]

I think freedom of religion should include freedom from religion.

April, this is absolutely true, and what this new brand of conservative politicians just don't get! Having no "state religion" as the Founding Fathers wanted means not enacting laws that favor a particular religion over others or no religion at all. THAT is what they are doing when they try to create a legal definition of marriage based on the conservative Christian definition of marriage.

There are approximately 40 recognized religions in the world and almost 38,000 recognized denominations of Christianity. Does any reasonable person think that we should pick one and base our laws on that? No matter how vocal they are?

[Jorja]

April, this is absolutely true, and what this new brand of conservative politicians just don't get! Having no "state religion" as the Founding Fathers wanted means not enacting laws that favor a particular religion over others or no religion at all. THAT is what they are doing when they try to create a legal definition of marriage based on the conservative Christian definition of marriage.

There are approximately 40 recognized religions in the world and almost 38,000 recognized denominations of Christianity. Does any reasonable person think that we should pick one and base our laws on that? No matter how vocal they are?

Hey it was good enough for the Taliban and the people of Afghanistan it should be good enough for us. (can you say scarcasm)

[Julia_in_Pa]

Well said April, well said!LOL!!!


why? its not like the politicians pay taxes!:lol:

[Danni Bear]

kelly is correct in as far as the state of Texas and marriage. male and female. Bree you and your b/f fit the law perfectly the same as my husband and I do. he was born female and transitioned and I was born male and transitioned. we were married before transition and remarried after and both marriages were and are valid.

Danni