A rather serious question, and a little soapbox time for me

[kellycan27]

I have been a member here since February or 09', and I have met ( on line) some pretty good people and I have seen some pretty good (for the most part) advice doled out to it's members, by it's members, but a recent thread has started to make me wonder if the support here in some cases may cause more harm than good.
case in point: I recently saw a thread from an 18 year old who at this point is questioning his/her gender. Barley out of high school, living at home, no job, and asking questions..... The gist of the advice given was.. you're at a great age to transition! seek a gender therapist, start HRT and hair removal.. it's cheap, and you don't need a lot of money to start... which is sort of true, unless of course you have no job, no real money making skills and someone else pays for it and all other other little expenses that crop up, like eating, and living day to day. Most of the responders ( it seemed to me) were people who transitioned or are in the process of... at a much older age. Although the advice may sound logical as a starting point.. how realistic is it for a young person to actually be able to do it under the circumstances mentioned earlier? Is urging this young person to run headlong towards transition, by telling them how easy it might be because of their youth and low cost really being supportive or might they be being set up for disappointment when they discover that in reality it's not "that" easy?
I have visited other TS sites, and have talked with some young people who are in transition and I was really saddened to see the high number of these young people who are so tunnel visioned and obsessed with reaching their goal to the exclusion of being able to get work, go to school or even function in their everyday lives. Young people who should be out there enjoying their lives, getting an education, and being productive... living in limbo ( as so many of the older people say they had had to do for years) on gov't assistance because they cannot cope. How is one to finish transition with the pittance of a government check, or a minimum wage job? Support is truly a wonderful thing, but don't some of you think that it should be given with just a bit more common sense than we often see? Is the support that is sometimes given, not so much logical as much as it is the givers hope,desire, wish or ideal of "what" if or "wouldn't it be nice", or their desire to be supportive? I have to ask.... How can someone who they themselves have been struggling with transition for years say any part of it is easy and to just start? As I said.. I think support is a wonderful thing... to a point, but I personally think ( as someone who transitioned at a young age) support should be tempered "more" on the realities and less on the head patting it's gonna all be ok's. Nobody wants to rain on someone Else's parade, but in this life there are very very few rainbows, and not one unicorn. Putting a band-aid on a melanoma may make the patient feel better, but may in the long run may cause their demise. Your mileage may vary.

Kel

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So what would you suggest specifically? I agree if anyone says its easy (which i rarely see here) they are just flat out wrong...

transition is like a band-aid for melanoma?? is this like a monthly swoop in to attack someone?

Is your preference to attack folks that don't seem to have their stuff together according to your standards?
or helping the young people you meet by sharing your life story with them...

If a couple specific posts caused you to say this..address them...and like those of us that come here all the time to chat, SHARE your SPECIFIC experience...timing, doctors, money issues, school issues, overall approach...and do it over and over and over...so that everyone can benefit from it...i don't think anyone benefits from this type of approach...it reads like a potshot to me

as you say, YMMV

[Wildaboutheels]

Very nice point and you make some excellent points.

THe FACT of the matter is that very few of us can look back to when we were 18 [no matter how many years ago it was] and proclaim that we had it all together and KNEW what we were doing. Waiting at least another 3 or 4 years for anything in life at that age simply makes good sense. I have a sneaky suspicion, that many folks don't "notice" someone's age when they decide to post "advice".

[Julia_in_Pa]

If someone says their TS and their waiting around regardless of their circumstances especially when they are young there is little logic in doing something that is failing them over and over again.

What better time to seek therapy concerning intense gender conflict then while at home.
If I had the same advice and the same connections and environment as young adults have today your damn right I would have transitioned shortly there after.

The cocoon that four plus years of college would provide would give a young adult a very comfortable time frame to obtain therapy and if green lighted by the therapist then on to HRT and transition to full time living.
The effects of HRT at that age would be fantastic for physical changes not to mention the soothing and calming effect that HRT has upon the brain of TS people.
Every year a young TS person waits to transition is another year of living a lie and establishing more life as the wrong gender including another year of the masculinizing effects of testosterone.
I stand by my advice given and will do it again and again as the opportunity arises.





Very nice point and you make some excellent points.

THe FACT of the matter is that very few of us can look back to when we were 18 [no matter how many years ago it was] and proclaim that we had it all together and KNEW what we were doing. Waiting at least another 3 or 4 years for anything in life at that age simply makes good sense. I have a sneaky suspicion, that many folks don't "notice" someone's age when they decide to post "advice".



Be careful posting on something that is transsexual related when your a " red blooded American male " (as you have called yourself in a previous thread)

Waiting three or four years as you posted could cause many negative effects to occur for a young transsexual.
The biggest would be HRT's effects on the body followed closely by the negative effects of testosterone to have that much more time to destroy in a physiologic sense.

Do you have experience in transition?

I doubt you do so please refrain from a discussion dealing with such.


Julia

[docrobbysherry]

While I think u make some good points, Kelly, I'm NOT TS. So, whatever comments I make r NOT from experience! While I'm of the mind that young people have SO MANY ISSUES to deal with beside gender, I would hope they would get a life before making any radical changes. On the other hand, what if all they can only concentrate on r their gender issues? Wouldn't it make sense that they deal with THOSE ISSUES ASAP so they can then have a life?

Kind of like the, "chicken or egg first", question isn't it? I'm SURE others with some experience will add more incite to this thread!

One point u made is completely valid, tho, Kelly! This site should maybe come with a, "Be careful of breathing the Pink Fog", disclaimer! I can't begin to explain how far down the rabbit it has led ME! Lol!

[Kathryn Martin]

I have always found indiscriminate waiving of the support flag is dangerous. In this I support your post, I think it makes a lot of sense. I find that especially with young persons that they feel this will solve every problem when in fact it does not.

I am always for support. A young (21) friend of Elizabeth and I just got on hormones etc. we helped with setting up and paying for counseling and finding an endo and doctor to monitor the hormones. She has a good job and has all of her ducks in a row. That is, as you mention not always the case and can create huge problems embarking down that road. The problem with site like this is that you never get the full story. For this reason I find some of the "support" here ill considered and often problematic. This is completely different if you can be by their side as they start walking down the road and stumble, but not here where the actual support likely not possible.

Today someone from this site realized that I actually existed like I said I did on here. It surprised me that my existence as I project it here could be in doubt, and it made me think about this medium.

Thanks Kelly, this is an important post I think.

[Aprilrain]

I don't see a lot of head patting here in fact a lot of threads are rather depressing in the realities shared. Its true that most of us here are older and have skills and access to resources that most 18 year olds don't have however no one here knows another persons situation unless they tell us. I know i only have my experience to share. I can tell you that I have yet to meet a TS who has said "gee I wish i'd waited 5 more years!". Money is not the only issue here either, as someone who seriously contemplated suicide I simply knew I could not live another day, I had to transition or die trying. I didn't get out a sheet of paper and list the pros and cons. that does not mean I was unaware of or delusional about the risks involved, they simply didn't compare to the self loathing of being stuck in the wrong body anymore. One of the most productive things I did early on in transition cost me nothing. I found a local support group and attended, meeting lots of real live TSes and CDs and talking talking talking and getting feedback. Another real test of my resolve was to tell people what was going on with me. I'd kept this hidden for so long I was bursting and told people I really didn't need to tell but hey everyone and their grandma knows now, whatever! Therapy is important and can be expensive however at most major universities it can be had on a sliding scale and HRT really isn't that expensive at all. Surgeries are a bitch and that is of course what most of us want.

I have found that for the most part people do what they want in spite of good or bad advise.

[Bree-asaurus]

What's important is finding a balance. Usually we have a variety of members with comments coming from all over the place, so one extreme balances out another.

I do think that if you know you are transsexual and you are young, you DO have an advantage and need to get started ASAP. But that doesn't mean throwing education, support and work out the window.

I started younger than many people, but if I could have started even younger, I would have. And that's me sitting here in an apartment, jobless... hoping when I start interviewing again in a couple weeks I'll find a company and employees that give me a chance.

And I think I may be a good example here... because right out of college I was making six figures (in TX, not NY or CA... 150k is goooood money here) self employed. I've owned two houses, a multitude of high-priced vehicles and couldn't figure out what else to spend my money on. Now I'm broke... but I'm able to be myself. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Do what you need to do to live a stable life... money doesn't mean anything once you breach that poverty gap.


Waiting at least another 3 or 4 years for anything in life at that age simply makes good sense.

That is true in most cases. Many people just can't wait to grow up or do the next thing. HOWEVER, for some of us... it's life and death. I wasn't 18 when I began transition, but 3-4 years? I wouldn't have lasted 3-4 weeks.


I wasn't attacking anyone, merely "asking" if support should be tempered more on the reality of transitioning.

I'm a fan of the blunt approach... but I don't always allow myself to be as blunt as I'd like. Many times, I've found myself backing up the views expressed by some of the more 'extreme' members of the forum and people get on my case. But I think a big part of supporting someone is making sure they are aware of the harsh realities. Sugar coating and walking on eggshells helps nobody but to keep the person giving filtered advice from getting flamed by the more unicorn-and-rainbows members.


I have found that for the most part people do what they want in spite of good or bad advise.

Pretty much...

I know we have a few new members that come here asking for help, but never really listen. They post thread after thread asking the same friggin questions and getting the same friggen answers... but they never challenge themselves to change their thought process.

[ReineD]

If this young member is headed for college, whether paid for through student loans, grants or scholarships, parental help, part time jobs, or a combination of all of these, what better time is there to begin taking hormones and present as a girl for four years while getting stronger in the target gender and slowly changing her gender markers? Schools and professors do not discriminate against gender non-conformity. I gather that HRT is relatively low cost. Electrolysis is expensive, (is laser cheaper?), but no one knows the state of her beard growth. Some 18 year olds have very little. If she can pull this off and get into a career as a girl, she can work and establish herself in her career before considering SRS.

If college is not in her future and she is about to start job hunting then I agree, she needs a plan and a realistic outlook of her financial situation.

Another benefit to doing this early. She will never be in a situation of having established herself in a marriage with children as a man, only to have it fall apart down the road.

[morgan51]

Thanks Kelly for the thread I beleive talking frankly and honestly is the right approach Being there for someone is great but how many here ever interact with a new /young ts to the point they offer support on a personal basis? I've had a very hard time interacting with ts people on a personal level and they have not been youthfull. Many don't want or heed our sugestions , I do wish the best to anyone thinking about transitioning, God knows its hard enough without getting false hope. ReineD has some good points too. This forum and talking with others who have been thru this has been invaluable to me. Morgan

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thnx for the response Kelly...

I'd just rather you post a thread about the young people and not about the people that gave them what you consider bad advice..my mileage does vary i guess!

I say post to those young people directly, in the thread ..( i admit i never looked back to see if you did)

...that's all i'm saying...if I disagree I say it to the person..just like i did!! heh..disagreements are not the end of the world

It's patently obvious to me that when a person starts talking about gender issues and what to do about them at ANY age, telling them to go for it and it will be ok is just ridiculous
...transition is hard, people fail at it, there is loss and risk associated with it.

[ReneeT]

Kelly,

I do agree with your OP. i see time and again here people painting an overly optimisticoutlook on transition, especially for those early on who are very uncertain of things. Especially for young people such as the subject of the OP, psychologic counseling is absolutely critical. At age 18 this persons core identity is still developing, then you throw in gender confusion. What this person needs now is a competent, compassionate mental health professional and a peer support group, not hrt and hair removal.

Transition absolutely sucks, IMHO. The costs, personal, emotional, and financial, are incredibly high. I would like to see a bit more realism in the advice and support given. Sometimes it hurts to have someone tell you the truth- i've been there. But in the long run everyone benefits from solid, well-intentioned advice, not just fluff

[Aprilrain]

everyone benefits from solid, well-intentioned advice, not just fluff

I disagree. Most people do whatever the he'll it is they want to do in spite of advice however people do look at the experience of others and either identify with I or not. That is the best we can do here. It seems to me that Anything that even sounds like advice around here is almost always summarily dismissed.

[jillleanne]

I have always found indiscriminate waiving of the support flag is dangerous. In this I support your post, I think it makes a lot of sense. I find that especially with young persons that they feel this will solve every problem when in fact it does not.

I am always for support. A young (21) friend of Elizabeth and I just got on hormones etc. we helped with setting up and paying for counseling and finding an endo and doctor to monitor the hormones. She has a good job and has all of her ducks in a row. That is, as you mention not always the case and can create huge problems embarking down that road. The problem with site like this is that you never get the full story. For this reason I find some of the "support" here ill considered and often problematic. This is completely different if you can be by their side as they start walking down the road and stumble, but not here where the actual support likely not possible.

Today someone from this site realized that I actually existed like I said I did on here. It surprised me that my existence as I project it here could be in doubt, and it made me think about this medium.

Thanks Kelly, this is an important post I think.

So true. One cannot forget how important it is to keep it real, in that, there are procedures that have been positively established that need to be adhered to, such as, initially seeking gender therapy. It's all well and fine to stay positive in providing type written verbal support but remember you need to think in real terms, not fantasy. Transitioning is not inexpensive and cost is one one small aspet of it all. There are other serious considerations that must be recognzed before any surgery is even considered.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this is such a weird thread..

maybe i'm overfocused on MYSELF, and what i write..but i don't see much pollyanna around here 10% 20%??? people are different, there is a very good moderator that only censors certain things..so every comment gets through.

I agree with what april just said... There are people here who i won't respond to because they come looking for answers and support and instead ARGUE with people trying to just help them..my teenage daughter does this all the time...hmmmmm

there are not alot of transitioned folks around here, and what they usually say is don't transition unless you have too, prepare to lose everything in your life, and if you do transition, be careful and smart..and if you do it smart, its can be a wonderful thing despite the losses..we say it differently

there are always exceptions of course, but so what...i just don't see "go for it, its awesome" as a prevalent theme around here..

this is not rocket science...as transsexuals we "just know" other transsexuals..especially in person, but its pretty easy around here too. and if you do know alot of ts people, you know its always the same drill, every time..there are a couple different "arcs" and one of them is early transition, which is the best case scenario......and you also know that a successful and well thought out transition can be incredibly rewarding..

that's why i have a slightly negative reaction to it all...I just don't think its relevant to most of what goes on around here to carve out a group of pollyanna comments

...if someone makes a racist comment here, and then there was a thread about racists comments it makes it seem like an issue when there is really no racism in the forum

I think the thing the gets me the most about this is that transitioning early can be a hugely positive experience...how does transitioning at 18...probably looking and acting very female and not going through all the negative investing in maleness hurt a young 18 year old ....if you get a degree and come out of college as a female you avoid huge problems....you have a female history, a much more female socialization (my current biggest problem is how i "feel" when relating to other women..its natural to me but i am hugely self conscious)..

in the end, its just words..
it is YOUR responsibility, even at 18 to understand what's going on...the good and the bad..sorry but young transsexuals need to grow up faster than other kids...or else..

if they can't sort out helpful vs wasted comments, they better get on the stick...if they can't get a good sense of where people are coming from even on a message board, then they need to step back and work on other things first...and frankly for clearly troubled young people, that is by far the most common advice i see here.

[elizabethamy]

What I've gleaned from the advice here, which I have openly and continuously sought for six months and value more than I can say, is that all the paths are hard. Transition is terrifying and as difficult as it sounds; living with GID for the rest of your life is awful, too, and carries with it a high risk of suicide, depression and illness; the middle path is hard to stay on; etc. Which all sounds very bleak but I think people speak from their experience in a heartfelt, honest way, and so the advice itself and the people behind it are vastly superior to any summary of what "the forum" says overall. My time here has been a priceless education, regardless of the outcome of my personal journey, and I think anyone who's open to hearing what people really have to say can benefit immensely by being active here.

Finally, as Kurt Vonnegut's character memorably said: "Make me young! Make me young!"

elizabethamy

[Badtranny]

I agree with Kelly in the sense that I have seen some really bad advice here. Mostly from people who haven't even done what they're advising someone else. (people who have never gone out advising someone about their first time out) Don't even get me started on those that give transition advice when they are nowhere near transition themselves. Transition is such a bizarre experience that only somebody who hasn't done it would say they know what to expect.

In regard to the youngsters, (yep I said it) there are enough honest people here giving honest accounts of their own transitions that the good info is not only readily available, but generally stands in stark contrast to the bad stuff.

[Stephenie S]

You know, to me there is absolutely no question that college is the BEST environment within which to explore transition. There is NO time that will be easier other than at home, pre-puberty, and with the help of parents. And transition in a safe, protected, place does not need to take over one's life. If you keep up your grades, no one gives a rat's behind what you wear or how you present in college. Most schools will have well funded GLBT centers. Most schools will have strong anti-discrimination rules in effect and applied. And for most young MtoF transitioners, the effects of years of testosterone poisoning are at a minimum.

Putting off transition will only make it harder. Falling in love as a male, starting a family, and entering the corporate world, are all HUGE roadblocks to transition.

Transition young? Oh, for goodness sake, go for it! And if it turns out that you are not a TG woman and that perhaps crossdressing will suffice? What better place to find out? No trauma done to family, career, and children.

To me, this is a no brainer. I will continue to encourage transition young.

S

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaitlyn, I think Kelly and I agree with that transition early is the best. The issue is ill conceived advice in some cases from those who have no clue of what they speak.


this is such a weird thread..

maybe i'm overfocused on MYSELF, and what i write..but i don't see much pollyanna around here 10% 20%??? people are different, there is a very good moderator that only censors certain things..so every comment gets through.

I agree with what april just said... There are people here who i won't respond to because they come looking for answers and support and instead ARGUE with people trying to just help them..my teenage daughter does this all the time...hmmmmm

there are not alot of transitioned folks around here, and what they usually say is don't transition unless you have too, prepare to lose everything in your life, and if you do transition, be careful and smart..and if you do it smart, its can be a wonderful thing despite the losses..we say it differently

there are always exceptions of course, but so what...i just don't see "go for it, its awesome" as a prevalent theme around here..

this is not rocket science...as transsexuals we "just know" other transsexuals..especially in person, but its pretty easy around here too. and if you do know alot of ts people, you know its always the same drill, every time..there are a couple different "arcs" and one of them is early transition, which is the best case scenario......and you also know that a successful and well thought out transition can be incredibly rewarding..

that's why i have a slightly negative reaction to it all...I just don't think its relevant to most of what goes on around here to carve out a group of pollyanna comments

...if someone makes a racist comment here, and then there was a thread about racists comments it makes it seem like an issue when there is really no racism in the forum

I think the thing the gets me the most about this is that transitioning early can be a hugely positive experience...how does transitioning at 18...probably looking and acting very female and not going through all the negative investing in maleness hurt a young 18 year old ....if you get a degree and come out of college as a female you avoid huge problems....you have a female history, a much more female socialization (my current biggest problem is how i "feel" when relating to other women..its natural to me but i am hugely self conscious)..

in the end, its just words..
it is YOUR responsibility, even at 18 to understand what's going on...the good and the bad..sorry but young transsexuals need to grow up faster than other kids...or else..

if they can't sort out helpful vs wasted comments, they better get on the stick...if they can't get a good sense of where people are coming from even on a message board, then they need to step back and work on other things first...and frankly for clearly troubled young people, that is by far the most common advice i see here.


I agree Stephenie


You know, to me there is absolutely no question that college is the BEST environment within which to explore transition. There is NO time that will be easier other than at home, pre-puberty, and with the help of parents. And transition in a safe, protected, place does not need to take over one's life. If you keep up your grades, no one gives a rat's behind what you wear or how you present in college. Most schools will have well funded GLBT centers. Most schools will have strong anti-discrimination rules in effect and applied. And for most young MtoF transitioners, the effects of years of testosterone poisoning are at a minimum.

Putting off transition will only make it harder. Falling in love as a male, starting a family, and entering the corporate world, are all HUGE roadblocks to transition.

Transition young? Oh, for goodness sake, go for it! And if it turns out that you are not a TG woman and that perhaps crossdressing will suffice? What better place to find out? No trauma done to family, career, and children.

To me, this is a no brainer. I will continue to encourage transition young.

S

[Wildaboutheels]

Transitioning. A Life CHANGING experience? Only a person with a single digit IQ could or would argue against it.

But if we look at REALITY? I have been around longer than most here and been fortunate enough to meet many "young" adults over the years. Undoubtedly, there ARE exceptions to everything in this world. Yes, I have met ONE 18 year old, that IMO, had it together enough [at 18] to be able to make such a decision.

I am in no way trying to take away from how tortured [some of you] obviously were at that age.

I'm sure there are individuals here who wish they had transitioned long ago. Had they done that, they probably would not have the CHILDREN that they do now.

Fair tradeoff?

Or not?

[Rianna Humble]

Kelly,

I do agree with your OP. i see time and again here people painting an overly optimistic outlook on transition, especially for those early on who are very uncertain of things. Especially for young people such as the subject of the OP, psychologic counseling is absolutely critical. At age 18 this persons core identity is still developing, then you throw in gender confusion. What this person needs now is a competent, compassionate mental health professional and a peer support group, not hrt and hair removal.

Transition absolutely sucks, IMHO. The costs, personal, emotional, and financial, are incredibly high. I would like to see a bit more realism in the advice and support given.

I'm sorry but I cannot disagree more with your characterisation of the majority of the advice given here. In nearly every thread on the TS forum you will find many of us who state fairly baldly "do not transition unless you need to".

If I have understood correctly one of the threads to which Kelly referred contained a response from me which could be misquoted in the terms that Kelly uses. However, anyone who takes a second look will see that I qualified my response by stating that early transition offers better chances of success if the person seeking advice truly is a girl born in a male body

Those who are in schooling and/or college have many more options for lower cost counselling than those who are out in the workplace so it is not unrealistic to suggest to a person in that age bracket that they seek therapy or counselling.

Unlike the "just tell them to wait 3 or 4 years" mindset, I do not believe in recommending any MtF to delay what is necessary or to deliberately subject themselves to the physiological and psychological changes wrought by testosterone if they are not cisgendered male.

[ReineD]

Kaitlyn and Kel, I do not see any attacks here. Personal opinions, disagreements, or even questioning the advice given in a different thread, or questioning the points brought forth in Kel's OP, are not attacks. Attacks invalidate what people say by questioning their character, their personal beliefs, how they choose to lead their lives, etc. I have not seen anyone do this here.

That said, I see your general point, Kel. You're saying that it is wrong to assume that someone as young as 18 has done all the necessary research or has known unquestioningly since age 4 that she was born in the wrong body. And if perchance this person is instead a CDer lost in fantasy land, you feel there is a collective responsibility to point out all facets of any decision to transition.

The problem with this young person's question, however, was that unlike other new people who come to this section and say how confused they are, she did not divulge anything about herself (in the thread you refer to), she did not ask about the pros and cons of transition, but instead she asked what was to be lost by becoming a woman. Most people (including myself) simply answered her question: the longer a transwoman lives her life as a male, the more she has to lose. This is true, although some people were more forceful with their opinions than others.

Looking back, it might have been best to ask her to tell more about herself (like you did), before answering the question since no one knows her financial situation. You're correct, she does need to know the social, psychological, emotional, and financial costs involved with all of this. But, this was not her question.

Hopefully she will come back and ask more pointed questions.

If you look at her post history, you'll see that she is looking for a gender therapist, she recently told her father about herself, and he supports her. So I'm sure that she will meander through her path just like everyone else.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

My use of the word attack was wrong..

I would have thought that the OP's point of view would have been most productive in a direct conversation as opposed to a general discussion that makes it a big deal... i'll stfu now....now where is that CD vs TS thread???

[Jonianne]

....now where is that CD vs TS thread???

Check the locked threads, I think Reine closed it. :p ........ :)

[DeeDee1974]

In this day and age of technology, I think I've been guilty if thinking that today's young people gave it easier than my generation. It's really just a generalization where I think "today's generation has all the information they need out here on the Internet", but my generation (I'll be 40 in a couple years) had a much harder time finding all the information about being tg

I like to think I would be bolder if I were young today and transitioned much earlier, but in reality it's probably not true. I don't think I've ever told a young member to transition, but using my rationalization above I could see why I might think someone who's 18 today might have it easier. The more I think about it that's probably not true.

Really the best advice for the young people is probably to find a good therapist that specializes in transgendered issues. Then build your own path from there. Because if I was 18 today it wouldn't have been much easier to come out to my father. My mom was always accepting, but almost 3 years later my dad still struggles. So it would be wrong of me to tell someone else to do something I couldn't even do myself.

[Nicole Erin]

I think the advice best given to anyone, especially kids, is - "You need to live your life as you see fit."

An 18 year old probably does not have it together. Neither do I. An 18 year old probably makes the same as what i do in my shitty job. I did not let that stop me from living as a woman.

What if the 18 year old goes to college, racks up debt, and STILL has to work for peanuts? Happened to me. Twice.
I tried the whole "I am gonna go to college, get a good job, save money for transition, and do all the surgery stuff".
When I discovered the hard way that a "career" is just not happening for me, I decided, "I need to live my life instead of waiting for "Better days". If part of being allowed to live as a woman means having so much money, then go ahead and put me away.

Suppose they go to school, get a good job, and have all this cash to throw at things like FFS and SRS, OK great what if they lose their career as a result of being TS?

And what is a "successful" transition? Does that mean having so many surgeries? Does that mean "passing"? Does it mean living as a woman? And who sets the standard?

What "might" work is going to college, hoping to land a good career, having all this money and a nice car and drinking lemonade while sitting on the front yard with the Jones'es. THEN deciding to live as a woman and losing everything. And of course there comes another "My life left me" thread on some site called crossdressers.com

What WILL work is someone deciding what is important in life and deciding to live for that.

Besides, the whole speel about "go to college and land this great career" has been drilled into our heads since the day we step foot in kindergarten. It doesn't always happen so easy.

I would never tell anyone "you should wait a few more years to live your life".

Kids, today if the first day of the rest of your life. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. Good things come to those who wait, but if you wait around, it might be too late.

[ReineD]

my only intention was to remind people that when advice is given we take the time to think about the consequences that the advice might have on the person before we tell them to "just do it" or what have you.

I can't agree with you more. Transition is not to be taken lightly.

But without going through every post in the last six months, my general impression is that the members who post here regularly do not sugar coat, although I agree it is difficult to balance telling it as it is with being encouraging. Sometimes the slant of the original question will determine whether the bulk of the answers are encouraging, vs. being cautionary. People tend to answer questions the way they are asked rather than try reading between the lines.

All in all, I think you all form an excellent community and if I would not hesitate to send a young TS with a million questions here (in addition to suggesting she find a gender therapist, as most of the members recommend on a regular basis). :hugs:

[Badtranny]

, but my generation (I'll be 40 in a couple years).

Yeah um, I'm 44 and started my transition at 42 so "your" generation isn't lost just yet.

In my 20's I thought it was already too late to even consider and I lamented that I didn't have more courage when I was a younger. The truth is, I didn't have the courage in my 20's either.

The hardest part about transition is facing the fact that you're not "normal". You have to admit to the world what you are, but you have to admit it to yourself first. It takes balls to be a tranny, and all the excuses in the world ain't gonna make you feel better when you look back on your life at 50, or 60 , or 70 and curse yourself for not having the courage to follow your heart.

[Bree-asaurus]

in addition to suggesting she find a gender therapist, as most of the members recommend on a regular basis

Reine has it spot on here. I can't remember a thread from a questioning newbie where there weren't NUMEROUS recommendations to find a qualified therapist and/or doctor if HRT is being discussed. It's also mentioned a lot not to transition unless you NEED to. I know I, as well as several other members throw this into pretty much every "Should I transition?" thread.


The hardest part about transition is facing the fact that you're not "normal". You have to admit to the world what you are, but you have to admit it to yourself first.

I can't agree more. I think I can put 90% of my difficulties transitioning solely on myself.


It takes balls to be a tranny

Here here :cheers:

[Rianna Humble]

my generation (I'll be 40 in a couple years) had a much harder time finding all the information about being tg

Shows I'm getting old. I can't remember what it was like being in my 40's :eek:


I too am an advocate for transitioning while young,( I don't even know where the subject of whether young people should or shouldn't begin transition came into play as it certainly wasn't part of the OP to begin with) but there have been a few instances where I have suggested ( not advised) that maybe the better approach would be to slow it down a bit with transitioning (even beginning transition) until they are in a somewhat better position at having a better chance at success. Get an education, get job etc.

I can see the sense in this provided that the dysphoria can be kept at manageable levels.

[Sally24]

An interesting discussion except for the obvious........



Do you have experience in transition?
I doubt you do so please refrain from a discussion dealing with such.
Julia

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yeah um, I'm 44 and started my transition at 42 so "your" generation isn't lost just yet.

In my 20's I thought it was already too late to even consider and I lamented that I didn't have more courage when I was a younger. The truth is, I didn't have the courage in my 20's either.

The hardest part about transition is facing the fact that you're not "normal". You have to admit to the world what you are, but you have to admit it to yourself first. It takes balls to be a tranny, and all the excuses in the world ain't gonna make you feel better when you look back on your life at 50, or 60 , or 70 and curse yourself for not having the courage to follow your heart.

yep...

its said many times..dont transition until you have too... unfortunately if you take that advice, you have a really good chance of finding yourself regretting time that will feel you let go by without doing the right thing for yourself..

its a very difficult situation with no easy answer.

i think also melissa your thought about admitting you are "not normal" is pretty spot on for me...the life i built for myself could not have been more normal..

[ReineD]

its said many times..dont transition until you have too... unfortunately if you take that advice, you have a really good chance of finding yourself regretting time that will feel you let go by without doing the right thing for yourself..

This is a very general comment, but do you think that with all the information we have today, plus the more relaxed social attitude about gender non-conformance among young people (compared to general peer attitudes 20 or 40 years ago) it is easier for an 18 year old to realize who she is rather than be in denial over it for 20 years or more like many of the older members here?

Granted there would still be a need for sessions with a gender therapist, but surely this young person would not be able to get into such a state of denial over her condition as to convince herself that she's a guy and the CDing was all fluff, and so believe she could stop dressing entirely if she met the right girl who wants to marry a man?

I guess what I'm saying is, I think it is easier for young people today to just know they are TS compared to even just 20 years ago. What do you all think?

[ReneeT]

I'm sorry but I cannot disagree more with your characterisation of the majority of the advice given here. In nearly every thread on the TS forum you will find many of us who state fairly baldly "do not transition unless you need to".

If I have understood correctly one of the threads to which Kelly referred contained a response from me which could be misquoted in the terms that Kelly uses. However, anyone who takes a second look will see that I qualified my response by stating that early transition offers better chances of success if the person seeking advice truly is a girl born in a male body

Those who are in schooling and/or college have many more options for lower cost counselling than those who are out in the workplace so it is not unrealistic to suggest to a person in that age bracket that they seek therapy or counselling.

Unlike the "just tell them to wait 3 or 4 years" mindset, I do not believe in recommending any MtF to delay what is necessary or to deliberately subject themselves to the physiological and psychological changes wrought by testosterone if they are not cisgendered male.

Rianna, please re-read my post. I did not say or even imply "the majority of advice". I said "time and again". One doesnt need to read too many threads here to validate that.

What i am really saying is that there is a often a tendency to have a "just go for it" attitude without enough emphasis on a cautious appoach to truly consider all the ramifications and develop a thoughtful, effective strategy for transition.

I am wholly, 100% behind anyone who needs to. Of course i am. Just do it right so the life that follows is all it can be.


I too am an advocate for transitioning while young,( I don't even know where the subject of whether young people should or shouldn't begin transition came into play as it certainly wasn't part of the OP to begin with) but there have been a few instances where I have suggested ( not advised) that maybe the better approach would be to slow it down a bit with transitioning (even beginning transition) until they are in a somewhat better position at having a better chance at success. Get an education, get job etc. What would be the point other than maybe some short lived instant gratification to run full speed towards the goal, only to be tripped up half way without the ability to get back up and continue? How many older people here are stuck part way because through no real fault of their own.. don't have the resources to continue and how many are living satisfied lives stuck in limbo?

OMG, Kelly, we are soooooo on the same page! Is it better to transition at 18 and spnd the next 10 yrs living on the street, engaging in the sex industry to afford your next meal, and never havong the financial means to live your life the way you would choose, or is it better to delay full transition while you get a firm foothold in life and acquire the tools, skills, and resources to ultimately make your life fulfilling. That is a personal question, but i knowmy answer. How many of you have met and spent any time with girls who transitioned early and live marginalized lives on the street, injecting silicone and getting their "mones" from sketchy sources? I have,and its really sad.

[DeeDee1974]

Yeah um, I'm 44 and started my transition at 42 so "your" generation isn't lost just yet.



I started my transition at 35. My point was that people my age didn't have the same resources that an 18 year old has today and that is why many of us didn't transition until later.

[Wildaboutheels]

So how many of you who participate here would transition at 18 IF you could go back in time?

Course, all the little rug rats or teenagers or adults you have helped create would not be with us.

Would they?

NO, I have never transtioned. NO, I have no desire to. Neither FACT has anything to do with the above 2 questions.

[Julia_in_Pa]

What does offspring have to do with transition?

I have no children. I never wanted any and because of being Intersexed my particular condition caused me to be sterile so it all worked out.
To answer your question; Yes I would have transitioned at eighteen.

Julia



So how many of you who participate here would transition at 18 IF you could go back in time?

Course, all the little rug rats or teenagers or adults you have helped create would not be with us.

Would they?

NO, I have never transtioned. NO, I have no desire to. Neither FACT has anything to do with the above 2 questions.

[Badtranny]

So how many of you who participate here would transition at 18 IF you could go back in time?
Course, all the little rug rats or teenagers or adults you have helped create would not be with us..

I would absolutely have transitioned at 18. I didn't have that kind of clarity however. I was so terrified because I was attracted to men that I made the most of my opportunities with the ladies. I knew I was different but I just ignored it like a subscription renewal bill.

Oh, and I never wanted kids either. I knew very young that I would never want to be a father and I told everybody who knew my name just that. It was my way of rebelling against my body, I felt trapped and I was not having kids, no way. Turns out I was just lucky as hell because even though I never WANTED them, I wasn't always safe in regard to preventing them. Just another of many blessings.

[Rianna Humble]

So how many of you who participate here would transition at 18 IF you could go back in time?

If we're going to time travel, do I really have to wait that late? If I could go back in time with the knowledge that I now have about my condition, I would want to start way before 18.


Course, all the little rug rats or teenagers or adults you have helped create would not be with us.

Would they?

Never created any littl'uns - never could understand how I as a woman could father children. Now, if we're fantasizing, let me go back in time, transition in my early teens and receive a full ovaries & womb transplant please so that I can fulfil one of my early dreams of giving birth to my own children.

[Aprilrain]

So how many of you who participate here would transition at 18 IF you could go back in time?

Course, all the little rug rats or teenagers or adults you have helped create would not be with us.

Would they?

NO, I have never transtioned. NO, I have no desire to. Neither FACT has anything to do with the above 2 questions.

Theses questions are designed to make the answerer sound callous if she has kids and says yes she would go back and transition at an earlier age. I have yet to meet a transsexual who wishes he or she would have waited longer to transition

[ReineD]

Theses questions are designed to make the answerer sound callous if she has kids and says yes she would go back and transition at an earlier age. I have yet to meet a transsexual who wishes he or she would have waited longer to transition

I agree with this. It's awfully difficult to un-wish the birth of children and especially heart-breaking if such a dad experiences GID. This is why the focus should be on as much education as possible, to help TSs realize at a much earlier age who they are, so they don't get into marriages with women who want to be married to men.

[ReineD]

Kel, you know that with a subject like this, there are all kinds of tangents.

And I do think this tangent falls in with your topic. If a young person comes in here who is not TS and who seeks reading only opinions that fall in line with what she wants to hear one of the potential losses might be unborn children. The other side of this is having had kids with a wife who is not prepared to go along with transition.

Hopefully people who question their genders will read all the posts in this thread and get some insight on several levels.

[ReineD]

How can someone who they themselves have been struggling with transition for years say any part of it is easy and to just start? A

This was in your OP and I agree. One of the most difficult struggles is how do handle the kids (and wife) when the decision to transition is made years after the marriage. Mentioning the particular struggles is tangential, but it is related.

[Kelsy]

[QUOTE=Kaitlyn Michele;2869044]

... people fail at it[QUOTE] The scariest quote on this thread

Thanks Kelly...
In my view advice and support can be two different things.

[TxKimberly]

I suppose I can see both sides of that one.

No sane individual can argue against the fact that earlier is better when it comes to transitioning but I can also appreciate Kelly's point that there are other things in life to be considered as well. For most of us, transitioning without an education, job, or career would be impossible. For those who are lucky enough to have parents with the resources, and willingness to use them for this purpose, then thank your lucky stars, hug mom and dad, and get on with it.




. . . Do you have experience in transition?

I doubt you do so please refrain from a discussion dealing with such.

Julia

Wow - such overwhelming arrogance. Once you become a moderator here, feel free to tell us who may or may not post on what topics.

[LeaP]

I suppose I can see both sides of that one.

No sane individual can argue against the fact that earlier is better when it comes to transitioning but I can also appreciate Kelly's point that there are other things in life to be considered as well. For most of us, transitioning without an education, job, or career would be impossible. For those who are lucky enough to have parents with the resources, and willingness to use them for this purpose, then thank your lucky stars, hug mom and dad, and get on with it.

[quote from Julia]

Wow - such overwhelming arrogance. Once you become a moderator here, feel free to tell us who may or may not post on what topics.

Here's where Julia's comment intersects with reality: The point at which a transsexual truly becomes aware of their plight is the start of a horrendous struggle - physical, emotional, psychological. Add to that all the external complications - money, schooling, relationships, etc., and you have quite a potential disaster in the making. Everyone here understands that.

But you may not know the extent of the drive to get resolution. It becomes all-consuming. It's not that nothing else should matter, but it feels that nothing does. The kids on the street we are talking about are usually those who have known who they are from an early age, have no support for it, and are out of their homes as soon as they can get out. Alternatively, they're kicked out.

All the talk about timing and priorities is right in some sense ... but by no means in every sense. Suicide is not better than the street, and if an early, problematic transition is the alternative, at least they have a chance to recover some day.

For those who are a little more stable, financially and psychologically, there's a better chance of finding some short-term compromises, assuming some support can be found. A kid in a major university will usually have access to counseling services and can hook up with trans support groups ... perhaps even get access to prescribed hormones without resorting to their parents' insurance, if that's a problem. So maybe starting some transition activity without pursuing it headlong is possible.

Few would be willing to put it off for long, though, and if the idea is that one should put transition off until one is set in life (not to suggest you said that personally), my response is that it isn't very realistic. If you had felt the conflict between wanting to transition and wanting to die, Julia's comment would make more sense, because the drive to be will not be denied.

[Sara Jessica]

So how many of you who participate here would transition at 18 IF you could go back in time?

I have already answered this a number of times over the years.

Yes, if I knew then what I know now, I would have transitioned in a heartbeat.

Do I wish that was my path? Absolutely not. That would mean wishing away my wonderful wife and children. Such is the reason I find myself on my middle path.

[ameliabee]

So, getting back to the original post...

Honestly, I couldn't have transitioned at age 18. I was still breaking away from my mother the control freak while at college => I was doing well to open my own bank account. I was in college, but there were no jobs to be had and I was lucky to pull in as much scholarship money as I earned. Even if I did come out of denial at the time, I probably would have gone crazy because I couldn't do anything about it. I'm reasonably convinced that I transitioned as soon as I was able to do so given my circumstances. The ~$3k I've blown on transition simply wasn't available to me even a year ago, let alone two or three. Kel is dead on in bringing this up. Even if that's not a lot of money, when you're young and you have no money and no cash flow, it's often an insurmountable sum.

I know a gal who transitioned in high school, but she's living on the government and has virtually zero prospects for living. She's over a year in and has yet to get on HRT because my area sucks for people who don't have money. She's still legally <male_name>. I've tried to help her out as far as getting it together, but it's a really bad situation.

Regrettably, one almost has to have one's ducks in a row, to some extent, before transition is even possible. Transition at 18, or hell, 13 when I brought such up to my parents the first time, would have been nicer, but it wasn't going to happen without a ton of external support that simply wasn't there.


Here's where Julia's comment intersects with reality: The point at which a transsexual truly becomes aware of their plight is the start of a horrendous struggle - physical, emotional, psychological. Add to that all the external complications - money, schooling, relationships, etc., and you have quite a potential disaster in the making. Everyone here understands that.

But you may not know the extent of the drive to get resolution. It becomes all-consuming. It's not that nothing else should matter, but it feels that nothing does. The kids on the street we are talking about are usually those who have known who they are from an early age, have no support for it, and are out of their homes as soon as they can get out. Alternatively, they're kicked out.

All the talk about timing and priorities is right in some sense ... but by no means in every sense. Suicide is not better than the street, and if an early, problematic transition is the alternative, at least they have a chance to recover some day.

For those who are a little more stable, financially and psychologically, there's a better chance of finding some short-term compromises, assuming some support can be found. A kid in a major university will usually have access to counseling services and can hook up with trans support groups ... perhaps even get access to prescribed hormones without resorting to their parents' insurance, if that's a problem. So maybe starting some transition activity without pursuing it headlong is possible.

Few would be willing to put it off for long, though, and if the idea is that one should put transition off until one is set in life (not to suggest you said that personally), my response is that it isn't very realistic. If you had felt the conflict between wanting to transition and wanting to die, Julia's comment make a lot of sense, because the drive to be will not be denied.

Agreed.

About being at a major university... Speaking only about the one I attend (~50k students), the counseling services are complete crap for trans folk, but there is a trans support group on campus. I had to DIY for a few months though, and the student health care center couldn't help much in that regard. A nurse there was awesome and got me an appointment with the local HRT doc, but I still had to blow ~$200 with the blood tests and doctor's appointment, even with using my folks' insurance. It would have been closer to ~$700 without the insurance. It's cheaper to DIY then to go legit without insurance.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You don't have to wish your children away if you transtion...

If you want kids, and why wouldn't you?, you can biologically be a dad, but you will know you are a mom, and you will feel like a mom...even if your kids don't think of it that way..its ok.

i'm not saying just go for it and it's always gonna be fine..its hard work..i'm saying that if you really want to transition you can... it tends to bother me when people say they didn't transition because of their children...alot of people were very down on me for transitioning, and i proved them all totally wrong....and now i've taught my kids that being yourself and standing up for yourself and who you are can be hugely positive and rewarding thing..

if you are younger, i can assure you that its not neccessary to get caught up in the semantics of gender and the idea of being a dad... you are a parent, to a child....maybe its just me being pragmatic, but i have no problem at all thinking of myself as their father..gender be darned..

[Pink Person]

My advice to young people is usually to tell them not to do what I did. I can't help believing that there is a better way. I get very optimistic about helping them avoid the pitfalls that trapped me. On the subject of when to transition, I think the best time to do it is in the womb. If you wait until later things get problematic.

I think Kelly raises some valid concerns. I'm going to assume I'm qualified to offer an opinion on not transitioning since I haven't done it. In my experience with TS people, it sometimes seems to me that there is a significant amount of peer pressure to transition at any cost. I have occasionally been disturbed by this point of view. Nevertheless, I am frequently sympathetic to the strong need to transition that many people feel. Overall, my mixed feelings on this subject tend to weigh on the side of caution. Consequently, in good conscience, I could only advise anyone, young or old, to be cautious; and also not to listen to me.

[Rianna Humble]

In my experience with TS people, it sometimes seems to me that there is a significant amount of peer pressure to transition at any cost.

May I assume that this experience comes from outside of this support forum?

Here you will find that the vast majority of advice regarding transition is something like:

Don't transition unless you really need to
If you think you really need to transition prepare yourself to lose everything
Even if you don't lose everything you will probably become an outcast in the eyes of many people around you
If the need is that great, there are benefits to transition, but not otherwise

[Badtranny]

In my experience with TS people, it sometimes seems to me that there is a significant amount of peer pressure to transition at any cost.

Well, I'm calling BS on that remark. The TS community here is pretty small, and I mean people that are actually transitioning or have transitioned and I can't think of a single instance when one of my sisters has advised anyone to transition at any cost.

I personally have been very frank with my experience and I doubt anyone would consider me a candidate for the welcome wagon. I generally believe we should be dismissive and difficult with questioning transitioners because I think if you can't handle grief and hard questions from faceless people on the internet, there is no way you have the fortitude to deal with people in the professional world face to face.

I do accept people as a transitioner when they've stopped talking and started doing, however I do not encourage them to do so.

[ColleenA]

I love this exchange. I think introducing the question of children was completely off topic, but I've added my reply at the end nonetheless.


I'm sure there are individuals here who wish they had transitioned long ago. Had they done that, they probably would not have the CHILDREN that they do now. Fair tradeoff? Or not?


These questions are designed to make the answerer sound callous if she has kids and says yes she would go back and transition at an earlier age.

I loved your insight into the slanted nature of the question, Aprilrain.



What do offspring have to do with transition?

For someone who has no children, it is moot, of course, but I think you'll agree, Julia, that once someone has "rug rats or teenagers or adults you have helped create," it is responsible to consider their children when they are about to remake their life. Why Wild raises a question that has compounded the emotional struggles of countless numbers so offhandedly, though, is beyond me.



... do you think that with all the information we have today, plus the more relaxed social attitude about gender non-conformance among young people (compared to general peer attitudes 20 or 40 years ago) it is easier for an 18 year old to realize who she is rather than be in denial over it for 20 years or more like many of the older members here?

Absolutely, Reine. I suspect anyone in Gen X or older for years saw stories of women transitioning in their 40s or later, because they had never dared confront their inner reality as young adults, but instead took on societally acceptable male roles, such as husband and father. And so often, they would get into hyper-macho activities, such as joining the military or becoming firemen. There is nothing wrong with women pursuing those careers, but when someone is doing it to convince themselves and/or others how "manly" they are, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.
So, I applaud any woman or girl out there now who takes the opportunity to say, "Screw you, society. I am going to be all that I can be" (to borrow a phrase from the Army).

Now, to share a quick story: When a friend of mine was going through a divorce after 25 years of marriage, she expressed some regret over the marriage because she had passed up career opportunities she might have otherwise taken. I said, "But if you hadn't married Roger, you wouldn't have the two sons you love so much." She responded with something that I initially thought was callous, but as I thought about it, I came to see her view. She said, "Yes, I love them, but that doesn't matter. Any kids I might have had would have been great kids."

So, yes, Wild. I think for many, the chance to have gotten their life on a proper track at a young age would have been a fair tradeoff. I have three wonderful sons I love very much. But who's to say how much better or worse my life would have been without them in some alternate reality?



Yes, I have met ONE 18 year old, that IMO, had it together enough (at 18) to be able to make such a decision.

All I can say to this, Wild, is I don't think you should be a gender therapist.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

In my experience, I have not seen peer pressure to transition..

In fact, quite the opposite..a couple of people have accused my therapist of cheerleading transition, but that's not true...she facilitates it if you desire it..

i even recall an intervention where 2 people came by my house and regaled me with horror stories, telling my life was too good to not transition..looking back, now my dysphoria is gone it probably was!! LOL

I also agree that as Rianna and Melissa rightly point out that you don't see peer pressure around here...but as above you DO SEE facilitation for those that want it..and that seem appropriate to me.

Your point of view PP is valid of course, and I believe your experience has been different which is interesting...when you say peer pressure , what do you mean by peer pressure

As well as what i call facilitation, I have also experienced people begrudging transition because they are not transitioning...there is jealousy and envy and hurt feelings and they put peer pressure on themselves...describing your positive experience with transition is not peer pressure...i've mentioned this a couple times, our therapy group is broken up because of this...the non transitioners asked for a different group..they couldnt stand seeing us every couple of weeks...that says alot..

transition is about eliminating gender dysphoria...then making the best of what's left of your life...if you are young, you can make it so you never experience gender dysphoria, and you have lots more time to do well with your life...

[Pink Person]

Golly, yes I do have experience with TS people outside of this forum, a rather long period of experience with them. I don't feel the need to justify my experiences outside of the forum, so I won't.

If caution is a dirty word to you then you should throw it to the wind. I'll try not to be disturbed if you do.

[LeaP]

In my view, there are only hard realities expressed here by those in and past transition. The ONLY comments I can point to that remotely point to transition are the few that point out that transition stops the dysphoria. That comment has been made to me perhaps half a dozen times, usually in response to an expression of pain. It wasn't meant, or taken as encouragement, but to get me to break the circular thinking and hyper-anxiety, to see that a solution exists. No-one said this to me until they had known me for a while and, I believe, until they had seen certain behavior and thinking patterns that sufficiently assured them that I was trans. There's a right time to gently say this to someone. I can think of one instance in particular that just stopped me cold.

When I was in the worst of the throes of discovery crisis, the advice was invariably to stop thinking and go do something. Just about everyone in this thread seems to have said that to me at one time or another. Therapy assistance was encouraged. Reading and meditation were encouraged, here and by my therapist. There was support for anti-depressants and separating out co-morbid issues in order to clarify gender issues. All in the express hope that the gender issues were less intense and could be managed short of transition. I have had repeated assurances of support no matter what my decision or direction, in the earliest responses to me and as recently as yesterday.

Looking back over what I've been through in the last year here, as well as what's gone down in my life, I can see now how easy it is to see what Kaitlyn calls "arcs" - patterns that repeat with just about every transsexual, at least the late onset ones. Nudge and guide them through the discovery crisis and they will figure out for themselves what they are and what they need to do.

The path to transition is self-limiting. As I consider transition, its really obvious to me how ludicrous the idea is that someone can be led down a garden path. Transition is a cure for dysphoria, but it is deeply frightening also. The closer you get, the more intimidating it becomes. It eventually starts looking like an insurmountable obstacle on a path that has no return route. If you're not transsexual when you reach this point, you are going to figure it out in a hurry, and no-one is going to talk you in to challenging the obstacle.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

PP

My comments were not a challenge, but a question...for folks here it's good to know because lots of folks are trying to decide on a monumental life changing decision...

All things considered, the idea of peer pressure is dangerous and it causes vulnerable people to make big mistakes..i can imagine some folks end up being highly influenced by others in both good and bad ways..

[Julia_in_Pa]

My views are born of experience and yours Kimberly?




Wow - such overwhelming arrogance. Once you become a moderator here, feel free to tell us who may or may not post on what topics.

[LeaP]

But again ... Where is the peer pressure? Not here. Not in your group - what you described (envy) is not peer pressure. Where are these vulnerable people and what is the real impact? Not transition, obviously ... the regret stats are phenomenally low and even in your group, the envious ones are the NON-transitioners.

Somehow behind this suspicion of peer pressure there is a variation of the thinking that gender identity is a choice. Does anyone really think its possible to talk or pressure someone into transitioning, alternatively that it's a serious risk? Short of transition that people are being damaged? By what? Therapy and embarrassment? People question, wonder, explore ... But how far do most ever get and how many are making damaging mistakes? I just don't see it.

(edit) Kathryn mentioned some of the problems attendant to incomplete perspective and the limitations of online support. I agree with that. Advice can also conflict as this is a discussion board as much as a support site. There are pretty opinionated factions around certain topics. I still don't see who is being materially hurt, though. The level of discourse is high and challenges here are stiff. Even if I agreed theoretically to the proposition of vulnerable people being harmed, this just isn't a very hospitable support venue for them because of its nature. Those who can't engage simply can't function here.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The vulnerable people are desperate and/or young people..

The big mistakes are to either tell everybody you are transitioning before you really understand what you are doing...and then realizing you are not ready, or don't really want transition
or rushing headlong into transition without thinking of how to do it in the best way...

this is why knowing other transsexuals and having good support around you is very helpful..especially people that have been successful in transition,

this is especially true for young people that have not experienced the ups and downs of being responsible for your own health and well being in the real world

[LeaP]

The vulnerable people are desperate and/or young people..

The big mistakes are to either tell everybody you are transitioning before you really understand what you are doing...and then realizing you are not ready, or don't really want transition
or rushing headlong into transition without thinking of how to do it in the best way...


This seems to agree with the proposition of the OP which cited, after all, a thread on this board that Kel saw as enthusiastically encouraging early transition. She actually used words similar to yours: "urging this young person to run headlong towards transition".

A lot of responses made a distinction between inappropriately encouraging someone who may not be ready or able, versus the pointing out the actual benefits of transitioning at a younger age. Yours was actually the first response ... and you called the OP out as a potshot, basically because it picked out something exceptional and out of context only to characterize it as thematic.

So my question is whether you agree with the OP or not. (I.e., that the forum is encouraging the vulnerable when it should not.)

I also remember a recent thread where a member was going down the path of informing friends and family early in the process ... and almost every response was screaming STOP!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's clearly not encouraging vulnerable people in this forum...there a few posts/posters that seem to have a "go for it" attitude but often times they are not serious and anyone that takes the time engage this forum in a meaningful way would see that...and the thread you referenced is a good example..

It's clearly something i have rarely experienced in my experience...i think i've met about 70-80 trannsexuals and multiples of that transgendered people...

...that doesn't make it any less of a problem for a person if it happens...and the way it happens is for the person to put blinders on and only listen to the people they want to hear...

I'm against murder, and i'm against urging people to commit murder, that doesn't mean i'm going to make a federal case out of it, and if i see someone saying something so awful, and i was inclined to do something about it, i'd deal with that situationally and not write a speech about how i'm against murder and people should not condone it...that was my "potshot" comment...which i've already admitted was wrong to say..i was just feeling pissy at that moment..(extreme example of course)

[kellycan27]

It's clearly not encouraging vulnerable people in this forum...there a few posts/posters that seem to have a "go for it" attitude but often times they are not serious and anyone that takes the time engage this forum in a meaningful way would see that...and the thread you referenced is a good example..

It's clearly something i have rarely experienced in my experience...i think i've met about 70-80 trannsexuals and multiples of that transgendered people...

...that doesn't make it any less of a problem for a person if it happens...and the way it happens is for the person to put blinders on and only listen to the people they want to hear...

I'm against murder, and i'm against urging people to commit murder, that doesn't mean i'm going to make a federal case out of it, and if i see someone saying something so awful, and i was inclined to do something about it, i'd deal with that situationally and not write a speech about how i'm against murder and people should not condone it...that was my "potshot" comment...which i've already admitted was wrong to say..i was just feeling pissy at that moment..(extreme example of course)

Really? So what you are saying is that some young person who joins this forum should know that some of these "go for it" types are not really serious? Is that some kind of tranny sixth sense or something? Sounds like if we are all like you and had your insights into the world and transitioning we wouldn't need support sites such as this. Why give out the "be prepared to lose everything" and " Don't tell" and Don't transition until you are ready" spiels ? According to you it should be a given.. anyone who is serious should already have the where with all to know this coming in. It's already been stated by just about every transsexual who ever posted on these boards. There's no need for these little disclaimers, because anyone who engages in a meaningful way... should have seen them by now. Why repeat it? Why waste your time? Why warn the new-bees?
I personally know, and have spoken to many young people who are so desperate that they will draw at straws, and do just about anything to deal with GD or their desire to move forward, at any cost. They may in fact listening to what they may want to hear, or wearing blinders. Guess there's no hope for them or they should be discounted, because.. well because they are clueless. If they listen to bad advice, it's on them. they should have known! They should only listen to the good advice, and if they don't...it's on them. Looks like there's no room for those who are struggling, and the instance of bad advice isn't enough to make a caution relevant....
I have to say that I can't help being amused that you would accuse me of making a federal case, because of a simple reminder to be cautious with the advice we hand out. It was really nothing more than that. I don't really see it as much different than the little disclaimers that I mentioned above. You caution people about the dangers one might encounter, yet my cautioning people is needless and has no merit.
Kaitlyn....... If anyone is making a federal case out of this... I don't think you are looking at the right person. You are the one who is making a federal case out of this.. it was pretty clear from your very first post.

I am laughing at myself right now.. I went back and deleted most of my posts in this thread because after i thought about it for a while I said to myself.. it was a very simple and pretty innocuous post , I wasn't singling out or admonishing any one person for what they said "in" a particular thread ( although the thread in question was what made me think about this thread) so why get into a pissing contest over it? Just let it stand... But you just keep drawing me back in. :heehee:

Kel

[LisaMallon]

Not sure where this is all going, there seems to be some heat here as well as a lot of light.

I think everyone agrees with Kelly (et al) that transition has to be dealt with in a considered, cautious way at any age.
With a good plan that has a realistic timeline, that involves all the other associated issues. Education, work, family, etc, etc.
This should be a significant part of the therapists role of course, but support groups (real and virtual) can help tremendously by imparting practical experience.

I think we also all agree that the younger you do it the better. Not just for physical reasons, but it is far better to start your new life at 20 than (say) 50. At that age you can create a whole new identity, start a career, find new friends, etc, etc. But that doesn't mean there are not significant (though different) challenges at that age.

For example, if someone young want to transition, the role of the supporters is to help them work through the practical issues as well as the gender ones.
Help them work out a plan for themselves. Remind them of all the other important factors that can get forgotten in their (understandable) single mindedness.
Such as how to keep their education on track.

Perhaps (for example) even in a (nice big sisterly way) to help them work out that it might be better to take (say) 4 years to transition, instead of (say) 3, because that will enable them to do X, Y and Z as well during the process.
"Where do you want to be after transition? Do you just want to be a female, or do you want to a female with your education completed, your new identity all worked out, etc, etc so you can start your new life on a good footing". That sort of thing. Maybe even a little bit of tough love at times.

They may not listen (straight away) but all we can do is to try and help in the best way we can.
And if they make mistakes (as I will certainly do in my transition, probably many of them) then still be there to help them work their way out of them.

Is everyone pretty much in agreement with this?

[Rianna Humble]

Golly, yes I do have experience with TS people outside of this forum, a rather long period of experience with them. I don't feel the need to justify my experiences outside of the forum, so I won't.

I never asked you to justify your experience, but it would have been much fairer had you have pointed out that your generalisation did not cover the TS advice offered on this forum.



If caution is a dirty word to you then you should throw it to the wind. I'll try not to be disturbed if you do.

Initially, I was going to ignore this insult, but why should I? You come into a forum for transsexuals where caution is the watchword, you throw out generalisations about how transsexuals behave without making it clear that your accusations bear no relation to the words of caution offered in this forum then you compound the insult by accusing us of wanting to throw caution to the wind.

You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Your belligerent attitude towards those you have falsely accused undermines any value your other words might have had.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nice try
Look kelly if you can't understand what i said, which you clearly don't, then that's on you...

If you don't have the guts to directly engage posts on their merits, that's on you.

making general comments with no back up is easy...making assumptions by adding meaning to others posts is easy...

The hard part is directly engaging people in a consistent, meaningful and intellectually honest way..which is not your style

..so go for it...you do your thing, i'll do mine..i have no problem with that..

[Bree-asaurus]

Nice try
Look kelly if you can't understand what i said, which you clearly don't, then that's on you...

If you don't have the guts to directly engage posts on their merits, that's on you.

making general comments with no back up is easy...making assumptions by adding meaning to others posts is easy...

The hard part is directly engaging people in a consistent, meaningful and intellectually honest way..which is not your style

..so go for it...you do your thing, i'll do mine..i have no problem with that..

Yeah... I'm kind of lost why you two are arguing anyway...

[LisaMallon]

Yeh, I think you two are violently agreeing actually. Since you both seem to be basically saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

[ReineD]

I agree (that Kel and Kaitlyn are not disagreeing on major points).

Is there any chance of carrying on your agreement/disagreement via PM? No one is disobeying the rules or anything, I don't see outright attacks or rude comments that warrant moderation or closing this thread. But honestly, once a conversation becomes extended within a thread it really is best carried on via PM. It makes the rest of us feel as if we are intruding in a private disagreement. :p

I'll leave it up to you both.

[kellycan27]

Nice try
Look kelly if you can't understand what i said, which you clearly don't, then that's on you...

If you don't have the guts to directly engage posts on their merits, that's on you.

making general comments with no back up is easy...making assumptions by adding meaning to others posts is easy...

The hard part is directly engaging people in a consistent, meaningful and intellectually honest way..which is not your style

..so go for it...you do your thing, i'll do mine..i have no problem with that..

You're just making a mountain out of a mole hill. Look back through my posts and then say that I don't engage people in a consistent, meaningful and intellectual ways. I don't flip flop, and I stand up for what I believe in, no matter what. Anyone can try and discredit someone else by making accusations.. The best defense being a great offense. Speaking of making general comments.. HA! my style? I have been directing my comments on what you have said in this thread... not going back and trying to cast aspersions ... with, as you accuse me of doing .. NO BACK UP. So get off your high horse, you're not going to baffle me with bullshit, nor ( and I believe I can say this without fear of contradiction) anyone else who here who has witnessed my postings. some people may disagree with me, and some people may not like me for my views, but I believe that you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would say that they felt that I have ever been anything but sincere. Bring the proof Kaitlyn, don't just make accusations... bring it. You obviously do care about my doing my own thing, else why would you try and discredit me in such a transparent fashion? Go ahead and keep attacking me .. it doesn't bother me, and just makes you look petty.

[ReineD]

On that note, it's time to close this thread. Everyone can draw their own conclusions.