Where do you draw the line? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Bree-asaurus

06-08-2012, 09:01 PM

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE people, let's keep this civil... the whole premise of this thread is sure to cause controversy if it's taken too personally...

Out of boredom, I was about to post a gimmick thread of "what color panties are YOU wearing?" when I remembered a conversation with a non-trans non-cd member of our local support group. We are open to any LGBT, but the people who show up are usually transsexual or there to support transsexuals.

We also had someone visit our local group, Nikki Araguz, who has been in the news recently. I'm sure you can google her name and find out why she's been in the news for the past two years. She identifies as intersexted AND transsexual and was expelled from an intersexted group because she also identified as transsexual (she is the widow of a firefighter, who's previous wife brought to light that she was transsexual in an effort to get the dead husband's money). They only want people who identify solely as intersexed and want nothing to do with transsexuals... which prompted my questions...

ANYWAY! the cis-woman member of our support group (may have been a founder, not sure) and I were talking about our acceptance of cross dressers in our group and if the term transgender should include cross dressers. However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

I wanted to see if we could start a civil conversation about this... and I am posting this in the public transsexual forum so cross dressers can take part in this.

Mods, if I am crossing any lines here... please let me know. I would like to have an honest discussion here...

Marleena

06-08-2012, 09:28 PM

LeaP

06-08-2012, 09:33 PM

Recognizing that some crossdressers are unaware of their own gender issues, just as some transsexuals identity as crossdressers prior to figuring out THEIR issues, even so ...

No, it makes no sense to me. I think gender identity is THE point and if there is no cross-gender identification at all, there is NO point (at least other than political).

Bree-asaurus

06-08-2012, 09:35 PM

The old joke comes to mind how long from Cd to TS (2 years). Many CD's do end up discovering they are actually TS.

This is a perfect example of why I want to keep it civil. This is EXACTLY where I came from. I joined this forum when I was thinking and HOPING I was a CD. In addition to internal studies, meeting CDers and TSs on here quickly helped me realize where I really fit.

max

06-08-2012, 09:49 PM

However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity.

This isn't always true. There are crossdressers who don't particularly identify as male or female, and all shades of in-between. Just because someone doesn't believe themselves transsexual doesn't mean there aren't gender identity issues.

Bree-asaurus

06-08-2012, 09:54 PM

This isn't always true. There are crossdressers who don't particularly identify as male or female, and all shades of in-between. Just because someone doesn't believe themselves transsexual doesn't mean there aren't gender identity issues.

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

max

06-08-2012, 09:59 PM

Bree-asaurus

06-08-2012, 10:01 PM

Erm where do you draw the "crossdresser" line then?
Just at say 100 % male / 0 % female?
95/5?
80/20?
50/50?

100%/0%... there are tons of cross dressers who are totally happy living as the men they grew up to be, but like to cross dress for reasons OTHER THAN gender identity. If you're in-between male/female I'm not talking about you.

Traci Elizabeth

06-08-2012, 10:31 PM

arbon

06-08-2012, 10:43 PM

Traci - Bree asked if they should be included under the transgender umbrella, not if they are transsexual

Dawn cd

06-08-2012, 11:03 PM

As my moniker states, I am a crossdresser who regards himself as primariy male. My presentation, however, is androgynous, and I have been drawn to female clothing since I was very young. I am happy in this betweeny state. So are you saying I am not transgender...even somewhat?

AllieSF

06-08-2012, 11:13 PM

I think that first, you Bree need to define what are your definitions of each terminology we will end up using in this thread. I believe that the term "transgender" includes all of us from CD's wearing panties to post op transitioned TS's. A crossdresser in the UK is sometimes more commonly called a transvestite going back to the original meaning/translation of the word. From my experience here and in South America, it is more of a negative term referring to those who do all this and transition partially for sexual gratification and as a way to earn money. So, which one do we use? I think that here in the USA TG is considered an umbrella term that includes CD's and recognizes people fall all over the place in what they feel, do and think that they are. So, base definitions need to be the starting point for this discussion, or you will get answers all over the place that actually may be very similar. Oh yes, and then the shit starts hitting the fan and your moment of pondering from a funny to serious question for a thread starts to disintegrate into a name calling discussion, rants and raves! That is fun sometimes too.

Rianna Humble

06-08-2012, 11:23 PM

since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

I feel that it is unfortunate that you appear to have based your question on such narrow definitions of who or what a cross-dresser is and what transgender means.

Firstly, I believe that the World Professional Association for Transgender Health would not agree with your contention that no cross-dressers suffer from gender identification issues. As I understand it, this is why they make allowances in the latest Standards of Care for those who suffer from gender dysphoria without being transsexual.

Secondly there are cross-dressers who do not self-identify as one gender or the other. Whilst we are free to use terms such as bi-gender, or dual-gender to describe them, the fact is that their self-identification crosses the traditional notions of gender so from an identity perspective they are trans gender individuals.

Thirdly there is the whole question of noun or adjective. The word "transgender" can be both. When used as an adjective it describes anything that crosses (trans) the gender norms. I accept that many fetish cross-dressers do not agree with the adjective being used to describe their behaviour but some do.

If you wish to draw a line, then you will first need to establish some kind of objective method of assessment for where an individual is relative to that line. I am not convinced that such an objective measure currently exists.

Many people, myself included, believe that you are born transsexual. Yet for many years I behaved as if I did not identify with the gender I have always known myself to be. Was I transgendered whilst I was in denial and trying to portray myself as a man both to myself and to others?

Did I "become" trangendered at a certain point in my adult life even though as a child I used to cry myself to sleep wishing that I could wake up as the girl I knew I was meant to be?

What of the cross-dresser who feels compelled to dress despite their best intentions? Can we truly say that they "simply like women's clothing for one reason or another"?

elizabethamy

06-08-2012, 11:29 PM

For the vast majority of cross dressers (90%? more?), this is a compulsion, not a hobby. If a guy wanted to take up a new pastime, opportunities abound. Softball is nice, tennis very satisfying, golf offers fresh air, cars are fun, and falconry can make you just feel medievally cool. Crossdressing, however, makes everyone around you nuts if they know about it, and so usually you go to great lengths to keep it closeted, which makes it an often unsatisfying practice.
It's just not a hobby that most people would choose.

Which is my point -- that men who crossdress and are still sure they want to remain men are nonetheless at least somewhat transgendered, or they wouldn't feel the compulsion to dress and risk the ridicule, humiliation, and other fallout that is likely to come. Therefore, for me I don't see a line. Each transgendered person (leaving out those few who really are just plain doing this for fun) sits somewhere on a continuum between the two "official" genders. So many of us struggle with your question -- what are each of our "percentages" male and female? And if we could figure that out, then what? Having gone from 0% to some number that seems to get higher and higher on your scale, Bree, I just become more and more convinced that while each of us might find a comfort zone or stable place on the 0-100% scale, there is nonetheless no "line." 2 cents worth.

elizabethamy

WifeofWrenchette

06-08-2012, 11:41 PM

ColleenA

06-09-2012, 12:10 AM

Hmm, while I was composing my reply, AllieSF, Rianna and elizabethamy came along and made many similar points. Even so, here’s my take on it.

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender.

As I see it, Bree, you are asking to nail down one specific definition for the word transgender and then use it to sort who is on which side of the line it represents.

One problem is that this is a pretty amorphous line. As others have mentioned already, people need time to work through and come to terms with who they truly are - as you have stated about your own journey. (And as repressive as society can still be for people struggling with this, it was even more repressive before you were born, which is why many here were or are still dealing with such questions well into their 40s, 50s and beyond.)

Another problem is that there is no one uniform definition that all agree to. Transgender has been, generally speaking, far more broadly applied than transsexual has. Even so, look up definitions of the word on dictionary.com, wikipedia, and urban dictionary, to name a few, and you will see at least some range of definitions. Let's go further and poll small-minded, bigoted people - we will find that their definition of transgender would include terms like freaks and perverts, no matter if the person is TS or CD, gay or straight. Granted, you brought up the topic on this forum, where there should be more agreement, but still ...

Finally (then I'll get off my high horse), you make some presumptuous statements about me and other CDs, such as "They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male ..." and "there are tons of cross dressers who are totally happy living as the men they grew up to be ... "

Just because I have reconciled myself to the fact that I am not a woman does not mean I am totally happy living as a man. I have few male friends; I don't interact with many men much beyond the normal bounds of work (where, btw, I have often found myself in fields with higher proportions of women). While I can hold my own to some extent in conversations about football, I have no interest in bonding with other men over typical interests such as cars or other sports.

Meanwhile, I wish I could have womanly interactions with women. I have many female friends, but I am ever aware that I am excluded from participating in discussions on a wide range of topics. I can know a woman for years, yet there remain taboo topics that she can discuss instantly with a woman she has just met. In some very real ways, I feel pain from that rejection deeply.

- Do I wish I had been born female? Definitely. But that is just as much a waste of time as wishing I could go back in time and stop Hitler from coming to power.
- If a genie granted me the wish to become a woman, would I take it? I would seriously have to think things through, and there is a good chance I would say yes.
- But as things are now, am I woman? No.
- And could I transition? It would be reckless of me to force an attempt.
- So, am I transgender? Hmm, to me, there is no clear-cut answer.

JulieK1980

06-09-2012, 12:24 AM

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

A necessary technicality here: A crossdresser is a person that wears the clothes of the opposite physiological gender. The definition does not take into account feelings, or gender dysphoria. It is simply a description of a person that performs an activity.

An actor that dresses in female clothes for a role in a movie is a crossdresser. A male who uses panties for sexual frills is a crossdresser, a TS that was born male and transitions to female is a crossdresser, a drag queen that performs in the opposite gender is a crossdresser, etc. etc.

The problem is not whether to exclude a group, the real problem is defining that group. "Crossdresser" is such a broad term, that it is difficult to draw any lines at all because the term is poorly defined. A person that identifies as a "crossdresser" could self identify as any of the groups I mentioned above, or any other variance. Where DO you draw the line? Because drawing a line will inevitably exclude people that the group is designed for. Ultimately our labels are simply not adequate.

ReineD

06-09-2012, 12:54 AM

... were talking about our acceptance of cross dressers in our group and if the term transgender should include cross dressers. However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

The people who do not belong under the transgender umbrella, in my opinion, are people who solidly identify with their birth sex, i.e, cismen, ciswomen, and transvectic fetishists for whom the reason to dress is for sexual fetish only and they have not one iota of cross-gender identity. (We can leave for a different discussion whether or not fully transitioned TSs should be considered transanything. I don't believe they fall under the transgender umbrella, but others may argue the point based on chromosomes).

Back to crossdressers: the majority of the Cders that I know do identify to a degree (even if it is a small degree) with femininity or they have some feminine characteristics and preferences, even if they do not believe themselves to be fully female. They do have some discordance with what is designated as male or masculine in our culture, even if they do not have the language to express this or the ability to understand a state of gender that is non-binary.

In other words, cismen do not as a rule wish to fully present as women without sexual motives unless they feel a degree of satisfaction from doing so. Further, I believe the term "crossdresser" to be a catch-all for fetish CDs and identity CDs. I do not believe that identity CDs are transsexuals and I think a better term for them is "dualgender" or "bigender".

So yes, the majority of CDers as we know them here and according to the motives they post, do belong under the transgender umbrella.

Edit

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

Have you noticed in the media, the tendency in the last few years to refer to transitioning children as "transgender", when they should say these kids are transsexual? What about the identity cross-dressers who do not identify with the fetish crossdressers, and who also call themselves "transgender". Also the people who don't know what to call themselves so they prefer to stick to the ambiguous term, "transgender", even if they are TS and are not ready to see this. And where to the Androgynes fit in? The genderqueer? The DQs & DKs? The trouble with this term when people attempt to apply it to themselves and their particular circumstances without any additional words to describe their intent, is that it just doesn't explain much.

The term "transgender" is best left to describe all people for whom gender identity is not fully congruent with birth sex. And once someone has established they do fall under the transgender umbrealla, it is up to them to describe themselves specifically. And I also agree, the term "crossdresser" is in sore need of a makeover. We know a lot more about the various motives and needs now that are behind the act of "crossdressing", compared to when the term was first coined ... when was it, at the beginning of last century? The term only describes what a person does and it says absolutely nothing about any underlying gender identity.

KellyJameson

06-09-2012, 03:35 AM

When one group pretends to be women it affects the group that are women trying to be recognized as such. This is my primary problem with crossdressers who identify as male, it is not their responsibility or fault but it is true none the less.

Is it possible to be TS and not have crossdressed at some point?

Can a man still be thought of as cisgendered but still crossdress ?

To wish as a male to emulate the female out of adoration by transforming ones appearance is elevating the female over the male and so is a rejection however slight of ones own gender by identifying with the female, why do they not adore the male instead of the female, because they already are male and want to be something else but that something else is still them.

Is the adoration born out of their heterosexual desire for women? Is adoration and sexual desire the same thing? Is crossdressing only a erotic exercise ?

If the heterosexual drive is the reason to crossdress than this does not seem to fall under the TG umbrella but there seems to be much more than just sex driving it for most male identified crossdressers and to me their words sound like they identify as female but within a male frame work.

I think a person is born TS but never the less must discover the words to articulate this consciously and this becomes a personal journey that clothing assists in at least initially so by taking crossdressing out from under the TG umbrella the person could be taken out as well when being included could be the difference between life and death.

Just as there are masculine females and feminine males are there different degree's that someone is TS in that they retain some masculine qualities even though they are woman?

In my opinion most if not all heterosexual males could crossdress because all would be able to identify with the female within them if for no other reason than that males and females are more alike than they are different

As strange as this may sound I think every human being falls under the TG umbrella in one way or another at some point in their lives whether they know it or not, but very few are TS simply because you cannot become TS you can only be born into it.

LisaMallon

06-09-2012, 04:05 AM

I've been through some of these arguments in the CD/TG/etc groups I am involved with. And I get constantly amazed at the passion (even venom) between certain groups.
We don't have all the scientific data yet, but everything I have read shows that this is far more of a continuum.

No person exists in a vacuum, their behaviour is a product of their environment, their social/economic/etc situation at any particular point in time.
All of these impact your decisions and of course they change over time.

I have talked to many long term CD'ers and quite a few have said that if they had been born in more recent times they might have transitioned. But they couldn't.
And then as time wore on they gained responsibilities and habits which were hard to break, so they 'femulate' at times, that is their release, their happy time.

To put it more in perspective, when I grew up and felt the things I did at a very young age, there was no thing such as transgendered.
If at any stage I had come out with it my parents would have been horrified and tried to put it all away.
If society, as it was then, came to know about it I would have lucky to just get away with my brain being electro shocked into jelly, unlucky I would have had a brain operation. In any case I would have been drugged into insensibility.
Here in Australia, in Victoria it was illegal for a male to wear womens clothes (still is in Tasmania). You went to jail, until the psychs got you if you were unlucky.

So a lot of older CDs are those that made the best deal with life that they could.

For younger one now, they feel something, start dressing and get a balance in some ways. They come to forums like this.
And they find their own personal solution, which as always is a compromise. Even people that transition fully compromise to an extent.

Some, like myself, move further towards transition, some keep at one level, some go back.
Some change through time, me a long time CD'er, now starting transition.

Some give it up entirely through love (that seems to be the single biggest reason), their love of their partner, their love of their children for example.
Money matters, now I have told just about everyone socially that I am transitioning .. but not those I do work for.
I intend, eventually of course, but I like to eat. My dog need to eat. So this will happen carefully and slowly.

Some of it is more internal, the desires only happen infrequently (maybe a hormonal cycle?), so they find their balance by riding the waves.
Lots of talk here about the 'pink fog', I personally know that you get worried when you are in that 'pink' stage all the time.

But I don't think there is any real difference in totality, just in degree and how we, as individuals all in our own circumstance and situations deal with it to the best of their abilities.

Kathryn Martin

06-09-2012, 05:12 AM

There seem to be several misunderstandings that create some issues. Transgender as an umbrella term describes anyone who struggles with the identity of their gender or their sex. Someone who is a crossdresser, autogynephiliac, gender queers or for that matter a transvestic fetishist have issues with their gender even if they never would think of changing their sex. The range in which these gender issues can occur go from non acceptance of the binary gender configuration (gender queer) to gender expression and presentation (crossdressers) to how their sexual expression works (autogynephilliacs, autoandrophiliacs) that is arousal and gratification come from idealizing oneself as a sexual being in the other gender, to externalizing sexual arousal through the help of objects in this case female or male clothing (transvestic fetishists). All of these and combinations of these nevertheless can create severe struggles with how gender is perceived and coped with. It is always a gender identity struggle even if it is purely about sexual gratification. Dysphoria here is the heart of the struggle. All of these persons are gender variant.

For transsexuals it is not about gender. The struggle with gender that we perceive through dysphoria is more connected to social anxiety about how one would be perceived if one would follow the gender that is at the root of a transsexuals being. Most transsexuals once they overcome their social anxiety and accept who they are and act on it have no dysphoria. For them it is all about bringing into congruence their body to what they are in their emotional and spiritual inner configuration.

In this sense dysphoria for gender variant persons is the struggle they go through. For transsexuals the struggle is in-congruence which masks itself as dysphoria (which really is just a fancy word for depression) and is a transitory state while the acceptance issues and in-congruence issues are worked out. I have yet to see a transsexual who after successful transition still suffers from depression associated with their gender identity.

I believe that we all need support in one form or another and the classification of transgender attempts to create advocacy for all. However, the real issue is if lumping everyone into one pot which is generally done by transgender advocates serves the real issues each of those groups face. The issue for transsexuals is a medical issue and requires certain very specific things from a trans health perspective. The issue for gender variant persons requires certain things from a social acceptance perspective. But conflating sex and gender under the transgender umbrella, the very real trans health issues get drowned out by the social acceptance demands. A typical example is the recent decision by the Ontario Human Rights Commission. It decided that the threshold of requiring surgery to allow for the changes in documentation is not reasonable (clearly advocacy from a transgender perspective) resulting in a significantly reduced need to fund surgery if the decision is accepted. Why would the government fund this if it is not necessary to have the surgery to permit full social acceptance in the target gender. The result is that transsexuals who need surgery because of their health problem will be cut off. (this possibility by the way is my main reason not support this decision).

Persons with gender variance are equally entitled to have their demands heard, suffer equally from gender dysphoria but for different reasons. They are and should be recognized and need our support as much as transsexuals do. However, for very different reasons.

ANYWAY! the cis-woman member of our support group (may have been a founder, not sure) and I were talking about our acceptance of cross dressers in our group and if the term transgender should include cross dressers. However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

Paula_56

06-09-2012, 05:23 AM

The whole thing about being Transgender is just that, I don't know where I fit, there are days I'm booking airfare to Thailand and then there are the purges. There are so many factors, family, guilt, shame, FEAR that influence and confuse us....................can I explain it all in thread No! I am transgendered.

steph1964

06-09-2012, 05:46 AM

However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

So what is the alternative, to have separate groups? I don’t wish this to sound argumentative because I think that this is a good post, however, I don’t think that many of us initially know where we sit on the transgender spectrum.

I am in my late 40’s and have been crossdressing probably since I was four years old. Because of the guilt and shame involved, like most of us, I suppressed the desires whenever possible. My thoughts were usually limited to when was the next time I would get to dress up, and why did I do that.

I am married and have two adult children, and if I had been asked two months ago, I would have been one who would have said that it was just the clothes. But for me, it isn’t just the clothes. My wife and I have been seeing a counselor for over a year and I have been trying to come to terms with something I perceived as a “terrible thing.” My wife has been very accepting to a point, but recently decided that she had gone as far as she was comfortable, and anything pushing our boundaries may affect our marriage. This forced me to reflect on my life and what I discovered was that I have always wanted to be a girl. I had the dreams, prayed I would wake up I girl, didn’t have much in common with other boys, and had a lot of internal gender identification issues that I chose to ignore.

Part of me coming to this realization was from reading a lot of posts from TS girls, including many from you. Due to previous misconceptions, I believed that people who were TS hated their genitalia, and would rather die that remain in the “wrong body.” After reading many posts, I found that many TS had stories very similar to my own. I agree that there are some who have always known that they are TS, and others who will never have the desire to be more than a CD, but there are many of us who don’t know, and didn’t realize that we didn’t know. Without contact to those who are TS, I probably wouldn’t have been able to reach this conclusion. Nothing may change in my life, but exposure to others stories has helped me to better understand myself.

Julia_in_Pa

06-09-2012, 06:00 AM

Bree,

I identify with Nikki Araguz.
I'm Intersexed but I also identify as Transsexual and have received some flak over it by other Intersexed people.

I am in the camp that Transsexuals and Intersexed people are very different than anyone under the Transgender umbrella.

This is why Transsexual and Intersexed people are not part of the Transgender umbrella.
Cross dresser's, gender queer's, part timer's and everyone else that are not Transsexual or Intersexed fall squarely within the context of the Transgender umbrella.

To me and others the term " Transgender " is offensive like the term Hermaphrodite is offensive to Intersexed people.

Julia

Nigella

06-09-2012, 06:14 AM

Lets face it Bree, in the context of this forum, the word transgender covers the majority of members who wish to identify that way, nothing we say will sway an opinion on whether this label fits or not.

In the context of your group, it is up to them to identify who they consider to be be transgender. As a support group, I would hope that they would accept any person who identifies themselves as transgender. For them to turn away a crossdress who identifies themselves as transgender is IMHO a little bit of elitism, somthing out community can do without.

jillleanne

06-09-2012, 07:06 AM

I think this question has been hashed over many times in the past and will continue to be brought back to hash over some more in the future. I guess we are going to flog it some more now, which I suppose, is just human. Why people need to, no demand to be able to label us neatly in some category to do what, protect the category they accept as exclusively theirs? All for whatever reason, mistifies me but nonetheless exists. No disrespect to you Bree so don't take my post the wrong way as it's not directed at you, but sooner or later, we all need to forget about the petty stuff like definitions/labels, and concentrate on the big picture which is getting governments and society to learn to accept all people from all walks of life, regardless of any differences. Hard to do or too idealistic you say? I don't see the problem with the logic. In the long run, who really cares? I don't. Call me whatever you feel makes you happy, it matters not to me. I do not use, nor have a need for labels to justify my existence. Labels are for someone else to use to appease themselves in justifying their opinion of something/someone. So, to answer your question, in my opinion, I was born transgender, I am transgender, and I will die transgender. Regardless of whether I am labelled as a crossdresser or preop the day I die, I will still be transgender. I would question however, whether anyone post op would have a need to be labelled transgendered however, as they do not cross gender lines anymore. I express externally, internal mental and physical traits of both male and female, not only by dressing as and interacting with the public as female sometimes or by doing all the 'guy' things I do, but by certain mental idealologies and actions, i.e., I do not like violence, I do not like to participate in contact sports, I pay particular attention on how people dress, act, I notice colors, patterns, hair styles, etc., the list goes on for both my genders. In many of my posts, in an attempt to avoid labels, I often will use the term 'gender enhanced', not to be used as a label, but a description of how I feel who I am, which is, gender fluid, or gender variant, or specifically, a male with internal female traits, a real need to express my feminine feelings, emotions, desires. I do not dress en femme for fun per say. The expression is born from an internal need, not desire.
I really doubt there is anyone out there that crossdresses, that does not have any internal struggles with their identities, in fact I would bet money on it, and I am not a betting person. Anyone that does not have any internal struggles with expressing themselves with the opposite gender are fetishists, not gender enhanced. Why the hiding, secrets, stashes of clothing? Why do they not head to the hardware store in panties and bra and heels for all to see? Because they struggle with the issue. Are they transgender? Of course they are. They cross the lines society has made in establishing a definition of male and female and they can do so at any time they feel the need. Fetishists? Well they are just that and they are well aware of it and struggle not.
Somewhere in the above, I think I gave you my opinion on your question. Why, why, why, do people have such a need for labels?

Rachel Smith

06-09-2012, 07:35 AM

Many "moons" ago, when I romped and played of youth, I lumped CD/DQ/TG/TS under ONE large umbrella.

But today, I am sure I will catch flack over this forthcoming statement. Nevertheless, it is "MY" absolute opinion that CD's or anyone else for that matter who wants to keep their penises for whatever reason are NOT transsexual. AND Transsexuals who want to keep that label are NOT WOMEN!

Now Remember Bree said we want to be "CIVIL." So unload your shotguns and take this olive branch that I offer you!

I have to disagree with you Traci. I feel I am as transsexual/transgender as anyone. Just because I do not now nor will I ever have enough money to get surgery makes me no less so. I realized my dilemma to late in life and was far to loose with my money when I was young. I dress and identify as a woman everywhere except at work which I hope to change in the near future. It's just that I have recently started at both places I work and don't feel I have the job security to be female there. I have said it many times before here but will say it again. I have more confidence, pride and feel absolutely my true self as a woman and having a penis changes non of that.

Love to all
Rachel

juno

06-09-2012, 07:39 AM

As I alwayss say, the gender/sex descriptive terms are necessarily fuzzy, because gender and sex are a continuum. The adjective "tall" is useful, but people don't argue about the exact height cut-off, and it is context-dependent. We need to treat gender terminology the same way. Use them as adjectives, not labels. That is why "crossdresser", an activity, is preferred to "transvestite", a label.

Crossdressing is done for all sorts of reasons. Some of them are definitely transgender and some are definitely not. Most are probably in the middle somewhere, sort of moderately transgender. Many "fetish" crossdressers really only view it as a fetish because they started young when hormones were high, and sex permeated all parts of life. Later on, they realize that it is far more than a fetish. Remember, men have a hard time getting in touch with their feelings. Male-to-female crossdressers often claim they don't know why they do it, and it is therefore impossible for anyone else to know why they do it.

My opinion is that we should just give all crossdressers the same respect and allow them to be included as transgender, if they want to be considered transgender.

The big problem is that fetishist crossdressing is used as a political tool to prevent transgender rights laws from passing. That creates a lot of animosity with transsexuals who are just trying to live their life, feeling that a few people going out just for fun are part of the problem for their daily struggles. Don't hate the crossdressers, hate the politicians. Actually, don't hate anyone; hate is the enemy.

MC-lite

06-09-2012, 07:48 AM

Okay I'll try this. First of all put me down as a "middle pather" I'm dealing with GID. The old joke comes to mind how long from Cd to TS (2 years). Many CD's do end up discovering they are actually TS. So if they are left out of the TG umbrella it is a dis-service to them.

Also keep in mind that the TS group is very small and there are divisions within the ranks itself regarding who is a true TS relating to SRS or not. It is fractured.

I've mentioned many times here that the general public does not know the difference between a TS girl, a CDer, or a drag queen. To them it's just a man in a dress. So the girls out there in public that are not TS are opening doors for everybody including the TS girls. They are helping the cause and should be protected in the umbrella group.

There is strength in numbers.

Feel free to to discredit my thoughts, they are my own opinion.:)

@Marleena: I agree with your statements here. And it's interesting that since this is a crossdressers forum, we are the ones being accepted here and allowed to exist among the ranks. :)

The general public knows very little about us (meaning TS). Some sage people take the time to understand, but, for the most part, we're lumped in with the Rupal's drag race crowd. Many times, I've heard the statement "Oh, You're trans? I have lots of gay friends." I have a few too. But I'm not gay. I'm a straight female. or "We should hang out at this club I know...It's a really cool drag club!" I have to tell them that I'm not into crossdressing or drag. I don't even like drag. To me,it holds the same appeal as women dressing up in industrial uniforms.

When that happens, and it almost -always- happens when I meet someone for the first time, I take it as an opportunity to try to educate them and explain what's going on in our community. Usually, they mean well, and have no other way of bonding with me. I respect their effort to bond, and I try to befriend them and help them to understand.

IMHO the "cause" here is being accepted for who and what we are. Yeah, we have to work together on this, but make no mistakes about it, we -are- different.

:Miki.

juno

06-09-2012, 07:52 AM

Many "moons" ago, when I romped and played of youth, I lumped CD/DQ/TG/TS under ONE large umbrella.

But today, I am sure I will catch flack over this forthcoming statement. Nevertheless, it is "MY" absolute opinion that CD's or anyone else for that matter who wants to keep their penises for whatever reason are NOT transsexual. AND Transsexuals who want to keep that label are NOT WOMEN!

Now Remember Bree said we want to be "CIVIL." So unload your shotguns and take this olive branch that I offer you!
I am not going to disagree with you. I am just going to outright say that you are wrong. Are flat-chested women still women if they don't get breast implants?

My personal opinion is that genetalia are just a minor part of your gender. I am much more concerned about every other aspect of my appearance. I would like to have a vagina, but there is no way to get a real one, just something similar. I just don't care that much about genetalia, and would rather avoid unnecessary surgeries. I am early in transition, so I may change my mind once my other features have improved. However, I know that current statistics are that only 1 in 6 transsexuals get SRS, so my current opinion is in the majority.

MC-lite

06-09-2012, 08:13 AM

@Juno: Some food for thought. Flat chested and well endowed women have one thing in common: They -all- have vaginas.
If you can't afford SRS, that's a different story. But without a vagina,IMHO, you're -not- a woman.

And that's how society feels.

No offense to anybody. :)

Marleena

06-09-2012, 08:26 AM

Don't shoot the messenger! Bree in this case.:)

Some of the TS groups are elitists meaning that any MTF that does not identify as a TS woman is a crossdresser in their eyes. These groups are pushing for removing CD's from under the TG umbrella. Each TS group might have their own definition of Cder's however. This is the missing piece of the puzzle for the TS group Bree is referring to in the OP.

As for Julia and intersexed TS women being shunned is another example of discrimination as far as I'm concerned.

MC-lite

06-09-2012, 08:42 AM

Cheryl T

06-09-2012, 08:51 AM

I think my question in response to Bree's would be "Why do we have to draw a line?".
Seems to me that by "drawing a line" we are segregating a portion of the community and being as prejudicial as the "normal" world (please excuse the use of that word) is when they draw their line and separate us from them. That separation is what causes all the fear and concern that we feel when we are in the mainstream world.

Do we also have to distinguish each other or can't we all work together for the common good?

P.S. - I would consider myself Transgendered...

Marleena

06-09-2012, 08:52 AM

Michelle.M

06-09-2012, 09:18 AM

What an interesting thread! I'm loving the responses being given here.

I think the need for this discussion in the first place stems from the discrimination Nikki Araguz has experienced, and her experience is all too typical.

We complain about discrimination from society, but sometimes the discrimination we face from our own community can be just as bad. Maybe even worse. Too many people who fall under the TG umbrella tend to adopt the attitude of "trans-er than thou", and we stratify our own community. I've seen post-op look down on pre-op, non-op discounted entirely. CDs regarded as hobbyists without any time being taken to listen to that person express doubt as to whether cross dressing for them is a way station on the road to transition. Or not. And nobody seems interested in trying to understand those who are intersexed at all.

I mean, it just does not stop! As a community we can be brutal to each other. Nikki's story is evidence of that. No wonder there are no accurate numbers of just how many people identify as TG - who'd want to self-identify in such a hostile climate?

People have commented that they are grateful for this forum as a safe space, and it is. And my being here has taught me the value of being extremely reluctant to draw the line.

So, the answer to the original question - "where do you draw the line?" is - I don't, if at all possible.

MC-lite

06-09-2012, 09:22 AM

@Marleena: Sorry. :o

Marleena

06-09-2012, 09:28 AM

@Marleena: Sorry. :o

It's all good. No worries.:)

Launa

06-09-2012, 09:35 AM

When I came to this site around a year ago I thought we were all just a big happy family, I always knew there was a difference between TS and a CD but did not know the "true differences" between all of us such as transvestite, crossdresser, transgendered, gender dysphoria issues, a gay CDer, drag queen etc and I'm still learning as I go along like the difference between TS and intersexed. Now I see that there are sometimes different gangs amonst us. I would think we all fall under the Transgender umbrella to some degree. I'm still trying to figure out who the "F" I am.
I'm sexually attracted to women, I like my male penis, I like to do all things women get to do such as having no body hair, nice nails, shaped eyebrows and I would have long hair if I wasn't bald. If I could wear womens clothes everyday I probably would except for doing construction chores etc. Would I transition? At this point in my life, not a chance. If I could hit a magic switch and be born female all over again then I would hit that switch so fast
and start it all over. So where do I fall under the umbrella? Transgender I guess.
I think that even Cd's who say they are in it for only a "fetish" have at least some internal struggles with their identity. They might not be admitting it or don't have the stronger urges that some of us have.

Inna

06-09-2012, 10:00 AM

I am sorry I did not read any postings and so it is less of a discussion then just an opinion, but nevertheless, I'll have a go ;)

Transgender or in fact any label we associate with a group will lead to confusion and stereotype, however it is a necessary evil in regards to standards and science to be a viable source for research, social awareness and political stance.

Said that, we are trying to define non constant medium, because what we see, is not exactly what it truly is, at least not always!!!!!!

A CROSSDRESSER may wear a skirt and nothing else because he likes the feeling of the air drafting against his privates and love the freedom and hippie nature of the experience. Is he a transgender individual, I don't think so. But is he a trans human, YES, for anyone strong enough to go against rigid conformity of societal box, he certainly has Big Balls, (do you get it? ha, ha)

However, another will wear the same exact skirt to promote the feminine image, making such connotation absolutely TRANSGENDER.

So in a nut shell, it is simply impossible to correctly and adequately decipher the person unless he or she are known to us in a personal aspect of being.

But rest assured that any one, and I mean ANYONE b eing a male and wearing women's garments will be seen by societies rigid eye as a trans-whatever, but trans never the less, and what is even more disturbing is that the more masculine their features are the more FREAK LABEL they being assessed and assigned.

PS: Personally, believing the above statement to be true, I haven't come across any individual who would dress in opposite sex clothing and yet remain absolutely masculine and rigid. And throughout my transition I have come across, slew of crossdressers, fetishistic and non, transsexuals who are confused, sex-driven, gender honest and just about any depth of trans understanding.

Badtranny

06-09-2012, 10:06 AM

For the sake of this thread I think the demarcation is obvious.

Everybody who has come out and lives their lives openly (however that may be) is TG and those that are on HRT and living as women full time are TS.

Overly simplified sure, but a TS can't be closeted by definition and if a person admits to being a CD or goes out and socializes as a CD then they are clearly TG.

If you're closeted, you have no political influence anyway. You literally do not exist in the public eye, so arguing about what you should be called is kind of silly. I believe the phrase "stand up and be counted" applies in this case. Let's step away from how we feel for a bit and start talking about how we LIVE. What does your life look like? What label should you wear (proudly) according to how you live your life? (in regard to gender issues only please)

PretzelGirl

06-09-2012, 10:19 AM

I look at it a different way. Why do we need to draw a line? We have massive amount of threads around here about labels and where each person falls and that is great as a mental exercise. But look at what you are exactly asking. If a person that crossdresses and feels 100% male and 0% female isn't Transgender and one that feels 95% male and 5% female is Transgender, what have we accomplished with this definition? Just Transgender by itself brings up the need for a lot of education in our world so if we start drawing finite lines, it becomes an undertaking that probably can't be achieved.

I am all for keeping things simple. If we need to get down to a defined level of detail, maybe that should only come up for the therapists that need to decide which way to treat someone. The rest just serves as a means for people to say "I am this and you are that" and that is where a lot of discussions go down hill here. For real world application, it seems to be something that would be too confusing for the general public. Now if it is just for the mental exercise....

Nigella

06-09-2012, 11:21 AM

I guess anyone who identifies themselves, in whatever shape, name or any other description, as the opposite gender to their birth gender must be by definition transgendered. This includes those on the forum who although clearly state they are pure and simple CD, must by definintion be transgendered if they identify themselves in any way as female, this includes the adoption of a female name.

As has already been stated "Transgendered = Crossed Gender"

Rebecca Star

06-09-2012, 11:55 AM

ReineD

06-09-2012, 01:48 PM

For want of a better word I'm a CD. I present two uniquely different personas when I'm a male as apposed to when I'm Rebecca. The later is driven by definite feminine characteristics and dress et...al. Albeit I don't have an internal struggle with regard to being a girl stuck in a man's body etc..etc. But is that not a moot point given the changes I mention?

And this post is a perfect example of the dire need, in this community, to come up with words that everyone will agree with, which more accurately define the major groups of people here.

Rebecca Star uses the term "crossdresser" to describe herself. Someone else who will feel just as she does, will use "transgender", because their definition of a crossdresser is a person who has no feminine bents or characteristics at all. Another person will say they are "bigender" or "dualgender", whether they feel themselves male/female, 75/25, 50/50, or 25/75. Someone else might specify the type of crossdresser and say they are an "identity CD". Still another person will say they are "crossgender".

:eek:

Inna

06-09-2012, 02:07 PM

LOL, I think the problematic nature of the subject at hand isn't so much with word definition, but that for lot, if not majority, knowing thy self is ever illusive through years of conditioned conformity to stereotype. How can a blind man see the color, how can deaf hear rain drops, just as well how transgender can honestly say "I AM", if all they know is subconscious fear of non conforming status!

Kathryn Martin

06-09-2012, 02:11 PM

Transsexuals seek not to be included under the Transgender umbrella. You have it backwards.

Don't shoot the messenger! Bree in this case.:)

Some of the TS groups are elitists meaning that any MTF that does not identify as a TS woman is a crossdresser in their eyes. These groups are pushing for removing CD's from under the TG umbrella. Each TS group might have their own definition of Cder's however. This is the missing piece of the puzzle for the TS group Bree is referring to in the OP.

As for Julia and intersexed TS women being shunned is another example of discrimination as far as I'm concerned.

ReineD

06-09-2012, 02:12 PM

LOL, I think the problematic nature of the subject at hand isn't so much with word definition, but that for lot, if not majority, knowing thy self is ever illusive through years of conditioned conformity to stereotype.

This too. But, language forms the basis for awareness and ideas. If there is well-defined language (that must consider the major points along the gender spectrum rather than a choice of three: CD, TG, or TS), then it will make it easier for people to define themselves all that much sooner.

AllieSF

06-09-2012, 02:17 PM

Reine, I think that finding the correct terminology for "us" is like trying to build a better mousetrap or searching for the Holy Grail. Nice to have, but impossible to do or find. I think what is needed more than anything else is for all people to just accept what exists as workable, and it is very workable, stay away from drawing lines on the beach where passing waves eventually wipe them out, support others in their quests and journeys and stay away from the us versus them mentality which can be rampant here in some threads and I have already read clearly in this one (based on reading the same comments from the same people many times in the past in less civilized threads).

If I am not mistaken, this very site has tried to define some terms on the home page. Then we have regional, country and cultural differences to deal with. If someone wants to draw the line so that "they" are on the correct side, let them and then ignore them, because that line is only important to them and anyone else who likes to take the narrower less inclusive approach to life. Some people say that Transgender should only be used for those who are a certain way, or you are TS only if you have or at least want to do this, or when you are on HRT, or you are a woman only if you have your genitals restructured into look alike non-functioning female ones. This is one of those discussions that can be interesting, somewhat informative, and also fun as people start to stake out their "earned" territory and then defend it against unwanted intruders.

Labels, contrary to what some think are not negative, though their use can be sometimes. They help describe and help the un-learned, novices and even the veterans to better understand something. They also sometimes help in serious discussions as long as the participants agree to some common definitions beforehand, or don;t get their sensitive noses bent out of shape when someone "misuses" a term. Otherwise, a good discussion can go bad very quickly. I use labels, stereotypes and pigeon holes all the time as a natural thought process to orientate myself in a conversation. I never hold strict boundaries to that label and let the conversation prove, disprove or expand my original assessment. So, with these types of discussions in this thread, I try to be flexible and learn from the experience, unless someone really gets down on one side or the other. Then my defenses go up for myself and for others.

Kathryin Martin: Are you saying that for all Transsexuals? I have read many TS's comments here that would indicate to me anyway, that it may not be the majority opinion.

jillleanne

06-09-2012, 02:54 PM

And this post is a perfect example of the dire need, in this community, to come up with words that everyone will agree with, which more accurately define the major groups of people here.

:eek:

Good luck with that one. We haven't added the fact some will remain static in their label and other will remain fluid thoughout their entire lives evolving through other labels unbeknownst to them currently. So how can we accomodate every single person that expresses some variation of their opposite birth gender( let's not forget FtoM)? By assigning the term 'Transgender' to all and any that are pre-op/non-op. If they now, or intend to, live and work fulltime as the opposite gender, I would consider them as the gender they are expressing themselves as and not transgender or anything else. Obviously, anyone post op would simply be their current gender self, not their birth gender. I suspect this idea however to meet some resistance. If the opportunity arises whereby one needs to be more specific, well then, they can do that. " I am transgender, but if you must know, I am a heterosexual non-op transgender male."

Kathryn Martin

06-09-2012, 03:05 PM

Allie, I would refer you to my first post in this thread. Once you realize the difference in the issues facing TS and TG persons then it becomes clear why this would be so. To state, as Marleena did, that TG persons are "pushing to remove" crossdressers" from the TG umbrella is simply not correct. It is TS persons who have been saying that their needs which are trans-health related do not find a useful home under the TG umbrella agenda which is social acceptance related. Understanding the difference between gender variance and transsexualism is at the heart of this debate.

This continuum and spectrum view that is so often taken is, with respect, simply wrong for TS persons, since if you are TS you are firmly rooted in a gender binary. You seek to make your body congruent with your gender experience, which is usually one gender not a little bit of this and little bit of that.

For TG persons this is different, which is why it is described as a variance from the gender binary. There you find persons which are more or less along a continuum between the poles of the binary. For instance a crossdresser often is a person of one gender, who expresses him/herself through clothing which is of the other gender, from slightly flamboyant to androgynous to fully of the other gender. Likewise gender queers who do not wish to be identified as one or the other gender at all. Those are variances and the degree of variance determines the location of the spectrum which is simply made of of a multitude of such locations.

Nothing in this debate however, takes anything away from the fact that we (TS and TG) all need support in each of our endeavors.

So, where do you draw the line? My line is drawn when someone tries to conflate sex and gender, tries to assert that we are all the same and is willfully blind to what the actual differences are. Sadly, determining the differences and developing appropriate approaches to the issues for each of them is hard work and doesn't make for good TV. So we all happily dance along without a care what problems we create for each other. Since TS persons are quite rare and few and far between while gender variant persons make up the vast majority of the TG community the very specific needs and issues facing TS persons gets drowned out. I have looked and there is a dearth of TS positive health related content out there. Most of the content is simply social acceptance content.

The TG community believes it needs TS persons under their umbrella, because their health issues lend legitimacy to the TG social acceptance agenda. However, in the process they dilute and often destroy the life and death needs of TS persons.

I have many gender variant friends for whom I have the greatest respect, friendship and love. But this stupid umbrella thing is harmful.

Kathryin Martin: Are you saying that for all Transsexuals? I have read many TS's comments here that would indicate to me anyway, that it may not be the majority opinion.

Bree-asaurus

06-09-2012, 03:05 PM

To everyone asking me why I think we have to draw a line, I'm not saying we do. I asked: where do YOU draw the line?

Again, this discussion was prompted because I SEE people drawing lines everywhere and I don't always understand it. The only line I kind of draw in my head is explained by Reine in this quote:

The people who do not belong under the transgender umbrella, in my opinion, are people who solidly identify with their birth sex, i.e, cismen, ciswomen, and transvectic fetishists for whom the reason to dress is for sexual fetish only and they have not one iota of cross-gender identity.

I basically already said this in my initial post and a follow up post. But this is just my opinion. I have seen many people in the cross dressing forum explicitly say that they are totally happy being men and just like to wear women's cloths. If they have no gender issues... are they transgender? Regardless, I like that our local trans support group, while really only consists from transsexuals, is open to anyone (except the biggoted lol...). So even though we are there to basically support those with gender issues, we open up to cross dressers as well.

I think my question in response to Bree's would be "Why do we have to draw a line?".

I'm not sitting here saying we need to form a line drawing commitee... I just wanted to have an open discussion because people ARE drawing lines everywhere... it just baffles me that people can be so exclusive, like I mentioned in the examples in my original post.

I think the need for this discussion in the first place stems from the discrimination Nikki Araguz has experienced, and her experience is all too typical.

Exactly this!

No disrespect to you Bree so don't take my post the wrong way as it's not directed at you, but sooner or later, we all need to forget about the petty stuff like definitions/labels, and concentrate on the big picture which is getting governments and society to learn to accept all people from all walks of life, regardless of any differences.

That would be ideal, I totally agree... but until that happens we still have to look at things from a the standpoint that certain groups under this transgender umbrella need medical and legal support, but because we are saying anyone from a crossdresser to the intersexed is transgender, the transgender community as a whole is getting misrepresented... and I like what Kathryn had to say about this:

The issue for transsexuals is a medical issue and requires certain very specific things from a trans health perspective. The issue for gender variant persons requires certain things from a social acceptance perspective. But conflating sex and gender under the transgender umbrella, the very real trans health issues get drowned out by the social acceptance demands.

(I made partial quotes because quoting entire posts would make this post ginormous)

jillleanne

06-09-2012, 03:31 PM

Allie, I would refer you to my first post in this thread. Once you realize the difference in the issues facing TS and TG persons then it becomes clear why this would be so. To state, as Marleena did, that TG persons are "pushing to remove" crossdressers" from the TG umbrella is simply not correct. It is TS persons who have been saying that their needs which are trans-health related do not find a useful home under the TG umbrella agenda which is social acceptance related. Understanding the difference between gender variance and transsexualism is at the heart of this debate.

This continuum and spectrum view that is so often taken is, with respect, simply wrong for TS persons, since if you are TS you are firmly rooted in a gender binary. You seek to make your body congruent with your gender experience, which is usually one gender not a little bit of this and little bit of that.

For TG persons this is different, which is why it is described as a variance from the gender binary. There you find persons which are more or less along a continuum between the poles of the binary. For instance a crossdresser often is a person of one gender, who expresses him/herself through clothing which is of the other gender, from slightly flamboyant to androgynous to fully of the other gender. Likewise gender queers who do not wish to be identified as one or the other gender at all. Those are variances and the degree of variance determines the location of the spectrum which is simply made of of a multitude of such locations.

Nothing in this debate however, takes anything away from the fact that we (TS and TG) all need support in each of our endeavors.

So, where do you draw the line? My line is drawn when someone tries to conflate sex and gender, tries to assert that we are all the same and is willfully blind to what the actual differences are. Sadly, determining the differences and developing appropriate approaches to the issues for each of them is hard work and doesn't make for good TV. So we all happily dance along without a care what problems we create for each other. Since TS persons are quite rare and few and far between while gender variant persons make up the vast majority of the TG community the very specific needs and issues facing TS persons gets drowned out. I have looked and there is a dearth of TS positive health related content out there. Most of the content is simply social acceptance content.

The TG community believes it needs TS persons under their umbrella, because their health issues lend legitimacy to the TG social acceptance agenda. However, in the process they dilute and often destroy the life and death needs of TS persons.

I have many gender variant friends for whom I have the greatest respect, friendship and love. But this stupid umbrella thing is harmful.

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

Bree-asaurus

06-09-2012, 03:53 PM

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

You both make good points. I've seen a few transsexuals here that support the idea of separating TS and TG. As I stated earlier, I am of the opinion that TGs who are not cis-male cross dressers identified more with transsexuals because both groups have internal gender struggles. And that's also why I was wondering why CDs who have GID don't call themselves TG... because they aren't cross dressing in my mind, but simply expressing their internal gender, or part of it. But I guess that even though TGs have GID like TSs, the TGs aren't likely to seek medical and legal support to transition (guessing... don't yell at me!). So maybe it does make more sense to have two separate groups divided by the kind of support they need? If it's just social equality, or if it's social equality, medical and legal support. And even though being intersexed is not being transsexual (although many are both), TS and IS have similar needs that are different from the needs of CD and TG (if we remove TS from TG).

(By medical support, I don't mean therapists... I mean HRT, SRS, etc)

And I'm totally just talking here... questioning what I believe and talking out loud.

Julia_in_Pa

06-09-2012, 04:15 PM

That is a well thought out and articulate answer and I couldn't agree with you more.

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

Kelly Greene

06-09-2012, 05:20 PM

It seams to me that an idea is being proposed:

CD= I dress up in opposite gender clothing for fun, my body and gender match no need for major changes I just want to have fun.
TG= I have feelings of being both genders I find it difficult or impossible to live only as my birth gender, but I am not fully male or female (may need to some form of transition )
TS= my body and gender are out of sync and I need to get them to match, medical and legal changes needed

Everyone needs protection against violence and discrimination.

ReineD

06-09-2012, 06:18 PM

CD= I dress up in opposite gender clothing for fun, my body and gender match no need for major changes I just want to have fun.
TG= I have feelings of being both genders I find it difficult or impossible to live only as my birth gender, but I am not fully male or female (may need to some form of transition )
TS= my body and gender are out of sync and I need to get them to match, medical and legal changes needed

LOL. We need to expand on the TG a bit, not only here, but in the media as well.

Currently, these are the various ways I've seen people use "TG":

TG = I present as a man (no makeup, no girl's hair, no forms) but I like to wear dresses and heels as a man. This is who I am therefore I do not crossdress. But, I'm not strictly a guy either.
TG = I'm a drag queen. I have breast implants, I've had FFS, I'm attracted to men, but I am known as a male in my gay community. I don't want to chop off my junk.
TG = I'm genderqueer. I like to mix male cues such as my beard, with female cues such as breasts and a wig. To hell with everyone who disapproves.
TG = I do not want to look like a man or a woman, I want to be sexless. I'm androgynous and I want my appearance to reflect this.
TG = I have "fun" with the CDing most times, but at other times I have strong feminine feelings. I don't know who I am, so this label is easiest.
TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female but I prefer to present as a male most of the time.
TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female, but I prefer to present as a female most of the time.
TG = All I want to do is be feminine, but I can't because my wife won't let me and we need my job. I only underdress. (Truth is, even if I didn't have the wife or the job, I likely wouldn't change anything).
TG = All I want to do is wear the clothes all the time and I would love to have the boobs. This is not sexual for me at all. I hate dressing in drab, but there's no way I want to chop off my junk.
TG = I'm a 14 year old. I know I am born in the wrong body, my parents are supporting my early transition, but the media says I am transgender and this is the label I choose to use since I don't want to apply a word that has "sexual" in it to myself. Ever.

I'm sure there are lots of others. :p

jillleanne

06-09-2012, 06:33 PM

You both make good points. I've seen a few transsexuals here that support the idea of separating TS and TG. As I stated earlier, I am of the opinion that TGs who are not cis-male cross dressers identified more with transsexuals because both groups have internal gender struggles. And that's also why I was wondering why CDs who have GID don't call themselves TG... because they aren't cross dressing in my mind, but simply expressing their internal gender, or part of it. But I guess that even though TGs have GID like TSs, the TGs aren't likely to seek medical and legal support to transition (guessing... don't yell at me!). So maybe it does make more sense to have two separate groups divided by the kind of support they need? If it's just social equality, or if it's social equality, medical and legal support. And even though being intersexed is not being transsexual (although many are both), TS and IS have similar needs that are different from the needs of CD and TG (if we remove TS from TG).

(By medical support, I don't mean therapists... I mean HRT, SRS, etc)

And I'm totally just talking here... questioning what I believe and talking out loud.

I have to agree Bree but never give it much thought in hearing cd's w/gid that do not consider themselves Tg. I just chalk it up to the overall ongoing problem that we have such poorly accepted definitions of communities that I simply pay no mind to it. I think the fact some do not identify as TG is born from the facts they believe they are ' just crossdressers', or the term tg is too strong for them to accept or that being tg leads somehow to Ts'ism or to transition, I really don't know. Maybe toss that out there for feedback. lol I do know this as you mention; I am TG and do not at this point in my TG life, have a need or expect to have a need for medical or any other support now or in the future, unlike TS's. I do not however see why we as TG's cannot support the needs and goals of TS's and vice versa where and when necessary.

Pink Person

06-09-2012, 06:37 PM

This is a good question. The pretzel logic that some of the people on this site use to
describe themselves is painful to contemplate. Take some aspirin before getting started.

In my opinion, if you self-identify as a crossdresser or can accurately be described as one through visual inspection then you are not cisgender. What does it mean to be "not cisgender"? There are many attributes and behaviors that can exclude you from being a gender normative person. Crossdressing is only one of them. Surgically modifying your body is another common way to indicate a "not cisgender" personality.

I think there are material similarities between all types of "not cisgender" people, but there are also some critical differences between some of these people. Are there words that capture all of our material similarities and distinguish all of our critical differences? Yes, but not single words.

The general terms and specific terms that are currently used to describe "not cisgender" people are sufficiently meaningful, in my opinion. People who want to define crossdressers as "transgender" or as "not transgender" are both right in different senses. Crossdressers are transgender in the sense that they are "not cisgender". Crossdressers are "not transgender" in the same sense that someone who self-identifies as transgender is transgender. In other words, crossdressers are relatively different from some transgender people, but are not absolutely different from them.

Cisgender people come in many shapes and sizes, so do transgender people. We should allow for a reasonable amount of inclusive variation in our gender categories before consigning other people or ourselves to the gender ether.

jillleanne

06-09-2012, 06:40 PM

LOL. We need to expand on the TG a bit, not only here, but in the media as well.

Currently, these are the various ways I've seen people use "TG":

TG = I present as a man (no makeup, no girl's hair, no forms) but I like to wear dresses and heels as a man. This is who I am therefore I do not crossdress. But, I'm not strictly a guy either.
TG = I'm a drag queen. I have breast implants, I've had FFS, I'm attracted to men, but I am known as a male in my gay community. I don't want to chop off my junk.
TG = I'm genderqueer. I like to mix male cues such as my beard, with female cues such as breasts and a wig. To hell with everyone who disapproves.
TG = I do not want to look like a man or a woman, I want to be sexless. I'm androgynous and I want my appearance to reflect this.
TG = I have "fun" with the CDing most times, but at other times I have strong feminine feelings. I don't know who I am, so this label is easiest.
TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female but I prefer to present as a male most of the time.
TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female, but I prefer to present as a female most of the time.
TG = All I want to do is be feminine, but I can't because my wife won't let me and we need my job. I only underdress. (Truth is, even if I didn't have the wife or the job, I likely wouldn't change anything).
TG = All I want to do is wear the clothes all the time and I would love to have the boobs. This is not sexual for me at all. I hate dressing in drab, but there's no way I want to chop off my junk.
TG = I'm a 14 year old. I know I am born in the wrong body, my parents are supporting my early transition, but the media says I am transgender and this is the label I choose to use since I don't want to apply a word that has "sexual" in it to myself. Ever.

I'm sure there are lots of others. :p

LMAO, oh my, there are soooooo many more when one begins thinking. Therefore, to simplify things, let's use broader rather than finite words that will bond us in a way that supports each other within, and still allow us to recognize and support others that although maybe similar on the surface, require very different needs and support.

TxKimberly

06-09-2012, 06:56 PM

Kaitlyn Michele

06-09-2012, 07:58 PM

in the end, we don't get to draw these lines anyway...and the lines WE draw have virtually no meaning to others...
we can all call ourselves whatever we want...but nobody is a mind reader...and almost nobody cares what we "self identify as..."

In the daily grind, all of our interactions will be filtered through our gender.....you do get to decide which filter gets reflected back at you...but that's about it.

You can choose to live an inside your head life and that's obviously something that people do quite alot when faced with all of this..
...but if you do that, like it or not, you don't have skin in this game other than whether you get your feelings hurt..

reine earlier talked about a dire need for more descriptive labels...i don't agree... i'm with Pink P's point that NOT cisgender is a pretty bright line.......after that it gets muddy and impractical..

jillleanne

06-09-2012, 08:01 PM

OK, I am NOT angry, so dont read that attitude into my response, but I would have to argue with one or two of the things that you state as givens. To the best of my admittedly poor memory, cross dressers ARE under the transgender umbrella by definition. Not that "dictionary.com" is the end all get all resource, but: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender?s=t

The next point I would argue with you about is again based on definitions, but this time they work against me. Most definitions of transsexualism that I have seen require that the person be actively taking steps to change their body. In my humble opinion, being TS is about what you think and feel, not about what you are doing to your body, but who the hell am I to argue with the experts. . . Point being, that since I am not willing to give up my wife, my children, and my career to transition, I will remain a cross dresser - someone who takes every chance they get to spend time as female, but will not be changing my body, living full time, or transitioning. All of this leads up to your comment "since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another." This couldn't be farther from the truth for a good many of us.
If we play the "by definition" game, I am a cross dresser, but I assure you that I, and many others like me, suffer just as many internal struggles about my gender and body as those of you that meet the definition of TS, and we would probably benefit from and desire the same social support that you seek.
NOTHING is so simple, clear cut, and black and white when dealing with the transgender, that you can comfortably say or thing that a cross dresser has no place in a TS support group.

I guess that in my opinion you need to ask more than "are you a TS" or "Are you a CD", because there will quite likely be a lot of gray in there somewhere . . .

I'm not sure if cd's are under the TG banner or not by definition, which, for all intense purposes, means little currently because we have cd's that do not accept they are Tg. Herein lies one of the problems, right? Also, all cd's have gender identy issues. Some control it better than others but anyone that hides anything, physical or mental, has gender identity issues.
I agree with your feelings about TS's partially in that, I think TS's know they are out of sync with birth gender and NEED to correct it. That's not to say they are in transition because there are many reasons they cannot at the current time transition. But they accept they NEED, not WANT to transition. That transition may or may not include GRS but the steps needed to be taken will provide gender and legal changes.

Failure to understand GID might lead someone into falsely thinking they are TS when in fact they are TG with a NEED to express who they are, not necessarily transition.

I think my situation is about as close to the edge of definitions as one can get. Before I came out of the closet, I was at a breaking point mentally. Not to transition because the NEED to do so never ever materialized. But the NEED to stop hiding/lying to myself and others was so strong I reached a point that I was willing to give up all and anything I achieved in 50 years. All I knew is I had to come out of the closet and express my feminine side whenever I wanted to. My feminine side completely took over my life, not the need to become a woman but the need to express myself without fear. Transition was never a consideration BUT if it had come up in the future, I would deal with it then. I was suffering from GIS, Gender Identity Secrecy!
So I was at the extreme end of the Transgender spectrum whereby I know I am heterosexual, and have no NEED to transition, but remaining in a closet was not an option. I have been out now for some years now. I am still heterosexual, I express my feminine self whenever and for as long as I feel I want to which could be weeks. Nothing has changed since coming out except the demons in my head are gone. I know who I am. I am a heterosexual transgender male.
I understand there will be some that continue on a gender road that never rests, in that, they will evolve from crossdressing to needing to be transexual to needing to transition to needing SRS/GRS/FRS and more. I also believe we as communities of Transgender and Transexual people can support each other in our needs without obscuring who we are yet be able to recognize and support the individual needs of each one of us. If we educate ourselves in who we are, surely we will have a much easier time educating society, political leaders, and medical practitioners as to the needs and support mechanisms required for each community.

Badtranny

06-09-2012, 08:34 PM

and also fun as people start to stake out their "earned" territory and then defend it against unwanted intruders.

This is my favorite quote in this discussion so far. Human Nature sometimes prevents as much progress as it encourages.

Xrys

06-10-2012, 02:05 AM

It would apear that I have found something to spark yet another moment of deep thought and self reflection from the philosophical jaberjaw.

First of all, being able to clearly define and classify different levels or severities of gender identity and expression is difficult. Most attempts to classify this type of thing resemble a grey scale. You have two extremes. At one end you have light crossdressing, like underdressing. at the other end you have the full transition, living 24/7 as the opposite gender. Then people try to figure out where on this scale they are. I feel however that the scale is not acurate, as there are a number of factors contributing to ones gender identity. If we can group those factors into 3 categories, and assign each category a contributory value we could more acurately evaluate each situation. The grey scale only is acurate if all therr factors contribute equally. If there is variance in the different factors, then you are stuck trying to figure out what shade of grey red is supposed to be.

Second, there are so many varying shades of each color that one seems to seemlessy blend into another. I mean you can look at come things and say, "oh, that is red," or, "oh, that's orange." But sometimes you look at it and say "well, it is kinda orangeish, redish, kinda medium dark kinda color, I think" It is like asking who is more of a crossdresser, someone who underdresses daily, or someone who fully decks out, but only once a week?

The Third dificulty is the fact thet we are always moving on a path of self discovery, self expression, and self acceptance. Where we were yesterday, we will not be tomorow, until we find our true selves, accept our true selves, and learn to express our true selves. This process for some can take their entire lifetime. It is hard to classify something that is still changing.

Unfortunately, it is easier for for me to see the obstacles than it is for me to find a solution, and I must admit that I do not have one. All i can say is this. There is comething inside that yearns to be expressed and acknowleged, and it chooses something outside of society's gender boundries for that expression. It is unique to each of us, and is only through self reflection, and sometimes professional therapy that we come to understand what it is, and come to accept it as part of ourselves. It is not a matter of just Black, White, and shades of grey, we are dealing with an infinate spectrum of dazeling colors that are constantly shifting and changing. Why does humanity always seem to pick two extremes, then try to cram everything else in a one dimensoinal scale between them.

Sorry, it is realy late for me. Mabey I should return in the morning with a fresh mind and try to make sense of my rambleings.

LisaMallon

06-10-2012, 02:40 AM

Hear, hear Nigella, well said. There are far too few of us to not stick together and support everyone.

We all have enough problems with the rest of the World without creating some amongst ourselves.

mbmeen12

06-10-2012, 05:48 AM

PS: Personally, believing the above statement to be true, I haven't come
across any individual who would dress in opposite sex clothing and yet remain
absolutely masculine and rigid.

Bingo Inna, well stated and that is me to the "T". Bree, I have been off line and wish you are well after your surgery too, Kara....

Sally24

06-10-2012, 05:55 AM

CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

Unfortunately no. Crossdressing is probably the widest category here and is defined as..."the wearing of clothing designed for the opposite sex". I think the CDs who do so for a sexual excitement and the ones who do it purely because it relaxes them do not belong under the transgendered umbrella. Otherwise, I suspect that most CDs have some internal struggle between male and female.

And the people arguing that TS should not be under the TG "umbrella" do not believe that many, if not most, under that umbrella are experiencing the same thing. I meet hundreds of "transgendered" people every year in my social groups and very few have no GID at all. Transsexualism is experienced by many who never transition. And yes, many if not most of those that have SRS did so because the only other choice was suicide. That does not make it a totally different condition, just a severe case of the SAME condition. And as far as the association diluting and reducing the ability of TS people to obtain what they need from society I have to heartily disagree. From us that testify, and lobby for rights, and protections, and medical coverage, over half are TG and not transitioned transsexuals. That work, and our meeting the public and educating them is the primary reason why things have changed for the good so much in the last 10 years. Many TS go stealth or at least low profile so you won't see them on tv or testifying before legislatures or congress. Separating the TS from the TG would be self defeating and incorrect.

LeaP

06-10-2012, 06:32 AM

... People who want to define crossdressers as "transgender" or as "not transgender" are both right in different senses. Crossdressers are transgender in the sense that they are "not cisgender". Crossdressers are "not transgender" in the same sense that someone who self-identifies as transgender is transgender. In other words, crossdressers are relatively different from some transgender people, but are not absolutely different from them.

Cisgender people come in many shapes and sizes, so do transgender people. We should allow for a reasonable amount of inclusive variation in our gender categories before consigning other people or ourselves to the gender ether.

Unfortunately no. Crossdressing is probably the widest category here and is defined as..."the wearing of clothing designed for the opposite sex". I think the CDs who do so for a sexual excitement and the ones who do it purely because it relaxes them do not belong under the transgendered umbrella. Otherwise, I suspect that most CDs have some internal struggle between male and female.

I agree with both sets of comments.

Julia_in_Pa

06-10-2012, 07:16 AM

Most if not all advances concerning gender marker change on driver licenses and birth certificates as well as advancing inclusion for transsexual specific health care along with a myriad of other legal advancements have been spearheaded by transsexual activists that are transsexuals.

Your circular logic concerning transsexual people going stealth after transition thus the reason why the rest of the transgender umbrella has fought and must fight for advances is incorrect.

The very reason why they do disappear is because they wish to move on with their lives. They have nothing in common with anyone claiming the " Transgender umbrella".

This leaves those that have transitioned and have decided to work as advocates and activists to create a more acceptable world for those TS and IS transitioning or transitioned individuals.

Of course you have teams of legal support IE lawers paralegals, etc that are not transsexual that are working in conjunction with transsexual activists.

Part timers, cross dresser's along with other transgender subsets have no qualification or need for gender marker changes concerning driver's licenses or birth certificates due to them not living full time. They do not need housing protections, employment protections nor do they need transsexual specific healthcare to the exception of part timer's moving towards transition thus making your statement incorrect.

You tell me and the rest of us here how a gender marker change on a drivers license for a cross dresser or part timer makes logical sense to you.

It is a constant battle to downplay public image that the general public has of transsexual and Intersexed people due to their perceptions by the public of these groups being a party of perversion of men in dresses.

I've said this many times here and I'm quite sure that I'll say it many times over that transsexual and Intersexed people have little to anything in common with the transgender umbrella thus will not be included under it.

And as far as the association diluting and reducing the ability of TS people to obtain what they need from society I have to heartily disagree. From us that testify, and lobby for rights, and protections, and medical coverage, over half are TG and not transitioned transsexuals. That work, and our meeting the public and educating them is the primary reason why things have changed for the good so much in the last 10 years. Many TS go stealth or at least low profile so you won't see them on tv or testifying before legislatures or congress. Separating the TS from the TG would be self defeating and incorrect.

jillleanne

06-10-2012, 07:33 AM

Most if not all advances concerning gender marker change on driver licenses and birth certificates as well as advancing inclusion for transsexual specific health care along with a myriad of other legal advancements have been spearheaded by transsexual activists that are transsexuals.

Your circular logic concerning transsexual people going stealth after transition thus the reason why the rest of the transgender umbrella has fought and must fight for advances is incorrect.

The very reason why they do disappear is because they wish to move on with their lives. They have nothing in common with anyone claiming the " Transgender umbrella".

This leaves those that have transitioned and have decided to work as advocates and activists to create a more acceptable world for those TS and IS transitioning or transitioned individuals.

Of course you have teams of legal support IE lawers paralegals, etc that are not transsexual that are working in conjunction with transsexual activists.

Part timers, cross dresser's along with other transgender subsets have no qualification or need for gender marker changes concerning driver's licenses or birth certificates due to them not living full time. They do not need housing protections, employment protections nor do they need transsexual specific healthcare to the exception of part timer's moving towards transition thus making your statement incorrect.

You tell me and the rest of us here how a gender marker change on a drivers license for a cross dresser or part timer makes logical sense to you.

It is a constant battle to downplay public image that the general public has of transsexual and Intersexed people due to their perceptions by the public of these groups being a party of perversion of men in dresses.

I've said this many times here and I'm quite sure that I'll say it many times over that transsexual and Intersexed people have little to anything in common with the transgender umbrella thus will not be included under it.

Julie, you are absolutely correct in your post. I for one must apologize to you specifically. I have not taken into consideration in any of my posts to this thread, the concerns specific to anyone that identifies as intersexed. I will however, adjust my memory banks to ensure when replying to a post anywhere, I do not forget the intersexed people. How terrible of me, again, my apologies.

max

06-10-2012, 07:40 AM

Part timers, cross dresser's along with other transgender subsets ..,do not need housing protections, employment protections nor do they need transsexual specific healthcare to the exception of part timer's moving towards transition thus making your statement incorrect.

They don't? I'd swear that it seemed as though the potential effects on employment prospects was a major consideration for many cross dressers on being "out"... I think I even read a post here where somebody was fired for underdressing, and more where it was considered the likely reason for dismissal.

Marleena

06-10-2012, 08:02 AM

Kathryn Martin

06-10-2012, 08:11 AM

I think the CDs who do so for a sexual excitement and the ones who do it purely because it relaxes them do not belong under the transgendered umbrella. Otherwise, I suspect that most CDs have some internal struggle between male and female

And what makes you believe that they are not worthy of the protections that the umbrella brings. Do you really believe that being inflicted by a condition that requires you to identify crossgender to obtain sexual gratification is less distressing than other forms of gender variance?

I would also like you to explain on what basis you consider transsexualism simply an intensification of cross gender identification, when in fact transsexuals do not have cross gender identification at the root of their condition.

And your blanket statement that many TS go stealth and that they don`t go on tv or testify before legislative bodies is simply too broad. And, not quite correct.

Kaitlyn Michele

06-10-2012, 08:14 AM

Everybody on earth needs "rights",,its an easy conversation...how can i not support your rights??

Julie is talking about specific things..this is where it really matters... and when people that are talking generally communicate with people talking specifics...there is no way for it to be effective...

its like when politicians say they are "working for us"...what the heck does that mean??
that's why they often name a specific person and talk about how that specific person is being helped by some policy..

A crossdresser that underdresses , and gets fired for underdressing sounds like a fool to me... what did he do? show off his panty hose or panties?? even if he got caught by accident its a silly situation... if you need to crossdress while you go house hunting, your problem is not your "rights" its your priorities..

The showoff underdressers theoritical right to do that is totally at odds with my rights ...because if i get lumped in with him..i am much less likely to get broad support for the types of medical and legal protections I need...this is how generalities run aground when you talk specifics..

it also strikes me as hypocritical that so many crossdressers separate themselves from the "fetish" dressers but rail against a transsexual that doesn't feel they identify as a transgender person...if its really important to you have a name for yourself, that you own and live by, then i clearly have that same right..it makes no sense that a person can complain about how another "labels" them, but has no problem labeling other people...this is why its such a crazy conversation and keeping it simple is the most effective way to talk about it...

You either transition or you don't...thats the most workable line...we live, work, and play...we don't walk around talking about lines and explaining how we self identify to people..
That's how the world looks at it, that's how the world will treat you...and that's how you will experience your gender problem...

is it possible for you and me to support each other's "rights" while disagreeing with some of the specifics of it?? that's perhaps where the most meaningful conversation can take place...

Kathryn Martin

06-10-2012, 08:21 AM

is it possible for you and me to support each other's "rights" while disagreeing with some of the specifics of it?? that's perhaps where the most meaningful conversation can take place...

You are so right in this. As I said I draw the line when sex and gender are conflated and my transition is characterized as a lifestyle choice. Do I support gender variant persons? Absolutely, and not just in words ........

Sandra1746

06-10-2012, 08:52 AM

Just a question I do not have an answer to.

How would you classify an XY genotype (aka male) with complete androgen insensitivity?

They are not intersex; no female organs like ovaries or uterus and a "vagina" that is usually a short blind pouch. They have internal testes and produce testosterone that is converted to estrogen via aromatase.

The external appearance is "female" and they are usually raised as such until they fail to enter puberty. They develop breasts and have a feminine body shape but no pubic hair. There are other characteristics too but you can look them up if you care. It is widely suspected that some of the "female supermodels" are really in this group.

Lines and classification is certainly not a simple linear scale. More like a multidimensional matrix...

We should be inclusive, not divisive,
Sandra1746

jillleanne

06-10-2012, 09:03 AM

Ok Bree, the following is where I draw my lines. Just to be clear, I have never agreed with labels for the very reason they cannot satisfy everyone or every situation. I am now putting up my shields, my defences are ready so anyone can now fire away at me at will. I suspect I will need all the defences I can get on this one. Just so you all know, regardless of how you feel about the following, I respect your opinions, feeling and understand completely if you do not agree. Remember, this is my current opinion and that could change with some reasonable and rational replies/opinions.

THERE ARE TWO COMMUNITIES OF GENDER OF CONCERN WITHIN: 1. Transgender
2. Transexual

1. The community of Transgenders represents everyone that DOES NOT identify as Cisgender, Transexual or Intersexed, Pre-op, or Post-op individuals.
a. If you express yourself in private or public activities that are considered opposite to your birth gender, you belong here.
b. If you wear clothing normally associated with your opposite birth gender solely for sexual gratification(fetish purposes), or for professional occupations
( Drag Queens ) you DO NOT belong here.
c. If you hide clothing or withhold information from people you are acquainted with, you belong here( notwithstanding 'b' above).

2. The community of Transexuals represents anyone that identifies as being of the opposite gender to which they were born. This includes anyone that identifies as pre-op, possibly some non-op, the key being, born the wrong gender. It includes anyone living or needing to live full time as the opposite birth gender but have not transitioned. It includes anyone that NEEDS to change their gender marker, driver licence, etc. I will also include, for lack of better understanding but at the risk of being correct, anyone that considers themsleves intersexed. It may well be the concensus among those identifying as intersexed they fall within a complete and separate community. I suspect however, their specific needs align closely to anyone identifying as TS. Jump right in and correct me if I am wrong here and I thank you for that

If you are post-op and living fulltime as the opposite gender to which you were born, you are not considered TG nor TS. You are considered belonging to the communities of either male or female.

So there you have my take on it. Two communities and only two. For very different reasons. In some cases the needs of both communities are identical and in other cases they are not. BOTH communities do however, have a primary reason to support the needs of each other in an positive manner. Many individuals who currently consider themselves as transgender may at a future date identify withh transexual. Therefore it is of the utmost importance both communities recognize and accept the umbilical bond we share with each other. Both communities for example, share the need for rights against violence, employment protection rights, etc. whereas the needs from a health prospective, etc. are quite different.

So after all the ramblings here, what is it all really about? It's about trying to come to some sort of agreement/understanding/recognition that will ultimately allow us all to be better understood and accepted by ourselves, and more importantly, by society, political leaders, and the medical world so that the needs of both communities can be identified and addressed properly. The old saying, "KISS" ( keep it simple stupid) will allow for quicker, clearer, communication.
"
My lines are drawn. "Scotty, full speed ahead.", "Shields up Mr. Sulu!", " Lt. Uhura, see if you can communicate with that ship!!" Let's all be ready!

Julia_in_Pa

06-10-2012, 09:30 AM

Why Max? Explain to me how being out to your employer as a cross dresser has anything to do with a transitioning or tranistioned TS or IS person.

I fully agree with Kaitlyn when she said that a cross dresser that under dresses , and gets fired for underdressing sounds like a fool to her.
This person sounds like a fool to me as well.

Was this person showing what he had on underneath his clothing to his co workers? It sounds like the company had every right to fire him.

Max, what are you talking about when you said that potential effects on employment prospects was a major consideration for many cross dressers for being out?
Why would cross dressers even be concerned about employment issues concerning the act of cross dressing?

As long as there is duality concerning gender presentation concerning a person, that person has the luxury of switching back to their male personae in order to facilitate legal cooperation concerning employment, housing and medical care.

Transitioned TS and IS people do not have this luxury. It is a 24-7 365 day a year situation.

Your post is strange in it's content and illogical in it's premise.

Julia

They don't? I'd swear that it seemed as though the potential effects on employment prospects was a major consideration for many cross dressers on being "out"... I think I even read a post here where somebody was fired for underdressing, and more where it was considered the likely reason for dismissal.

Babeba

06-10-2012, 10:34 AM

@Marleena: If you are refering to my post, I'm certainly not "shooting the messenger". I realize that in this community, we all have different needs. I've spent my life genderless. I don't have a penis. I don't have a vagina either.

For almost 40 years, I've been told that I'm not a man because I don't have a penis, and I'm not a woman because I don't have a vagina. Where does that leave me? Am I even human by societal standards?

This society tells us that we must occupy one gender slot or the other. It's demanded from us, and up to now, has no room for something "in-between".

This bothers me. I don't ask to see other women's vaginas as proof they are women, do you? Mind you, there are enough visible male and female secondary sexual characteristics to make the identification of someone as male or female more difficult for tricky trans-related cases.

Personally, I am more of a lumper than a splitter. I would classify everyone on this site as all part of the trans- community, including cisgendered members who are here as friends, children, parents, partners and prospects (looking for a CD/TG/TS partner). I kind of even find it absurd that there is a thread on a forum called crossdressers.com debating the validity of including people who cross dress in with a wider community.

Underdressed in the workplace? I can understand that. For many people, that little expression of inner selves is symbolic of their own identity (girly on the inside) or can help relieve the compulsion to dress as one gets through their day. I firmly believe in the power of sexy underwear as a pick-me-up and secret weapon in increasing confidence for ciswomen, and definitely for anyone part of the transgendered community in any way as well. I can also understand bending over and having one's belt shift, or someone clapping a coworker on the shoulder and feeling a strap there... Lots of ways that can be exposed accidentally. And if THIS board can dismiss underdressing as not being truly transgender enough, as being fetishistic, then what is an employer supposed to think?

ColleenA

06-10-2012, 11:32 AM

How would you classify an XY genotype (aka male) with complete androgen insensitivity? They are not intersex; no female organs like ovaries or uterus ... The external appearance is "female" ...

Lines and classification is certainly not a simple linear scale. More like a multidimensional matrix... We should be inclusive, not divisive,

Actually, there are many situations classified as intersex, and androgen insensitivity (complete or partial) is among them.

Simply having XY genes does not make a person male. Those who are androgen insensitive do not develop a fully functioning reproductive system. Thus they are "less than" male (I apologize for the very poor phrasing). Some will consider themselves between male and female (i.e. intersex). Others will not insert "female" (the binary complement to "male") in their view, but consider themselves asexual.

I believe the person should have the right to determine their own identity. I too fear we try to classify too much.

ReineD

06-10-2012, 11:55 AM

Most attempts to classify this type of thing resemble a grey scale. You have two extremes. At one end you have light crossdressing, like underdressing. at the other end you have the full transition, living 24/7 as the opposite gender.

Like this? http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?174972-Labels-The-Black-Hole-between-CD-and-TS.&p=2853849&viewfull=1#post2853849

(ignore the tongue-in-cheek comment at the bottom of my post)

Harry Benjamin defined 6 levels of trans. There are overlaps and points in between the levels, not one level will describe anyone to a "T" (pun intended :)). Also, sexual preference may vary considerably from Benjamin's theory, although I believe he just proposed a sexual preference range as a guideline perhaps.

EDIT - FYI:
Benjamin Scale: http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg
Kinsey Scale: http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/KINS-774322.GIF

TerryTerri

06-10-2012, 12:49 PM

Here's my 2 cents. My personal opinion, which doesn't really account for much, is that TG, TS, CD are all under the same umbrella. Our current society is still kinda stuck in the binary gender mindset for the most part. It is the society accepted thing that a male has male parts, thinks like males (even though there is a wide spectrum of what that means) and doesn't wish to be female. And, females have female parts, thinks like females (once again a wide spectrum does exist) and doesn't wish to be a male. So, ANYONE in society that doesn't conform to that basic dogma is a gender varient of some kind and that is what defines "the umbrella"

However, what I REALLY wanted to suggest isn't about my opinion. I think that the third tradition of AA has THE relavent principle here. The tradition is that the only requirement for membership in AA is the desire to stop drinking. There is no EXTERNAL requirement, a person is the deciding factor if they say they belong and have a desire, then they are a member of AA. In AA's history are many rich tales of early groups trying all sorts of membership requirements and rules to help the group to survive and to help the group grow, etc. In practice these ALL failed and with the clearing of the dust from the calamity the wisdom of the third tradition was conclusively shown. This tradition was officially adopted by the fellowship of AA in 1955 when membership was around 1/2 a million worldwide. Today AA has several million members, is in almost every country and continues to grow and reach alcoholics who need help. The liberal ideal of needing any requirement to elong other than wanting to has, in reality, shown to be the best solution.

The only other thing I wanted to point out is that it is possibly a fear based reason behind trying to exclude TS from TG from CD. I will admit that TS, TG and CD folks have different issues to contend with concerning gender conflict with our accepted society binary gender framework.

MC-lite

06-10-2012, 12:57 PM

This bothers me. I don't ask to see other women's vaginas as proof they are women, do you? Mind you, there are enough visible male and female secondary sexual characteristics to make the identification of someone as male or female more difficult for tricky trans-related cases.

Personally, I am more of a lumper than a splitter. I would classify everyone on this site as all part of the trans- community, including cisgendered members who are here as friends, children, parents, partners and prospects (looking for a CD/TG/TS partner). I kind of even find it absurd that there is a thread on a forum called crossdressers.com debating the validity of including people who cross dress in with a wider community.

Underdressed in the workplace? I can understand that. For many people, that little expression of inner selves is symbolic of their own identity (girly on the inside) or can help relieve the compulsion to dress as one gets through their day. I firmly believe in the power of sexy underwear as a pick-me-up and secret weapon in increasing confidence for ciswomen, and definitely for anyone part of the transgendered community in any way as well. I can also understand bending over and having one's belt shift, or someone clapping a coworker on the shoulder and feeling a strap there... Lots of ways that can be exposed accidentally. And if THIS board can dismiss underdressing as not being truly transgender enough, as being fetishistic, then what is an employer supposed to think?

@babeba: You're different because you're intellegent and compassionate. Most people are not.

(When I say "you", I mean metaphoricly you, not specifically "you") Not consciously, but your subconscious mind does. The first place a mans eyes go to on a woman is her breasts and crotch. I'm not making this up; it's human nature. It's happened to me. The same phenomina happens with a woman. They look at a man's package, and butt. They also look at other things, but that's the two main places that they admit to looking at. If a guy doesn't match some unknown criteria, they won't even talk to him or acknowledge him.

Imagine what happens if a "woman" has a bit of a bulge down there.A "red flag" goes up in the looker's mind. You get the same reaction if there's a mismatch between the face and the body.

All of these things can create embarassing situations for us, and can also create a dangerous situation.

Whether we like it or not, we are judged by our genetalia in this society.
Teen boys judge each other in the locker room. Any place where even an outline of your private parts shows causes you to be judged. Beaches, pools, the list goes on. Even women get affronted with it. Cameltoe hunts are rampant on the web, complete with pics and smart remarks.

I don't like it. Sometimes, I'd like to ask people "what the **** are you looking at?", but I know that they're trying to figure out if I'm a boy or a girl. People have to compartmentalize, and like to simplify things.

The brutal truth is that society has three labels for us; Guy, Girl, and somewhere in between. Most are not smart enough to figure out the truth. Many of them don't even care. We're just something for them to make fun of or talk about, or put on some TV show.

And how are they (society at large) supposed to figure it out if we can't even decide on what we are? We don't even have a unified front. If three criminals get picked up by the cops, they'll usually be released if they have the same story.

We don't have the same story.

As far as "underdressing" goes, how many people actually do it for the added thrill of possibly getting caught? And at the workplace? That's just asking for trouble.

If you do that in front of women, chances are, you're going to get caught. Women have a sharper eye than men do. especially where fashion and clothing are concerned. They don't even have to touch you to see the outline of a bra strap or the band of a pair of panties sticking out above your waistline.

Then what? Are you going to cry foul because you were caught? If you're fired, are you going to sue your employer? And what happens if your fellow employees mess with you? Are you going to cry to your supervisor?

If I was an employer, I wouldn't want to hire you. Why would I want to bring that kind of drama to my workplace?

And where does that leave the full-time transsexual that needs a job, so that s/he can pay for medical care and surgery?

And therein lies the problem. We have crossdressers making the lives of Transsexuals more difficult. Crossdressers are all over Mainstream Media. Rupals drag race, Jerry Springer, etc.

People see them and don't take GID or transsexuals serious.

And who suffers because of that? TSes do.

ReineD

06-10-2012, 01:50 PM

And therein lies the problem. We have crossdressers making the lives of Transsexuals more difficult. Crossdressers are all over Mainstream Media. Rupals drag race, Jerry Springer, etc.

People see them and don't take GID or transsexuals serious.

And who suffers because of that? TSes do.

*some crossdressers*. I just wanted to clarify this. There are many CDers like my SO (although she identifies as dualgender) who look no different than TSs. The difference might be a general softening of the skin as the result of HRT, but then HRT does not soften everyone's appearance equally especially if they are late onset TSs. Also, not every TS has had FFS. My SO belongs to a TG support group and the vast majority of people present themselves very well. I've no idea who has had SRS, who is living full time, vs. who dresses only on a regular basis.

As to the more, shall we say, flamboyant CDers out there, I think that forums like this one help and also it is a process for some people. In the beginning they might go for the platinum wigs and mini skirts, but eventually they do learn the difference between positive vs. negative notice out in the mainstream. And the CDers for whom this is a kinky thing and they have no plans to get rid of the platinum wig and 5 inch heels I gather mostly limit their excursions (if they go out) to TG friendly places such as nightclubs.

I don't think I've ever seen a drag-queen looking CDer while out and about.

As to the media, it is true that drag-queen looking CDers are sensationalized, but there are also many stories of transsexuals in the news who have successfully transitioned and are accepted, or who are negatively treated due to societal bias.

Julia_in_Pa

06-10-2012, 01:59 PM

Whereas I find your apology sincere there is nothing to apologize for Jill.
No offense was taken. :)

Julia

Julie, you are absolutely correct in your post. I for one must apologize to you specifically. I have not taken into consideration in any of my posts to this thread, the concerns specific to anyone that identifies as intersexed. I will however, adjust my memory banks to ensure when replying to a post anywhere, I do not forget the intersexed people. How terrible of me, again, my apologies.

TxKimberly

06-10-2012, 02:07 PM

. . . Your circular logic concerning transsexual people going stealth after transition thus the reason why the rest of the transgender umbrella has fought and must fight for advances is incorrect. . .

I think that you are putting words into Sally's mouth. Sally stated her opinion that many TS's will go stealth after going full time.
She also pointed out that many cross dressers, many of whom have GID but will not or can not transition, have contributed to making the world a better place for us.
She did not say or imply that the two were subjects were related.

Sally24

06-10-2012, 02:14 PM

If I was an employer, I wouldn't want to hire you. Why would I want to bring that kind of drama to my workplace?

And where does that leave the full-time transsexual that needs a job, so that s/he can pay for medical care and surgery?

And therein lies the problem. We have crossdressers making the lives of Transsexuals more difficult. Crossdressers are all over Mainstream Media. Rupals drag race, Jerry Springer, etc.

People see them and don't take GID or transsexuals serious.

And who suffers because of that? TSes do.

I knew this was going to degenerate into "Who has it worse" scenario! Trying to separate from the TG umbrella because you think things will work better for you is at least more valid than just saying that your have nothing in common with us. But let's make this clear, we all have pain and problems. Trying to blame others for your problems and thinking you have it worse then them doesn't make it so and doesn't make for constructive discussions.

Why Max? Explain to me how being out to your employer as a cross dresser has anything to do with a transitioning or tranistioned TS or IS person.
Max, what are you talking about when you said that potential effects on employment prospects was a major consideration for many cross dressers for being out?
Why would cross dressers even be concerned about employment issues concerning the act of cross dressing?
Your post is strange in it's content and illogical in it's premise.
Julia
Tunnel vision is handy when your so sure of your opinion. As you've stated you never put female clothing on before transitioning then you apparently know nothing about CDing. According to your own rules you probably shouldn't be discussing something you know nothing about. My best friend doesn't qualify as transexual by your standards but lives much her life as a woman. She has lost 2 jobs because she is OUT in the community and has been unemployed for over 3 years. Just the knowledge that you are TG is enough for employers to not want you around anymore. And if you've ever testified in behalf of Trans Legislation then you know that there are many that come testify that are not even trans. They don't dress in very feminine or very masculine manners and have employment issues because of that. Employers want them to "man up" or wear a dress and makeup to help the company image. People don't need to see your underwear or your private parts to discriminate against you in the workplace.

1. And what makes you believe that they are not worthy of the protections that the umbrella brings. Do you really believe that being inflicted by a condition that requires you to identify crossgender to obtain sexual gratification is less distressing than other forms of gender variance?

2. I would also like you to explain on what basis you consider transsexualism simply an intensification of cross gender identification, when in fact transsexuals do not have cross gender identification at the root of their condition.

3. And your blanket statement that many TS go stealth and that they don`t go on tv or testify before legislative bodies is simply too broad. And, not quite correct.

1. I didn't say they didn't deserve some protection, but we are talking gender here, not sex. The fetish dressers I have met have no crossgender identification. They dress for the thrill of the clothes and the sexual release.

2. I don't understand this statement at all. If you go with the "woman in a man's body" that is the epitome of crossgender identification. You are born male and completely identify yourself as a woman.

3. Most everyone's statements here are blanket statements. I think you'd be hard pressed to deny that "many" transsexuals go stealth or low profile. Low profile people do not go on TV or they would not quality as being low profile. I didn't say that TS people didn't appear in public and make statements on TV, just that many of the TS population did not take part in that kind of support because they were trying to stay out of the lime light.

If you all want to start another thread to discuss how TS and TG differ fine. But this discussion was supposed to be about whether to allow a CD presence in a Transsexual support group.

emmicd

06-10-2012, 02:32 PM

I believe that how we express our selves in dress and how we feel inside are key to how we identify. I believe your question is not so simple. I am inclined to say that once you feel the need to dress you have clearly crossed a barrier where your gender identity comes into question. i remember at one time i felt i was just a crossdresser but after deep soul searching and a key awareness of my gender dysphoria i realized my crossdressing was much more a need for my transgender feelings. I feel we should be open to the crossdresser, the tg, the ts and the ones closest to them and not try to impose barriers. we should embrace all and i feel we have to clearly include them all as part of the tg community.

we need to accept all as they are.

emmi

MC-lite

06-10-2012, 03:13 PM

I knew this was going to degenerate into "Who has it worse" scenario! Trying to separate from the TG umbrella because you think things will work better for you is at least more valid than just saying that your have nothing in common with us. But let's make this clear, we all have pain and problems. Trying to blame others for your problems and thinking you have it worse then them doesn't make it so and doesn't make for constructive discussions.

Unfortunately, this is how the average person sees it. We have knowledge and understanding because we live it. They don't. They only see the negative effects at the workplace, or the drama on Television and equate that to -all- of us.

As far as seperating from the "umbrella", I can't. Society has already lumped me into its' own take on what we are. for better or for worse. And like it or not, I have to fight for your rights as well as my own, because in the eyes of society, We're the same.

Just the knowledge that you are TG is enough for employers to not want you around anymore.
And whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the TS or the fault of the CD? Somebody is to blame here. Is it both of us for publicising it for the sake of being accepted? And am I wrong for wanting to distance my self from it, just so I can live some semblance of a peaceful life?

We can discuss this till we're blue in the face. The truth is, unless society at large starts accepting us (or they're forced to accept us) nothing will change.

We are abnormal in the eyes of society. I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but it's how they see us. I see it and feel it every day. I hear people talk about it on the streets. And they don't have nice things to say, that's for sure.

Oh, and I -do- have it worse than most of you. I don't have a penis, nor do I have a vagina. I've been forced to straddle the line between genders for most of my life. On top of that, I suffer from GID.

So, where does that put me in grand scheme of things?

ReineD

06-10-2012, 03:33 PM

Oh, and I -do- have it worse than most of you. I don't have a penis, nor do I have a vagina. I've been forced to straddle the line between genders for most of my life. On top of that, I suffer from GID.

It can't be said enough. It's not easy being intersex, or inter-gender (I'm putting it this way to make the comparison), or both, and/or having gender dysphoria.

It really serves no good to get into discussions about who has it worse or who belongs in what grouping. The best we can do is to define a half dozen or more parameters (see the links in post #82) and allow people to determine where they fit (give or take minor variances). It would help if we named each category separately and if everyone agreed with the terms used. Also, Harry Benjamin's scale did not consider intersex and doing this would add another dimension.

MC-lite

06-10-2012, 03:40 PM

@ReineD: I agree. And it wasn't meant that way. My statements were not "woe is me" statements. They were meant to reflect how society in general sees us (from My perspective, i.e. what I see and hear on the streets.). And they do not see us in a good light. With that said, can you blame anybody who wants to distance themselves from this?

Rebecca Star

06-10-2012, 03:40 PM

Rebecca Star uses the term "crossdresser" to describe herself.

I use CD because I'd rather that term to Transvestite. Maybe I'm ignorant to it's true meaning, but to me it's riddled with negative connotation.

As a forum which deals with supporting a broad spectrum of, can I say transgender folk?, it would be nice to have some form of universal term. While I don't want to come across as saying people should be pigeon holed, I do think if we are going to progress in enlightening those in the mainstream of society, there has to be some fundamental identification to start from which people who are not in the loop can easily grasp and hopefully understand.

Not that long ago being gay was an issue.
I think the same will be for the transgender community too.

This is where some of you may see me as a crack pot...but that's ok :)

We're moving into a different time and head space and the industrial age which once governed our actions and dictated societies thoughts, is now coming to an end. One only has to look around to see people are not happy with the current status quo in which we’re told to live. People are starting to question the rules. And this doubting of what's been laid down and acted upon for many, many centuries is now coming under scrutinisation; people are not happy complying just because their told to, they want answers to their questions.

With regard to transgender folk, one only has to look at the attitudes of the young generation, who, most seem to hold at least an understanding of and in a lot of instances acceptance that not everyone is either A or B.

What if the Mayan calendar prediction is not the end of the world as some believe but the end of the industrial period of the world. And the proceeding centuries will evolve into people valuing not what someone does to make money but what they do as individual to contribute to the betterment of society...

Ok, that was a bit of side track. My point is, I think we're entering a time when society is willing to start listening. But I think we could do ourselves a lot of favours by making it easy to understand to the person in the street.

My 2 cents. Now I'm out here before you reach for the net :)

ColleenA

06-10-2012, 03:46 PM

For the record, I just want to point out, Bree, that you never did tell us what color panties you are wearing. :waiting:

ReineD

06-10-2012, 03:50 PM

I use CD because I'd rather that term to Transvestite. Maybe I'm ignorant to it's true meaning, but to me it's riddled with negative connotation.

Rebecca, please don't get me wrong. This was not a criticism. :) Also, in North America we tend to use CD, whereas TV is more widely used in research and overseas.

I was rather saying there are many people who feel, gender-wise, just like you but who choose different words to identify themselves, and this is what makes having these discussions so difficult. Or, there are people who are not TS, and there are TSs, who both identify as TG.

It is best to use a scale such as Harry Benjamin's (perhaps updated), and use different words that everyone agrees with, to name each level where people might be.

The difficulty would be in getting people to agree on the terms more than defining whether the various categories of trans are accurate or not.

Rebecca Star

06-10-2012, 04:01 PM

Rebecca, please don't get me wrong. This was not a criticism. :)

Sorry if your felt I may have. I didn't take anything you said as criticism :hugs:

I don't know you that well, but I think I know you well enough, to know you wouldn't do that. (try saying that 3x fast).

Kathryn Martin

06-10-2012, 05:02 PM

If you go with the "woman in a man's body" that is the epitome of crossgender identification. You are born male and completely identify yourself as a woman.

If you equate sex with gender it is indeed. I was born female but in a male body. I corrected my body to be congruent with my gender. How is that cross-gender identification?

Julia_in_Pa

06-12-2012, 07:53 AM

Tunnel vision is handy when your so sure of your opinion. As you've stated you never put female clothing on before transitioning then you apparently know nothing about CDing. According to your own rules you probably shouldn't be discussing something you know nothing about. My best friend doesn't qualify as transexual by your standards but lives much her life as a woman. She has lost 2 jobs because she is OUT in the community and has been unemployed for over 3 years. Just the knowledge that you are TG is enough for employers to not want you around anymore. And if you've ever testified in behalf of Trans Legislation then you know that there are many that come testify that are not even trans. They don't dress in very feminine or very masculine manners and have employment issues because of that. Employers want them to "man up" or wear a dress and makeup to help the company image. People don't need to see your underwear or your private parts to discriminate against you in the workplace.

I testified in Harrisburg, PA on behalf of transitioned TS and IS people that were being discriminated against because their drivers license stated one gender when their presentation full time was the opposite of what their drivers license indicated.

Sally, please explain to me how a cross dresser or any one else who dresses part time and presents a duality in gender presentation benefits from a binary driver's license change to either male or female?

My testimony and work in Harrisburg had absolutely nothing to do with gender variant people. It had everything to do with TS and IS people that changed binary genders from one to the other and stayed there.

Outing yourself either by mistake or purposely as anything other than a transitioning or transitioned person is both dangerous and fool hearty.
If your friend has purposely outed herself as anything other than full time then I'm sorry but she is experiencing exactly what she should be experiencing in a society that has yet to catch up with progress.
Outing ones self isn't a game, it isn't pink fog and it isn't a giant closet, it's reality and it has pitfalls and possible major consequences for even the most stealthy TS or IS person let alone a part timer.

If someone is pushing gender boundaries at work without officially declaring transition to that company then that company has every right to discipline up to and including firing a person for such.
If that person is presenting as male and is wearing eyeliner or under dressing and someone notices this it most likely would be against dress code.
A person that does not subscribe to a gender binary within the context and framework of a company's HR policy then that person deserves to be reprimanded.
Sally, explain to me how as someone presenting as male would dress in an androgynous fashion without wearing clothing of the opposite sex.
Genetic women wear mens pants and shirts and have no issues doing such.
If a genetic woman is transitioning then " he" needs to declare that to " his " companies HR dept.
The same with a transitioning MTF.
If a man presenting in anything other than male attire for work is reprimanded for such then that person deserves such for breaking company policy.
This is not a gender fluid society and I for one am happy about that fact.

Julia

jillleanne

06-12-2012, 08:29 AM

Outing yourself either by mistake or purposely as anything other than a transitioning or transitioned person is both dangerous and fool hearty.

If someone is pushing gender boundaries at work without officially declaring transition to that company then that company has every right to discipline up to and including firing a person for such.
.........
If a genetic woman is transitioning then " he" needs to declare that to " his " companies HR dept.
The same with a transitioning MTF.

Case in point: I have a pre-op TS friend in Florida who was fired as a consequence of notifying her boss that she( he at the time) intended to come to work as of such and such a date as female but would from that day forward, be female 24/7. At the time prior to the announcement, she presented as male at work. It was said to her the others employees could not handle this announcement and that in the bosses opinion, complications within the work enviroment would inevitably come to light, complications that might cause hatred and bigotry to rear their ugly faces against her. For the good of the business, she was to leave. Although the outcome was not positive, nontheless, she advised the employer ahead of time hoping for positive results.
Eventually, she applied at a local Walmart as a female, transitioned, and sucessfully got the position of customer service manager. Life is getter better for her every day.

*Vanessa*

06-12-2012, 12:03 PM

Absolutely worth a re-read!
Agreement = 100%

Ok Bree, the following is where I draw my lines. Just to be clear, I have never agreed with labels for the very reason they cannot satisfy everyone or every situation. I am now putting up my shields, my defences are ready so anyone can now fire away at me at will. I suspect I will need all the defences I can get on this one. Just so you all know, regardless of how you feel about the following, I respect your opinions, feeling and understand completely if you do not agree. Remember, this is my current opinion and that could change with some reasonable and rational replies/opinions.

THERE ARE TWO COMMUNITIES OF GENDER OF CONCERN WITHIN: 1. Transgender
2. Transexual

1. The community of Transgenders represents everyone that DOES NOT identify as Cisgender, Transexual or Intersexed, Pre-op, or Post-op individuals.
a. If you express yourself in private or public activities that are considered opposite to your birth gender, you belong here.
b. If you wear clothing normally associated with your opposite birth gender solely for sexual gratification(fetish purposes), or for professional occupations
( Drag Queens ) you DO NOT belong here.
c. If you hide clothing or withhold information from people you are acquainted with, you belong here( notwithstanding 'b' above).

2. The community of Transexuals represents anyone that identifies as being of the opposite gender to which they were born. This includes anyone that identifies as pre-op, possibly some non-op, the key being, born the wrong gender. It includes anyone living or needing to live full time as the opposite birth gender but have not transitioned. It includes anyone that NEEDS to change their gender marker, driver licence, etc. I will also include, for lack of better understanding but at the risk of being correct, anyone that considers themsleves intersexed. It may well be the concensus among those identifying as intersexed they fall within a complete and separate community. I suspect however, their specific needs align closely to anyone identifying as TS. Jump right in and correct me if I am wrong here and I thank you for that

If you are post-op and living fulltime as the opposite gender to which you were born, you are not considered TG nor TS. You are considered belonging to the communities of either male or female.

So there you have my take on it. Two communities and only two. For very different reasons. In some cases the needs of both communities are identical and in other cases they are not. BOTH communities do however, have a primary reason to support the needs of each other in an positive manner. Many individuals who currently consider themselves as transgender may at a future date identify withh transexual. Therefore it is of the utmost importance both communities recognize and accept the umbilical bond we share with each other. Both communities for example, share the need for rights against violence, employment protection rights, etc. whereas the needs from a health prospective, etc. are quite different.

So after all the ramblings here, what is it all really about? It's about trying to come to some sort of agreement/understanding/recognition that will ultimately allow us all to be better understood and accepted by ourselves, and more importantly, by society, political leaders, and the medical world so that the needs of both communities can be identified and addressed properly. The old saying, "KISS" ( keep it simple stupid) will allow for quicker, clearer, communication.
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My lines are drawn. "Scotty, full speed ahead.", "Shields up Mr. Sulu!", " Lt. Uhura, see if you can communicate with that ship!!" Let's all be ready!